{"error":false,"id":["157938"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":157938,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/157938","日期":"2024-12-05","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-36-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-05T16:34:58+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-05T16:40:45+08:00","影片長度":"00:05:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/66a8e59aed318d2171711435124101d2d143e698449c70dc4e04583d40588c325072d6cea2f53abe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"16:34:58 - 16:40:45","會議時間":"2024-12-05T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員張嘉郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員賴士葆等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）國民黨黨團擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十三）委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十四）委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十五）委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十六）委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十七）委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十八）委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n（十九）委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（二十）委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":5.48159375,"end":7.894718750000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":8.02971875,"end":8.41784375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":9.059093750000002,"end":10.08846875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":12.501593750000001,"end":12.923468750000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":13.277843750000002,"end":14.813468750000002,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":15.015968750000003,"end":16.24784375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.46721875,"end":17.496593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":18.239093750000002,"end":21.27659375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":21.49596875,"end":26.86221875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.355968750000002,"end":34.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":32.27909375,"end":32.73471875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":33.76409375,"end":39.90659375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.602843750000005,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":40.142843750000004,"end":47.736593750000004,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":47.955968750000004,"end":49.66034375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":49.91346875,"end":51.49971875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.58409375,"end":52.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":52.259093750000005,"end":54.41909375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":54.587843750000005,"end":63.953468750000006,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":64.49346875,"end":65.03346875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":65.40471875,"end":76.18784375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":76.42409375000001,"end":77.20034375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":77.84159375,"end":89.21534375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":89.75534375000001,"end":91.10534375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":91.71284375,"end":94.63221875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":95.45909375000001,"end":99.82971875000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.41596875,"end":104.06534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.63909375,"end":105.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.33096875000001,"end":106.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":106.86659375,"end":110.41034375000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.47409375000001,"end":108.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.96721875,"end":116.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.73846875000001,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":116.97471875000001,"end":117.86909375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.86909375,"end":117.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":117.90284375,"end":117.91971875,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.91971875,"end":117.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":118.51034375,"end":120.87284375,"speaker_score":0.891},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"王委員定宇","start":121.31159375000001,"end":123.23534375000001,"speaker_score":0.891},{"sp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案。"