{"error":false,"id":["157894"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157894,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157894","日期":"2024-12-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-36-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-05T13:02:08+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-05T13:16:30+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21f2a743cba192719bd143e698449c70dc871116ad264925f569935296c30cbcfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"13:02:08 - 13:16:30","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.262218750000001,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.08846875,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.075343750000002,"end":23.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.15971875,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.95971875,"end":24.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.51471875,"end":37.594718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.24846875,"end":43.079093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.95221875,"end":50.588468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.094718750000006,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.56096875,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.18534375,"end":65.70846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.36596875000001,"end":71.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.91846875,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.55534375,"end":73.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.51721875,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.86721875,"end":75.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.88409375,"end":78.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.34346875,"end":80.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.33471875000001,"end":85.08096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.12721875000001,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.37159375,"end":89.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.78471875000001,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.33721875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.37909375000001,"end":96.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.60221875,"end":99.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.75784375,"end":101.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.97284375000001,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.11159375000001,"end":107.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.19534375,"end":110.84909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.76034375,"end":113.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.67096875000001,"end":118.81409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.60721875,"end":123.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.41659375,"end":127.84221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.88846875000002,"end":132.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.81596875,"end":136.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.97159375,"end":137.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.27534375000002,"end":137.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.35971875,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.03471875,"end":139.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.44784375,"end":149.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.55596875,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.96909375,"end":155.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.55096875,"end":155.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.20909375000002,"end":164.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.66034375,"end":159.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.76471875000001,"end":169.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.46846875,"end":171.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.51034375,"end":174.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.54346875000002,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.33909375000002,"end":189.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.21659375000002,"end":189.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.31346875,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.97159375,"end":191.