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主委好台灣的民主包容可貴啦其實就在於多元意見的表達多元意見的表達就是你不認同我的話但是我不一定認同你的想法你的話可是我是指捍衛你說話的權益對不對那一樣的道理我想先請教一下賴清德總統從過去到現在你認為他的骨子裡面"},{"start":28.547,"end":52.805,"text":"他自己也說過嘛,他就是務實了台獨工作者嘛,對不對那賴清德總統2014年他擔任台南市長的時候他也前往過中國大陸做交流,他那時候去上海那時候台南市政府也提了相關的出國報告也講是說兩岸交流尊重且自信的交流穩健良性的交流讓兩岸聽見更多元不同的聲音"},{"start":54.526,"end":69.679,"text":"賴清德總統有因為去了一趟中國大陸之後回來之後他改變他的台獨思想嗎?就你的理解跟委員報告520之後我們賴總統重申暫穩中華民國憲政體制不卑不亢維持現狀"},{"start":72.236,"end":73.638,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":91.34,"end":118.512,"text":"我今天會以一個比較包容多元的方向來看尤其是在這一次這個陸生團來台灣本來我們看到是說第一時間陸委會副主委沈有忠副主委表示說由活動內容項目來講沒有太多的國家安全疑慮啊因為畢竟我們看到是這一次這陸生團他們就是做學術交流有參訪有看101有看淡水有去這個互委砲台"},{"start":119.392,"end":121.354,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":146.837,"end":148.259,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":165.177,"end":168.118,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":193.746,"end":196.308,"text":"四、審查大陸委員會函送財四、審查大陸委員會函送財四、審查大陸委員會函送財四、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":221.306,"end":223.387,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":245.72,"end":249.702,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":275.525,"end":279.747,"text":"主委,我覺得社會在對立或說社會沒有對立,我某種程度上是你們的敏感神經在作祟。因為就我的理解跟認知,中國大陸的學生如果說他從小到大他可能被灌輸的教育觀念是這個樣子,"},{"start":303.176,"end":303.857,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":323.717,"end":341.63,"text":"如果說今天我們要辦任何的一個正常的交流活動我們要求的是別人來到我們這塊土地上面沒有做侮辱性或者是這個攻擊性的言辭但是他一定要講什麼不可的話那我覺得某種程度上我們也算是一種思想審查"},{"start":342.671,"end":358.871,"text":"主委你會不會覺得我們有必要把自己限縮到這種程度嗎我想已經違反了對等尊嚴的不當說法引起臺灣社會的激烈反應我想我們行政部我真的說實在話你是部委會主委"},{"start":361.875,"end":378.67,"text":"所以說對於我們來講因為其實本期還有看到另外一個議題所以你今天一開始的時候也有新聞講說解除淨團令那陸委會說持續的評估跟推動但實際上我看內文來講好像其實也沒有任何實質的進展"},{"start":380.529,"end":381.31,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":399.189,"end":400.591,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":413.171,"end":428.395,"text":"其實我們是在警示是在6月27號提出來的那多少倍就是說我們現在從1月到10月賦入的是230萬人次"},{"start":433.447,"end":443.336,"text":"主委對業務沒有到很熟齁昨天你們提出來這所謂的專線的時候你們新聞裡面才講增加了五倍"},{"start":444.666,"end":447.247,"text":"三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財三、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":472.058,"end":498.376,"text":"因為我們還是有一些被監察、被拘禁、然後刑方不明或是不能讓他或促進管制的這些案例還有所以還是有一些風險所以我們持續的去觀察他個人付入是不是安全如果還是有疑慮的話我們還是要提出各種的警示還有各種的風險提醒所以看起來你不是一個量化指標你是個案的一個評估"},{"start":498.996,"end":499.637,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":518.717,"end":519.398,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":535.535,"end":538.356,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"},{"start":554.525,"end":568.634,"text":"所以看起來 我說實在話啦大家都期待兩岸能夠正常穩定的交流都能夠有更多元的對話讓兩岸能夠更了解金孟程度上可能會降低這個戰爭風險跟惡意的螺旋"},{"start":569.935,"end":585.576,"text":"但如果說連我們主旗幟者的大陸委員會都沒有用這種比較客觀明確的一個指標的話我真的很擔憂整個賴清德政府是不是都一味的用更加惡意的方向來持續增加對應沒有我們是為了國人的安全"},{"start":586.777,"end":590.979,"text":"二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財二、審查大陸委員會函送財"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:13:44+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:13:46.034000+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請邱垂正主委。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-04T13:13:46.034000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:13:48.068000+08:00","text":"請邱主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:13:48.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:13:48.068000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:13:49.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:13:49.229000+08:00","text":"主委好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:13:50.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:14:04.558000+08:00","text":"臺灣的民主包容可貴其實就在於多元意見的表達，多元意見表達就是我不一定認同你的想法、你的話，可是我誓死捍衛你說話的權益，對不對？是。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:14:04.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:14:16.670000+08:00","text":"那一樣的道理，我想先請教一下，賴清德總統從過去到現在，你認為他的骨子裡面，他自己也說過嘛，他就是務實的臺獨工作者，對不對？