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12:36:17","會議時間":"2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部單位預算。\n【僅進行詢答；委員預算提案於12月20日中午12時前截止收件】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.14034375,"end":2.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.62034375,"end":9.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.379718750000002,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.02284375,"end":69.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.74159375,"end":75.37784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.71534375,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.90034375,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.89971875,"end":88.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.14784375,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.09221875,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.95659375000001,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.05284375000001,"end":111.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.04721875000001,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.57034375,"end":115.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.08471875000001,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.35471875,"end":118.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.10096875,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.09971875000001,"end":129.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.93909375,"end":130.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.85034375,"end":133.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.10721875000002,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.68846875,"end":143.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.89471875,"end":148.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.58221875,"end":144.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.65784375,"end":151.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.12971875000002,"end":151.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.65284375000002,"end":164.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.31096875,"end":153.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.65096875,"end":165.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.67596875,"end":165.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.70971875,"end":166.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.97971875000002,"end":167.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.70096875000002,"end":171.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.51471875000001,"end":174.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.78846875000002,"end":186.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.25909375,"end":194.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.49846875,"end":195.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.20284375,"end":202.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.37159375000002,"end":197.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.83471875,"end":202.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.90221875,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.82971875,"end":213.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.68534375000002,"end":213.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.71909375,"end":213.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.73596875,"end":242.60909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.75284375,"end":214.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.03096875000003,"end":244.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.85784375000003,"end":244.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.53284375,"end":246.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.16971875000002,"end":246.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.72659375,"end":246.