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13:29:48","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":0.58784375,"end":1.0265937500000002,"speaker_score":0.91},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":14.67846875,"end":16.31534375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":23.18346875,"end":23.99346875,"speaker_score":0.91},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":23.99346875,"end":40.21034375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":40.73346875,"end":58.705343750000004,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":58.94159375,"end":70.83846875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":71.31096875,"end":73.92659375000001,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":74.71971875,"end":77.03159375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":77.82471875,"end":99.30659375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":100.96034375,"end":105.97221875000001,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":107.00159375000001,"end":111.38909375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":111.52409375,"end":114.44346875000001,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":114.57846875000001,"end":115.43909375000001,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":116.75534375000001,"end":130.35659375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":130.50846875000002,"end":132.26346875000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":132.95534375,"end":136.73534375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":137.39346875,"end":138.94596875000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":139.67159375,"end":142.91159375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":143.09721875,"end":146.03346875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":146.28659375,"end":148.75034375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":149.91471875000002,"end":153.20534375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":153.99846875,"end":155.41596875000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":155.73659375,"end":162.95909375000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":163.97159375,"end":167.53221875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":168.15659375,"end":172.47659375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":172.91534375,"end":177.18471875,"speaker_score":0.91},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":177.50534375,"end":184.91346875000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":186.65159375000002,"end":188.17034375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":188.25471875000002,"end":190.38096875000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":190.93784375,"end":193.65471875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":194.54909375000003,"end":203.18909375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":203.77971875,"end":208.20096875000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":209.60159375,"end":231.04971875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":231.69096875000002,"end":235.79159375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"吳委員思瑤","start":236.43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非常同意,那時候我在大學教書,我知道年改對我衝擊是很大的。"