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:14:16.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:14:36.785000+08:00","text":"賴清德總統2014年他擔任臺南市長的時候，他也前往過中國大陸做交流，他那時候去上海，那時候臺南市政府也提了相關的出國報告，也講說兩岸交流是尊重且自信的交流、穩健良性的交流，讓兩岸聽見更多元不同的聲音。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:14:38.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:14:43.951000+08:00","text":"賴清德總統有因為去了一趟中國大陸回來之後而改變他的臺獨思想嗎？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:14:43.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:14:44.611000+08:00","text":"就你的理解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:14:45.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:14:53.679000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，520之後賴總統重申站穩中華民國憲政體制，不卑不亢，維持現狀。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:14:53.679000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:14:54.825000+08:00","text":"我問的問題跟你回答的答案是完全不一致的，我問的是2014年賴總統當時是臺南市長，他有因為去了一趟中國大陸之後，然後改變他的臺獨思想嗎？","quality":0.034},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:14:54.825000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:14:55.971000+08:00","text":"好像也沒有嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:14:55.971000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:14:57.117000+08:00","text":"這個我很難替他回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:14:57.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:15:41.591000+08:00","text":"但外人大家都知道，其實我今天會以一個比較包容多元的方向來看，尤其是在這一次陸生團來臺灣，本來我們看到第一時間陸委會沈有忠副主委表示由活動內容項目來講沒有太多的國家安全疑慮，畢竟我們看到這次陸生團就是做學術交流，有參訪，有看101，有看淡水，有去滬尾礮臺，有去打棒球，也都很好啊！","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:15:41.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:15:42.591000+08:00","text":"但是因為他脫口而出講了一個用詞，而讓我們覺得現在是有疑慮的，所以你今天早上有講說要做進一步的行政方面的處分。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:15:42.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:15:43.591000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們協助這個團，包括協助他……","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:15:43.591000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:15:44.591000+08:00","text":"日前我們有沒有要求他絕對不能講什麼話？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:15:43.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:15:43.572000+08:00","text":"或是思想審查？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:15:43.572000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:15:52.745706+08:00","text":"我們告訴陸生說來之後絕對不能講到什麼詞，不然就是踩到我們的紅線，有沒有？","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:15:52.745706+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:01.919412+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為他也有聲明切結啦，針對相關的……","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:01.919412+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:11.093118+08:00","text":"對啦，主委，我們很實在講，我覺得就事論事很持平……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:11.093118+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:20.266824+08:00","text":"我們相關的許可辦法也有規定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:20.266824+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:29.440529+08:00","text":"我沒有說我認同他的話喔，我們是中華民國，我是臺灣人，但是他今天要來講任何的話語都是他的意見表達，那他今天講的任何意見表達，我們居然會因為他的一句話之後，第一，有一些獨派團體開始如影隨形的去做抗議，我覺得這某種程度上也對於整個陸生團、學生團來講，好像會有一點點太製造衝突的一個情況嘛。","quality":0.015},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:29.440529+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:38.614235+08:00","text":"再者是說，我們民主臺灣2,350萬人有可能因為聽到一句、一個詞，然後我們就突然覺得我們不是中華民國了、我們被統戰了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:38.614235+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:47.787941+08:00","text":"我覺得也不至於嘛！