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我知道你也沒準備8139人 沒錯吧?平均每年814位"},{"start":113.309,"end":139.796,"text":"公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第七十五條條文修正草案。結果你面對我們警察這麼危險的一個情惡的狀況你連幫他們爭取退休保障你都答不出來我萬分遺憾我告訴你我再給你一次機會啦你認不認爲今天我們的警察值得更好的對待"},{"start":140.786,"end":163.096,"text":"當然當然那他退休應該也要得到更好的保障是的謝謝你來請消防署你覺得我們消防打火弟兄他的退休值得更好的保障嗎這部分是的謝謝你來移民署"},{"start":166.087,"end":195.767,"text":"我們移民署的危險危牢的勤務人員值不值得更好的退休保障?是的謝謝你來 空總請問我們空總執行危牢勤務的弟兄值不值得更好的退休保障?是謝謝海巡我們海巡執行危牢勤務的弟兄值不值得更好的保障?值得"},{"start":197.283,"end":225.157,"text":"來兩位我們人事長跟部長我想請教部長五單位的心聲你聽到了嗎我跟委員報告退休人呃對這種特別呃危老人員的一個退休保障我們現在就有比一般公務員更好的保障我要問包括他的呃可以提早退休然後可以提早支援全額退休金如果他有發生我們不想見到任何不幸的時候但是今天今天我們對所得替代率我們希望對"},{"start":227.658,"end":253.21,"text":"對所以我跟你講你好好聽聽五個單位的心聲我跟委員報告我問你一個問題來我想請教您請教您部長請問我們現在國人平均壽命是多少歲男性應該七十七十六歲上下女性八十一歲我想那是男女性的平均啦我講平均啦錦霄平均的死亡年齡是幾歲"},{"start":254.437,"end":259.002,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期司法及法制委員會第13會期司法及法制委員會"},{"start":271.533,"end":274.014,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":298.919,"end":313.246,"text":"我告訴你今天警察也是男女都有我們講危險勤務人員今天我還是一句很簡單的話今天功績明天忘記不要變成今天我們政治人物的常態啦我再想請教你下一個問題來我請任市長我請任市長"},{"start":317.438,"end":339.289,"text":"年金的所謂的我們今天講所得替代率現在已經從本分的兩倍的75%掉到67%了嘛 對不對67.5了嘛 對不對剛剛我們執政黨的委員也講啊過去在砍公務員退休金這些年已經砍了兩千多億了嘛 對不對2074億2074億嘛 對不對請問我們在這邊是在反對年金改革嗎"},{"start":345.765,"end":372.594,"text":"我講不是反對大家只是針對這個意義大家對話對阿很好阿今天我只是講到一個重點也讓我們所有公教人員聽一聽今天年金改革列車啟動之後公教人員已經被砍掉兩千多億了那我再想請教你下一個問題阿我們只是說夠了吧但夠了吧是你的主觀的判斷阿夠不夠了你們自己有自己的精算的方式"},{"start":373.479,"end":386.045,"text":"可是今天過去政府在標舉所謂的年金改革你今天要除了血肉之外還要刨花他的筋骨這個邏輯建構在幾個邏輯第一個邏輯是什麼政府財政困難嘛 對不對沒錯吧都會破產嘛那我想請教您吼你支不支持我們的勞保政府負擔最終保證責任"},{"start":402.333,"end":431.316,"text":"這個我想勞動部會有整體的一個規劃問你你知道賴總統主張是什麼基本上你不會連賴總統主張都不知道來部長請問部長你知道吧賴總統政見是什麼勞保他覺得政府要怎麼樣我想政府永遠是要照顧我勞工跟所有的工作者你也不敢講你賴總統的話都不敢講賴總統就直接保證勞保政府會負擔最終保證政府只是我比他更近一步我主張要入法"},{"start":433.442,"end":433.922,"text":"二）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":463.564,"end":470.33,"text":"今天請問2020年稅收超徵多少錢?超徵多少?部長五千億啦!2023超徵多少?三千八百六十億啦!2024超徵多少?四千億啦!