},{"start":146.752,"end":167.848,"text":"在八十四五年以後軍公教本來就沒有18%優存退休制度那一次那一次的改革是為了確保已退的N幾字的人可以領到超過100%所以讓當時剛就職的公教軍領的比較少軍人把樓地板面積定在40%嘛民國八十五年那個時候啊"},{"start":169.039,"end":169.299,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":199.459,"end":223.515,"text":"所以形成了不改不行的危機而且是從馬政府第一任期末端就發現這問題很大了可是他推不動啊那到蔡英文政府的時候好不容易推動了然後現在慢慢穩定下來了還要去攪動他其實傷害的反而是軍公教本席當時是負責軍人年金改革的召委軍改當時的滿意度達到98%為什麼我們不僅要財務平衡"},{"start":228.899,"end":232.42,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第18次全體委員會第18次公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第19次公務人員退休資遣"},{"start":246.565,"end":261.847,"text":"因為制度改變因為我們改變的制度他退休的時候月退反而增加一萬二就是那15%而軍人跟公教人員不一樣公教人員可以做到主席我馬上收尾了公教人員只要不犯錯可以做到65歲"},{"start":263.048,"end":265.349,"text":"撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":277.935,"end":290.719,"text":"撫卹法第十七條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會"},{"start":298.454,"end":317.599,"text":"現在因為政治的因素都不去看內容也不看這個歷史背景去翻動攪動他到最後受害的是現在可能已經年近中壯年的軍公教人員甚至於新進的軍公教人員繳的錢可能未來要支付這被恢復的錢坑"},{"start":318.799,"end":346.806,"text":"這件事情不是政治問題這件事情不應該有黨派之分這件事情是國家永續發展照顧所有我們公職人員很重要的一個使命所以我真的希望包含昭偉包含我們不同黨派的同伴們這個事情不應該拿出來政治操作它既不道德而且很危險謝謝好 謝謝王委員因為今天登記發言人到67位所以我們比較重視時間好 謝謝各位好 那下一位我們請"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:03.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:05.729000+08:00","text":"施部長，你先喝水沒關係，我等你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:07.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:07.731000+08:00","text":"麻煩部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:07.731000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:08.731000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:07.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:10.755000+08:00","text":"部長，這個議題其實你觀察很久了。對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:10.755000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:14.844167+08:00","text":"我們當過總統的人說出年金改革如果不改，現在不改以後就會後悔，是從哪一任總統開始的？","quality":0.026},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:14.844167+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:18.933333+08:00","text":"你有沒有印象？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:18.933333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:23.022500+08:00","text":"今天很多人提到，這應該是馬英九總統的時候就開始做了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:23.022500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:27.111667+08:00","text":"馬總統當時英明啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:27.111667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:31.200833+08:00","text":"他就希望要做這件事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:31.200833+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:35.290000+08:00","text":"他英明啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:35.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:38.413000+08:00","text":"他當時候就知道不改的話，因為當時我記得國際氛圍是希臘的危機。對。","quality":0.517},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:38.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:46.779000+08:00","text":"希臘的退休公務人員去翻垃圾桶找漢堡的那一張相片，刊在全球媒體上面，為什麼？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:46.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:35:51.703000+08:00","text":"因為他們的年金制度破產了，我答應你要給多少，破產了你就領不到。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:35:52.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:00.009000+08:00","text":"事實上現在中國他們的老人醫保，還有他們曾經對解放軍的一些承諾，也因為財務出問題，承諾的東西做不到。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:02.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:21.456000+08:00","text":"所以年金改革，我相信不同政黨執政的時候，能夠不動大家都希望不要動它，但是從馬英九當總統開始就知道，不管是軍保、公教人員的，如果當時不進行改革的話，可能會面臨破產的危機。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:21.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:26.458000+08:00","text":"現在當然有人說要把它都改回去，如果現在把它改回去，因為制度已經變革了，如果改回去的話，你們有沒有概算過，都照原來的制度，年金這個財庫多久會開始變紅字？","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:26.458000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:28.118000+08:00","text":"如果改回去，大概在135年會歸零。135年嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:28.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:28.118000+08:00","text":"差不多。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:28.118000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:35.120000+08:00","text":"就歸零了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:35.120000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:42.122000+08:00","text":"歸零，對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:42.122000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:49.124000+08:00","text":"那受傷害的是誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:49.