是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:47.787941+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:16:56.961647+08:00","text":"臺灣是有自信的一個地方，我們也認為我們的球隊出去打比賽，是中華民國代表隊，任何人都搶不走我們的榮耀，任何人都搶不走陳傑憲的MVP，因為他就是我們共同的驕傲啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:16:56.961647+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:06.135353+08:00","text":"不容許任何人去拿一個詞之後……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:06.135353+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:15.309059+08:00","text":"但是來臺交流不應該傷害臺灣人民的情感……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:15.309059+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:24.482765+08:00","text":"好啦，拉回來，我現在問我們當時有沒有要求他什麼東西絕對不能講？有。什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:24.482765+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:33.656471+08:00","text":"什麼用詞不能講？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:33.656471+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:42.830176+08:00","text":"我們要求他跟活動無關的政治性的談話跟宣傳不要講，特別是引發了不同立場的對立，如果傷害了臺灣人民情感，那這個部分就不是我們初衷要推動的交流。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:42.830176+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:17:52.003882+08:00","text":"主委，很實在話來講，這個是他們的意見表達，這是多元民主的聲音，再者，如果真照你這樣講的話，我實在也要說喔，媒體要不要也要有一些……因為看起來他的那些畫面也都是媒體的訪問，您懂我意思嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:17:52.003882+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:18:01.177588+08:00","text":"委員，是這樣，我們推動一個交流……","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:18:01.177588+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:18:10.351294+08:00","text":"沒有錯，推動一個交流，但是重點是我們看到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:18:10.351294+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:18:19.525000+08:00","text":"我們不要引起那麼多的副作用，社會對立增加，這個是我們不樂見的。","quality":0.036},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:18:19.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:19:07.877000+08:00","text":"主委，我覺得社會在對立或是說社會沒有對立，某種程度上是你們的敏感神經在作祟，因為就我的理解跟認知，中國大陸的學生如果從小到大可能被灌輸的教育觀念是這個樣子，如果他今天講出另外的話，我們可能才會覺得好奇，才會覺得奇怪。","quality":0.74},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:19:07.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:19:08.877000+08:00","text":"今天是他的立場，你沒有辦法用你自己的意識、你自己的言論、你自己的觀念、你自己的價值，去強輸他一定要講你的話。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:19:08.877000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:19:09.877000+08:00","text":"因為是基金會安排去做聯訪而提出這個話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:19:08.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:19:32.418000+08:00","text":"主委，你先把本席的問題聽完，如果今天我們要辦任何一個正常的交流活動，我們要求的是別人來到我們這塊土地上面，沒有做污辱性或者是攻擊性的言詞，但是他一定要講什麼不可的話，那我覺得某種程度上，我們也算是一種思想審查，主委，你會不會覺得我們有必要把自己限縮到這種程度嗎？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:19:32.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:19:40.809000+08:00","text":"我想已經違反了對等尊嚴的不當說法，引起臺灣社會的激烈反應，我們行政部門……","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:19:41.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:19:42.391000+08:00","text":"主委，我真的說實在話啦……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:19:42.391000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:19:43.391000+08:00","text":"還是要依照相關法規來處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:19:42.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:20:02.650000+08:00","text":"你是陸委會主委，其實本席還有看到另外一個議題，今天一開始的時候，有新聞提到解除禁團令，陸委會說會持續的評估跟推動；但實際上看了內文之後，好像也沒有任何實質的進展，所以我可不可以請教一下，如果你說對解除禁團令有持續的評估跟推動，有什麼指標是你認為……","quality":0.575},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:20:02.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:20:14.357000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個指標很重要，我們現在唯一重視的是國人赴陸旅遊的安全，我們現在看到還是有很多個案報來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:20:14.357000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:20:26.064000+08:00","text":"現在我們國人赴陸的人數增長了多少倍？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:20:26.064000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:20:37.771000+08:00","text":"從陸委會提出這個警訊、警告之後，到現在成長了多少倍？","quality":0.13},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:20:37.