{"error":false,"id":["157781"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157781,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157781","日期":"2024-12-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-15-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-04T11:03:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-04T11:13:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:50","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/01ebf86bd820836078d550470f256b564a6acd55cc740f5094948cb68dbf16abb8e0b699dbe74fe85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"11:03:26 - 11:13:16","會議時間":"2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算。三、審查大陸委員會函送財團法人海峽交流基金會114年度預算書案。四、審查大陸委員會函送財團法人臺港經濟文化合作策進會114年度預算書案。【所列預算案僅詢答，另定期處理】。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":1.2122187500000001,"end":2.2078437500000003,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.69659375,"end":7.3209687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":7.624718750000001,"end":19.09971875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.67409375,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.67346875,"end":23.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":21.90096875,"end":26.27159375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.26721875,"end":34.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":34.60784375,"end":37.12221875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.64159375,"end":34.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":37.392218750000005,"end":204.85971875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.85971875,"end":218.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":211.94721875000002,"end":212.68971875000003,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":214.27596875,"end":215.11971875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":217.81971875000002,"end":224.02971875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.50284375,"end":250.64159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":235.80846875,"end":236.23034375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":250.64159375000003,"end":264.86721875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.01221875000002,"end":259.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.06971875,"end":266.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":266.16659375,"end":270.03096875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.06096875000003,"end":268.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.47846875,"end":276.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":271.26284375,"end":271.81971875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":274.38471875,"end":288.72846875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.37971875,"end":280.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.98159375,"end":294.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":289.82534375,"end":290.77034375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":292.55909375000005,"end":300.62534375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.22034375000004,"end":306.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":305.38409375000003,"end":317.41596875000005,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.04034375000003,"end":326.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":326.12346875000003,"end":330.96659375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.96659375,"end":341.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":338.93159375000005,"end":339.04971875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":341.51346875,"end":343.92659375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":343.97721875,"end":343.99409375000005,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.99409375000005,"end":351.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":344.01096875,"end":344.02784375000005,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":344.21346875,"end":348.76971875000004,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":351.31784375,"end":380.17409375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.71846875,"end":353.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.39346875,"end":382.