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:52.386000+08:00","text":"當然是包括現職人員還有已經退休的人員，同樣都會受傷害。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:52.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:55.408000+08:00","text":"我坦白講，已退休人員我們應該照顧他。對。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:56.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:36:58.590000+08:00","text":"可是現職人員，我正在繳保費欸！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:36:59.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:37:07.676000+08:00","text":"甚至於我即將要退了，尤其現在如果你的年資，你大概計畫10年後要退的，你聽到要改回去應該要擔心啊！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:37:07.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:37:25.433000+08:00","text":"因為當你退的時候歸零，你的退休金可能會大幅降低，甚至於領不到，而且我們年金改革不管是軍公教，事實上民國84年、85年改過一次，現在的公務人員也沒有18%啊！","quality":0.138},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:37:25.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:37:44.206000+08:00","text":"在84、85年以後，軍公教本來就沒有18%優存，退休制度那一次的改革是為了確保已退的、恩給制的人可以領到超過100%，所以讓當時剛就職的軍公教領得比較少，軍人把樓地板面積定在40%嘛！","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:37:44.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:37:45.828000+08:00","text":"民國85年那個時候啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:37:45.828000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:37:56.371667+08:00","text":"那時候說沒有人反對，廢話！","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:37:56.371667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:38:06.915333+08:00","text":"都還沒任官，因為85年以後的還沒任官，當然沒有人反對，所以拿以後的軍公教的錢去補貼以前這個恩給制的，是84年、85年發生的事嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:38:06.915333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:38:17.459000+08:00","text":"我這麼說沒錯嘛？嗯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:38:17.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:38:26.545000+08:00","text":"然後當時這樣子一黨獨大的狀況下，後來發現這個制度，新的人，民國85年以後的軍公教，他的福利本來就沒有18%優存，他的退休制度也比較正常，他繳的錢反而要去支付過去恩給制的費用，所以形成了不改不行的危機，而且是從馬政府第一任期的末端就發現這個問題很大了，可是他推不動啊！","quality":0.345},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:38:27.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:38:35.251000+08:00","text":"到蔡英文政府的時候，好不容易推動了，然後現在慢慢穩定下來了，還要去攪動它，其實傷害的反而是軍公教。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:38:36.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:38:41.235000+08:00","text":"本席當時是負責軍人年金改革的召委，軍改當時的滿意度達到98%，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:38:41.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:39:04.565000+08:00","text":"我們不僅要財務平衡，我們還要改變說還在工作的領得比退休的人還少，其實軍改當時還有一個跟公教不一樣的，我們把樓地板面積從40%調高到55%，對吧？對。","quality":0.188},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:39:04.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:39:11.715000+08:00","text":"當時我們算過，現職中校因為制度改變，因為我們改變了制度，他退休的時候月退反而增加1萬2，就是那15%。","quality":0.738},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:39:11.715000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-05T16:39:56.454000+08:00","text":"而軍人跟公教人員不一樣，公教人員只要不犯錯，可以做到65歲，軍人如果升了少校20年，我升不上去，停留年限滿就強制離職，他不是想做幾年就做幾年，工作時間長度不一樣，他的工作內容也不一樣，所以當時把它調到55%，然後每多1年加2%，才形成現在對已退的老學長們影響很小，因為我們那時候的設計連80歲以上都不變動，去當工友、技工的不變動，去私立學校兼職的雙餉不變動，都已經做到最小影響、最大照顧及財務衡平。","quality":0.158},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:39:56.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:40:15.579000+08:00","text":"現在因為政治的因素，都不去看內容，也不看歷史背景，去翻動、攪動它，到最後受害的是現在可能已經年近中壯年的軍公教人員，甚至於新進的軍公教人員繳的錢可能未來要支付這被恢復的錢坑。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:40:16.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:40:25.841000+08:00","text":"這件事情不是政治問題，這件事情也不應該有黨派之分，這件事情是國家永續發展，照顧所有公職人員很重要的一個使命。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2024-12-05T16:40:26.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:40:36.384000+08:00","text":"所以我真的希望包含召委，包含不同黨派的同伴們，這件事情不應該拿出來政治操作，它既不道德，而且很危險，謝謝。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-05T16:40:38.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:40:39.004000+08:00","text":"謝謝王委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-05T16:40:39.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:40:43.726000+08:00","text":"因為今天登記發言到67位，所以我們比較重視時間，謝謝各位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-05T16:40:44.