一邊很窮"},{"start":485.965,"end":502.7,"text":"幾千億幾千億稅收超徵這還是其次來我想請教您你覺得政府最近是不是爆發很多包括濫用就業安定基金甚至包括今天我們連政府都在反省檢討的一些所謂的國家的預算使用的問題有沒有你知道吧有看過了吧就業安定基金的浪費連勞動部我們的部長都說要去查啦有沒有"},{"start":513.367,"end":528.956,"text":"當我們的權序部長可以躲在深山當中選擇性的去接受今天只對公務員不利的一個訊息那任何對公務人員我們要討公道的訊息你全部都沒看到你當什麼權序部長啊!人事長請!我要問人事長了"},{"start":534.926,"end":562.466,"text":"你總知道吧?有看新聞吧?我也有看新聞對啊!部長學學人事長擔當人事長至少沒有像你在那邊迴避問題那我就要問一件事情你政府幾千億幾百億要嘛就掏空要嘛就浪費要嘛就閉案然後你一邊亂花錢裝潢每人每款的辦公室辦演唱會然後發包綠油油去剪輯他個人宣傳的影片"},{"start":564.005,"end":588.017,"text":"我們政府的官 浪費得很開心啊你一邊浪費一邊操作稅收來面對勞保就說政府不會倒你就對軍公教砍了兩千億說不行啊兩千億沒砍死你啊我不會放手啊我怎麼受得了今天只砍你軍公教兩千億呢我砍公務人員兩千億我受不了啊民進黨受不了啊所以在這邊我們要講的事情其實很簡單"},{"start":593.24,"end":619.345,"text":"沒有在反對什麼年改我們的訴求只有一個兩千億夠了吧還不夠阿最後阿我要跟還是跟我們任市長講任市長你應該也是文官系統出身的嘛是對不對是所以我們有相同的背景跟同理心嘛對不對我也考過剛前面有講過我也考過公務員我也當過兩年的基層公務員在公民會當科員"},{"start":621.721,"end":649.631,"text":"你覺得最近文官系統的狀況你有沒有你有沒有覺得很難過啊你看我們公務員被霸凌你有沒有很難過啊有沒有我我覺得看到這樣的一個情況我想身為人事長我當然內心會想部長你有沒有很難過你們兩個責無旁貸你知道吧公務員最大後盾靠山不就全序部不就是人事總處嗎是不是"},{"start":653.626,"end":669.495,"text":"所以我告訴你現在公務員是面兩面夾沙的困境工作沒有尊嚴被這些囂張的官員踐踏霸凌他們然後呢不斷的再去找藉口找理由砍他的退休的待遇砍兩千億不夠要繼續砍下去"},{"start":673.308,"end":697.721,"text":"今天在這邊我當然知道你我剛說過人事長跟權序部你們有兩個同樣職責同樣存在一個當然你們要去把守政府的一些人事的一些狀況另外你們也是公務人員很重要的後盾聽聽公務員心聲聽聽退休的警察消防海巡空總跟移民署的危牢勤務人心聲跟他們多溝通好不好"},{"start":699.469,"end":701.232,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時17分）主席，有請銓敘部部長、人事長，還有我們的警政、消防、移民、空總、海巡。"],["主席：麻煩了。"],["羅委員智強：我有幾個問題想先就教上述五單位的主管，請問警政署許主任，你支持增加我們警察、消防、海巡、移民、空總危勞勤務人員的退休保障嗎？"],["許主任淑貞：因為這個畢竟是屬於憲政的議題，所以我們也是配合政策，但是警政署會積極的協調相關機關。"],["羅委員智強：你支持嗎？"],["許主任淑貞：我們政策上是……"],["羅委員智強：我再問第三遍，你支持嗎？所以你答不出來……"],["許主任淑貞：因為銓敘部……"],["羅委員智強：你答不出來，我告訴你，銓敘部跟人事長如果反對，我可以理解，今天說真的，各個署長沒有到，我也是有意見的，今天請一個人事主任來，你今天不敢幫你的警察同仁代言、申言，主任請上來，請問過去10年因公傷殘、因公死亡跟殉職的警察人員有多少？我告訴你，我知道你也沒準備……"],["許主任淑貞：有！有！"],["羅委員智強：8,139人，沒錯吧？平均每年814位，因公死亡、殉職75位，結果你面對我們警察這麼危險的勤務狀況，你連幫他們爭取退休保障都答不出來，我萬分遺憾，我告訴你，我再給你一次機會，你認不認為今天我們的警察值得更好的對待？"],["許主任淑貞：當然、當然，是。"],["羅委員智強：那他退休應不應該也要得到更好的保障？"],["許主任淑貞：是的。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你。","請消防署，你覺得我們消防打火弟兄的退休值得更好的保障嗎？"],["鄭主任鴻彬：這部分是的。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你。","移民署，我們移民署危險、危勞的勤務人員值不值得更好的退休保障？"],["顏主任韶儀：是的。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝你。","空總，請問我們空總執行危勞勤務的弟兄值不值得更好的退休保障？"],["翁主任文珍：是。