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謝謝大會主席我們請考試院委員被提名人黃東益教授請黃被提名人答詢"},{"start":24.977,"end":46.011,"text":"委員好黃貝提名很好那我就待會我的稱呼對你稱黃老師好了畢竟我們是政大的這個校友這個黃老師我想這個昨天立法院在審查最近在討論這個公務人員退休撫恤法相關修法審查那我不知道黃老師對於權敘部提出的修法意見你有沒有看過他的修法意見"},{"start":47.006,"end":70.776,"text":"有大致了解嗎?有大致了解嗎?但我想現階段我們考試院：對不起現在全區部的立場這公務人員退輔基金改革是希望能夠透過調降以退休人員的所得替代率達成讓退輔基金得以永續的目標簡單來說是讓退休的人齡少一點讓更多的人齡久一點是不是這個樣子?"},{"start":76.224,"end":81.607,"text":"讓退休已經退休的人零少一點 達成讓更多的人零九一點的目標"},{"start":84.253,"end":103.246,"text":"大致上是如此吧那被提名你在看這個相關資料的時候不知道有沒有一句話讓你覺得有點矛盾我也放在這個資料上面在這個全序部昨天提出的八大意見裡面來講如果我們調降所謂的年金改革做這個公務人員退府基金改革的目標是要"},{"start":104.506,"end":127.919,"text":"讓更多人領久一點讓退休的人領少一點的話有一句話我覺得有點奇怪我不知道你看到會不會覺得有點奇怪就是呢這個八大理由的部分有講到說年改後退休者的時之月退休金額反而會持續增加這個是權序部寫的意見你有沒有覺得這件事情跟大家想像的不太一樣"},{"start":128.888,"end":158.261,"text":"因為退休人員他也會根據一個辦法他們在過去的幾年裡面有調了6%所以他也會跟著持續增加這個是我的理解我不知道跟我的理解有沒有不一樣因為我們大概每這個CPI增加到5%的時候就要做調整或者是每四年要檢討一次所以我們退休人員所領的月退休金"},{"start":159.409,"end":179.29,"text":"在過去幾年裡面也增加了6%所以這個是他增加的部分黃老師謝謝那當然我想你歷屆的部分是正確的一部分沒有提到那為什麼這個年改後新退休者的十字月退休金額會持續增加呢那當然是因為這幾年新退休的人他的公務員調薪了嘛"},{"start":180.899,"end":191.465,"text":"他新退休的他當然因為調薪所以他的本縫提高了所以他當然他後續的這個月退之縫能夠當然能夠增加但是我們今天要強調的是有兩個部分第一個如果"},{"start":192.27,"end":218.109,"text":"政府一直講說這個要破產了錢不夠用所以要去調降以前的這個承諾讓已經退休的人他們沒有辦法去面對去對抗這件事情那反而那是有去有足夠的資源足夠的金額足夠的預算讓新退休者第一個現階段的所有公務員能夠調薪新退休者的這個資金也能夠提高這是第一件事情這是我覺得這是反而還真的世代不爭議這是第一件事情"},{"start":218.709,"end":237.795,"text":"第二件事情是剛剛教授提到所謂CPI調整的部分現行的CPI調整是達到5%之後才來啟動來討論要不要調整那當然本席這邊也要想請教一下如果未來黃老師有機會進到考試院當任考試委員的話我有一個提案你聽聽看"},{"start":239.281,"end":264.452,"text":"基本概念沒有變就是CPI達成正負5%的時候要啟動相關的這個退休金的這個調整但是這個調整跟現在唯一的差別是什麼就現階段是達到5%之後要不要調整是由政府來決定要不要調整我的說法是達到正負的5%之後就應該強制啟動來調整我不知道黃老師對這樣的看法怎麼想"},{"start":265.236,"end":278.239,"text":"我想對於這個部分未來是可以評估來推動看看所以黃老師你願意支持說如果CPA物價指數有調整的話政府就應該啟動這個退休金的調整嗎"},{"start":279.141,"end":304.318,"text":"好 