{"error":false,"id":["158008"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":158008,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158008","日期":"2024-12-06","影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-06T15:42:33+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-06T16:03:12+08:00","影片長度":"00:20:39","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c85634c9873cd0732c7556e81d3fff51aa2e200073c6c0841014112f653279601c9e0eb0984d72d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"15:42:33 - 16:03:12","會議時間":"2024-12-06T14:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第1次全院委員會（事由：總統咨，為考試院第十三屆院長、副院長及考試委員任期於113年8月31日屆滿，茲依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗鈴、黃東益、伊萬．納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.52596875,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.195968750000002,"end":26.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.13971875,"end":33.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.44346875,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.47721875,"end":33.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.494093750000005,"end":33.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.16909375,"end":37.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.57784375,"end":42.353468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.471593750000004,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.85721875000002,"end":143.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.62034375000002,"end":144.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.91971875000002,"end":149.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.20159375,"end":150.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.28159375,"end":151.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.33221875,"end":161.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.96346875,"end":163.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.06471875,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.24596875,"end":163.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.41471875000002,"end":174.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.03471875000002,"end":165.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.77721875,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.87284375000002,"end":175.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.83471875,"end":177.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.86846875,"end":181.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.27721875,"end":179.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.40346875,"end":181.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.02784375000002,"end":201.