{"error":false,"id":["157910"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157910,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157910","日期":"2024-12-05","影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-05T14:34:54+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-05T14:43:41+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d21d50d03b83371a4c2a99904554a4baaac90a1da7b6f6bcb9d04779979c8b02f845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"14:34:54 - 14:43:41","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員陳菁徽等20人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員黃捷等22人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員林宜瑾等19人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員范雲等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員林楚茵等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員王育敏等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃秀芳等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林月琴等17人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、國民黨黨團擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員洪申翰、范雲等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員吳沛憶等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員林淑芬等18人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張雅琳等21人擬具「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.337843750000001,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.88971875,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.289718750000002,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.79159375,"end":28.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.60034375,"end":29.258468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.13596875,"end":30.524093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.097843750000003,"end":32.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.63346875,"end":32.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.30846875,"end":54.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.39784375,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.578468750000006,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.05471875,"end":67.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.08784375,"end":78.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.20846875000001,"end":79.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.86659375,"end":82.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.42721875000001,"end":83.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.00096875,"end":87.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.93284375,"end":89.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.56971875,"end":97.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.81284375000001,"end":107.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.09409375000001,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.00346875000001,"end":126.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.45409375000001,"end":130.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.16659375,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.72846875000002,"end":157.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.25096875,"end":169.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.16096875000002,"end":171.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.88159375,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.61534375000002,"end":176.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.69971875000002,"end":176.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.94409375,"end":216.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.72284375,"end":220.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.78534375,"end":228.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.07534375,"end":240.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.97221875000002,"end":273.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.97534375000004,"end":282.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.75471875,"end":284.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.96534375000005,"end":287.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.52596875,"end":292.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.90096875,"end":331.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.74471875,"end":294.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.03846875,"end":305.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.83971875000003,"end":308.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.75534375,"end":334.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.25721875000005,"end":369.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.36971875,"end":370.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.50471875000005,"end":376.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.45721875000004,"end":380.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.54534375000003,"end":382.