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.47346875000002,"end":195.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.29971875,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.91096875000002,"end":202.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.18909375,"end":204.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.36596875,"end":212.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.06096875,"end":217.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.27534375000002,"end":219.42284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.79409375,"end":221.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.40971875000002,"end":223.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.26596875,"end":227.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.86034375000003,"end":230.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.18909375,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":230.25659375,"end":230.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.32409375,"end":231.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.02846875,"end":236.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.88846875000002,"end":242.18721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.32221875000002,"end":243.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.84096875,"end":247.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.36784375000002,"end":249.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.35471875000002,"end":251.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.95784375000002,"end":254.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.74221875,"end":257.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.04971875,"end":265.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.94721875,"end":268.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.95096875,"end":269.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.46534375000005,"end":272.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.16971875,"end":274.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.39721875000004,"end":276.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.38846875,"end":281.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.23159375,"end":283.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.98659375,"end":284.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.11721875,"end":286.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.93971875,"end":287.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.74534375,"end":297.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.00971875000005,"end":300.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.45659375,"end":301.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.36346875000004,"end":303.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.23659375,"end":305.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.26159375000003,"end":307.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.59471875,"end":309.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.04596875000004,"end":309.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.28221875,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.98659375,"end":311.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.30284375,"end":314.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.49221875,"end":316.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.63971875000004,"end":317.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.98534375,"end":322.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.71034375,"end":324.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.63846875,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.02534375000005,"end":349.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.63034375,"end":349.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.30534375,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.67221875,"end":355.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.04284375000003,"end":357.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.76409375000003,"end":358.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.50221875,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.52721875000003,"end":365.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.42534375,"end":374.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.78659375,"end":381.