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.12909375,"end":183.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.77159375000002,"end":205.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.86784375000002,"end":208.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.62284375000002,"end":242.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.25034375,"end":254.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.82659375000003,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.08659375,"end":283.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.02034375,"end":285.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.45471875000004,"end":291.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.93471875,"end":298.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.68909375000004,"end":297.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.92096875000004,"end":335.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.02909375,"end":338.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.94846875,"end":339.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.97784375000003,"end":341.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.17596875000004,"end":342.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.11659375000005,"end":343.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.46659375,"end":346.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.72784375000003,"end":355.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.58721875000003,"end":358.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.28721875,"end":367.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.24409375000005,"end":364.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.77096875,"end":367.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.78784375000004,"end":385.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.80471875,"end":367.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.22471875,"end":381.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.36721875,"end":440.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.52784375000005,"end":438.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.23659375000005,"end":439.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.24909375000004,"end":444.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.27784375000005,"end":449.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.74971875000006,"end":455.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.00659375000004,"end":455.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.72346875000005,"end":484.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.95096875,"end":500.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.57284375000006,"end":503.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.37846875,"end":508.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.79534375000003,"end":514.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.93784375,"end":515.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.1359687500001,"end":518.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.4140937500001,"end":520.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.59096875,"end":558.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.60784375,"end":520.6415937500001},{"speake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有請考試委員被提名人黃東益教授請黃被提名人答詢"},{"start":33.171,"end":53.565,"text":"委員好教授好恭喜黃教授被提名聽說好像在院內也有您的學生這個桃李滿天下那因為您本身是政治學的博士也多次擔任考試典事委員、命題委員也曾經主編文官制度參與國家考試相關政策的設計跟研究"},{"start":54.085,"end":71.065,"text":"可以說是對於整個考試制度的心格文官培養的研究都是您的強項同時您也寫了很多跟開放政府有關的文章我也拜讀過了那想先首先針對最近有非常多人關注的公務人員退府制度的問題來向您請教"},{"start":73.047,"end":98.433,"text":"公務人員保險法的相關條文修正以後在2023年的7月1號起新進的公務人員退府基金由這個確定給付制改為確定提撥制這個我想你應該知道了那這兩個制度其實有很大的不同是說以前是終身給付沒有個人帳戶的現在則是有個人帳戶等於是領完就沒有了"},{"start":99.193,"end":124.376,"text":"所以現在未來的公務員退休之後開始領錢個人帳戶裡面的錢領完之後就不能再領了不像以前月退可以領到登出這個世界為止現行的退府機制也不能說是不好但是有一個狀況如果未來的經理人操作的績效不好未來的退休金可能也會受到影響所以我們來看一下也想請教您"},{"start":125.057,"end":138.004,"text":"就公務人員的退休金改為確定提撥制以後與勞工退休金一樣不再是終身給付跟千萬勞工都相同您認為會不會降低國人報考國家考試的誘因"},{"start":140.576,"end":160.971,"text":"這個部分我不太確定因為一般的考生他可能對於這個部分還不是那麼樣的瞭解所以您覺得公務員以前大家說公務員等於鐵飯碗或者說公務員有這個勞退的這個保障您覺得這對他們不是誘因不會構成影響"},{"start":162.292,"end":180.647,"text":"您現在沒有看法新聞都出來了這個會是一個誘因但是就像我們剛剛所提到的就是對於這個新的制度沒關係我問您一句話您覺得公務員或報考的人在不在乎他的退休金嗎"},{"start":181.288,"end":181.588,"text":"本金的部分"},{"start":209.059,"end":227.767,"text":"好沒關係這個希望您之後了解一下因為退府基金真的是我們公務體系裡面非常重要的一環那當然我們可以講不管本金還是利息怎麼樣過去確實狀況還不錯啦收益還蠻好的但是呢我們可以看到其實我們的退府基金"},{"start":228.507,"end":253.834,"text":"也是在投股票的喔也是在投股票的喔有時候我們都跟年輕人講說不要這個炒股啊但當然股票可以說是一種投資正常的方式但是其實我們有佔比非常大的台積電將近40%鴻海5%所以等於什麼我們國家重壓台積電之外我們連退府基金都重壓台積電啊那當然啦我們當然希望他好但是"},{"start":254.895,"end":283.291,"text":"有沒有可能賠錢有沒有可能世界的變動影響結果我們的退伏基金也縮水我想請教佩庭名人以您數據治理的專業背景來看這些基金管理局一下公佈說賺錢了也可能賠錢那你說他說他自己說他賺錢你覺得值得信任嗎有沒有辦法確保這些公佈的基金持股是透明而且正確不是經過扭曲或者篡改的怎麼查核怎麼驗證您知道嗎"},{"start":284.131,"end":298.753,"text":"我覺得這個部分未來如果有機會到考試院的話我們會讓它透明化因為我過去一直都是強調透明的價值透明、克制都是必須要的"},{"start":298.953,"end":318.78,"text":"好 很好其實您以前也提過這個問題因為有人可能會不願意承認他賠錢嗎有可能這個數字我們應該要第三方查核嗎那您過去曾經表示將倡議透過數位化的工具這是您對於我們書面問題的答覆說將倡議透過數位化的工具來強化基金財務狀況的監控與透明度"},{"start":324.242,"end":349.294,"text":"以增強您剛剛提到的透明度跟公信力請問被提名人您所謂的數位化工具到底能不能舉例您提到的透明化能不能舉例啊不然很空泛啊我想這個最基本的就是要公開嘛當然我不知道目前的這個基金的操作的過程裡面我知道在一些民間的公司他們會用一些的"},{"start":350.794,"end":372.046,"text":"演算法或者AI的這個部分去做運算然後就是減少人為的這個操作的部分那當然這個是在一個比較可靠的這些演算法或者是投資的模型裡面去做的部分當然我們剛剛有提到啦就是他最後的投資結果可能是一個Excel表"},{"start":372.887,"end":385.046,"text":"這個東西有可能中間不一定可以被信賴嘛他其實應該還要有更多的機制、制度跟工具去查核他啦第三方驗證也好啦驗算的機制也好啦其實齁我給你一個暗示齁"},{"start":386.431,"end":411.285,"text":"其實這種不管是做假帳啦或者是這種我們都相信不會存在但是我們應該要這個要料情從寬嘛對不對我就給您一個提示啊其實現在各國呢都有導入新的科技您剛剛提到的是AI有人呢認為很多數據在公務部門尤其操作這種大額資金的時候可以用區塊鏈的技術來做這個不可篡改的記錄跟驗證到時候呢賠錢他賴不掉了"},{"start":413.186,"end":437.509,"text":"甚至我直接投資的標的就在區塊鏈上面一來一往全部都不可篡改其實從美國、英國到日本都開始有退伏基金在考慮甚至已經投資像比特幣這種已經被各國承認的資產我想請教您鏈上基金或者是把基金拿去投資鏈上的資產同時也獲得透明度、數位化、可信任、不可篡改"},{"start":438.269,"end":455.003,"text":"這個方向您支不支持 