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實際上我們查的結果就是沒有改善啊感覺好像故宮對於侵權這個事情就是不重視好再來一個很快講一下上次有這也是後續的追蹤啦上次有"},{"start":552.91,"end":571.988,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":572.523,"end":573.824,"text":"二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":592.719,"end":616.747,"text":"目前來講的話資品人只有一個人可以修復上次你跟你提過那您提後來我們的結論是講說你要跟行政院去爭取人力嘛啊不曉得有去爭取了嗎呃我有跟那個人種那邊跟他們溝通那他們現在也在進行故宮的人力盤點那如果說短期沒有辦法的話因為我們會用基金的方式先行禁用所以說是指資品還是所有的各類的呃"},{"start":618.981,"end":647.247,"text":"當然是…當然是製品那製品的話基本上來講的話我們希望說找到一個類似的不是只會專修製品啦因為基本上來講的話他有一些人才的話如果他的那個修復的幅度比較廣況的話可以修復到其他的器物因為製品也不是製品他也有什麼馬腦啊有什麼東西上面所以這個部分的話我們會去找適當的人才增補OK好好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:33:53+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:33:56.390500+08:00","text":"麻煩請院長，謝謝。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T10:33:56.390500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:33:59.781000+08:00","text":"有請蕭院長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:33:59.781000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:34:03.171500+08:00","text":"葉委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:34:03.171500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:34:06.562000+08:00","text":"院長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:34:06.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:34:26.072000+08:00","text":"其實很多人都會有一個大哉問，就是我們的那些國寶、典藏品在故宮到底有沒有得到妥善的保存，而且到底有幾件，我先請教一下院長，你們最近一次清查院內所有的典藏品是什麼時候？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:34:29.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:34:33.076000+08:00","text":"是103年，依照博物館法的話，是20年進行一次總盤點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:34:33.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:34:33.536000+08:00","text":"所以是103年？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:34:33.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:34:34.576000+08:00","text":"10年前曾經清查過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:34:34.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:34:34.996000+08:00","text":"97到101年7月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:34:51.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:34:52.876000+08:00","text":"所以到底是哪一個？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:34:53.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:34:56.419000+08:00","text":"院長回答問題，你怎麼會給我一個錯誤的答案？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:34:56.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:34:59.802000+08:00","text":"我前面的那個印象是錯誤的，同仁給我的比較清楚。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:34:59.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:00.903000+08:00","text":"所以正確來講是什麼時候？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:02.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:02.825000+08:00","text":"97年到101年。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:06.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:13.555000+08:00","text":"101年清查過，然後按照博物館法應該20年內要再清查一次，所以下一次清查是121年以前完成，我這樣講有錯嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:16.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:17.907000+08:00","text":"理論上是這樣，沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:18.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:21.230000+08:00","text":"那請問一下，上次清查故宮典藏品總共有幾件？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:23.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:25.213000+08:00","text":"六十九萬多件，精確的數據的話可能要……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:25.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:26.093000+08:00","text":"六十九萬多件，是不是？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:26.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:27.735000+08:00","text":"後面的人員要不要提醒一下？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:30.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:34.400000+08:00","text":"因為現在的件數，就是歷年如果有捐贈會滾動，現在是69萬8,887件。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:34.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:35.120000+08:00","text":"六十九萬八，裡面有分幾種等級？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:35.120000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:42.196000+08:00","text":"如果依照文資法分等級的話，是國寶、重要古物跟一般古物。","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:42.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:42.196000+08:00","text":"國寶幾件？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:42.196000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:43.196000+08:00","text":"院長，我問的應該都是基本的，這應該不是故意為難你吧，你是故宮院長，我問你國寶幾件？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:43.196000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:44.196000+08:00","text":"你還答不出來，我的天啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:42.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:35:43.878000+08:00","text":"現在當院長要怎麼樣的人可以當？