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10:19:07","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算。二、審查「公職人員選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.83659375,"end":1.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.01346875,"end":8.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.302843750000001,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.42909375,"end":21.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.715343750000002,"end":23.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.63909375,"end":24.938468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.17471875,"end":27.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.17846875,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.46471875,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.20659375,"end":39.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.501593750000005,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.72471875,"end":44.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.90159375,"end":47.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.54659375,"end":50.487218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.094718750000006,"end":52.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.13659375,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.275343750000005,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.30034375,"end":61.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.860968750000005,"end":68.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.23534375,"end":74.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.61846875,"end":76.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.49159375,"end":79.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.00159375,"end":92.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.16409375,"end":96.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.23534375000001,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.16721875,"end":100.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.97721875,"end":111.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.01471875,"end":104.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.62596875000001,"end":107.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.75534375000001,"end":118.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.44284375000001,"end":122.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.89784375,"end":147.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.00784375,"end":166.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.52784375000002,"end":173.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.80971875,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.35784375,"end":179.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.15909375,"end":181.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.55534375000002,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.83659375000002,"end":192.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.49034375000002,"end":202.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.93596875,"end":203.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.83034375000003,"end":204.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.39971875,"end":206.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.83409375000002,"end":210.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.22159375,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.19596875000002,"end":215.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.98034375,"end":217.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.68471875,"end":229.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.05409375000002,"end":243.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.22909375,"end":245.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.15284375000002,"end":246.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.68846875000003,"end":254.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.69596875000002,"end":254.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.31596875000002,"end":258.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.09596875,"end":261.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.64409375,"end":263.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.39909375,"end":266.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.44909375000003,"end":274.