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.74346875,"end":246.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.16534375,"end":250.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.43909375,"end":251.46846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.24471875,"end":263.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.88471875,"end":267.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.80409375,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.52909375,"end":277.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.24909375000004,"end":279.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.62034375,"end":280.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.03784375000004,"end":280.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.20659375,"end":280.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.71284375,"end":284.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.00346875,"end":288.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.18846875,"end":288.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.23909375,"end":301.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.72846875,"end":289.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.50284375,"end":302.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.29596875000004,"end":309.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":76.125,"end":97.595,"text":"為什麼預算會這樣子編列還會這樣子執行呢請說說明報告委員這個我上任之後就特別對出貨預算做個通盤這個違反預算法欸立法院三讀通過的預算你竟然有的你不執行沒有的你可以去執行這個邏輯怎麼這麼奇怪啊這到底是什麼重要的事項啊"},{"start":98.015,"end":102.017,"text":"不執行表示你的預估是有問題的那你沒有編列的你有9項增加欸你可以隨便這樣增嗎?可以如此嗎?這個你有辦理追加嗎?要怎麼做?"},{"start":115.582,"end":120.985,"text":"議員有些計畫沒有執行的部份是因為原本有一些國際會議要去參與那我們的外交有問題囉還是人家不邀請我們還是我們自己不去參加"},{"start":133.232,"end":151.395,"text":"我們要去參加那只是說有些地區因為可能有些簽證的問題過不了就是臨時有問題所以就沒辦法做那你在編列預算當時我們還審預算那個騙立法委員喔跟委員報告對不對因為很多個國際活動他都會這個問題你們去精心那你沒有的竟然會增加9項怎麼回事呢"},{"start":151.755,"end":173.681,"text":"您現在怎麼處理?就是因為有些計畫在編列預算的時候因為1、2年在編列計畫的時候數位發展部訂定成立所以我們是參考以往的編列方式去編列哇 這個邏輯更奇怪注意聽部長你請回部長編列的預算沒有辦法執行沒有編的竟然可以去執行"},{"start":175.682,"end":195.481,"text":"我們政府的預算是經過立法院三讀通過送請行政院單位來執行之 對不對怎麼可以這樣子亂搞呢亂來還剛剛回答的是說依照前年度那你們都沒有在精進部長依你的看法可以如此嗎"},{"start":196.463,"end":202.411,"text":"可以這麼做嗎?內部檢討部長還好你來一個內部檢討不然我們覺得太驚訝了怎麼可以這是一個公務預算怎麼可以隨便你要怎麼做就怎麼做"},{"start":214.436,"end":225.143,"text":"當然不行當然不行你要好好地去檢討來本席請你把檢討的方案給本席那本席跟你討論的114年裡頭你的民主網絡的連結跟這個這個是從113年1月份1月5號核定那總經費是7.8億你分4年度但是我們看到113年你編列的3.39億呢你到8月份我給你做統計只有14.5"},{"start":243.075,"end":251.001,"text":"部長,這怎麼辦?這怎麼辦?這怎麼辦?各位委員報告,那個有關於質詢率會比較慢的原因是因為整個專案是比較新,所以他有很多厲害的關係者在做協調。我們專案新不新,這不是邏輯。你請回。部長,我要請你再一次聽清楚。"},{"start":269.013,"end":286.085,"text":"這個預算是你們編出來的不是因為新他的年度到了只有完成率不到兩成你可以接受這樣的成效嗎部長你可以接受嗎請你告訴我當然不行所以要檢討趕快去經濟因為他是113年到116年以下的回答本席不希望聽到這種言語因為是新的你速發布是新的單位當然是新的政策新的計畫嘛"},{"start":297.532,"end":320.582,"text":"對不對怎麼可以如此的回答呢不負責任的回答好還好你說不行所以執行率到現在8月份14.5趕快去精進人民需要接下來再一個議題深化政府資通訊的應用建設裡頭本席覺得非常的奇怪預算給沒有問題但是你在測試的結果審計部113年4月20號給你的是說"},{"start":325.484,"end":348.957,"text":"你的發現你的連結網址失效的有118337筆但是你自己書發部說你失策的連結只有380筆哇那個差距部長差距多少45倍那我們政府經過公開資訊的可用性這麼低花了這麼多錢那到底誰在造假"},{"start":350.636,"end":351.317,"text":"審計部已經告訴你"},{"start":375.299,"end":377.821,"text":"一萬多筆。你們說380筆。差距45倍。李選惠部長這個要不要精進啊?你說的休息現在的時間科技資訊"},{"start":391.713,"end":411.002,"text":"對 這個這個失效這麼需要你把它關掉對不對失效的原因我們會再檢討不過剛剛講就是說你要維護期間關掉一些這個網站是大家都在做的事情那只是說這個數字到底現在還剩多少我們測完以後再跟委員做個報告到現在還不清楚審計部已經告訴你了審計部告訴你這一萬多筆因為你的落差45倍"},{"start":417.745,"end":445.92,"text":"請把正確的方案精進出來不要再粉飾太平審計單位已經告訴你了你還不精進對不對你要看怎麼樣方案不要讓人民這麼痛苦我們會再把最新的數字跟我們測試的結果再跟委員報告趕快去精進多久時間告訴本席你的精進方案我們在這一個禮拜以內就可以提出報告趕快加油"},{"start":447.896,"end":447.916,"text":"好,謝謝楊瓔"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":954,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時28分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。我們要討論出國計畫的預算編列，你們今年度編列2,220萬4,000元，113年是3,133萬6,000元，所以今年度和明年度相比，明年度是減列913萬2,000元，我們細看這裡面到底是怎麼回事。112年的出國計畫是1,408萬6,000元，決算是1,342萬9,000元，達成率是95.34%。