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歡迎您"},{"start":2017.205,"end":2043.584,"text":"個人資料保護委員會籌備處法制事務組林玉嘉林組長歡迎您不當黨產處理委員會徐友維許專任委員歡迎您國家安全局秘書士李副主任歡迎您好那再補充剛到場的學者專家有我們前立法院法治局局長羅傳賢羅局長補充介紹謝謝"},{"start":2049.735,"end":2077.376,"text":"好那麼接下來請議事人員宣讀公聽會討論提綱討論提綱一目前的國會改革法案聽證和調查範圍廣大請問如何調整範圍與法制架構以符合權力分立及大法官釋憲之意旨二目前國會改革法案受聽證調查者包括公司部門其中企業之營業秘密研發機密及個人隱私均可能因受調查而遭外洩"},{"start":2078.457,"end":2104.156,"text":"請問在改革法案中應增設何種配套措施避免侵害人民與企業之秘密和隱私三、人民有不自證己罪的權利各國法治均不得強迫人民自我入罪在目前藐視國會罪的草案提案人民是否可能面臨強迫自證己罪或被特與藐視國會罪的二則一困境如有之法制應如何修正以避免侵害人民基本權宣讀完畢"},{"start":2110.489,"end":2138.099,"text":"好 那麼我們現在先進行公聽會程序的說明來 那麼在邀請各位發言之前我們有幾點說明首先請學者專家先發言發言順序依照簽到先後順序如果需要提前發言請先告知主席台我們會視情況著與調整那本院委員呢依照登記先後順序發言如果陸續到場本席會參差安排請委員發言"},{"start":2139.259,"end":2154.899,"text":"最後我們再請政府機關代表發言：針對學者專家以及委員的意見加以回應與會者請到發言台發言在我主席右手邊為學者專家列席機關代表的發言台"},{"start":2155.619,"end":2179.319,"text":"左手邊就是委員的發言台由於公聽會主要是聽取學者專家各界的意見所以我們每位學者專家的發言時間為10分鐘本院委員發言時間為5分鐘目前我們再繼續補充介紹來自國立高雄大學政治法律學系廖益明廖教授歡迎您謝謝"},{"start":2183.046,"end":2199.721,"text":"好那麼關於今天的公聽會我們的題目呢就是如何落實國會的調查權或聽證權以有效監督行政機關而且重要的是避免侵犯人民的自由權或隱私權那麼剛剛的提綱已經做宣讀了"},{"start":2200.382,"end":2228.641,"text":"那我想在這裡要再次的跟與會的出列席的學者專家、機關代表那我們要說明由於這次不分朝野都對於國會改革、健全國會的功能高度的關注社會也非常的密切注意那由於這過程當中不同的黨團有不同的意見主張但是呢由本席擔任召委輪值安排的公聽會我們側重以下的兩個部分"},{"start":2233.483,"end":2247.788,"text":"國會職權在《中華民國憲法》本文及《政協條文》當中已有明確規範。歷年來,多次對於立法院當中的議事運作、各黨派不同的職權、對立法委員職權行使的主張都有不同的看法。"},{"start":2249.349,"end":2263.825,"text":"而不同的政黨執政或在野時期分別都提出了請大法官進行釋憲那大法官在多個釋制文號當中也清楚地表達了對於目前中華民國現行憲法體制五權分立"},{"start":2264.426,"end":2266.328,"text":"國會執權可以在這樣的一個情況之下"},{"start":2281.159,"end":2302.517,"text":"做怎麼樣的健全跟落實我想這是各界關心的尤其是當立法權因為民意的要求對於行政機關的監督日益高漲的同時我們要注意到到底目前我們立法機關是在監督行政機關還是監督人民這就是今天我們這個公聽會的最重要的要紙"},{"start":2302.917,"end":2323.689,"text":"我再重申一遍我們在健全國會調查權或聽證權的同時我們期待著或者社會期待的是希望國會能夠發揮他的職權去有效的監督行政機關這也是憲法當中行政權向立法院負責而立法院要對行政權必要的監督的主要的原因但是在擴充"},{"start":2325.129,"end":2347.196,"text":"國會或健全他的必要的調查權或聽證權的同時如果加上的配套設計在行使聽證或調查權的同時因而窒息到人民團體內部不管是宗教寺廟、財團法人、企業、大型的財團等等內部的相關的屬於人民跟人民團體之間"},{"start":2348.416,"end":2375.197,"text":"的內容或秘密的時候那麼這樣的調查權的行使有沒有適當的規範以避免侵犯到人民的隱私權又或者說公民在進行憲法所保障的行為跟權利的同時那會不會因此不當的受到國會擴充或落實調查權或聽證權在配套上有懲罰不予配合的政府機關的同時會不會擴充到對於"},{"start":2377.85,"end":2402.739,"text":"不與配合的人民有他對他自由權或隱私權的侵犯所以我們這次公聽會很重要的是區分成政府機關跟人民國會調查權跟聽證權的目的是要監督行政機關在進行調查或聽證的同時那麼政府機關應該有完全配合的義務在與三權五權分立的情況之下應與充分的配合但是人民"},{"start":2403.959,"end":2433.125,"text":"並不是在我們憲政機關當中分權制衡的課題之一他是我們國家權利的主體那人民作為國家權利的主體依法應受到憲法各項權利義務的保障的同時可否因為三權或五權的互相制衡因為立法權的擴張而損及到人民應憲法所設到的自由權或隱私權的保障我想這一點就是今天的公聽會要來就教於各位學者專家的部分"},{"start":2433.465,"end":2435.907,"text":"來自於萬國法律事務所的陳一鳴陳律師歡迎您首先我們就請第一位林志傑林教授來發言謝謝請"},{"start":2465.399,"end":2489.457,"text":"主席各位先進今天列席的各位行政機關的部門同僚大家早安大家好我是國立陽明交通大學的林志傑林老師上週三也在此地針對國會調查權行使來進行公聽會當天也是大地震這是一週希望救災行動一切順利大家人員平安"},{"start":2490.097,"end":2518.824,"text":"那麼很令人遺憾的是除了地震以外上週我在這邊做公聽會的意見分享的時候一開始即開宗明義的提出大法官釋字585號解釋確實提到這個立法院由於有這個監督行政機關的需要可以來做除了文件調閱以外的調查那麼可以要求政府以及人民來協助跟幫忙那麼我當時有特別提到"},{"start":2519.344,"end":2528.574,"text":"我代表除了這個臺灣科技法學會的副理事長也由於我們新竹地區有許多重要的科技產業所以我以私部門的觀點來看目前這個擴大調查權及於一般人民還有司法人團體跟企業還有如果司法人團體企業跟人民不配合"},{"start":2540.948,"end":2567.729,"text":"即刻於藐視國會罪是否違反正當法律程序是否抵觸憲法上面的權利分立所以我特別以《刑事訴訟法》中關於被告或者是證人的權利來加以說明那麼如果各位參照上個禮拜三8分鐘的發言從頭到尾我所提到的都是司部門權利應該予以確保一般人民在國會調查權擴大的過程中"},{"start":2570.211,"end":2599.503,"text":"也應該要享有不自證己罪可以拒絕陳述甚至即使他說謊話在刑事訴訟法中我們也不會因為被告說謊或者是被告淹滅自己的罪證而另外加諸被告所謂的藐視司法罪在當時的草案中相關權力的保障複製缺乳是有問題的這樣的一段陳述沒有想到後來競被國民黨的立法委員"},{"start":2600.183,"end":2612.231,"text":"接連二三的召開記者會誣指我說在這個公聽會上確保官員於備詢時有說謊的權利我想當天不論是主席"},{"start":2613.359,"end":2614.2,"text":"立法委員你是享有國會中的"},{"start":2631.135,"end":2631.315,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2646.032,"end":2664.091,"text":"立法委員自己說謊話但是我們的立法委員的行為法中關於自律規範非常欠缺的時候擴大國會調查權而且對於不配合的人民即刻與藐視國會罪我個人認為在程序的正當性上"},{"start":2665.137,"end":2682.883,"text":"以及憲法保障的基本人權上是有問題的那與此再次澄清幸好目前科技設備發達所以全程都有錄音錄影不然的話真的是百口莫辯那第二個我要跟各位報告的是這一次的提綱裡面特別提到了"},{"start":2683.063,"end":2683.283,"text":"主席"},{"start":2709.639,"end":2730.09,"text":"不會因為自己講了謊話或不實的陳述也不會因為自己湮滅了罪證就受到刑事的罰則但是我們對證人除了有給他拒絕證言權比如說我們有提到今天如果所涉犯的事項是跟自己的親屬配偶有關我可以拒絕來作證"},{"start":2731.371,"end":2746.357,"text":"或者是今天我因為作證讓自己陷於罪我也可以拒絕作證所以我們在整個程序中有非常多賦予證人拒絕證言權的權利同時即便他沒有拒絕證言權"},{"start":2747.557,"end":2765.624,"text":"但他有一些特殊的狀況沒有辦法拒絕所謂的拒絕就是負擔偽證罪的責任比如說他有這個心智上的缺陷或者是因為年齡的關係那麼即使他沒有拒絕證言權他必須有作證的義務"},{"start":2767.383,"end":2789.314,"text":"他的證言也不會因為不實的陳述就被科與委證罪所以各位可以想想看在一般的訴訟程序中不論被告不論有作證義務的證人尚且有這麼多的基本權利保障你要說他是保持緘默的權利或者說是他因為不實陳述也不會被科與罰則的權利都可以"},{"start":2792.318,"end":2813.797,"text":"但是請看一下我們目前國民黨的立委所提出的不管是副版或者是其他版本我們可以先看一下副坤祺委員版本在47條跟48條都提到如果今天國會在組成調查委員會時行使調查權課題有兩個第一個是可以要求政府機關部隊"},{"start":2815.618,"end":2836.727,"text":"公法人或司法人各人民團體提交各種的章冊文書相關檔案資訊所以各位可以看到他調查權的課題其實是兩個一個是公部門一個是司部門而且司部門的團體還有司法人的範圍是非常廣大的舉凡各位可以想到的"},{"start":2837.728,"end":2859.198,"text":"基金會 學校 醫院 或者是各種的社團 協會 宮廟這些全部都會被涵蓋在47條裡面同時各位再看它的第二項 它說到如果有必要詢問的時候 可以要求相關人員來接受詢問或命其作證"},{"start":2860.479,"end":2885.121,"text":"所以這裡各位可以看到從立法的構成要件一般的司部門會有兩種身份第一個是被調查的身份第二個是證人的身份為什麼我剛才講說如果今天是自585號解釋你看他的意涵他的意思是不是讓你去調查人民喔而是人民來協助你調查你要調查的跟監督行政有關的事項"},{"start":2886.616,"end":2909.309,"text":"但是現在這樣子的立法構成要件他把司部門分成兩種身份一個是命他來詢問那就是把他當作調查的客氣了第二個是命他作證那意思就是請他當證人來協助調查這個就是上個週三我再三詢問的請問你如何界定司部門在你調查程序中的定性"},{"start":2910.876,"end":2939.901,"text":"司部門的團體跟私人到底是你調查的課題還是協助你調查監督行政的助力這是兩個很不一樣的概念然後各位再看48條48條直接講如果上開人等不配合第一個會有行政罰則那我上個禮拜也說到移送行政法院裁罰罰還是不可行的因為行政法院沒有人在裁罰罰還的那不是行政法院的工作"},{"start":2941.206,"end":2964.718,"text":"第二 如果今天他不配合：有可能面臨的是藐視國會罪所以請各位來看一下47跟48以目前這樣子的一個規範我個人認為跟私人團體或者是私人民眾的隱私不自證己罪的權利或者是我們剛剛提到的可以拒絕證言的權利"},{"start":2966.843,"end":2978.528,"text":"或者是剛剛我提到的有一些特殊狀況不負擔偽證罪責任這樣子的情況通通都沒有那這個當然是非常嚴重的對人民權利的侵害"},{"start":2979.69,"end":3003.473,"text":"我知道各位可能想像的是美國在聽證跟調查時有請這個通用汽車公司或者是大銀行的這個董事長或者是上次T-talk的這個執行長來詢問沒有錯他可以來協助調查但問題是如果今天這些人在美國法上認為有可能自證其罪他們通通可以拒絕證言"},{"start":3005.087,"end":3021.785,"text":"這就是我剛剛提到的因為在美國法上沒有被告跟證人的區分所以今天只要是有自證起罪的風險即使美國他有藐視國會罪那也再次提醒藐視國會罪這個是在三權分立的狀況與我國五權分立有所不同"},{"start":3023.021,"end":3038.949,"text":"那最後要提到的是那如何讓人民來協助調查又合於憲法的規定首先第一個協助調查的事項必須是與立法院職權監督行政有直接關聯的事項如此才不會使得調查權擴大"},{"start":3040.77,"end":3058.057,"text":"讓不肖的立法委員去勒索或者是恐嚇人民跟一般私企業第二個要講的就是訊問跟命其作證我個人認為所有的私部門在這個程序裡只有協助作證的義務沒有被你當作調查課題去訊問的義務如果今天是公務員"},{"start":3059.418,"end":3086.976,"text":"那麼我必須說那是監察院的責任如果今天是一般私人有犯罪的嫌疑對不起那是司法權行使的範圍最後要再提到一次就是我上個禮拜三講的其實所有權責必須要相當如果我們要擴大立法院的調查權讓他可以調查一般私人最重要的就是行為法所以希望後面也能夠將立法委員的行為法一併予以修正完整"},{"start":3087.936,"end":3110.696,"text":"尤其是把倫理規範跟對於立法委員的法則自己內部的懲戒來做一個處理那為什麼要這樣講呢再給我10秒鐘也就是按照這個草案如果沒有界定清楚未來是不是有可能發生立法委員調查立法委員的狀況因為他現在這個草案包山包海除了調查行政機關"},{"start":3112.057,"end":3129.654,"text":"我們也可以預想他非常有可能去調查監察機關未來也有可能自己去調查自己的委員至少我看這個草案裡面並沒有排除所以最終還是要回到立法院的自律跟倫理跟立法院委員的行為法的修正以上報告今天分享 謝謝"},{"start":3131.589,"end":3152.456,"text":"好 謝謝林教授我們補充介紹剛到場的我們有我們前立法委員同僚我們的黃士傑黃律師歡迎您那麼也有來自國立台北大學公共行政暨政策學系的劉嘉偉劉教授歡迎您好"},{"start":3153.867,"end":3162.993,"text":"我們到場委員有莊瑞雄 莊委員到場歡迎您接下來我們有請第二位發言的學者專家 謝孟宇 謝律師請"},{"start":3172.177,"end":3187.666,"text":"主席、委員還有在場的各位先進大家好我是大英法律事務所的先門宇薛律師那其實今天這樣的一個議題的討論我覺得是一件非常具有憲政意義的一件事情那當然我們都知道說立法院他為了要行使自己的憲法職權"},{"start":3188.587,"end":3189.448,"text":"提供參考資料及文件調閱權利及調查權"},{"start":3203.644,"end":3220.79,"text":"那既然他是輔助性的權力 那麼他就要跟他的原本的職權一樣他要同受憲法的一個限制啊 那憲法上面有怎樣的一個限制呢他當然會有權力分立的限制 也就是說本以權力分立你當然可以去做調查可是本以權力分立你也不可以因為行使你的調查權導致其他的權力的這樣的一個核心受損喔"},{"start":3224.991,"end":3225.731,"text":"憲法規範基本權利保障﹑法律保留原則﹑比例原則﹑偵探法律原則"},{"start":3255.151,"end":3271.614,"text":"好 那麼其實是代表官解釋裡面對於調查權所可以調查的對象跟事項的限制其實都有做一些規範啊比如說他就有提到你必須調查的事項因為是為了跟你行使憲法的職權有關你就必須要有重大的關聯你才可以去做調查"},{"start":3272.535,"end":3297.301,"text":"所以未來在發動在規劃上面立法院這邊也應該要去具體的強加說明我這件事情究竟是在行使哪一項我的憲法職權而且我行使憲法職權到底我具體來講它是怎麼樣的一個行使法那我要去調查的對象我要去調查的事項到底跟這項職權有怎麼樣的一個必要性這個是立法院要去強加說明的而不是聊聊幾句話說我為了要"},{"start":3299.662,"end":3321.364,"text":"這個質疑我的預算我為了要審酌法律案所以我有要求行政機關誰誰誰或是要求私人誰誰誰必須提出說明這是太腐爛了我們必須要具體的去說明我覺得這要慎重其事喔那另外呢他的第二點限制就是說國家機關來獨立行使職權受限法保障者就不是他可以調查的範圍譬如說司法機關進行審判監察機關進行調查權等等的可是這邊有一個"},{"start":3322.967,"end":3344.859,"text":"延伸出去的這是憲法機關的層次那在行政機關層次當中也有相關法律是讓他保障他獨立行使職權不受到一些政黨或其他干涉的那我覺得從一個獨立行使職權角色來看角度來看也應該投訴跑上就譬如像NCC等等的獨立機關在某種程度上也應該如同司法機關一樣受到一定的保障而不是立法院所能調查的"},{"start":3346.8,"end":3351.003,"text":"行政首長要以其行政權固有的權能,對於影響或干預行政部門有效運作的資訊都有不公開的權利,這是屬於行政權本質的行政特權。