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:35:43.878000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:06.154000+08:00","text":"因為它一直在滾動增加。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:06.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:15.121000+08:00","text":"國寶在你們故宮博物院典藏應該是最重要的一件事情，結果我問你國寶幾件，這個對你來講，應該是太陽從東邊出來一樣的答案，你都答不出來，國寶幾件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:15.121000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:16.121000+08:00","text":"因為我要精確的數字。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:15.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:15.481000+08:00","text":"國寶幾件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:15.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:15.621000+08:00","text":"4萬9,003件。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:15.621000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:18.516500+08:00","text":"那下一個等級。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:18.516500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:21.412000+08:00","text":"重要古物的話是3萬5,858件。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:21.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:24.307500+08:00","text":"加起來大概多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:24.307500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:27.203000+08:00","text":"加起來的話是……算術不好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:27.203000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:30.098500+08:00","text":"這你根本不用去算好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:30.098500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:32.994000+08:00","text":"這你應該對答如流。好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:32.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:38.076000+08:00","text":"院長，我想問一下，你們清查這些國寶或重要古物，有外部稽核機制嗎？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:38.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:38.697000+08:00","text":"有，有外部委員參與。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:38.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:36:39.417000+08:00","text":"外部委員是怎麼稽核？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:36:58.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:00.247000+08:00","text":"外部委員參與盤點。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:01.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:01.427000+08:00","text":"怎麼參與？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:01.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:04.369000+08:00","text":"就每一次都要有兩位的外部委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:06.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:10.471000+08:00","text":"那兩位外部委員會重複嗎？不會？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:10.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:12.412000+08:00","text":"就是從頭到尾就是這兩個外部委員？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:12.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:13.712000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，委員，不可能。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:15.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:21.216000+08:00","text":"那我想問一下，除了外部委員參與清查之外，調查報告出來之後，還有一個外部稽查機制嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:22.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:32.373000+08:00","text":"譬如你們這份報告出來之後，你交給哪個外部單位，然後那個外部單位可以根據你的清查結果進行抽查，有這個機制嗎？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:32.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:33.654000+08:00","text":"我想過去應該沒有吧。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:33.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:34.254000+08:00","text":"沒有，對不對？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:34.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:35.995000+08:00","text":"未來我們一定會做。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:37.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:49.004000+08:00","text":"好，院長，這樣你們清查的結果，我覺得很難讓外界了解到這個清查是否詳實，所以是否可以增加一個外部稽查機制？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:49.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:50.826000+08:00","text":"就是把你們清查的調查報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:51.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:52.528000+08:00","text":"對，下次一定會。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:52.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:53.229000+08:00","text":"下次，怎麼做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:53.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:54.190000+08:00","text":"要怎麼做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:54.190000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:37:57.093000+08:00","text":"基本上來講……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:37:57.