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:20:42.652000+08:00","text":"我們的警示是在6月27日提出來的……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:20:44.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:20:45.173000+08:00","text":"多少倍？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:20:47.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:20:52.375000+08:00","text":"1月到10月我們赴陸的有230萬人次。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:20:57.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:21:07.315000+08:00","text":"主委對業務沒有到很熟，因為昨天你們提出所謂的這個專線的時候，你們在新聞裡面講增加了5倍，換言之……","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:21:07.315000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:21:14.500750+08:00","text":"如果是那個專線的話，我們是比去年增加了14倍，港澳部分是5倍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:21:14.500750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:21:21.686500+08:00","text":"沒錯，所以我現在講，即便是你們提出來，國人在這個部分還是有持續成長的一個狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:21:21.686500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:21:28.872250+08:00","text":"對，赴陸港澳還是有成長。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:21:28.872250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:21:36.058000+08:00","text":"所以我現在講的是這個禁團令的部分，你們現在評估的具體指標及一些具體條件是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:21:36.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:21:59.474000+08:00","text":"因為我們還是有一些被盤查、被拘禁，然後行方不明，或是出境管制的這些案例還有，所以還是有一些風險，我們會持續觀察國人赴陸是不是安全，如果還是有疑慮的話，我們還是要提出各種的警示，還有各種的風險提醒。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:21:59.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:02.175000+08:00","text":"所以看起來，你不是做一個量化指標，你是個案的評估？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:02.175000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:08.518444+08:00","text":"我們也在看手邊的案子多不多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:08.518444+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:14.861889+08:00","text":"多是多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:14.861889+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:21.205333+08:00","text":"少又是多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:21.205333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:27.548778+08:00","text":"如果還是很多被盤查、被拘禁……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:27.548778+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:33.892222+08:00","text":"說實在，主委這樣講都非常抽象，因為對我們來說，一個地方旅遊警訊的高、低，你要解除與否，其實是可以很客觀的判斷。","quality":0.042},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:33.892222+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:40.235667+08:00","text":"我了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:40.235667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:46.579111+08:00","text":"譬如說，到什麼程度以下，還是怎麼樣；但我現在要問的是，很多人今天早上看到這樣的新聞標題─你持續推動跟評估，大家會有期待，但是點進內文裡面，完全不是這麼一回事，因為你們沒有任何一個客觀的數字，這樣還是會陷入一個惡意的螺旋。","quality":0.03},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:46.579111+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:52.922556+08:00","text":"有，我們還是有一些案例，比如今天有三位道親被對方拘捕，所以我們還是有些擔心，還是要持續宣導，也會持續評估。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:52.922556+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:22:59.266000+08:00","text":"我們會把相關的這個機制再跟委員報告。","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:22:59.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:28.354000+08:00","text":"我說實在話，大家都期待兩岸能夠正常、穩定的交流，能夠有更多元的對話，讓兩岸能夠更了解，其實在某種程度上，可能會降低這個戰爭風險跟惡意的螺旋；但若連我們主其事的大陸委員會，都沒有用一種比較客觀明確的指標，我真的很擔憂，整個賴清德政府是不是都一味的用更加惡意的方向來持續增加對立？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:28.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:30.937000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們是為了國人的安全，大院的決議也要求我們維持國人的安全。","quality":0.448},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:30.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:31.937000+08:00","text":"大家都為了國人的安全，大家都為了2,350萬人的安全，大家都為了中華民國生存的安全，大家都為了臺灣這塊土地安全。