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here、停了，到現在也沒有啊！你有種把它停掉！你可不可能今天把它停掉？不管他什麼時候走，今天做決定把它停掉，有這樣決定嗎？準備這樣做嗎？準備這樣做嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，如果要做出這樣的處分，也要來自於我們的相關主管機關，包括教育部，他要提出來，我們在……"],["賴委員士葆：會做這樣的決定嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們還是有一定的程序，我們沒有馬上來處理，因為畢竟他還是學生，而且基金會有一些說明，但是我們有鄭重的警告他，提醒他可能……"],["賴委員士葆：有這麼嚴重？今天是學生講，今天如果是團長講就不一樣，如果今天是團長講的，我完全支持你的作法，但今天不是團長講的耶，他是一個小女生。來、來！讓你知道一下，一個「Chinese Taipei」兩岸各自表述，就好像「九二共識 一中各表」。羅文嘉秘書長可以一起看喔！我們講「Chinese Taipei」，老實講這個名稱我也不滿意，我們出去外面代表臺灣參與體育賽事，當然是臺灣隊，但沒有辦法，因為國際的現實、政治的現實，我們要參與只能稱「Chinese Taipei」，人家掛國旗，我們掛五個圓圈的奧運旗，老實講我們也不滿意，但是如果沒有忍辱負重地參與，我們怎麼會有這麼多金牌呢？這次中華隊或臺灣隊怎麼會能夠拿到12強的金牌呢？所以我們叫「Chinese Taipei」就是「中華台北」，大陸原來也用「中華台北」，但是2017年以後，大陸的政府以及媒體全面的把「中華台北」改成「中國台北」，我方不接受，但那是他們的用語啊！這個小女生現在20出頭歲，2017年就是7年前他可能才剛讀國中，他懂什麼？就是接受教育，接受教育幾年來順口就說出「中國台北」，有這麼嚴重嗎？今天如果是帶團的團長、當過清大校長的人來講這個話，你的作法就對，今天那個側翼媒體因為看到馬龍這麼受歡迎，受歡迎到什麼程度，主委你知道嗎？到今天為止，陸續還有在位的我們政府官員，有處長、有組長、有科長打電話給我們辦公室，詢問我們馬龍的行程在哪裡，說是買了乒乓球拍要給他簽名，迷到這個程度！連我們的公務人員都要去追他，就這個樣子。然後你們扣一個小女生，他幾年來在大陸受的教育，「Chinese Taipei」他們就是講「中國台北」，所以對他們是這樣講，一個女生這樣講，有這麼嚴重嗎？今天他不是團長，在團裡面沒有任何職位，就是one of the participant，有這麼嚴重嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：謝謝委員，我想由於很多事實我們還在釐清，包括他是不是基金會安排出去講的，他也對外說「我代表代表團」，當然他所說的話確實已經引發傷害臺灣人民情感，而且引起我們臺灣內部很多不同立場發生了很多對立，這個都不是我們從事兩岸交流願意看到的，也已經違反了我們相關的許可辦法還有我們基金會自己切結的一些內容，所以我們會做行政調查。"],["賴委員士葆：那你們要把他趕走啊！如果這樣你可以把他驅逐啊！如果你認為事態嚴重就驅逐啊！現在就驅逐，可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果有持續嚴重的話，我們已經跟基金會說這個已經引發國內非常多人的反感，認為他這個是不妥不當的談話。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你們給他的最後通牒是什麼？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們希望他還是要依照他們所答應政府主管機關的……"],["賴委員士葆：他們答應了嘛！你們也沒有停止他們的行程。"],["邱主任委員垂正：把它完整走完，我們也會立刻展開行政調查的程序，讓這個事情該怎麼樣做我們就來進行處分。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你的意思是不排除今天就把他趕走？你的意思是這樣子嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想我們還是希望他能夠走完。"],["賴委員士葆：希望走完喔！那以後這樣的團你們歡不歡迎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果是這樣的團，會造成我們國內不同意見的人的對立，傷害臺灣人民的情感，我們當然是不歡迎。"],["賴委員士葆：如果他是無意的呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：當然這就要事實認定。"],["賴委員士葆：如果是無意的呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：事實要調查嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：我剛剛講過，2017那一年，全中國大陸就將「Chinese Taipei」講成「中國台北」，我們當然不接受，講「中國台北」我個人也不能接受，我也認為是被吃豆腐，我不接受，但是他們的官方語言是這樣子，他在國中的時候就被教育成這樣。"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們對現在的交流團都採「三不一低調」原則，都不讓他們對外接受媒體採訪，是因為委員主持的協調會，我們也認為他們可能要對外怎麼樣，所以才讓他們跟外界的媒體有這個接觸。"],["賴委員士葆：所以這個又是我的錯？又是我的錯？"