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張教授"},{"start":1910.899,"end":1927.818,"text":"再來是來自國立臺北大學公共行政暨政策學系的紀俊成紀教授歡迎您接下來是國家政策研究基金會的李嘉維副研究員歡迎您"},{"start":1929.502,"end":1957.353,"text":"以及來自益謙法律事務所的林俊宏林律師歡迎您謝謝接下來我們介紹列席的政府機關代表首先介紹我們立法院張玉榮副秘書長歡迎您我們接下來介紹法務部蔡碧仲政務次長歡迎您接下來是來自大陸委員會梁文傑副主任委員歡迎您"},{"start":1959.502,"end":1986.812,"text":"接下來是總統府第一局蘇俊卿專門委員歡迎您接下來是司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳陳一一廳長歡迎您接下來是行政院綜合業務處的彭少博處長歡迎您以及外交國防法務處的張文豪參議員歡迎您以及法規會的薛宇順科長歡迎您"},{"start":1989.229,"end":2012.176,"text":"接下來是考試院保訓重規處我們的龜毅處長謝謝那來自內政部合作及人民團體司葉昭宏專門委員歡迎您接下來是外交部條約法律司黃仁良專門委員歡迎您"},{"start":2014.235,"end":2035.765,"text":"國防部法律事務司法紀調查處王秉峰副處長行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處賴嘉陽專門委員中央選舉委員會楊志傑人事室主任公平教育委員會法律事務處楊義昌副處長"},{"start":2038.976,"end":2063.86,"text":"接下來是國家通訊傳播委員會﹐法律事務處的蔡信怡專門委員﹐歡迎您接下來是個人資料保護委員會籌備處﹐查核規劃組﹐張玉玲組長﹐歡迎您接下來是不當黨產處理委員會的﹐林聰賢副主任委員﹐歡迎您接下來是國家安全局的秘書室﹐李副主任﹐歡迎您"},{"start":2065.779,"end":2077.691,"text":"好那接下來在場的有我們的介紹羅志強羅委員以及吳思堯委員歡迎您謝謝好那現在請議事委員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱"},{"start":2081.287,"end":2109.044,"text":"討論提綱一依據憲法權力分立與大法官釋憲意旨立法院雖在一定要件下得行使調查權但行政機關有行政特權尤其涉及國家安全或國家核心關鍵技術之秘密均因於保密在國會改革法案中因如何調適兩者必使國家安全利益與國家核心研發能力得以確保二在擴大立法委員調查權之時立法委員之倫理倫理準則及"},{"start":2111.085,"end":2124.716,"text":"自律規範是否應一併強化避免權責不相當如相關調查聽證涉及司部門相關法制應有何種配套措施避免侵害企業或科技之研發核心競爭力宣讀完畢"},{"start":2128.032,"end":2149.352,"text":"好今天我們根據昨天繼續進行公聽會那主要討論的是在最近朝野各政黨都提出了相關於國會改造的相關法案來強化國會權那其中關於要如何來落實國會的調查聽證權以有效的監督行政機關但在同時呢"},{"start":2151.625,"end":2174.204,"text":"強化權力的同時因為經過調查和預言機密那如何防範機密損及到國家利益我想這也是我們關切的議題所以今天邀請到的學者專家以及邀請列席的政府機關首長代表我們就是要針對在國會行使調查或聽證權的同時因為如此而得悉相關機密"},{"start":2175.245,"end":2198.661,"text":"不管是公務部門國家機密或是私人的營業秘密如何防止語文人員因而外洩損及包括私人人民的利益或者是國家的利益那就是我們今天聽證會的重點之一首先我們就進行程序的說明在邀請各位發言之前有幾點說明首先請學者專家先發言"},{"start":2199.441,"end":2216.489,"text":"發言順序依照簽到的先後順序如果需要提前發言請先告知主席台我們會視情況作為調整那本院委員我們按照登記先後順序發言如果在場委員要發言請先登記那麼如果陸續到場呢本席會安排穿插"},{"start":2217.45,"end":2226.464,"text":"委員發言政府機關代表發言學者專家及委員意見加以回應與會者請致發言臺發言"},{"start":2232.113,"end":2232.313,"text":"請陳鵬光律師發言"},{"start":2273.833,"end":2294.834,"text":"主席還有各位先進那針對今天的這樣的一個公聽會我想涉及到很重大的一個憲政議題那議題也很多那我想主要就幾個面向來說明那第一個就是說雖然提綱有講到國會的一個調查權跟聽證權但我想第一點我還想強調"},{"start":2296.175,"end":2321.042,"text":"在內閣制的一個國家他們會有所謂的一個立委的一個質詢的一個權利但在總統制的國家會有所謂聽證權而沒有所謂的一個執行權所以就這個質詢跟聽證應該要予以區別啦那雖然它交集的部分是有所謂的國會的一個調查權但我個人還是比較傾向於說在我國我們應該是有國會的一個調查權而這種"},{"start":2322.262,"end":2324.384,"text":"有好多號的一個大法官的解釋有做了一定程度的一個說明"},{"start":2338.533,"end":2354.983,"text":"但基本上可以知道的就是說這個國會調查權它所涉及的一個對象可能會有公部門也有可能會有私部門那公部門的部分有可能會涉及到這個憲政機關它的一個權力的一個核心領域所以必須遵守權力分立原則"},{"start":2355.723,"end":2381.866,"text":"那四部門的部分就會涉及到會侵害人民的一個基本權因為你傳喚一個比如說傳喚一個人民的話你要他到場這就有行動自由那你要他說明可能又會有表意自由那中間過程中還會涉及到隱私秘密甚至財產這個專利營業秘密等等的一個保護所以必須要符合這個權利侵害必須要符合這個包括比例原則正當法律程序等等那他所行使的方法"},{"start":2383.047,"end":2399.809,"text":"至少依照大法官它可以分成三個類型第一個是資料的提供第二個是文件的調閱第三個是可能是傳喚到場的說明那這三種的一個方式它侵害跟干預的程度其實是不同的那越強烈的話"},{"start":2400.45,"end":2400.73,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":2421.471,"end":2448.087,"text":"然後就這個憲法上的各種要求然後在專法裡面做比較細緻的一個規定那這樣的一個國會調查權它的發動它基本上是要獲取資訊然後來準備立法跟監督行政那在這樣的一個目的之下它的發動呢如果按照大法官的一個解釋它都必須要涉及到這個立法院的一個職權的一個行使"},{"start":2448.607,"end":2473.155,"text":"甚至在多號的大法官的解釋有提到它必須要是議案涉及的事項而且這個議案它有兩個要件第一個必須要跟立法院的行使憲法上職權有重大關聯第二個是這個議案必須要是屬於目的跟範圍都是明確的特定的議案"},{"start":2474.615,"end":2499.395,"text":"所以只有在這樣的一個特定明確的議案而且是有跟職權重大關聯的議案才能夠展開調查那在調查程序上也因此是強烈建議必須在相關的通知要去記載這個特定的議案它的目的跟範圍因為這樣才能夠去判斷立法院的職權行使是不是符合憲法上的一個要求"},{"start":2501.577,"end":2528.592,"text":"縱使是可以發動,他在發動的程序上還是有他一定的一個要件那他就包括說原則上呢他必須要是經過院會的一個決議那這個在大法官的這個相關解釋都有說明就文件的調閱跟證人的傳喚是必須要院會的決議那如果是就資料,參考資料的提供這個才可以例外由委員會來做決議就好那"},{"start":2529.292,"end":2537.642,"text":"也因此呢其實大法官他是有區分所謂的一個參考資料提供跟文件調閱還有傳喚證人那如果是要文件調閱跟傳喚證人不論是4-325號或4-585號他都有講是要必要時"},{"start":2544.75,"end":2568.368,"text":"那什麼叫做必要時呢 這個可能在解釋上 雖然有看到有些學者認為說是要公益必要作為他的要件但光靠這個是不是足夠 那我個人是比較存疑 我認為應該要達到非准許調閱文件或傳喚證人的那就不能或難以達到調查目的 完成調查違憲 要達到這樣的一個程度"},{"start":2569.068,"end":2592.851,"text":"那縱使是可以允許去做相關的調查那他也不能夠侵害這個其他國家機關受憲法保障的一個核心領域那這部分在4至585號講的就很清楚包括這個行政特權的部分像涉及國安、國防外交等等的一個機密事項那都不能夠去"},{"start":2594.012,"end":2608.695,"text":"與侵犯這部分其實是可以參考政府資訊公開法跟國家機密保護法的一個相關規定就人民的部分甚至其實也可能會涉及到公部門的部分就是會有所謂的拒絕提出文件跟拒絕證言的一個室友"},{"start":2609.156,"end":2635.054,"text":"那這邊不論是刑事訴訟法或民事訴訟法都有相關的一個規定可以來加以參考比如說就民事訴訟法也有規定如果是這個相關的陳述會足深財產上的直接損害比如說如果是營業秘密或專利等等那或受刑事的訴追不治證己罪或者關於這個職務上跟業務上有關的秘密義務這個都是可以拒絕證言的啦那在這個民事訴訟法344條"},{"start":2636.915,"end":2642.84,"text":"就文件的提出其實也有因為隱私或營業秘密涉及在內可以拒絕提出文書那這都是可以參考的那在調查的過程中呢如果有一定的必要這個詢問的話那就不當的詢問也是可以也應該可以予以異議跟制止那同時呢也要保障呢受重範人有權選慮選任這個法律上的一個輔佐人那至於程序的部分要不要公開"},{"start":2664.119,"end":2688.786,"text":"我是建議應該要區別公部門跟私部門的一個調查情況那公部門的部分也許比較有公開的一個必要但如果是涉及到私部門成為調查的一個對象的話原則上應該是以秘密進行為必要那在調查之後如果取得相關的這個資訊那這時候更應該也要加一定的這樣的一個維護它的一個秘密性那這個在4至7月9號有提到"},{"start":2690.086,"end":2706.858,"text":"那這部分其實也會涉及到就是說立法院在卷宗管理還有相關人員的一個守密義務可能都是有待要去加強啦那特別是如果涉及到國安或兩岸相關的一個關係或秘密的話那對於相關人員"},{"start":2707.839,"end":2728.775,"text":"是不是要比照這個密保令的部分要予以一定的一個加強它的守密義務同時就出入中國的部分是不是要予以一定的一個管制然後來修訂兩岸關係兩岸人民關係條例相關