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":381.15284375000005,"end":382.51971875000004,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.51971875000004,"end":384.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":382.58721875000003,"end":383.90346875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.12284375,"end":389.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱主任委員垂正","start":389.08409375,"end":403.34346875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.02721875000003,"end":402.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.09471875,"end":402.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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們相關的這個違規違常的事件,我們都會邀請相關單位儘速作出處置,是不是這樣?就是你剛剛回答的七位委員都是這樣講的嘛,對不對?那我就想請問你,第一你現在說的這個竊結書的效力有沒有包含邀請單位?"},{"start":265.129,"end":269.492,"text":"有包括邀請單位包括邀請單位我們在這裡明確的做出答覆包括邀請單位除了邀請大陸團之外邀請單位也要也必須遵守邀請單位也不能做出政治的談話相關的談話對不對所以這是第一個即便我們認為他中國台北是他的習慣用語但你邀請單位也不能做出政治談話蕭旭哲談話算不算是政治談話我想也明確談話我們的規範的內容"},{"start":292.968,"end":294.449,"text":"第二、邀請相關單位快速作出處分。相關單位包括哪些單位?"},{"start":318.069,"end":319.83,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":341.482,"end":342.363,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":363.001,"end":363.341,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":384.275,"end":384.515,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":414.155,"end":414.875,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":430.762,"end":432.363,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":450.62,"end":466.768,"text":"主委我們還是要請基金會的相關人士我認為他跟我們的切結書有明確說不去對外講跟活動無關的政治性言論及宣傳我認為你今天就應該要召開會議了這個事實已經這麼明確了這已經不是盡快兩個字可以處理今天就應該要召集會議如果昨天還是女學生的言論"},{"start":477.853,"end":478.954,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":507.773,"end":508.993,"text":"五、審查大陸委員會函送財四、審查大陸委員會函送財五、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":527.958,"end":540.608,"text":"我們會先聯繫相關的主管機關持續收證,然後趕快再召開。不會,我知道行政有行政的作業程序,你的態度呢?你認不認為今天就應該要召開會議?是,我覺得應該要趕快。你會用在這裡承諾,你要用最快速的今天就開始啟動召集會議,這樣的承諾做不到嗎?可以吧?可以吧?我們就往這個方向來處理。"},{"start":553.257,"end":561.419,"text":"好 謝謝主委全台灣都在看你怎麼為這件事情這類的事情留下範例未來的中國同胞我們歡迎中國人民啦中國人民我們歡迎他來這裡可以啊 同友的同胞可以啊但你來這裡你要知道台灣是一個主權獨立的國家我們有我們的民主法治制度我們需要立委會要能夠表示這種態度謝謝主委謝謝委員"},{"start":584.67,"end":586.557,"text":"好接下來請徐宇貞委員發言"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:03:26.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:03:26.850000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請邱主委。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T11:03:27.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:03:28.051000+08:00","text":"請邱主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:03:32.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:03:33.015000+08:00","text":"蘇委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:03:33.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:03:33.956000+08:00","text":"主委你好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:03:34.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:03:44.866000+08:00","text":"主委，我們常常說民主、法治、自由、人權是我們應該要守護的基本價值，您認為這四個價值有沒有先後順序之分？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:03:45.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:03:47.629000+08:00","text":"我覺得都很重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:03:47.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:03:52.073000+08:00","text":"都很重要，我也認同，有沒有先後次序之分，在你的認知裡面？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:03:53.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:04:00.364000+08:00","text":"如果我的話，因為我是12月10號世界人權日出生的，所以我對人權是放在第一位。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:04:00.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:04:25.381000+08:00","text":"主委，跟你分享我的看法，我認為民主、法治、自由、人權，其實是有層次之分的，因為如果沒有民主和法治作為基礎、作為國家的框架、作為我們民主國家的基盤，當基盤都不穩固了，何來談人權、自由，甚至是多元呢？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:04:25.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:04:38.724000+08:00","text":"所以民主跟法治一定是要優先被守護住、穩固住，作為國家的基盤、框架，這才有辦法繼續守護後面的人權、自由，甚至是多元價值。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:04:39.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:04:47.565000+08:00","text":"昨天晚上南韓用3.8個小時為我們示範了民主、法治是多麼困難守護的一件工程。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:04:48.