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:38:03.600000+08:00","text":"現在大家都有這樣的疑問，那我們可以怎麼去清查，現在可以怎麼藉由外部機制來抽查？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:38:04.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:38:15.558000+08:00","text":"我先講正常的稽查程序的話，正常的一個大盤點就是點檢，我們叫「點檢」，點檢就不只是看數量，而且看作品的狀況。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:38:16.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:38:23.724000+08:00","text":"基本上要有業務單位，有館方的人、2位外部委員，還要有政風，所以這是一個內部……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:38:23.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:38:26.006000+08:00","text":"沒有，我講的不是你們內部，我講的是外部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:38:26.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:38:36.318000+08:00","text":"外部機制的話，當然這個部分我們會研議，也許找一個所謂的公正單位，在整個盤點的過程裡面派員參與，因為不可能……","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:38:36.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:38:37.800000+08:00","text":"現在我們變成要等到121年……因為……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:38:38.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:38:47.870000+08:00","text":"但我就講了，我就說現在就有很多人，每一次只要有故宮的議題大家都在問，這些國寶、這些所謂你講的重要文物到底有沒有得到妥善保存？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:38:47.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:08.582000+08:00","text":"它會不會遺失了，我們不知道；到底有沒有掉了，我們不知道；到底有沒有破損了，我們不知道，到底有什麼外部的監理機制可以進入到這個系統裡面，讓大家可以知道其實這些國寶……我現在是善意的，讓這些國寶被大家知道有妥善地保存，有什麼樣的機制可以做到公開透明？","quality":0.991},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:08.582000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:12.300200+08:00","text":"博物館內部管理的話，當然外部的稽核機制，以目前來講，因為我過去在文化部，我知道是沒有，可是……","quality":0.075},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:12.300200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:16.018400+08:00","text":"沒有嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:16.018400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:19.736600+08:00","text":"對，我現在就在講怎麼樣可以有外部機制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:19.736600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:23.454800+08:00","text":"可是可以來建立這樣的一個機制。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:23.454800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:27.173000+08:00","text":"那我想問，在明年可不可以有這個外部機制出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:27.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:31.176000+08:00","text":"至少讓大家知道故宮的國寶現在被妥善保存，而且沒有遺失，可不可以？","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:31.176000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:32.557000+08:00","text":"因為現在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:32.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:33.998000+08:00","text":"明年前可不可以？可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:33.998000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:34.998000+08:00","text":"可以喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:34.998000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:35.998000+08:00","text":"那要怎麼做？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:34.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:46.788000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，就是大盤點，所謂20年一次的大盤點之外，我們在每一季，包括我自己、單位主管每一季都會抽點，抽點是用電腦隨機選件……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:47.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:48.829000+08:00","text":"院長，那還是屬於內部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:48.829000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:49.829000+08:00","text":"那是內部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:48.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:49.089000+08:00","text":"我現在是講外部。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:49.089000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:52.092250+08:00","text":"外部的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:52.092250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:55.095500+08:00","text":"這樣好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:55.095500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:39:58.098750+08:00","text":"我們現在的目標就是明年前可以建立一個外部機制，好不好？好。","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:39:58.098750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:01.102000+08:00","text":"那你幾個月內提一個你的想法給我，好不好？好……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:01.102000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:04.105250+08:00","text":"大概多久？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:04.105250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:07.108500+08:00","text":"這個部分我要評估，因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:07.108500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:10.111750+08:00","text":"你就提一個想法給我，大概什麼時候提出來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:10.111750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:13.115000+08:00","text":"3個月內。