同不同意我想如果考試院未來在資源充足、技術成熟還有整個人力豐沛的情況之下我覺得是可以來評估來使用的一個方向不反對 可以研議嘛 對不對 很好"},{"start":455.783,"end":483.871,"text":"那我想再來再討論一下就是這個比較應該還是需要做透明化就我們剛剛講的是數位化、科技化再來和您討論一下退府基金操作的績效其實我們也去看了目前有一點透明化一部分就是退府基金對於前十大持股當然我們剛剛講到的這些確實都有在官網定期公開但是對於前二十大的虧損持股"},{"start":485.491,"end":500.525,"text":"卻沒有公開沒有定期公開想請教您對於退府基金操作的前20大虧損持股是不是應該要比照前20大的或前10大的持股也應該要公開來接受公眾的監督呢"},{"start":501.753,"end":529.986,"text":"我覺得這個部分可能要審慎評估一下因為第一個就是說短期的虧損他對長期來講他可能不見得虧損那如果這個公布的話會不會引起投資人的一些的不理性的行為或者誤導等等是很好我覺得這一點一喜一憂喜的是您是非常一致的這跟您過去的資訊跟詢答是一樣的但是一憂是什麼呢"},{"start":530.586,"end":557.747,"text":"我個人會覺得您一方面在過去強調開放政府您剛剛自己也提到了資訊透明你為什麼要報喜不報憂呢那我們以後的開放政府我們都只講好的啊我們有人員流動有霸凌我都不要講啊這樣的態度是對的嗎您一方面強調要資訊透明一方面又反對公開虧損的資訊你到底是要透明還是要半透明到底要全透明還是不透明還是選擇性的透明"},{"start":558.467,"end":587.906,"text":"公務人員退府基金的投資牽涉到非常大一筆錢如果政府堅持不公開虧損的資訊也應該要適時揭露您剛剛提到偶爾有一點小虧損可以不要我虧了10%我虧了20%、50%甚至已經變幣值了要不要揭露才能夠讓大家對退府基金有信心才能夠增加更多的人才來報考國家考試這個部分您願不願意改變一下您的觀點我想我可以"},{"start":589.023,"end":610.36,"text":"再去評估思考一下好不好因為這是擔心對於一些民眾的誤導那萬一民眾是很健康的民眾的眼睛是雪亮的民眾的心理是很強韌的我們現在一邊要強調韌性我們要信任我們的人民好不好接下來我想和您討論一下政府內部資訊人力的問題剛剛有委員也提到"},{"start":611.201,"end":627.339,"text":"本席曾經拜讀您的大作書中暢談了政府數位轉型的各個面向我也非常感謝您一直提到開放政府、數位政府那您提到有一句金句說資訊人力是政府最重要的後盾本席非常認同"},{"start":628.46,"end":652.354,"text":"我作為阿宅科技立委我非常認同但是依據全序部2022年年底的統計資料顯示全國公務人員資訊處理的職系只有3600多人相較之下同樣被定義為幕僚單位的會計審計的職系有11000多人人事行政職系有9700人我不是要比較他們的重要性或什麼但我必須要講"},{"start":653.834,"end":674.522,"text":"資訊人力在接下來的世界越來越重要這樣的比例您認同嗎我們還有資安的問題接下來還有您提到的數位化的政府要做後盾啊您會不會認為這個後盾太單薄、太脆弱了一點感覺跟我們的政府好像有點不堪一擊啊您可不可以回應一下呼喚一下我們的這個左內閣啊"},{"start":675.602,"end":693.293,"text":"我想的確我們總統也主張要推動政府智慧國家所以在這個資訊的人員資源的投入都應該要相對應要增加嘛特別是剛剛委員提到像資安的人才"},{"start":693.533,"end":722.211,"text":"沒錯那這個部分其實是非常重要的謝謝您認同這樣的方向應該要提高吧3000太少了嘛 對不對我這裡當然您過去一直呼籲您現在未來有機會可以直接進來我想卓院長上台有喊出AI內閣各部會紛紛推出AI相關的研究計畫但是人事行政總署的資料我必須告訴您近十年來行政院所屬各部會的資訊人力完全幾乎完全沒有增加"},{"start":723.673,"end":743.131,"text":"請被提名人猜猜看最容易受到駭客攻擊的國防部目前有多少資訊人員猜一下五百、一千、三千人裡面有多少人您猜一下嘛大概兩百人很抱歉告訴你真的很不足啦五位"},{"start":744.434,"end":766.204,"text":"五位這五位資訊人員這個單薄的人力要對抗來自全世界對國防部可能造成的攻擊蔡英文前總統說資安及國安這就是我們的國安我想考試院是國家最高的機關您掌理這些考試、公務人員、權序、保障、升遷甚至是褒獎等等"},{"start":767.344,"end":780.471,"text":"我想您的這個職官希望您進去之前之後都希望可以再提升一下再請您猜猜看考試院您要進來的這個地方目前配置有幾名資訊人員"},{"start":782.179,"end":811.577,"text":"我想考試院的話他除了院本部之外三千多人有幾位剛剛提到的是國防部有五個啊那個就是國防部的部本部嘛那考試院的話可能應該更多吧院本部之外還有考選部對對對你大概抓一下嘛大概十來位吧十來位十位都不到只有九位十位都不到只有九位聽到這個數字我想被提名的人可能會很害怕本席聽您感到害怕"},{"start":812.037,"end":830.55,"text":"會不會哪天睡醒了我們高普考的考題就被駭掉了會不會哪天睡醒了我們錄取的榜單就被駭掉了會不會哪天睡醒我們的退府基金的錢就被駭客轉光了資料被篡改了日前勞動部的