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11:14:03","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算。二、審查「公職人員選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.08846875,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.855968750000002,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.43284375,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.242843750000002,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.62659375,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.988468750000003,"end":32.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.88659375,"end":39.501593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.63659375,"end":41.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.26909375,"end":67.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.30721875,"end":70.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.97346875000001,"end":74.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.61846875,"end":78.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.18721875,"end":81.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.67221875,"end":81.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":85.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.57034375,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.58221875000001,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.57346875,"end":93.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.68721875,"end":95.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.18471875,"end":97.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.44596875,"end":101.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.04034375,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.56721875000001,"end":111.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.31721875000001,"end":118.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.48909375000001,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.12159375,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.42721875,"end":137.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.21596875,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.78846875000002,"end":147.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.80534375000002,"end":153.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.77909375000002,"end":162.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.97596875000002,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.68034375000002,"end":166.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.24971875,"end":166.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.82346875000002,"end":167.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.91596875000002,"end":170.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.38409375,"end":175.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.80096875,"end":179.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.22221875000002,"end":191.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.97596875000002,"end":197.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.96284375000002,"end":193.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.70471875,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.53534375,"end":205.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.80034375000002,"end":210.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.61409375000002,"end":214.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.52909375000002,"end":215.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.01409375,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.36409375000002,"end":219.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.62534375,"end":221.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.19034375,"end":224.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.53159375,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.26971875,"end":228.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.12596875000003,"end":232.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.58096875,"end":234.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.36971875,"end":237.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.83346875,"end":238.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.63909375000003,"end":242.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.28409375,"end":247.