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有，我們感謝委員的協調，但是你如果是按照我們的法規、按照你的聲明書去走就不會有這個問題。"],["賴委員士葆：主委，你看協調完畢以後，我們字裡行間還稱讚陸委會、稱讚教育部，感謝再感謝！因為生殺大權在你手上。可是我要提醒幾位長官，在現在兩岸氣氛這麼不好的狀況下，有這麼一個團來，老實講要感謝喔！因為現在沒有人敢來啊！一來就這樣子容易被扣帽子啊！所以他們來，我們現在沒有任何的降格，我們還是維持賴清德總統的基調，對不對？有人來就不錯啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：只要是對等尊嚴、相互尊重，健康有序的交流，我們都歡迎也會提供協助，但是這個交流團已經有一點違反我們既有的這些許可辦法之嫌，所以我們還是要進行必要的行政相關調查。"],["賴委員士葆：我要問一下羅秘書長，因為今天一直都沒有跟你對話。我仔細的看了一下，你說不能接受「九二共識」，因為「九二共識」就是中華人民共和國……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：就是我講的「一個中國　一國兩制」。"],["賴委員士葆：其實「九二共識」沒有這樣子啦！"],["羅副董事長文嘉：有，他確實這麼講，白紙黑字。"],["賴委員士葆：大陸把它扭曲了，我們不接受嘛！一樣的，他講「中國台北」我們不接受，他講這個我們也不能接受嘛！對不對？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：對。"],["賴委員士葆：那倒過來講可不可以？只要有中華民國的空間，我們可以接受「九二共識」，可以嗎？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：「九二共識」白紙黑字沒有所謂共識，從來沒有！中國到現在所有白紙黑字、正式發言都說「九二共識」是體現「一個中國」，這個中國就是中華人民共和國。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，那是我們加的啦。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我想賴委員也是非常明瞭，對岸的立場從來沒變過。"],["賴委員士葆：主委很清楚，我從頭到尾都講中華民國，沒有中華民國就沒有「九二共識」。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：沒有中華民國基本上就沒有我們現在存在的基礎，所以這點是我們共同的想法，但「九二共識」從來沒有真的有九二「共識」，這是被創造出來而且會造成矮化我中華民國消失的危險。"],["賴委員士葆：不會矮化啦！"],["羅副董事長文嘉：會危險啦！"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以講沒有中華民國就沒有兩岸對話的基礎，可以這樣講嗎？主委，可以嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想最主要的癥結問題就在北京當局不肯正視中華民國客觀事實的存在。"],["賴委員士葆：那我們要講嘛！我們要講！"],["邱主任委員垂正：所以他要來正視中華民國客觀事實存在，這才是根本的問題。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我要講，沒有正視中華民國的存在，就沒有兩岸對話、交流的基礎，可以這樣講嗎？可以吧？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：可以。"],["賴委員士葆：可以吧？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["賴委員士葆：這句話大聲講，不用怕他啦！他不愛聽，我們也要講，這就是捍衛中華民國我們的主權嘛！捍衛中華民國在臺灣這一塊地方，我們行使我們的民主自由。老實說，大陸這個團來這裡不是什麼統戰團啦！被我們統戰還差不多，他們每天回去看電視就覺得王義川好會講，說不定還愛看王義川的節目，認為非常讚，變成在統戰他們，你們怕什麼？還怕被統戰？什麼叫統戰團？來被我們統戰啦！他們回去晚上都看我們的call in節目哩！非常愛看，我們的call in節目可以罵官員，可以罵這裡、罵那裡，罵東罵西，這種空氣沒得找啦！多辦幾個團只有好、沒有壞啦！那個小女生就不要為難啦！真的如果有那麼嚴重，那你把它停掉，你可以今天就把它停掉，你把他趕出去，要做就做大一點，不要似有若無。"],["主席（黃委員建賓代）：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢，也謝謝我們邱主委，謝謝吳董事長還有羅秘書長。","接下來我們請徐召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-13","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","王美惠","李柏毅","張智倫","黃捷","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","黃建賓","賴士葆","吳琪銘","丁學忠","王義川","葉元之","黃國昌","羅智強","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算；三、審查大陸委員會函送財團法\n人海峽交流基金會114年度預算書案；四、審查大陸委員會函送財團法人臺港經濟文化合作策進\n會114年度預算書案【所列預算案僅詢答，另定期處理】","agenda_id":"11311101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}