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:05:00.854000+08:00","text":"臺灣其實經歷了38年戒嚴的時期，主委剛剛也說下個禮拜是人權紀念日，其實那也是美麗島事件的紀念日啊！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:05:01.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:05:09.641000+08:00","text":"臺灣的民主是經歷多少人的犧牲、多少家庭的破碎，才走到今天這樣子的地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:05:09.641000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:05:33.612000+08:00","text":"任何國家其實都有親外勢力，一定的，任何國家、任何地方，都會有這樣的狀況，但如何在堅守民主、法治的國家界線、維護國家的整體利益，同時還要保障自由、人權，這個界線就是我們今天判斷的標準。","quality":0.163},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:05:33.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:05:36.653000+08:00","text":"如果你也同意這樣的論點，那我們再來看今天要討論的馬英九基金會的事件，我覺得就很清楚了，既然我們應該要守的是民主、法治，就不要假藉多元來包裝破壞民主、法治的事實。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:05:36.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:06:15.144000+08:00","text":"事實上昨天在年輕人的社群裡是一面倒的認為，現在馬英九所邀請過來的青年團其實是對臺灣國格最大的侮辱，就是在利用教育、文化交流的包裝，正在破壞臺灣的民主、法治。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:06:15.144000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:06:22.338500+08:00","text":"可是偏偏有人說，臺灣是一個有言論自由的空間，我們應該要尊重別人講話的自由、要尊重他的習慣用語。","quality":0.163},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:06:22.338500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:06:29.533000+08:00","text":"主委，這一次馬英九基金會所邀請的中國青年團在臺灣的土地上說出：我們驕傲的臺灣隊是「中國台北隊」贏得世界冠軍，希望中國和臺灣將來像Brothers一樣，為我們的祖國共同效力。","quality":0.025},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:06:29.533000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:06:36.727500+08:00","text":"對於這一段談話，你的看法到底是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:06:36.727500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:06:43.922000+08:00","text":"你要怎麼處置？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:06:43.922000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:06:51.116500+08:00","text":"簡短的再說一次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:06:51.116500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:06:58.311000+08:00","text":"我們認為這是不妥、不當的言論，而且也傷害臺灣人民的情感，我們有立即嚴正提醒邀請單位注意。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:06:58.311000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:05.505500+08:00","text":"你提醒了，然後呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:05.505500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:12.700000+08:00","text":"你剛剛其實已經回答很多委員了，請簡短再說一次，你現在即將要怎麼處置？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:12.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:32.817000+08:00","text":"我們認為這段話以及他後續的發言，都有可能違反當初切結的書面相關資料，以及違反現有的大陸人士來臺的許可辦法，所以按照相關違規違常的事件，我們都會……","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:32.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:34.298000+08:00","text":"邀請相關單位，儘速做出處置，是不是這樣？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:34.298000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:35.298000+08:00","text":"我們會邀請主管機關來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:34.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:35.799000+08:00","text":"你剛剛回答7位委員都是這樣講的，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:35.799000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:36.799000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:35.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:37+08:00","text":"那我就想請問主委，第一，你現在說的這個切結書的效力有沒有包含邀請單位？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:51.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:51.409000+08:00","text":"有包括邀請單位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:51.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:51.669000+08:00","text":"包括邀請單位！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:51.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:52.490000+08:00","text":"你在這裡明確的做出答復，包含邀請單位。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:52.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:52.790000+08:00","text":"許可辦法除了邀請的大陸團之外，邀請單位也要遵守。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:52.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:53.591000+08:00","text":"也必須遵守嘛，邀請單位也不能做出政治的談話、相關的談話，對不對？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:53.