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14:40:52","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算。二、審查「公職人員選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十九條條文修正草案」案。(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條文修正草案」案。(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草案」案。(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正草案」案。(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.86096875,"end":8.856593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.931593750000001,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.918468750000002,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.43721875,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.59721875,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.887843750000002,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.73971875,"end":29.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.629718750000002,"end":32.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.70096875,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.447218750000005,"end":38.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.78471875,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.52284375,"end":39.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.00784375,"end":40.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.27346875,"end":43.619093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.77096875,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.812843750000006,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.80409375,"end":49.508468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.28471875,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.97596875,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.915968750000005,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.26409375,"end":77.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.85846875,"end":79.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.13659375,"end":81.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.82409375,"end":83.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.33846875,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.11034375,"end":88.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.73846875000001,"end":93.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.26534375,"end":94.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.81784375000001,"end":97.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.86784375,"end":100.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.19659375,"end":103.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.69409375000001,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.14471875000001,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.72659375,"end":118.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.18534375,"end":120.26534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.73784375000001,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.26096875,"end":121.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.37471875000001,"end":123.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.62346875,"end":124.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.34909375000001,"end":126.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.31909375000001,"end":127.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.31471875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.42846875,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.09909375,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.31409375,"end":133.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.86659375000002,"end":137.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.59596875,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.87409375000001,"end":140.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.54909375,"end":142.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.75971875000002,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.56534375,"end":146.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.82659375,"end":147.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.56471875,"end":149.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.56034375000002,"end":151.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.93971875,"end":152.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.42471875,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.89284375,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.36534375000002,"end":155.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.22596875000002,"end":157.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.91346875000002,"end":160.