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.22846875,"end":276.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.91596875,"end":279.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.13909375000003,"end":291.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.74909375000004,"end":294.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.48284375000003,"end":295.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.89596875,"end":300.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.47346875,"end":311.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.46034375,"end":303.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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包括現任的部分都有不同的說法我們會把所有的意見全部收整之後做一個最對外的這個公告說明"},{"start":169.087,"end":175.591,"text":"抱歉,委員暫停一下,再麻煩你按一下麥克風,他才會開始錄音,謝謝。謝謝,感謝主席。在這裏補充一下,說明得很清楚,因為我覺得這個高麗里長,我相信無論在哪一檔都希望這樣做,所以在這個規定當中,我覺得我們要去做,"},{"start":192.74,"end":198.744,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案：計六案：計六案："},{"start":213.254,"end":221.218,"text":"貴鬧金顧報費,我相信這也不是說什麼人要找什麼人的地方買啦,這是我們看出長久以來里長的辛苦,所以大家都有提案來完成這個,我覺得這是最重要的。所以說,普通人剛才說的,我們說過了有什麼困難,有什麼做得不好,我們應該是要做得好啦。"},{"start":242.21,"end":243.371,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具"},{"start":259.125,"end":262.228,"text":"中央政府總預選舉委員會選舉罷免法是說,你來預算,在這個過程中,你做一件事。我們選舉委員會的人,你覺得你沒有達到你當時的政見及服務。"},{"start":275.299,"end":279.123,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":296.943,"end":301.345,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17年度中央政府總預算案關於中央政委委員會及所屬單位預算案。二、審查委員楊曜等17年度中央政府總預算案。"},{"start":319.392,"end":321.973,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案。"},{"start":334.86,"end":335.32,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具"},{"start":349.767,"end":351.908,"text":"因為做一項工作,他就要選一項要怎麼做的,在這個過程他剛才主委說,覺得一項太久,差不多要等半天,他會出來看他的認真,跟他的抱怨。"},{"start":365.953,"end":368.375,"text":"我是說投票的時間要查檔案。對,對,對,一定要查檔案。他想,他會出來,看會出來說,跟我們選給他,他是有人騙票了嗎?在這最要緊嘛。所以看他這個規定會做,他的委員會當時是他的鄉親會成立嘛。"},{"start":390.812,"end":393.415,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"},{"start":409.878,"end":421.586,"text":"是不可能吧?是會流動的。對啊!所以說在這個選法法裡面,我覺得大家要慎慎去評估,如果好的民意代表,我們當然要來撈下來,要繼續讓他為北省來服務。有時候他如果做得不好,未必他該做的工作的時候,"},{"start":436.107,"end":441.84,"text":"罷免,我們要這個法,要修好,不管什麼人,都是一視同仁。"},{"start":446.377,"end":447.557,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":481,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時11分）主席，請部長和主委。"],["主席：請劉部長和李主委。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：主委、部長，早安。本席要先跟部長討論我們現在為了慰勞里長，里長任滿6屆滿65歲就可以申請慰勞金，據本席所瞭解，你們給予的慰勞金是30萬，本席在這裡建議你們可能要再研議一下，我認為還有不足的地方，他已經做了6屆，這是他的青春，雖然你們是寫慰勞金，不過我覺得需要再提高一點，這部分你們再去研議。因為時代不同了，時空背景也不一樣，雖然你們說這是象徵性的答謝他們，我們還有一個獎勵和頒獎制度，我希望可以再做得好一點，不是邀請他們來，給他們一張獎狀這樣就算了，我覺得這樣不好，6屆的時間說實在也很長，所以部長有要補充什麼嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：感謝委員的關心，這個獎勵辦法我們現在在公告，是子法的公告，現在預告快結束的時候會收到很多不同的意見，包括現任和曾任里長要不要包括這一屆，或者是獎勵金30萬，或者是他有曾犯外患、內亂或涉貪的部分要不要取消，這三個意見我們會再做比較審慎的研議，在子法預告結束之後再做一下修正，再來對外做我們內政部公告的版本，當然我們都很肯定，包括很多委員很關心，像村里長在春節的慰問金，或者是久任6任以上，6任要不要連續6任，要不要包括現任的部分都有不同的說法，我們會把所有的意見全部蒐整之後，做一個對外的公告說明。"],["主席（張委員智倫代）：不好意思，暫停一下，王委員，再麻煩你按一下麥克風，才會開始錄音，謝謝。"],["王委員美惠：感謝主席。部長也說明得很清楚，我覺得鼓勵里長，我相信無論哪一黨都希望這樣做，所以在這個過程當中都要把事情做好，最近有人說民進黨謠言過年的7萬5,000元不能發、不能做什麼，早發、晚發都一定要發，尤其你們也有說明年1月17日慰勞金一個半月，我相信這也不是誰要斬誰的「稻仔尾」，只是我們看到里長長久以來的辛苦，所以大家都有提案要來完成這個部分，我覺得這才是最重要的。所以部長剛剛說的，你們公告之後如果有什麼缺點、有什麼做得不好的地方，我們應該還要做得更好，部長請回座。","再來，主委，說實在我如果問你問題，你算是內行的，我算小孩在問大人的話。"],["李主任委員進勇：客氣、客氣！"],["王委員美惠：我覺得長久以來，選罷法在這個選舉的過程中，你當選上任之後，我們這些投票給你的人覺得你沒有達到當初提出的政見以及服務的時候，百姓才會想要罷免你，是不是這樣？難道會無緣無故這樣做？如果你很認真努力為百姓、為國家著想，還把財政顧得這麼好的時候，百姓會平白無故說要罷免你嗎？有這種事情嗎？罷免是怎麼來的？主委，你是專業的，你說。"],["李主任委員進勇：其實這就是我一再跟大家報告的，選舉和罷免的時間要落差一年半，因為一年半會發生很多變化，我們社會上時常一年就做一次民意調查，大家的排名就會起起落落，這就是民意的流動，所以你不能用之前、一年半前的民意和現在的民意做比較。"],["王委員美惠：主委，我為什麼會跟你討論這個議題呢？質詢的時間也沒剩下多少，我先簡單跟你說，事後我們再來探討一下，我覺得一年看得出來一個民意代表有沒有實現他的承諾和認真，因為做一項工作就要先想好要怎麼做，在這個過程中，剛才主委覺得一年太少，差不多要一年半才看得出來他的認真和他的抱負。"],["李主任委員進勇：我是說投票的時間要差一年半，至少要差一年半。"],["王委員美惠：對，一定要差一年半以上才能看得出來，我們投票給他，他有沒有騙我們的選票，這才是最重要的，所以要看他在這個過程做了什麼，如果他違背當初他對鄉親的承諾，鄉親覺得當初被他騙了之後，過了一年、一年多之後，大家認為他沒有實現對我們的承諾時，我們要把他罷免，有可能比當初選舉時投給他的票還要多嗎？這不可能吧！"],["李主任委員進勇：這是會流動的。"],["王委員美惠：對啊！所以在選罷法裡面，我覺得大家要審慎去評估，如果他是好的民意代表，我們當然要把他留下來繼續讓他為百姓服務，他如果做得不好，違背該做的工作的時候就罷免，我們要把這個法修好，不管什麼人都要一視同仁。我們不能以前把人家罷免掉就說這個法不錯，現在換成什麼人就說這個法很差，沒人這樣啦！我還有很多問題要跟主委探討，我們質詢完再互相探討一下，以上。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席（徐委員欣瑩）：接下來請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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