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:54.591000+08:00","text":"是、是、是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:53.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:54.872000+08:00","text":"這是第一個，即便我們認為「中國台北」是他的習慣用語，但邀請單位也不能做出政治談話，蕭旭岑的談話算不算政治談話？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:54.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:07:55.472000+08:00","text":"我想……也應該包括我們規範的內容。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:07:55.472000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:01.346000+08:00","text":"非常明確吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:01.346000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:07.220000+08:00","text":"包含在裡面，對不對？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:07.220000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:13.094000+08:00","text":"你現在如果不對它的內容作出評價，但蕭旭岑的談話包含在切結書的規範裡面，這個是明確的吧？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:13.094000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:18.968000+08:00","text":"否則以後很多邀請單位會透過交流來做一些政治宣傳，這是我們不同意的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:18.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:20.429000+08:00","text":"好，主委，第一，你明確地說切結書效力包含邀請單位；第二，我想請問你，你說邀請相關單位快速做出處分，相關單位包括哪些單位？","quality":0.442},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:20.429000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:26.012250+08:00","text":"我們的主管機關包括內政部移民署還有教育部，它是教育主管機關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:26.012250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:31.595500+08:00","text":"你說邀集這些單位，儘快做出處分，到底要多久才能做出處分？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:31.595500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:37.178750+08:00","text":"我們就事實蒐集完，依一定的程序，當然也要邀請馬英九基金會來說明。多久？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:37.178750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:42.762000+08:00","text":"我們儘快。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:42.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:48.345250+08:00","text":"儘快是什麼時候？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:48.345250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:53.928500+08:00","text":"今天嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:53.928500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:08:59.511750+08:00","text":"明天嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:08:59.511750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:09:05.095000+08:00","text":"還是要等他們回去？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:09:05.095000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:09:10.678250+08:00","text":"他們明天就回去了耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:09:10.678250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:09:16.261500+08:00","text":"他們明天就出境……","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:09:16.261500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:09:21.844750+08:00","text":"所以你要等他們明天出去之後嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:09:21.844750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:09:27.428000+08:00","text":"完整的資訊我們會馬上來做處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:09:27.428000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:09:33.011250+08:00","text":"主委，我跟你報告，剛剛在10點的時候，這一團去到了清大的校園，蕭旭岑繼續回答什麼呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:09:33.011250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:09:38.594500+08:00","text":"他對你剛剛的說法說：「我們完全沒有違反規定，按照切結第一點，不發表與活動無關之政治性言論及宣傳勿有矮化我方的行為及用語，若有違反即立刻停止所有行程。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:09:38.594500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:09:44.177750+08:00","text":"他們沒有停止我們的行程，代表我們沒有違反。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:09:44.177750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:09:49.761000+08:00","text":"」他已經這樣說了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:09:49.761000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:09:55.344250+08:00","text":"今天的事實，我們都要拿到內政部的聯審會，就是剛剛講的幾個主管機關，一起坐下來……","quality":0.029},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:09:55.344250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:00.927500+08:00","text":"我告訴你，因為你反應的速度，所以他現在說：如果我們有違反規定，今天不會站在這裡，兩岸的用語不同，他並沒有發表什麼要統一的言論，臺灣社會是有包容、有雅量的，不要跟一個20歲的女生計較。