至於行政特權要如何陸陸續續的去把它明文化、確定化,我覺得這件事情是要透過立法跟行政"},{"start":3369.034,"end":3369.054,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3383.971,"end":3413.243,"text":"或是協調不成 形成機關正義的時候走上憲法法庭的角色來做一個機關正義的裁定又或者是未來在我們相關的法令當中可以請求去透過法院來去確認這件事情到底是不是行政特權的範圍範疇之內我想這些都可以陸陸續續去形成這樣的一定的規範那當然剛剛講的是調查權行使的一個限制跟他的對象那他行使的相關的規範跟他的方式當然也要符合大法官解釋的誡命法律保障原則"},{"start":3414.404,"end":3414.784,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3430.74,"end":3447.784,"text":"可是大家知道既然他是只有大法官解釋只有說可以處以罰緩那反面解釋就是怎麼樣他是不可以去動用刑法的不可以動用刑法否則你就是違反釋之585號解釋那同時你也會有違反比例原則跟人身自由的這樣的一個基本權利的保障那另外這樣的處罰緩的決議一定是要由議論會來決議不是由委員會決議"},{"start":3451.885,"end":3473.946,"text":"當然也不可能透過行政法院來裁法我想這個是最基本的除此之外既然你做了裁法我們最重視的就是事前事後的救濟的保障事前事中我們有一些去我給你機會給你提供你不提供你又講不出正當理由然後你去提了相關的法院訴訟法院訴訟認為你有提出的疑問你不提出我也給你事前事中的程序保障了"},{"start":3474.406,"end":3493.98,"text":"OK可是你還是不聽話那我還是處罰你處罰你之後但是你還是要給我一個事後救濟的一個機會嘛那事後救濟的機會呢那因為這是立法院所做的這樣的決定他性質上還是行政處分所以你對他原則上還是要提起訴願那訴願的話因為是立法院所做的決定那你原則上訴 立法院我不知道有沒有訴願審議委員會如果沒有的話未來可能必須要偵測這樣的一個單位"},{"start":3498.383,"end":3521.07,"text":"來去處理有關於未來面臨到這樣的處以罰緩的情況那個當事人要如何救濟的這個部分那當然相關調查權行使都應該要用法律來規定那至少就目前來提起行政法的話那至少除了輸贏以外那或是說我們一些事項是不是該提出等等的都應該可以向這個行政法院來提起相關的這個訴訟來保障好 那麼"},{"start":3525.083,"end":3531.125,"text":"提供資料權跟文件調查權行使的限制來說其實本質上它也是調查權的一環所以原則上剛剛講的調查權所受的限制它應該也要受限制當然甚至729號解釋理由書也都有講比如說國家獨立行使集權受限化保障你也是不可以去要求要調閱這些相關的文件等等的"},{"start":3548.171,"end":3570.03,"text":"那即便你要調卷的你相關的目的跟範圍都應該明確而不是隨隨便便的就要去做一個調閱那偵查中的案件不可以調閱啊等等這些其實在4-729號都有詳加的一個說明那我這邊就不再贅述那只是說無論是請使調查權也好文件調查權也好今天如果你涉及到人民的"},{"start":3570.911,"end":3570.931,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3590.636,"end":3608.788,"text":"雖然他跟憲法行使職權有關可是他畢竟也涉及到人民的權利的時候這時候跟立法去監督行政的角度就有所不同你所施以的力你能夠對他來調查的力道跟強度的要求也不一樣也就是說今天你對行政官員的一個調查跟請求提供文件"},{"start":3609.366,"end":3635.692,"text":"你可能也許有比較高的正當性本於權力分立的角色可是今天如果是對人民來行使調查權來行使文件調閱權的時候這時候因為人民他是作為一個基本權力的主體你所要要求的正當性跟必要性必須要相較於行政官員要來得更高我想這邊一定要做這樣的一個不同的一個合理的一個不同的差別的一個對待我想這是一個必要的那另外當然對於涉及到相關的"},{"start":3637.219,"end":3658.527,"text":"資料的收集 因為這涉及到營業秘密 涉及到隱私 涉及到名譽那你也應當要有相關保護的配套措施譬如說 一定要有一個獨立的委員會來去收集這些東西而且收集要怎麼樣利用 要怎麼處理以及處理之後要怎麼樣歸還跟銷毀這些東西都必須要有一套明確的規定那甚至誰能利用 怎麼利用這些東西都應該要有規範"},{"start":3659.767,"end":3671.655,"text":"而不是打著說我要調查民意然後去把人民的資料收集起來把企業的營業名利收集起來之後然後又隨意的亂用然後甚至借透露出去我想這對人民來講不是一個好事"},{"start":3673.646,"end":3695.531,"text":"那另外呢 即使大家爭執這麼多 特別是大家對於調查權 哪些東西 哪些人 哪些事情要被調查 哪些文件要被提供呢那其實這些是大家的爭執點所在那當然要有一個適當的機制來去競速的定分指針 這個東西也不能拖太久 一定要盡快的能夠來做一個決定那這部分呢 其實"},{"start":3697.042,"end":3710.691,"text":"就剛剛講有些事項是在大法官解釋已經規定是不能調閱或是不能調查的那當然就不能那其餘的事項當然就是要透過討論跟互動來做決定那麼這時候司法的介入也是OK的齁那剛剛已經有講了憲法第44條有總統可以來解決院跟院的爭執憲法司法法第65條第一項就"},{"start":3716.909,"end":3734.716,"text":"國家最高機關來行使職權發生憲法上爭議的時候可以請憲法法庭來做裁判但是目前這兩條的法令顯然不足啦齁那在過去增調會的條例當中是有透過法院向法院來提起確認訴訟來確認我到底有沒有配合調查或提供文件的義務啦齁那不過就這件事情來講議法院行使調查權跟行政權認為這東西我該不該提供該不該接受調查這件事情"},{"start":3740.905,"end":3767.287,"text":"可能是屬於一個公法上的爭議沒有問題可是它到底是一個憲法的爭議要由憲法法庭來處理又或者是它是可以由我們的行政法院來做處理我覺得這部分大家可以再討論再看看那這部分大家也可以參考李政三大法官在4-729號的協同意見書它裡面有介紹德國法在處理這上面的時候它是怎麼處理這樣的一個爭議它有的是透過憲法法庭有的是透過這個專業法庭來做一個解決這部分大家可以去參考那"},{"start":3769.896,"end":3786.43,"text":"講最後還是要特別講一下就是說剛剛講就是雖然可以對違反義務調查者處以罰款那所謂的違反協助調查義務其實文藝上除了拒絕提供文字拒絕提供以外也當然包含了做一些不實的陳述廣義的文藝上來講是這個樣子"},{"start":3788.812,"end":3809.677,"text":"原則上你是不可以施加這樣的一個刑法否則你就違反585啦那當然憲法法庭113判 憲判制第1號判決意旨也有提到你刑法法規是剝奪人民的生命人民的人身自由跟財產權你的行使應該更加的謹慎要嚴守憲法的罪行法定原則而且必須要符合明確性的原則那既然我們的"},{"start":3810.777,"end":3838.862,"text":"而且也要符合這樣的最後手段性跟刑法的牽引性既然我們除了透過處以罰緩那我們又透過了司法的程序可以去確認有沒有這項義務如果確認你有這項義務你不做我還可以透過行政強制執行去做強制你提出的時候又加上罰緩的手段那是不是這樣子就已經足夠了那刑法這時候是不是已經不符合最後刑法這時候應該是不符合這樣的一個最後手段性的要求啦所以結論來講我認為是不適宜做處罰那另外草案當中還有提到"},{"start":3839.798,"end":3859.646,"text":"其他藐視國會之行為也要處罰這樣就很明顯是違反一個法律明確性什麼叫藐視什麼叫藐視 要怎麼去定義藐視我想這件事情可能要特別的慎重一點以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們謝律師接下來請第三位紅頂法律事務所陳佑星陳律師請"},{"start":3868.573,"end":3893.031,"text":"主席現場各位專家學者其實針對這個題目首先第一個部分我們應該要先參究就是國會調查權要怎麼樣才不違反權力分立的這個原則其實這一點應該是我想在座不管是我們看到我們行政院或司法院這邊所提出來的書面報告或者是就算是立法院提出來書面報告對這一點也都非常的謹慎那不過我想我們這邊就可以說的直白一點"},{"start":3894.453,"end":3910.055,"text":"這個國會調查權要符合權力分立原則的話他就只有在跟立法相關的事項裡面進行的調查才會符合也就是說立法委員請不要透過這次的修法然後把自己變成一個法官的角色來做裁判"},{"start":3910.876,"end":3938.747,"text":"那你的所有的調查都是以立法需要作為其目的如果不這麼做的話那麼賦予自己成為一個法官來判斷今天來到我的聽證會所做報告的這些證人也好或者是民間的名人或官員他們有可能對我做出了一個說謊的裁判說謊的說詞的時候這個時候你等於是自己當法官然後認為他們違法所以我設定了一個刑事規則"},{"start":3939.887,"end":3955.018,"text":"但是你是立法權你不應該扮演法官的角色你怎麼可以認定今天來到你公聽會上的人是在說謊或者他說的話不實呢更何況立法權在行使的過程中很容易會陷入的一個問題就是"},{"start":3956.599,"end":3978.881,"text":"大家在價值觀上的取捨立法權跟司法最大的差異就在我們認為如果司法權我們是可以去判斷出一個事情的是非對錯但立法你在立法上我們尊重不同的想法價值觀所定出來的法律憑什麼因為來這個公聽會所陳述意見的人的意見可能跟你這個立法委員不同你就認為他是藐視國會呢"},{"start":3980.822,"end":3998.532,"text":"這個光是一個基本的立論就已經有很大的問題當你把立法的調查擴張到可能會有刑事責任的時候會不會讓立法委員變成了一個法官的角色而我們很清楚的知道在基本的三權分立底下立法權跟司法權就不應當有這樣的一個混淆"},{"start":3999.572,"end":4024.146,"text":"其次我們在立法上當我們在基於立法這個角度來思考這個問題辦理公聽會或聽證會的時候來到這裡的不管是民間的民眾或者是行政機關的官員都是在協助立法者立法請不要預設他是一個被告請不要預設他是一個說謊的人這是一個非常荒謬的想法他們提供給你的意見"},{"start":4025.427,"end":4050.378,"text":"是在協助你了解關於這個立法範圍中你要更了解這個事實更了解這個立法的內容讓你去決定你要訂出一個什麼樣的法律來他們是協助的人他們並不是被你預設負有責任的人你今天邀請一位人一位這個民間的也許是公司他來到你這邊進行聽證他其實也可以拒絕你嘛"},{"start":4051.755,"end":4067.698,"text":"既然他都可以拒絕你了為什麼他來到了這個聽證會上之後會因為他說的內容跟你的想法不一致就被你認定是藐視國會就被你認為是這個說謊呢這是一個非常荒謬的邏輯啊他們只是協助立法者"},{"start":4068.439,"end":4068.839,"text":"這個邏輯是不正確的那麼"},{"start":4087.631,"end":4110.247,"text":"在我們目前看到的這些草案裡面大概都有幾個問題我們先把最嚴重最嚴重的一個違憲的問題丟出來就是釋字585號明明白白的說了它這裡面不只是提到民間的民眾還包括行政官員他們如果真的在你認為這個調查過程中有這個比如不實的陳說什麼釋字585號給你的處罰方式叫做罰緩"},{"start":4115.567,"end":4138.425,"text":"這不只是民間民眾 連行政官員都是到底為什麼我們的立法委員尤其這個我們看到草案幾乎是國民黨提出的這些內容可以直接要求刑罰化這是一個明明白白的違反了大法官解釋的一個行為那我不知道為什麼我們立法委員要堅持這麼做他已經告訴你了 你可以頂多在合理範圍內處以罰款"},{"start":4140.106,"end":4163.586,"text":"他完全沒有賦予你把他刑罰化的權利那如果說立法權這麼的不尊重司法或一直想要取代司法我覺得這會是我們憲政上一個很大的危機我們應該要謹守自己的角色而不是說覺得我來當就好了我又可以當立法委員我又可以當法官什麼都我來我來判斷你們其他的權利都不上道都不夠好這是一個很基本的錯誤"},{"start":4164.987,"end":4193.135,"text":"其次我們再來提到所以我認為這個關於國會調查權然後要如何避免到侵犯個人隱私還有人民不自證脊椎權利4585號已經有明白的表示那我們也要去思考的是在整個程序上國會調查的擴大或是如果能夠協助立法權的行使這當然也是我們所樂見那它就必須要在程序上必須要擁有一些適當的做法"},{"start":4193.655,"end":4210.929,"text":"包括我們有沒有不公開的聽證會我們有沒有秘密聽證會的設置我們有沒有讓民眾獲得司法權有可以合法的行使拒絕證言或是不自證己罪的權利有沒有行使緘默的權利我們從另外一個角度來思考"},{"start":4211.73,"end":4231.702,"text":"在我們國家體制底下對人民要施加最嚴重的裁罰那就是來自司法權的刑罰但是就連這樣的司法權的行使過程中我們都賦予了被告我們賦予了證人緘默權我們賦予了他拒絕證言的權利但來到了立法院以後我們反而連這些權利都沒有了"},{"start":4232.761,"end":4242.621,"text":"這個合理嗎這根本就是一個本末倒置的情況立法院你又不是法官我連到法官面前我可以行使緘默權我可以拒絕證言結果我來到立法院卻不行"},{"start":4243.601,"end":4262.717,"text":"那我可不可以拒絕聽證你邀請我來的時候我可不可以拒絕聽證那不然邏輯上怎麼會通呢這個法案看起來好像很擴張了立法院的這個權力可是事實上他的這個部分整個邏輯都不通的我連在司法權我都可以拒絕了我來到立法院我卻拒絕不了"},{"start":4264.178,"end":4277.026,"text":"我拒絕司法權的行使調查司法院我作為被告我拒絕證言我行使緘默權我作為證人我拒絕證言我會不會被刑罰處理呢不會的"},{"start":4278.066,"end":4294.52,"text":"好 我就算到了法院去我到了檢察官我行使監控權我不會被刻以刑事責任我不會被處罰要關進去好 或者是罰金但是 如果我來到的是立法院我一旦拒絕了國會調查我反而會有罪我反而會有罪"},{"start":4295.64,"end":4312.028,"text":"我想擴大國會調查權力去讓我們的立法委員們可以有更好的這個能力更好的武器去增加自己在立法品質上的提升這個方向絕對是正確的這一點沒有人會懷疑"},{"start":4313.129,"end":4327.923,"text":"可是你不能為了要增加自己調查的權利把自己變成法官的角色現在我們看到的就是這樣立法院 立法委員把自己變成法官這就絕對違反了權利分立你把自己變成法官也就罷了"},{"start":4328.624,"end":4345.414,"text":"人家真正的法官都還沒有那麼嚴苛的權利去要求他的被告跟證人必須要很完完整整如實的回答我們在法制上都賦予他們拒絕的機會但是我們現在立法委員變成法官以後反而沒辦法了"},{"start":4346.328,"end":4360.727,"text":"反而沒辦法了所以這就是我們目前在看到的國民黨的諸多委員提出來的草案裡面包括刑法的修正立法院職權行使的修正他都是在把立法委員變成法官並且"},{"start":4361.888,"end":4378.562,"text":"讓立法院變成法官之後的這些民眾跟行政機關都沒有拒絕證言的可能性沒有行使緘默的可能性而且這個不行使呢如果你行使如果你緘默或是拒絕證言的結果你都可能會陷入刑事處罰的危險"},{"start":4380.463,"end":4407.518,"text":"這一切都違反了權力分立的基本原則所以在以上的一個說明之後我想目前的草案必須說它根本就沒有辦法被接受無論從權力分立的角度然後無論從民眾的權力侵害的角度都不能夠被接受的這是以上我的發言 謝謝好 謝謝我們陳教授接下來有請東海大學林教授發言"},{"start":4428.486,"end":4455.362,"text":"主席 各位關懷憲政跟國會改革的朋友 大家早安剛才聽到上面這個律師的講話 我就感到很奇怪 非常的奇怪而且我看這個名單上 14個邀請者 有6位律師事務所臺大法律系 政大法律系的教授 沒有半個人被邀請"},{"start":4457.191,"end":4486.14,"text":"這說法很偏頗難道現在是利私治國嗎今天這個公聽會我寫了三千多次的書面發言資料以及提供了四十幾件我寫過的論文談到憲政的災難 立法院的問題請大家參考我現在就來做一些口頭上的表白"},{"start":4488.507,"end":4501.378,"text":"我們都知道國會的首次政黨輪替是在2016年2月1號那個蔡英文在政黨輪替前的2015年12月8號她承諾"},{"start":4509.24,"end":4529.12,"text":"2016年2月1號新國會誕生他就要做改變臺灣從2月1號的新國會開始現在8年已經經過了吧蔡英文有做任何半件事嗎所以啊"},{"start":4531.311,"end":4559.625,"text":"我也在這裡強調他的歷史定位恐是最會欺騙敗壞憲政的惡靈將會受到臺灣人民最嚴厲的譴責現在被蔡英文拖延方會8年的國會改革在國會第二次政黨輪替後重新啟動必須要就這8年來國會失去哪些功能究竟應該如何修復"},{"start":4561.079,"end":4580.661,"text":"來前面檢討不是只針對這個總統到立法院國情報告立法院行使人事同意前的機制以及國會調查前及藐視國會責任這個來立法這個都是初步都是起步是手段"},{"start":4582.331,"end":4607.862,"text":"應該要做的是透過國會調查權的建制掌握到真正的事實跟資訊才能夠有效的立法才能夠有效的審議預算今天對人民傷害最大的是什麼這預算亂編亂審對人民傷害最大的是法律沒有為人民設計"},{"start":4610.515,"end":4636.408,"text":"專門為官延跟惡傷設計這是一個國會讓人家失望的一個地方我現在就這個提綱來說啊國會調查權大法官已經做了很多的解釋了明顯只要它符合權力分立原則、制合原則、比例原則﹐法律明確性原則及正當法律宣言就可以了"},{"start":4637.355,"end":4661.991,"text":"在法律上設計你注意到這些事項但是不能因此像有前面幾個律師講的說好像國會只限於的立法不對啊 立法權有很多的像那個羅山前局長這裡他的書面文件就寫得很好啊彈劾總統要不要調查有新台幣調查嗎"},{"start":4666.667,"end":4684.679,"text":"現在也不是國會啦當然由立法院調查所以這個體制的缺漏必須要補充另外就是這裡面所說的這個大法官大法官也出了很多錯我舉一個最簡單的4至325號解釋"},{"start":4688.41,"end":4715.403,"text":"他說,嚴屬於監察院中之彈劾、糾結、糾正權及行使此等之間﹐依照憲法所規定的調查權﹐憲法徵求業未修改﹐此項調查權能因專由監察權行使這是完全錯的為什麼?