},{"start":177.58,"end":184.403,"text":"所以您也認為為了下一代大家都要能夠一起來實踐世代正義這是誰說的話呢這是馬英九總統2013年1月30我所引用的是總統府的新聞稿"},{"start":194.785,"end":207.922,"text":"羅志強委員現在是立委當時他就是總統府的副秘書長我相信馬英九總統記者會在宣誓這樣立場的時候羅志強就在身旁下一頁"},{"start":209.639,"end":232.778,"text":"我國年輕制度有三個缺點經費不足行業不平世代不均所以我們要務實提出可行的改革方案年輕制度影響到社會當中許多人的未來今天不做明天會後悔當時也身為大學教授的您也聽到了馬英九總統的宣誓這是他11月21號在2012年的新聞稿"},{"start":236.522,"end":240.275,"text":"所以我非常同意今天全序庫做的報告裡頭的一句話"},{"start":243.492,"end":271.249,"text":"整個年改是跨越藍綠執政都要永續前進我非常同意這是跨越政黨因為這是世代正義所以馬英九做不到的民進黨做到了2018年7月1號年改終於完成立法院的修法正式上路那個時候我是第一任的立委蔡嬌我記憶非常的深刻為了"},{"start":272.544,"end":288.413,"text":"請年改我們立委連審查議案要進入立法院行經的過程都要受到非常多發動抗爭不理性的這些朋友對我們施以的暴力威脅"},{"start":289.878,"end":291.679,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":305.828,"end":317.053,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等19人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫"},{"start":335.41,"end":357.288,"text":"加上我們連兩年的撥補294億加總起來是我們合計挹注了3068.6億我想就交於部長今天聽您口頭說明的時候我想再釐清一下我們扣除政府兩年的撥補目前2774億主要挹注於退府"},{"start":358.257,"end":364.238,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":382.577,"end":390.417,"text":"那麼換言之真的去動用到退休公務員的那個月退休金的部分就很少"},{"start":391.257,"end":416.469,"text":"到目前為止其實還很少扣到很少扣到所以這是事實所以現在很多退休的軍工叫出來說已經影響剝奪了我的生活基本所需是這樣嗎我們的統計數字現在七成大概七成左右的退休人員大概有月退休金額5.1萬5萬1左右那這個每一個人當然生活需求不一樣不過純粹"},{"start":418.009,"end":441.578,"text":"五二一大概是現役的公務同仁的八成薪吧?差不多平均值嘛平均值我講的是平均值那我想應該這樣講我還是要強調一件事情退休制度的設計的退休所得是在照顧個人是退休者以退休者做思考是以退休者延伸的家庭或是其他的一個其他生活"},{"start":442.005,"end":453.855,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公"},{"start":469.369,"end":482.125,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":489.053,"end":500.164,"text":"但是我們同樣要保障現在成為擔任國家的中間分子的現役公務人員還有下一代更多的公務同仁他們的權益我們來看OECD國家"},{"start":504.312,"end":520.689,"text":"歐益斯迪國家以2022年的資訊他們實質的一個退休的所得替代率是61.4這是歐益斯迪國家台灣現在是逐步的我們希望十年"},{"start":521.589,"end":539.769,"text":"從七八成可以緩降到六成但以你們的報告告訴我們因為現在我們是用本俸兩倍來作為分母換言之目前如果停在今年大概是67.5但是那是明目上實質上的月退是多少他的所得替代率就是八成"},{"start":544.053,"end":556.623,"text":"所以換言之在今年我們所有退休公務同仁他的所得替代率一公位可能過期的薪水是十萬他現在一公位因為他退休了他可以領到八萬讓我們所有的公務同仁哇 世代正義在哪裡我們看下一頁"},{"start":566.84,"end":581.569,"text":"高齡少子化我早上也說了各國的年金制度一直在檢視一改二改三改所以今天在野黨委員會提出修法來檢視我們上路六年的年改可以當然可以可是國際的趨勢是"},{"start":583.49,"end":584.651,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":613.971,"end":640.073,"text":"我看外電的報導確實很多國家是因為他的財務狀況必須要做一些改變所以說如果台灣的年改可以檢討真的可以檢討但是就要符合真實的國家能夠負擔的那個能力絕對不是越改越鬆我再佔用一點點時間我們來到才化法那一頁"},{"start":642.325,"end":659.525,"text":"剛剛黃國昌委員說他認為你們原本希望用10年來撥補我們的退府基金他認為為什麼最後變成20年您的說明非常的清楚每個部門去跟中央主計要錢的時候我當然希望要更多"},{"start":660.626,"end":684.915,"text":"但是因為要分給所有的部會大家都有需求所以最後是用20年來撥補如果所以我們這兩年是撥了294億嘛對不對對如果如果才化法就是新生事物6000多億被搬走了政府的財政負擔更重了而且這些退休撫蓄的部分是中央來承擔的"},{"start":686.736,"end":694.989,"text":"那麼我們有能力做到穩定的撥補預算給退府基金嗎?這個新生事物對於未來的撥補您的預測是什麼?"},{"start":696.823,"end":724.907,"text":"所以可能就越撥越少所以我們的基金永續就越來越遙不可及更可能造成我們基金破產的年限就會提前所以我也請提案再修正我們年改法案的在野黨委員們要多多思考當你們一手修財化法要掏空中央國庫的收入"},{"start":726.348,"end":738.887,"text":"另一首卻又要求改年改然後要終止年金改革要增加政府財政的loading然後剛剛民眾黨的委員又要求20年撥補太慢了要10年撥補這不是鬼打牆嗎?"