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝。","海巡，我們海巡執行危勞勤務的弟兄值不值得更好的保障？"],["程主任旺順：值得。"],["羅委員智強：來，兩位，我們人事長跟部長。我想請教部長，這五個單位的心聲你聽到了嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，這種危勞人員的退休保障，我們現在就有比一般公務人員更好的保障。"],["羅委員智強：我要問你……"],["施部長能傑：包括他可以提早退休，然後可以提早支領全額退休金，如果他有發生我們不想見到的任何不幸的時候，事實上也都比……"],["羅委員智強：但是今天我們對於所得替代率，我們希望……"],["施部長能傑：所得替代率……"],["羅委員智強：所以我跟你講，你好好聽聽這五個單位的心聲。"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，所得替代……"],["羅委員智強：我問您一個問題，我想請教部長，請問我們現在國人平均壽命是多少歲？"],["施部長能傑：男性應該76歲上下，女性84歲。"],["羅委員智強：81歲。"],["施部長能傑：我想那是男女性的全體平均。"],["羅委員智強：我講平均啦！警消平均的死亡年齡是幾歲？"],["施部長能傑：應該七十幾，也跟國人的男性平均不會差太多。"],["羅委員智強：75歲，短6年的命。"],["施部長能傑：我想跟委員報告，警消主要是男性為主體。"],["羅委員智強：部長，有沒有壽命比較短？你告訴我啊！"],["施部長能傑：當然跟全國比較起來……"],["羅委員智強：有沒有？告訴我啊！你跟我在玩數學問題！"],["施部長能傑：我不是玩數學問題，我在跟委員報告說，警消是以男性為主體。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我真的聽你這樣回答，在這邊扯東扯西，我非常難過啦！你去好好跟旁邊5個單位……5個單位準備跟你協調啦！你只要告訴我今天有沒有？"],["施部長能傑：我在講一個事實，事實大概是76歲上下，我們國人的男性大概76歲上下。"],["羅委員智強：我告訴你，今天警察也是男女都有，我們講危險勤務人員，今天我還是一句很簡單的話，今天公祭明天忘記，不要變成今天我們政治人物的常態啦！","我再想請教下一個問題，我請人事長，年金所謂的所得替代率，現在已經從本俸兩倍的75%掉到67.5%了，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，67.5%。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛我們執政黨委員也講啊！過去在砍公務員退休金，這些年已經砍了兩千多億了，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：2,074億。"],["羅委員智強：2,074億，對不對？請問我們在這邊是在反對年金改革嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想不是反對，大家只是針對這個議題在對話。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！很好啊！今天我只是強調一個重點，也讓我們所有的公教人員聽一聽，今天年金改革列車啟動之後，公教人員已經被砍掉兩千多億了，那我再想請教你下一個問題，我們只是說夠了吧！當然夠了吧是你的主觀判斷，夠不夠你們自己有自己的精算方式，可是過去政府在標舉所謂的年金改革，你今天除了血肉之外，還要刨挖他的筋骨，這個建構在幾個邏輯上，第一個邏輯是什麼？政府財政困難，對不對？沒錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上我們希望……"],["羅委員智強：說會破產嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：年金可以永續，還有兼顧到世代正義的問題。"],["羅委員智強：那我想請教您，你支不支持我們的勞保由政府負擔最終保證責任？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想勞動部會有整體的一個規劃。"],["羅委員智強：我問你，你知道賴總統的主張是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上……"],["羅委員智強：你不會連賴總統的主張都不知道？來，部長，請問部長，你知道吧？賴總統的政見是什麼？