因為監察院已經不是國會了他對於這個調查權,他沒有辦法行使調查權了"},{"start":4716.604,"end":4739.899,"text":"所以最大的缺失就是把舊法條表面解釋向這個憲法法條陰謀似的攬攬自已沒有把這個彈劾總統的這個調查權移交給唯一國會的立法院不要把這個憲法不是祖宗遺訓大法官的解釋也不是聖經教條"},{"start":4742.27,"end":4754.09,"text":"大法官常常在出錯大法官最近的表現已經成為憲政體制的寄生蟲大家好好看他們最近的解釋扭七八糟的"},{"start":4755.677,"end":4770.155,"text":"那我現在這個在談的公聽會的第二點跟第三點的提示這個就是很好笑這個都是移花接木 節外深知 擴大先難 意圖混淆 擾亂社會認知的惡行"},{"start":4772.495,"end":4793.311,"text":"是民進黨人斐棄對臺灣信諾﹐背離國會改革初衷﹐試圖阻擋立法院一線合法建立調查權﹐調查權法制架構之歪柔學行我簡單的跟不客氣的說都是憲政白癡的說法為什麼"},{"start":4794.693,"end":4823.255,"text":"因為立法院要行使憲法上的職權是公共利益公益至上為了國家的安全跟社會公益的必要營業秘密個人隱私都要退後忘記了憲法的最高原則是公益至上私權在國家必要的情況都可以侵犯甚至它的營業秘密都可以徵收"},{"start":4824.926,"end":4851.212,"text":"他的專利都可以徵收這簡直就是我們網路上所謂歪樓血行的行為這點我是非常看不起民進黨人我也看不起那些我特別來寫了一篇文章請我們這裡科技專業的學者叫林志傑教授"},{"start":4852.41,"end":4874.933,"text":"請大家看一下57頁﹖法例人漠視憲政災難搞選舉的悲劇﹖你們要看看憲政現在有沒有災難﹖大家承不承認現在是在憲政災難當中﹖然後竟然要去復航﹖剛才那個律師我也希望你看看我的第57頁的這篇文章"},{"start":4878.991,"end":4897.085,"text":"國會今天要談國會改革 一定要抓住它的核心 要使立法更加完美 要使預算審議更加慎重 更加看緊人民的荷包我這裡這幾段後頭的發言你可以看到"},{"start":4898.123,"end":4922.555,"text":"其中這8年來蔡英文及主控國會的民進黨最對不起臺灣人民的是前面敗壞了國會審議易結算案﹑法律案及行政命令之審查其中最明顯的是易算之胡編亂審及延旦這8年也跟得到易算多沒有按照易算法的規定在"},{"start":4925.046,"end":4942.552,"text":"一年前一年前預算開始年度一年前的11月底預決通常拖到年度已經開始一個月多月了以後才預決現在更嚴重了中央政府總計劃案之國營事業"},{"start":4944.844,"end":4954.953,"text":"跟非盈利基金的這個預算6兆2千多億現在預算這個會計年度已經進行第4個月了現在都還沒預決這個民進黨要不要感到很丟臉"},{"start":4966.388,"end":4992.755,"text":"這關預算 結算更是離譜所以大家請看我的第14頁第15頁我談到這個結算結算有很多功能啦結算的功能是什麼它這個行政院透過結算向立法院負責透過結算以解除中央政府機關所負責財務責任透過結算公開財政事實以立人民監督以考核政府"},{"start":4995.114,"end":5020.553,"text":"透過結算防止公會防止浪費公帑透過結算作為中央政府行政效力考核的評級以及透過結算作為編制下一年度中央總政府總預算的參考這些功能完全被破壞掉這個民進黨有沒有罪啊罪孽深重因為時間上的關係啊我最後談的決議這個還有一個法律案"},{"start":5022.182,"end":5050.329,"text":"公民監督國會聯盟指出：立法院每會期：真正審議法案的時間不長：時間短：而法案造成立法修法品質：非常不好的現象每個會期現在只剩：第二個會期只剩：三個到：制定三個到五個法律案其他幾十個修正案都條文的修正立法院的功能敗壞到如此國會改革要更大步伐的邁進"},{"start":5052.299,"end":5071.28,"text":"謝謝大家好 謝謝林教授的發言補充介紹到場的立法院有我們黃國昌黃委員翁曉琳翁委員以及來自國立雲林科技大學科技法律研究所的吳威志吳教授歡迎您"},{"start":5072.461,"end":5096.197,"text":"好 那麼因為今天我們公聽會主要是聆聽學者專家的建言因此我們對於每位發表意見者我們都予以尊重我們不會有任何立場或者是意識形態或是價值判斷的偏差我們完完全全尊重大家的發言不過因為剛剛有提到本委員會邀請的學者專家在這裡要做個主席有義務做個說明"},{"start":5097.337,"end":5111.126,"text":"公聽會舉行在跟委員會內規目前我們會根據政黨的分佈目前公聽會的邀請由民主進步黨推薦六位國民黨推薦六位均以推薦"},{"start":5112.327,"end":5132.182,"text":"民眾黨推薦一位未推薦,另外由輪值召委邀請兩位,因此今天邀請14位其中依據他們的職業身分別有6位教授、6位律師、有一位前政府官員以及一位民間團體的理事長"},{"start":5133.183,"end":5156.688,"text":"本席要說明的我們尊重各黨團推薦的學者專家以去接受同時也要表達我們對於學者專家並沒有任何職位職業尊卑的偏好我們也不會因為有六位教授就稱為教授治國也不會因為有六位律師就稱為律師治國我們更不會有因為學校別"},{"start":5157.608,"end":5157.889,"text":"黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":5191.416,"end":5216.582,"text":"謝謝主席非常感謝今天受邀的所有的學者專家所提供的寶貴的建言我相信對本委員會接下來在審議有關於國會改革相關的法案都會非常的有幫助最近這段時間因為公聽會的舉行讓我又重新的去拜讀了在2012年12月13號也是在這個會議室"},{"start":5220.262,"end":5235.333,"text":"所舉辦的如何落實憲法第67條立法院各種委員會的邀請政府人員以及社會上有關係人員到會備詢以健全國會職權及深化民主發展公聽會的會議記錄"},{"start":5237.871,"end":5266.028,"text":"當年非常多的立委 非常多的學者專家其實所提出來的問題 所提出來的建議在經過了12年以後的今天依然適用也就是12年前所點出來我國立法院聽證調查制度不夠完備而導致沒有辦法有效監督行政權的問題"},{"start":5267.714,"end":5291.192,"text":"過了12年依然殘存因此12年後我們又在這邊繼續的舉行公聽會聆聽各界寶貴的意見作為我們下一個階段審查法案的建議在拜讀過去在公聽會上面所發表非常多重要的意見裡面"},{"start":5292.659,"end":5317.096,"text":"我覺得鄭麗君委員也是我們現在接下來馬上要接任行政院副院長的鄭麗君委員他說的阿非常的好他說我希望今天的公聽會不是為了黨派之私而在這邊錯誤的解釋法律或既有的規範而應該以國會如何提升品質"},{"start":5319.811,"end":5332.68,"text":"國會如何更進一步擴大人民參與讓人民更信任國會讓人民覺得國會是有效能的國會是可以監督制衡能力的國會我們應該朝這個方向來討論"},{"start":5335.851,"end":5354.093,"text":"大法官會議是自461號解釋文載民立法院為了行使憲法所賦予的職權可以依照憲法67條的規定設各種委員會邀請政府人員及社會上有關係的人員到會備詢"},{"start":5355.936,"end":5375.726,"text":"即使我們今天充分解釋法律即使我們今天修法讓國會立委職權更加完備而不是像缺了牙的老虎否則弱勢的國會要如何監督政府尤其我們今天的政府現在如此的失能"},{"start":5377.213,"end":5405.131,"text":"拜讀12年前這樣的發言令人非常的佩服遺憾的是12年後我們還在原地踏步針對在國會前說謊要不要負責任我在上一次的公聽會已經點名得很清楚了當時的立法委員也是我們現在總統府的秘書長林佳龍說得非常的好他如果說謊"},{"start":5406.795,"end":5432.23,"text":"是要對其在國會殿堂上所做的不實證詞或虛偽證據負起刑法上政治上的責任而當初林佳龍委員所提出來的立法院職權刑事法的修正草案也明文的宰明了這樣子的原則我們看不管中央政府體制如何設計總統制、內閣制、半總統制"},{"start":5436.67,"end":5464.928,"text":"我們可以看到民主先進國家的國會對於在國會說謊前科與刑責可以說是已經是一個相當普遍的立法我們如果看實際具體的例子的話包括前總統川普他的私人律師不是政府官員Michael Cohen在國會裡面做偽證判刑兩個月"},{"start":5467.008,"end":5489.895,"text":"另外一位媒體的高層在2021年接受眾議院傳喚的時候拒絕出庭拒絕提交證據被判了兩個像藐視國會的罪刑判刑4個月Navarro一樣拒絕國會"},{"start":5492.426,"end":5515.214,"text":"傳喚的通知 藐視國會判刑4個月拉巴洛在拒絕的時候援引了美國的行政特權executive privilege但是沒有讓國會所接受而他所提出的這個黨建牌同樣的沒有被法院所接受美國對委證罪相關的規範"},{"start":5516.656,"end":5544.397,"text":"在美國刑法典第18章1001條寫得非常的清楚任何人在有關於行政、立法、司法三權有管轄權的事項刻意的做虛偽的陳述刻意的提供虛偽的證據都必須要面臨刑責除了罰金以外還有5年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":5545.733,"end":5566.663,"text":"這個條的條文其實在我們2017年施改國事會議討論防害司法公正罪的時候就已經清楚的進行了討論我們法務部甚至自己也提出了修法的建議所以我今天看到行政院所提出來的書面意見"},{"start":5567.583,"end":5579.584,"text":"我要給行政院的建議是請你們回去看看2017年的時候法務部在撕改國事會議當中所提出來的書面意見是什麼"},{"start":5580.782,"end":5600.965,"text":"每一個人當然有不自證己罪的權利但問題是可以讓你拒絕證言的權利並不代表了你捨棄了拒絕證言的權利或是沒有拒絕證言的權利選擇出庭還可以什麼說謊這兩個完全不同層次的問題"},{"start":5602.106,"end":5619.877,"text":"當初在司改國事會議就討論得非常清楚了所以看到行政院今天交出來這樣的報告我必須要說讓人非常非常的失望其實在美國所進行的聽證程序當中最讓我動容的是在2010年的時候"},{"start":5622.278,"end":5643.726,"text":"當時美國的眾議院對於TOYOTA的汽車它的油門踩下去竟然會爆衝導致了導致了非常多的家庭面臨了人員死傷的悲劇的時候那個時候的眾議院他們召開了聽證調查的委員會聽證調查的委員會傳喚了誰到"},{"start":5649.675,"end":5676.055,"text":"眾議院的調查委員會出庭證言呢傳喚的就是TOYOTA的總裁TOYOTA在日本的總裁在美國的總裁兩位總裁都在眾議院的調查委員會宣誓而且為證實在那一場聽證調查程序當中TOYOTA的總裁對於他們自己的汽車造成了消費者這麼多的傷亡"},{"start":5677.093,"end":5704.48,"text":"他誠摯的表示了歉意他誠懇的承諾了TOYOTA會負起所有的責任而且他對於TOYOTA汽車在追求發展速度的過程當中沒有注意到消費者的保護導致了這麼多悲劇的產生表達了誠摯的歉意我想"},{"start":5706.185,"end":5730.442,"text":"這個是在一個民主國家的國會當中我們所希望可以看到的健全的聽證調查制度而不是在野的時候強調聽證調查權的重要性等到自己掌握權力了以後不斷的想方設法想要國會自我閹割想要國會變成護航部隊洗力部隊"},{"start":5731.403,"end":5758.661,"text":"我相信每一個政黨有的時候會在吵有的時候會在演我們今天在這裡大家共同的目標共同的希望是為我們台灣這塊美麗的土地為我們的下一代建立一個健全的國會聽證調查制度再次感謝所有學者專家的參與我相信各位的發言留在立法院公報上對這次的修法"},{"start":5759.461,"end":5766.01,"text":"對未來任何研究這個主題的學子都會有非常重要的參考意義謝謝大家"},{"start":5782.806,"end":5809.287,"text":"主席各位學者專家大家好今天很榮幸有這個機會來跟大家分享一下我個人的觀察還有剛剛聆聽了好幾位專家學者的報告那麼我想其實我跟前面一二三位的報告其實觀點差不多所以我就不做特別的深入的說明不過基本上今天所要討論的大致上我觀察了我們得到的關係文書當然可以分為三類"},{"start":5811.089,"end":5816.294,"text":"立法委員行為法修訂,如何促進立委的行為規範與準則立法院職權行使法及聽證調查範圍的擴大到私部門及個人"},{"start":5835.352,"end":5846.123,"text":"實部門及個人又有兩類的狀況一類的狀況就比較強調這個行政裁罰的方式那另外一個就是我們今天所比較關注的關於這個藐視國會罪的兩個類型"},{"start":5850.035,"end":5870.148,"text":"所以在整體而言這次的關係文書內可以看到我們今天對於國會的改革裡面這一部分關於聽證跟調查的部分大致有這幾部分但我們大概看一下基本上根據大家都引述到大法官釋制第585號的解釋"},{"start":5871.869,"end":5898.268,"text":"那麼他是這個非常清楚的我們知道我們立法院跟立法機關的調查權跟司法機關的調查權是不一樣的立法機關的調查權主要是為了確保政府的這個合法的運作還有透明還有這個合乎民意那麼司法機關的調查就比較是屬於法律的公正性以及打擊犯罪那這樣的情況之下我們可以了解在"},{"start":5899.548,"end":5921.484,"text":"立法的這個調查權上本來就有一些限制剛剛我們知道美國的做法可能跟我們不太一樣但是我剛剛我想第一位林智傑老師已經講得非常清楚了我們目前這個立法的內容跟美國的這個做證的狀況是不完全一樣的而且今天的條文有相對的不同那麼我們也看到這個585號裡面所說的"},{"start":5924.468,"end":5925.008,"text":"公職委員會主席"},{"start":5941.398,"end":5943.819,"text":"立法院院會或經委員會決議則要求有關機關、法人、人民、團體或個人就特定議案涉及事項提供參考資料"},{"start":5970.036,"end":5976.601,"text":"立法院的委員會決議也相對容易了很多這樣的偷渡方式放在立法上面是非常不恰當"},{"start":5981.544,"end":5982.604,"text":"政府機關部隊公私法人團體五日內提供檔案"},{"start":6002.791,"end":6002.991,"text":"通知相關指定地點詢問"},{"start":6017.91,"end":6036.35,"text":"基本上他僭越了這個司法機關的調查跟審判權那這一點我相信大多數今天所提出來的議題裡面對這一點都相對的不贊同那麼我們台灣科技法學會這樣的立場也是不贊同的那麼接下來我想特別說明一下"},{"start":6038.592,"end":6063.699,"text":"這次有關於到底是國會能不能說謊剛剛自己老師也特別提到了他第一次報告的時候剛剛我們提到了聽到了黃國昌委員慷慨激昂的說明美國國會的狀況但基本上我們所強調的一個部分就是兩個國家的立法的層次跟權力分立的狀況是不一樣的"},{"start":6067.12,"end":6073.263,"text":"最主要的就是提到了我們國家根本藐視司法罪或對妨礙司法罪都沒有不完整在這種情況之下在司法體系裡面我們被貴告相對權力的保障都還在目前為止所謂的"},{"start":6089.269,"end":6089.429,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6107.057,"end":6127.262,"text":"保護的都要知我們現在立法院所提到的藐視國會罪來個嚴格所以整個藐視國會罪整體的立法跟背後的對於其他權力的僭越我相信都是不恰當的這一點我們要提出我們的看法"},{"start":6128.527,"end":6147.222,"text":"那麼我們覺得相對的當然跟今天不一定有關係我們台灣在整個司法裡面藐視司法或者是妨礙司法罪應該要比更早的比這個藐視國會罪更早的定律才是那麼第二個我要特別跟大家說明的就是"},{"start":6149.023,"end":6165.636,"text":"對於民間、企業、人民團體跟個人有受到立法院聽證調查的干擾的問題這一點我相信是我們今天探討的主要目的那麼當然知道現在立法院本身對於自律的要求並不是那麼嚴格所以就這一點來看的話對於民間的干擾甚至於因為有藐視國會罪可以造成的寒產效應那麼包括對於企業權利值得隨便行使的話"},{"start":6180.968,"end":6191.814,"text":"行為事項不確定會造成社會不安全或不安定的形貌這一點我們也是建議 假如公聽會有機會的話可以找到全國工業總會 工業區的全國聯合會去說明一下 看看他們會不會跳腳"},{"start":6197.458,"end":6221.015,"text":"我相信這一點今天如果只是專家學者或政府公部門來討論的話恐怕不是很恰當的所以整體而言我想簡單的結論今天因為每一位講者都超過時間我來節省一下時間我們建議目前還是要刪除這個藐視國會罪如果真的要定的話那麼它需要考慮的配套措施非常的廣大那麼以目前來看的話非常不恰當"},{"start":6222.216,"end":6223.477,"text":"好 謝謝劉理事長接下來有請雲科大楊志傑教授發言請"},{"start":6255.111,"end":6265.43,"text":"好這樣各位先生大家好其實不管是總統治國家或內閣治國家國會都有調查權也都有"},{"start":6266.954,"end":6267.154,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6289.347,"end":6291.469,"text":"為了行使職權的必要：他有國會調查權"},{"start":6313.319,"end":6313.479,"text":"主席"},{"start":6329.073,"end":6353.235,"text":"好 