的一個規定因為我們可以想像比如說"},{"start":2729.315,"end":2729.555,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":2753.24,"end":2776.266,"text":"另外就這個不配合調查的一個處罰的部分在要件上可能必須要符合所謂的一個構成要件明確性的一個原則所以也許不到場拒絕答覆拒絕提出那要加一定的這個處罰這個要件是比較明確啦但是如果就所謂的答非所問實問虛答或者反問甚至用所謂的藐視國會這樣作為構成要件"},{"start":2778.627,"end":2795.163,"text":"可能在構成要件的明確性上也許就比較有它的一個問題那效果的部分大法官已經有說明他說就是說在經過院會決議的時候是可以予以在這個可以予以一定的一個行政的一個罰款"},{"start":2796.804,"end":2815.576,"text":"那因此這個處罰的一個權限應該是屬於立法院而且要經過院會的決議那應該不能夠是委有其他的單位來行使那我認為也不應該委有行政法院來裁定罰款那一方面因為這不是屬於行政法院的權限二方面如果由行政法院自己來裁罰"},{"start":2816.417,"end":2844.596,"text":"那到時候要救濟那到底誰要當作所謂的原告救濟的對象這都是問題那另外呢在處罰上也不能夠做不能夠採用刑法為這個強制手段那這個在4至585號其實解釋的理由有說得很清楚他說立法院行使調查權所附屬的這個強制權利應以科處罰緩為限所以如果從大法官的文字來看這邊應該是比較沒有如學者所講的還有討論的空間"},{"start":2847.438,"end":2872.378,"text":"舊紀的一個部分可能也要是區別他調查的對象是公部門或私部門而定公部門也許會有這個總統的院紀調解乃至於說必要的話要到憲法法庭這個是機關爭議訴訟的一個案件那在私部門的部分可能要到法院由法院來審理那在整個審理的過程中一樣要注意秘密的一個維護那這部分我想相對的法院是有經驗的因為我們"},{"start":2874.259,"end":2900.394,"text":"包括這個治審法 傷審法都有相關的秘密保持令的一個規定可以加以施用 謝謝好 非常謝謝我們陳律師的發言接下來有請羅志強委員發言 謝謝主席以及我們今天與會的專家學者其實這幾場的公聽會"},{"start":2902.982,"end":2922.182,"text":"我幾乎全程都有在聽大家的發言所以學習收穫也非常多這幾天的公聽會其實我自己有一個感受就是國會改革尤其是聽證調查的建立以及藐視國會罪的立法其實有三大好處"},{"start":2923.343,"end":2944.973,"text":"第一個就是可以讓官員不敢也不能說謊首先我要跟各位說明一下就是擔任立法委員這兩個月來的心得坦白講我覺得過去我們的立法院對於所謂的立法權 立法的調查權其實是相當的怠惰的"},{"start":2945.663,"end":2972.987,"text":"那使得在我們在跟官員不管在索取資訊然後甚至在質詢的過程當中其實立法委員比我想像的落實得多得多為什麼因為很簡單以現在我們現行體制我跟行政機關調資料就是看行政機關的良心他要不要給你他我想要的資料看他高興他有一百種方式來去敷衍或是拖延提供給你的資料"},{"start":2973.627,"end":2986.782,"text":"甚至在備詢台上或是在我們跟官員在質詢網附過過去你也看到有一些包括甚至最嚴重到說謊的情形都曾經發生過可是回頭一句話請問說謊又怎麼樣請問不提供資料怎麼樣"},{"start":2991.007,"end":3008.558,"text":"請問今天提供你的虛擬掩飾的資料又怎麼樣答案是 真的不能怎麼樣嘛所以我們的林志傑教授三場公聽會我都有看到您我覺得至少一個共識可以達成啦就你也不贊成官員可以說謊嘛但是我覺得不贊成官員可以說謊可以更進一步"},{"start":3009.238,"end":3024.203,"text":"就是不讓官員可以說謊就必須有約束的制度不管你要是行政法還是刑事法可以討論但是如果沒有約束官員的制度那我講白了說不說謊就是他良心失業所以如果"},{"start":3025.063,"end":3042.071,"text":"今天我們反對今天制定約束官員說謊的制度那跟支持官員說謊到底差別在哪裡我不知道所以今天我講的第一件事情就是讓官員不敢也不能說謊你才能夠落實今天立法委員問政最基本的核心職權嘛"},{"start":3045.394,"end":3062.014,"text":"補充幾個概念有些是把所謂的國會聽證調查跟刑事訴訟來做類比我覺得類比是有些問題但也有些可以參照第一個 講被告不自證己罪抱歉 被告不自證己罪不等於被告可以在法庭上說謊"},{"start":3063.455,"end":3091.621,"text":"行事訴訟時務被告若在法庭上說謊是可以構成法官認為他犯後態度不佳然後虛擬掩飾變成他的量刑的一個判斷所以被告不自證己罪一樣會在法官的量刑過程當中予以考量你被告面對犯罪後的態度那第二個被告不自證己罪為什麼不能夠做一個類比很簡單因為官員跟相關人士在聽證調查來到國會他不是被告啊"},{"start":3092.541,"end":3111.02,"text":"他是來為公共政策公共利益為立法跟預算相關事項立法權在行使的過程當中來這裡為證言所以怎麼會是被告呢所以這個類比我覺得是不成立的那另外有講到說在刑事訴訟體系之下證人也可以拒絕證言 是的"},{"start":3111.661,"end":3131.591,"text":"政人是原則上必須證言但例外的符合某些條件是可以拒絕證言但是拒絕證言前的行使不等於政人拒絕願意作證之後可以在所謂的法庭上說謊因為如果這樣的話就構成偽證罪同樣的體系體力是可以在國會聽證調查裡面一樣可以來去實現的那第二個好處就是可以落實國會的憲政職權"},{"start":3139.795,"end":3156.016,"text":"我剛前面講就是說今天土法不足以自行啦憲法規定立法委員有監督政府有立法權有所謂的預算的審查權等等的權利但是如果今天不能夠賦予相當的強制力就會變成"},{"start":3157.077,"end":3161.16,"text":"陳其邁過去在主張國會聽證調查曾經說過如果沒有我們沒有聽證調查體系我們只要立法委員就是無牙的老虎根本沒辦法貫徹到憲政職權這樣的一個主張現在我們的準行政院副院長鄭玉君也提到過"},{"start":3177.432,"end":3206.652,"text":"所以換言之今天國會聽證調查以及藐視國會的建立是來彌補過去立法院的一個很大的一個缺漏最後我覺得我們如果能夠今天好好立法事實上可以實現賴清德、鄭麗君、陳其邁、柯建民、林佳龍、蔡同榮等等民進黨的前輩們過去心心念念的國會改革心心念念的聽證調查心心念念的藐視國會罪希望我們這一次不分黨派一起來實現國會改革以上謝謝"},{"start":3208.055,"end":3212.132,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員接下來有請林智傑教授發言"},{"start":3219.815,"end":3246.566,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員各位先進各位幕僚同仁大家早安大家好太可惜了羅委員走了他終於還我清白說他聽了三場仔細聆聽我真的沒有講過官員可以說謊那他現在來澄清這個有什麼用呢因為他已經在臉書跟引發整個媒體包括TikTok的假訊息假攻擊這裡就回到我們剛剛的議題裡面重要的一欄叫做權責如何相當"},{"start":3247.466,"end":3271.764,"text":"我可以告羅委員嗎 恐怕沒有辦法因為在公聽會裡面 立法委員的言論具有言論免責權但是我們要講的是 你的言論免責權緊急於在你的議會場內所以如果離開議會以後 你在臉書上發表不實的言論或者是你洩露談論重要的 不應該外洩的機密事實上立法委員依然應該要負擔一定的法律責任"},{"start":3272.444,"end":3292.597,"text":"所以簡單講為什麼今天我們在談國會改革的時候必須要有一個周全的配套措施姑且不論剛剛羅委員對於被告跟證人的整個概念跟刑事訴訟法的理解有錯誤因為證人的拒絕證言權 裡面也有很大一部分是不自證己罪的特權"},{"start":3293.397,"end":3309.125,"text":"因為證人在詢問的過程裏面跟本案的關係往往錯綜複雜非常可能一開始以證人的身份傳喚但當他言說之後發現原來具有犯罪的嫌疑導致今天證人轉被告"},{"start":3309.725,"end":3339.385,"text":"所以如果能夠熟悉法律的操作多讀一點書我相信他一定能夠理解今天如果把調查權擴大到私人那麼非常有可能我以證人的身份來傳喚你聽證跟調查事後從你的言說之中發現有問題立刻把你用藐視國會或者是不實的言論來加以可處第二個要講的是民進黨有心心念念藐視國會罪嗎?並沒有各位可以去看過去的草案"},{"start":3340.105,"end":3340.125,"text":"公聽會"},{"start":3370.145,"end":3385.074,"text":"但是這個調查不應該急於企業跟私人企業跟私人可以協助你調查與公務和行政監督有關的事項但不可以成為你調查的課題或者完全與公務無關的事項"},{"start":3386.354,"end":3399.399,"text":"但是當然這個如何界定必須要非常的謹慎比如說臺積電到熊本去設廠請問這到底與行政權的相關聯度有或是沒有因為政府也許給予一定的補貼跟幫忙"},{"start":3400.999,"end":3422.531,"text":"你一定要說它跟政府的部門有關好像也不是正因為這樣才有我們今天公聽會也就是說倘若今天已經擴大到私人企業跟私人的團體有義務來協助你調查你就必須確保在這個調查過程裡面不去侵犯私人跟企業相關的基本權利"},{"start":3423.892,"end":3438.948,"text":"那這裡就要提到如何不去侵犯如何避免在這個過程中立法委員作出以言論免責權為保護傘不願意負責任卻又侵害他人人權的行為呢第一個我要講的就是權責必須相當美國有藐視國會罪"},{"start":3443.032,"end":3459.84,"text":"但是美國對議員的要求跟倫理規範非常的多我們可以Google一下2023年12月被驅逐出美國國會的Sandoz他的情況就是認為被有倫理規範的違反所以直接國會可以做出哪些呢"},{"start":3460.76,"end":3485.387,"text":"他的倫理委員會可以要求國會議員道歉﹖罰款﹖停權﹖限制出席會議﹖公開譴責﹖甚至驅逐出會﹖褫奪國會議員的身份哇好想有這樣子的一個權利喔我就可以來申訴羅委員跟劉委員對我在網路上面的不實指控可惜我們目前立法委員行違法對相關的規範復之缺乳"},{"start":3487.387,"end":3500.442,"text":"各位想一下 面對有犯罪嫌疑的司法我們在司法程序裡面對法官跟檢察官要求何其嚴格我們有法官法 我們有法官倫理規範我們有法官評鑑委員會 