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了幾個國家的?所以我要整理嘛。你完全不知道嗎?我知道了一些。你知道哪幾個?美、英、美、日、德這四個國家你們知道嗎?我請我們的同仁來說明一下。"},{"start":62.091,"end":74.605,"text":"直接回覆就是說英美日德這四個國家有沒有收集過目前有目前都知道那本席也要請教主委以一些國家他們的罷免門檻"},{"start":76.988,"end":79.89,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":105.117,"end":128.285,"text":"投票,您知道這個情況嗎?您對這樣子一些先進國家他們這樣的規定您的看法?這個很多國家規定的這個門檻不一而足,不一而足。但是有一點是可以確定的,就是任何國家沒有拿罷免票數跟當選票數來做比較的。"},{"start":129.065,"end":136.409,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公�"},{"start":152.556,"end":176.348,"text":"這個人他犯了重罪所以他應該被罷免我們可能10%投票門檻是10%但是投票門檻10%之前他必須要是符合他有重罪他有貪污他有被停權、被停職所以本席要表達的就是這個部分您有思考過嗎?"},{"start":177.429,"end":194.148,"text":"也就是說人家是前面的條件他有一定的條件然後才訴諸民眾的投票這方面因為沒有相關的提案所以我們也沒有做資料的收集跟說明但是今天針對這個提案就是"},{"start":195.109,"end":199.053,"text":"二、審查委員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":218.442,"end":237.594,"text":"在選舉期間有很多的訊息、詐騙、頻傳,您知道這種情況嗎?深受其害。深受其害。所以啊,進入罷免的時候,如果這個門檻過低,也極有可能錯誤的假訊息甚至媒體不時的報導,其實誤導了民眾。這一塊你有思考過嗎?"},{"start":245.319,"end":248.262,"text":"有多少比例受訪者有不實訊息讓民眾感到擔憂已經是國際的普遍現象"},{"start":267.04,"end":292.551,"text":"就聯合國2023年的調查,就是去年。您知道有多少比例者是非常擔心假訊息對於整個投票的影響?您知道有多少比例呢?你不知道?那本席告訴你,87%。有87%的民眾都對這個非常的擔憂。是,相當嚴重。好,那中選會你們的職責是不是應該要審慎的採取選舉,這就算選舉違規案件吧?"},{"start":298.231,"end":312.003,"text":"有關於錯假訊息的處理尤其是怎麼樣能夠去破解跟澄清那這一點在選務的錯假訊息防治的部分中選會做得還算不錯了中選會對於有這種錯假訊息你們有沒有阻止並且澄清"},{"start":317.848,"end":327.351,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":338.633,"end":354.492,"text":"有一些假訊息你們所謂牽涉到你選務什麼選務針對不實的誣衊候選人的你們有處理嗎?沒有嘛!我們沒有處理嘛!如果有相關違反選罷法的規定當事人舉發的話我們會依法來處理"},{"start":357.264,"end":383.669,"text":"但是我們過去看到你們並沒有進行處理有啦有有有有進行處理那好應該要你們要維持公平公正中立你們不可以不不不聞不問啊我們不會介入當事人的工房但是如果有違反選罷法的案件的時候我們是會處理的這些假訊息你們會去會去協助澄清跟阻止過去看到是沒有必須要是違反選罷法"},{"start":385.222,"end":389.846,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．計六案．"},{"start":402.671,"end":410.761,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計六案．計七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．計八條及第六十九條條文修正草案．"},{"start":423.676,"end":443.767,"text":"這個在修正案裡面我們也表達了我們的意見因為沒有就職他可能的原因是相當的多包括死亡、陰暗羈押所以你們的立場態度但是我們並沒有根據去追回這個保證金或者是補貼款沒有這個根據"},{"start":446.684,"end":470.836,"text":"所以還是會發嗎?還是會發。那這個有人覺得說這個應該要扣留,你們的看法?我們的意見是請大家要審慎啦,因為這個不依而逐啦,不依而逐,原因不依而逐。那如果他是不是他不就職,他不就職又要重新辦一次選舉,所以保證金應該是他已經完成選舉應該還給他。"},{"start":472.617,"end":483.802,"text":"審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":729,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時28分）謝謝主席，本席請李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：召委好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。李主委，本席首先想請教您，剛剛您在答詢的時候好像有講到，你們現在準備要開始收集外國的罷免門檻的規定，是這樣嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們有若干資料了，有若干資料……"],["徐委員欣瑩：若干是多少？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們整理好之後再給……"],["徐委員欣瑩：整理好了沒？有可能在今天中午以前提供嗎？有現成的嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：可以，有現成的資料，我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們收集了幾個國家的？"],["李主任委員進勇：所以還要整理嘛。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你完全不知道嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我知道了一些，但是還在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你知道哪幾個？英、美、日、德這四個國家你們知道嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我請我們的同仁來說明一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就直接回復英、美、日、德這四個國家有沒有蒐集過？"],["謝主任秘書美玲：英、美、日、德目前有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：目前都知道？"],["謝主任秘書美玲：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。那本席也要請教主委，以一些國家的罷免門檻，他們的門檻條件很多都比較嚴格，所謂比較嚴格就是，不是民眾連署就能罷免，很多是這位民意代表可能有犯什麼刑事罪，他有犯什麼虛假申報津貼或者他被停職，要有這些條件之下才進入投票，您知道這個情況嗎？您對一些先進國家這樣的規定，您的看法怎麼樣？"],["李主任委員進勇：很多國家規定的門檻不一而足，但是有一點是可以確定的，就是任何國家沒有拿罷免票數跟當選票數來做比較的，沒有任何一個國家，因為這種比較是沒有意義的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我現在沒有要跟您討論那個，對，所以我們現在……"],["李主任委員進勇：但這很重要，這是今天的法案……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要浪費我的時間。