那不過我們要先了解這個如果是用聽證制度的話呢它是類似這個法院開庭的審理然後其實在美國呢要用聽證就是要用傳票來傳喚證人到美國國會去作證而且出庭作證要宣誓但是在台灣呢我們一般都是用拒絕的方式那如果你答應了要"},{"start":6355.344,"end":6364.249,"text":"這個出席國會聽證去作證你是然後你也宣誓或拒絕了你是不可以說謊的除非你有拒絕證言權"},{"start":6366.533,"end":6392.671,"text":"那我們首先關心這個拒絕證言權尤其剛剛比較大家關心的私人或私人企業會不會因為他的私人或私人企業就可以比較不被傳喚不受調查事實上沒有至少在美國的法律沒有剛剛先進都舉了很多美國大企業被調查的案子那最近大家也都最關心的前陣子美國的TikTok的"},{"start":6393.872,"end":6418.267,"text":"執行長周壽之接受美國參議院的調查當然這個是參議院為了行使他的職權要去了解說對人民資料的收集利用需不需要立法所以這是國會的職權所以他對TikTok執行長周壽之進行調查周壽之他詢問的內容當然你會說也許會不會涉及到他的營業秘密的問題"},{"start":6419.828,"end":6431.761,"text":"如果涉及到隱隱秘秘他可以要求說我們要改成保密的不公開的方式來進行但是他大部分都沒有主張這個他都是用公開進行所以我們在網路上可以看到他整個聽證會的一個過程"},{"start":6434.244,"end":6461.831,"text":"那所以私人呢他其實也是要接受如果被傳喚的話他也是要出庭作證那他有沒有拒絕證言權呢其實在美國的這個法律裡面拒絕證言權的空間是很小的除了他美國憲法所保障的說不自證己罪還有各州的那個刑事訴訟法也許有一些不自證己罪的規定他也許可以參考但是呢美國的聯邦法有一個很明確的規定說"},{"start":6462.791,"end":6479.427,"text":"任何人不能因為擔心謀休或聲名狼藉用這樣的理由就拒絕證言也就是說好像怕我講出了我見不得人的事我就要拒絕證言當然你要符合也許你可以說我去符合刑事訴訟法裡面真正會有自證己罪的問題或其他問題來拒絕證言"},{"start":6481.237,"end":6481.497,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6502.573,"end":6526.318,"text":"議事規則那各位都可以參考那目前我看各家版本提出來的關於其實都有提到說在聽證例外的時候可以不公開不過其實我們目前寫的方式呢我覺得其實反而是傅昆奇版本的是最好為什麼因為其他人的版本呢都寫說涉及外交國防或其他依法令依秘密事項"},{"start":6528.285,"end":6555.703,"text":"都只有這樣的理由這個是原來的立法院職權刑事法的條文但是呢因為其他依法令依秘密之事項那如果說個人覺得說他現在講出來的話可能會有指控他人犯罪的問題這個其實不是其他依法令依秘密之事項所以這個傅坤祺版本他在後面呢又加了一些理由說如果你真的講出來會對個人隱私或企業秘密有受到"},{"start":6559.645,"end":6580.674,"text":"請求聽證會去討論說要不要不公開所以我覺得這個版本反而是更好的他就可以解決了說如果擔心私人或私人企業的秘密被公開不過呢復工期版本他還是有一個問題可以再精進因為呢我們既然強調如果是參考美國的他的國會調查權用聽證都是用公開的"},{"start":6583.336,"end":6605.678,"text":"福昆吉版本的草案裡面也有一部分是用調查委員會好像是指不公開的方式那這個也許他們在內部再去稍微修正一下到底什麼時候用公開聽證什麼時候用不公開尤其他的草案裡面說用那個調查委員會就是指不公開的時候他是用宣誓那因為我們在台灣最好是用"},{"start":6606.939,"end":6633.737,"text":"拒絕那接下來就是說我不管是除非我這張是有請求請求委員會用不公開那如果我公開了我可不可以拒絕政言的問題呢那目前各家版本寫的其實都已經顧慮到這個問題的它全部都是寫說包括這個民眾黨版本翁小林委員的版本全部都寫說准用刑事訴訟法有關拒絕政言的規定那所以"},{"start":6634.565,"end":6634.765,"text":"福坤集辦"},{"start":6649.565,"end":6650.226,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6670.985,"end":6691.935,"text":"不好因為這個條文是說你在一般的司法的個案的案件他不涉及公共利益國家的這些大事務的調查上他說公務員可以說他是為了保密然後他沒有問過長官他就拒絕證言當然他有說這個長官除非有什麼妨礙國家利益的話否則應該還是要讓他的下級的官員可以講"},{"start":6693.095,"end":6710.776,"text":"但這就有一個模糊空間但是美國是沒有這種空間的因為今天美國國會決定要調查的話你下級官員你不能說我長官沒有同意我講我廣官說這個是國家的利益我就不講所以我覺得各家版本雖然都說我准用刑事訴訟法的拒絕證言"},{"start":6712.755,"end":6735.302,"text":"全的相關會定有好幾條大概有四條但是我覺得要排除這一條或做適當的修正再來呢復婚期版本的除了這個說准用刑事數碼它後面又多了一個說涉及個人隱私或其他法律受保護的秘密事項也可以拒絕證言我覺得這個第四個呢是不太妥當的因為我剛剛講到說"},{"start":6737.023,"end":6764.237,"text":"其實你如果真的涉及私人的隱私或企業的營業秘密你應該是跟這個聽證會要求說我們用保密的方式來進行調查那如果你說只要涉及我私人隱私或企業秘密我都可以拒絕證言那等於就不用調查了所以事實上美國沒有有這個理由的所以呢應該是用剛剛講的是用不公開調查的方式當然不公開調查後續的調查報告也要適度的去保密然後最後呢"},{"start":6767.058,"end":6786.996,"text":"剛剛各位最後都討論到藐視國會罪的問題然後有人說大法官釋字585號只有提到說可以罰還沒有說可以用刑法的藐視國會罪其實它有一個關鍵點因為大法官當時解釋的是立法權的範圍"},{"start":6788.317,"end":6807.536,"text":"立法權的範圍 調查權不配合調查我可以罰款所以大法官說你立法權的範圍有可以罰款但是大法官沒有說那你們藐視國會藐視法院我司法權那邊可不可以去訂一個處罰的規定所以大法官沒有說不可以訂但是當然"},{"start":6808.357,"end":6831.835,"text":"大法官已經有說了如果你有不配合國會調查你可以直接用罰還但是如果你要我們如果現在要用這個司法另外去定藐視國會罪其實沒有不可以不過目前我看到傅坤祺委員的版本呢其實他定的是比較少的他大部分時候說你不配合調查這邊左邊講的你不提出資訊你不出席聽證"},{"start":6832.796,"end":6853.072,"text":"你拒絕政演了,其實他在他的刑法的草案都沒有處罰他直接是用這個罰緩,包括其實民眾黨版本或者翁小林版本都是直接用立法院的罰緩就解決了那傅公祺他的版本在刑法裡面說藐視國會罪,他只有說你出席聽證而且你還說謊"},{"start":6854.77,"end":6855.09,"text":"林郡宏林律師"},{"start":6888.625,"end":6915.862,"text":"主席、在場各位先進大家好今天很榮幸可以來參與今天的公聽會那我想剛剛前面很多先進大概都有提到4至585號我想4至585號是大法官在過去來針對國會調查權講的最清楚的一號解釋那當然剛剛也有不同意見大家對於大法官的解釋的效力有一些不一樣的看法"},{"start":6916.522,"end":6937.816,"text":"那可是不管怎麼樣從我們的現在現在我們的憲法的78條的規定來看的話大法官就是有統一解釋解釋憲法的權利而且相關的他的解釋其實跟憲法是有同等的效力的所以也就是說在大法官4585號解釋出來之後我們相關的解釋跟"},{"start":6938.957,"end":6963.354,"text":"立法的部分都不應該超越或者是有違反4585號的一個狀況我想這個部分應該是清楚的所以我們可以觀察到是說我們看到相關文書各個立法委員所提出來的版本裡面確實有多數有看到的都有遵守大法官4585號解釋的一些看法當然也有違反的部分"},{"start":6964.995,"end":6990.16,"text":"如果從4585號解釋的觀察來看的話其實大法官肯認了一件事情對 國會有調查權我想這個部分沒有人會反對這件事情國會確實是有調查權那大法官做了一個定性他的定性是什麼他只是一個輔助性的權力他的核心是在於立法院他要行使他憲法職權的時候他才有國會調查權這個部分是很重要為什麼這個部分很重要是因為"},{"start":6991.36,"end":6999.55,"text":"大法官講得很清楚我們只能針對立法院憲法職權的範圍內可以進行相關的調查跟調閱"},{"start":7002.011,"end":7021.074,"text":"我們是五權憲法大法官也做了在這個脈絡底下他做了一些排除適用的部分那所謂的排除適用他講了說其他的獨立機關他的憲法職權立法院是不可以侵犯的那有一些固有的行政特權的部分應該也不應該去問的不應該調查的好"},{"start":7021.594,"end":7022.954,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":7043.311,"end":7063.555,"text":"我們的糾正彈劾糾舉的權利放在監察院也就是說關於個案性的行政不法的這樣子的狀態其實在我們的憲法規定裡面已經明顯地劃給了監察院也就是說這個部分不應該是立法院行使職權的範圍"},{"start":7066.26,"end":7092.81,"text":"那如果 也就是說如果要針對個案性的調查的時候我想會明顯的違反了我們的4至585號解釋的意旨那這個部分也可以再延續說明說在4至729號的部分也做了更進一步 也明確的在說明了我們的行政 呃 刑事偵查的部分他也明確的表示說這個是憲法獨立的一個行使的一個地位也就是說"},{"start":7093.97,"end":7120.391,"text":"針對刑事個案 審判的個案 刑事偵查的個案在國會的調查的狀況下不應該去妨礙這一些權力的行使所以在這個脈絡底下其實我們都可以看得很清楚大法官在過去的解釋裡面把我們的憲法有做了一個明確的說明把國會調查權的範圍明確的行使或者是限制在關於國會的職權的行使那"},{"start":7121.533,"end":7148.743,"text":"那在這個文字上的觀察的話我們可以看一下釋字的729號他有一段文字喔他說立法院要求提供參考資料及文件調閱是輔助立法院行使立法憲法職權之權利故必須基於議決法律案預算案人事同意案等憲法上職權等特定議案有重大關聯者所以在這個脈絡裡面其實都講得非常的清楚所以"},{"start":7149.463,"end":7175.764,"text":"大家一直在看美國的部分他們有涉及到有一些部分的個案的部分可是在我們的制度裡面其實是有問題的不過我同意剛剛前面有位先進特別提到的部分總統的彈劾權他確實是立法院的在這個範圍內應該是要回到國會所以這個部分的相關規範應該是要把它立得清楚一點的"},{"start":7177.011,"end":7206.196,"text":"好那下一個問題是那既然我們在進行國會調查權的我們同意國會調查權這個狀況下我們是不是應該要給予一定的程序我想在立法委員的版本裡面大概都有做了一些相關的說明跟歷史那這個部分的話其實大法官585號解釋也講得很清楚那他當然最基本的你要有充分的時間甚至你要讓他可以有專業的律師諮詢或者是律師代理"},{"start":7207.297,"end":7218.677,"text":"這個部分其實我們似乎在我自己在觀察的時候好像沒有寫得那麼的明確或者是完整當然我們的結論機制其實有一些些的設計可是我看起來有一點簡陋"},{"start":7221.243,"end":7248.218,"text":"比較核心的是剛剛前面先進不斷在提到的就是哪一些部分是可以拒絕證言的哪一些部分是可以拒絕證言的那當然大家不斷的在提一件事情就是我們都不斷的去拿司法權的拒絕證言權來做比擬我覺得是相當合理的一個狀態啦因為確實在司法權的狀況下我們都可以拒絕證言的我講的是證人的部分我先講證人的部分證人你可以拒絕證言"},{"start":7249.238,"end":7249.258,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7264.386,"end":7290.123,"text":"如果你把它當成調查個案本身當然我前面先提到一個前提不可以調查個案可是我相信將來在做操作的時候也許會發生這樣的狀況被告本身有不自認己罪的一個要求那不自認己罪的要求的狀況下其實你更不可能去要求他在國會上你一定要說特定的話或者是說你就要完整的配合在被告個人的部分我想私人的部分"},{"start":7290.763,"end":7319.844,"text":"為什麼要特別談這件事情呢如果我們回到看一下我們的公正公約公正公約在審判的時候它有強迫它是禁止強制取證的我們回歸到我們剛剛提到的其實我們在設計的在制度設計上我們會希望說來的人要據實以告來的人不可以說謊所以相對來說我們就會有設定相關的強制的制裁的手段強制制裁手段它其實它雖然沒有直接強制說你一定要講什麼話可是它實質上的效果是什麼"},{"start":7321.113,"end":7323.571,"text":"實質上的效果就是逼你講話逼你要"},{"start":7325.472,"end":7351.6,"text":"你要講出人家想要你講的話那可是這個如果涉及到個案的性質或者是涉及到他可能自己他涉及到相關的犯罪的時候他必然會違反的不自正己罪原則的最基本最基本的要求我想這個是公正公約所沒有辦法違反的無論你在法庭裡面都沒有辦法違反更何況你在國會這邊還如何是可以違反的那第二個問題是拒絕證言權誰要來判斷說你可不可以拒絕證言"},{"start":7355.185,"end":7373.742,"text":"那我要怎麼樣去做判斷我要主張我要拒絕證言的人我要怎麼樣去說明在司法的範圍裡面當事人只要市民就好了就講說有大概的狀況那理論上應該就可以了那我們的草案裡面對於這件事情誰來決定誰來判斷判斷標準是什麼"},{"start":7376.567,"end":7405.142,"text":"我自己是沒有可能我看得很快可是我自己沒有沒有完整的去看到這件事情所以這個部分到底要怎麼樣去規範我覺得要講得再更清楚一點那除此之外呢剛剛有提到一個藐視國會的部分我還是要回到4-5854-585講的是他只有在罰緩的範圍內可以也就是他講得很清楚在這件事情上"},{"start":7405.982,"end":7434.668,"text":"你如果不配合調查拒絕調查4至585講得非常的清楚也就只有罰緩沒有辦法跳脫到進到所謂的刑罰層次這個部分當然有不同的意見許中麗大法官這4至5應該是585號解釋的不同意見他甚至提到說連罰緩都不可以為什麼他覺得罰緩都不可以因為從憲法的解釋上他是一個邀請的性質你對於一般人對於人民來說你是被邀請來協力的"},{"start":7437.295,"end":7455.394,"text":"他既然是邀請的話他認為沒有強制力當然這個有不同的看法當然四字五八五號解釋他做了一個定性他認為說是可以的是可以的他雖然是一個邀請性質可是他還是可以進行某個程度的強制的要求因為國會要行使他的職權必須要得到充分跟完整的資訊我覺得這個都是合理的"},{"start":7455.874,"end":7468.684,"text":"那當然在大法官這邊做了一個退縮之後退讓之後他要求的只能到法環可是他並沒有容許可以上綱往上限把他提升到刑法的層次刑法的層次"},{"start":7470.265,"end":7470.646,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7486.007,"end":7513.084,"text":"我想明確性原則是刑法最基本的要求最刑法定跟明確性原則你必須要讓這個可能被處罰的對象能夠明確的預知到說他在做什麼樣的事情他可能被罰他可能得到刑法的處罰可是我們在這次的條文裡面我們看到了許多的是充滿了不確定的法律概念所以我覺得我們的藐視國會不僅違反了我們的4585號解釋的看法而且也違反了我們的明確性原則我的發言到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":7516.117,"end":7527.955,"text":"好 謝謝林律師這邊做個預告在黃帝穎律師發言之後我們休息5分鐘再繼續好 接下來繼續邀請黃帝穎律師"},{"start":7542.612,"end":7568.646,"text":"主席各位與會先進今天公聽會在談國會調查跟聽證權監督行政那國會調查權我想在大法官的解釋裡面都肯認這個部分沒有問題但是今天的這個命題如何避免侵犯人民自由這是非常重要的一個課題這個跟德國的公法名家耶林奈克在談基本權功能體系非常重要的一個防禦權的概念就是說我們現在"},{"start":7570.307,"end":7598.882,"text":"國會要提出法案增加了可能是刑法或者是行政法的這樣的一個相關的國家的對人民權利的一個限制那這樣子在防禦上面的思考對人民而言它就是非常重大的那權利分立的要求其實我們在為什麼要談權利分立最基本的想法就是說要把國家的權利有效的區分開來在三權分立國家或者是我們現在五權分立的想法都是一樣的"},{"start":7599.522,"end":7627.795,"text":"不讓國家的權力過大不讓國家權力集中才能讓人民的基本權利基本人權獲得保障這個是近代以來所有民主國家基本的一個思考所以我們現在在談的是說國會的聽證國會的調查權它怎麼樣的一個行使可以有效避免對人民的基本權基本自由的這個侵犯那現階段而言其實在各版本裡面對於所謂的藐視國會"},{"start":7628.916,"end":7629.036,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7645.731,"end":7673.194,"text":"因為你對於官員的責任的追究在現階段的權利分立上面五權憲法把監察權他佔有對於官員的責任追究對行政不法的糾正這一個部分他因為憲法把它劃出去了把監察權的廢除回到國會本身他才能健全國會現階段的一個制度那在325號解釋他特別提到325號解釋是因為修憲之後他認為說憲法的五權體制沒有改變我講的是他的"},{"start":7674.375,"end":7677.578,"text":"原屬於監察院職權中的彈劾、糾舉、糾正等實權依照憲法95條、96條的調查權憲法徵修條我們都沒有修改因此這個調查權還是專由"},{"start":7689.97,"end":7714.965,"text":"監察院行使換句話說監察院把他綁住了就是說你對於官員的究責對於行政不法的糾正這部分在憲法的權限劃分上面把他劃給了監察院這個會影響到目前國會要強化行政監督的能力現在很多修憲應該說修法的版本會踩到監察院的界線這個踩到監察院的界線就會被認定違反權利分立"},{"start":7716.665,"end":7732.691,"text":"325號的解釋理由書他還特別提到憲法設立五院分掌行政立法司法考試監察五權均為國家最高機關彼此職權經由憲法的劃分與國外的三權分立制度不全然相同"},{"start":7733.251,"end":7746.96,"text":"所以憲法徵修條文沒有對武權體制有所改變沒有增加立法院的職權監察院對於中央跟地方公務人員有失職或違法的情形可以提出糾舉彈劾跟相關糾正這個調查權即會修改"},{"start":7751.423,"end":7778.933,"text":"能應由監察院 專由監察院行使這個是大法官在三五號解釋裡面所做的這個定調而這樣的定調在現在的五權憲法裡面還沒有改變所以我認為如果要強化國會的調查權而不要讓對官員的究責產生抵觸到憲法上面監察權的行使應該廢掉監察院讓國會的權限回歸對官員的行使那另外一個是對人民的究責"},{"start":7779.813,"end":7803.11,"text":"人民的救責應該這樣講是說你藐視國會你要去追究人民的責任這一段對官員的部分他是放在監察院的權利所以現階段的不論是很多委員的版本對於官員責任的追究他本身會踩過監察權而有違憲的疑慮在沒有修憲廢掉監察權之前他會有違憲的問題另外一個是什麼對人民的責任的追究"},{"start":7804.33,"end":7829.004,"text":"藐視國會對人民責任的追究在585號解釋剛剛很多先進都提到585號解釋裡面他只有給予罰還的授權並沒有刑事處罰那罰還是什麼意思當然後續如果人民被處罰了他可以再提出訴願或者是行政訴訟那585號解釋其實也講得很清楚他說立法院的調查權是立法院行使憲法職權的必要性的輔助性權利"},{"start":7829.884,"end":7837.249,"text":"根基於權力分立與制衡的原則調查權所要調查的對象跟事項不是毫無限制的國家獨立機關"},{"start":7839.232,"end":7860.58,"text":"的行使職權受憲法保障的：他就不是可以立法院職權調查的範圍：舉例來說：大法官在這邊的解釋文也講很清楚：行政首長一期行政部有權能進行運作：不能做：他有權決定不予公開：這樣的行政特權是立法院調查權的界限：而剛剛有先進特別提到說這是以"},{"start":7861.981,"end":7862.901,"text":"立法院調查權行使的方式"},{"start":7891.36,"end":7893.502,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":7911.014,"end":7931.402,"text":"監察院專屬專由監察院調查官員．