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.32221875000002,"end":162.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.90846875,"end":164.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.71409375000002,"end":166.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.38034375,"end":167.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.78096875,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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不一樣的標準了"},{"start":50.322,"end":69.237,"text":"我們的立委同仁,我們現在可以在這裡開會是因為我們當選立法委員。那我們依法當選,我們是依照選拳罷法,公職人員選舉罷免法。那這個法律不是只有選舉法,它還包含罷免法。這是我們跟選民的約束。我們領記四檔,我們按照這樣來動算。我們選民包括你,按照現在這個法律來給我們罷免。"},{"start":74.361,"end":95.674,"text":"那現在我們任期剛開始,我們就把這個罷免部分改掉,是我們違背跟選民的約定,在定義我們自肥啦,他現在改這樣定義不可能有罷免的啦,高薪文件會很困難的啦,這當然是黃國昌反對的,總之他要照顧他。當年啦,上一屆立委國民黨就是有提案要有身份證,黃國昌就在那裡靠腰,說這樣不行啦。"},{"start":99.419,"end":108.106,"text":"現在國民黨在提這個案,你一定要贊成罷免的票,大於當選票數,這要等於沒收人民的罷免權。其實現在這個罷免制度,2016年改了到現在,八年兩年都不成功了。"},{"start":119.609,"end":131.6,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等17人擬具:「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案．公職人員選舉罷免法"},{"start":141.417,"end":148.989,"text":"政人或政治人物對選民負責,不能一開始先自罪,把這個罷免法律給改掉,這是獨立我們自己,這我要看完,對不對?"},{"start":156.297,"end":179.629,"text":"那接下來聽說是因為國民黨台中的立委怕被罷免了,我不曉得是不是這樣子啦,常常國民黨台中的黨民喔,國民黨台中的這立委喔,我們忙到開啦,對不對,去被告罷,靠你靠有什麼好怕的,你現在把他蓋成這樣,根本就是完全要杜絕以後,人民不可能有任何一個罷免要成功啦,"},{"start":181.189,"end":190.896,"text":"二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員楊曜等二十七條及第六十九條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":211.363,"end":226.795,"text":"所以現在只要動到這個選報法第一個我們立委在任期中我們依照這個選舉罷免法宣誓就職立委我們不可以在這個時候我們的任期還不夠你敢改掉喔?對你啦你這樣一改很清楚"},{"start":230.25,"end":249.694,"text":"以後,如果按照過去的經驗、過去的投票率、過去的投票數,不可能有任何罷免案會通過啦。另外再提一個,什麼一年內啊,不能有一個罷免的提案跟連署,這邊要執行的。一年內不得有連署,那你怎麼去認定?你一年內什麼樣的連署以後認為有效以後認為沒有效。"},{"start":258.447,"end":277.387,"text":"也沒有很明晰的一個施行細則啦 我覺得這個法律很丑陋的啦所以我是覺得說 我們政府對自己要有證 第三名要有證我們不可以在這時候 把人民的罷免權給沒收掉我們不可以透過這個法律 自賠我們自己啦好 謝謝主委好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1070,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（14時36分）謝謝主席。本席邀請我們中選會李主委。"],["主席：請李主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：主委，2021年臺中的陳柏惟委員被罷免，那時候國民黨的主席朱立倫說這是民主的勝利，你要知道，陳柏惟被罷免成功，但是贊成罷免的票也沒有大於他當選的票，現在國民黨要把這個改掉，國民黨說罷免同意票如果沒有大於當選票，這叫做少數民主，國民黨又在轉變了，不一樣的標準了。","我們立委同仁現在可以在這裡開會，是因為我們當選立法委員，我們依法當選，我們是依照公職人員選舉罷免法，這個法律不是只有選舉法，它還包含罷免法，這是我們跟選民的約定，任期4年，我們按照這樣的法律當選，我們選民也有權利按照現在這個法律來把我罷免，現在我們任期剛開始，我們就把罷免的部分改掉，是我們違背跟選民的約定，等於我們自肥，現在改成這樣等於不可能有罷免了，繳交身分證是很困難的，當時黃國昌是反對的。張啓楷現在跑掉了！當年，上一屆國民黨就有提案要用身分證，黃國昌就在那邊「哭夭」，他說這樣不行啦！所以張啓楷要搞清楚啦！","現在國民黨再提這個案，一定要贊成罷免的票數大於當選的票數，這以後等於沒收人民的罷免權，其實現在的罷免制度從2016年修改之後到現在，這8年來只有兩件罷免成功而已，而且像陳柏惟的同意票數就沒有大於他的當選票數，對不對？我聽說現在國民黨要改，這是為什麼？會怕嗎？我認為就接受選民考驗嘛！國民黨不也是說要罷免民進黨20個立委？政黨或政治人物對自己、對選民負責，不能一開始我們就先自肥，把罷免的法律給改掉，這是圖利我們自己，這是我的看法，對不對？","接下來，聽說是因為國民黨臺中的立委怕被罷免，我不曉得是不是這樣子，國民黨臺中的同仁、國民黨臺中的這些立委，我們不要「漏氣」啦！氣魄有這麼差嗎？哪有什麼好怕的？你現在把它改成這樣，根本就是完全要杜絕以後的罷免成功，人民不可能有任何一個罷免會成功啦！過去幾次罷免的投票率是多少？主委，你知道嗎？"],["李主任委員進勇：差不多40%左右。"],["林委員俊憲：28%到50%，但是選舉投票至少投票率都五成多、六成五啦，對不對？"],["李主任委員進勇：是。"],["林委員俊憲：所以這兩個選舉的基本結構是不一樣的，你怎麼可以拿這個的最後票數跟那個的最後票數來對比？這是不一樣的選舉投票，對不對？你看它投票率差那麼多！所以現在只要動到這個選罷法，第一個，我們立委在任期中，我們依照這個選舉罷免法宣誓就職立委，我們不能把這個法律在這個時候、在我們的任期還沒結束就把它改掉了。第二，你這樣一改，很清楚，如果按照過去的經驗、過去的投票率、過去的得票數，不可能有任何罷免案會通過。","國民黨再提一個什麼一年裡面不能有罷免的提案跟連署，這要怎麼執行？一年內不得有連署，你怎麼去認定？一年內什麼樣的連署，以後認為有效或者以後認為沒有效？也沒有明細的一個施行細則。我覺得這個法律很粗魯啦！所以我是覺得我們立委對自己要負責、對選民要負責，我們不能在這個時候把人民的罷免權給沒收掉，胡亂偷改這個法律等於自肥我們自己啦！好，謝謝主委。"],["李主任委員進勇：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":126,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-15-14","speakers":["徐欣瑩","許宇甄","李柏毅","黃捷","王美惠","張宏陸","高金素梅","李坤城","蔡易餘","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","吳沛憶","陳菁徽","張嘉郡","翁曉玲","張啓楷","洪孟楷","徐巧芯","林楚茵","吳思瑤","郭國文","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林俊憲","張雅琳","林思銘","黃秀芳","許智傑","陳秀寳","陳培瑜","王義川","莊瑞雄","廖先翔","林宜瑾","林淑芬","賴惠員","傅崐萁","陳素月","吳秉叡","王正旭","徐富癸","邱志偉","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","郭昱晴","林月琴","邱議瑩","李昆澤","葉元之","陳瑩","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬單位預算；二、審查「公職人員\n選舉罷免法」修正草案，計六案：(一)審查委員楊曜等17人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六十七\n條及第六十九條條文修正草案」案、(二)審查委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第六\n十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)審查委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十三條條\n文修正草案」案、(四)審查委員陳冠廷等25人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第五十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)審查委員許宇甄等39人擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第七十五條及第九十條條文修正\n草案」案、(六)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公職人員選舉罷免法第三十二條及第四十三條條文修\n正草案」案","agenda_id":"1140201_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}