謝謝王老師那接下來我們要談到說這個全區部提到的一件事情就是如果現階段此刻如果停止退休所得替代預率逐年降低的話那這個年金所謂的這個基金用期的這個年份會從135年提前到131年我想問一下王老師對於這個全區部目前這個說法你的理解認同嗎還是說他有其他的部分沒有提到"},{"start":305.689,"end":322.226,"text":"我想這個全序部應該是有經過精算因為我們本來在這個年改之後本來是可以延到140年就是把它用光嘛但是因為年改薪資就從去年"},{"start":323.227,"end":350.676,"text":"開始所謂的確定提撥制開始實施之後新進的這些同仁的這個扣角的部分就沒有放到這個大水庫所以因為這樣的關係所以提前到135年那在經過精算之後如果現在就停止所得替代率的遞減那可能會就再往前提早4年就會破產這個是我的理解"},{"start":351.381,"end":380.215,"text":"黃老師你剛剛提到一個很重要的一個數字一個年份叫民國140年你可以參考一下我在這個資料上提供給您的這個140年就是現階段的政策如果政府有按時有按金額有按照精算報告撥補公務預算的話的確基金可以到140年如果完全不撥補到135年所以全區部講說如果現階段我開始停止調降所的替代率"},{"start":380.735,"end":396.53,"text":"年金這個基金會提早到131年用盡這個說法我覺得他有點欺騙我今天提出來是希望如果黃老師你有機會擔任考試委員的話對於全區部提供給立法院的報告他應該要更精確的說明不應該用這種標題"},{"start":398.992,"end":413.851,"text":"這個資訊不對稱的情況去講這個就像我剛剛陳述的他自己在報告裡面講說如果現在停止調降的話會從135提早到131但問題是那個是完全不撥補的完全沒有用公務預算沒有用撥補的情況下他才會從135開始算"},{"start":415.433,"end":434.284,"text":"按照政府的現階段的做法其實本來就會撥補但撥補的話應該從140年開始算140年開始算跟從135年開始算的話光這件事情就差了五年了所以計算基準就不一樣所以這我提出來第一件事情也是希望說未來如果您有機會擔任考試委員這個數字要提醒你"},{"start":434.804,"end":460.678,"text":"你要提醒全區部部長不要這樣子信口開口亂講話那接下來我們看到這個黃老師過去針對退府基金財務問題的時候你也提過說如果我有誤會你的意思的話你要糾正我你有提過說這個要強化退府基金收益與挹注機制那提高基金的投資績效跟穩定的政府預算撥補這個是不是你過去的立場是嗎我想是的"},{"start":461.687,"end":466.015,"text":"好既然是齁那我要提醒這個我們這個黃老師如果未來擔任考試委員你看一下"},{"start":467.657,"end":479.322,"text":"到目前為止2024年這個缺口大概是317億那2024年實際要撥補的這個金額只有100億換句話說還有217億還沒有撥補那再來如果合計到2025年的話也是一樣2025年公務員120億教師其實行政院只願意編194億所以2024跟2025"},{"start":494.448,"end":520.758,"text":"合起來的話他等於總共大砍了340億就是說政府試算出來考試院試算出來的結果有這麼多錢但是政府只願意今年給2024給1002025給194不夠了部分340所以我要問的是說面對行政院這樣子的態度未來如果你擔任考試委員你要用什麼樣的立場來面對這件事情"},{"start":521.687,"end":543.772,"text":"當然我覺得政府應該要負年金的支付的最後的保證的責任所以未來如果有機會到考試院我們會全力的來跟其他的這個部會來把這個資金就是撥補的部分能夠盡量把它提高"},{"start":546.635,"end":564.43,"text":"好 謝謝黃貝提名的回應的確如果你這個態度的話我個人表示認同就是說該撥補的政府該撥補本來就該撥補因為這涉及到真正的公平正義為什麼要這樣講因為這是第一個我們還是要講我很年輕沒錯我們家也沒有人當公務員但這是公平正義的問題"},{"start":566.42,"end":584.293,"text":"當初這一群已經退休這一群人他們當初來報考公務員本來就對這個所謂退休金或對退休生活他一定有自己的算法跟自己的期待那是政府以自己講說的財政不足所以違反當初承諾去打壓軍工教育那污名化那再提到撥補的問題剛剛提到這個足額撥補的問題"},{"start":587.586,"end":601.219,"text":"這個我們前勞動部部長何佩珊提過啊這個撥補也是有改革的一部分因為如果按照如果勞退跟這個公教人員的退伏基金要一樣的計算方式的話那我想勞退基金一定也不夠"},{"start":602.099,"end":622.729,"text":"那不夠怎麼辦就靠政府的預算來撥補來負最後的這個責任那同樣的概念如果今天勞動員可以這樣做我認為公教的