我們有檢察官評鑑委員會"},{"start":3504.907,"end":3532.16,"text":"任何人如果認為有問題都可以來提出要求評鑑法官檢察官在這麼嚴格的自律跟懲戒規範下我們尚且沒有辦法定定藐視司法罪你立法院何德何能你的相關倫理規範復之缺乳行為法如此軟弱竟然要定藐視國會罪在此同時難道不可能以這樣子的罪來勒索企業"},{"start":3532.72,"end":3548.451,"text":"威脅私人甚至造成重要的企業營業秘密外洩或者是理通敵國想辦法把這種企業或者是重要的國家核心關鍵機密利用調查的情況來得知洩露給我們的敵對勢力嗎"},{"start":3551.261,"end":3570.97,"text":"二、兩岸條例及國安法都有規範知曉秘密的人在出境管制或附中管制上的要求如果今天你的調查範圍如此廣泛你的相關知曉秘密的人的管制"},{"start":3572.29,"end":3599.827,"text":"物的管制資訊的管制是不是要更加的強化我還看到這個草案裡面有一個條文他說我如果自己沒有能力調查我還可以違給有能力的機關來調查哇賽 這真是不得了了所以立法院還可以違給觸同黨來調查請問一下如果你委任其他的機構來調查這個被你委任的機關它是不是具有相關的專業性"},{"start":3602.322,"end":3617.353,"text":"這些委任的機關是不是應該也要遵守一定的保密協定這些接觸到國防或者是企業關鍵機密資訊的人員需不需要遵守如同我們智慧財產法院審理法"},{"start":3618.314,"end":3637.944,"text":"或者是我們營業秘密法裡面的秘密保持令的要求你相關的配套措施一個字都沒有竟然只要求不配合以及被你說謊的人民就立刻要處以藐視國會罪這種權責不相當的草案也是令人開了眼界"},{"start":3640.528,"end":3649.666,"text":"大法官釋字435號解釋曾經說原則上我們尊重國會因為他有言論免責權他必須要監督行政審議預算"},{"start":3651.465,"end":3668.818,"text":"但不代表司法機關完全對於國會議員的言行不能介入所以435有說司法機關於必要時亦得真審這代表什麼這代表你立法院自己的行為法裡面必須定出明確的倫理準則"},{"start":3670.459,"end":3688.254,"text":"立法委員你不是在那個制外法權現在想成說你做任何的事情都是你最大然後你永遠不會侵害別人完全不是這樣所以我個人為什麼在今天的提綱中我覺得主席跟這個會會這個委員會你的非常好特別提到權責相當跟倫理規範的要求"},{"start":3692.117,"end":3716.867,"text":"因此首先第一個我們必須要要求立法委員在做所有的調查行為中不得將人民跟私部門作為調查的課題與人民跟私部門被你要求前來配合調查的時候除了言論免責權所行使的範圍立法委員本身需有高度的自律以及相關的倫理規範"},{"start":3718.618,"end":3718.638,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3737.726,"end":3752.275,"text":"過去參與營業秘密法跟國家安全法核心關鍵技術的修法我要講的是很多時候公部門會不小心或者是被利用成為企業不公平競爭的打手"},{"start":3753.255,"end":3766.62,"text":"這個在關鍵機敏事項尤其如此比如說A企業他跟B企業處於競爭關係他想要取得B企業的重要核心秘密他的做法就是去檢舉B企業竊取了A的營業秘密"},{"start":3770.56,"end":3795.89,"text":"在調查過程中他跟檢察官說我不知道他到底偷了什麼我要看他的東西我才知道偷了什麼B企業非常傻眼他說那這樣我家的機密不是被你看光了嗎請問各位今天你要擴大調查到人民公司團體你如何避免自己立法院介入企業經營權或研發競爭的關係之中避免自己成為企業的打手"},{"start":3796.946,"end":3798.547,"text":"好 謝謝我們林智傑教授接下來有請黃士傑律師發言請"},{"start":3834.468,"end":3860.102,"text":"好謝謝主席我們與會的各位學者專家我們所有的列席的官員立法院的同仁以及所有的媒體以及我所有關心國會改革以及這個聽國會的調查聽證權如何能夠有效的來行使但是又不可以避免侵害這個人民的權利我想這個是我們今天非常非常關鍵的一個題目那麼剛才我聽了羅志強委員的這個一番話之後"},{"start":3863.084,"end":3889.245,"text":"其實我覺得非常的混亂也就是說我覺得好像我們在假設我們今天要在立法院來進行一個聽證的程序或者是他來調查的時候我們邀請來的人到底是什麼樣的身份我們行使這個權利是在什麼樣的範圍內什麼樣的條件下然後我們行使的這個權利作用會有什麼樣的法律效果"},{"start":3890.441,"end":3916.267,"text":"然後藉此來界定我們邀請來的對象到底他負有多大的責任跟義務來配合然後我們才可以去思考說他如果不配合的時候要用什麼樣的法律效果來制裁所以走到最後一步的所謂的藐視國會或者說拒絕配合的這個法律效果之前有這麼多的前提問題應該要先來釐清"},{"start":3919.349,"end":3933.821,"text":"也就是說昨天這個楊志傑教授他在說了這個講述這個聽證權的時候呢他其實經常不斷的把這個hearing逼你為一個法庭"},{"start":3935.049,"end":3961.746,"text":"也確實我們現在所謂的聽證程序跟所謂俗稱的公聽會有什麼區別呢事實上很多就是是不是更接近這個法庭的審理程序也就是說不管是這個文件這個調查或者是參與的人他到底是在作證還是在表達意見還是只是來表達他的訴求到底他的身份是什麼"},{"start":3962.626,"end":3986.549,"text":"所以我印象中之前我們行政程序法訂立之後關於行政的聽證程序為了做出某一個行政處分或者是某一種特定的行政行為的需要甚至為了這個都市計畫訂立等等的要舉辦聽證的時候還需要去特地的訓練一批聽證的主持人"},{"start":3987.65,"end":4002.043,"text":"才不會讓這個聽證程序進行不下去或是混亂昨天我們這個羅傳賢前局長他也特地提到他也去受過這些訓練甚至參與過地方政府邀請他所舉辦的這個行政聽證程序"},{"start":4003.291,"end":4025.836,"text":"我們如果把這些問題起來思考比你假設今天立法院在行使立法權的時候不管是要行使的是同意權或者是為了質詢某些事項的需要他想要瞭解事情的真相所以他來舉辦這個聽證程序我們相關的這些前提的問題"},{"start":4027.366,"end":4038.833,"text":"以及我們負責主持這個聽證程序的合適立法委員或他委託之人有沒有相關的規範跟相關的訓練可以依循"},{"start":4042.316,"end":4070.098,"text":"這跟今天的題目很有關係我們要如何去避免今天我們的提綱所提到的這些不管是機密的外洩影響國安或者是昨天所講到的人民的權利受到侵害隱私等等的是要仰賴我們實際在進行的過程裡面有這樣子的一個確保我最後還舉了一些例子剛剛我們這個林志傑教授有提到事實上我們的立法委員"},{"start":4071.144,"end":4094.236,"text":"基於他是一個政治人物基於他社會這個接觸行為的需要他的交往關係非常的複雜對不對我們可以看到前一陣子立法委員可以透過這個行政機關監督監理單位的機關的官員去邀請受監理單位"},{"start":4098.574,"end":4122.771,"text":"的董事長們來參敘然後不斷地公開被揭露之後說我們只是想要多認識多了解一下業務如果類似的行為發生在法官或檢察官的身上我們社會的觀感是如何幾年前臺南的富商翁茂忠"},{"start":4124.11,"end":4124.71,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4146.293,"end":4165.968,"text":"這個質疑的非常嚴重認為這樣的行為造成司法的這個可以說皇后的徵抄被懷疑的那我們的立法院每天都在跟這個社會上的各行各業的人士來往那你又有這種發動的條件"},{"start":4170.065,"end":4193.528,"text":"不明確 調查的範圍不明確然後也沒有任何的倫理規範沒有任何的事後制裁的效果這樣子的權力 廣泛的權力賦予立法權的時候是不是真的很有可能會有今天提綱所說的這些事項有可能會發生"},{"start":4195.282,"end":4221.297,"text":"所以我是真的非常的憂心也非常高度的懷疑我們的國人台灣的社會是不是真的認為說目前我們的草案所顯示出來的這樣子的一個廣泛的權利真的是我們要賦予給立法權的嗎更何況不斷的反覆回來提到權力分立的界限同一件事情假設"},{"start":4223.011,"end":4230.773,"text":"這個司法機關或是監察機關他也有調查的憲法上的責任和義務的時候立法權行使的界限到哪裡"},{"start":4232.185,"end":4261.119,"text":"因為調查是一個非常空泛的今天我們雖然不斷地說要跟立法權的憲法律所賦予他的權力密接關係的才可以行事但是我們可以知道光質詢權這一項他就是包山包海我們站在這裡尋答的過程什麼都可以問那問的對象如果還從政府官員擴及到所謂的私人的時候到底是"},{"start":4262.419,"end":4289.844,"text":"這個私人如果認為說我跟你要問的事也沒關係為什麼你要叫我他能夠拒絕的範圍到哪裡我覺得這一些東西我現在看到目前的查案裡面感覺都不是很明確就像你要動用這個強制力的時候他的前提竟然只是我們有決議就可以了沒有實質的法律的要件跟這個規範後面的救濟的程序在哪裡"},{"start":4291.251,"end":4314.814,"text":"所以我們是認為說目前的這個法案如果只是在職權形式裡面修個幾條顯然不足以承擔我們剛剛所說的你的權責相符你的制度設計的配套你在一個什麼樣的框架底下可以做什麼樣的事情甚至先決的這個訓練跟這個主持會議主持聽證的這個能力我覺得都付諸缺乳"},{"start":4315.839,"end":4326.124,"text":"所以我非常贊同說剛剛陳律師講我是這樣 這三天我一直講我們應該要一個更完整的專法去把我們所發現提出來的種種的問題"},{"start":4327.714,"end":4352.771,"text":"都把它釐清了就好像法院要開庭他有一部完整的訴訟法他所審理的對象他有一部完整的實體法不管是民法刑法他搭配的訴訟法有這樣子的一個比較明確完整的這樣的規範體系我們的調查權才不會變成是雖然有了牙齒但是可能這個老虎會亂咬人"},{"start":4353.351,"end":4354.632,"text":"臺灣科技法學會 