調查中央地方官員．跟行政部法的糾正．跟官員的彈劾．這部分的責任追究．它是專屬於監察院的．國會如果要回歸．強化它的監督行政的功能．廢掉監察院是一個考慮．可以值得考慮的方向 這個人的主張"},{"start":7932.242,"end":7952.967,"text":"最後我要談的是說﹐很多在引用說國會聽證權﹐他是不是在國會聽證上面﹐有藐視國會拒絕政言﹐或者是為政要刑事處罰的這樣的規定﹐很多人去引用這個美國的法律美國的這個例子﹐剛剛黃國昌委員特別提到這個川普的顧問﹐"},{"start":7953.507,"end":7953.947,"text":"美國大陪審團"},{"start":7973.078,"end":7986.508,"text":"大陪審團是由人民去抽象出來因為什麼?民主國家講究權力的制衡不是我國會今天決定說你這個人就是偽證我就直接要法院去判你沒有這樣的一個機制美國的制度是說我今天國會認為你講的不實"},{"start":7988.149,"end":8015.351,"text":"或者你拒絕證言你藐視國會我要送給有人民組成的大陪審團大陪審團人民組成認為審理完之後發現這個確實到達起訴的門檻後面才去起訴這是權力制衡最基本的要求正當法律程序是美國憲法要求所以不是只有斷章取義說美國你看他的人民要作證他的藐視國會藐視國會完之後馬上就去判刑不是這樣不要跳脫出正當法律程序的要求美國的要求是"},{"start":8016.152,"end":8039.68,"text":"其實之前有一個例子也有一個私人這個大聯盟的知名投手克萊門斯他這個是賽揚獎七次獲得他被用當時一個禁藥的案一個新聞他去國會作證聽證上面他否認他用禁藥後來被比對出來認為有問題這個案子怎麼處理他還是送到大陪審團由人民組成的大陪審團國會認為說你這個講的不實啊你說謊"},{"start":8042.501,"end":8060.657,"text":"不是我認為說謊就說謊你就是完全錯還要由人民組成的大陪審團來進行正當法律程序上面的要求來判斷到底是非對錯所以如果要引用美國的例子不要只講一部分要就整套正當法律程序都進來你要去追究人民有形式上的責任或者是到國會聽證上面有藐視國會的責任"},{"start":8062.859,"end":8082.77,"text":"就要把這樣的一個整套的正當法律程序進來權力的製衡是非常重要的國會他其實強化對行政的監督國會有調查權都肯定沒有問題但是他要如何有效避免對人民的自由權的侵犯這個是非常重要的正當法律程序才能有效避免"},{"start":8084.471,"end":8109.209,"text":"國會擴權之後對人民產生權力的侵犯同時對官員而言我認為追根究柢最後五權分立的問題還是對官員如果強化國會對行政的監督對官員責任的追究必須要廢除調查院如果廢掉調查院那國會的權力回歸可以對官員究責這部分這樣的一個這次提出了很多版本才不會有違憲的疑慮那以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":8112.257,"end":8114.027,"text":"好 謝謝黃律師 我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":8576.613,"end":8577.954,"text":"主席 各位老師 各位大律師 還有我們政府的代表"},{"start":8603.94,"end":8623.904,"text":"我已經離開立法院大概20年,我93年退休然後去私立賢尚大學當教授10年,被藉領退休所以我今天跟各位分享我的見解是因為我在立法院有9年的實務經驗當然我有曾經被"},{"start":8627.938,"end":8647.036,"text":"美國亞洲基金會邀請到美國去訪問國會大概有兩個禮拜我也在立法院時期我也考上那個人事行政局那個專題研究也到英國去辦人大概我兩個國會我都去過今天我們的問題啊"},{"start":8648.677,"end":8667.831,"text":"問題在出在哪裡呢?剛剛黃國昌委員說這個20年來好像都沒有進步,這個國會改革那是沒有錯,我們談了已經20年,20年前我在立法院的時候我們也是一直在努力來促進根據我們的手寫、我們的見聞等等來努力促成,但是沒有辦法"},{"start":8668.351,"end":8682.524,"text":"最主要的我的前件是我們憲政的框架把它卡住了我們的組織是五院制我們的選舉是總統制我們立委跟國會立委跟總統一起選出來這個運作"},{"start":8685.807,"end":8711.396,"text":"國會的運作又採用內閣制我們是三個字並存所以你要利用哪一個字的理論來看台灣的制度啊通通都可以講說要改革但是我們的框架已經被框到以後動彈不得已經要動的話困難度非常高就是今天那我要跟你分享說今天的主題是調查權那麼調查權我們行政法裡面調查權講的是一種一種"},{"start":8713.257,"end":8728.076,"text":"通稱 檢查 訪查 查詢 查查檢驗 還有回答問題提供文件 這個總稱的活動就是要調查權有行政檢查 行政調查都一樣的概念 那我們立法院當然是"},{"start":8729.056,"end":8729.076,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8752.947,"end":8754.609,"text":"國會調查權是立法資訊的收集權現在立法院使用的資訊收集權已經有報告與執行"},{"start":8770.646,"end":8791.989,"text":"主行公聽會．文件調閱．請願案件的審查．法規命令的查照或審查．實地考察．大概有這些對應我們經常的．我在活動中都沒問題的那我們上午切法．就有待補充．就做下幾項就正式的聽證 第二個"},{"start":8792.89,"end":8809.403,"text":"透視事件的真相調查還有第三種就是政府總統彈劾案的調查剛剛那個林教授有說他看到我這個私密資料有講到這一點對很多人沒有記得也沒有提到這一點我們也沒有建立第四個法則沒有建立"},{"start":8810.49,"end":8810.75,"text":"正式聽證"},{"start":8832.672,"end":8849.078,"text":"法制上使用的公聽會像我們今天就是公聽會那麼這個呢聽證是一個准書法程序它要給那個收集到不利的政績的時候還要加上這個程序就是要給這個不利的相對人有質疑政績或申辯的權利的機會"},{"start":8850.858,"end":8876.222,"text":"剛才有幾位教授也講到是一個準司法性這個沒有錯那麼第二種就是第二類我們要補充的就是透視事件的真相調查這個我把它歸納大概有兩大點第一點就是針對天災、事變或重大突發事件的真相調查像我們319槍擊案就是這一類不過當時候319槍擊案立法院是用真相調查委員會他抽一個特別法來做當然這個會議被這個委線在585號解釋的出現那麼這個"},{"start":8880.223,"end":8890.32,"text":"這個就是在這個我們要補強這一塊是不是要寫進我們自己立法委員去調查還是要委託外面的專列"},{"start":8891.567,"end":8891.907,"text":"委員會委託外界特別法"},{"start":8911.664,"end":8924.759,"text":"第二類就是我自己把它歸納看外國的法制就是針對立法委員重大違反紀律的整潔案件我沒有紀律委會但是這個效果非常差"},{"start":8926.247,"end":8940.863,"text":"這非常少見有那個基地整治案子出現那麼其實那個我講的就是any在any的話當然是我們的委員自行認定但是在any發生重大危機案件的話那可能要就是要進入這個真相調查的程序"},{"start":8941.804,"end":8968.951,"text":"第三個就是我剛剛提到的政府總統彈劾案的調查這個是事實調查一定要必要在美國的時候啦因為我85年啦我在新聞局副部門要派去駐外出美國剛好當時美國在眾議院在對那個那個柯林頓總統提出要提出彈劾案他們就是委外面的獨立檢察官他們有特別把獨立檢察官來作為事實調查然後交給國會後來眾議院有通過調彈劾案但"},{"start":8971.505,"end":8998.64,"text":"是在參議院的審議的時候沒有過關那就是當時候魯汶書記案這個是我們現在目前要補強第四個是華澤那麼今天的很多我看我的桌上有那個草案我今天翻一下也有幾位委員有提到要刑法行政刑法剛剛黃國昌委員也指當要刑法但是我們吳文進也說到刑法這個程度還有點欠缺吳文進也還保留了為什麼"},{"start":8999.48,"end":9021.685,"text":"因為這個只是對我們這個規避妨礙季節調查這個部分我認為只是對我們的協助國會調查的義務的不服從或不履行這個是一個行政不法海南政府是行事不法行事不法要到達有違反倫理道德的這個灰燃性"},{"start":9022.265,"end":9047.523,"text":"那個時候很高 而且危險程度很高的時候才有到刑法我們第一次草創都要弄到刑法那個爭議會很大 而且有違憲之疑因為大法官585號已經講到是一個划環其實划環可以用比較重的划環也可以達到目的那麼我剛剛講到我們的聽證跟公聽會現在很多因為英國88年通過行政程序法的時候我個人剛好被派美國駐外"},{"start":9048.666,"end":9048.686,"text":"公聽會"},{"start":9076.568,"end":9102.22,"text":"行政權 行政院的各部會在應用這個聽證的時候雖然聽證有規定 但是很少來發動我有參加當過聽證主持人就是那個航空層航空層土地證說有找我去當聽證主持人我有參與過一屆那是因為也辦得不是很好因為他的航空層的聽證他們土地所有權有兩萬多年"},{"start":9104.541,"end":9130.994,"text":"兩萬多人這個聽證它困難度很高因為沒有對照只有一個對照那是比較簡單嘛那是一個非常不正常的一個聽證案件那麼聽證它主要是一個要舉行辯論的要交叉結論那有書法程序嘛記錄做成決定它具有裁決性它是一個准書法的程序它目的是在為了不利益受不利益處分者的程序保護剛剛我講到行政程序法"},{"start":9131.994,"end":9149.773,"text":"法規聽證為什麼要聽證法規聽法規根本沒有對照啊法規是一個政策問題啊沒有對照所以根本就不要所以他們也不知道怎麼辦這時候這個法規聽證怎麼辦呢那要不利於處分的時候出現這種懷疑的我們一定要聽證第二個公聽會就是廣泛聽取意見齁"},{"start":9150.934,"end":9150.974,"text":"租賃協會租賃協會"},{"start":9172.91,"end":9197.732,"text":"一定要注意不能造成矛盾一定要互相協調因為我們立法者自己制定的法案不能說不遵守這個自我約束那麼我建議以公正公開口頭調查委員還有調查委員跟聽證主持人要分離這個是美國的聽證他們是一定要分離所以他們那個行政聽證是由行政總處的派"},{"start":9200.222,"end":9201.083,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":9218.856,"end":9245.234,"text":"檢查法 或者是在我們執檢立法案 執檢刑事法 要增訂檢查案接受立法委員 函請調查及事後答覆的條文為什麼你們知道嗎 剛剛黃帝銀委律師也講到說啊 這個會主檢查案 對不對在還沒有會址以前 憲法沒有修正以前 我們就過渡期我們怎麼運作呢我這邊有修正檢查法 後走我們這一次的修法 立法案 執檢刑事法裡面把它寫了一條因為這兩個調查不太一樣"},{"start":9249.397,"end":9274.774,"text":"我們立法委員他受到人民的懲案他裡面連任委員都受阻違法失職公務員這個時候的案子他自己要發動調查非常不好所以應該要尊重監察案 函警監察案調查那麼監察院他接受這個立法委員的函件以後他一定要趕快去派人調查調查以後再回報給立法委員這個是從英國的制度來的"},{"start":9275.194,"end":9275.854,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":9291.084,"end":9292.045,"text":"謝謝我們羅前局長 接下來有請廖益明廖教授發言"},{"start":9327.542,"end":9352.1,"text":"主席以及在座各位先進大家早安我個人非常榮幸也非常高興有機會能夠在這個公聽會上面就這個如何落實國會調查權以及監督行政並且能夠保障人權這方面發表我的意見那我之所以感到特別高興是因為我們立法院在設計這個國會調查權的時候"},{"start":9354.501,"end":9374.272,"text":"現在竟然這麼地重視人民的權利人民的自由權跟人民的隱私權的保障這個在過去可不見得是這樣子在過去呢立法院只要有非常特定的政治上的目的只要立法院在立法院多數有非常強大的政治上的理由以及非常的"},{"start":9375.232,"end":9397.045,"text":"明確的政治上的打擊目標的時候對於調查權究竟會不會侵犯到人民的隱私或自由可是完全不顧的在2017年的時候那時候在制定促進轉型條例的時候那個時候的我們來看看那個時候的促進轉型條例裡面有沒有規定第16條認為規定說"},{"start":9400.487,"end":9409.994,"text":"一規定需接受調查的機關、團體或人員﹐不得規避、拒絕或妨礙調查違反者處10到50萬當然這個人員可不只僅限於國民黨黨員是所有人都叫人員"},{"start":9419.901,"end":9445.129,"text":"當然在那個時候的規定裡面也有規定說促轉條例第12條第二款規定促轉會委員應超出黨派之外應獨立行政職權於任期之間不得參與政黨活動那時候是這樣規定的但是那個時候對於促轉會的委員們如果在行使調查權的時候有侵犯到人民的權利自由隱私可是毫無任何其他規定"},{"start":9446.289,"end":9451.576,"text":"但是行政法還罰得挺重的可以罰到10萬到50萬這是第16條的最後一項規定"},{"start":9456.171,"end":9483.733,"text":"這個事情我們來看看說在調查權在法院檢調 司法檢調以外的調查權如果沒有做好這個比較精良的設計的話會產生什麼樣的現象呢當然促轉會也有這樣的一個新聞2018年的時候 台灣《靖州刊》就發布一個錄音那個時候的促轉會副主委張天青在內部會議的時候提到"},{"start":9484.794,"end":9509.566,"text":"提到要對某政治人物要予以操作然後認定促轉會是東場是南場後來這個錄音並不是因為促轉會的相關規範使得這樣的錄音被爆料出來或是這個人被懲處而是因為內部有人檢舉後來這位副主委因為"},{"start":9511.687,"end":9521.139,"text":"自己辭去了副主委的一職然後後來被監察院彈劾那當然在促轉會那個時候就像我剛剛所講的"},{"start":9522.58,"end":9545.785,"text":"立法院裡面的執政黨、多數黨的政治上的利益是非常明確的政治上要打擊的目標也是非常明確的尤其是所涉及的調查人員如果真的侵犯了民眾的隱私或自由的話這些人員本身也都不是立法委員所以透過監察院來彈劾他應該也是個小事"},{"start":9546.949,"end":9572.087,"text":"今天變成是國會的話我認為這個就是一個大事首先國會調查權如果真正由立法院來行使的話如果在相關的配套的制度跟體制上沒有做好明確跟精準的規範的話未來發生無論哪一個政黨擔任執政黨無論哪一個立法委員或是哪個政團要透過調查權的行使來打擊"},{"start":9573.348,"end":9573.368,"text":"國會調查權"},{"start":9593.608,"end":9611.439,"text":"在我個人的政治學的經驗跟學術研究裡面我有一個簡單的理解那就是權力的行使的基礎在於自律一個沒有自律的團隊或一個沒有自律的組織或沒有自律的人員如果真要行使"},{"start":9612.099,"end":9638.706,"text":"他的權力的話因為自己的不夠自律將會造成當事人就是對方的不信任對方不信任的情況之下這個時候對方在高度不信任的情況之下對於所行使權力的人他所行使的各種權力就會表現出各種有形或無形有利或無利的這種不配合所以權力的行使是以自律為基礎根據權力的行使以自律為基礎我個人認為"},{"start":9641.446,"end":9642.167,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9658.576,"end":9672.166,"text":"立法委員或助理在調查前後 如果把調查所得到的各種隱私外漏的話這樣的罪責應該要比藐視國會罪更重假設未來在立法裡面有藐視國會罪的話"},{"start":9674.548,"end":9684.913,"text":"立法委員或是助理把相關的調查資料與洩漏將讓人民被調查者的隱私或個人權利被侵犯的話這樣的罪應該要比藐視國會罪要更重"},{"start":9689.937,"end":9706.331,"text":"立法委員在調查的時候．