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.03471875,"end":381.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.50721875000005,"end":381.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.55784375,"end":381.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.21596875,"end":382.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.23284375000003,"end":386.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.87346875000003,"end":390.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.84721875,"end":395.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.22221875,"end":398.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.73659375000005,"end":402.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.74846875000003,"end":404.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.79034375000003,"end":407.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.32159375000003,"end":410.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.10596875000005,"end":413.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.40096875,"end":415.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.96596875,"end":423.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.93096875000003,"end":426.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.10346875000005,"end":428.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.39846875,"end":447.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.89346875,"end":448.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.58096875,"end":450.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":451.55534375,"end":453.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":454.13721875000005,"end":467.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.68784375,"end":469.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.13471875000005,"end":472.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.84721875,"end":478.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.70721875000004,"end":481.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.01471875000004,"end":485.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.89596875,"end":487.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.53284375000004,"end":498.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.60284375000003,"end":501.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.96096875,"end":509.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.53346875000005,"end":513.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.68909375,"end":514.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.35971875,"end":520.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.87784375,"end":539.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":540.41909375,"end":540.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.97159375,"end":544.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.46909375,"end":547.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.7465937500001,"end":566.3559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.74409375,"end":572.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.36346875,"end":573.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.32534375,"end":574.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.97909375,"end":576.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.5990937500001,"end":577.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.0334687500001,"end":580.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.61096875,"end":583.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.44596875,"end":594.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.87471875,"end":597.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.4397187500001,"end":599.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.7934687500001,"end":602.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.89034375,"end":604.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.81409375,"end":607.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.1384687500001,"end":612.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.89221875,"end":617.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.90909375,"end":618.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.74846875,"end":620.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.7397187500001,"end":628.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.02971875,"end":633.