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都可以有他的看法"},{"start":472.239,"end":496.132,"text":"而我們立法委員最重要的事情是什麼就是站在人民的立場幫人民把關預算嘛這個才是我們現在之所以會站在這邊站在這邊不是在吵架啦站在這邊我們為什麼要去理解這件事情我剛剛也很善意的給海基會做說明了嘛若會贊不贊成制定兩岸協議監督條例"},{"start":499.029,"end":525.016,"text":"我們有曾經努力過但是最主要是中國大陸並不接受不好意思兩岸協議監督條例是我國的國內法跟中國大陸有什麼關係我想就是我們完成這個也沒辦法恢復兩岸的協商這是兩回事一個是監督機制一個是立法的監督機制立法的監督機制我們中華民國是一個主權獨立的國家"},{"start":527.048,"end":551.16,"text":"我們制定這個法律還要中國點頭喔重點是什麼重點是陸委會的立場在哪裡嘛陸委會的立場啊我提醒主委一下您前一任的主委是誰邱太三主委您前一任的主委是邱太三再前一任呢陳明通主委陳明通主委嘛來我跟您交換一下意見"},{"start":552.813,"end":580.599,"text":"我2019年我那時候第一次在國會的時候我問陳明通啊說兩岸協議監督條例到底什麼時候要立陳明通那個時候在國會怎麼講的他說現在比較迫切的是政治議題的協議拜託立法院先修兩岸人民關係條例把兩岸人民關係條例裡面的政治性協議的問題先處理完那至於剩下的剩下他拜託說2019年"},{"start":582.739,"end":599.774,"text":"北京對台灣主權的恐嚇非常的嚴重兩岸協議監督條例他希望立法院先過兩岸人民關係條例政治性協議的部分其他的部分我們未來繼續推動這是2019年說的話現在已經是2024年了所以我只有個最簡單的問題從陸委會的立場兩岸協議監督條例還要不要定"},{"start":609.383,"end":632.428,"text":"報告委員我想過去陳主委要求的是五之三的那個政治性協議那至於一般經濟性事務性的這個監督條例那我們尊重大院的這個審議所以只有尊重大院的審議行政部門沒有立場我們行政部門有既有的相關機制既有的什麼相關機制說來聽聽"},{"start":634.687,"end":636.369,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":645.711,"end":650.973,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":674.962,"end":694.786,"text":"兩岸人民關係條例五之三這個是政治性的協議當初民進黨所提出來的兩岸協議監督條例只有限於政治性的協議嗎?主委你有沒有看過民進黨所提出來的兩岸協議監督條例有看過嗎?只有政治性的協議嗎?是這樣定義嗎?是嗎?"},{"start":699.468,"end":727.224,"text":"那個時候行政院並沒有行政院版的而是立法院的我們委員提出來的啊對啊所以我現在的問題就來了嘛蔡英文也做了承諾賴清德也做了承諾搞了半天什麼搞了半天這個承諾全部都是空話連版本都沒有啊連推動都沒有要推動啊我要講清楚的是什麼兩岸協議內容非常的多啊"},{"start":728.16,"end":747.143,"text":"需要在國會裡面好好受到監督受到公民社會好好監督的絕對不是只有政治性的協議嘛絕對不是只有政治性的如果只有政治性的協議的話當初一群人在推兩岸協議監督條例那大家不是都犯傻了嗎"},{"start":748.624,"end":760.37,"text":"現在的問題在哪裡?你剛說北京敵視台灣北京不肯承認中華民國存在的事實北京不肯跟我們好好的協商談判這個我都同意啊"},{"start":761.483,"end":785.609,"text":"這個我都同意啊但是中華民國作為一個主權獨立的國家我們十年前就知道了兩岸的協議沒有健全的國會監督機制所以公民社會才會要求要訂這個嘛所以蔡英文才會承諾嘛賴清德也才會承諾嘛結果過了十年以後我們陸委會的態度是怎麼樣尊重本院的審議尊重本院的審議"},{"start":790.812,"end":807.22,"text":"這個是執政黨應該有的態度嗎?我簡單問你,所以站在陸委會的立場,到底有沒有要推兩岸協議監督條例?我們認為我們現在兩岸的民間關係條例相關的機制已有。如果民間社會,不好意思,我再說一次,當初為什麼會反對?"