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:31.937000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:32.937000+08:00","text":"但是除了這個以外，我們還是期待陸委會能夠扮演好你們應該扮演的角色。","quality":0.097},{"speaker":"邱主任委員垂正","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:31.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:31.718000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員建賓代）","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:32.218000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:36.789429+08:00","text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，也謝謝邱主委。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員建賓代）","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:37.089429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:41.660857+08:00","text":"接下來羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員建賓代）","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:41.960857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:45.675143+08:00","text":"張啓楷、張啓楷、張啓楷委員不在。","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員建賓代）","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:45.975143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:49.689429+08:00","text":"鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員建賓代）","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:49.989429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:53.703714+08:00","text":"林倩綺、林倩綺、林倩綺委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員建賓代）","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:54.003714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:23:57.718000+08:00","text":"林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員建賓代）","start":"2024-12-04T13:23:58.018000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:24:01.732286+08:00","text":"何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員建賓代）","start":"2024-12-04T13:24:02.032286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:24:06.603714+08:00","text":"高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（黃委員建賓代）","start":"2024-12-04T13:24:06.903714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-04T13:24:09.760857+08:00","text":"現在請沈伯洋委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":3118,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時13分）主席，麻煩請邱垂正主委。"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。臺灣的民主包容可貴其實就在於多元意見的表達，多元意見表達就是我不一定認同你的想法、你的話，可是我誓死捍衛你說話的權益，對不對？"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那一樣的道理，我想先請教一下，賴清德總統從過去到現在，你認為他的骨子裡面，他自己也說過嘛，他就是務實的臺獨工作者，對不對？賴清德總統2014年他擔任臺南市長的時候，他也前往過中國大陸做交流，他那時候去上海，那時候臺南市政府也提了相關的出國報告，也講說兩岸交流是尊重且自信的交流、穩健良性的交流，讓兩岸聽見更多元不同的聲音。賴清德總統有因為去了一趟中國大陸回來之後而改變他的臺獨思想嗎？就你的理解。"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，520之後賴總統重申站穩中華民國憲政體制，不卑不亢，維持現狀。"],["洪委員孟楷：我問的問題跟你回答的答案是完全不一致的，我問的是2014年賴總統當時是臺南市長，他有因為去了一趟中國大陸之後，然後改變他的臺獨思想嗎？好像也沒有嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：這個我很難替他回答。"],["洪委員孟楷：但外人大家都知道，其實我今天會以一個比較包容多元的方向來看，尤其是在這一次陸生團來臺灣，本來我們看到第一時間陸委會沈有忠副主委表示由活動內容項目來講沒有太多的國家安全疑慮，畢竟我們看到這次陸生團就是做學術交流，有參訪，有看101，有看淡水，有去滬尾礮臺，有去打棒球，也都很好啊！但是因為他脫口而出講了一個用詞，而讓我們覺得現在是有疑慮的，所以你今天早上有講說要做進一步的行政方面的處分。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。跟委員報告，我們協助這個團，包括協助他……"],["洪委員孟楷：日前我們有沒有要求他絕對不能講什麼話？或是思想審查？我們告訴陸生說來之後絕對不能講到什麼詞，不然就是踩到我們的紅線，有沒有？"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，因為他也有聲明切結啦，針對相關的……"],["洪委員孟楷：對啦，主委，我們很實在講，我覺得就事論事很持平……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們相關的許可辦法也有規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：我沒有說我認同他的話喔，我們是中華民國，我是臺灣人，但是他今天要來講任何的話語都是他的意見表達，那他今天講的任何意見表達，我們居然會因為他的一句話之後，第一，有一些獨派團體開始如影隨形的去做抗議，我覺得這某種程度上也對於整個陸生團、學生團來講，好像會有一點點太製造衝突的一個情況嘛。再者是說，我們民主臺灣2,350萬人有可能因為聽到一句、一個詞，然後我們就突然覺得我們不是中華民國了、我們被統戰了？我覺得也不至於嘛！"],["邱主任委員垂正：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：臺灣是有自信的一個地方，我們也認為我們的球隊出去打比賽，是中華民國代表隊，任何人都搶不走我們的榮耀，任何人都搶不走陳傑憲的MVP，因為他就是我們共同的驕傲啊！