{"error":false,"id":["157888"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157888,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157888","日期":"2024-12-05","影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-05T11:43:08+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-05T12:02:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:19:20","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d213377ed28df258c8fa99904554a4baaac06b08ba57c1938fd604f80897a2691b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:43:08 - 12:02:28","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.91221875,"end":8.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.598468750000002,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.594093750000003,"end":14.982218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.184718750000002,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.62346875,"end":16.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.95659375,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.049718750000004,"end":97.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.05784375,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.05721875,"end":167.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.07221875000002,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.18034375000002,"end":181.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.58909375000002,"end":185.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.16221875000002,"end":191.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.76471875000001,"end":205.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.29846875,"end":207.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.49221875,"end":211.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.17096875000001,"end":216.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.85784375,"end":224.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.83971875,"end":228.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.24409375000002,"end":297.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.09409375,"end":333.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.35846875000004,"end":336.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.34096875,"end":345.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.19659375000003,"end":347.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.88409375000003,"end":346.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.96409375,"end":350.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.74409375000005,"end":353.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.12784375,"end":366.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.22284375000004,"end":366.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.35346875000005,"end":366.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.43784375,"end":366.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.45471875000004,"end":376.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.79909375,"end":381.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.19909375000003,"end":382.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.41846875000005,"end":382.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.45221875000004,"end":382.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.32971875000004,"end":391.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.13846875,"end":393.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.11284375,"end":396.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.30221875,"end":402.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.87096875000003,"end":409.