},{"start":812.83,"end":834.205,"text":"你現在的說法跟當初陸委會的主委一模一樣我為什麼說一模一樣當初他們就是說說兩岸人民關係條例裡面已經有健全的機制如果這句話成立的話過去這十年公民社會在要求兩岸協議監督條例是在要求假的喔是在要求假的喔"},{"start":839.565,"end":839.845,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":863.988,"end":865.83,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":886.96,"end":901.574,"text":"就是台灣民眾黨黨團啊但我要問的是什麼一位蔡英文一位賴清德跟台灣社會做了承諾具體的行動在哪裡我沒有看到具體的行動在哪裡好那請主委是不是可以提出這個後續的報告是好好好謝謝在一個禮拜內好不好OK提到"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2878,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時35分）謝謝主席，是不是麻煩有請主委？然後海基會的董事長也可以。"],["主席：請邱主委，還有吳董事長。"],["邱主任委員垂正：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好，董事長好。我想，很多委員大家都非常關心，就海基會的預算，其實我把各個年度，從2008年到2025年，整個都畫出來了，裡面不管是人事費跟人事費以外其他的，明年已經到了3.54億。3.54億的金額，如果往前看十幾年，唯一能夠相比擬的，只有2012年的3.56億，是一直朝向增加的狀態。但問題是納稅人非常關心，我們的海基會預算不斷地膨脹，那實際上到底在做些什麼樣子的事情？當然，對臺商的服務，我相信這個業務是持續的，只不過說，臺商可能移開中國這個生產基地也滿多的，所以可不可以簡要地跟大家講一下，這個預算不斷地增加，最主要的理由到底是什麼？"],["羅副董事長文嘉：委員，由海基會我來做說明，可以嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：可以，可以，可以。"],["羅副董事長文嘉：謝謝。實際上海基會今年增加預算，陸委會補助的部分增加七千多萬，我們海基會預算真正增加的是四千多萬，因為過去我們是自籌，現在改由政府補助，增加多，這是第一個原因。那四千多萬裡頭有2,000萬是人員調薪及勞退、健保相關經費，所以實際今年比去年增加是2,000萬，那2,000萬中主要是兩大部分，一大部分我們今年增加比較多的是有關大陸臺商子女回來臺灣參加寒暑假的營隊活動，這增加大概占了二分之一，另外二分之一左右是有關於學界、民間社團及綜合研析兩岸情勢的討論和掌握，主要是這樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長剛剛說的從某個程度上來講，內容都相當抽象，我不好意思說空泛，內容相當抽象……"],["羅副董事長文嘉：我可以提供具體的數字，辦幾場的數字，多少金額，都沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，等我們審到具體的預算細項的時候，我們一樣一樣再盤點，我一開始的時候是比較善意地用開放式的問題，讓你們簡要地跟社會大眾說明，為什麼有必要、錢會增加，因為現在兩岸關係不好，中國對臺灣也不是很友善，在這樣的情況之下，要去做兩岸交流的事務非常辛苦，這個我們大家都知道。但也不可諱言，在面臨困難的局勢、辛苦的局勢的時候，人民也在關心，在這樣的情況之下，為什麼海基會的預算還是會一直增加。我剛剛是很善意，開放式地給你們回答這樣子的一個問題。因為這個會牽涉到臺灣跟中國彼此之間的關係，剛剛秘書長也說了，說有在進行很多協商，有在進行很多交流，協商的部分，我比較不清楚，目前陸委會的立場，臺灣跟中國的談判應不應該以國跟國的方式來加以進行？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，我們認為兩岸關係最主要的癥結，就是北京當局不願正視中華民國客觀事實存在。"],["黃委員國昌：這個我理解，所以答案是什麼？"],["邱主任委員垂正：所以當年……"],["黃委員國昌：不用講古啦！"],["邱主任委員垂正：兩岸的定位還沒有確定……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我沒有多少時間，請你不要拖延我的時間，請你具體就問題來回答。你剛剛說得很好，北京當局不願意正視中華民國的存在，說得非常的好。但我的問題是，我們跟中國的談判要不要以國跟國的方式來進行？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，如果是兩岸都願意的話，本來就是應該……"],["黃委員國昌：以國與國的方式？"],["邱主任委員垂正：至少我們是一個談判的實體，這個要很清楚。現在最主要的問題是他不肯正視我們客觀事實存在。"],["黃委員國昌：這剛剛說過了嘛！我們在質詢、備詢的時候，基本上不要浪費時間，浪費時間沒意義嘛！在那邊繞來繞去的，直接回答問題有這麼困難嗎？","來，我們繼續往下看，海基會的白手套功能既然已經減弱，從現在就應該開始縮編，未來兩岸要以國跟國的方式談判，海基會的價值就不存在，贊成雙方在對等談判的情況下廢掉海基會。