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:00.927500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:06.510750+08:00","text":"就事實的認定，我們有一定的嚴整程序，因為我們要對他有一些相對的處罰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧：他還說","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:06.510750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:12.094000+08:00","text":"邱主委說的行政處分是要禁止我們找大陸團來，但是很多朋友告訴我，陸委會行政處分是因為馬龍太熱了，你看外面歡迎的群眾非常地多，臺灣群眾非常喜歡馬龍和這些同學。","quality":0.028},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧：他還說","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:12.094000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:17.677250+08:00","text":"完全無視於整個清大舉滿了我們的國旗……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:17.677250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:23.260500+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們對於邀請單位……","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧：在告訴他","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:23.260500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:28.843750+08:00","text":"沒有民主、沒有自由啊！是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:28.843750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:34.427000+08:00","text":"不斷地引發不同立場的衝突，這是我絕不樂見的事情。是啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:34.427000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:40.010250+08:00","text":"好，你昨天……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:40.010250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:45.593500+08:00","text":"對於這個案子，我們一定會好好地加以依法處理。","quality":0.05},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:45.593500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:51.176750+08:00","text":"你看看這一段，如果前面都還要說評論的話，這一段到底有沒有政治評論：何況民進黨中央和民進黨黨團都希望戒嚴嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:51.176750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:10:56.760000+08:00","text":"他們呼應南韓，他們心中希望的是戒嚴和斷絕兩岸交流。主委？","quality":0.08},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:10:56.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:11:00.782000+08:00","text":"我們還是要請基金會的相關人士注意……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:11:00.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:11:01.202000+08:00","text":"我認為……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:11:01.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:11:09.966000+08:00","text":"他給我們的切結書有明確說不去對外講跟活動無關的政治性言論及宣傳，他不斷地違法啊！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:11:09.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:11:10.267000+08:00","text":"我認為你今天就應該要召開會議了。是、是！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:11:10.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:11:24.734000+08:00","text":"這個事實已經這麼明確了，這已經不是「儘快」兩個字可以處理，今天就應該要召集會議，如果昨天還是女學生的言論，還有在教育和文化之間模糊的話，那麼今天就在此刻，剛剛10點，蕭旭岑再次發表這樣的言論，他已經完全視陸委會的規定為無物，甚至倒過來顛倒黑白地在說你的作為。","quality":0.426},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:11:24.734000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:11:30.887000+08:00","text":"我認為、我要求陸委會今天就應該要召開跨部會會議，如果你要按照一定的程序，我同意，因為臺灣是民主、法治的社會。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:11:30.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:11:37.040000+08:00","text":"民主法治。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:11:37.040000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:11:43.193000+08:00","text":"回到我剛剛說的第一點，我們就是應該要堅守民主、法治，才有後面的人權、自由和多元。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:11:43.193000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:11:49.346000+08:00","text":"好，你就是要有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:11:49.346000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:11:55.499000+08:00","text":"我想我們講四個堅持，就是堅持自由民主的憲政秩序和體制，這是我們的堅持。是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:11:55.499000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:01.652000+08:00","text":"但是你不能行政效率讓人家看破手腳啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:01.652000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:07.805000+08:00","text":"對不對？