3個月？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:13.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:14.096000+08:00","text":"這個會期結束前，好不好？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:15.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:15.958000+08:00","text":"大概1月二十幾號前。好。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:16.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:20.543000+08:00","text":"提一個初步想法給我，我們把外部的監理機制建立起來。OK。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:20.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:22.064000+08:00","text":"因為太多人懷疑這件事情。好。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:22.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:32.715000+08:00","text":"接下來幾個細部的事情跟你討論，第一個，有關於解凍案，解凍案其中有一項是要處理圖檔的外流事件。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:34.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:40:54.983000+08:00","text":"在你們的後續改善措施這邊提到，112年3月17日曾經向淘寶網發出律師函，提出希望他們可以把那些打包圖檔下架的主張，這是你們的報告裡面所寫的；這邊又講確實有部分成效，因為部分商品已經下架。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:40:56.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:41:00.466000+08:00","text":"但問題在於那是112年3月做的，已經是一年多以前了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:41:00.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:41:16.975000+08:00","text":"那麼來看我們最近找到的資料，我這邊列出來的全部都是在淘寶上面的，有一些店家就是在做打包圖檔銷售工作，這部分在故宮的認定裡面，其實這個也不OK、是侵權。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:41:16.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:41:25.933000+08:00","text":"可是你們在112年3月那個時候跟淘寶主張之後，我不知道還有沒有動作，因為這些全部都在啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:41:25.933000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:41:34.891000+08:00","text":"譬如我這邊圈起來的一個叫八段錦古籍，它這個就是做圖檔打包的工作，這邊寫「买过的店」，為什麼會寫「买过的店」？","quality":0.239},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:41:34.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:41:44.360000+08:00","text":"因為我的助理在今年年初，應該是第一次我們質詢院長的時候，那時應該是3、4月，已經是半年前了，同樣的店，半年了還一直存在。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:41:44.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:41:51.947000+08:00","text":"代表這半年來，故宮對於要求淘寶下架、這一些所謂的侵權店家，沒有進行進一步的動作啊！","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:41:52.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:41:53.128000+08:00","text":"我想問，為什麼從112年3月之後就沒有再進一步的動作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:41:57.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:07.089000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，113年9月、10月、11月，我們都有跟那個……113年9月？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:07.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:09.812000+08:00","text":"所以112年3月之後就跳到113年9月？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:09.812000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:14.544000+08:00","text":"沒有……資料上面是這樣，我們……","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:14.544000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:19.276000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，現在還是做得沒有很好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:19.276000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:24.008000+08:00","text":"因為這全部都是在網站上、都存在的。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:24.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:28.740000+08:00","text":"圈起來的那一家店，從今年3月質詢你以來，到現在都還在，等於隔了8個月，中間都沒有什麼動作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:28.740000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:33.472000+08:00","text":"所以如果你們希望解凍的話，然後其中有一項，這是成效之一，那沒有達到成效啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:33.472000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:38.204000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實我們有動作，可是因為它下架，它又上去，就是反反覆覆，我們一直在處理，起碼每季都會處理。","quality":0.023},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:38.204000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:42.936000+08:00","text":"沒有，這個寫「买过的店」，就不是下架再上去，這就是同一家啦！","quality":0.292},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:42.936000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:47.668000+08:00","text":"這就是同一家！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:47.668000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:52.400000+08:00","text":"那我們就儘快……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:52.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:53.961000+08:00","text":"請你儘快，好不好？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:53.961000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:54.961000+08:00","text":"同仁請儘快處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:54.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:42:58.164000+08:00","text":"不然你這邊講你們已經改善了，實際上我們查的結果就是沒有改善啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:42:58.