勞保他覺得政府要怎麼樣？"],["施部長能傑：我想政府永遠要照顧勞工跟所有的工作者。"],["羅委員智強：你也不敢講，連賴總統話都不敢講，賴總統就直接保證，勞保政府會負擔最終保證責任，只是我比他更進一步，我主張要入法，那問題來了，第一個，我的主張是一致的啊！今天遇到我們辛苦的廣大勞工，我認為政府要負擔最終保障責任，然後你們跟我講說，勞保財務有困難，沒有關係，反正政府不會倒。可是今天遇到公教人員，你就說政府會倒啦！基金就不能永續啦！財政就會很困難啦！這不叫雙標，什麼叫雙標？","第二個我要講，請問2020年稅收超徵多少錢？超徵多少？部長。"],["施部長能傑：我看報紙，好像是比預算的額度多了5,000億啦！"],["羅委員智強：5,000億啦！2023年超徵多少？3,860億啦！2024年超徵多少？4,000億啦！一邊喊窮，幾千億、幾千億稅收超徵，這還是其次，我想請教您，你覺得政府最近是不是爆發了很多包括濫用就業安定基金，甚至包括今天我們連政府都在反省檢討一些所謂的國家預算使用的問題，有沒有？你知道吧？有看到吧？就業安定基金的浪費，連勞動部的部長都說要去查啦！有沒有？有沒有？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，這不是我主管的業務。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，當我們的銓敘部長，可以躲在深山當中，選擇性的去接受今天只對公務員不利的訊息，那任何對公務人員我們要討公道的訊息，你全部當作沒看到，你當什麼銓敘部長啦！"],["施部長能傑：我想跟委員報告，銓敘部的責任是……"],["羅委員智強：人事長請，我要問人事長了，你總知道吧？有看新聞吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我有看新聞。"],["羅委員智強：對啊！部長，學學人事長的擔當，人事長至少沒有像你這樣迴避問題。那我就要問一件事情，你政府幾千億、幾百億，要嘛就掏空、要嘛就浪費、要嘛就弊案，然後你一邊亂花錢，裝潢美輪美奐的辦公室，辦演唱會，然後發包綠友友去剪輯他個人宣傳的影片，我們政府的官浪費得很開心啊！你一邊浪費，一邊超徵稅收，面對勞保就說政府不會倒，然後對軍公教砍了2,000億，說不行啊！2,000億沒砍死你啊！我不會放手啊！我怎麼受得了今天只砍你軍公教2,000億呢？我們砍公務人員2,000億，我受不了啊！民進黨受不了啊！所以在這邊我們要講的事情其實很簡單，沒有在反對什麼年改，我們的訴求只有一個，2,000億夠了吧？還不夠啊？","最後，我還是跟我們人事長講，人事長你應該也是文官系統出身的，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以我們有相同的背景跟同理心，對不對？剛前面有講過，我也考過公務員，我也當過兩年的基層公務員，在公平會當科員。你覺得最近文官系統的狀況，你有沒有覺得很難過？你看我們公務員被霸凌，有沒有很難過？有沒有？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：看到這樣的一個情況，我身為人事長，我當然內心非常難過。"],["羅委員智強：部長，你有沒有很難過？"],["施部長能傑：有。"],["羅委員智強：你們兩個責無旁貸，你知道吧？公務員最大的後盾、靠山，不就是銓敘部，不就是人事總處嗎？是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["施部長能傑：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以我告訴你，現在公務員是面臨兩面夾殺的困境，工作沒有尊嚴，被這些囂張的官員踐踏、霸凌他們，然後不斷地再去找藉口、找理由砍他退休的待遇，砍2,000億不夠，要繼續砍下去。今天在這邊，我當然知道你……我剛剛說過，人事長跟銓敘部你們有兩個同樣職責、同樣存在，一個當然是你們要去把守政府的一些人事的狀況，另外，你們也是公務人員很重要的後盾，聽聽公務員的心聲，聽聽退休的警察、消防、海巡、空總跟移民署的危勞勤務人員的心聲，跟他們多溝通好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一直都有在溝通。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝您。以上。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位我們請鍾佳濱召委進行詢答。","然後我們作會議程序的預告：上午會議進行到12點，如果到時候有委員正在詢答，就到該委員詢答結束後休息，預計休息時間1小時，下午會議提前至1時開會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}