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:07.805000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:13.958000+08:00","text":"所以我要求你，主委，你可不可以承諾今天就應該要召開？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:13.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:19.282000+08:00","text":"我們會先聯繫相關的主管機關持續蒐證，趕快來召開。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:20.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:24.306000+08:00","text":"主委，我知道行政有行政的作業程序，你的態度呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:24.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:24.967000+08:00","text":"你認不認為今天就應該要召開會議？是！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:25.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:25.087000+08:00","text":"我覺得應該要趕快……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:25.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:25.947000+08:00","text":"你在這裡承諾，你要用最快的速度，今天就開始啟動召集會議，這樣的承諾做不到嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:25.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:26.087000+08:00","text":"可以吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:26.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:27.087000+08:00","text":"做得到！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:26.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:26.588000+08:00","text":"我們就往這個方向來處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:39.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:40.077000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:40.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:44.038000+08:00","text":"全臺灣都在看你怎麼為這件事情、這類的事情留下範例，未來的中國人民，我們歡迎他來這裡……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:44.038000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:45.038000+08:00","text":"歡迎他們來交流。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:44.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:44.138000+08:00","text":"可以啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:44.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:44.838000+08:00","text":"所有的同胞可以啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蘇委員巧慧","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:45.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:47.299000+08:00","text":"但你來這裡，你要知道臺灣是一個主權獨立的國家，有我們的民主法治制度，我們希望陸委會要能夠表示這種態度，謝謝主委。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T11:12:47.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:12:47.419000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T11:13:11.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T11:13:12.537000+08:00","text":"接下來請許宇甄委員發言。","quality":0.818}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2403,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（11時3分）謝謝主席，請邱主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委你好。主委，我們常常說民主、法治、自由、人權是我們應該要守護的基本價值，您認為這四個價值有沒有先後順序之分？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我覺得都很重要。"],["蘇委員巧慧：都很重要，我也認同，有沒有先後次序之分，在你的認知裡面？"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果我的話，因為我是12月10號世界人權日出生的，所以我對人權是放在第一位。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，跟你分享我的看法，我認為民主、法治、自由、人權，其實是有層次之分的，因為如果沒有民主和法治作為基礎、作為國家的框架、作為我們民主國家的基盤，當基盤都不穩固了，何來談人權、自由，甚至是多元呢？所以民主跟法治一定是要優先被守護住、穩固住，作為國家的基盤、框架，這才有辦法繼續守護後面的人權、自由，甚至是多元價值。","昨天晚上南韓用3.8個小時為我們示範了民主、法治是多麼困難守護的一件工程。臺灣其實經歷了38年戒嚴的時期，主委剛剛也說下個禮拜是人權紀念日，其實那也是美麗島事件的紀念日啊！臺灣的民主是經歷多少人的犧牲、多少家庭的破碎，才走到今天這樣子的地方。任何國家其實都有親外勢力，一定的，任何國家、任何地方，都會有這樣的狀況，但如何在堅守民主、法治的國家界線、維護國家的整體利益，同時還要保障自由、人權，這個界線就是我們今天判斷的標準。如果你也同意這樣的論點，那我們再來看今天要討論的馬英九基金會的事件，我覺得就很清楚了，既然我們應該要守的是民主、法治，就不要假藉多元來包裝破壞民主、法治的事實。","事實上昨天在年輕人的社群裡是一面倒的認為，現在馬英九所邀請過來的青年團其實是對臺灣國格最大的侮辱，就是在利用教育、文化交流的包裝，正在破壞臺灣的民主、法治。可是偏偏有人說，臺灣是一個有言論自由的空間，我們應該要尊重別人講話的自由、要尊重他的習慣用語。主委，這一次馬英九基金會所邀請的中國青年團在臺灣的土地上說出：我們驕傲的臺灣隊是「中國台北隊」贏得世界冠軍，希望中國和臺灣將來像Brothers一樣，為我們的祖國共同效力。對於這一段談話，你的看法到底是什麼？你要怎麼處置？簡短的再說一次。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們認為這是不妥、不當的言論，而且也傷害臺灣人民的情感，我們有立即嚴正提醒邀請單位注意。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你提醒了，然後呢？你剛剛其實已經回答很多委員了，請簡短再說一次，你現在即將要怎麼處置？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們認為這段話以及他後續的發言，都有可能違反當初切結的書面相關資料，以及違反現有的大陸人士來臺的許可辦法，所以按照相關違規違常的事件，我們都會……"],["蘇委員巧慧：邀請相關單位，儘速做出處置，是不是這樣？