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.07659375000003,"end":269.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.64284375,"end":275.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.44784375,"end":277.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.91159375,"end":284.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.94846875,"end":287.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.68221875,"end":290.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.27659375,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.48284375000003,"end":301.0809687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"包含徐巧欣原本她當選的票數89727票依照現行的罷免制度投票當天給她的人認為她要罷免她的票數是58704票如果今天通過這個加一的版本"},{"start":287.963,"end":300.722,"text":"變成八萬九千七百二十八票比五萬八千七百零四票的版本多增加百分之一百五十三另外一個葉寅芝委員也一樣增加百分之一百三十四"},{"start":301.975,"end":321.955,"text":"這個就是人民當初把票投給你的時候就應該有這個罷免的權利你當選了之後要馬上把這個罷免的權利收回第一招先用這個身份證門檻第二招再用加一我認為生生不可啦所以在這邊必須要對"},{"start":324.777,"end":336.987,"text":"負責的對全國人民負責的對所有可以行使公民權利的人民來表述我們不支持這一個修法的門檻即使它是雙保險"},{"start":339.286,"end":363.901,"text":"謝謝委員不管是對於這個聯署的時候的國民身份證影本以及當選這個罷免案要多於當選的時候多一票這兩個修正的案子呢在選務機關的立場上我們其實認為應該要非常的審慎甚至於我們認為啦限制是不宜做任何的更改"},{"start":364.738,"end":390.034,"text":"投票的當天我在投票給這個立法委員或投票給這個縣市長我當年高雄市八十九萬人投票給韓國瑜的時候他就認為他應該好好的第一次來高雄選舉好好的當市長在隔年他宣布要選總統所有的人生氣所以當年會有超過八十九萬票"},{"start":391.072,"end":415.673,"text":"的同意罷免韓國瑜的人數到達93萬票這個以後也不會有了啦這個已經是空前的了但是人民記得那時候整個公民運動記得其實罷免的門檻不需要到這麼多其實只要到幾萬票就可以了只要到25%同意大於不同意就可以了現在"},{"start":416.889,"end":433.638,"text":"投給立委也一樣當年投給傅坤祺總召68786票同樣的只要48442票就可以罷免傅總召你今天要把他提高到68787票提高142%這個不是詐騙集團的作為 這個是什麼"},{"start":440.621,"end":446.751,"text":"這個就是詐騙集團啊這個就是你投我的時候那個罷免權我突然我當選之後我來自肥"},{"start":447.611,"end":474.09,"text":"然後再來提高這些種種的這些限制騙的是人民啦騙的是人民啦有一點迷思啦就是說你當初投票支持我之後你的立場沒有任何的改變一直到這個罷免案提出來的時候你還是站在當初支持我的那個立場那這個是沒有實證根據的這個是站不住腳的就是說"},{"start":475.754,"end":486.129,"text":"經過一年半的時間即便是當初投票支持的人他的立場也可能會變化他可能也會流向這個投票支持罷免"},{"start":489.357,"end":507.258,"text":"對,我們反對這個行為。最後,我也希望今天有非常非常多也是區域立委,也有部分區域的立委都來內政委員會來參與這個討論。希望可以給大家完整的討論,不要中途又議程有什麼樣的變化,我們希望可以"},{"start":507.558,"end":508.56,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":631,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（11時5分）謝謝，我們請中選會李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝主委。其實今天在審的選罷法裡面當然還有幾個內容，但是其中會讓人民覺得最被限縮罷免門檻的其實就是當選票數加一這一題，其實這一題我也覺得是假的，真的是在上一次11月20號時韓院長召集的政黨協調裡面形式上通過的二讀版本，他形式上協調完的二讀版本，就是罷免連署要加身分證影本這件事情，其實已經真正限縮人民的罷免權，主委，你怎麼看？我這樣舉例，在11月20號韓院長召集完這個協調，11月21號我就收到2020年當年在高雄市領銜罷免韓國瑜的領銜人尹立的電話，他告訴我這件事情多嚴重，以當年要罷免韓國瑜市長的時候來講，高雄市兩百多萬個公民數，當年如果有這個罷免連署需要身分證影本的規定，就必須要繳交最少23萬份高雄人的身分證影本，當年2020年的時候罷韓團體是送繳了40萬份連署書，另外自己再備40萬份連署書存底，送到高雄市選委會，讓高雄市選委會來做查核。","我們今天在內政委員會審理的這個加一，其實是國民黨版的雙保險之一，第一個，罷免門檻加身分證其實已經沒收了人民的罷免權利，也就是說如果還要再罷免一次高雄市長，當時罷免韓國瑜，必須要收到高雄市民超過25萬份的身分證影本，這是多大的事情啊！主委，你覺得這可行嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：關於連署必須要檢附連署人的國民身分證影本這一點，我們的立場最主要基於兩點理由，我們認為是不宜，第一個理由，就是這是對於公民參政權的限制，允宜要審慎……"],["李委員柏毅：對。"],["李主任委員進勇：現行的制度沒有窒礙難行。第二個……"],["李委員柏毅：主委，你講到公民權的一部分，我再提，今天還有一個案子，除了加一之外還有一個案子，也就是不得提議不得成案，中選會，接下來你接的案子會接不完，有某某人、民眾、任何公民團體，對於立法委員或對於縣市長，縣市長已經過了，對於立法委員當天的言行或主張認為是有問題的話，在網路上公開貼文批評要罷免，這樣算不算提議？這樣算不算成案？這樣如果中選會接收到相關檢舉的時候，怎麼樣來處理？這也是今天的提案之一。所以說種種這種限制人民權利的主張，我們都認為必須要審慎，必須要讓社會很清楚地知道，現在內政委員會、現在立法院、現在國民黨團提出來的版本到底是怎麼樣限制人民的權利。我在這邊這樣主張，剛剛我也看到其他不在內政委員會的國民黨團的委員都有來關心這個案子，也就是加一的這個案子，包含徐巧芯，他當選的票數是8萬9,727票，依照現行的罷免制度，要罷免他的票數是5萬8,704票，如果今天通過這個加一的版本，變成需要8萬9,728票，比5萬8,704票的版本多增加153%，另外一個葉元之委員也一樣，增加134%。這就是人民當初把票投給你的時候就應該有這個罷免的權利，你當選了之後，要馬上把這個罷免的權利收回，第一招先用這個身分證門檻，第二招再用加一，我認為深深不可啦！所以在這邊必須要負責地對全國人民、負責地對所有可以行使公民權利的人民來表述，我們不支持這個修法的門檻，即使它是雙保險。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員，不管是對於連署時需要檢附國民身分證影本，以及罷免案要多於當選票一票，這兩個修正的案子，在選務機關的立場上，我們其實認為應該要非常地審慎，甚至於我們認為現制不宜做任何的更改。"],["李委員柏毅：投票的當天，我在投票給這一個立法委員，或投票給這一個縣市長，當年高雄市89萬人投票給韓國瑜的時候，他第一次來高雄選舉，他就應該好好地當市長；再隔年他宣布要選總統，所有的人生氣，所以當年會有超過89萬票，同意罷免韓國瑜的人數到達93萬票，這個以後也不會有了啦，這個已經是空前了。但是人民記得，那時候整個公民運動，其實罷免的門檻不需要到這麼多，只要到幾萬票就可以了，只要到25%同意大於不同意就可以了。現在投給立委也一樣，當年投給傅崐萁總召6萬8,786票，同樣地，只要4萬8,442票就可以罷免傅總召，你今天要把他提高到6萬8,787票，提高142%，這個不是詐騙集團的作為，這個是什麼？這個就是詐騙集團啊，就是你投我的時候，那個罷免權在我當選之後，我來自肥，然後再來提高種種的這些限制，騙的是人民啊、騙的是人民啊！"],["李主任委員進勇：有一點迷思啦，就是你當初投票支持我之後，你的立場沒有任何改變，一直到這個罷免案提出來，你還是站在當初支持我的那個立場，這是沒有實證根據的，這是站不住腳的，就是經過一年半的時間，即便是當初投票支持的人，他的立場也可能會變化，他可能也會流向投票支持罷免。"],["李委員柏毅：對，我們反對這個行為。","最後，今天有非常、非常多，也有區域立委，也有不分區的立委都來內政委員會來參與這個討論，希望可以給大家完整的討論，不要中途議程又有什麼樣的變化，我們希望可以很完整地來討論這些事關人民直接民權的修法，我們必須要審慎地來對人民負責，在這邊提出，謝謝。"],["李主任委員進勇：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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