這個主張，主委贊不贊成？"],["邱主任委員垂正：以現階段而言，我們認為海基會仍有重要的功能。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個，海基會的功能幾乎只剩下替某政黨向臺商拉票固樁，變成「某政黨的特種黨部」，董事長的功能只剩下喝酒吃飯、交際、幫忙拉票，要減縮海基會的預算規模跟員額，剔除養老的肥貓，否則也沒有那麼多事情可以做。對這樣的主張……"],["邱主任委員垂正：這個說法不是事實。"],["黃委員國昌：主委你贊不贊成？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我當然不贊成，這不是事實。"],["黃委員國昌：這不是事實嘛？好。剛剛講的這兩段主張，上面那個主張，說的人是陳其邁；下面的那個主張，說的人是李俊俋。我一個字都沒改，這是當初民進黨在野的時候對海基會所提出來的強烈指控跟批評。現在民進黨執政了，主委說這不是事實，那顯然我們國家存在兩個不同的海基會。"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有，委員……"],["黃委員國昌：國民黨在執政……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我也待過海基會，我們的同仁都非常的認真負責……"],["黃委員國昌：請你讓我把話講完，好嗎？我說我們國家存在兩個海基會，一個是國民黨時期的海基會，因為國民黨時期的海基會……我跟主委報告，上面這些話都不是我講的，全部都不是我講的，這兩段主張一個是陳其邁講的，一個是李俊俋講的，所以誣衊的人不是我。您剛剛說了，現在的海基會不一樣，李俊俋跟陳其邁批評的是國民黨時期的海基會；現在民進黨時期的海基會，按照主委剛剛的說法：不公平、絕對不是這樣。那顯然我們的海基會氣象已經煥然一新了，過去對海基會所存在的批評，現在都不存在了！我剛剛說我們存在兩個不同的海基會，我是順著你的邏輯去做這樣的解讀。但是，事實上是不是真的這個樣子？我們現在的海基會跟過去的海基會展現了什麼樣子的不同？我相信這件事情的評價，主委你可以有你的看法，海基會董事長跟秘書長都可以有各自的看法，我相信在臺灣這個民主社會當中每一個人都可以有他的看法，而我們立法委員最重要的事情是什麼？就是站在人民的立場幫人民把關預算，這個才是我們現在之所以會站在這邊，站在這邊不是在吵架，站在這邊，我們為什麼要去理解這件事情？我剛剛也很善意的給海基會做說明了。","好，陸委會贊不贊成制定兩岸協議監督條例？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們有曾經努力過……"],["黃委員國昌：失敗了！"],["邱主任委員垂正：最主要是中國大陸並不接受。"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，兩岸協議監督條例是我國的國內法，跟中國大陸有什麼關係？"],["邱主任委員垂正：就是說我們完成這個的話，也沒辦法恢復兩岸的協商。"],["黃委員國昌：不是，這是兩回事，一個是監督機制，一個是立法的監督機制。立法的監督機制，我們中華民國是一個主權獨立的國家，我們制定這個法律，還要中國點頭？重點是什麼？重點是陸委會的立場在哪裡？陸委會的立場，我提醒主委一下，您前一任的主委是誰？"],["邱主任委員垂正：邱太三主委。"],["黃委員國昌：您前一任的主委是邱太三，再前一任呢？"],["邱主任委員垂正：陳明通主委。"],["黃委員國昌：好，陳明通主委。來，我跟你交換一下意見，我2019年第一次在國會的時候問陳明通說：兩岸協議監督條例到底什麼時候要立？陳明通那個時候在國會怎麼講的？他說：現在比較迫切的是政治議題的協議，拜託立法院先修兩岸人民關係條例，把兩岸人民關係條例裡面的政治性協議的問題先處理完。那至於剩下的，他拜託說，2019年北京對臺灣主權的恐嚇非常的嚴重，有關兩岸協議監督條例，他希望立法院先過兩岸人民關係條例政治性協議的部分，其他的部分我們未來繼續推動。這是2019年說的話，現在已經是2024年了。所以我只有一個最簡單的問題，從陸委會的立場，兩岸協議監督條例還要不要訂？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，我想過去陳主委要求的是五之三（第五條之三）的政治性協議，至於一般經濟性、事務性的監督條例，我們尊重「大院」的審議。"],["黃委員國昌：所以只有尊重「大院」的審議，行政部門沒有立場？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們行政部門有既有的相關機制。"],["黃委員國昌：既有的什麼相關機制？說來聽聽，說來聽聽啊！"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想兩岸條例已經有相關機制。"],["黃委員國昌：如果兩岸條例那個機制可以用、如果可以滿足的話，當初怎麼會說要訂兩岸協議監督條例？"