{"error":false,"id":["157936"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157936,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157936","日期":"2024-12-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-36-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-05T16:25:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-05T16:29:56+08:00","影片長度":"00:04:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d217244b98aa03f4769d143e698449c70dc4e04583d40588c3296ef8369fd87006b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"16:25:20 - 16:29:56","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":5.835968750000001,"end":7.574093750000001,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":8.08034375,"end":8.77221875,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":14.00346875,"end":14.661593750000002,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":15.15096875,"end":40.59846875,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":24.95534375,"end":25.90034375,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":40.80096875,"end":53.744093750000005,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":40.85159375,"end":40.93596875,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":40.95284375,"end":41.76284375,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":53.946593750000005,"end":92.77596875,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":55.38096875,"end":55.92096875,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":58.907843750000005,"end":61.70909375,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":66.88971875,"end":68.17221875,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":86.02596875,"end":88.48971875000001,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":92.97846875,"end":127.52159375000001,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":97.23096875,"end":98.46284375,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":98.49659375,"end":98.78346875000001,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":101.71971875000001,"end":103.59284375,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":104.04846875000001,"end":104.06534375000001,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":104.65596875,"end":107.49096875000001,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":117.05909375,"end":117.36284375000001,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":127.67346875000001,"end":136.19534375,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":137.25846875000002,"end":174.78846875000002,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":140.75159375,"end":140.76846875,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":145.18971875,"end":147.55221875,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":148.68284375000002,"end":150.79221875000002,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":151.38284375,"end":153.47534375,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":153.84659375,"end":154.06596875,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":155.36534375000002,"end":155.63534375,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":160.90034375000002,"end":161.64284375,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":175.19346875000002,"end":183.52971875,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":183.83346875,"end":199.42596875,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":194.32971875,"end":195.39284375000003,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"郭委員國文","start":196.28721875000002,"end":196.77659375000002,"speaker_score":0.915},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑","start":199.66221875000002,"end":204.92721875,"speaker_score":0.883},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"施部長能傑"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如果這樣計算方式起來的話我現在想說如果假設是看起來是表面上是60%但是實際上我們這種基數的換算方式很有可能是變成實際上是有替代率70%的可能"},{"start":54.611,"end":59.493,"text":"三（委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":82.523,"end":82.703,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":94.356,"end":115.708,"text":"我聽說勞保大概是一萬多塊平均大概一萬多塊那勞退可能因為他實施還沒有很久實施比較短啦勞退2005實施所以可能不會那麼多啦以勞保的話最高投保金額來換算的話我跟你講事實上他大概約莫連四成都不到現在一萬八"},{"start":117.229,"end":134.762,"text":"所以說其實相對其他職業別而言我們現在即便年改之後的70%OECD比較其他的職業類別也是相對比較高這是事實嘛對不對好那在大會來說因為你要最主要的退休是要保障他是一個社會安全網的概念你覺得70%夠不夠你認為"},{"start":137.264,"end":137.504,"text":"三（委員張智倫"},{"start":157.472,"end":159.853,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具:「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":183.888,"end":184.448,"text":"三）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":205.174,"end":205.655,"text":"負最終責任負最終責任"},{"start":226.192,"end":229.833,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具 «公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案．