我現在在跟您探討的就是罷免，世界各國對於罷免的門檻，我要講的就是我們臺灣就是不足，我們對於罷免門檻並沒有規定，這個人他犯了重罪，所以他應該被罷免，然後我們可能投票的門檻是10%，但是投票門檻10%之前，必須要符合他有重罪、他有貪污、他有被停權、被停職，所以本席要表達的就是，這個部分您有思考過嗎？也就是說人家的罷免制度是前面要符合一定的條件，然後才訴諸民眾的投票。"],["李主任委員進勇：這方面因為沒有相關的提案，所以我們也沒有做資料的蒐集跟說明。但是針對今天的提案，就是罷免票數要多於當選票數，全世界各國的立法例都沒有，這很清楚的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我還沒跟您討論到那個。好，剛剛有講世界各國你們目前有蒐集到的，如果可以，那就麻煩您看是不是在12點半以前提供給本委員會的各位委員？"],["李主任委員進勇：好，沒有問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這是第一個。第二個，本席要跟你請教的就是在選舉期間有很多的詐騙訊息頻傳，您知道這種情況嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們深受其害。"],["徐委員欣瑩：深受其害？好。所以，進入罷免的時候，如果門檻過低，也極有可能錯誤的假訊息，甚至媒體不實的報導而誤導了民眾，這一塊您有思考過嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：我想也可能會發生。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。本席接著就要講，您知道有多少比例受訪者，就是選舉甚至罷免期間，這個都一樣，選舉、罷免要投票前，有不實的訊息讓民眾感到擔憂已經是國際的普遍現象，就聯合國2023年，也就是去年的調查，您知道有多少比例的民眾非常擔心假訊息對於整個投票的影響，您知道有多少比例嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：這個數據我們不知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您不知道？那本席告訴你，87%，有87%的民眾都對這個非常的擔憂。"],["李主任委員進勇：是，相當嚴重。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。那中選會你們的職責是不是應該要審慎的裁處，這個算是選舉違規案件吧，算不算？"],["李主任委員進勇：第一個，有關於錯假訊息的處理，尤其是怎麼樣能夠去破解跟澄清，這一點在選務的錯假訊息防制的部分，中選會做得還算不錯的，還算不錯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對於這種錯假訊息，你們中選會有沒有阻止並且澄清，針對候選人或者是被罷免人的各種假訊息，你們會處理嗎？有處理嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：牽涉到我們選務的部分，我們一定在第一時間來澄清，而且……"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼叫做牽涉到你們選務？"],["李主任委員進勇：而且我們跟相關的平臺業者都有緊密的聯繫。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有一些假訊息你們……所謂牽涉到你們選務是指什麼選務？針對於不實的、污衊候選人的，你們有處理嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：那必須要是當事人之間……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有嘛，你們沒有處理嘛。"],["李主任委員進勇：如果有違反選罷法的相關規定，當事人舉發的話，我們會依法來處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我們過去看到你們並沒有進行處理。"],["李主任委員進勇：有啦，有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有進行處理？"],["李主任委員進勇：有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那好，應該要，你們要維持公平、公正、中立，你們不可以不聞不問。"],["李主任委員進勇：我們不會介入當事人的攻防，但是如果有違反選罷法的案件的時候，我們是會處理的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對這些假訊息你們會去協助澄清跟阻止？過去看到是沒有耶！"],["李主任委員進勇：必須要是違反選罷法，必須要違反選罷法……"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼叫違反選罷法？譬如什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：如果是他們當事人之間的攻防，我們沒有辦法去認定他的對錯是非，但是如果有違反選罷法的嫌疑時，我們就必須要做事實的調查。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！過去看到你們就是沒有做好。"],["李主任委員進勇：有啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，最後本席要請教您，對於已經當選人因故沒有就職的情形，你們會不會把保證金還有他的選舉補助發還給他？"],["李主任委員進勇：關於這個部分，我們對修正案也表達了我們的意見，因為沒有就職可能的原因相當多，包括死亡、因案羈押……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以你們的立場態度是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：但是我們並沒有根據去追回保證金或者是補貼款，沒有這個根據。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以還是會發嘛？"],["李主任委員進勇：還是會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還是會發，可是有人覺得這個應該要扣留，你們的看法是什麼？"],["李主任委員進勇：我們的意見是請大家要審慎，因為這個原因不一而足，不一定完全可以歸罪……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是不是他不就職就又要重新辦一次選舉？所以如果他已經完成選舉，應該將保證金還給他，但是因為他沒有就職，造成要再一次選舉，好像也是在浪費公帑，那是不是補助款可以考慮……"],["李主任委員進勇：經過大家充分的討論，如果修法通過了，我們就按照修正通過的條文來執行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩召委，謝謝李主委。","接下來我們請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林俊憲","張雅琳","林思銘","黃秀芳","許智傑","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","王義川","莊瑞雄","廖先翔","林宜瑾","林淑芬","賴惠員","傅崐萁","陳素月","吳秉叡","王正旭","徐富癸","邱志偉","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","郭昱晴","林月琴","邱議瑩","李昆澤","葉元之","陳瑩","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算；二、審查「公職人員\n選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七\n條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六\n十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正\n草案」案、(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1140201_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}