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:01.847000+08:00","text":"感覺好像故宮對於侵權這個事情就是不重視。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:01.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:05.650000+08:00","text":"再來很快地講一下，這也是後續追蹤，上次問過院長織品部分，你說是只有一個人力、很少。","quality":0.472},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:05.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:10.658625+08:00","text":"當時我問你織品的時候，你也不是很了解，其實你可以去看很多文獻，上面都有，你可以讀一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:10.658625+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:15.667250+08:00","text":"比如我們舉一個清朝的為例，這是清朝的其中一項織品，這個你認得出來嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:15.667250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:20.675875+08:00","text":"跟委員講，認不出來。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:20.675875+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:25.684500+08:00","text":"認不出來？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:25.684500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:30.693125+08:00","text":"因為我不是織品專業。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:30.693125+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:35.701750+08:00","text":"好，沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:35.701750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:40.710375+08:00","text":"你看他在修復的時候，他必須要透過顯微鏡，有的要放大65倍，有的要放大50倍，做非常細微的修復。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:40.710375+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:45.719000+08:00","text":"這個部分真的需要專門的人才，如果沒有專門人才沒有辦法做到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:45.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:54.082000+08:00","text":"可是目前來講，織品只有一個人可以修復，上次已經跟你提過，後來我們的結論是你要跟行政院爭取人力。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:54.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:43:56.262000+08:00","text":"不曉得有去爭取了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:43:56.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:44:02.104000+08:00","text":"我有跟人總那邊溝通，他們現在也在進行故宮的人力盤點。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:44:02.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:44:06.766000+08:00","text":"如果短期沒有辦法的話，我們會用基金的方式先行進用。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:44:08.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:44:09.727000+08:00","text":"是指織品還是所有各類的？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:44:11.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:44:13.741000+08:00","text":"當然是織品。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:44:15.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:44:35.106000+08:00","text":"織品的話基本上來講，我們希望找到一個類似的，不是只會專修織品，有一些人才，如果他修復的幅度比較廣泛的話，可以修復其他的器物，因為織品也只不是織品，還有瑪瑙或什麼東西在上面。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"蕭院長宗煌","start":"2024-12-04T10:44:35.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:44:39.167000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分我們會去找適當的人才、增補。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2024-12-04T10:44:40.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T10:44:40.247000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T10:44:40.747000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:44:42.747000+08:00","text":"謝謝葉元之委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T10:44:43.047000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T10:44:47.047000+08:00","text":"接下來我們有請羅廷瑋委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時34分）麻煩請院長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請蕭院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：院長好。其實很多人都會有一個大哉問，就是我們的那些國寶、典藏品在故宮到底有沒有得到妥善的保存，而且到底有幾件，我先請教一下院長，你們最近一次清查院內所有的典藏品是什麼時候？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是103年，依照博物館法的話，是20年進行一次總盤點。"],["葉委員元之：所以是103年？10年前曾經清查過？"],["蕭院長宗煌：97到101年7月。"],["葉委員元之：所以到底是哪一個？院長回答問題，你怎麼會給我一個錯誤的答案？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我前面的那個印象是錯誤的，同仁給我的比較清楚。"],["葉委員元之：所以正確來講是什麼時候？"],["蕭院長宗煌：97年到101年。"],["葉委員元之：101年清查過，然後按照博物館法應該20年內要再清查一次，所以下一次清查是121年以前完成，我這樣講有錯嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：理論上是這樣，沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：那請問一下，上次清查故宮典藏品總共有幾件？"],["蕭院長宗煌：六十九萬多件，精確的數據的話可能要……"],["葉委員元之：六十九萬多件，是不是？後面的人員要不要提醒一下？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為現在的件數，就是歷年如果有捐贈會滾動，現在是69萬8,887件。"],["葉委員元之：六十九萬八，裡面有分幾種等級？"],["蕭院長宗煌：如果依照文資法分等級的話，是國寶、重要古物跟一般古物。"],["葉委員元之：國寶幾件？院長，我問的應該都是基本的，這應該不是故意為難你吧，你是故宮院長，我問你國寶幾件？你還答不出來，我的天啊！現在當院長要怎麼樣的人可以當？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為它一直在滾動增加。"],["葉委員元之：國寶在你們故宮博物院典藏應該是最重要的一件事情，結果我問你國寶幾件，這個對你來講，應該是太陽從東邊出來一樣的答案，你都答不出來，國寶幾件？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為我要精確的數字。"],["葉委員元之：國寶幾件？"],["蕭院長宗煌：4萬9,003件。"],["葉委員元之：那下一個等級。"],["蕭院長宗煌：重要古物的話是3萬5,858件。"],["葉委員元之：加起來大概多少？"],["蕭院長宗煌：加起來的話是……算術不好。"],["葉委員元之：這你根本不用去算好不好？這你應該對答如流。好啦！