},{"start":742.532,"end":760.086,"text":"一手挖錢一手討錢我認為就財政論財政這個會期是預算會期我們要合理來看看中央有多少可用的財源我再一次說如果政府做得到擴大對於退休人員的照顧我絕對支持"},{"start":761.667,"end":779.68,"text":"但是政府做得到同樣也要照顧保障現役的公務人員這才是世代正義所以這個修法我們一定要審慎以對謝謝主席才是您願意召開公聽會我希望公聽會能夠越多越好當初馬英九總統的時候全國開了124場座談會我們不應當為快而快為休而休抱歉佔用了多一點時間謝謝主席謝謝部長"},{"start":790.828,"end":791.213,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:16:37+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:16:49.551500+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:16:49.551500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:17:02.103000+08:00","text":"委員午安。午安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:17:02.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:17:22.689000+08:00","text":"年金改革不走回頭路，世代正義不能開倒車，如果今天快速的審查，沒有公聽會就直接處理，那對於很多利害相關人的權益沒有辦法被多元的發聲，當然民進黨阻擋這樣的法案，是因為我們支持改革要永續。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:17:24.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:17:35.192000+08:00","text":"民眾黨的8席在立法院成為這個議案非常關鍵的支持力量，到底民眾黨要站在挺改革還是反改革？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:17:36.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:17:53.638000+08:00","text":"只是滿可惜的，過去在時代力量時的黃國昌委員，他對於當時蔡英文總統啟動的年改方案大聲撻伐，認為民進黨改得不夠多，正義的實踐不夠快。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:17:54.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:18:24.066000+08:00","text":"所以我剛剛聆聽了前一位黃國昌總召的發言，作為民眾黨的召集人，我非常期待，我一直試圖努力在他剛剛的發言裡頭能夠聽到民眾黨會延續他們最重視年輕人，他們要實踐世代正義，2024的黃國昌跟2012、2013時代力量的黃國昌應當是一樣的立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:18:24.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:18:48.621000+08:00","text":"非常遺憾，從剛剛他的發言，我沒有聽到民眾黨對於這幾個修法到底能不能夠支持民進黨長期以來的改革主張，是不是能夠阻卻、共同擋下這種讓所得替代率終止，可能殃及退撫基金破產。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:18:50.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:19:04.772000+08:00","text":"我非常期待聽到民眾黨委員的正義之聲，但他顯然沒有，不過我尊重每一位委員的發言，畢竟政黨會換，立場可能也會換，只是我認為非常的遺憾。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:19:07.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:19:12.847000+08:00","text":"我現在所唸的這些話，部長，您同意嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:19:12.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:19:30.003000+08:00","text":"年金制度好比一列行駛中的火車，各種年金制度的破產就像是前方的懸崖，身為總統不能坐視不管，不能把問題留給下一代，也不能留給下一個總統，年改再困難也一定要做，您同意嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:19:30.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:19:33.987000+08:00","text":"我非常同意，那時候我在大學教書，我知道年改對我衝擊是很大的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:19:34.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:19:39.282000+08:00","text":"所以您也認為，為了下一代，大家都要一起來實踐世代正義，這是誰說的話呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:19:39.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:20:04.261000+08:00","text":"這是馬英九總統在2013年1月30日，我引用的是總統府的新聞稿，羅智強委員現在是立委，當時他就是總統府的副秘書長，我相信馬英九總統記者會在宣示這樣的立場時，羅智強就在身旁。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:20:09.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:20:29.758000+08:00","text":"經費不足、行業不平、世代不均，所以我們要務實提出可行的改革方案，年金制度影響到社會當中許多人的未來，今天不做，明天會後悔，當時身為大學教授的您也聽到了馬英九總統的宣示，這是他2012年11月21號的新聞稿。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:20:34.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:20:54.060000+08:00","text":"我非常同意今天銓敘部的報告裡頭的一句話，我們整個年改是跨越藍綠執政都要永續前進，我非常同意這是跨越政黨，因為這是世代正義。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:20:54.