劉尚志理事長"},{"start":4395.883,"end":4419.37,"text":"主席及各位先進大家好我今天的報告是比較偏向於跟企業有關的營業秘密方面因為長久以來我們在科學園區旁邊生活了很久科技法學會通常處理的也是跟科技發展還有企業發展有關的核心競爭力所以今天我想我的觀點會比較偏向於"},{"start":4422.311,"end":4422.591,"text":"銀葉秘密的保護"},{"start":4445.757,"end":4462.353,"text":"我們昨天聽到有一位先進提到國家必要的時候可以沒收人民的專利權可以沒收人民的隱隱秘密通通揭露我想我們是民主國家通常似乎不適於拿中共的方式來類比我們國家有這麼大的權力"},{"start":4463.774,"end":4490.311,"text":"這是我們第一個民主國家的人民的財產權的維護是憲法裡面所公然保障的一之一現在我們所講的跟智慧財產權相關的專利營業秘密著作商標就科技方面來講當然是專利跟營業秘密比較重要但是如果我們知道一般在台灣的科技業界或是台灣的整個競爭力是以製造為主的"},{"start":4490.831,"end":4500.657,"text":"所以就法律的保護要件來講的話其實營業秘密的保護比較更為廣泛所以各位可能聽過臺積電說過他今天的無形資產90%是營業秘密10%是專利所以以公開的資訊來講這個專利是公開的資訊營業秘密基本上是不公開那營業秘密不公開的時候他又分兩種"},{"start":4515.947,"end":4516.087,"text":"技術性資訊非技術性資訊"},{"start":4534.388,"end":4557.578,"text":"包括商業的機密包括一般的他跟誰有合資的行為或是他投資了哪些東西呢像這些東西都是也是屬於營業秘密的範疇之一所以我們看到營業秘密通常它有三個要件第一個當然就是秘密性第二個就是經濟價值第三個合理的保密措施但就我們實務上來說各位知道這個"},{"start":4559.038,"end":4582.905,"text":"臺灣過去發展了有好幾百個每一年的到好幾百件的這個營業秘密的案件在法院審理那法院的審理相對成了困難我相信檢調機關在處理的時候也有高度的困難其中很重要一個因素就是這營業秘密要構成營業秘密它在整個措施上要非常要求非常的嚴格第一個它一定要有制度它要公司裡面有這樣的相關的辦法"},{"start":4584.025,"end":4584.245,"text":"人員培訓：資訊安全"},{"start":4603.968,"end":4631.159,"text":"他一定要有合理的資訊安全的保護他還可以說合理的保密措施他對於空間的管理誰可以進去某些空間才可以誰不能進去哪些空間有權責的在什麼時候才可以下載資料還可以影印資料像這些所謂的這個合理的保密措施就企業的這個影印保護來講的話已經是很高的成本了所以企業願意做這樣的事情相對於就對他的資訊的重要性是很夠的"},{"start":4632.439,"end":4650.951,"text":"第三個我們來看一下我們今天所談到的國家安全我們看國家安全法裡面關於所保護的標的核心就是國家核心關鍵技術之隱滅秘密我們這一條不客氣的說基本上是抄襲美國或模仿美國的經濟間諜法而來的"},{"start":4653.152,"end":4669.638,"text":"但美國經濟電話比我們好的地方﹖或者在執行力比較強的地方﹖它只要是營業秘密就可以了它是不是國家核心關鍵技術無關只要今天來取得這個營業秘密的資訊是跟外國政府相關的單位都算是經濟間諜"},{"start":4671.118,"end":4690.348,"text":"那麼就這個來講的話,我們今天所講的國家的這個安全法、國安法裡面所講國家核心關鍵技術營業秘密,其實重點還在營業秘密,為什麼?因為營業秘密一個範圍比較廣泛,第二個我剛剛說過,它包含技術性跟非技術性那營業秘密呢,我們呢,初步就可以這樣分了"},{"start":4691.368,"end":4712.067,"text":"他有這個國家核心關鍵技術的營業秘密這當然就是國安法裡面所規定的但是也有非國家核心關鍵技術的營業秘密譬如說我們種這個蘭花已經培育出非常多的種類可能我們的蘭花到國外去參展的時候被別人竊取了"},{"start":4712.908,"end":4737.178,"text":"像這種東西可能不是國家的核心關鍵技術但是它一定是一個企業或者是一個經營者裡面它非常關鍵的營業秘密那第三個當然是非技術性的資訊的營業秘密就是我剛剛說過的除了技術性以外還有非技術第四個就比較屬於我們公部門像這個國防機密、軍事情報公部門有公部門管理法還有國家機密保護法"},{"start":4738.158,"end":4758.783,"text":"所以就營業秘密來講的話,牽涉到幾個項目,絕對不只有國家核心關鍵技術的營業秘密所以我們在立法的過程裡面,在保護營業秘密的過程裡面,其實對這一點也要特別重視要不然他就顯然就侵害了這個人民的財產權,顯然也侵害了我們國家整個科技跟產業的競爭力"},{"start":4760.743,"end":4776.088,"text":"所以就這個關係來講的話,我們知道這個業命裡面包含類型居然這麼多種的話,所以我們會提出來保護的方式,如果他真的在立法院或者其他單位想要知道的時候,他至少有三個方式,一個是事前"},{"start":4777.128,"end":4791.242,"text":"事前就要先判斷今天所要求傳喚人的來往．或是要作證的．他所對於可能揭露的移民的等級．所有人還有影響關係的重大性"},{"start":4792.062,"end":4813.051,"text":"必要的時候人民或者民間企業是可以拒絕提出這些移民秘密來的因為它的重要性不下於整個公司的生存發展跟整個國家產業競爭力所以就事前來講的話我個人覺得還是要一定程度維護人民拒絕提供移民秘密在議會裡面"},{"start":4814.554,"end":4843.032,"text":"第二,在會議室中的秘密會議,不過這次在民進黨所提的資料裡面,我個人看到增加了很多在各位的175頁裡面,立法委員、列席人員及會場員工在修正條文第47條第三項禁止攜帶任何可供超錄影音、擴音、錄音、攝影、錄影、傳輸及通訊的器材,並簽具保密切結"},{"start":4845.39,"end":4874.449,"text":"我們立法院也是有時候有進步的不能說他們都沒有進步至少他對於美國翻譯美國的這些相關的工具跟技巧其實都反映進來了所以中間的這個部分是不能夠有任何這樣的行為但是這是事中的狀況那麼還有事後的狀況就是說不能在任何地方以不法的方式取得因為可能他在現場或許某些程度是他可以取得但是他不可以揭露或者利用"},{"start":4876.23,"end":4900.936,"text":"及情節的大小要處理所以就這個175頁裡面今天我們的關係文書裡面175頁那麼第48條那第三項關於立法委員列席人員及會場員工不得以任何方式記錄或洩漏機密內容原則上當然是有努力在寫不過如果我們按照營業秘密法裡面所保護營業秘密的是不法的"},{"start":4901.596,"end":4904.597,"text":"不法取得、洩漏及利用"},{"start":4921.324,"end":4949.358,"text":"所以在事前事中事後能夠做這樣的規範而且事前有一定程度的允許我們的人民團體有拒絕提供必要性的營業秘密的權利那麼最後我還必須說明在今天的關係文書裡面有的地方都寫得不錯但是也有的地方可能稍微改進一點就好了比如說我們第48頁所提出來第47條"},{"start":4952.214,"end":4967.228,"text":"第二項關於前項詢問應有調查委員3人以上在場其今立法院院會決議者相關人員處於國防外交機密理由也就是他現在所"},{"start":4969.87,"end":4993.406,"text":"所列入的主要就是公部門的國防外交機密但對私部門的這個營業秘密我個人覺得如果可以加進的話可能對整個營業秘密保護不管是公部門或私部門的這些跟國家發展相關的安全都有一定程度的作用我個人覺得可以除了國防外交以外還有關於私部門的這個營業秘密的部分也可以列入這是我一個簡單的建議 謝謝各位"},{"start":4997.751,"end":5002.736,"text":"好 謝謝我們劉理事長接下來我們請前監察委員長 桂美委員主席"},{"start":5010.843,"end":5032.768,"text":"主席好 大家好我想時間非常緊迫我就針對幾個重點跟大家交換意見第一個問題就是 這個議題實際上從我比較年輕到現在已經吵了十幾年了 還在吵歸咎原因它一定有非常特殊的原因存在"},{"start":5034.384,"end":5062.579,"text":"後來我自己大致過濾了一下我發現不管是在我們用藍綠很奇怪我們要保持專業客觀不管是在誰執政的時候只要府院是同黨這個案子就會被擱置這個時空太特別了因為這一次的立法院結構沒有一個黨過半數所以我覺得這是一個天賜良緣"},{"start":5063.94,"end":5079.023,"text":"如果還不把握我相信我們這幾天的公聽會折騰了一大堆專家講到最後我相信還是泡沫一場毫無貢獻那所以呢第二個要去思考的問題"},{"start":5081.144,"end":5105.218,"text":"為什麼府院同黨的時候這個案子永遠過不了我説的同黨就是國會的二分之一多數黨跟政府是同黨它永遠過不了為什麼所以我們一定要從學理跟實務上去找原因真正的原因是什麼呢真正的原因國會的監督已經不是靠少數的反對黨"},{"start":5107.196,"end":5120.165,"text":"我們的民主政治已經淪為yes no誰要分之一誰就是最後的權利那這個絕對是民主國家的災難因為我們民主要的不是這個"},{"start":5121.806,"end":5143.394,"text":"我們民主要的不是國會也不是政府才是焦點我們要的是人民的權利那所以重點來了今天為什麼這個議題又再度被翻出來我想大家頂起立場仔細去思考一個問題人民知的權利誰有能力告訴他我自己公職幾度來回我的專業是學者"},{"start":5150.41,"end":5159.422,"text":"可是呢 我發現我在公職的時候 太多的資訊我可以掌握太多的弊案我可以查起可是當我離開公職 很多資訊我看不到 聽不到"},{"start":5163.117,"end":5180.185,"text":"那我請問大家以我做過監委我現在回到平民很多資訊我當時可以掌握知道政府做錯我可以去彈劾我可以去監督今天我什麼都不知道我知道的跟所有老百姓一模一樣高端為什麼那麼貴我不知道臭蛋這麼多銷毀了這麼這麼多"},{"start":5190.26,"end":5197.105,"text":"為什麼?我就算知道了我沒有著力點請問誰給我們著力點?監督政府是靠什麼?不是只靠一個國會他靠五個院耶那但是請大家冷靜下來思考真正掌握全民納稅錢真正掌握所有的重大財源的叫做什麼院?"