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.3159687500001,"end":647.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.3897187499999,"end":655.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.81534375,"end":651.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.40596875,"end":651.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.3503437500001,"end":656.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.3840937500001,"end":664.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.1928437500001,"end":673.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.98471875,"end":682.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":683.16471875,"end":697.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":698.2678437500001,"end":700.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.89221875,"end":699.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.2590937500001,"end":707.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.5828437499999,"end":709.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.9240937500001,"end":713.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.2947187500001,"end":725.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.1115937500001,"end":726.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.16221875,"end":734.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.51534375,"end":747.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":744.64034375,"end":745.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.2053437500001,"end":755.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.4922187500001,"end":748.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":752.4365937500002,"end":755.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":755.27159375,"end":755.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.30534375,"end":755.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":755.3897187500002,"end":758.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.8828437500001,"end":761.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.09784375,"end":760.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":761.1272187500001,"end":761.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.63346875,"end":763.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":763.0678437500001,"end":771.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.89784375,"end":776.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.28096875,"end":777.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":778.4072187500001,"end":780.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":781.73159375,"end":788.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":788.86971875,"end":790.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":791.0803437500001,"end":800.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":798.87659375,"end":799.9397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":799.9397187500001,"end":799.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":800.59784375,"end":803.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":804.1584687500001,"end":812.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":812.6297187500002,"end":814.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.7053437500001,"end":818.4853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.10971875,"end":819.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":819.97034375,"end":820.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":820.00409375,"end":820.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.83096875,"end":820.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":823.21034375,"end":824.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":825.9778437500001,"end":827.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":828.25596875,"end":842.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":842.51534375,"end":843.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":844.0847187500001,"end":858.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":858.91784375,"end":859.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":860.04846875,"end":861.4153437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.75,"end":24.435,"text":"謝謝主席,是不是可以麻煩有請我們的權敘部施能傑施部長公務人員退休撫卹基金管理局陳局長那還有我們的內政部消防署的鄭主任鄭主任"},{"start":36.787,"end":50.244,"text":"三位好第一個針對有關於公務人員在辦公室自殺身亡現在依法可不可以辦理因公服序"},{"start":51.541,"end":74.297,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在有一個程序任何因公撫蓄都是由機關提報以後送到部裡面那部裡面會有專案小組這一項的做法是這樣由專案小組來認定但是我還是跟委員補充報告過去我們自殺一般是就當成病故死亡例上是這樣講的我們接下來往後看因為讓整個社會都非常難過非常悲憤"},{"start":81.377,"end":105.673,"text":"我們勞動部勞發署北分署的公務員因為在職場遭受了霸凌不幸輕生了當時在11月19號的時候我們的勞動部說他們肯定他的勞苦奉獻會給他勞動部勞動獎章當然給他勞動獎章"},{"start":111.849,"end":137.668,"text":"此時此刻還有什麼意義?」