院長，我想問一下，你們清查這些國寶或重要古物，有外部稽核機制嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：有，有外部委員參與。"],["葉委員元之：外部委員是怎麼稽核？"],["蕭院長宗煌：外部委員參與盤點。"],["葉委員元之：怎麼參與？"],["蕭院長宗煌：就每一次都要有兩位的外部委員。"],["葉委員元之：那兩位外部委員會重複嗎？不會？就是從頭到尾就是這兩個外部委員？"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有、沒有，委員，不可能。"],["葉委員元之：那我想問一下，除了外部委員參與清查之外，調查報告出來之後，還有一個外部稽查機制嗎？譬如你們這份報告出來之後，你交給哪個外部單位，然後那個外部單位可以根據你的清查結果進行抽查，有這個機制嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我想過去應該沒有吧。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：未來我們一定會做。"],["葉委員元之：好，院長，這樣你們清查的結果，我覺得很難讓外界了解到這個清查是否詳實，所以是否可以增加一個外部稽查機制？就是把你們清查的調查報告……"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，下次一定會。"],["葉委員元之：下次，怎麼做？要怎麼做？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本上來講……"],["葉委員元之：現在大家都有這樣的疑問，那我們可以怎麼去清查，現在可以怎麼藉由外部機制來抽查？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我先講正常的稽查程序的話，正常的一個大盤點就是點檢，我們叫「點檢」，點檢就不只是看數量，而且看作品的狀況。基本上要有業務單位，有館方的人、2位外部委員，還要有政風，所以這是一個內部……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我講的不是你們內部，我講的是外部。"],["蕭院長宗煌：外部機制的話，當然這個部分我們會研議，也許找一個所謂的公正單位，在整個盤點的過程裡面派員參與，因為不可能……"],["葉委員元之：現在我們變成要等到121年……"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為……"],["葉委員元之：但我就講了，我就說現在就有很多人，每一次只要有故宮的議題大家都在問，這些國寶、這些所謂你講的重要文物到底有沒有得到妥善保存？它會不會遺失了，我們不知道；到底有沒有掉了，我們不知道；到底有沒有破損了，我們不知道，到底有什麼外部的監理機制可以進入到這個系統裡面，讓大家可以知道其實這些國寶……我現在是善意的，讓這些國寶被大家知道有妥善地保存，有什麼樣的機制可以做到公開透明？"],["蕭院長宗煌：博物館內部管理的話，當然外部的稽核機制，以目前來講，因為我過去在文化部，我知道是沒有，可是……"],["葉委員元之：沒有嘛！對，我現在就在講怎麼樣可以有外部機制。"],["蕭院長宗煌：可是可以來建立這樣的一個機制。"],["葉委員元之：那我想問，在明年可不可以有這個外部機制出來？至少讓大家知道故宮的國寶現在被妥善保存，而且沒有遺失，可不可以？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為現在……"],["葉委員元之：明年前可不可以？"],["蕭院長宗煌：可以。"],["葉委員元之：可以喔！那要怎麼做？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我跟委員報告，就是大盤點，所謂20年一次的大盤點之外，我們在每一季，包括我自己、單位主管每一季都會抽點，抽點是用電腦隨機選件……"],["葉委員元之：院長，那還是屬於內部。"],["蕭院長宗煌：那是內部。"],["葉委員元之：我現在是講外部。"],["蕭院長宗煌：外部的部分……"],["葉委員元之：這樣好不好？我們現在的目標就是明年前可以建立一個外部機制，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。"],["葉委員元之：那你幾個月內提一個你的想法給我，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：好……"],["葉委員元之：大概多久？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個部分我要評估，因為……"],["葉委員元之：你就提一個想法給我，大概什麼時候提出來？"],["蕭院長宗煌：3個月內。"],["葉委員元之：3個月？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["葉委員元之：這個會期結束前，好不好？大概1月二十幾號前。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。"],["葉委員元之：提一個初步想法給我，我們把外部的監理機制建立起來。"],["蕭院長宗煌：OK。"],["葉委員元之：因為太多人懷疑這件事情。"],["蕭院長宗煌：好。"],["葉委員元之：接下來幾個細部的事情跟你討論，第一個，有關於解凍案，解凍案其中有一項是要處理圖檔的外流事件。在你們的後續改善措施這邊提到，112年3月17日曾經向淘寶網發出律師函，提出希望他們可以把那些打包圖檔下架的主張，這是你們的報告裡面所寫的；這邊又講確實有部分成效，因為部分商品已經下架。但問題在於那是112年3月做的，已經是一年多以前了。","那麼來看我們最近找到的資料，我這邊列出來的全部都是在淘寶上面的，有一些店家就是在做打包圖檔銷售工作，這部分在故宮的認定裡面，其實這個也不OK、是侵權。可是你們在112年3月那個時候跟淘寶主張之後，我不知道還有沒有動作，因為這些全部都在啊！譬如我這邊圈起來的一個叫八段錦古籍，它這個就是做圖檔打包的工作，這邊寫「买过的店」，為什麼會寫「买过的店」？因為我的助理在今年年初，應該是第一次我們質詢院長的時候，那時應該是3、4月，已經是半年前了，同樣的店，半年了還一直存在。代表這半年來，故宮對於要求淘寶下架、這一些所謂的侵權店家，沒有進行進一步的動作啊！我想問，為什麼從112年3月之後就沒有再進一步的動作？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，113年9月、10月、11月，我們都有跟那個……"],["葉委員元之：113年9月？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以112年3月之後就跳到113年9月？"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有……資料上面是這樣，我們……"],["葉委員元之：我跟你講，現在還是做得沒有很好啦！因為這全部都是在網站上、都存在的。"],["蕭院長宗煌：是。"],["葉委員元之：圈起來的那一家店，從今年3月質詢你以來，到現在都還在，等於隔了8個月，中間都沒有什麼動作。所以如果你們希望解凍的話，然後其中有一項，這是成效之一，那沒有達到成效啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告，其實我們有動作，可是因為它下架，它又上去，就是反反覆覆，我們一直在處理，起碼每季都會處理。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，這個寫「买过的店」，就不是下架再上去，這就是同一家啦！這就是同一家！"],["蕭院長宗煌：那我們就儘快……"],["葉委員元之：請你儘快，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：同仁請儘快處理。"],["葉委員元之：不然你這邊講你們已經改善了，實際上我們查的結果就是沒有改善啊！感覺好像故宮對於侵權這個事情就是不重視。","再來很快地講一下，這也是後續追蹤，上次問過院長織品部分，你說是只有一個人力、很少。當時我問你織品的時候，你也不是很了解，其實你可以去看很多文獻，上面都有，你可以讀一下。比如我們舉一個清朝的為例，這是清朝的其中一項織品，這個你認得出來嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員講，認不出來。"],["葉委員元之：認不出來？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對。因為我不是織品專業。"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係。你看他在修復的時候，他必須要透過顯微鏡，有的要放大65倍，有的要放大50倍，做非常細微的修復。這個部分真的需要專門的人才，如果沒有專門人才沒有辦法做到。可是目前來講，織品只有一個人可以修復，上次已經跟你提過，後來我們的結論是你要跟行政院爭取人力。不曉得有去爭取了嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我有跟人總那邊溝通，他們現在也在進行故宮的人力盤點。如果短期沒有辦法的話，我們會用基金的方式先行進用。"],["葉委員元之：是指織品還是所有各類的？"],["蕭院長宗煌：當然是織品。織品的話基本上來講，我們希望找到一個類似的，不是只會專修織品，有一些人才，如果他修復的幅度比較廣泛的話，可以修復其他的器物，因為織品也只不是織品，還有瑪瑙或什麼東西在上面。所以這個部分我們會去找適當的人才、增補。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。接下來我們有請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-22-11","speakers":["萬美玲","洪孟楷","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳培瑜","林倩綺","陳秀寳","葉元之","羅廷瑋","林宜瑾","吳春城","郭昱晴","張雅琳","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311001_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案有關國立故宮博物院單位預算案；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案有關國立故宮博物院主管故宮文物藝術發展基金附屬單位預算案；三、處理或審查 113\n年度中央政府總預算有關國立故宮博物院主管預算（公務預算）解凍案3案（第一案及第二案僅\n進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11311001_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}