一）委員張智倫等16人擬具"},{"start":250.339,"end":250.9,"text":"三（委員張智倫"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:25:26.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:25:27.340000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請施部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-05T16:25:28.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:25:28.426000+08:00","text":"麻煩部長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:25:28.426000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:25:30.338000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:25:30.338000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:25:32.250000+08:00","text":"施部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:25:32.250000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:25:34.162000+08:00","text":"施部長，如果根據原來年改的內容，遞延的所得替代率最後是60%，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:25:34.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:25:35.343000+08:00","text":"對，法律上是講60%、35年。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:25:35.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:25:36.544000+08:00","text":"法律上到60%的情況底下，但是我們以實際的本俸乘以2，我們是用本俸的2倍嘛！","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:25:36.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:01.884000+08:00","text":"乘以2，它其實大概是實支薪資的1.8倍。對。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:01.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:12.860000+08:00","text":"如果這樣計算起來的話，我們現在想說，假設看起來表面上是60%，但是以我們這種基數的換算方式，實際上很有可能變成是替代率70%。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:12.860000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:16.659636+08:00","text":"差不多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:16.659636+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:20.459273+08:00","text":"差不多嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:20.459273+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:24.258909+08:00","text":"要看每一個人退休的那個到底是年功俸還是怎樣，比較複雜一點啦！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:24.258909+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:28.058545+08:00","text":"對，當然有些微的差異啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:28.058545+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:31.858182+08:00","text":"但是我必須說，因為你這個基數的部分，基本上有比較優惠的計算方式。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:31.858182+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:35.657818+08:00","text":"當初是這樣設計。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:35.657818+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:39.457455+08:00","text":"對，有技術上的設計，而這樣的設計其實是比較好的，所以它的所得替代率看起來是60%，其實是70%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:39.457455+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:43.257091+08:00","text":"好，相對而言是70%，我請問一下，OECD國家一般退休的所得替代率大概是多少？","quality":0.061},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:43.257091+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:47.056727+08:00","text":"在年改進行的時候有一個統計，我印象中大概在53%、54%。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:47.056727+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:50.856364+08:00","text":"對，大概是50%嘛！對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:50.856364+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:54.656000+08:00","text":"好，那就我們勞工的部分，你知道現在所得替代率大概多少？1萬8。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:54.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:26:59.219000+08:00","text":"我知道勞保大概是一萬多塊，平均大概一萬多塊。對，1萬8。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:26:59.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:01.780000+08:00","text":"那勞退可能因為它實施還沒有很久，所以我……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:01.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:04.582000+08:00","text":"實施比較短，勞退是2005年實施的。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:05.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:06.583000+08:00","text":"它比較短，所以可能不會那麼多。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:06.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:27.717000+08:00","text":"以勞保最高投保金額來換算的話，我跟你講，事實上它約莫連四成都不到，現在1萬8，所以說相對其他職業別而言，我們現在即便年改之後的70%，比較OECD國家、比較其他的職業類別，也是相對比較高，這是事實，對不對？對。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:27.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:34.742000+08:00","text":"好，再拉回來說，退休最主要是要保障，它是一個社會安全網的概念，你覺得70%夠不夠？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:34.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:34.762000+08:00","text":"你認為。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:34.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:39.162750+08:00","text":"我比較傾向回過頭來看他實際上拿多少錢，因為談錢才知道說我夠不夠。