大家或許都會有這個問號勞動部進一步說會向考試院爭取認定因公傷亡的公務員撫蓄補償那目前勞動部的這個案子送到考試院沒有?我的意見 至少我們部裡面沒有接到那針對勞動部說"},{"start":140.489,"end":168.814,"text":"他要去爭取認定因公傷亡部長您的看法如何我跟委員報告我想這是一個法制的一個程序他只要送來我們就會開會討論所以完全按照委員會的討論對委員會討論是不是要本於法律對是本於法律嗎對來看一下公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第52條的規定自殺死亡比照病故或意外死亡認定這個就是剛剛部長"},{"start":170.506,"end":194.792,"text":"你所講的內容嗎?那所以現在勞動部是在講空話嗎?不是很清楚勞動部當初的一個講法不過我們站在部裡面的立場就是有任何希望變成因公腐敘就由機關報來讓我們組成狀態小組根據法律去審查我希望我們的考試院在進行這件事情的審議的時候"},{"start":197.495,"end":218.472,"text":"雖然在法條的規定上認為說如果是自殺的話他不會用因公撫卹自殺的話我們基本上是比照病故或意外死亡的方式來處理因為部長應該也很熟悉依照公務人員退休之前撫卹法第53條第56條的規定他撫卹"},{"start":224.335,"end":250.767,"text":"最後給他們遺族的金額事實上差異會蠻大的到底是因公還是在自殺的情況之下認為意外身故但我希望藉由這個質詢幫忙請命的事情是什麼幫忙請命的事情是說如果他不是因為自己其他的因素選擇結束自己的生命而是"},{"start":251.994,"end":269.282,"text":"他在工作的職場上面因為遭受到長官的霸凌沒有辦法接受這麼巨大的身心壓力而選擇結束自己生命的話這個時候來請部長看一下53條53條第二項第二款的規定"},{"start":275.444,"end":299.681,"text":"在辦公場所發生意外或危險事故或遭受暴力事件以致死亡。」我希望我們的選區部在審定我希望未來不要有相同的案子我希望未來不要有相同的案子但是恐怕要跟單純的自殺要做一個區別的對待"},{"start":300.663,"end":301.023,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":323.772,"end":349.326,"text":"在撫蓄事由的認定上面全序部必須要做出比較合理的認定部長您贊同嗎我想法律有一些不同的條款那我們在委員會討論的時候就根據機關送來的解釋或者相關的事證人然後由這個專案小組去處理我想這個委員應該也很能夠提亮我這樣的一個講法當然啦我只希望"},{"start":350.807,"end":372.366,"text":"勞動部不是只會對外講空話講漂亮話就要落實做好對於不幸往生這位年輕的公務員遺族的保障這個是我質詢的重點等你們認定出來結果出來了以後看是不是可以適時的讓"},{"start":375.831,"end":404.264,"text":"本委員會的委員大家知道你們認定的基準認定的結果最後是什麼這樣應該沒有問題吧等我們這個案子送來一定會按程序處理來接下來請消防署的同仁我上次在開公聽會的時候我問說因為我們目前公務人員保障法下面所設的安慰辦法訂得太爛了"},{"start":405.931,"end":428.019,"text":"十年都沒有修啊所以很多基層的警消事實上他們是要爭取把它放到治安法裡面那消防署不肯消防署說啊我們在消防法裡面設專章來保護他們的安全那我們11月的時候消防法修正三讀通過"},{"start":429.488,"end":450.544,"text":"那我們總統日前也公告但問題是施行細則由你們消防署來定我上一次針對於警消同仁權益的保障召開公聽會的時候你們消防署的同仁跟我說施行日期要等到五年要等到五年這個計畫有沒有改變"},{"start":452.039,"end":453.36,"text":"在我這一場公聽會舉辦完了以後我在"},{"start":473.888,"end":500.703,"text":"考試委員同意權行使的程序上把這件事情正式的拉上檯面以後第二天我看到內政部急急忙忙發了新聞稿說六個月內會修正相關的執法同步施行所以現在行政院針對有關於消防法的保障現在六個月就可以公告施行了對不對"},{"start":502.052,"end":502.953,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":515.424,"end":516.504,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":542.218,"end":547.072,"text":"接下來請教一下我們這個退府基金的局長"},{"start":550.785,"end":580.085,"text":"之前全序部在今年3月的書面報告因為我們在去年7月1號的時候新進的公務同仁我們都從確定給付制改採成確定提撥制了用個人退休金專戶因此退撫基金的這個水庫裡因為沒有新的錢可以流進來所以就必須政府要去撥補那個時候全序部所提出來的書面報告"},{"start":582.166,"end":596.834,"text":"針對有關於撥補的額度有十年、十五年、二十年三種不一樣的方案。你看我們如果分二十年撥補會比分十年撥補政府會多付710億這個是全巨部的報告應該沒有錯吧?是嗎?但問題來了"},{"start":604.878,"end":627.807,"text":"我們基層的軍公教啊就出來抗議啊行政院為什麼沒有依照十年的方案啊撥補退輔基金可以啊是豬友分年撥補這個都一定是按照法律來做只是撥補的期層呢當然站在"},{"start":629.373,"end":654.922,"text":"全區部跟我們有一個監理會會期待說越快撥補越好那我們就把根據那個10年的錢送到行政院行政院會在總預算裡面去討論那我想很多單位都跟行政院要錢就行政院綜合考量那最後呢大概今年明年開始要選擇用是20年的那個錢撥補進來所以我想過程是這樣一個所以未來都還是用20年撥補是不是我們會希望行政院未來至少就是用這個為最低的底線應該這樣講"},{"start":656.823,"end":681.779,"text":"來我為什麼請局長上來我們來看一下審計部一百一十二年度中央政府總決算副主單位決算的審核報告在這個審核報告當中在這個審核報告當中我上面寫拒付拒付其實就是你們局裡面付的你們局裡面付的是什麼已經召開政府編列預算撥補公教人員退府基金執行事宜會議"},{"start":683.48,"end":697.525,"text":"學習部及教育部依該會的決議每年度應該撥補公教人員的額數分別是194億跟123億合計317億這個是10年的撥補方案嗎?沒有錯這是補補裡面的回覆那你們回覆說未來會依照會議的決議繼續辦理現在我的問題就來了就是說我從審計部的報告裡面看到"},{"start":710.947,"end":711.647,"text":"三）委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":737.734,"end":738.494,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":759.296,"end":768.362,"text":"會議的決議分十年撥補嗎?然後到行政院了以後改變成二十年撥補嗎?我事實上只希望利用這次詢答的機會讓大家知道問題的關鍵在哪裡因為你如果選序部也好"},{"start":781.769,"end":802.902,"text":"退府基金的管理局也好都是按照會議的決議提上去的話那問題的關鍵就在行政院問題的關鍵如果在行政院問你們考試院對你們也不公平因為我只要確認你們當初的確是按照會議的決議給提上去的只是到行政院按照部長的說法他們有不一樣的考量"},{"start":804.209,"end":805.01,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":825.981,"end":827.342,"text":"三）委員張智倫等19人擬具"},{"start":842.591,"end":843.352,"text":"條文賴士葆等19人擬具"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":679,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時2分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請我們銓敘部施能傑施部長、公務人員退休撫卹基金管理局陳局長，還有內政部消防署的鄭主任。"],["主席：施部長、陳局長、鄭主任。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，針對有關公務人員在辦公室自殺身亡，現在依法可不可以辦理因公撫卹？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我們現在有一個程序，任何因公撫卹都是由機關提報以後送到部裡面，部裡面有專案小組，一向的作法是這樣，由專案小組來認定。"],["黃委員國昌：是，OK，好。"],["施部長能傑：但是我還是跟委員補充報告，過去自殺一般是就當成病故死亡，法律上是這樣講的，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：我們接下來往後看，因為讓整個社會都非常難過，非常悲憤啦！