不容許任何人去拿一個詞之後……"],["邱主任委員垂正：但是來臺交流不應該傷害臺灣人民的情感……"],["洪委員孟楷：好啦，拉回來，我現在問我們當時有沒有要求他什麼東西絕對不能講？"],["邱主任委員垂正：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼？什麼用詞不能講？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們要求他跟活動無關的政治性的談話跟宣傳不要講，特別是引發了不同立場的對立，如果傷害了臺灣人民情感，那這個部分就不是我們初衷要推動的交流。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，很實在話來講，這個是他們的意見表達，這是多元民主的聲音，再者，如果真照你這樣講的話，我實在也要說喔，媒體要不要也要有一些……因為看起來他的那些畫面也都是媒體的訪問，您懂我意思嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：委員，是這樣，我們推動一個交流……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有錯，推動一個交流，但是重點是我們看到……"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們不要引起那麼多的副作用，社會對立增加，這個是我們不樂見的。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我覺得社會在對立或是說社會沒有對立，某種程度上是你們的敏感神經在作祟，因為就我的理解跟認知，中國大陸的學生如果從小到大可能被灌輸的教育觀念是這個樣子，如果他今天講出另外的話，我們可能才會覺得好奇，才會覺得奇怪。今天是他的立場，你沒有辦法用你自己的意識、你自己的言論、你自己的觀念、你自己的價值，去強輸他一定要講你的話。"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為是基金會安排去做聯訪而提出這個話……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，你先把本席的問題聽完，如果今天我們要辦任何一個正常的交流活動，我們要求的是別人來到我們這塊土地上面，沒有做污辱性或者是攻擊性的言詞，但是他一定要講什麼不可的話，那我覺得某種程度上，我們也算是一種思想審查，主委，你會不會覺得我們有必要把自己限縮到這種程度嗎？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我想已經違反了對等尊嚴的不當說法，引起臺灣社會的激烈反應，我們行政部門……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，我真的說實在話啦……"],["邱主任委員垂正：還是要依照相關法規來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：你是陸委會主委，其實本席還有看到另外一個議題，今天一開始的時候，有新聞提到解除禁團令，陸委會說會持續的評估跟推動；但實際上看了內文之後，好像也沒有任何實質的進展，所以我可不可以請教一下，如果你說對解除禁團令有持續的評估跟推動，有什麼指標是你認為……"],["邱主任委員垂正：跟委員報告，這個指標很重要，我們現在唯一重視的是國人赴陸旅遊的安全，我們現在看到還是有很多個案報來……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在我們國人赴陸的人數增長了多少倍？從陸委會提出這個警訊、警告之後，到現在成長了多少倍？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們的警示是在6月27日提出來的……"],["洪委員孟楷：多少倍？"],["邱主任委員垂正：1月到10月我們赴陸的有230萬人次。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委對業務沒有到很熟，因為昨天你們提出所謂的這個專線的時候，你們在新聞裡面講增加了5倍，換言之……"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果是那個專線的話，我們是比去年增加了14倍，港澳部分是5倍。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒錯，所以我現在講，即便是你們提出來，國人在這個部分還是有持續成長的一個狀況。"],["邱主任委員垂正：對，赴陸港澳還是有成長。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我現在講的是這個禁團令的部分，你們現在評估的具體指標及一些具體條件是什麼？"],["邱主任委員垂正：因為我們還是有一些被盤查、被拘禁，然後行方不明，或是出境管制的這些案例還有，所以還是有一些風險，我們會持續觀察國人赴陸是不是安全，如果還是有疑慮的話，我們還是要提出各種的警示，還有各種的風險提醒。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以看起來，你不是做一個量化指標，你是個案的評估？"],["邱主任委員垂正：我們也在看手邊的案子多不多。"],["洪委員孟楷：多是多少？少又是多少？"],["邱主任委員垂正：如果還是很多被盤查、被拘禁……"],["洪委員孟楷：說實在，主委這樣講都非常抽象，因為對我們來說，一個地方旅遊警訊的高、低，你要解除與否，其實是可以很客觀的判斷。"],["邱主任委員垂正：我了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：譬如說，到什麼程度以下，還是怎麼樣；但我現在要問的是，很多人今天早上看到這樣的新聞標題─你持續推動跟評估，大家會有期待，但是點進內文裡面，完全不是這麼一回事，因為你們沒有任何一個客觀的數字，這樣還是會陷入一個惡意的螺旋。"],["邱主任委員垂正：有，我們還是有一些案例，比如今天有三位道親被對方拘捕，所以我們還是有些擔心，還是要持續宣導，也會持續評估。我們會把相關的這個機制再跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：我說實在話，大家都期待兩岸能夠正常、穩定的交流，能夠有更多元的對話，讓兩岸能夠更了解，其實在某種程度上，可能會降低這個戰爭風險跟惡意的螺旋；但若連我們主其事的大陸委員會，都沒有用一種比較客觀明確的指標，我真的很擔憂，整個賴清德政府是不是都一味的用更加惡意的方向來持續增加對立？"],["邱主任委員垂正：沒有，我們是為了國人的安全，大院的決議也要求我們維持國人的安全。"],["洪委員孟楷：大家都為了國人的安全，大家都為了2,350萬人的安全，大家都為了中華民國生存的安全，大家都為了臺灣這塊土地安全。但是除了這個以外，我們還是期待陸委會能夠扮演好你們應該扮演的角色。"],["邱主任委員垂正：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員建賓代）：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，也謝謝邱主委。","接下來羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在。","張啓楷、張啓楷、張啓楷委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","林倩綺、林倩綺、林倩綺委員不在。","林俊憲、林俊憲、林俊憲委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅、高金素梅委員不在。","現在請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-13","speakers":["徐欣瑩","張宏陸","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","王美惠","李柏毅","張智倫","黃捷","蘇巧慧","許宇甄","黃建賓","賴士葆","吳琪銘","丁學忠","王義川","葉元之","黃國昌","羅智強","沈伯洋","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請大陸委員會主任委員及財團法人海峽交流基金會董事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算；三、審查大陸委員會函送財團法\n人海峽交流基金會114年度預算書案；四、審查大陸委員會函送財團法人臺港經濟文化合作策進\n會114年度預算書案【所列預算案僅詢答，另定期處理】","agenda_id":"11311101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}