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:21:47.310000+08:00","text":"馬英九做不到的，民進黨做到了，2018年7月1號年改終於完成立法院的修法，正式上路，那個時候是我第一任的立委，也是菜鳥，我記憶非常的深刻，為了挺年改，我們立委審查議案，在進入立法院行經的過程都要受到非常多發動抗爭、不理性的朋友對我們施以暴力威脅，我印象深刻，我走在路上一度被認出來是民進黨的立委，一群人對著我衝過來，身旁的警察趕快保護我，把我送到一個安全的室內。","quality":0.648},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:21:47.310000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:21:59.860000+08:00","text":"我們都挺住了，不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:21:59.860000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:22:12.410000+08:00","text":"我們也做到了，我們提升基金運作的永續性，希望能夠有效的達到我們設定的目標，讓我們的基金破產的年限再延後一個世代，我們能保多少就保多少，能保多久就保多久。","quality":0.014},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:22:12.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:22:21.978000+08:00","text":"而且我們也有效做到了減少政府財政的壓力，加上我們連兩年撥補294億，加總起來我們合計挹注了3,068.6億。","quality":0.535},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:22:21.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:22:36.677000+08:00","text":"我想就教於部長，今天聽您口頭說明的時候，我想再釐清一下，我們扣除政府兩年的撥補，目前2,774億主要挹注於退撫基金的七成、八成都來自於？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:22:36.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:22:44.524333+08:00","text":"優存利息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:22:44.524333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:22:52.371667+08:00","text":"18%的優存利息，所以說七成、八成現在有效撙節，然後挹注於退撫基金的，是18%的優存利息。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:22:52.371667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:23:00.219000+08:00","text":"而且社會多數的人都認為，18%是年改當中共識最高的，因為它明確的不合理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:23:00.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:23:07.397000+08:00","text":"換言之，真的去動用到退休公務員的月退休金的部分就很少。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:23:08.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:23:10.318000+08:00","text":"到目前為止其實還很少扣到，可能有少部分的人會扣到。","quality":0.522},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:23:10.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:23:21.723000+08:00","text":"很少扣到，這是事實，所以現在很多退休的軍公教出來說，已經影響、剝奪了我的生活基本所需，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:23:21.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:23:33.469000+08:00","text":"我們的統計數字現在七成，大概七成左右的退休人員，大概有月退休金5.1萬，每一個人當然生活需求不一樣，不過純粹退休制度……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:23:35.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:23:39.251000+08:00","text":"五萬一大概是現職的公務同仁的八成薪吧？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:23:39.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:23:39.891000+08:00","text":"差不多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:23:40.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:23:41.031000+08:00","text":"平均值嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:23:41.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:23:52.876000+08:00","text":"平均值，我講的是平均值，我還是要強調一件事情，退休制度的設計的退休所得，是在照顧個人，以退休者做思考。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:23:52.876000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:24:00.472714+08:00","text":"至於退休者延伸的家庭或是其他生活，我想一個退休制度的退休金，除非你把費率提得非常非常高，要不然它很難支撐這樣一個……","quality":0.264},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:24:00.472714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:24:08.069429+08:00","text":"沒有錯，退休金保障的是你基本的個人生活所需，政府盡可能去達到。