},{"start":5218.598,"end":5221.72,"text":"他叫做真正的行政體系啊那所以請大家仔細思考行政體系龐大的預算我隨便舉例我們的潛藏負債多少將近20兆我們一年的政府總支出多少5兆左右"},{"start":5242.545,"end":5265.883,"text":"請問你 特別預算要不要通過特別條例來定要特別條例的特別預算有沒有上限它的借貸算不算是赤字我想大家做過公職我們後面的這些專家 在場的學者都非常清楚我們國內的赤字是怎麼算的"},{"start":5267.168,"end":5285.555,"text":"特別預算 特別條例 排除了預算法 排除了公共債務法 排除了財政紀律法的重要條文他甚至科目可以留用 甚至他的舉債 他的赤字算不算在我們總之書的赤字裡面我們怎麼可以這樣搞呢 誰來監督呢"},{"start":5292.313,"end":5312.784,"text":"當一個弱勢的國會他幾乎調查權只能調查瑣瑣碎碎的時候這是老百姓的權利嚴重受損他知的權利在哪裡請大家冷靜思考我們要的是維護人民知的權利所以我們才要聽證調查好 那問題來了聽證調查權"},{"start":5320.299,"end":5323.04,"text":"我舉德國基本法我們這邊非常多的各個領域的學者"},{"start":5346.943,"end":5372.604,"text":"你如果說私人領域可不可以介入呢你可以舉美國最近的幾個大企業案但是你如果問我個人我會認為就算介入私領域一定要綁到人民真正的正義基本權涉及到重大公義的時候他才可以介入而不是一個葉子鬧絕對不能碰很多的大的企業富可敵國請問"},{"start":5376.038,"end":5396.274,"text":"美國的總統是不是企業界來的 過去 有啊當他有權力 他又有所謂的利益的時候你怎麼去監督他我們政治學上 三個社會上最主要的資源一個叫Power 一個叫什麼Privilege一個叫什麼Honor 榮譽我們何曾把榮譽放到我們的社會價值上"},{"start":5407.788,"end":5421.412,"text":"當我們每天都在爭民主義的時候我們怎麼能夠相信哪個機關是聖人沒有一個機關是聖人疫情期間 總統最高的元首745天 這不是我說的這是據媒體報導不開記者會當你國會也沒有辦法"},{"start":5429.898,"end":5437.995,"text":"自詢當你媒體也沒有辦法接觸請問人民知的權利契於何地"},{"start":5440.27,"end":5462.524,"text":"我覺得大家一定要冷靜思考我剛剛講的負債嚴重憑良心說我們都有子孫都有後代都有學生都有年輕人這社會是要交替的可是呢當我看到我們的特別預算不斷地膨脹借貸不斷地膨脹事實上我是非常憂心的"},{"start":5464.022,"end":5486.579,"text":"你德國的基本法它是憲法的位階你看人家怎麼定的我這個有提供書面我相信將來會留下記錄基本法的115條第一項它是把收支原則它本身依貸款的收入它是納進去的"},{"start":5488.44,"end":5507.355,"text":"所以你收支的平衡不是像我們特別預算喔把它排除在預算法23條重要條文之外喔也不是我們好朋友訂了一個財政紀律法財政紀律法的歷史這個時間非常短財政紀律法的第一條多諷刺啊"},{"start":5508.342,"end":5530.669,"text":"第一條叫做基於臨機預算我是憑印象大家自己去查第一條是要落實臨機預算的精神什麼叫臨機預算請問我們政府現在用的是臨機預算嗎當然不是啊那你通過那個法要基於臨機預算那我們全部規定來重新用rational choice"},{"start":5531.63,"end":5531.77,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5547.796,"end":5574.521,"text":"民主政治有一些基本原則這個叫憲政原理而憲政原理不是台灣獨有各國都有我昨天做了一個功課我去法學資料檢索資料庫查了一下所謂的Justice 正義在我們從中華民國一直到現在800多號的釋憲這麼有限的憲法法院的判決裡面"},{"start":5575.961,"end":5598.87,"text":"解釋人的正義只出現了7次而7次裡面大部分是跟稅跟錢有關的其他不叫正義嗎我們的正義是要讓人民有該知道的權利而這個正義絕對不是永遠只建立在立法院的多數必須尊重當府院不同黨少數意見也該被聽到同黨"},{"start":5600.49,"end":5619.84,"text":"如果他不做真正的supervision工作的時候他的少數黨必須要有發聲的管道這叫做社會正義我們從很多的例子裡面可以看到憲政基本精神的落實才是我們今天討論的主題 謝謝好 謝謝我們長官美長委員接下來有請我們鍾嘉斌鍾委員"},{"start":5642.755,"end":5658.541,"text":"謝謝專委員代理主持那我接下來就很快的呢就今天的公聽會進行5分鐘來說明大家看一下這一本就是今天的會議資料這裡面呢今天交務委員會審查作為公聽會依據的有28案"},{"start":5660.45,"end":5684.642,"text":"這是28案決大部分是國民黨部分的民眾黨所提的提什麼呢提立法院職權刑事法提立法院組織法裡面只有少數的三個案子不是國民兩黨提的國民黨跟民眾黨提的是由民進黨提出的立法委員行為法民進黨提的立法院的議事規則規範什麼內容規範在上螢幕上"},{"start":5687.489,"end":5711.105,"text":"因為當我們立法院職權行使要擴張要強調調查權的時候有沒有相對應的權責相符可以我們守密的義務當你調查可以調查機密的時候調查者有沒有守密的義務所以我們看到賴立榮等委員在22案跟28案分別都對於議事規則都有將他訂定參加會議秘密會人的行為規範對於立法委員本身要具以規範"},{"start":5712.006,"end":5732.723,"text":"在後面我們的參考資料當中民進黨團也負責任的提出了四個案其中兩個案也是一樣立法委員行為法跟立法院的議事規則我們目前討論的當我們擴大或落實立法院的調查權的同時國會的調查權的同時我們要注意到什麼我們看到下一頁這些機密有沒有涉及到損及到"},{"start":5733.584,"end":5749.24,"text":"人民 民間私人的營業秘密有沒有影響到我們國家安全的機密所以還有兩個法除了會議議事規則除了立法委員行為法要刻意立法委員有守密的義務違反者要刻意刑責之外"},{"start":5749.921,"end":5769.616,"text":"抱歉我要說的不是我們幾位委員所說的一種自律也不是立法院的紀律委員會的一個處分而是刑責我們看到在目前國家機密保法的第26條下列人員應該經過機關首長的核准這些是觸及到國家機密的"},{"start":5770.997,"end":5799.246,"text":"請問立法院的秘密會議：會不會有觸及到國家機密：有啊!遣件國照是不是國家機密：是啊!立法委員可不可以要求看啊：可以啊!審預算看不到內容：看得到啊!立法委員看到之後還有誰看得到：立法院的工作人員根據國家機密保護法：這些接觸到機密的人員必須出境的時候：要向機關首長的核准立法院的機關首長是誰：就是立法院院長"},{"start":5800.146,"end":5826.94,"text":"所以未來當立法委員行使調查權涉及到機密的時候涉及到秘密會議的時候參與秘密會議的立法委員本人以及會場的工作人員依照國家秘密法文法第26條的原則他要出境之前必須取得立法院院長的同意要不要修法要誰的責任本院的責任請看下一頁除此之外我們目前最大的境外敵對勢力是哪裡"},{"start":5828.442,"end":5857.243,"text":"不用外求就在兩三百公里遠的地方叫做中國中華人民共和國在我們兩岸人民關係條例當中進入大陸地區要怎麼樣要審查會審查許可包括國安局法務部跟陸委會和相關機關組成的審查會請問剛剛所說的如果立法委員在參與進行調查權涉及到的秘密會議當中有觸及到會損害到國家利益的時候"},{"start":5858.565,"end":5869.325,"text":"當這些人要去兩岸進行經常平民的交流的時候要不要經過審查出境前要不要報告回國要不要報告所以這也是兩岸條例第9條"},{"start":5870.782,"end":5887.638,"text":"第三項要面對處理的所以今天當我們談到立法院要強化職權 國會要有調查權 要有聽證權要能夠要求公務機關有不得拒絕 只要是基於立法相關核心持權要進行的不只文件調閱 這些公務機關必須來說明"},{"start":5891.081,"end":5920.032,"text":"包括私人企業 人民團體 中藥好像也有協助調查的義務如果涉及到國家的利益國家的秘密私人的營業秘密那所有語文這些秘密的包括立法院本人需不需要我們未來也在國家機密保護法當中我們在兩岸人民關係條例當中做必要的強化我們不斷地強調包括昨天的公聽會也有包括不分各政黨所推薦的專家學者代表都提到了"},{"start":5920.692,"end":5923.379,"text":"其實最重要的當我們行使權力的"},{"start":5924.261,"end":5924.621,"text":"以上,我們就這一點做一個補充,謝謝"},{"start":5954.148,"end":5955.991,"text":"好 謝謝總裁編委員接下來有請我們 劉書斌教授"},{"start":5973.224,"end":5990.601,"text":"主席在場的學者先進還有政府官員委員大家早安我是東吳大學政治系的劉書斌那因為是出生在政治學界那可能跟剛剛大部分的也許是有法律背景的學者的"},{"start":5991.281,"end":5991.301,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6005.998,"end":6006.198,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6023.66,"end":6047.674,"text":"提升到國會的監督能量第二個部分就是說因為我們的這個調查權目前在國會只有輔助調查權還有是文件調閱權這一部分那我們需要監督到政府的時候就必須像今天就透過這個公聽會來去搜集各種的資訊那我們可以從研究其他各國的一個意見來"},{"start":6048.715,"end":6048.895,"text":"立法院"},{"start":6065.247,"end":6087.669,"text":"在行使這種調查權的時候是不是都沒有一個界限好 那我就提供現在有的這個界限當然還是我們還有剛剛鍾嘉賓委員有提到的相關還可以再去做補充的部分那第四個部分就是今天另外一個重點在於說如果要去調查的這個對象呢涉及到事務事務 或者叫國家安全的時候呢或者是有關於商業"},{"start":6088.43,"end":6088.751,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":6102.349,"end":6121.832,"text":"我們知道立法院很重要的一個憲法職權就是要去監督控制還有要去問責行政機關這個問責行政機關的情況之下我們可以知道的是剛好在今年的時候有一個很重要的就是在2月1號"},{"start":6123.514,"end":6138.185,"text":"新報道的這樣的第11屆的立法委員他們是三黨不過半的也就符合剛剛 蔣規美委員 