我們勞動部勞發署北分署的公務員，因為在職場遭受了霸凌，不幸輕生了，當時在11月19號的時候，我們勞動部說肯定他的勞苦奉獻，會給他勞動部勞動獎章，當然，給他勞動獎章在此時此刻還有什麼意義？大家或許都會有這個問號。勞動部進一步說，會向考試院爭取認定因公傷亡的公務員撫卹補償，目前勞動部的這個案子送到考試院沒有？"],["施部長能傑：至少我們部裡面沒有接到。"],["黃委員國昌：針對勞動部說它要去爭取認定因公傷亡，部長，您的看法如何？"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，我想這是一個法制的程序，它只要送來，我們就會開會討論。"],["黃委員國昌：所以完全按照委員會的討論？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["黃委員國昌：委員會討論是不是要本於法律？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["黃委員國昌：是本於法律嘛！"],["施部長能傑：對，有稽核的機制。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來看一下，公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第五十二條的規定，「自殺死亡比照病故或意外死亡認定」，這個就是剛剛部長所講的內容嘛？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在勞動部是在講空話嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我不是很清楚勞動部當初的一個講法，不過，我們站在部的立場，有任何希望變成因公撫卹，就由機關報來，我們組成專案小組根據法律去審查。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望考試院在進行這件事情審議的時候，雖然在法條的規定認為如果是自殺的話，他不會用因公撫卹，自殺的話，我們基本上是比照病故或意外死亡的方式來處理。部長應該也很熟悉，依照公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第五十三條、第五十六條的規定，最後給他們遺族的撫卹金額，事實上差異會蠻大的。"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：到底是因公，還是在自殺的情況之下認為意外身故？我希望藉由這個質詢幫忙請命的事情是什麼？幫忙請命的事情是，如果他不是因為自己其他的因素選擇結束生命，而是他在工作的職場上面，因為遭受長官的霸凌，沒有辦法接受這麼巨大的身心壓力，而選擇結束自己生命的話，這個時候請部長看一下，第五十三條第二項第二款的規定，在辦公場所發生意外或危險事故，或遭受暴力事件，以致死亡。我希望未來不要有相同的案子，但是銓敘部在審定的時候恐怕要跟單純的自殺要做一個區別的對待。","部長剛剛講得很好，我們要建立制度，這我百分之百同意啊，一樣的標準一體適用下去！但問題是，如果今天是因為遭受到霸凌、不堪這樣子的壓力，而不幸選擇走上這樣子的道路，我希望在撫卹事由的認定上面，銓敘部必須要做出比較合理的認定。部長，你贊同嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我想法律有一些不同的條款，我們在委員會討論的時候就根據機關送來的解釋，或者相關的事證，然後由專案小組去處理，我想委員應該也很能夠體諒我這樣的一個講法。"],["黃委員國昌：當然啦，我只希望勞動部不是只會對外講空話，講漂亮話，就要落實啊！做好對於這位不幸往生年輕公務員遺族的保障，這個是我質詢的重點。等你們認定出來、結果出來了以後，是不是可以適時的讓本委員會的委員大家知道，你們認定的基準、認定的結果最後是什麼？"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣應該沒有問題吧？"],["施部長能傑：好，等我們這個案子送來一定會按程序處理。"],["黃委員國昌：接下來，請消防署的同仁。我上次在開公聽會的時候，我問因為目前公務人員保障法下面所設的安衛辦法訂得太爛了，10年都沒有修啊！所以很多基層的警消，事實上他們是要爭取把它放到職安法裡面，但消防署不肯，消防署說要在消防法裡面設專章來保護他們的安全，我們11月的時候消防法修正三讀通過，總統日前也公告，但問題是施行細則由你們消防署來訂定。","我上一次針對警消同仁權益的保障召開公聽會的時候，你們消防署的同仁跟我說施行日期要等到5年，這個計畫有沒有改變？"],["鄭主任鴻彬：跟委員報告一下，這是我們業務單位當時所擬定的一個職安計畫，不過現在我們的新聞稿裡面有說6個月之內會完成所謂相關子法的推動，我們會儘快的在6個月之內去施行。"],["黃委員國昌：在我這一場公聽會舉辦完了以後，我在考試委員同意權行使的程序上，把這件事情正式的拉上檯面以後，第2天我看到內政部急急忙忙發了新聞稿，說6個月內會修正相關的子法，同步施行，所以現在行政院針對有關於消防法的保障，6個月就可以公告施行了，對不對？"],["鄭主任鴻彬：照新聞稿裡面的內容應該是這樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望這件事情引發了這麼多我們第一線打火弟兄的關心，內政部可能也知道茲事體大，5年以後才施行到底是一個什麼概念啦！社會上有很多人大家都沒有辦法接受啊！發了新聞稿說6個月要施行這件事情，就要說到做到啊！我希望消防署要能夠把這樣子的立場，清楚的跟內政部、跟行政院表達，可以嗎？"],["鄭主任鴻彬：委員，是。"],["黃委員國昌：接下來請教一下退撫基金的局長。之前銓敘部在今年3月的書面報告，因為我們在去年7月1號的時候，新進的公務同仁都從確定給付制改採成確定提撥制了，用個人退休金專戶，因此，退撫基金的水庫裡，因為沒有新的錢可以流進來，所以就必須政府要去撥補，那個時候銓敘部所提出來的書面報告，針對撥補的額度有10年、15年、20年三種不一樣的方案。你看，政府如果分20年撥補會比分10年撥補多付710億，這個是銓敘部的報告，應該沒有錯吧？"],["陳局長銘賢：是。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，那問題來了，我們基層的軍公教就出來抗議，行政院為什麼沒有依照10年的方案撥補退撫基金？"],["施部長能傑：委員，這個是不是由我來回答？"],["黃委員國昌：可以啊。"],["施部長能傑：我想是這樣，當初有分年撥補，這一定都是按照法律來做，只是關於撥補的期程，當然站在銓敘部跟我們的監理會會期待越快撥補越好，我們就把那個10年的錢送到行政院，行政院會在總預算裡面去討論，我想很多單位都會跟行政院要錢，行政院的綜合考量，大概明年開始要選擇用20年的錢撥補進來，所以過程是這樣……"],["黃委員國昌：所以未來都還是用20年撥補，是不是？"],["施部長能傑：我們會希望行政院未來至少就是用這個為最低底線，應該這樣講。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我為什麼請局長上來，我們來看一下審計部112年度中央政府總決算附屬單位決算的審核報告，在這個審核報告當中，我上面寫「據復」，「據復」其實就是你們局裡面復的，你們局裡面復的是什麼？已經召開政府編列預算撥補公教人員退撫基金之執行事宜會議，銓敘部及教育部依該會決議，每年度應該撥補公教人員的額數分別是194億跟123億，合計317億，這個是10年的撥補方案嘛。"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯，這是部裡面的回復。"],["黃委員國昌：你們的回復說：未來會依照會議的決議繼續辦理。現在我的問題就來了，我從審計部的報告裡面看到，你們會議的決議是要依照10年撥補，這是你們給審計部的報告，但是實際上在做的又是分20年撥補，所以我想要利用這個機會請教一下，這到底是怎麼回事？"],["施部長能傑：我想跟委員報告，這就像很多行政機關在編列總預算的時候，各機關都想要這麼多錢，然後送給行政院主計總處去做一個通盤的檢討，我想這就是一個程序，站在部裡面的立場，因為委員會當初有一個決議，那是在我上來之前，他們希望分10年，所以我就根據10年編預算給主計總處。"],["黃委員國昌：但是後來被行政院打槍嘛。"],["施部長能傑：行政院有一個總體的考量，我必須這樣講，在行政部門服務，我們就尊重……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我的意思是說，從考試院銓敘部的立場，當初是按照會議的決議分10年撥補嘛？"],["施部長能傑：對、對。"],["黃委員國昌：到行政院了以後改變成20年撥補。"],["施部長能傑：我還是要講，這是正確的，行政院是這樣的考量，不過總預算編製的權在行政院。"],["黃委員國昌：我只希望利用這次詢答的機會讓大家知道問題的關鍵在哪裡，因為銓敘部也好、退撫基金的管理局也好，都是按照會議的決議提上去的話，那問題的關鍵就在行政院嘛，問題的關鍵如果在行政院，問你們考試院也不公平，因為我只要確認你們當初的確是按照會議的決議提上去的，只是到了行政院，按照部長的說法，他們有不一樣的考量，對吧？"],["施部長能傑：我想行政院還是會確保這個基金要分年撥補，這是沒有問題，只是他的速度因為在總預算的規模下，他們會確保這個基金該撥補的一定會撥補。"],["黃委員國昌：因為上一次這些老師、全教總的朋友們召開記者會時就有提出這樣子的呼籲，對行政院做這樣子喊話，事實上也有執政黨的立委一起參加那場記者會，贊成這樣的看法，讓大家知道關鍵在行政院整體預算的調配上，讓他們知道問題的關鍵跟問題的核心在哪裡，這是我希望在這次詢答時能夠去釐清的問題，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}