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:24:08.069429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:24:15.666143+08:00","text":"現在如果平均五萬一，等於是現職公務同仁平均的八成薪，更高於一般私部門的勞工朋友平均薪水4萬5,800對不對？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:24:15.666143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:24:23.262857+08:00","text":"對，現在的數字是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:24:23.262857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:24:30.859571+08:00","text":"遠高於我們勞保大概多少錢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:24:30.859571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:24:38.456286+08:00","text":"我看報紙引述的是勞保跟勞退加起來大概三萬八……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:24:38.456286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:24:46.053000+08:00","text":"應該是3萬7,500，所以坦白說，我們都希望照顧退休軍公教的朋友照顧得越多，只要我們做得到。","quality":0.081},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:24:46.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:24:56.403000+08:00","text":"但是我們同樣要保障，現在擔任國家中堅份子的現職公務人員，還有下一代更多的公務同仁他們的權益。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:24:56.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:25:13.144000+08:00","text":"我們來看OECD國家，以2022年的資訊為例，他們實質退休的所得替代率是61.4，這是OECD國家。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:25:14.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:25:31.803000+08:00","text":"臺灣現在是逐步的，我們希望10年從七、八成可以緩降到六成，但你們的報告告訴我們，因為我們現在是用本俸的兩倍作為分母，換言之，目前如果停在今年大概是67.5。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:25:31.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:25:36.508000+08:00","text":"但那是名目上，實質上的月退是多少，它的所得替代率？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:25:36.508000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:25:37.508000+08:00","text":"如果再乘以這個數字，大概已經快接近80。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:25:36.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:25:53.183000+08:00","text":"就是八成，換言之，今年我們所有退休公務同仁的所得替代率，可能過去的薪水是10萬，現在因為退休了，一個月還可以領到8萬，讓我們所有的公務同仁，哇！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:25:53.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:25:53.423000+08:00","text":"世代正義在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:25:53.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:26:17.688000+08:00","text":"我們看下一頁，高齡、少子化，我早上也說了，各國的年金制度一直在檢視，一改、二改、三改，所以今天在野黨的委員要提出修法來檢視我們上路6年的年改，當然可以。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:26:17.688000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:26:34.329500+08:00","text":"可是國際的趨勢是，因為高齡、少子化，各國都在面對年輕人的負擔更沉重，也包括國家的財政受到很大的扞格跟影響。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:26:34.329500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:26:50.971000+08:00","text":"以希臘跟法國為例，2010年一起啟動年改，2014年法國二改，2016年希臘二改，然後到2023年，去年法國跟希臘同時進行第三次的年改，是越改越嚴，我的說法正確吧？","quality":0.017},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:26:50.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:26:58.117000+08:00","text":"我看外電的報導，確實很多國家因為要因應他的財務狀況，必須做一些改變。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:26:58.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:27:14.151000+08:00","text":"所以說，如果臺灣的年改可以檢討，真的可以檢討，但是就要符合真實的國家能夠負擔的能力，絕對不是越改越鬆。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:27:14.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:27:32.060000+08:00","text":"我再占用一點點時間，我們來到財劃法那一頁，剛剛黃國昌委員說，他認為你們原本希望用10年來撥補我們的退撫基金，他認為為什麼最後變成20年，你的說明非常清楚。