前監委他所說的過去的情況之下如果一個單獨的長期的這種執政立法院的多數是跟"},{"start":6139.286,"end":6142.927,"text":"總統的黨籍是一樣的時候就會出現到他長期的會有這種貪腐的狀況或者是他沒有辦法去出境到連任的政府那這種情況之下就必須要去具備讓立法委員他的職權要在調查跟監督職權上面要增加"},{"start":6158.732,"end":6161.635,"text":"行政院跟立法院在對應的關係上面的時候對應到他有個憲法執行在立法院的時候他就是必須要去對立法院負責這是他的一個憲法義務"},{"start":6173.669,"end":6202.045,"text":"那對這憲法義務的時候當立法院對於行政院的政府官員做出來要做聽證然後調查的這樣的一個權限的時候呢他必須應該要是人要到然後呢人要到而且他必須要不得有這個說謊隱匿的這個狀況那甚至他必須要應該是要提供提供正確的資訊然後不得拖延這種狀況那這樣才是真正叫做"},{"start":6202.885,"end":6226.492,"text":"實現了行政院對立法院負責的憲法義務另外我們再看看說目前在各國的情況之下面對這種 剛剛所說的行政院有對立法院負責的憲法義務的時候那它應該是怎麼樣規範的我們現在看到的是我現在引用的這個部分就是英國的部分它就是在他們的國會行政監督"},{"start":6227.133,"end":6228.155,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整"},{"start":6238.447,"end":6243.531,"text":"法庭的相應職責 包括有監禁到兩年的情況在德國的掌櫃委員有提到國會的行使當中也在國會調查的委員廢法當中也有提到准用到刑事訴訟法的規定 大家可以看到我的PPT這邊不只有罰還之外 還有得命強制的具體"},{"start":6263.248,"end":6287.779,"text":"那我們再看看下一頁在法國的部分跟我們體制是比較相近的齁這就出現到他國會職權行使法當中有的相關規定他說呢應該如果他無正當理由要證人拒絕做配合資訊的印訊的時候呢或者是拒絕配合印訊提供的相關文件或資料的時候呢他是怎麼樣他是得以處以兩年以下有期徒刑跟7500元的這樣的一個歐元齁這樣的一個罰款"},{"start":6290.14,"end":6290.16,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6301.383,"end":6328.244,"text":"然後川普總統的法律顧問等等也是被依照美國的法律他就說有藐慰國會自由自由的情況甚至有被判刑這樣的情況然後甚至得以賠款100美元到10萬塊美金的這樣的一個罰款那我們知道這樣子就是說他如果違反協助調查的這個義務的時候就會有這樣的一個情況那我們現在再繼續往下看的時候再包括說那立法院他"},{"start":6330.592,"end":6353.39,"text":"到底要行使調查權的時候有沒有界限這個部分剛才有些學者專家就有提到這邊部分那我想要提供證據就在於說因為我們本身在除了憲法的除了本身憲法的立法院他是監督國會行政局員之外呢最重要在我們的立法院的職權行使法當中包括的是"},{"start":6355.291,"end":6361.057,"text":"包括的是質詢還有在所謂的文件調閱權那另外的我們甚至再到4至585號這一部分的時候就有輔助調查權的行使了那後來的4至633號解釋當中他都有提到說立法院在行使這些質詢的時候很重要的情況是怎麼樣他必須要遵守我們剛才所說現在我在黃色裡面所存在一般的法治國原則"},{"start":6377.794,"end":6393.076,"text":"就是他必須遵照人權的保障權力的分立大家之前常說說他會侵犯到檢察院或是說司法院的職權那這邊權力分立是必須要去遵送的然後另外還有比例原則跟一般的法治國上面的法律明確性的這個原則"},{"start":6393.797,"end":6398.299,"text":"在4-729號解釋的這個當中也很清楚的說明包括是說如果對在檢查機關在做偵查期間所做的案件是不容許去調閱的那這個都很清楚"},{"start":6414.525,"end":6432.91,"text":"好 那當然我們就必須再把這些部分呢 再把它列入到說現在正在修法的階段尤其是非常好的實際是三黨不過半的情況之下 沒有一個政黨他必須他可以壟斷這個權力的時候呢 這就是很重要那另外一個部分就是剛才 宗嘉斌委員也有稍微有提到立法院的這個行為法當中其實也有"},{"start":6439.092,"end":6460.189,"text":"這個人力規範還有紀律的這個部分那等一下我讓大家看到下一頁的部分就再說它是屬於國會自律的內容包括我們看到的其實都有規範只是可能沒有做第一個就是不遵守主席依規定所做的這個才是或者是大家很害怕的情況是不是辱罵及涉及人身攻擊的這種言詞還有呢包括這個脅迫他人做意識的這個作為或不作為等等的"},{"start":6467.515,"end":6485.7,"text":"這些部分其實都有相關的規定還包括說依法行使詞權對議事人員做不當的要求或干擾這些部分都是有規範的但是所以如果有違範的情況之下會發生什麼事情就是在我現在看到的就是說呢他可以依照這個"},{"start":6489.111,"end":6491.873,"text":"立法委員的行為法當中送到紀律委員會去進行但是大家不要忘記了前面剛才有說他其實也有司法責任的包括的是說違反到"},{"start":6505.203,"end":6527.037,"text":"有關於這個秘密的這個秘密的外洩這個洩漏秘密洩漏機密這些事情還包括民刑這些部分還有包括行政責任這個部分那這個本身在像國家積木保護法當中呢其實東東都有國家積木保護法當中東東都有而且在議事規則上面其實都講得非常清楚那當然他更有政治責任如果像上次的出現到國會的這個國防委員會這個"},{"start":6532.04,"end":6532.72,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":6549.306,"end":6566.234,"text":"有關於到下面這個重點在於說如果我們要監督就因為行使調查跟聽證權的時候呢涉及到可能要國家安全或是說有些國家或是廠商的企業他們的核心利益的時候那怎麼辦呢其實這部分的時候定義必須要清楚國家安全是什麼"},{"start":6567.434,"end":6588.145,"text":"這邊我們如果用到立法院的職權行使法當中他其實有在質詢當中他有提到說如果是有要避免國防外交那我再加上說有涉及到經濟的部分那有明顯的立即危險的時候就可以呈現出來就可以當然大家也是必須要譬如說剛才有提到的像高端疫苗的這個事情或是說巴西蛋的這個狀況那抱歉我再給我大概30分鐘結束"},{"start":6591.326,"end":6591.566,"text":"秘密會議秘密會議秘密會議"},{"start":6611.761,"end":6611.941,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":6632.703,"end":6659.676,"text":"他做了必須要責任那這個責任是必須要把他苛責的所以秘密外洩這種情況剛才我所說的除了國會自律之外還有就是要送紀律委員會當然就是原來有了司法的比如說防害秘密罪或者是說商業名其他當中所所損害商業營業利益這些重點事情通通都必須他事實上是有責任的那尤其是在這個責任相關當中就是說本法沒有規定的話就是就引用其他相關的法律以下引用都沒有問題但更重要還有政治責任"},{"start":6660.336,"end":6687.509,"text":"這些部分都是很重要的好 謝謝那當然就是民主政治就是必須要靠監督的力量去行事那希望說我們的政府就變成一個年齡政府 謝謝謝謝 謝謝劉教授我們這邊予以宣告那因為待會行政機關代表列席者有需要先離開的我會請他們先做回應那接下來在黃國昌委員發言後我們就請陸委會梁副指委先做回應 謝謝那如果其他機關有需要也跟我講好 請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":6702.544,"end":6721.238,"text":"非常感謝這麼多的學者專家來參與立法院第三次針對有關於國會聽證調查制度所召開的公聽會相信各位寶貴的意見都會記載在立法院公報裡面供本院全力的委員還有社會大眾做參考"},{"start":6722.899,"end":6739.033,"text":"今天討論到一個非常重要的題目立法院在行使職權的時候怎麼樣去防止機密外洩這當然是一個重要而嚴肅的問題目前相關的法制上面剛剛劉書斌老師已經有從法律責任"},{"start":6742.358,"end":6769.464,"text":"自律的責任以及政治的責任三個層面來加以解析但我今天要跟大家分享的一個觀點是說在我國立法院行使職權的過程當中最經常出現的其實不是機密的洩漏而是行政機關自意的自意的用機密當作理由來遮蟲"},{"start":6771.19,"end":6795.327,"text":"來掩飾違法濫權的事實讓立法委員沒有辦法有效監督我為什麼會這樣說呢過去我接過太多行政機關回覆給我上面的公文都打一個密字我就順便請教他們請問你們是依照國家機密保護法哪一條的規定在上面打密"},{"start":6796.311,"end":6822.178,"text":"他說這跟國家機密保護法沒有關係我們有一個公文書的製作手冊這個公文書的製作手冊上面賦予我們行政機關覺得是機密的時候可以在上面打一個密這個叫做一般公務機密這樣的回覆真是令人大開眼界我看以實際的例子來說明會比較清楚一點"},{"start":6823.26,"end":6840.373,"text":"這是一個什麼寒呢去年的時候本院上一屆立委陳婉蕙開始在追蹤有關於台研綠能所涉及的弊案在沒有得到經濟部同意之下前台研綠能的董事長陳啟玉"},{"start":6842.944,"end":6869.464,"text":"他可能因為關係非常的好他大膽到找了四家名股來參與台研綠能那接下來發生了各式各樣神奇的事情其中包括了裡面有個公司他是個土開公司後來專門成為台研綠能在外面的時候進行土開作業跟其他電業商合作"},{"start":6870.265,"end":6894.283,"text":"一個收入非常豐厚的手套而那個時候董事長他的家人還在這個鴻徽來工作其他三個參與的名股都陸陸續續在台研綠能整個拓展的過程當中得到非常多的好處那因此陳恆惠委員"},{"start":6895.524,"end":6917.17,"text":"他針對這件事情提出質詢了以後要求我們的經濟部進行調查經濟部回覆給他一個行政調查報告在左手邊大家可以看到當初經濟部回給他的調查報告上面打一個密字就是我剛剛所講的那個狀況代表這是秘密"},{"start":6918.493,"end":6935.784,"text":"這不能對外洩漏還有解密的期間那就讓大家覺得非常的困惑這到底是一個什麼樣子的秘密呢那但是我是一個念法律的人行政機關有那個臉皮在上面打密那我就尊重"},{"start":6936.704,"end":6962.423,"text":"所以我就任了以後我就再發一個函給經濟部要求經濟部就去年所做的那個行政調查報告在回覆陳晚會委員的報告當