對被調查人的人身自由或名譽．若有污辱的時候．應該視為公然侮辱罪．以公然侮辱罪來稱辱．這個時候我認為配套的規定．就沒有立法院所謂言論自由的保障"},{"start":9708.612,"end":9720.286,"text":"立法委員在行使調查權的時候：如果未能有助於立法院執權的行使的話：這個時候：比方說有立法委員：如果立法委員或立法委員的助理亂提意見："},{"start":9727.093,"end":9743.657,"text":"這個時候應該也是藐視國會把國會調查權這個權利胡亂行使沒有針對某特定的政策目標或某特定的因調查事項來胡亂行使的話他應該也是屬於藐視國會罪的一環所以在藐視國會罪的設計裡面應該把這個列進去"},{"start":9748.84,"end":9776.991,"text":"第四點是 民眾在被調查的時候 如果認為去進行調查的立法委員有偏頗之餘的時候應該比照民事訴訟法跟刑事訴訟法一樣要能夠申請該位立法委員的迴避也就是民事訴訟法跟刑事訴訟法相關的這個當事人得申請法官迴避的這樣的法理跟規範應該列入未來的國會調查權的運作的機制當中這樣才能夠使得所謂的國會調查權裡面"},{"start":9779.352,"end":9779.552,"text":"陳義明 陳律師"},{"start":9815.144,"end":9840.177,"text":"主席在場各位先進還有與會機關的代表我想我第一點我講其實上禮拜三我也有參加這次的公聽會那我想為什麼大家這次對於立法院要增訂調查權或者是說強化調查權或者是說要增訂聽證的部分有這麼強烈的關注我想第一個大家都希望立法院"},{"start":9840.877,"end":9841.558,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":9858.596,"end":9884.151,"text":"立法委員要徵定這些相關的權限有這麼多的疑慮我想有一個很核心的部分那也是我們不得不面對的就是其實大家都很擔心立法委員的擴權造成不管是官員或者是人民特別是人民在立法院被調查的時候立法院成為一種像私設刑堂的這種情形發生"},{"start":9885.532,"end":9912.749,"text":"那剛剛有先進提到說我們對於立法院的權力的這個完善或者是我們講擴張也好好像覺得很恐懼那我覺得這件事情我們要有一個觀念是我們對權力不管是立法、行政、司法我們人民永遠都戒慎恐懼絕對不是要求立法院要自我閹割我覺得這個是一個前提在我進行後面"},{"start":9913.249,"end":9913.269,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9930.333,"end":9955.723,"text":"我想這個要分成兩個層次來談第一個是在權力分立下面我們要先釐清每一個權力的核心範圍是什麼那第二個是呢如何在就是我們在確保權力分立的情況下面那我們要怎麼去釐清說權力有沒有互相的衝突或說到侵害那這部分要把權力行使的目的要明確化"},{"start":9956.872,"end":9978.865,"text":"那就權力分立的核心範圍其實過去在釋字的325號或者是585號甚至是729號其實都有相關的論述大法官都指出國家機關如果他獨立行使職權是受到憲法的保障的話就應該要保障他而不應該受到其他權力的侵害"},{"start":9981.277,"end":9986.648,"text":"特別是其他憲政機關在權力的行使不能對他造成所謂實質的妨害"},{"start":9988.888,"end":10010.856,"text":"那在行政權的部分 585號有指出行政權它其實是有一個固有的權能包含在國家安全事項 國家機密的事項還有包含在政策形成過程內部討論的這些資訊以及正在進行中犯罪調查的這些資訊這都是所謂的行政的固有職權認為這些是不能夠被侵害的部分"},{"start":10012.056,"end":10029.807,"text":"司法權包含司法機關對於審理案件的法律見解和為了要審理當時所收集的卷證資料也是不應該被調查的對象另外特別要提到的就是檢查權 準司法權"},{"start":10036.345,"end":10057.296,"text":"準次法權在4至3月5日及7月9日 其實大法官都有正面的給予肯定認為這是一個憲法所保障上 憲政機關上應該要有的權利檢察官的偵查 他偵查中所取得的卷證 或者是偵查中的案件這些都不應該成為立法院可以調閱的對象"},{"start":10059.566,"end":10079.093,"text":"偵查這種案件不行以偵結的案件不起訴或者未經起訴牽結的方式這部分必須要基於與特定議案審查目的和範圍都要明確而且必須要和行使憲法上立委的職權要有重大關聯他才能夠作為調閱的對象"},{"start":10083.234,"end":10084.715,"text":"檢查委員．獨立行使職權．彈劾．糾正．權利．不應立委．行使．調查權．侵入考試委員．"},{"start":10104.108,"end":10130.615,"text":"對於人事的成績的評定這部分也包含在裡面所以我覺得我們在談說立法院的調查權到底有沒有侵害到權力分離我們基於大法官前面幾個解釋的意旨第一個我們大概可以知道說其他的現任機關他的權力的範圍到哪裡這是我覺得第一個層次要釐清的第二個層次要釐清的是說"},{"start":10132.915,"end":10150.817,"text":"我們不能夠涉入其他機關的核心事項那我怎麼去界定回過頭來我怎麼去界定立法院自己本身委員在行使的時候他的核心事項是什麼那我們回來看立法委員自選行使法我們立法委員可以行使的自選其實還蠻多的"},{"start":10153.122,"end":10166.418,"text":"我們在行使調查權的時候其實依照4585號他就提到了立法院調查權他是立法院行使及憲法之權所必要的輔助性權利"},{"start":10168.44,"end":10184.547,"text":"這裡有一個重點是他是個輔助性的權力所以你在行使調查權的時候你都必須要強烈的能夠依附在你的立法委員的職權上面那立法委員的職權上面呢我覺得這個部分我們有幾個地方可以舉個具體的幾個情形來檢討"},{"start":10188.393,"end":10206.705,"text":"我們都知道說立法委員他對特定的人事有同意權例如大法官監察委員會有人事的同意權立法委員可以審議預算立法委員他可以有質詢權那為了要行使人事同意權那我們可能可以在"},{"start":10207.796,"end":10219.178,"text":"在行使的過程當中我們說我們要調查某一位被提名人他是否適格的資料這個範圍似乎還可以理解"},{"start":10220.833,"end":10245.538,"text":"但是就質詢權的部分我們想像上如果有特定的委員他認為說對某一個弊案我必須要對院長或某個部長進行質詢那基於我這個質詢的需求我是不是可以做一個決議就是說好我要成立一個調查委員會或調查小組我要對特定的案件去做調查"},{"start":10246.65,"end":10270.411,"text":"我覺得這個是想像中將來很有可能會發生的一個具體的情形而這樣的情形其實某一個程度會涉及到什麼就是對監察權的侵害以及對於准司法權就是檢察權的侵害甚至是有可能是到司法權的侵害那在這樣情況下面在產生權力的競合的下面我們要怎麼樣去避免權力的互相的侵異"},{"start":10272.708,"end":10282.849,"text":"特別是我們講到說立委他去透過調查權去質詢特定的想像中的弊案的時候這個時候依照剛剛提到的四字的"},{"start":10284.892,"end":10304.826,"text":"729號的解釋他有提到說偵查中的案件你不能夠去介入調查那這個時候立法院的職權行使怎麼和檢察機關之間要做一個怎麼樣的互動我覺得這個可能在我們的修法裡面可能要一併的加以考慮那再來是"},{"start":10310.312,"end":10315.696,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會８立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":10334.696,"end":10353.261,"text":"這個原因在於說我唯有目的清楚我才能夠確定說有沒有調查的必要那有調查的必要以後我們在法規裡面應該要去檢討說那哪些東西是可以調查的我們今天有看到說在草案裡面有委員提出來"},{"start":10354.403,"end":10380.925,"text":"就人事的同意的部分他認為他可以調查的範圍其實還包含了個人的財產資料行案的前科紀錄等等那這些是不是在調查的範圍裡面都一併的可以允許那另外呢在調查的範圍裡面如果是可以調查的事項那調查了以後這些資料怎麼樣做保護這個目前在我們的規定裡面其實看到的說明並沒有到這麼的詳細"},{"start":10383.291,"end":10410.326,"text":"那在調查的文件裡面其實我們來參照一下過去的其實就台灣已經既有的包含民事訴訟法跟刑事訴訟法還有社會財產案件審理法其實裡面都有對於涉及這個人民的這個營業秘密或者是因秘密的事項他有做一些保留啦也就是說在調查的時候如果有涉及這些事項民眾他可不可以要求說我拒絕提出那拒絕提出的時候"},{"start":10413.268,"end":10423.798,"text":"立院他可能基於他的這個職業刑事法的規定他認為說你拒絕提出那我對你要像剛才講的要施以科以一個法環的規定那科以一個法環的規定我怎麼樣子去"},{"start":10425.373,"end":10452.864,"text":"有一個救濟的方式我想這個在法律裡面在職權侵犯裡面應該都要加以規定那最後一個來說明一下就是有關於這個藐藐視國會的問題我覺得現在的草案裡面提到藐視國會這四個字其實是相當的抽象對比整個法律的條文的規定不管是"},{"start":10454.342,"end":10466.712,"text":"行政法或是說要出於刑法它裡面的規定類型包含說拒絕提供拒絕出席虛偽的陳述等等但是後面加了一個概括條款叫做藐視國會"},{"start":10470.396,"end":10494.32,"text":"對於這種類型的對人民的規制或對政府官的規制我建議文字上面必須要力求明確你寧願多規定幾種你認為藐視國會的類型把它明確化盡量不要採用所謂的概括條款因為所謂的藐視國會這件事情我如果今天在質詢的時候對委員講話大聲一點"},{"start":10497.461,"end":10520.816,"text":"或者是講話帶有諷刺的語氣這樣子也認為是藐視國會嗎而就要出語罰金或者是出語罰還嗎我認為這樣子是非常的不恰當啦不禮貌跟違法還是有區隔的啦而且不禮貌這件事情是隨著主觀的感受而有不同啦那到底如果說我們使用說"},{"start":10522.769,"end":10523.009,"text":"中嘉賓委員"},{"start":10553.87,"end":10575.455,"text":"謝謝主席我們在場的學者專家剛剛恭臨的各位的高見我想可以總括的來為底下批評國民黨各委員的版本下一個註腳叫做三不亦沒有哪三不第一中文不好第二憲法不好第三記錄不好第四沒有人民做主的素養"},{"start":10576.543,"end":10588.415,"text":"為什麼這麼說呢我們聽到剛剛陳律師跟前面幾位都提到藐視法庭罪這個概念今天沒有人反對建權國會的調查權或擴充為聽證權這是必要的但是為了建權或擴充聽證權或調查權加了個藐視國會罪來加以強制就有問題了什麼是藐視"},{"start":10598.405,"end":10616.624,"text":"中文的藐視 翻版演示的藐視 街邊的小混混 眼神不對 叫揪式打架 算不算藐視藐視是一個非常主觀的 由單方面判斷的一個行為放到法律上 有沒有呢 我們看到很多西方的國家 我們翻成藐視國會罪 有 藐視法庭罪"},{"start":10619.847,"end":10648.057,"text":"但是來到台灣用中文的社會有沒有聽過藐視法庭罪嗎?有嗎?沒有,我們頂多是法院組織法第95條有給予審判人員在法庭上維持秩序的權利某個程度上是法庭的警察權就跟國會的議長在國會的殿堂的問政他有一個警察權將一些滋擾異常問事的人員把他驅逐這樣的行為就這樣而已"},{"start":10648.957,"end":10663.697,"text":"所以 如果你說把藐視這兩個字改成妨礙調查權我們覺得這個好一點或者說根據4至585號的規定說不履行協助調查之義務 這也可以"},{"start":10664.378,"end":10689.189,"text":"但是你不要說藐視嘛藐視就是剛剛陳律師說的一個不確定的抽象的一個概念用來作為聽證權或者調查權的一個強制力的基礎這個中文呢實在有待商榷別忘了在2014年司法院也曾經提出要將我們法院組織法95條把它以藐視法庭的刑責擴充到一年有沒有過"},{"start":10689.949,"end":10706.999,"text":"沒有過阿連司法委員都覺得藐視法庭這麼天大地大的事情他們都覺得不宜把三個月提他一年阿好第二個憲法不好說憲法不好還是比較不好意思是高中的公民社會課程教的不好或是學的不好"},{"start":10707.759,"end":10726.512,"text":"我們看到國民黨的同僚在這段會議期間提出了國會改革的大旗講什麼 講要對於監察院 效能不彰 帶多 欸 他說要批評欸對於我們在立法院請司法院的人員來這裡 欸 他把他當作行政院的官員在質詢欸"},{"start":10728.315,"end":10743.729,"text":"諸多種種忘記了到底是三權分立還是五權分立不管你主張什麼如果你的版本認為國會有調查權有聽證權那你要注意啊你不要去侵犯你誓死要維護的監察權啊"},{"start":10745.47,"end":10771.59,"text":"民進黨向來主張就是把監察權拿掉回歸到三權分立國民黨不能得你的版本一方面堅持五權分立另一方面又要去侵犯監察院的調查權甚至我們目前的藐視國會你可以對於司法院的人來你可以對他藐視國會嗎你認為他藐視國會請問他如果是公務員按照現在的版本要移送刑法回歸到法院判決"},{"start":10773.032,"end":10784.604,"text":"那這是什麼三權分立還是五權分立 完全看不懂第三個 記錄不好 什麼記錄不好國民黨過去在相關的國會職權行使的記錄不良啊"},{"start":10785.799,"end":10813.181,"text":"有沒有看到外交國防委員會的秘密會議當中秘密會議的內容外泄損及到誰的權利在最近的一個案例損及到韓國公民的權益因為在這個外泄的資料當中很清楚的看到韓國的公民他協助東華民國的海軍去發展我們必要的國造潛艇把這樣的技術似乎有違反到韓國的法律移轉給台灣"},{"start":10815.823,"end":10835.221,"text":"這還是去因為我們的調查我們的秘密會議我們介入出來的文件資料外洩之後造成了他方外國公民的權利受損可能大家覺得還是無所謂如果是本國公民的權利受損你覺得如何呢過去的這些紀錄所以剛剛有一位教授他說到呢"},{"start":10836.508,"end":10848.672,"text":"國會要擴權或要主張權力要先自律權力的行使必須先來自於自律你必須對於治理要求要高啊秘密會能不能落實秘密會能不能拒絕簽據保密協定"},{"start":10852.715,"end":10879.948,"text":"國會如果自己不做只依靠言論免責權來保護自己包括什麼翻白眼、鼻歇不雅的動作都認為這是你的表意自由你的言論自由你的對外言論不負責的自由這樣子你的調查對象會尊重你嗎所以最後我們談一個什麼沒有人民做主的素養簡單講就是沒有民主素養今天大家談的國會要行使監督對象是誰行政院向立法院負責我們要監督的是行政院"},{"start":10880.948,"end":10899.845,"text":"我們要調查的是官員你把人民調進來幹嘛呢還要用刑法事後所以忽略了作為一個憲政機構我們立法院對應的是行政院我們對應的是國家不同憲政機關彼此的分權跟制衡"},{"start":10900.726,"end":10920.743,"text":"不是對於我們國家主體的人民去施以調查跟克責當然在其他國家例子人民有配合協助調查的義務這個義務要怎麼去克以強制的責任這個可以討論對於官員在因應著立法委員質詢的時候他的態度那是一個另外一個政治的一個問題"},{"start":10921.991,"end":10939.321,"text":"地方議會做得很好啊地方議會只要議員諮詢行政首長他覺得不滿意請出議場請出議場有要對他施以行政罰款嗎有要對他克以他的刑責嗎他就算說得再讓你議員不滿意議會做的決定就是請議長決定將該官員請出議場就這樣子"},{"start":10943.323,"end":10943.343,"text":"公聽會．"},{"start":10979.066,"end":10985.212,"text":"謝謝鍾佳斌委員接下來我們請我們過去立法院的好同事黃士傑大律師"},{"start":10994.092,"end":11011.577,"text":"主席 各位學者專家還有與會的官員代表以及社會各界媒體先進大家早安我想今天受邀來參加這個公聽會我想上個禮拜我有過來那時候我都提出來這個立法院的調查權"},{"start":11012.617,"end":11036.848,"text":"要解決的問題就是要先解決在權力分立上面的界限到底如何落實在我們的法條裡面並且對於像是正當法律程序以及相關的人民的權力的保障這一些都應該要有很細緻的討論所以甚至我那時候也提出來說最好能夠有一個更細緻的專法來規範"},{"start":11040.129,"end":11060.108,"text":"甚至有可能我們要先進行憲法上的修憲也好或者是說有些釐清我們才能夠順利的來行使那麼我要先呼應一下剛才我們召委所提到的關於現在我們很多在討論相關的題目的時候都把焦點集中在所謂的藐視國會這幾個字上面"},{"start":11065.055,"end":11080.924,"text":"從學歷上跟法律史的角度去觀察當然藐視這個詞在中文裡面有中文固有的語意但是在法律上面它可以說是翻譯了英美法系裡面所謂的contempt這樣的一個概念"},{"start":11082.044,"end":11096.389,"text":"這個概念我們去查閱相關的研究跟歷史文獻我們可以看得出來事實上他最早這個contempt他是從英國法當他從封建社會過渡到"},{"start":11097.269,"end":11116.203,"text":"民主國家亡權的時候 國王法庭 King's Court開始在各地建立一個近代化的司法體系的時候所謂的 King's Court 的權威是用來取代過去宗教或地方封建民主的過程所以這個絕對亡權底下"},{"start":11118.544,"end":11143.257,"text":"國王．