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:27:32.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:27:49.711000+08:00","text":"每個部門去跟中央主計要錢的時候，當然希望要更多，但是因為要分給所有的部會，大家都有需求，所以最後是用20年來撥補，我們這兩年是撥了294億，對不對？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:27:49.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:28:10.226000+08:00","text":"如果財劃法，就是新生事物，六千多億被搬走，政府的財政負擔更重了，而且這些退休撫卹的部分是中央來承擔，我們有能力做到穩定的撥補預算給退撫基金嗎？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:28:10.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:28:11.989000+08:00","text":"這個新生事物對於未來的撥補，您的預測是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T13:28:11.989000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:28:13.823000+08:00","text":"我想一定會對中央政府的財政產生很大的衝擊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:28:13.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:28:27.134000+08:00","text":"所以可能就越撥越少，所以我們的基金永續就越來越遙不可及，更可能造成我們基金破產的年限就會提前。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:28:27.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:28:51+08:00","text":"所以我也請提案再修正年改法案的在野黨委員們，要多多思考，當你們一手修財劃法，要掏空中央國庫的收入，另一手卻又要求改年改，然後要終止年金改革，要增加政府財政的loading。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:28:51.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:28:55.887000+08:00","text":"然後剛剛民眾黨委員又要求，20年撥補太慢了，要10年撥補，這不是鬼打牆嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:28:59.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:29:02.374000+08:00","text":"一手挖錢、一手討錢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:29:02.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:29:10.841000+08:00","text":"我認為就財政論財政，這個會期是預算會期，我們要合理來看看中央有多少可用的財源。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:29:11.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:29:27.253000+08:00","text":"我再一次說，如果政府做得到，擴大對於退休人員的照顧我絕對支持，但是政府做得到，同樣也要照顧保障現職的公務人員，這才是世代正義。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:29:27.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:29:34.779000+08:00","text":"所以這個修法，我們一定要審慎以對，謝謝主席裁示，您願意召開公聽會，我希望公聽會能夠越多越好。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:29:34.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:29:36.080000+08:00","text":"當初馬英九總統的時候，全國開了124場座談會，我們不應當為快而快、為修而修。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2024-12-05T13:29:36.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T13:29:36.680000+08:00","text":"抱歉占用了多一點時間，謝謝主席、謝謝部長。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-05T13:29:37.180000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T13:29:41.465714+08:00","text":"謝謝，下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":741,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（13時16分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員午安。"],["吳委員思瑤：午安。年金改革不走回頭路，世代正義不能開倒車，如果今天快速的審查，沒有公聽會就直接處理，那對於很多利害相關人的權益沒有辦法被多元的發聲，當然民進黨阻擋這樣的法案，是因為我們支持改革要永續。民眾黨的8席在立法院成為這個議案非常關鍵的支持力量，到底民眾黨要站在挺改革還是反改革？只是滿可惜的，過去在時代力量時的黃國昌委員，他對於當時蔡英文總統啟動的年改方案大聲撻伐，認為民進黨改得不夠多，正義的實踐不夠快。所以我剛剛聆聽了前一位黃國昌總召的發言，作為民眾黨的召集人，我非常期待，我一直試圖努力在他剛剛的發言裡頭能夠聽到民眾黨會延續他們最重視年輕人，他們要實踐世代正義，2024的黃國昌跟2012、2013時代力量的黃國昌應當是一樣的立場。非常遺憾，從剛剛他的發言，我沒有聽到民眾黨對於這幾個修法到底能不能夠支持民進黨長期以來的改革主張，是不是能夠阻卻、共同擋下這種讓所得替代率終止，可能殃及退撫基金破產。