和原先預定出席的重要會議相比，你們規劃的相關活動和重要會議總共23項，結果卻有6項沒有執行，占了26.09%。","最奇怪的是，原來的計畫不執行，未列預算的新增計畫卻有9項，這9項占了23項的40%預算，等於是四成。為什麼預算會這樣編列、執行呢？請說明。"],["黃部長彥男：我上任之後就特別對出國預算做通盤檢討。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個違反預算法耶！立法院三讀通過的預算，有編列的項目你們不執行，沒有編列的，你們卻可以執行，這個邏輯怎麼這麼奇怪？到底是什麼重要的事項？"],["黃部長彥男：不執行是因為很多活動有狀況，比如部長級會議，如果他們臨時沒有邀請部長……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不執行就表示你們的預估有問題。至於你們沒有編列的，其中有9項新增，你們可以隨便增加嗎？可以如此嗎？你們有辦理追加嗎？要怎麼做？"],["黃部長彥男：預算的部分，請國際司說明。"],["莊司長盈志：謝謝委員。第一個，有些計畫沒有執行，是因為原本有一些國際會議要參與，可是因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那是我們的外交有問題囉！"],["莊司長盈志：不是的，向委員說明……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是人家不邀請我們？還是我們自己不去參加？"],["莊司長盈志：我們要去參加。只是有些地區可能因為簽證的問題過不了，或是臨時有問題，所以沒有辦法出門。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你們當時編列這樣的預算給委員審查，是在騙立法委員嗎？"],["莊司長盈志：沒有。因為很多國際活動都會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個問題你們要去精進。但是你們沒有編列的，竟然增加9項，這是怎麼回事呢？這部分的預算怎麼處理？"],["莊司長盈志：因為112年在編列預算的時候，數位發展部是第一年成立，所以我們是參考以往的編列方式……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哇！這個邏輯更奇怪。部長要注意聽，你請回。部長，你們編列的預算沒有辦法執行，沒有編列的竟然可以執行，政府的預算是經過立法院三讀通過，送請行政院各單位執行之，對不對？怎麼可以這樣亂搞呢？亂來！剛剛回答是依照前年度編列，顯然你們都沒有精進！部長，依你的看法，可以如此嗎？可以這麼做嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：這個部分我們內部會再好好檢討。不過我……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，還好你說要內部檢討，不然我們真的覺得太驚訝了，這是公務預算，你們怎麼可以想要怎麼做就怎麼做，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：當然不行。但是各……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然不行！你們要好好檢討，請你把檢討方案給本席。","本席要和你討論114年民主網絡之連結與創新工作計畫，這是113年1月5日核定，總經費7.8億元，分4個年度執行。但是你們113年編列3.39億元，到8月份只有執行14.5%。部長，這怎麼辦？"],["黃部長彥男：這個部分剛剛司長有說明，這是關於執行率，請司長再補充說明。"],["莊司長盈志：有關執行率比較慢的原因，是因為整個專案比較新，所以它有很多利害關係者在做協調……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼專案新不新，不是用這樣的邏輯，你請回。部長，本席要請你再次聽清楚，這個預算是你們編列的，不能以它是新的計畫為理由，執行年度快到期了，結果完成率不到兩成，你可以接受這樣的成效嗎？部長，你可以接受嗎？請你告訴本席。"],["黃部長彥男：當然不行。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然不行！"],["黃部長彥男：所以要檢討，檢討的時候……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，要檢討，要趕快去精進，因為它是113年到116年的計畫。"],["黃部長彥男：因為這個計畫……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以下回答時，本席不希望聽到這樣的言語，因為這是新的。數發部是新的單位，當然是執行新的政策、新的計畫嘛！對不對？怎麼可以如此回答呢？這是不負責任的回答。"],["黃部長彥男：這個計畫裡面有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好你說不行。因為到8月份的執行率只有14.5%，你們要趕快精進，這是人民需要的。"],["黃部長彥男：這個部分會趕上。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來是另一個議題「深化政府資通訊應用建設」，本席覺得非常奇怪，給預算當然沒有問題，但是測試的結果是什麼？審計部113年4月20日檢核，發現你們的連結網址失效的有1萬8,377筆，但是數發部說試測失效的連結只有380筆。哇！部長，這兩者差距多少？45倍！政府公開資訊的可用性這麼低，還花了這麼多錢，到底是誰在造假？380筆和一萬多筆，差距45倍。"],["莊司長明芬：關於之間的落差，其實我們每個禮拜都有在做檢測，有些機關剛好是週末在做一些系統維護，維護的時候他們就會關掉系統，乃至於有些連結失效。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：審計部已經告訴你們有一萬多筆失效，你們說是380筆，差距45倍，你請回。部長，這個部分要不要精進？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛司長有說……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們說是因為週末休息，但是現在這個時代這麼需要科技資訊，竟然會把它關掉？"],["黃部長彥男：失效的原因，我們會再檢討。不過剛剛有說到，是因為維護期間關掉一些網站，這是大家都在做的事情。只是現在這個數字到底還剩多少？我們測完再向委員報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到現在還不清楚？審計部已經告訴你們了。"],["黃部長彥男：因為這個測……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：審計部告訴你們有一萬多筆，和你們的落差是45倍，請精進正確的方案，不要再粉飾太平。"],["黃部長彥男：這個數目和……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：審計單位已經告訴你們，你們還不精進？你們要看使用什麼樣的方案改進，不要讓人民這麼痛苦。"],["黃部長彥男：好。因為這個檢測是4月24日做的，我們會再向委員報告最新的數字和測試結果。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：趕快去精進。多久可以告訴本席你們的精進方案？"],["莊司長明芬：我們一個禮拜以內就可以提出報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個禮拜，趕快加油！"],["主席：好，謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，謝謝部長，各位首長。","接下來請葛如鈞委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-13","speakers":["魯明哲","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","蔡其昌","許智傑","游顥","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","林楚茵","劉建國","羅美玲"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於數位發展部單位預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11311001_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}