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:39.162750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:43.563500+08:00","text":"你要談絕對額當然也是一種方式，但是每一個人的絕對額不一樣。","quality":0.037},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:43.563500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:47.964250+08:00","text":"對，因為那個是就每個人的感覺……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:47.964250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:52.365000+08:00","text":"因為每個人絕對額不一樣啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:52.365000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:27:56.765750+08:00","text":"但是我們都拿平均值來看，我覺得這樣比較好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:27:56.765750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:01.166500+08:00","text":"對，但是對照先進國家OECD國家來做比較，我們明明已經多人家兩成了，你認為夠不夠嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:01.166500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:05.567250+08:00","text":"如果純粹就名目上，我們真的是比人家高。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:05.567250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:09.968000+08:00","text":"比較高？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:09.968000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:14.368750+08:00","text":"另外一個，我要就教於您，112年所得替代率是70%，而不是降到60%，這樣子你說50年會變成是少撥了2,800億，對不對？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:14.368750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:18.769500+08:00","text":"然後另外一個部分，你還有一個現實的問題，事實上你112年7月開始，新進人員就用個人帳戶制了，不是嗎？對。","quality":0.048},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:18.769500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:23.170250+08:00","text":"你這部分也少挹注了，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:23.170250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:27.571000+08:00","text":"就是由另外一部分─政府在挹注。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:27.571000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:31.971750+08:00","text":"對，那現在可以預估的是，假設如同你報告所說的，是提前到131年破產，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:31.971750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:36.372500+08:00","text":"這兩個合計的效果。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:36.372500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:40.773250+08:00","text":"這兩個合起來就提早到131年，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:40.773250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:45.174000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:45.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:45.374000+08:00","text":"但是政府會不會負最終責任？","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:45.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:46.374000+08:00","text":"應該這樣講，現在法律規定那個新制的部分，政府一定要先分年撥補完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:46.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:47.374000+08:00","text":"沒有，我就問這個舊制的部分，退撫基金以後政府會不會負最終責任？","quality":0.179},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:47.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:48.374000+08:00","text":"有，有提到說要負最終責任。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:48.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:49.374000+08:00","text":"如果回到最終責任的話，那你應該預估出來錢多少啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:49.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:50.374000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:50.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:51.374000+08:00","text":"大概多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:51.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:52.374000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講，現在基金潛藏負債2.9兆！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:52.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:53.374000+08:00","text":"2.9兆，我請問一下，如果平均起來，以50年來換算的話，每年政府要多支出多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:53.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:54.374000+08:00","text":"相當多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:54.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:55.374000+08:00","text":"相當多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:55.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:56.374000+08:00","text":"對，當然因為我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:56.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:57.374000+08:00","text":"大概五百多億，對不對？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:57.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:58.374000+08:00","text":"剛剛兩千八百多億，我給你算過了，就是56億了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:58.