中的那個行政調查報告請他提供這個就是右手邊大家看到的公文我上個前4月3號拿到這個公文的時候我仔細的拜讀上面沒有密了"},{"start":6963.447,"end":6965.769,"text":"一模一樣的報告一模一樣的內容一個有密一個沒有密請問標準在哪裡"},{"start":6981.034,"end":7008.853,"text":"當一個國會議員在監督這種濫用國家的資源圖利自己人的爛事的時候要進行監督啊他拿到報告他不能講因為上面打了一個密還好我這次拿到的公文他上面沒有打密所以我看完了整份報告了以後我事實上覺得根本就應該要找經濟部針對這臭不可聞的弊案到國會來進行專案報告"},{"start":7012.877,"end":7027.675,"text":"這件事情台灣社會沒有什麼人知道這就是我們現在在立法院進行監督的日常那第二個狀況2022年我們去年的時候在炒的是巴西的雞蛋"},{"start":7029.099,"end":7050.273,"text":"當我開始在追蹤這件事情的時候我發現我們2022年就開始在進口雞蛋我就累了以後我在2月20號發函請農業部提供2022年日本進口雞蛋的補助金額採購的數量廠商的名稱歷次進來的時間跟數量我從2月20號開始問問到今天問到今天"},{"start":7059.977,"end":7079.981,"text":"我沒有拿到這些重要的資訊我沒有拿到這些重要的資訊我們的農業部告訴我們的是說這個涉及到廠商的機密這個就讓我百思不得其解了用我們納稅的錢在前年的時候去買了雞蛋"},{"start":7082.135,"end":7107.158,"text":"國會不能知道社會大眾也不能知道你雞蛋是跟誰買的買了多少錢都不能知道這是什麼天大的商業秘密啊揭露這個廠商的名稱請問到底是危害了什麼國家安全請問到底是侵害了什麼營業秘密用秘密當作藉口"},{"start":7108.376,"end":7134.921,"text":"把一切成為黑箱運作陽光照不進去立法委員不能問不能看的藉口這個是台灣的民主嗎這個是我們現在的政府在面對國會監督的時候應該有的態度嗎最後這兩天啊開始在討論監察院跟立法院的權責"},{"start":7136.4,"end":7141.609,"text":"說在監察院沒有廢紙以前我們不可以去侵害監察院的權責"},{"start":7143.198,"end":7170.83,"text":"聽到這樣的論調又讓我想起來這件事情其實在2012年我們一樣本院針對立法院怎麼樣去行使我們的調查權跟聽證權的時候非常多的學者講得很清楚了特別是林濁水前委員我們民進黨的理論大師國會改革的權威者他說講出來的話陣容乏愧"},{"start":7172.025,"end":7182.853,"text":"他說有人認為立法院的調查權跟監察院行使的調查權有爭議我認為這完全是威權體制下專制政黨誤導社會的一個論點"},{"start":7187.216,"end":7208.076,"text":"除了林卓水以外李俊逸也說了調查權本來就是立法院的職權我們現在沒有辦法透過修憲改變的時候我們至少應該要把國會的調查權以及實施調查權會用到的聽證制度給建立起來這個是在修憲以前"},{"start":7209.315,"end":7230.476,"text":"不用修憲非檢察院李俊逸委員提出這麼精闢的見解主席站起來了我必須要結束了最後借20秒最後讓我最敬佩的就是尤美女委員她2012年的時候說得最好她說當某個政黨執政後她就不願意充實立法委員的職權"},{"start":7233.687,"end":7247.453,"text":"這是12年前說的話在2024年的今天再次拜讀令人震攏發聵非常非常的佩服謝謝大家 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員接下來我們就先請陸委會梁文傑副主委來這邊來請副主委先做回應 謝謝"},{"start":7260.936,"end":7282.392,"text":"梁副主委回應之後我們繼續請舒子喬教授發言主席各位專家學者還有各位朋友大家好我就陸委會的執掌的部分我來對這個問題稍微表達一下我們陸委會的看法"},{"start":7284.04,"end":7309.487,"text":"我們對於國會的監督、調查、聽證等等我們並沒有特別的意見但是我們對陸委會來說我們所關心的是監督、調查、聽證之後所接觸到的機密是不是會有外洩的問題那就兩岸人民關係條例來講兩岸條例第9條"},{"start":7312.915,"end":7341.536,"text":"我們是有對特定人員復錄管制的去大陸的要管制那但是我們現在管制的對象大概是這樣第一個政務人員第二個直轄市長第三個縣市長然後接下來是比較廣泛的就是說涉及國家安全利益或機密業務之人員大概是這樣"},{"start":7342.901,"end":7353.987,"text":"那所謂直轄市長跟縣市長老實講他們的會接觸到機密的可能性遠遠比不上"},{"start":7356.789,"end":7385.574,"text":"大院的各位委員但是當初為什麼會把直轄市長跟縣市長列入而沒有把立法委員列入這個在30幾年前的事情我們並不是很了解但是至少立法委員或立法院在接觸到國防外交機密的時候他是屬於涉及國家安全利益或機密業務之人員"},{"start":7387.289,"end":7411.107,"text":"在我們的看法是這樣子那有一個所以當涉及到國家安全利益或機密業務的話照講立法院就應該要呈報或是提列哪些人有涉及到就貴院的這個所處理的業務上譬如說"},{"start":7412.318,"end":7441.248,"text":"立法院有召開秘密會議就國防外交事項會召開秘密會議也有審查機密預算但是到目前為止從我們的資料來看沒有立法院沒有提報過任何需要這個附路管制的人員那跟貴院比較功能類似的監察院"},{"start":7442.589,"end":7466.977,"text":"監察院其實他也有調查權那他也會接觸到在調查過程之中也會接觸到很多的國防外交機密所以監察院他向來是會提報那監察院目前依據兩岸條例他提報的是26人"},{"start":7469.356,"end":7490.306,"text":"離退職的還要管制的未滿3年都要管制離退職的有12人徵務人員16人那國家機密依照國家機密保護法所提列的大概有44個人那監察院的作業方式就是說"},{"start":7491.678,"end":7520.13,"text":"只要公文列為機密等級以上的承辦人員還要核定機密的人員都會列入那譬如說他們的包括監察委員包括監察院的調查處包括監察院的業務處還有監察院的外交國防委員會的工作人員都會列入"},{"start":7521.946,"end":7548.452,"text":"所以從陸委會的角度來說我們不會去對立法院到底最後所審議出來的國會聽證調查決的範圍到哪邊我們並沒有特別的意見但是我們只是希望說能夠同時也制定一下"},{"start":7549.335,"end":7567.39,"text":"制定一下這個關於立法院在觸碰到國防外交機密的時候他的出國管制以及賦入管制這個部分我們認為是可能要做一些比較加強的規定以上 謝謝"},{"start":7569.602,"end":7598.628,"text":"好 謝謝梁副主委原來監察院在進行調查權過程接觸的國家機密他們有依兩岸人民關係條例去進行一個報告審查這個我們也開了眼界謝謝我們梁副主委我們與會的列席的機關代表如果有根據今天相關的提供有需要像國家機密保護法等等的也可以在待會回應的時候一起來回應接下來我們請舒子喬教授發言請"},{"start":7610.772,"end":7635.592,"text":"主席在座各位先進大家好我是東吳政治系蘇紫橋我長期作為憲政體制跟憲法的一個研究者我長期關注立法院調查權的這個議題所以今天非常高興有這個機會能夠參加這個公聽會來討論立法院要如何落實這個立法院要如何立法來落實這個調查權"},{"start":7638.495,"end":7655.896,"text":"其實在大法官釋字585號解釋這個解釋文我們大家已經談了很多很多了就是說這解釋文是在20年前2004年就作出解釋文那這個解釋文在這個就已經很明確宣示說在我國的憲政體制裡面立法院是擁有調查權的"},{"start":7656.917,"end":7684.836,"text":"那在過去20年當中我們立法院始終沒有依據大法官解釋去把立法院的調查權去做立法的落實那這個很重要的一個原因這個剛剛前縣委長惠美老師也有提到就是說因為在過去我們從尤其從2008年以來我們總統行政院跟立法院多數都是同黨的在這樣的格局之下這個立法院"},{"start":7686.007,"end":7704.717,"text":"沒有這個 多數黨沒有這個動機去去監督透過調查群去監督行政院監督行政部門所以說在今年選後很難得出現就是說行政部門跟立法院多數不一次這樣的一個格局那我們可以說現在這個時刻是一個很難得開啟的一個機會之窗"},{"start":7708.119,"end":7725.893,"text":"終於有機會可以落實這個立法院調查權的行使程序所以我很期待就是說立法院這一次能夠真的透過立法把這個調查權能夠正式法制化那千萬不要在開了公聽會之後後來之後又不了了之啦這又功虧一簣這是我希望能夠很期待能夠避免的一個事情"},{"start":7727.383,"end":7745.085,"text":"那因為大法官解釋的效力等同於憲法所以我們其實真的今天已經不用去爭辯說是不是立法院有調查權立法院有調查權這個事情已經是毫無爭議的事情了那其實討論焦點就應該是放在說要如何在法制上讓立法院調查權的這個行使程序能夠那個定得更完善"},{"start":7746.086,"end":7747.107,"text":"更符合我國憲政體制權力分立原則"},{"start":7775.966,"end":7797.372,"text":"第一點就是說因為我國是五權憲五權體制五權憲法體制不論各位就在座對於考試院跟監察院的定位非考監這個議題是有什麼樣的立場可是我國目前的憲政架構還是個五權體制的一個架構所以也就是說我們立法權跟監察權兩者是有區分的"},{"start":7799.272,"end":7825.525,"text":"那大法官解釋在585號解釋也有提到就是立法院為了有效行使憲法所賦予是立法職權而享有調查權以主動獲取行使職權所需的資訊而立法院調查權是行使是立法院行使其憲法職權所所必要的輔助性權利我這邊特別強調就是說其實調查權是立法院行使憲法職權的輔助性權利而他的目的是為了要獲取"},{"start":7826.005,"end":7831.548,"text":"行與執權相關的資訊所謂輔助性權利就是說調查權這個權利本身它不是一種目的它是一種手段一種工具就好比說監察院它行使調查權目的是為了要輔助彈劾糾舉糾正權的行使因為要"},{"start":7847.698,"end":7872.813,"text":"彈劾某行政官員彈劾某官員所以要透過調查的手段來判斷說到底這個官員有沒有違法失職是不是需要彈劾以這樣的方式來觀察就是說我們在肯定立法院擁有調查權的這樣前提之下我們必須要審慎思考就是說根據這個憲法規定立法院他在擁有的職權裡面"},{"start