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.19909375000003,"end":416.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.37096875000003,"end":420.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.33221875000004,"end":496.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.64096875,"end":501.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.92721875,"end":503.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.30659375000005,"end":510.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.56284375,"end":521.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.44721875,"end":524.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.7378437500001,"end":532.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.4497187500001,"end":541.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.54971875,"end":546.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.1015937500001,"end":547.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.3034687500001,"end":552.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.93159375,"end":556.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.8047187500001,"end":569.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.0178437500001,"end":575.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.82284375,"end":582.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.2140937500001,"end":609.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.9228437500001,"end":614.4834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.1584687500001,"end":660.248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«人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":156.264,"end":185.303,"text":"而這個議題呢相當的複雜而且當時社會沒有討論過民眾也不了解更荒謬的是議題裡面這樣問請問你讚不讚成針對某些特殊狀況在有相關配套和管理的條件下將代理孕母技術納入規範提供經過評估有特殊需要的民眾欸這個問題很好笑什麼叫有特殊情形那相關配套又是什麼有管理的條件是什麼"},{"start":186.664,"end":204.355,"text":"統統不知道然後將代理孕母技術納入規範規範是什麼不知道然後去問你說支不支持還有一個問題是這樣問的政府如果制定法律配套其實可以允許某些民眾在特定條件下和規範下委託他人代孕請問你比較贊成哪一種狀況"},{"start":205.977,"end":227.576,"text":"政府如果制定法律配套,配套內容是什麼?問卷內容不知道。然後允許民眾在特定條件下,特定條件是什麼?也沒有說清楚。通通都不清不楚,不明不白,條件沒有設定,然後就這樣去隨便亂問。然後得出來結論說這個叫做社會共識。這個是太荒謬了吧。所以我們今天在講"},{"start":229.458,"end":235.104,"text":"這一些問題不明確沒有定義然後強烈的誘導性所以調查的可信性不具備所以在這裡我們要講兩場公民共識會議還有電話民調時隔已久社會變遷大而且經過他國的代孕的經驗及新視角的加入社會已經有新的看法"},{"start":253.002,"end":259.464,"text":"擬具不具民意代表性的公民審議會議以及沒有可信度的電訪作為現在修法的討論基礎而聲稱代孕制度是國人共識是沒有說服力的更不要講賴總統23年前怎麼說這個是太荒謬的從年初衛福部的兩場公聽會還有預告人工生殖法修正草案後社會的反應來看今年最新的"},{"start":281.332,"end":297.137,"text":"公聽會各界的公聽會來看多數的意見都主張開放人工生殖法適用對象應與代理孕母脫鉤處理而且認為現在台灣社會根本不具有得以開放代孕的條件"},{"start":298.777,"end":323.949,"text":"還有二十年來社會的變遷這麼大不論支持或反對都需要先讓社會對這個議題有更多的理解而且要理性討論是否要有代孕制度而不是在共識不足的狀況裡面討論根本就沒有社會對話沒有足夠的社會討論下直接就進入由上而下透過少數幾個人的意志然後就"},{"start":326.59,"end":355.025,"text":"透過多數決然後進入這個馬上就完成立法這樣子是不行的部長你們到底是怎麼態度啊我們當然是專業跟開放然後站在人民的健康開放什麼啦開放什麼開放代理孕母嗎不是我是說開放的態度來接收大家的信息現在你們接受到的態度是什麼啊接受的態度就是因為"},{"start":355.985,"end":381.156,"text":"在前面兩個主題那個共識度高所以我們建議這兩個來先行讓社會更多人照顧社會更多的人前面的兩個主題是什麼是那個單身女性還有那個同性女同性那那個至於代理孕母因為他的爭議分歧真的太大那我剛剛講公民會議和電話民調的可信度呢你覺得呢"},{"start":383.383,"end":396.217,"text":"因為陳昭芝委員一直以20個人參加,她自己打臉當時的公民審議會議的共識。我們再來看一下,我早上念過嘛,這個是什麼時候的報紙。"},{"start":397.678,"end":420.09,"text":"九十三年八月二十五號的禮拜三的報紙中國時報第一遭代理育母公民預備會議二十個人代表確定沒錯二十個人當時陳昭之委員怎麼講二十個人的結論難抵立院民意認為我把它講了那個報導內容最右邊的內容唸一次給大家看"},{"start":421.451,"end":438.48,"text":"文中提到,爭取代理孕母合法化的和信醫院藥劑科主任陳昭智認為,公民共識會議的20個人根本不具公民代表性。他指出,藥品臨床試驗如果找20個人來做實驗,一定不能代表母體。"},{"start":440.12,"end":449.443,"text":"檢驗結果只能以個案認定,自然科學都有這一類的限制了。稍微科學的範圍更廣泛,20個人怎麼能夠代表台灣公民的意見呢?他說,就台灣2300萬的人口來說,20個人實在是太少了。要說這些人的意見是公民共識,科學基礎上站不住腳,不足以說服大眾。"},{"start":465.167,"end":476.372,"text":"維生署如果以20個人討論結果為政策依據,將來出爐的草案怎麼在立法院說服看法不同的立委呢?我就是要用他的話來告訴陳委員。