這個退休基金理論上也應該可以這樣做這就回到我剛剛提到的嘛如果今天你作為考試委員如果行政院不願意撥組的話那考試的立場是不是應該要來極力爭取那我覺得"},{"start":624.213,"end":646.842,"text":"當然說之前提到議後條例在議後那時候有個特別預算大家都補了就偏偏台電也補了勞保也補了勞退也補了就偏偏公教的這部分沒有補所以我想這個是差別待遇啦所以我希望你擔任考試委員的話應該要站在保障公務人員的立場讓這些人他奉獻一輩子給政府"},{"start":648.059,"end":674.185,"text":"那奉獻被給政府計畫退休生活還要看政府臉色所以回到我剛剛提到的如果CPI指數調整百分之五如果真的調整百分之五我想對我們在座所有的生活影響會非常非常大那我們還有能力做新的工作嘛或是我們可能去有別的盈利的方式但是這些退休的公務人員他可能他就沒有辦法啦所以說我想退休公務人員他的生活保障應該是政府的責任你認同嗎當然認同所以未來會積極爭取"},{"start":676.548,"end":705.525,"text":"所以在這個議題上面我在最後跟這個我們這個黃北提名人確認幾個立場所以您支持的是說如果CPI物價指數有調整的話就應該強制啟動直接啟動所謂退休金的調整嗎是的我想因為您知道考試院是一個合一制以我個人力量我會努力去爭取"},{"start":706.24,"end":728.892,"text":"好那再來就是說如果行政院持續不願意不願意撥補足夠的預算給所謂的退休基金站在考試委的立場你也願意去爭取嗎是的是嗎是的好那最後一個您認為現階段的這個公務人員的所得替代率調降你支持還是反對"},{"start":729.872,"end":755.332,"text":"我覺得這個要審慎就是我們要考慮到基金的永續性還有各個不同的族群的公平性所以我覺得這個是可以討論好 謝謝黃貝提名的說法那接下來我們進到這個大家也很關心的所謂霸凌的問題我想這個考試委員最重要職責是選才、育才、用才跟留才嘛那我想當然近期不只勞動部這個勞分署有這個大職場霸凌"},{"start":758.835,"end":776.414,"text":"各部會陸陸續續都傳出﹐大大小小情勢不一的霸凌事件那在過去的這段時間﹐立法院跟行政院之間的執訊裡面﹐包括我們提到所發現一件事情現階段公務人員的這個保障﹐在霸凌這個事情上面﹐他是沒有專法的"},{"start":776.974,"end":789.632,"text":"那他的主管機關其實也不是勞動部因為勞動部管的是所謂職業安全衛生法裡面是屬於勞工的部分但對於公務人員他的保障理論上是放在考試院這邊我們要問的是說"},{"start":791.127,"end":807.352,"text":"在後續你看到現階段這個東西這個不是考試這個是行政人事總署提供的員工職場霸凌的處理流程的問題但我想問一下如果今天您擔任這考試委員的話對於公務人員的職場霸凌你願不願意請考試院提出相關的專法"},{"start":808.803,"end":829.533,"text":"就像勞工有職業安全衛生法等等這樣子的法例來保障所謂公務人員在職場面對霸凌他的法律要件因為我想這幾次事件尤其以這個勞動部這一次的這個遺憾來講的話他第一份監察報告他有一個很核心的概念他說是因為沒有因果關係我不能證明我咆哮你"},{"start":830.543,"end":848.22,"text":"我霸淚你所以導致你的這個自殺所以沒有成立一個關係所以他第一份的報告說他沒有這個責任那當然現在輿論壓力來了他們要重新做報告只是報告還沒做出來我也不知道結果長怎麼樣但是我們要回到這個議題本身回到結構本身如果今天擔任考試委員的話"},{"start":849.931,"end":871.793,"text":"對於職場霸凌那如果導致我們公務人員不管是死亡也好受傷也好或身心靈的問題也好這件事情是不是應該把立法立起來我想這個是考試院不能夠逃避的職責那當然在過去這一個多禮拜裡面的一些詢答我們看到"},{"start":873.435,"end":899.911,"text":"院長被提名已經有提到下個會期會用最快的速度去修改目前公務人員保障法還有安慰辦法甚至我們在其他的場合裡面我們的全區部長他也提出要針對考機的部分要把霸凌的這些行為列進來作為一個依據"},{"start":901.111,"end":927.913,"text":"那剛剛那個委員所提到的專法的部分或許可以是一個選項但是這個都可能要再比較審慎的去做評估但是謝謝委員提出這樣的問題因為這個從現階段的所提供給你的表格目前看起來這救濟程序的部分行政總署的最後救濟程序是