我非常期待聽到民眾黨委員的正義之聲，但他顯然沒有，不過我尊重每一位委員的發言，畢竟政黨會換，立場可能也會換，只是我認為非常的遺憾。","我現在所唸的這些話，部長，您同意嗎？年金制度好比一列行駛中的火車，各種年金制度的破產就像是前方的懸崖，身為總統不能坐視不管，不能把問題留給下一代，也不能留給下一個總統，年改再困難也一定要做，您同意嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我非常同意，那時候我在大學教書，我知道年改對我衝擊是很大的。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以您也認為，為了下一代，大家都要一起來實踐世代正義，這是誰說的話呢？這是馬英九總統在2013年1月30日，我引用的是總統府的新聞稿，羅智強委員現在是立委，當時他就是總統府的副秘書長，我相信馬英九總統記者會在宣示這樣的立場時，羅智強就在身旁。","我國年金制度的三個缺點：經費不足、行業不平、世代不均，所以我們要務實提出可行的改革方案，年金制度影響到社會當中許多人的未來，今天不做，明天會後悔，當時身為大學教授的您也聽到了馬英九總統的宣示，這是他2012年11月21號的新聞稿。我非常同意今天銓敘部的報告裡頭的一句話，我們整個年改是跨越藍綠執政都要永續前進，我非常同意這是跨越政黨，因為這是世代正義。","馬英九做不到的，民進黨做到了，2018年7月1號年改終於完成立法院的修法，正式上路，那個時候是我第一任的立委，也是菜鳥，我記憶非常的深刻，為了挺年改，我們立委審查議案，在進入立法院行經的過程都要受到非常多發動抗爭、不理性的朋友對我們施以暴力威脅，我印象深刻，我走在路上一度被認出來是民進黨的立委，一群人對著我衝過來，身旁的警察趕快保護我，把我送到一個安全的室內。我們都挺住了，不是嗎？","我們也做到了，我們提升基金運作的永續性，希望能夠有效的達到我們設定的目標，讓我們的基金破產的年限再延後一個世代，我們能保多少就保多少，能保多久就保多久。而且我們也有效做到了減少政府財政的壓力，加上我們連兩年撥補294億，加總起來我們合計挹注了3,068.6億。我想就教於部長，今天聽您口頭說明的時候，我想再釐清一下，我們扣除政府兩年的撥補，目前2,774億主要挹注於退撫基金的七成、八成都來自於？"],["施部長能傑：優存利息。"],["吳委員思瑤：18%的優存利息，所以說七成、八成現在有效撙節，然後挹注於退撫基金的，是18%的優存利息。而且社會多數的人都認為，18%是年改當中共識最高的，因為它明確的不合理。換言之，真的去動用到退休公務員的月退休金的部分就很少。"],["施部長能傑：到目前為止其實還很少扣到，可能有少部分的人會扣到。"],["吳委員思瑤：很少扣到，這是事實，所以現在很多退休的軍公教出來說，已經影響、剝奪了我的生活基本所需，是這樣嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我們的統計數字現在七成，大概七成左右的退休人員，大概有月退休金5.1萬，每一個人當然生活需求不一樣，不過純粹退休制度……"],["吳委員思瑤：五萬一大概是現職的公務同仁的八成薪吧？"],["施部長能傑：差不多。"],["吳委員思瑤：平均值嘛！"],["施部長能傑：平均值，我講的是平均值，我還是要強調一件事情，退休制度的設計的退休所得，是在照顧個人，以退休者做思考。至於退休者延伸的家庭或是其他生活，我想一個退休制度的退休金，除非你把費率提得非常非常高，要不然它很難支撐這樣一個……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有錯，退休金保障的是你基本的個人生活所需，政府盡可能去達到。現在如果平均五萬一，等於是現職公務同仁平均的八成薪，更高於一般私部門的勞工朋友平均薪水4萬5,800對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對，現在的數字是……"],["吳委員思瑤：遠高於我們勞保大概多少錢？"],["施部長能傑：我看報紙引述的是勞保跟勞退加起來大概三萬八……"],["吳委員思瑤：應該是3萬7,500，所以坦白說，我們都希望照顧退休軍公教的朋友照顧得越多，只要我們做得到。但是我們同樣要保障，現在擔任國家中堅份子的現職公務人員，還有下一代更多的公務同仁他們的權益。我們來看OECD國家，以2022年的資訊為例，他們實質退休的所得替代率是61.4，這是OECD國家。臺灣現在是逐步的，我們希望10年從七、八成可以緩降到六成，但你們的報告告訴我們，因為我們現在是用本俸的兩倍作為分母，換言之，目前如果停在今年大概是67.5。但那是名目上，實質上的月退是多少，它的所得替代率？"],["施部長能傑：如果再乘以這個數字，大概已經快接近80。"],["吳委員思瑤：就是八成，換言之，今年我們所有退休公務同仁的所得替代率，可能過去的薪水是10萬，現在因為退休了，一個月還可以領到8萬，讓我們所有的公務同仁，哇！世代正義在哪裡？","我們看下一頁，高齡、少子化，我早上也說了，各國的年金制度一直在檢視，一改、二改、三改，所以今天在野黨的委員要提出修法來檢視我們上路6年的年改，當然可以。可是國際的趨勢是，因為高齡、少子化，各國都在面對年輕人的負擔更沉重，也包括國家的財政受到很大的扞格跟影響。以希臘跟法國為例，2010年一起啟動年改，2014年法國二改，2016年希臘二改，然後到2023年，去年法國跟希臘同時進行第三次的年改，是越改越嚴，我的說法正確吧？"],["施部長能傑：我看外電的報導，確實很多國家因為要因應他的財務狀況，必須做一些改變。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以說，如果臺灣的年改可以檢討，真的可以檢討，但是就要符合真實的國家能夠負擔的能力，絕對不是越改越鬆。我再占用一點點時間，我們來到財劃法那一頁，剛剛黃國昌委員說，他認為你們原本希望用10年來撥補我們的退撫基金，他認為為什麼最後變成20年，你的說明非常清楚。每個部門去跟中央主計要錢的時候，當然希望要更多，但是因為要分給所有的部會，大家都有需求，所以最後是用20年來撥補，我們這兩年是撥了294億，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：如果財劃法，就是新生事物，六千多億被搬走，政府的財政負擔更重了，而且這些退休撫卹的部分是中央來承擔，我們有能力做到穩定的撥補預算給退撫基金嗎？這個新生事物對於未來的撥補，您的預測是什麼？"],["施部長能傑：我想一定會對中央政府的財政產生很大的衝擊。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以可能就越撥越少，所以我們的基金永續就越來越遙不可及，更可能造成我們基金破產的年限就會提前。所以我也請提案再修正年改法案的在野黨委員們，要多多思考，當你們一手修財劃法，要掏空中央國庫的收入，另一手卻又要求改年改，然後要終止年金改革，要增加政府財政的loading。然後剛剛民眾黨委員又要求，20年撥補太慢了，要10年撥補，這不是鬼打牆嗎？一手挖錢、一手討錢。我認為就財政論財政，這個會期是預算會期，我們要合理來看看中央有多少可用的財源。","我再一次說，如果政府做得到，擴大對於退休人員的照顧我絕對支持，但是政府做得到，同樣也要照顧保障現職的公務人員，這才是世代正義。所以這個修法，我們一定要審慎以對，謝謝主席裁示，您願意召開公聽會，我希望公聽會能夠越多越好。當初馬英九總統的時候，全國開了124場座談會，我們不應當為快而快、為修而修。抱歉占用了多一點時間，謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}