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-05T16:40:44.806000+08:00","text":"下一位請蔡易餘委員發言。","quality":0.364}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1533,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（16時35分）施部長，你先喝水沒關係，我等你。"],["主席：麻煩部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長，這個議題其實你觀察很久了。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["王委員定宇：我們當過總統的人說出年金改革如果不改，現在不改以後就會後悔，是從哪一任總統開始的？你有沒有印象？"],["施部長能傑：今天很多人提到，這應該是馬英九總統的時候就開始做了。"],["王委員定宇：馬總統當時英明啊！"],["施部長能傑：他就希望要做這件事情。"],["王委員定宇：他英明啊！他當時候就知道不改的話，因為當時我記得國際氛圍是希臘的危機。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["王委員定宇：希臘的退休公務人員去翻垃圾桶找漢堡的那一張相片，刊在全球媒體上面，為什麼？因為他們的年金制度破產了，我答應你要給多少，破產了你就領不到。事實上現在中國他們的老人醫保，還有他們曾經對解放軍的一些承諾，也因為財務出問題，承諾的東西做不到。所以年金改革，我相信不同政黨執政的時候，能夠不動大家都希望不要動它，但是從馬英九當總統開始就知道，不管是軍保、公教人員的，如果當時不進行改革的話，可能會面臨破產的危機。","現在當然有人說要把它都改回去，如果現在把它改回去，因為制度已經變革了，如果改回去的話，你們有沒有概算過，都照原來的制度，年金這個財庫多久會開始變紅字？"],["施部長能傑：如果改回去，大概在135年會歸零。"],["王委員定宇：135年嘛！"],["施部長能傑：差不多。"],["王委員定宇：就歸零了嘛！"],["施部長能傑：歸零，對。"],["王委員定宇：那受傷害的是誰？"],["施部長能傑：當然是包括現職人員還有已經退休的人員，同樣都會受傷害。"],["王委員定宇：我坦白講，已退休人員我們應該照顧他。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["王委員定宇：可是現職人員，我正在繳保費欸！甚至於我即將要退了，尤其現在如果你的年資，你大概計畫10年後要退的，你聽到要改回去應該要擔心啊！因為當你退的時候歸零，你的退休金可能會大幅降低，甚至於領不到，而且我們年金改革不管是軍公教，事實上民國84年、85年改過一次，現在的公務人員也沒有18%啊！在84、85年以後，軍公教本來就沒有18%優存，退休制度那一次的改革是為了確保已退的、恩給制的人可以領到超過100%，所以讓當時剛就職的軍公教領得比較少，軍人把樓地板面積定在40%嘛！民國85年那個時候啊！那時候說沒有人反對，廢話！都還沒任官，因為85年以後的還沒任官，當然沒有人反對，所以拿以後的軍公教的錢去補貼以前這個恩給制的，是84年、85年發生的事嘛！我這麼說沒錯嘛？"],["施部長能傑：嗯。"],["王委員定宇：然後當時這樣子一黨獨大的狀況下，後來發現這個制度，新的人，民國85年以後的軍公教，他的福利本來就沒有18%優存，他的退休制度也比較正常，他繳的錢反而要去支付過去恩給制的費用，所以形成了不改不行的危機，而且是從馬政府第一任期的末端就發現這個問題很大了，可是他推不動啊！到蔡英文政府的時候，好不容易推動了，然後現在慢慢穩定下來了，還要去攪動它，其實傷害的反而是軍公教。","本席當時是負責軍人年金改革的召委，軍改當時的滿意度達到98%，為什麼？我們不僅要財務平衡，我們還要改變說還在工作的領得比退休的人還少，其實軍改當時還有一個跟公教不一樣的，我們把樓地板面積從40%調高到55%，對吧？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["王委員定宇：當時我們算過，現職中校因為制度改變，因為我們改變了制度，他退休的時候月退反而增加1萬2，就是那15%。而軍人跟公教人員不一樣，公教人員只要不犯錯，可以做到65歲，軍人如果升了少校20年，我升不上去，停留年限滿就強制離職，他不是想做幾年就做幾年，工作時間長度不一樣，他的工作內容也不一樣，所以當時把它調到55%，然後每多1年加2%，才形成現在對已退的老學長們影響很小，因為我們那時候的設計連80歲以上都不變動，去當工友、技工的不變動，去私立學校兼職的雙餉不變動，都已經做到最小影響、最大照顧及財務衡平。","現在因為政治的因素，都不去看內容，也不看歷史背景，去翻動、攪動它，到最後受害的是現在可能已經年近中壯年的軍公教人員，甚至於新進的軍公教人員繳的錢可能未來要支付這被恢復的錢坑。這件事情不是政治問題，這件事情也不應該有黨派之分，這件事情是國家永續發展，照顧所有公職人員很重要的一個使命。所以我真的希望包含召委，包含不同黨派的同伴們，這件事情不應該拿出來政治操作，它既不道德，而且很危險，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。因為今天登記發言到67位，所以我們比較重視時間，謝謝各位。","下一位請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","賴士葆","翁曉玲","張嘉郡","羅智強","黃建賓","林思銘","張智倫","黃健豪","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","莊瑞雄","王義川","李彥秀","吳沛憶","沈伯洋","林宜瑾","陳俊宇","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","林德福","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","李坤城","林楚茵","張雅琳","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","陳素月","徐富癸","賴惠員","吳秉叡","許智傑","陳培瑜","郭國文"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-05"],"gazette_id":"1140301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查(一)委員賴士葆等31人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」\n案、(二)委員賴士葆等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(三)\n委員張智倫等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員張嘉\n郡等23人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員賴士葆等26人\n擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十八條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「公\n務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條、第三十八條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(七)委員邱鎮\n軍等25 人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、( 八) 國民黨黨團擬具\n「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員林思銘等26人擬具「公務人\n員退休資遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員陳超明等19人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員許宇甄等20人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公務人員退休資\n遣撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委員張智倫等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹\n法第三條、第八條及第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員馬文君等20人擬具「公務人員退\n休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員傅崐萁等21人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員黃建賓等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣\n撫卹法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十八)委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法\n第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(十九)委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十\n八條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員羅智強等16人擬具「公務人員退休資遣撫卹法第三十七條條\n文修正草案」案；二、併案審查(一)委員李彥秀等18人擬具「公務人員任用法第三十六條之一條\n文修正草案」案、(二)委員翁曉玲等22人擬具「公務人員任用法第二十八條之一條文修正草案」\n案","agenda_id":"1140301_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}