要申訴成立的與否的決定是要依公務人員保障法來提起救濟"},{"start":929.454,"end":953.907,"text":"這個相關的主管機關當然是在考試院的公務員保訓會我們再看一個數據公務員保訓會從109年起受理職場霸凌的案件統計到112年10月去年的10月我手上數字到10月而已共計40件最後結果怎麼樣呢就目前為止有4件不受理、32件駁回、4件撤銷"},{"start":955.1,"end":961.178,"text":"所以聽起來怎麼樣就是109年到112年10月40屆裡面其實沒有一件成功的"},{"start":962.245,"end":990.439,"text":"這是很可怕的事情這可能是要看徵送的提出者是機關還是個人所以這些資料其實都蠻珍貴所以未來如果在整個修法的過程裡面我們可能就是要把這些個人拿來做分析比如說看看有哪些的樣態那怎麼樣把它規範到我們的這個保障法或者安慰辦法裡面那據我的了解目前治安署那邊已經有提供了大概15種的"},{"start":992.02,"end":994.701,"text":"Iwan Nawi Iwan Nawi"},{"start":1017.749,"end":1036.383,"text":"頂著長官的壓力面對升遷的考可能不過等等的壓力他勇敢的去面對這個體制他跟上級機關申訴一定是沒有結果的應該說他就是因為沒有結果之後他才會去尋求剛剛我提到的人事協定總組那整個流程走到最後就是要往保續會找"},{"start":1037.768,"end":1064.956,"text":"當我在行政部院的這個體系裡面我找不到之後我去保訓會去考試院找人能夠來幫我主持公道但在按照我這個數字來講這40件卻沒有一件成案這表示這保訓會對於工人的保障我覺得是一定有一定程度的瑕疵啦那不然如果沒事我沒有必要跑去保訓會按照程序我也不能直接跳過正常的行政系統去保訓會嘛"},{"start":1065.66,"end":1087.811,"text":"我一定是在內部的救濟我達不到或是我沒辦法成功的申訴我才會去保訓會所以理論上保訓會應該會是剛剛提到如果今天你要去去到考試院裡面保障公務員的話保訓會理論上應該才是公務人員最後的保障的這個單位那如果按照往年的這個數字40間都沒有成立的話你不覺得這中間有點奇怪吧"},{"start":1088.815,"end":1110.934,"text":"我想這個謝謝委員的提示那這個部分我會再去了解就從這些個案裡面去看看過去的案件的內涵到底有哪些可以作為未來修法的參考不過那個剛剛委員所提到的對公務人員的保障的這個方向我們是一定要努力去做的這是考試院責無旁貸的責任"},{"start":1112.234,"end":1134.885,"text":"因為這個保障問題我想剛好也要接下來提到的是所謂公務人員今年報考人數我想近十年來這公務人員報考的考試人數從99年的53萬人到去年只剩下19萬人但是需用人數並沒有改變就是說每年提出來的需求還是那個比例但是報考人數這個持續降低我想第一個當然除了嫂子女花之外"},{"start":1135.825,"end":1162.688,"text":"哪些原因你認為如果你進考試院單人考試委員的話哪些原因有什麼辦法能夠提升公務人員考試的這個比例有更多原因投入公職因為當然第一個我多講一遍包含說這個退休金制度的改革我想也是影響現階段年輕人他不願意進來因為我既然當公務人員跟我在業界企業界上班其實他的退休保障制度是一樣的那不知道你單人考試委的話有什麼樣的方式能夠提升我們國家公務員考試的這個報考人數"},{"start":1165.335,"end":1179.625,"text":"謝謝我想原因有很多除了剛剛講到的少子女化之外我想最近民間的景氣非常好所以我們從比較長期的角度去看它其實是會有一些的循環"},{"start":1180.505,"end":1201.546,"text":"那當然剛剛委員所提到的現在在公部門裡面的一些的勞動的條件或者是因為有些事件的報導那對於這個整個公部門的形象可能也多多少少會有一些影響那這個我想是未來可以再做一些努力比如說"},{"start":1202.587,"end":1203.608,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":1232.133,"end":1232.494,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝黃委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}