這個發展北分署傳出這個不幸的事件"},{"start":831.371,"end":852.72,"text":"一名無性資訊的這個職系的公務人員因為單位內他是唯一正職的資訊人員可以說是被迫了承擔了所有的資訊業務包括新的AI專案那長期這個時間嚴重不足身心受到殘害現在大AI的口號一起喊起來"},{"start":853.26,"end":876.409,"text":"各部會都來做：結果是去剝削公務人員的時間：跟他的體力甚至是他的心神：可以說是全國所有人最壞的示範請問貝比汀這樣子我們剛剛提到的人力編制以您工型系教授的專業來看稱得上合格嗎還是我們其實是最負面的教材這個需要檢討你覺得是需要檢討"},{"start":877.307,"end":895.9,"text":"是不是不合格啊這個應該要真的再不改善我們真的會變成最負面的教材那我想還有一個地方也希望您關注一下以前我們都講資訊人力資訊人力但是實際上資訊人力有非常多種有資訊有您剛剛提到的資安有數據資管"},{"start":897.361,"end":919.617,"text":"可能還有IT這種infrastructure的人力他們都分別屬於不同面向的業務想請問一下被提名人這些比較專業的題我想你應該都了解你是否認同一個高度專業化的數位化的政府是不是應該要針對三種或四種或更多不同種類的資訊的人員或者很多專業也都有細化"},{"start":921.158,"end":941.292,"text":"是不是應該要針對這些更多的專業的企劃來做不同的類科進行考試確保我們的政府可以錄取符合專長的專業人力嘛不然你不同的專業的人力你以為說你懂電腦不錯你會裝作業系統你來處理資安你會弄資安的你來幫我們弄APP這樣可能不太對吧您知不知恥啊"},{"start":942.022,"end":957.011,"text":"我想委員這個提議其實蠻好的那未來我們到如果有機會到考試院就是要跟這個用人機關一起來討論怎麼樣把這個事實細化嗎細化資訊人才細化其他所有專業的人才我想這個"},{"start":958.091,"end":976.197,"text":"主要是如果用人機關他們覺得有這個必要的話我們會做相對應的調整我時間有限但我跟您分享一下2024年我們確實開始細化了偵測資通安全類科結果咧今年7月我們招考資安人員竟然只提報11個職缺"},{"start":978.318,"end":993.832,"text":"這就是我們要的資安跟國安嗎請問被提名人您覺得問題出在哪裡我們的政府是當慣老闆上癮了嗎越少的人可以做越多的工作越好嗎社會現在是重科技輕人文我們的政府反而是重人文輕科技嗎"},{"start":994.873,"end":1019.87,"text":"我們是不是應該要balance一下政府要帶頭做啊是不是可以balance帶頭做我想這個就是未來跟用人機關再做一個討論就是說是不是能夠反映他們真正需要的這個援額那如果他們覺得這個是需要再增加的話我想考試院這邊會來做必要的調整我想這個議題非常的重要啦您一直提到數位化的政府"},{"start":1020.49,"end":1044.317,"text":"我們這些資安的人力不足資訊的人力不足我們這些人想要進來幫忙條條框框結果呢您會不會未來進入了這個體制以內結果呢閉口不談這些問題外界會不會以後講說黃考試委員就沒有黃教授當時的風苦了您要怎麼面對學生面對你的讀者啊您是不是可以承諾我們剛剛提到的這些問題如果您進來了"},{"start":1045.197,"end":1068.912,"text":"可不可以努力 全力努力我會努力來把委員剛剛所提到的這些具有創新性的一些想法然後也貼近實務的想法 帶到考試院跟其他先進一起來努力好 除了細化以外 除了人力增加以外其實還有一個最關鍵的問題 我想要跟您談談公部門的資安或資訊人才的薪資"},{"start":1070.573,"end":1087.355,"text":"12月4號交通委員會的鍾嘉斌委員其實就提到我以前也一直不斷的在提了資安的人才要進到政府我們應該要符合他們在這個社會上的薪資條件甚至連民進黨的委員都提出來了以前我們是以職續薪"},{"start":1088.796,"end":1104.526,"text":"結果產業的人進不來一個AI的人才在美國起步新資大學剛畢業450萬年薪結果我們現在用我們的方法來聘可能沒辦法我想請教被提名人政府的資訊人才"},{"start":1105.467,"end":1122.167,"text":"有沒有可能去改用不要是以前的這種以值序薪用以薪序職你過去在產業什麼樣的薪水我希望你不要差太多進到我們的部門體系裡面來替國家服務有沒有辦法做到您認為可不可行"},{"start":1122.808,"end":1135.399,"text":"我想這個可以去努力但是因為我們整個考試制度其實非常重要一個基石是公平黃教授我們剛剛才講你不要以前寫書寫一寫寫的話開放政府啊結果你現在說那個賠錢的不要講數位化啊然後你講說資訊人力這個各種問題您的風骨還在嗎"},{"start":1149.268,"end":1169.836,"text":"承諾一下吧!以心續職啊!我們會努力去做一個評估那如果可行的話我們當然就來做所以您現在沒有想法對不對?我現在不太敢確認因為對這個議題的瞭解還沒有那麼深刻那我知道業界跟政府部門就像剛剛委員所提到的那個心思是真的"},{"start":1170.646,"end":1194.217,"text":"這不是藉口好嗎各國都在補充資訊的人力以前是資安及國安做得沒有很好我們都看到了以後是資訊及國安你資訊能力、資訊人力沒有進來我們的國家怎麼可能會強盛呢我們的公務體系大家怎麼可能有辦法平均分擔他們的工作呢以心蓄質考慮一下最後本席要強調"},{"start":1195.854,"end":1210.811,"text":"政府口口聲聲的在講資安及國安政府口口聲聲的在講勞動的人力是心頭最軟的那塊肉結果我們阿宅被放到國防部五個考試院九個"},{"start":1212.252,"end":1234.766,"text":"我們的公務員累過頭甚至還被霸凌我想這種長期的不足還有過去發生的憾事冰山一角希望未來如果您真的成為考試委員要有風骨進到考試院以後借助您的專才幫助我們的政府加強數位化、透明化還有開放政府的目標前進可以承諾嗎"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}