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為2016年的時候……"],["黃委員國昌：來、來、來，我提醒一下，當初這是誰做的承諾？這是蔡英文的承諾、這是賴清德的承諾！奇怪了，蔡英文跟賴清德當初怎麼不主張說我們現在已經有既有的機制可以好好運作了？"],["邱主任委員垂正：報告委員，那個時候沒有五之三的修法。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以你把兩岸協議監督條例完全窄化成只是政治性的協議嘛！我才特別做這張圖提醒你們啊！兩岸人民關係條例五之三，這個是政治性的協議。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["黃委員國昌：當初民進黨所提出來的兩岸協議監督條例只有限於政治性的協議嗎？主委，你有沒有看過民進黨所提出來的兩岸協議監督條例？有看過嗎？只有政治性的協議嗎？是這樣定義嗎？是嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：那個時候行政院並沒有行政院版的，而是立法院的委員提出來的。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，所以我現在的問題就來了嘛，蔡英文也做了承諾，賴清德也做了承諾，搞了半天，這個承諾全部都是空話，連版本都沒有啊！連推動都沒有要推動！我要講清楚的是什麼？兩岸協議內容非常的多，需要在國會裡面好好受到監督，受到公民社會好好監督的，絕對不是只有政治性的協議嘛！絕對不是只有政治性的，如果只有政治性協議的話，當初一群人在推兩岸協議監督條例，那大家不是都犯傻了嗎？現在的問題在哪裡？你剛剛說北京敵視臺灣，北京不肯承認中華民國存在的事實，北京不肯跟我們好好的協商談判，這個我都同意啊！這個我都同意啊！但是中華民國作為一個主權獨立的國家，我們10年前就知道了兩岸的協議沒有健全的國會監督機制，所以公民社會才會要求要訂這個，所以蔡英文才會承諾嘛！賴清德也才會承諾嘛！結果過了10年以後，我們陸委會的態度是怎麼樣？尊重本院的審議。尊重本院的審議！這個是執政黨應該有的態度嗎？我簡單問你，站在陸委會的立場，到底有沒有要推兩岸協議監督條例？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們認為我們現在兩岸人民關係條例相關的這個機制已有，如果民間社會包括立法院願意推動的話，我們樂觀其成。"],["黃委員國昌：我再說一次喔，當初為什麼會反對？你現在的說法跟當初陸委會的主委一模一樣。我為什麼說一模一樣？當初他們就是說兩岸人民關係條例裡面已經有健全的機制，如果這句話成立的話，過去這10年公民社會在要求兩岸協議監督條例是在要求假的哦？是在要求假的哦？答應的事情，如果你們推動而立法院不通過是立法院的錯，但是你們做出了政治承諾，結果今天的態度是這個樣子！不好意思啦，我沒辦法接受。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們已經答應公民社會，通過了兩岸條例五之三相關的立法。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛不是跟你講過了嗎？五之三是只有政治性的協議啊！除了政治性的協議，其他的協議不用監督？"],["邱主任委員垂正：現行的兩岸條例就可以處理。"],["黃委員國昌：用兩岸人民關係條例可以……"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果委員認為不足，可以去推動，我們樂觀其成。"],["黃委員國昌：我推動了啊！我提案了啊！在這一屆國會裡面，唯一有提出兩岸協議監督條例的就是台灣民眾黨黨團，就是台灣民眾黨黨團！但我要問的是什麼，一位蔡英文，一位賴清德，跟臺灣社會做了承諾，具體的行動在哪裡？我沒有看到！具體的行動在哪裡？"],["主席：請主委是不是可以提出後續的報告？在一個禮拜內，好不好？提到內政委員會。"],["邱主任委員垂正：好。謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-13","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","王美惠","李柏毅","張智倫","黃捷","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","黃建賓","賴士葆","吳琪銘","丁學忠","王義川","葉元之","黃國昌","羅智強","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算；三、審查大陸委員會函送財團法\n人海峽交流基金會114年度預算書案；四、審查大陸委員會函送財團法人臺港經濟文化合作策進\n會114年度預算書案【所列預算案僅詢答，另定期處理】","agenda_id":"11311101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}