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:28:59.374000+08:00","text":"如果每年因為這樣子，政府要多五百多億的話，那我跟你講，依照國民黨的財劃法，本來可以自有的資金餘額扣除掉6,612億，剩下一千多億，一千多億你再拿掉五百五十多億的話，那不是剩下五百多億而已嗎？","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:28:59.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:00.374000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:00.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:01.374000+08:00","text":"所以潛藏的事實，我覺得其實你也把這個數字展露出來，變成整個國家的財政根本無法負擔嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:01.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:02.374000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:02.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:03.374000+08:00","text":"最終你要承擔最終責任額，結果最終責任額是政府，最終責任額是來自於它的財務能力，政府沒有財務能力的時候，如何保障這些軍公教人員的退休？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:03.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:04.374000+08:00","text":"如何確保他的社會安全？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:04.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:05.374000+08:00","text":"如何確保他老年之後的生活？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:05.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:06.374000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:06.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:07.374000+08:00","text":"部長，麻煩這部分再強調一下，謝謝。","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:07.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:08.374000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:07.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:08.113000+08:00","text":"謝謝郭委員。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:08.613000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:14.041571+08:00","text":"接下來請涂權吉委員，涂權吉委員、涂權吉委員。","quality":0.211},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-05T16:29:14.341571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:29:17.484429+08:00","text":"下一位請王正旭委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1450,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（16時25分）謝謝主席，有請施部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：施部長好。施部長，如果根據原來年改的內容，遞延的所得替代率最後是60%，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對，法律上是講60%、35年。"],["郭委員國文：法律上到60%的情況底下，但是我們以實際的本俸乘以2，我們是用本俸的2倍嘛！乘以2，它其實大概是實支薪資的1.8倍。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["郭委員國文：如果這樣計算起來的話，我們現在想說，假設看起來表面上是60%，但是以我們這種基數的換算方式，實際上很有可能變成是替代率70%。"],["施部長能傑：差不多。"],["郭委員國文：差不多嘛！"],["施部長能傑：要看每一個人退休的那個到底是年功俸還是怎樣，比較複雜一點啦！"],["郭委員國文：對，當然有些微的差異啦！但是我必須說，因為你這個基數的部分，基本上有比較優惠的計算方式。"],["施部長能傑：當初是這樣設計。"],["郭委員國文：對，有技術上的設計，而這樣的設計其實是比較好的，所以它的所得替代率看起來是60%，其實是70%。好，相對而言是70%，我請問一下，OECD國家一般退休的所得替代率大概是多少？"],["施部長能傑：在年改進行的時候有一個統計，我印象中大概在53%、54%。"],["郭委員國文：對，大概是50%嘛！"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["郭委員國文：好，那就我們勞工的部分，你知道現在所得替代率大概多少？1萬8。"],["施部長能傑：我知道勞保大概是一萬多塊，平均大概一萬多塊。"],["郭委員國文：對，1萬8。"],["施部長能傑：那勞退可能因為它實施還沒有很久，所以我……"],["郭委員國文：實施比較短，勞退是2005年實施的。"],["施部長能傑：它比較短，所以可能不會那麼多。"],["郭委員國文：以勞保最高投保金額來換算的話，我跟你講，事實上它約莫連四成都不到，現在1萬8，所以說相對其他職業別而言，我們現在即便年改之後的70%，比較OECD國家、比較其他的職業類別，也是相對比較高，這是事實，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["郭委員國文：好，再拉回來說，退休最主要是要保障，它是一個社會安全網的概念，你覺得70%夠不夠？你認為。"],["施部長能傑：我比較傾向回過頭來看他實際上拿多少錢，因為談錢才知道說我夠不夠。"],["郭委員國文：你要談絕對額當然也是一種方式，但是每一個人的絕對額不一樣。"],["施部長能傑：對，因為那個是就每個人的感覺……"],["郭委員國文：因為每個人絕對額不一樣啊！"],["施部長能傑：但是我們都拿平均值來看，我覺得這樣比較好。"],["郭委員國文：對，但是對照先進國家OECD國家來做比較，我們明明已經多人家兩成了，你認為夠不夠嘛？"],["施部長能傑：如果純粹就名目上，我們真的是比人家高。"],["郭委員國文：比較高？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["郭委員國文：另外一個，我要就教於您，112年所得替代率是70%，而不是降到60%，這樣子你說50年會變成是少撥了2,800億，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["郭委員國文：然後另外一個部分，你還有一個現實的問題，事實上你112年7月開始，新進人員就用個人帳戶制了，不是嗎？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["郭委員國文：你這部分也少挹注了，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：就是由另外一部分─政府在挹注。"],["郭委員國文：對，那現在可以預估的是，假設如同你報告所說的，是提前到131年破產，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：這兩個合計的效果。"],["郭委員國文：這兩個合起來就提早到131年，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對，沒錯。"],["郭委員國文：但是政府會不會負最終責任？"],["施部長能傑：應該這樣講，現在法律規定那個新制的部分，政府一定要先分年撥補完。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，我就問這個舊制的部分，退撫基金以後政府會不會負最終責任？"],["施部長能傑：有，有提到說要負最終責任。"],["郭委員國文：如果回到最終責任的話，那你應該預估出來錢多少啊！不是嗎？大概多少？"],["施部長能傑：我剛剛講，現在基金潛藏負債2.9兆！"],["郭委員國文：2.9兆，我請問一下，如果平均起來，以50年來換算的話，每年政府要多支出多少？"],["施部長能傑：相當多。"],["郭委員國文：相當多。"],["施部長能傑：對，當然因為我們……"],["郭委員國文：大概五百多億，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["郭委員國文：剛剛兩千八百多億，我給你算過了，就是56億了啦！如果每年因為這樣子，政府要多五百多億的話，那我跟你講，依照國民黨的財劃法，本來可以自有的資金餘額扣除掉6,612億，剩下一千多億，一千多億你再拿掉五百五十多億的話，那不是剩下五百多億而已嗎？對不對？所以潛藏的事實，我覺得其實你也把這個數字展露出來，變成整個國家的財政根本無法負擔嘛！對不對？最終你要承擔最終責任額，結果最終責任額是政府，最終責任額是來自於它的財務能力，政府沒有財務能力的時候，如何保障這些軍公教人員的退休？如何確保他的社會安全？如何確保他老年之後的生活？對不對？部長，麻煩這部分再強調一下，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭委員。","接下來請涂權吉委員，涂權吉委員、涂權吉委員。","下一位請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}