代表國王．到各地．來行使司法權的這些公聽會．他當然只有跟王權依附的性質所以他為什麼用contempt．用所謂的藐視．去界定．不服從法院的命令指令他為了進行訴訟．要求你出庭．或甚至法庭的秩序"},{"start":11144.338,"end":11144.478,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":11166.681,"end":11184.866,"text":"在英國的content parliament這樣的過程雖然在17世紀之前這個英國的這個國會他曾經有一部分的司法權的功能所以呢他也就引入了這個content power的概念進到這個國會裡面"},{"start":11187.182,"end":11212.578,"text":"然後在美國獨立之後不管是藐視法庭或是藐視國會content congress他是這樣的移植過來的所以他有這樣的一個歷史的淵源跟他們在理解跟適用這樣子的法律概念這樣一個過程而這一些相關的背景在台灣是沒有的"},{"start":11213.498,"end":11239.574,"text":"也就是說我們從不管是日本統治的時代1895之後這個明治維新帶來的西方法到台灣的社會上來到1945之後這個國民政府接受台灣中華民國政府相關的法律在南京的立法寄授了這個歐陸的法典到了台灣我們從頭到尾都沒有適用過"},{"start":11240.765,"end":11258.244,"text":"苗式法庭或是content power相關的概念在這塊土地上所以如果我們一直用這樣的概念來自於過去歷史對於絕對王權的這樣的一個歷史概念來描述我認為是非常不恰當的"},{"start":11259.125,"end":11281.025,"text":"所以我也要同樣來建議我們在未來在討論這個相關國會調查權聽證相關的立法的時候我們可以避免使用這樣的概念那我再舉一個例子剛才張冠斌教委有提到法院組織法相關的規定並不需要去使用藐視或是contempt的概念就可以處理相關的問題"},{"start":11282.728,"end":11304.932,"text":"我們在刑法裡面過去曾經有最接近這個所謂藐視的概念叫做侮辱公署那麼我們也在上一屆用這樣的罪名跟這樣的行為把它入罪化不符合當代自由民主的這個價值跟憲政秩序所以立法院主動已經把這個藐視侮辱公署這樣的這個刑法已經把它廢止"},{"start":11309.913,"end":11335.685,"text":"所以我們現在國會要追求進步要來完善化自己的權利我們應該不要走歷史的倒車不要開歷史的倒車不用走回頭路我們可以用完善化國會調查的權限以及確保這個新的聽證程序在不違反權利分立的架構底下能夠有效的來促使"},{"start":11336.665,"end":11364.419,"text":"不管是政府機關或者是私人能夠來配合能夠讓剛才我們羅川賢全局長所提到的國會立法的資訊權能夠得到落實這個才是我們現在來討論不管是調查權也好或是聽證權也好一個非常重要的背景所以我想這個概念跟這個框架應該要先來釐清所以不是說今天新的國會組成"},{"start":11365.76,"end":11388.837,"text":"其實每四年都有新的國會組成民意會不斷地往前來演進比如說你新的國會組成你就覺得自己好像很大我們這個引入所謂的藐視國會概念不但是針對政府還要擴張到人民的身上我覺得這個心態跟態度建議大院要有所調整"},{"start":11389.955,"end":11397.112,"text":"第二個我們接下來就來討論說因為今天時間的關係我只挑今天的主題其中一件事情來講"},{"start":11398.527,"end":11427.087,"text":"也就是說今天我們認為一方面要有效來監督行政機關但是同時我們要防止個人的權益私人的權益或是說相關的individual rights能夠避免被侵害那這個時候我們就要來看剛才我們所提到的國會要行使所有的調查權或聽證的程序他到底是為了什麼目的"},{"start":11428.327,"end":11429.328,"text":"國會進行調查和聽證程序"},{"start":11454.031,"end":11471.559,"text":"為了什麼目的for what kind of purpose我們就沒有辦法去判斷說在這個裡面賦予他這些強制的手段罰還或是甚至有刑罰跟個人遭受到侵害的這個情境裡面這個利益權要怎麼樣來定"},{"start":11472.81,"end":11494.999,"text":"也就是說當然當我們要訂定強制的手段不管是法環也好或者是這個刑罰也好他當然都是對人民基本權的侵害但是是不是可以容忍在什麼樣的立法目的跟權力行使的目的底下要來去權衡我想這個是現在我們要來界定這個立法院要來進行調查權最困難的地方"},{"start":11496.028,"end":11523.147,"text":"這也是為什麼上次我就提到事實上我們在4至3月5的時候那時候的大法官會議他除了解決監察院到底還是不是國會的問題之外他其實也並沒有打算好像明文的賦予立法院調查權所以那個他的解釋其實是肯認只有到文件調閱的程度所以我們現在的資源刑事法裡面其實是依照4至3月5的精神"},{"start":11524.15,"end":11547.381,"text":"到4至585的時候這個時候其實是一個很特殊的情境我想大家都可以理解就是當年的319槍擊案對於國家社會造成的這個震驚跟這個異常的這樣的一個狀況甚至都還有這個要不要發布緊急命令這樣的一個提議所以在那個情況底下"},{"start":11548.837,"end":11562.936,"text":"大法官又在很短的時間來做出對於立法院所訂出來這個增調會的條例到底有沒有違反權力分立的原則所以我們可以看到當時的大法官會議事實上"},{"start":11564.09,"end":11582.63,"text":"他們著重在政調會各別的條文裡面到底他的這些各別條文是不是跟大選的行使和權力分立有所判決但是對於如何在什麼樣的情況底下立法院可以來發動調查所以用比較模糊的方式去說明"},{"start":11583.701,"end":11605.108,"text":"也就是說我們現在其實若要訂定廣泛的不是針對單一事件不是針對這種特殊情形而訂立了特別法來思考一個可長可久的完整的立法院調查權行使的法律的時候我們必須要去思考當初大法官並沒有去深思的那個問題也就是說"},{"start":11608.302,"end":11613.767,"text":"司法權或監察權．要發動調查．一定會有數字聲明．或法律規定．調查公務人員違法或失職．他的範圍．目的都很明確．可是立法院．"},{"start":11632.881,"end":11660.856,"text":"可以說包山包海開會的時候所有的這些政治工坊他沒有什麼界限所以如果說為了質詢的需要所以為了監督的需要所以我什麼都可以來調查這樣子一個強大的主動性的權利跟司法不一樣 不告不理如果賦予我們的立法院甚至個別立法委員有這樣的權利的時候"},{"start":11661.983,"end":11672.769,"text":"是不是這個社會上對於這樣子的權力行使應該要有戒慎恐懼的地方我再舉一個簡單的例子就結束我們可以看到"},{"start":11675.434,"end":11694.185,"text":"立法委員：在社會活動：基於社會活動本質的需要：必須要跟非常多的人來接觸：甚至還傳出說：可以交給：要求政府機關：代為邀約金控公司的董事長來參與：或者是"},{"start":11696.411,"end":11723.668,"text":"這個可能受託為了某些特定的目的來舉辦公聽會來迫使這個基部或是其他部會去修改他的法令變更他的法律見解甚至這樣的案子在法院假冠起訴還有貪瀆的罪這個案件已經一審有罪了那我們的立法委員在做這樣的事情的時候現在沒有這種所謂的調查權"},{"start":11725.565,"end":11745.463,"text":"這個所謂的沒有牙齒都可以做到這種程度那如果我們在沒有強化國會的自律跟倫理的規範就放任國會這個高度政治化高度政治對立的場域來去授予他們這樣的權利身為一個人民"},{"start":11746.516,"end":11773.413,"text":"我想我們必須要深思所以我要懇請我們的這個大院所有的委員在定定建權化國會調查跟立法資訊權的這個情況底下是不是同步的也要來這個思考對於這些權力的濫用的可能性或者是這些弊端要不要如何來防弊我想這個才能夠得到一個平衡符合憲法的要求以上 謝謝"},{"start":11776.415,"end":11784.761,"text":"謝謝黃律師先做程序的處理公聽會上午的時間繼續進行至所有發言均結束為止接著請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":11793.527,"end":11819.284,"text":"謝謝主席還有我尊敬的我們在場所有的學者專家各位好朋友那我想這兩場公聽會我都會來出席而且很認真在發言過程也不敢有太多的政治上的一個語言這個其實就是看到各位學者專家這麼深厚的一個法學素養來提出給國會這樣的一個建言首先我必須要去講就是說"},{"start":11820.545,"end":11836.716,"text":"這個本席支持我們國會要有聽證跟調查權但是聽證跟調查權的一個主體到底應該是限縮在機關或者還是要在擴張到人民的一個身上這幾天光這樣一個國會改革的一個議題"},{"start":11837.757,"end":11861.775,"text":"我相信召委很認真各位學者專家也勇於提供你們的一個建言我一直睡不著覺我一直在想要思考一個問題新的國會當然是新的民意但是這個民意在政治上它很有它的一個活力但是過度的一個提出法案那到底"},{"start":11862.815,"end":11884.744,"text":"擴張到人民 過度擴張到人民這會不會違憲 或者是干擾到人民這個我一直在做一個思考翻開我們整個中華民國的憲法你注意把它看我們的憲法第二章從第7條到第23條人民的基本的權利對這些自由權利的一個限制"},{"start":11886.294,"end":11907.492,"text":"在23條裡面啊大家一直講說這個要符合比例原則就是說你除了是為了防止妨礙他人自由還有緊急避難還有維持社會秩序跟公共利益以外你不可以去用法律來定制那很明顯的我最大的一個擔憂就是說我們現在又增加了一條藐視國會這個有沒有擴及到過度的在我們憲法23條所講的除了這四項"},{"start":11917.446,"end":11945.002,"text":"對自由權的一個限縮以外那會不會擴大對人民基本權益的一個干預上次在舉辦公聽會的時候本席去講述整個憲法法庭對我們國會改革歷年來的這些變動也就是說印證台灣目前的一個憲政的一個秩序我們是建立在整個憲法的一個成長上同時也去確保它的一個界限在原本的法規範的一個權衡之下提出"},{"start":11945.882,"end":11969.998,"text":"符合人民意志跟時代更迭的一個慘事對歷年來大法官的一個用心跟學養本席其實都致上很高的一個敬意那經過幾次的一個解釋以後我們知道他是在成長的那本次的會議主軸裡面聚焦在聽證權是不是干預到人民隱私跟自由的一個問題本席的一貫的主張都沒有改變"},{"start":11971.496,"end":11992.389,"text":"我第8屆進來的時候我看那個時候林佳龍委員都有提案到第9屆我還跟一個現在據傳要去當國防部長的人顧立雄共同去提案我們也認為要來確保整個國會整個權限的一個完整聽證跟調查他有他的一個必要但是我為什麼講說我立場一直沒有改變就是說立法院你具有輔助調查"},{"start":11993.65,"end":12005.622,"text":"並為人民揭露真相這樣的一個性質但是那個界限跟規範特別是干預到人民作為主體的時候我都一直認為要非常非常的一個謹慎當國會去啟動這個調查權或者聽證的時候"},{"start":12011.167,"end":12037.72,"text":"一定都是屬於高度的一個爭議這種高度爭議的事件的時候你才會去發動簡單來講就是說事件本身都已經是超越了政黨的一個意識的一個攻防甚至有些涉及到整個政爭在這樣的情況之下不管是哪一方的一個民意隨時都可以被另外一方所壓制但人民被迫去捲入立法院當中的一個政黨的一個鬥爭過程裡面"},{"start":12039.34,"end":12066.339,"text":"並強迫人民在聽證調查中做政治的一個表態同時這個擔負透過立法院決議來移送給檢調機關這樣的一個手段到底會沒有擴權的一個疑慮本集在強調就是說立法委員他是一個人民意志的一個延伸任何一個政黨不管大還是小他都有民意的一個基礎也就是說"},{"start":12067.677,"end":12097.103,"text":"更可以印證人民的意志不具有統一性所以當爭端發生在分屬不同民意的時候立法委員發動調查或者聽證的政治手段來達成對不同民意的回應的時候立法委員本身只是一個代行者最後的結果是把人民捲入立法院的爭端當中這到底符不合邏輯那本席剛講的要不要再把"},{"start":12099.843,"end":12114.232,"text":"這個藐視國會這個部分再把它加進來就變成說我們憲法第23條裡面本來那四項干涉人民的你先說人民自由權你現在又加了一項變成五項不要忘記啊立法委員本身他具有言論免責權"},{"start":12115.834,"end":12132.827,"text":"立法委員胡說八道就可以胡說八道那你現在把人們引進來一般人民受到國會的聽證調查的時候我很擔心他變成任我們立法院宰割的一隻孤鳥這個真的是大家就不得不謹慎了所以本席認為應該回歸調查權跟聽證權的主要的一個目的跟規範上為什麼要賦予國會聽證權跟調查權應該講說立法委員你想幹什麼就是說針對機關或者機構本身來講如果有不實"},{"start":12145.476,"end":12171.824,"text":"的一個陳述虛偽的陳述可予罰則或予警惕但現在如果把這個權力擴張到設懲擴張到人民的身上我相信可能也違反了這個權力本身的一個目的聽證跟調查可以讓人民獲得更正確的資訊以便下一次執政的時候政治選擇的時候做出更好的一個決斷這好事但不是讓人民被迫表態"},{"start":12173.064,"end":12188.941,"text":"或者說用藐視國會經院會決議就把他給送檢掉那立法院如果需要進行調查需要人民配合調查的時候你也可以請求人民來提供協助人民如果不協助立法院也應該予以尊重才對你如果說哎呦這個有弊案喔要不要讓社會來知道喔"},{"start":12191.263,"end":12199.793,"text":"有必案這個好像也應該是有其他證據去顯示的話有可能犯罪那還有司法機關可以向司法機關去做告發讓司法機關去偵查回歸到一個常態最後我要講的就是說"},{"start":12206.821,"end":12215.989,"text":"同時不同以司法人為主體．如果涉及到行政機關．在立法調查或聽證程序中．沒有正當理由．可以用對違反協助調查義務．科與法環的範圍內．來施以合理的強制手段．"},{"start":12224.757,"end":12249.157,"text":"透過不同調查．對向主體．可以不同的手段跟強制性這個我認為是最重要的一個觀念所以我在這邊也要提醒不同意見的在黨的朋友立法委員是一個代議士也肩負著政治上的一個責任並且代替部分的民意行使他們的一個取代而不是將原本的職責你拋回給老百姓說你要給我來 你到立法院來"},{"start":12249.557,"end":12275.439,"text":"接受我的一個調查也不要去忘記發動調查就是我在我們立法院有別於人民的免責權的部分卻是我們自己那人民為什麼要受到其他的強制的一個干預呢獲得真相並傳遞真相是立法委員的一個職責但是也是人民用選票託付給我們的一個重擔如果現在在人民對於國會調查或聽證程序有所期待"},{"start":12275.959,"end":12292.01,"text":"那我們應該是共同來回應這個民意 承擔這部分的責任我相信這才是立法委員的一個職責所在以上請我們各位委員 還有學生專家不吝指教 謝謝謝謝莊委員 接下來有請劉家維教授發言請"},{"start":12304.474,"end":12331.272,"text":"主席還有在場各位先進大家好大家辛苦了已經三個小時我們共同在這邊來研討研商這個議題那個人非常榮幸可以參加今天的公聽會我本身在臺北大學公共行政及政策學系服務那麼跟今天大部分的專家學者的背景比較不一樣我是來自於一個政治學的背景在系上也是教授政治學"},{"start":12331.972,"end":12357.2,"text":"那麼我今天10分鐘的發言呢會針對4個部分來做一些探討第一個我想提出一些關於這個議題政治學相關的一些原理第二個部分呢我們想要進入有關於585號釋憲也就是2004年所提出來的這個釋憲到目前已經20年了我們還沒有辦法落實那是不是我們可以就這個機會來落實它"},{"start":12360.102,"end":12380.654,"text":"檢察院有調查權利,立法院如果也有調查權利,是不是會有衝突?第三個部分,也就是今天我們所要討論的自由權與隱私權,如果我們有調查權的權利,那是不是會對於自由權與隱私權有所衝突?"