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會邀請主管機關來……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你剛剛回答7位委員都是這樣講的，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對、對、對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那我就想請問主委，第一，你現在說的這個切結書的效力有沒有包含邀請單位？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有包括邀請單位。"],["蘇委員巧慧：包括邀請單位！你在這裡明確的做出答復，包含邀請單位。"],["邱主任委員垂正：許可辦法除了邀請的大陸團之外，邀請單位也要遵守。"],["蘇委員巧慧：也必須遵守嘛，邀請單位也不能做出政治的談話、相關的談話，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是、是、是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是第一個，即便我們認為「中國台北」是他的習慣用語，但邀請單位也不能做出政治談話，蕭旭岑的談話算不算政治談話？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想……也應該包括我們規範的內容。"],["蘇委員巧慧：非常明確吧！包含在裡面，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你現在如果不對它的內容作出評價，但蕭旭岑的談話包含在切結書的規範裡面，這個是明確的吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：對。否則以後很多邀請單位會透過交流來做一些政治宣傳，這是我們不同意的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，主委，第一，你明確地說切結書效力包含邀請單位；第二，我想請問你，你說邀請相關單位快速做出處分，相關單位包括哪些單位？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們的主管機關包括內政部移民署還有教育部，它是教育主管機關。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你說邀集這些單位，儘快做出處分，到底要多久才能做出處分？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們就事實蒐集完，依一定的程序，當然也要邀請馬英九基金會來說明。"],["蘇委員巧慧：多久？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們儘快。"],["蘇委員巧慧：儘快是什麼時候？今天嗎？明天嗎？還是要等他們回去？他們明天就回去了耶！"],["邱主任委員垂正：他們明天就出境……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以你要等他們明天出去之後嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：完整的資訊我們會馬上來做處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我跟你報告，剛剛在10點的時候，這一團去到了清大的校園，蕭旭岑繼續回答什麼呢？他對你剛剛的說法說：「我們完全沒有違反規定，按照切結第一點，不發表與活動無關之政治性言論及宣傳勿有矮化我方的行為及用語，若有違反即立刻停止所有行程。他們沒有停止我們的行程，代表我們沒有違反。」他已經這樣說了！"],["邱主任委員垂正：今天的事實，我們都要拿到內政部的聯審會，就是剛剛講的幾個主管機關，一起坐下來……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我告訴你，因為你反應的速度，所以他現在說：如果我們有違反規定，今天不會站在這裡，兩岸的用語不同，他並沒有發表什麼要統一的言論，臺灣社會是有包容、有雅量的，不要跟一個20歲的女生計較。"],["邱主任委員垂正：就事實的認定，我們有一定的嚴整程序，因為我們要對他有一些相對的處罰。"],["蘇委員巧慧：他還說：邱主委說的行政處分是要禁止我們找大陸團來，但是很多朋友告訴我，陸委會行政處分是因為馬龍太熱了，你看外面歡迎的群眾非常地多，臺灣群眾非常喜歡馬龍和這些同學。完全無視於整個清大舉滿了我們的國旗……"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們對於邀請單位……"],["蘇委員巧慧：在告訴他：沒有民主、沒有自由啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是！不斷地引發不同立場的衝突，這是我絕不樂見的事情。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！好，你昨天……"],["邱主任委員垂正：對於這個案子，我們一定會好好地加以依法處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你看看這一段，如果前面都還要說評論的話，這一段到底有沒有政治評論：何況民進黨中央和民進黨黨團都希望戒嚴嘛！他們呼應南韓，他們心中希望的是戒嚴和斷絕兩岸交流。主委？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們還是要請基金會的相關人士注意……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我認為……"],["邱主任委員垂正：他給我們的切結書有明確說不去對外講跟活動無關的政治性言論及宣傳，他不斷地違法啊！"],["蘇委員巧慧：我認為你今天就應該要召開會議了。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是、是！"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個事實已經這麼明確了，這已經不是「儘快」兩個字可以處理，今天就應該要召集會議，如果昨天還是女學生的言論，還有在教育和文化之間模糊的話，那麼今天就在此刻，剛剛10點，蕭旭岑再次發表這樣的言論，他已經完全視陸委會的規定為無物，甚至倒過來顛倒黑白地在說你的作為。我認為、我要求陸委會今天就應該要召開跨部會會議，如果你要按照一定的程序，我同意，因為臺灣是民主、法治的社會。"],["邱主任委員垂正：民主法治。"],["蘇委員巧慧：回到我剛剛說的第一點，我們就是應該要堅守民主、法治，才有後面的人權、自由和多元。好，你就是要有……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想我們講四個堅持，就是堅持自由民主的憲政秩序和體制，這是我們的堅持。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是！但是你不能行政效率讓人家看破手腳啊！對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以我要求你，主委，你可不可以承諾今天就應該要召開？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們會先聯繫相關的主管機關持續蒐證，趕快來召開。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委，我知道行政有行政的作業程序，你的態度呢？你認不認為今天就應該要召開會議？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是！我覺得應該要趕快……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你在這裡承諾，你要用最快的速度，今天就開始啟動召集會議，這樣的承諾做不到嗎？可以吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：做得到！我們就往這個方向來處理。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝主委。全臺灣都在看你怎麼為這件事情、這類的事情留下範例，未來的中國人民，我們歡迎他來這裡……"],["邱主任委員垂正：歡迎他們來交流。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可以啊！所有的同胞可以啊！但你來這裡，你要知道臺灣是一個主權獨立的國家，有我們的民主法治制度，我們希望陸委會要能夠表示這種態度，謝謝主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-13","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","王美惠","李柏毅","張智倫","黃捷","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","黃建賓","賴士葆","吳琪銘","丁學忠","王義川","葉元之","黃國昌","羅智強","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算；三、審查大陸委員會函送財團法\n人海峽交流基金會114年度預算書案；四、審查大陸委員會函送財團法人臺港經濟文化合作策進\n會114年度預算書案【所列預算案僅詢答，另定期處理】","agenda_id":"11311101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}