你當時所認為沒有代表性的公民共識會議,今天"},{"start":484.196,"end":496.386,"text":"你卓飛金氏今天動不動就把這個沒有代表性的你口中所聲稱的沒有代表性的公民會議拿出來當你支撐的理由和所謂的有共識欸2004、2012都只有20個人參加了欸這個叫做有社會共識嗎結果陳委員現在是公民會議的這個還有這個民調結果為推動立法的規念"},{"start":511.618,"end":516.761,"text":"我們真的覺得這樣薄弱的支撐來講說有社會共識 這個絕對不是事實好 那我接下來講說剛才很多委員就講說我們不要商業化的出租子宮 我們要利他的利他代孕生小孩 利他代孕啦終究只是一個掩蓋工具化女性的騙局啦"},{"start":541.638,"end":547.58,"text":"我舉一個台大法律系陳昭儒教授的講法。我們可以這個真實世界每個人所擁有的資本跟籌碼都不一樣。你願意幫人家代孕的同意經常是在不平等的狀況下給出去的。"},{"start":570.117,"end":570.558,"text":"有人說陳委員一直講求子是他的夢想是人性"},{"start":575.902,"end":597.097,"text":"但是呢,你有沒有想過道德上並不是你有需求就要被滿足這個是陳昭如這個教授講的即便是近年盛行的生育權的論述也不見得能推導出代孕合法這常被類比的就是器官買賣我們不會認為為了保障一個人的生命權"},{"start":601.94,"end":605.902,"text":"擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。netesle等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案»案。נס"},{"start":610.987,"end":613.449,"text":"此風一開,代孕合法化了以後,大家都知道都是有錢人要去買經濟弱勢人的子宮來出租出借。"},{"start":633.448,"end":642.593,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員陳菁徽等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由．事由�"},{"start":660.763,"end":662.404,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":699.985,"end":712.528,"text":"在代孕的過程,代孕者他的家人、他的家庭、先生、小孩、父母、公婆都要一起投入。他的生活都深受影響,而他的雇主、他的同事都要配合他的懷孕及生產而調整作業。"},{"start":714.728,"end":737.718,"text":"所以它不是只有出租、子宮、個人的付出家庭、職場都是代孕的一環在集體的付出都沒有被看到第二個最重要的代孕絕對是健康風險的轉嫁你不可以簡化成只是代理生一個小孩根據台女聯所供應的資料來看"},{"start":738.758,"end":741.961,"text":"大運是人工生殖技術的進行但是這種技術35歲以下的活產率大概是35%所以代理孕母平均要經過2.5到3次的懷孕週期才能成功要試驗這麼多次"},{"start":763.298,"end":783.01,"text":"對身心健康有很大的影響而懷孕到生產都有一定的風險在台灣認成性的糖尿病發生率17%認成性的高血壓發生率10%還有子顛前症產後大出血、羊水酸篩、剖腹產子宮切除胎兒新生兒產婦死亡"},{"start":784.491,"end":797.037,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第1次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次聯席會議．立法院第2次"},{"start":811.343,"end":825.973,"text":"所以代孕不是替人家懷孕生殖而已而是承接了委託者在懷孕生產中的所有風險甚至是死亡的可能性。部長你有掌握這樣的數據嗎?包委員我沒有掌握到這麼詳細的一個數據,非常敬佩。你聽了以後你覺得做何感想?"},{"start":839.696,"end":855.791,"text":"所以還在那裡講只能利他為了反對商業化只能利他還要壓低人家的價格事實上本質上這是健康風險的轉嫁除了少數真的是為了親朋好友願意付出以外其實現在都是經濟優勢的強要人家經濟弱勢者的子宮出借"},{"start":863.505,"end":869.347,"text":"等19人擬具、「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":891.003,"end":892.946,"text":"擬具〈人工生殖法部分條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":906.348,"end":910.79,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件"},{"start":926.056,"end":946.973,"text":"所謂的利他代孕事實上是代理孕母全部身心和生活的投入和長期的付出又有難以避免的風險還要事後身體健康的所有代價因此決定要代孕的人多為有經濟壓力的弱勢對於弱勢者的高度付出給予最低的費用"},{"start":948.396,"end":968.165,"text":"只有那你們自己定義的必要的費用,這個就是剝削。利他代孕本質就是一個掩蓋工具化女性的騙局。我們不要再回過頭來,代孕生小孩不是生理自主權的展現,他是傷害生理自主權。我們剛剛講了啊,"},{"start":970.746,"end":985.255,"text":"在民主的社會身體的自主我的身體我自己決定那你可以說我要販賣我自己自願當奴隸民主社會可以允許嗎這個自願所謂自願背後通常代表的是貧窮啊我們不會允許是因為他踐踏了人性的尊嚴所以我們剛剛講說活體器官的捐贈法律也不允許啊如果你允許開放了多少人想要自願捐肝啊"},{"start":1000.339,"end":1015.29,"text":"但是我們知道活體捐肝很多都是要當時我們認為不可以五等親以外不可以是因為防止藉著善心自願之名請買賣之時的剝削所以我們這樣把它禁掉了在這種狀況裡面我們其實是還開放五等親五親等是為了成全病患求生的需求"},{"start":1028.28,"end":1036.089,"text":"檢過了相當程度是個人的意願和選擇和病患的求生的需求是為了救人而不得不"},{"start":1037.788,"end":1064.444,"text":"所以現在有些人用身體自主權來合理化代理孕母時我們都覺得說你是在說什麼?真的有人願意嗎?除了至親最愛為了那個少數的生理缺陷的真的有我相信有但是開放了以後大多數大多數都不是大多數都不是更不要講我最後講代理孕母是父權文化壓迫女性的產物"},{"start":1065.745,"end":1093.735,"text":"剛剛有委員說我領養了一個但是我還是要生一個完成我的夢想我追求的夢想你只想到你自己的夢想你有沒有想到被你生出來的小孩你滿足了個人想要自己血清的孩子的願望但是你讓代理孕母付出巨大的代價侵犯人的尊嚴和完整性衝擊社會的價值而且為社會製造了更多的問題"},{"start":1094.995,"end":1106.019,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第1次聯席會議：立法院第2次聯席會議：立法院第3次聯席會議：立法院第4次聯席會議：立法院第5次聯席會議：立法院第6次聯席會議：立法院第7次聯席會議：立法院第8次聯席會議：立法院第9次聯席會議：立法院第10次聯席會議：立法院第11次聯席會議：立法院第12次聯席會議：立法院第13次聯席會議：立法院第14次聯席會議：立法院"},{"start":1121.084,"end":1138.387,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":1138.547,"end":1157.376,"text":"其實版本也不用念了,因為等行政院院版的話,版本其實也不用進行。我們今天是應該詢答,大家討論,然後就結束。等到院版進來,我們再主條,然後當時再來宣讀版本,不是更完備嗎?所以在這裡建議一下主席,拜託主席,謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}