},{"start":12381.554,"end":12407.031,"text":"最後我會談我對這個整個調查權還有聽證權的看法跟結論首先其實我也想問問線上的朋友或者是我們聆聽的委員以及在場的先進會不會覺得我們的立法委員在新聞畫面或是我們看國會的轉播頻道iVote的時候他們的質詢其實有時候是隔成沙的似乎他們"},{"start":12407.611,"end":12432.501,"text":"對於一些資訊的掌握是不夠的所以我們聽起來似乎有很多的語言有政治上面的攻防可是我經常想要知道立法委員跟行政官員之間的這個攻防到底是真實是什麼我想學習可是似乎我常常沒有辦法學習到這裡面真實的內容是不是因為這個部分的資訊不足"},{"start":12433.641,"end":12452.542,"text":"所以會造成有些委員甚至他會提到說我昨天看報發現我昨天看媒體知道了什麼什麼那為什麼都是從媒體知道的呢我不否認我自己在學校也教授政治傳播媒體的確非常重要而且他是很重要的第四權"},{"start":12453.303,"end":12482.045,"text":"也是我們問政的時候要參考的一個非常重要的依據但是如果有太多部分我們都要依據其他的來源而不是立法權本身的調查權利跟聽證的權利那麼我們這一項權利就沒有辦法落實而這是事先20年前就給我們立法的權利所以現在情況就是我們天平的兩端是失衡的行政權跟立法權之間是失衡的"},{"start":12482.725,"end":12503.091,"text":"立法院是我們國家最高的代議機構但是它的權力卻是長期的不彰因為它缺乏了聽證跟調查的權力那我們知道在政治學裡面權力分立跟權力制衡它是民主政治的天經地義"},{"start":12504.251,"end":12525.251,"text":"現在的行政部門是非常大的有龐大的官僚作為支持這是非常非常好對我們國家的發展是非常好但是如果在行政過程缺乏立法的制衡那麼就沒有辦法去保障人民的權利跟人民的自由所以我支持我們的立法院要有聽證跟調查權"},{"start":12527.453,"end":12553.903,"text":"接下來要談的第二個部分就是釋憲事上在585號釋憲今天非常先進都已經提到了他已經說明了調查權是立法院行使憲法職權的輔助性權利那麼這個輔助性權利就是對於立法院如果他遇到了拒絕配合資料的官員雖然現在有文件的調閱權"},{"start":12555.342,"end":12575.48,"text":"目前來說他幾乎沒有任何反制的能力那麼我們作為一個人民我們能夠接觸到代表我們的代議士這一些間接民主代表我們的這一些113席的立法委員他沒有反制能力所以我們應該賦予他們更多的權利"},{"start":12577.301,"end":12604.531,"text":"這項權利跟監察院的調查權有沒有悍合我們憲法非常清楚監察院的調查權是為了行使彈劾糾舉而有的權利那立法院的調查權是為了立法院職權的輔助功能所以它跟監察院的職權並不衝突我們來看憲法裡面怎麼規範立法院的它的職權"},{"start":12606.675,"end":12627.6,"text":"立法院有議決法律案、預算案、戒嚴案甚至大赦案、宣戰案、構合案、條約案及國家其他重要事項的權利那麼這些權利如果有調查權、聽證權的輔助那麼它會更為完整"},{"start":12629.54,"end":12646.146,"text":"所以在今天大院所提出的各種版本裡面都有要修改立法院職權行使法那麼我認為呢這個職權行使法要符合兩個原則來修訂第一個要件一定要明確化"},{"start":12647.346,"end":12648.146,"text":"必須要有透明公開的程序"},{"start":12665.993,"end":12687.902,"text":"現在有iVote真的非常好那我覺得我們非常多的公民朋友也都可以關注那麼未來有聽證的話這個透明公開程序也是非常需要但是有一些情況之下也就是我們今天所討論的提綱我提出了三點原則也就是未來國會有聽證調查權之後"},{"start":12692.024,"end":12715.498,"text":"人民的自由與隱私一樣必須受到保障第一個當證人的自由有危害的時候調查委員會不得舉行公開的會議並且要說明不公開的理由也就是公開為原則不公開為例外是可以不公開涉及自由與隱私的時候"},{"start":12716.448,"end":12722.699,"text":"第二點當調查涉及人身自由的時候也應該予以保密"},{"start":12724.141,"end":12748.352,"text":"第三點在基本人權遭受侵害的時候證人可以拒絕證言而且行使緘默權也就是我們要賦予國會更大權力的時候對人權的保障仍然是必要的那麼這是我對於今天提綱的回應最後在結論的部分"},{"start":12749.403,"end":12772.633,"text":"因為事實上我們在學校教書那距離這個立法院不管是距離上或心理上都是遙遠的所以我們當然都是從各種媒體還有社群媒體來關注我們國家的政治那我常聽學說政治是非常重要的我們常聽到一個說法是說立法院形象不佳所以我們不要給它這麼多權力"},{"start":12775.218,"end":12803.714,"text":"這句話對嗎?對嗎?是不是應該讓立法院的權力立法院的形象更好我們賦予他能夠做事更多的權力讓他發揮他憲法上面的職能所以立法院有了這項權力之後他應該要讓自己的形象更佳事實上一個權力握在手上他就是一個責任"},{"start":12805.034,"end":12827.127,"text":"所以希望未來有立法權之後我們的委員有這樣權利可以做更多事情要小心的使用那這個權利事實上它就是一個責任我覺得這個是未來有了這樣權利之後我們立法院的委員要謹記在心的這個事情"},{"start":12827.947,"end":12828.407,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12848.243,"end":12862.722,"text":"特別的在乎這個社會的眼光因為社會眼光可能會說這是擴權為什麼把自己的權力擴張如果要把自己的權力擴張事實上應該達到更多的責任把這個責任去落實"},{"start":12863.883,"end":12893.123,"text":"在落實的時候我最後講一點事實上必須賦予更多的預算跟人力而這個預算跟人力不是只放在立法院也要放在行政權的部分因為未來可能還有更多的事項是要配合調查那麼我也期待未來有了這項權力之後我們行政立法的互動會更好揭露更多的事實讓我們的公民社會更加的健全謝謝"},{"start":12904.046,"end":12920.831,"text":"主席 立委 各位專家學者跟官員大家好首先針對第一個部分調查權的範圍擴大跟它的法制的架構我試問兩個東西非常的重要第一個 是不是因為有了調查權尤其是監察院的調查權"},{"start":12921.311,"end":12941.366,"text":"那麼其他的各院的調查權應該要沒有 或者是要限縮也就是說 司法院要不要有調查權 考試院要不要有調查權要不要有行政院的調查權 當然是要的所以立法院的調查權是當然的道理那第二個部分 如果說我們允許行政官員或人民來說謊的話"},{"start":12943.027,"end":12943.047,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12959.993,"end":12978.354,"text":"日本的規定裡面雖然在國會法沒有做相關的強制跟處罰但是他確立了一個法就是國會證人宣誓跟作證法任何人都有配合國會作證的義務如果拒絕的時候或者是虛偽的時候他都有相關司法的一個懲罰"},{"start":12979.455,"end":12987.18,"text":"那麼我們看到司法院在大法官325他就已經有了文件的調閱權剛才大家很多學者都說了585號他承認了立法院有一定的調查權而這個調查權不僅僅是只有文件的調閱權還可以做人名陳述表達意見但是他必須要符合三個原則第一個比例原則"},{"start":13004.15,"end":13032.096,"text":"法律明確性原則職權重大關聯原則也就是說它是立法院的職權你才有機會去做相關的一個調查但是後來的633也把調查權准用監察法的有關規定但是後來的大法官事日729號卻沒有區分到底對司法審查的案子是如何來區分那這個部分當然我們認為"},{"start":13033.456,"end":13057.342,"text":"如果要定立一個藐視國會罪的話應該要有五個原則第一個就是罪行不能過重也就是說它基本上是一年以下的問題第二個它必須要針對情節重大者第三個應該要先有行政的制裁才有所謂的司法的制裁第四個以美國的案例來說的話"},{"start":13058.502,"end":13078.43,"text":"如果這個被追究者願意來提供資料或更正他的不實的時候 國會也接受的時候就不需要再追究他的相關的責任當然剛才說的 在審判當中的案子的話 那麼國會基本上是不進行相關的一個調查"},{"start":13079.07,"end":13081.913,"text":"接下來我們認為說是不是第二個問題會不會接觸到企業的營業秘密或者是個人的隱私的問題這個部分我們也看到了我國的憲法第67條其實它在67條同時用了邀請跟備詢總共有四個文字"},{"start":13102.771,"end":13115.301,"text":"邀請本身是不具有強制力但是避允本身在憲法上面是可以討論的也就是說它有相關的義務可循但是它最重要的區分也就是說日本國會法51條跟德國的眾議院議事規則70條來關它最重要的區分在有無政黨旅遊而拒絕出席"},{"start":13124.748,"end":13148.674,"text":"所以有無政黨理由是它的最重要的區分點那怎麼樣去區分有無政黨理由有的說它可以拒絕但是國會它有再次審查再次邀請的一個權利也就是說國會有它審查的一個機制但是至於企業的秘密或個人的隱私的部分我建議可以參考"},{"start":13149.714,"end":13171.546,"text":"我們國家的政府資訊公開法第18條第6款跟第7款他其實在對政府的要求提供政府的資訊的時候他就針對個人隱私或者是營業上的秘密有相關的規定那我也在資料裡面有提供到第6款到第7款的一個規定我就不再重述了那麼我們看到了在美國"},{"start":13177.549,"end":13183.354,"text":"針對這樣的一個釐清的時候他曾經講過一句話在大法官講過一句話他說受懲戒若不承認議會有懲處的權利議會將隨時暴露在各種威脅之中遭受出入陰謀的行為"},{"start":13198.426,"end":13219.133,"text":"所以最高法院也明確表示受懲戒者改變心意願意提供資訊更正不死懲戒便可停止所以美國國會裡面的藐視國會罪其實它只能移送給法院提起公訴而且它的刑期是不受國會任期而改變的"},{"start":13220.033,"end":13226.017,"text":"當然最後我必須說明在這個國會調查權裡面其實它還可以在設計委託調查也就是說委託調查也可以委託給監察院進行調查也可以設計成為一個像北歐Obsman的監察室的制度來做國會的調查室制度"},{"start":13242.746,"end":13265.18,"text":"當然我也必須要提醒當然在追究在行政官員跟人民的責任的情況當中必須提出立法院的自立問題因為以我們國家的立委自立的懲戒立委的方式我在做的研究裡面是全世界最輕的也就是說我們看到德國日本美國"},{"start":13266.181,"end":13284.902,"text":"英國都有開除國會議員的制度甚至有暫停立委職權他的特殊權利跟薪資一定期間的制度但是我們國家目前在立委的紀律制度裡面全部都沒有"},{"start":13285.422,"end":13286.403,"text":"謝謝吳教授最後我們請登記發言的羅志強委員發言"},{"start":13315.885,"end":13331.218,"text":"謝謝今天所有的專家學者我其實是在辦公室聽了一整天我是每一個人的發言我都聽那首先我想要呼應一下我們的主席我們的中嘉賓委員他在前面的發言他有在談論到他認為這段時間很多有關於國會的聽證調查還有藐視國會的討論是憲法不好中文不好"},{"start":13340.475,"end":13368.656,"text":"那我們中委員還主張要廢除監察院我這邊要給中委員大大的掌聲先講廢除監察院我也是非常支持所以我會提修憲案到時候跟找中委員連署的時候也請中委員一併的來支持我們朝野共同把這個目前來講其實真的沒有什麼憲政作用的監察院把它廢除掉那另外一個講到所謂的憲法不好 中文不好那我要特別講"},{"start":13369.819,"end":13378.253,"text":"鍾委員你也蠻有勇氣的一口氣把賴清德、鄭麗君、陳其邁、林佳龍、蔡同榮全部都打了一輪耳光"},{"start":13379.247,"end":13399.377,"text":"為什麼呢 因為這些民進黨目前的新貴或者是前輩都曾經把支持聽證調查乃至於藐視國會當成他從政的神聖之志那尤其蔡同榮 林佳龍對於說謊官員要審以刑事責任也是在他們過去的法案主張當中長期的堅持"},{"start":13401.857,"end":13426.976,"text":"所以換言之這一群人看來都是憲法不好或是中文不好不過基於對準總統還有準行政院副院長的尊重我可能還是要幫他們說句話我覺得他們不是憲法不好不是中文不好他們只是記性不好而已不把自己話當話而已比如說今天換了屁股換了位子就換了腦袋"},{"start":13428.357,"end":13448.945,"text":"事實上我已經提出了民進黨版的2016年的國會改革版本這個版本當中其實一字不漏的來承襲民進黨2016國會改革版本我希望我的國會改革版本不會被評為憲法不好跟所謂的中文不好"},{"start":13449.665,"end":13474.075,"text":"那另外我也要特別講 國會改革法案在我這段時間的參與跟討論當中我真的覺得是一個政治造妖鏡然後也可以說是一本綠色療齋這鬼話 鬼故事蠻多的其中最好笑的是我今天看到包括林志傑這個教授在內很多的一些過去這些我們講說所謂的法律學者"},{"start":13475.014,"end":13502.804,"text":"今天竟然可以用各種的理由在擺班護航 官員說謊的權利啊我真是眼睛真的是差點沒有跟下巴一起掉下來那當然林志傑委員上次公聽會他就公聽會所有紀錄很明明白白他說我們現在國會改革草案當中對於所謂的官員的說謊跟保持緘默的權利他是沒有尊重這些權益那不就是保障官員說謊權嗎"},{"start":13504.525,"end":13523.256,"text":"沒關係 其實林志傑教授可能那時候說話不精確 他想要修正修正其實很簡單喔 怎麼簡單請你支持蔡同榮 林佳龍 還有羅志強所提出來的國會改革版本你直接公開告訴大家 官員說謊就要罰講完就結束了嘛"},{"start":13526.158,"end":13541.988,"text":"就可以把你之前你認為造成誤解的護航官員說謊權這件事打消啦因為你只要公開主張官員說謊萬千不該就是要以法律繩之要加以處罰"},{"start":13543.129,"end":13568.683,"text":"你公開主張那你過去的這些大家就當作原來是誤會一場所以也建議我們的林志傑教授也不要抱屈你只要大聲的宣布從今天開始我林志傑到立法院公聽會我會直接要求直接要求官員說謊就是要處罰那當然另外我真的是說真的我看了最近很多有關於國會改革的討論"},{"start":13569.844,"end":13595.34,"text":"我都想官員說謊什麼時候可以變成是一個權力捍衛了這麼天經地義但是我要特別來講這些捍衛官員說謊權神聖不可侵犯的綠油友們你們不要忘了在蔡英文總統就任總統之前就民進黨還沒當官之前民進黨的國會改革版本就是我提的2016版本就主張官員不能說謊"},{"start":13596.772,"end":13613.984,"text":"而且如果官員說謊：可以按次連續處罰一萬到三十萬元的罰緩可是2012年的林家用版本更是要出於有期徒刑但是民進黨現在提出的版本已經送出來的版本他把說謊要罰這個條文直接拿掉"},{"start":13614.895,"end":13642.077,"text":"那我就要問林志爺教授你知不支持2016版本說謊要罰2024版本你想直接移掉說謊不用罰了那請問說謊到底要罰還是不用罰所以因此我要講的就是說民進黨我也看到辯詞是哎呀時空在改變法律要進步對不對我們2016版本落伍啦我沒有看到2016版本落伍欸我看到的是什麼我沒有看到時空環境我只看到民進黨在的位置不一樣啦"},{"start":13643.188,"end":13659.555,"text":"民進黨還沒有當官還沒有執政之前這個官員說謊就是罪該萬死阿但是民進黨一旦執政有關做的國會改革官員說謊就是騙人天賦全力阿神聖不可侵犯阿他跟時空環境改變有關嗎"},{"start":13661.058,"end":13675.889,"text":"它跟所謂的法律要進步有關嗎?它是跟你屁股所在位置在哪裡有關?是這麼瞧不起台灣人民的智商嗎?最後剛剛有接聽很多學者有很多精闢的論述我覺得這樣修法都可以考慮但是第一個我要講"},{"start":13677.472,"end":13693.614,"text":"被告不自證己罪不能夠曲解為被告可以在法庭說謊這不同的兩件事啊被告不自證己罪是不能以偽證罪來去處罰但是今天被告在法庭上說謊法官就會以態度不良"},{"start":13694.235,"end":13718.404,"text":"沒有毀譯 從眾量刑啊所以量刑過程當中 他仍然是被告說謊 仍然是量刑考量之一啊那第二個是講拒絕證言在我們的刑事訴訟制度裡面證人原則上要有證人 要作證 證言他就在例外的規定情況 他可以拒絕證言但是即便證人有例外狀況下拒絕證言 不等於證人可以說謊"},{"start":13720.6,"end":13744.698,"text":"國會在做聽證調查來的所有的出席的人都不是被告他最多只是比較像是今天形式上也甚至連證人都不應該來對比但是比較像但即便形式訴訟制度裡面證人的證言拒絕可以拒絕在特定情況但是呢如果你今天願意到庭上作證你說謊就是偽證罪"},{"start":13745.859,"end":13772.649,"text":"同樣的將來國會聽證調查一樣可以有些狀況之下可以設計為不公開也可以設計為某種情況之下拒絕證言的處理但是今天如果你上來拒絕的時候按照美國按照日本這些所謂的有藐視國會罪有聽證調查制度的國家他們都憲法不好中文不好嗎還是今天只是民進黨記性不好呢所以我回頭就要講一個最根本的問題是"},{"start":13774.505,"end":13791.423,"text":"今天過去20年我剛剛非常認同剛剛吳教授跟劉教授講的其實立法院我們常常有看到立法委員就說今天我是看到媒體報導抱歉我幹立法委員兩個月我跟官員索資就是要不到資料嘛他不給你你能怎麼樣嘛"},{"start":13793.49,"end":13804.818,"text":"他不給你你拿他沒辦法就這麼簡單完全政治變官員變良心事業給不給你資料看他高興所以最後國會聽證調查藐視國會非常重要 以上 謝謝"},{"start":13806.825,"end":13826.433,"text":"好 謝謝那麼所有學者專家及登記發言委員均已發言完畢接著進行政府機關代表發言那我這裡先做個詢問因為時間的關係今天有送書面資料的有包括立法院、行政院跟司法院那麼其他的列席機關代表並沒有呈送書面意見"},{"start":13829.715,"end":13848.272,"text":"請教立法院司法院及行政院代表有沒有書面意見以外的意見要做現場的口頭陳述請教我們張副秘書長立法院沒有請教我們司法院的陳廳長有沒有主席沒有請教我們行政院的羅副處長"},{"start":13851.91,"end":13856.423,"text":"其他沒有提供書面資料的列席機關代表人員有沒有要補充"},{"start":13858.629,"end":13885.655,"text":"沒有的話那今日公聽會的發言到此告一段落感謝所有與會者從不同的面向提供諸多寶貴的意見今天各位所有的發言內容與書面意見以及委員審發會所提書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及本日初列席人員參考本次公聽會到此結束謝謝大家現在散會"},{"start":13895.538,"end":13895.598,"text":"主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}