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.85721875,"end":395.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.13784375,"end":445.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.40846875000005,"end":455.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.50409375000004,"end":458.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.28409375,"end":464.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.44346875,"end":473.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.33659375,"end":489.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.76846875,"end":494.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.51471875000004,"end":496.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.32034375,"end":499.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.71659375,"end":500.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.44221875000005,"end":509.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.43221875000006,"end":516.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.26721875,"end":514.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.8784687500001,"end":517.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.4184687500001,"end":521.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.6672187500001,"end":519.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.9665937500001,"end":520.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.31221875,"end":522.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.81846875,"end":523.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.7634687500001,"end":525.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.9740937500001,"end":526.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.5265937500001,"end":527.9653437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.31,"end":29.094,"text":"好,謝謝主席,我們請部長跟署長一起好不好。部長請署長。委員好。部長還是在這邊跟你明確的請教,你們衛福部是已經確定會脫鉤處理嗎?你們的版本裡面有沒有代理運母?"},{"start":31.231,"end":54.177,"text":"指定特殊處理。為什麼部長今天在這邊承諾非常重要是因為大家知道今天其實在立法院外面有一群反代孕的女性因為非常擔憂台灣的女性的身體會被拿來當成商品非常擔心弱勢的女性的子宮會被拿來出售所以他們現在就在立法院外面"},{"start":55.504,"end":82.081,"text":"希望這樣的聲音可以傳達到我們衛環委員會裡面。部長你聽到了嗎?我聽到了,而且我們的立場就是這樣子。我們的未來的新版本也是脫鉤的版本。好,那部長謝謝你在這邊的承諾,這個一定要在這邊非常堅定的表達出我們衛福部的立場。那這邊再來接下來我們請署長,部長先請請回座。謝謝。署長跟你請教一下喔,你自己是醫生對嗎?"},{"start":84.076,"end":97.242,"text":"那請問我們生產是有風險的一件事嗎生產當然有風險生產既然有風險我們現在讓這個代理運母合法化是不是就是把生產風險轉嫁生產風險外包我想任何一個風險我們都必須要去管控而且希望能夠透過一些法規的規範來讓他降低他的風險"},{"start":109.427,"end":126.101,"text":"請問一下署長你這句話的意思是說你支持你認為在合理的管控之下代理孕母這樣子生產風險轉嫁的行為是可以被允許的嗎我想那個是如果假設要討論這些相關的內容的時候是可以討論的"},{"start":127.706,"end":155.632,"text":"署長我必須要在這邊跟你嚴正的澄清喔我們在這邊不希望代理運母在這一次的討論裡面被納進來就是因為以上這個核心的問題沒有辦法被解決既然生產是有風險的那請問當我們外包的時候誰必須要承擔這些風險到底誰必須要變成是這些承擔風險的對象啊到底誰有義務要去承擔這些風險啊署長"},{"start":158.291,"end":168.902,"text":"我們剛剛開放討論就是希望能夠藉由大家討論,大家有什麼建議能夠讓整個法規能夠更完整。那既然現在已經絕對破規了就不會...我目前沒有問。"},{"start":177.987,"end":184.77,"text":"我建議你回去請教一下你身邊所有的女性到底誰願意自願來擔任這個必須要承擔生產風險的代理育母喔 署長我相信你現在到現在您還搞不清楚為什麼我們在這邊嚴正的反對說爭議這麼大的代理育母絕對不可以納入這次的條文就是因為非常擔心子宮被商品化"},{"start":200.957,"end":219.885,"text":"當心有這樣子風險的外報必須要讓弱勢的女性他可能有經濟需求他可能因為某種家庭的壓力所以他必須要承擔這些外界的壓力來自己承擔說哦大家把風險轉嫁給我所以弱勢的女性要在這裡讓這些有需求的人使用他的子宮欸我都同意委員的建議那希望能夠法規能夠大家能夠討論讓他嚴厲讓他降低所有的風險"},{"start":229.267,"end":245.471,"text":"這不是降低風險的問題這是倫理的問題這個是一個對女性權益保障的問題在目前國民黨跟民眾黨的版本裡面對代孕者的保障是完全完全不足的甚至是聲音被消失的"},{"start":245.911,"end":272.467,"text":"這也是過去國際上雖然大家討論說有一些國家他們有開放代孕但是過去就是因為這些代孕者的聲音不消失所以現在才會有這麼多與時俱進的國家像歐洲有23個人權國家決意說他們要禁止代孕這就是現在國際的趨勢因為大家逐漸發現說原來代理孕不是大家想像的這麼美好不是說我們就是跟你出借子宮而已沒有這麼簡單"},{"start":275.014,"end":287.107,"text":"報告委員我想今天以及委員您所提的我們都深刻的瞭解跟提認所以我們現在衛福部最後監的版本就是的立場就是"},{"start":288.838,"end":293.704,"text":"擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":305.538,"end":317.765,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案：立法院第2會期社會福利及法制委員等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":332.853,"end":340.235,"text":"所以這些像陳昭芝委員陳天在講說就是有人願意做無償待遇請問在座所有的女性你願意做無償待遇嗎?你願意幫別人承擔這樣的風險嗎?我不相信有誰願意這樣說沒錯我就是非常的聖人我在這邊就是希望來照顧其他的女性"},{"start":352.938,"end":376.781,"text":"所以我要來幫這些人無償的待遇去吸收這些生產的風險讓這些不管產前生產中到產後甚至是所有的後遺症沒關係我來擔我不相信在座哪一位女性你願意這樣做這就是這麼根本的問題我不知道為什麼在台上的兩位男性都沒有辦法理解耶"},{"start":377.492,"end":395.218,"text":"我完全理解,而且那個也...對,朝偉都笑了,因為他想說臺上的兩位男性怎麼會理解女性生產過程中的辛苦呢?所以我在這邊還是要非常嚴正,而且非常非常嚴肅的表達我的立場。"},{"start":396.198,"end":405.14,"text":"等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案 案件 等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條"},{"start":424.704,"end":443.118,"text":"她說如果這個代孕者在懷孕中期失敗之後有終止代孕的權利但是委託方可以依照民法的規定跟代孕者來請求損害賠償什麼意思就是如果你代孕者懷孕失敗了不好意思委託者可以告你喔可以跟你要賠償喔請問可以這樣對代孕者嗎"},{"start":446.48,"end":463.594,"text":"我不是要在這樣的版本裡面就是說你小孩沒有生給我你這個商品沒有給我我是可以告你的喔他們把小孩當成商品在這樣的條文裡面我們真的是可以如此的冷靜的去看待這些事情嗎這都是活生生的生命欸"},{"start":465.532,"end":488.817,"text":"所以看起來裡面完全不只沒有把代孕者的聲音而且也讓人工生殖子女的聲音都沒有被放進去這是我在這邊要嚴正表達抗議的所以我很希望說在這邊也跟我們朝委拜託這個爭議真的非常非常大絕對不能這樣隨便的讓它通過一旦通過對台灣所有的女性都是災難好最後我還是在這邊請教"},{"start":495.563,"end":499.028,"text":"拜託部長,我們把我們的底線守好好嗎?是"},{"start":500.649,"end":526.635,"text":"等19人擬具 «人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正草案案件事宜捷等19人擬具:「人工生殖法部分條文修正�"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}