":7875.194,"end":7898.096,"text":"到底是為什麼需要以調查權作為工具、作為手段那我們盤點一下憲法裡面的各種相關於立法院執權的相關規定立法院有法案提案權、有執行權、有人事同意權有聽取總統國情報告有對總統的談判跟罷免提案權這些相關的權利那就是說在有這些權利的這樣的前提之下那真的必須要去思考就是說"},{"start":7899.478,"end":7908.946,"text":"調查權行使人的這個作為手段他在輔助這些權力行使他要如何去去這個讓這些權力行使人有效的運作"},{"start":7910.998,"end":7933.285,"text":"總之第一點我要強調是說立法院調查權行使的目的是為了獲取行使職權所需要的資訊而不是為了要去整次關偵追查流弊整次關偵追查流弊是監察院的主要職權立法院當然是有監督行政院這樣的一個權力沒有錯可是我覺得這一個兩者之間的權力界限還是要區分出來了"},{"start":7933.965,"end":7956.605,"text":"所以如果把調查權本身當成目的這個會違反我覺得這個地方會有明顯違反我國五權體制下的權力分立這個原則的這樣的疑惑這樣的疑慮第二點就是說我這邊要強調就是說關於提綱上所提到的就是說行政機關的行政特權的這個議題我這個也要呼應一下就是說因為我國現在體制是半總統制或是雙首長制不是內閣制"},{"start":7959.528,"end":7982.606,"text":"那在內閣制之下就在英國德國這種內閣制之下行政權因為是來自立法權所以非常強調法律保留原則因為法律是立法機關定的而不太強調這個行政保留那所謂行政保留只是說在某些特定的權力分立的原則之下這個行政機關它有自主決定不受外部干涉特別是不受立法機關干涉的權力核心領域"},{"start":7983.487,"end":8000.017,"text":"那因為我國的這個辦總統制之下其實行政權他的權力來源也是有民意基礎的就是來自總統這個內閣制是不一樣的所以在我們的憲政體制裡面跟總統制一樣就是說承認行政保留的這個空間跟範圍其實真的會比較大的那"},{"start":8001.658,"end":8016.057,"text":"行政保留這個概念其實也就呼應到今天提綱上所提到的行政特權這樣的一個概念因為行政特權這個名稱或國家機密特權這個名稱講到特權這個名稱一般都會覺得很刺耳"},{"start":8016.678,"end":8032.439,"text":"不過我這邊還是要提醒就是說在我們的憲政體制裡面確實需要承認行政特權因為我們不是內閣制我們在雙元民主正當性總統跟國會都有民主正當性的情況之下其實行政部門本身既然有自己的民意基礎他確實有一個"},{"start":8033.3,"end":8057.655,"text":"一個空間是它不受立法機關干涉的一個權力範圍所以我這個地方我也認為就是說國防外交國家機密就是說作為這一部分作為排除立法院行使調查權的對象或者是說對於這個國防外交國家機密這些事項在行使調查權的程序上做特別規定我個人是支持這樣的一個立法方向的"},{"start":8058.996,"end":8074.989,"text":"那這邊也可以延伸到一個提醒就是說這個我們在制定我們調查權的這個相關的法制化的過程當中可能我們更需要參考的是這個美國跟法國這樣的立法例因為美國跟法國都是有一個雙重民主正當性"},{"start":8076.149,"end":8096.606,"text":"總統跟國會行政跟立法部門都有民主正常性這樣的一個先任體制而不是都是貼著那個德國立法例因為德國是內閣制國家那內閣制國家的權力分立精神跟總統制辦總制權力分立的原則其實就是不太一樣的那我覺得就是說這個地方要從先任體制的這個類型的角度也做這個提醒"},{"start":8098.268,"end":8125.843,"text":"第三點我這邊要進一步提醒跟強調就是說因為立法院的調查權的行使是一種集體性的權利那為了要讓這個調查權能夠有效的發揮功能也必須要思考就是說要讓少數的立法委員能夠啟動調查那因為如果說立法院的調查權在未來的行使程序當中只有立法院院會的多數或者說委員會的多數才能夠啟動調查的話"},{"start":8128.765,"end":8145.752,"text":"當立法院跟行政部門是一致的時候立法院的調查權就幾乎是被架空跟形容虛設了我們今天這個時刻是很難得看到總統跟立法院多數不一致這樣的一個格局出現所以我們今天才有這麼大的一個空間跟機會去討論調查權這個議題"},{"start":8147.873,"end":8163.946,"text":"那可是未來我們的憲政體制裡面的運作裡面其實還是會有很大的機會是總統行政跟立法院是三者一家親的情況因為在我們目前的這個國會選舉制度之下跟我們現在的這個這個總統跟立法院同時選舉的這樣的情況之下其實"},{"start":8166.648,"end":8194.224,"text":"還是可能會回到2008年到2024年就是今年之前的總統國會立法院多數三者一家親的情況那這種情況之下即使立法院有調查權而如果只讓立法院的多數陣營或多數黨能夠發動啟動的話那調查權就很容易被架空啦所以我這邊也要提醒就是說其實這個讓少數立委能夠啟動調查這個也是有必要的總之我這邊我剛剛提了三個重點我這邊小結一下就是說"},{"start":8196.185,"end":8220.868,"text":"調查權有它的行使界限那這邊必須要尊重就是說權利分立原則在我國的五權體制的憲法裡面跟我們的半重制的這個憲政體制架構裡面有它在這個架構之下要去思考一下我們調查權的行使界限的問題那另外就是我提到就是少數立委也應該要有啟動調查這樣的權利以上是我的這個顯見提供各位這個先進參考 謝謝"},{"start":8223.598,"end":8223.778,"text":"主席"},{"start":8246.75,"end":8269.367,"text":"主席各位立委先進跟各位學者先進那我今天討論的是立法院的國會調查權跟聽證權那我先講五個基本的重點就是說第一個立法院的聽證與調查權"},{"start":8272.608,"end":8300.007,"text":"它不是一個獨立的權利它是立法權的輔助所以它不等於司法的調查權它這個目的呢是在釐清跟輔助立法的功能所以它不是一個可以獨立行使的特別權利因為我們要守住這個憲法的這個限制第二個民選的立法院跟總統民選的總統呢"},{"start":8302.288,"end":8326.723,"text":"它是一個平行的存在因為這跟內閣制國家是不一樣的所以它必須相互尊重彼此權利的行使所以國防外交兩岸關係是總統行政專權的特別領域因為這規定在憲法裡面在美國憲法裡面這叫做總統的憲法固有權這個不是"},{"start":8330.205,"end":8356.622,"text":"國會這跟國會是平行的存在那第三就是說立法院要行使聽證跟調查權呢我們建議這個範圍跟界限呢必須用專法來制定因為遵守權力分立的界限那不應該跟司法跟監察兩權發生重疊跟衝突第四個就是也是很重要的一件事情因為這是一個"},{"start":8358.323,"end":8372.896,"text":"調查權是一件很重要的權利所以要先建立立法院的倫理規範跟工作守則因為美國都這麼做不然會出事真的會出事那特別是在聽證調查權行使開始之前"},{"start":8373.686,"end":8395.507,"text":"而且要擴及到立法委員的助理跟相關人員的法律責任這是一個非常嚴肅的事第五個就是說對於司部門行使聽證跟調查之權特別要慎重因為這個權利不是司法調查權應該最主要的目的應該是以徵詢意見"},{"start":8397.068,"end":8397.248,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":8416.01,"end":8431.207,"text":"立法院調查權發動的門檻將來要討論一個很重要的東西就是我什麼樣的情況可以發動那個門檻他是重要的權衡也是爭議所在那你是不是要院會的半數決議才可以發動還是說這個委員會就可以決議發動"},{"start":8436.943,"end":8457.527,"text":"那在政治上開始我會建議比較謹慎因為聽證還好我是說調查這種調查權的發動呢一般美國的做法比較重大的事情他為了要釐清政治責任他通常都要輸面比如說總統跟參議院國會之間"},{"start":8461.398,"end":8479.566,"text":"重要決策要釐清政治責任所以將來如果要發動調查權的話我也建議必須要用正式的書面續名理由因為會留下政治責任跟歷史記錄那另外就是說在憲法權力分立的制度裡面特別是總統制的國家"},{"start":8481.906,"end":8496.477,"text":"他跟內閣制國家不一樣的地方是國會要發動這個調查權他有他的民事或隱藏的這個天花板他有個天花板他沒有想像這個想像中的大"},{"start":8497.472,"end":8517.488,"text":"因為我們這麼講我們以以三權分立的美國他的說法就是說其實我們通常會理解為三權分立行政立法司法是一個等邊三角形可是按照美國的憲法學的專家所說的他其實是不是一個等邊三角形他是三個"},{"start":8518.789,"end":8543.672,"text":"不等邊的三角形這麼說就是說如果是屬於涉外事務權利兩岸關係國防國安領域他是總統的專屬權利我們這邊所講的就是總統固有權也是所謂的行政特權他是憲法賦予總統的權利那國會給予的是什麼給國會的什麼權利呢他叫做concurrent rights"},{"start":8543.868,"end":8553.776,"text":"他是一個同意監督之權因為整個對外關係涉及到國家安全是給予總統的可是如果是國內事務"},{"start":8555.997,"end":8584.884,"text":"那當然是國會的立法權最大那所以如果國會民事不同意呢那總統只能退回去守他的憲法的固有權那司法機關呢是被動的守住違憲解釋權跟個案的司法判決權可是呢這裡要提醒的一件事就是說如果涉及到基本人權的事務比如說像美國所說的權力法案的內容"},{"start":8585.646,"end":8610.838,"text":"那其實在這個三角形裡面呢最高的是法院保障人權才是最高的即使是國會的立法權或者是行政權都必須退讓這是美國那個非常著名的首席大法官Robert Jackson他就採取這個基本觀點他認為三權是分立的"},{"start":8611.616,"end":8636.152,"text":"可是同時也存在著彼此競爭跟合作的關係所以它是一個動態的權力本質所以將來這個立法院要啟動這個調查權聽證權其實它也是在權力運作下的一個動態平衡可是這裡面有一條紅線就是彼此之間的憲法界線是必須要遵守的"},{"start":8637.193,"end":8656.743,"text":"那換句話說我們在談到就是說4585特別談到的所謂的行政特權那個人認為啦如果涉及到國家安全或國家核心關鍵技術的保密的問題呢其實行政機關如果有正當理由的話是可以拒絕的"},{"start":8661.159,"end":8686.267,"text":"這裡面在討論到一件事情就是說在發動調查之權呢其實立法院有很多的權力包括質詢包括公聽包括召集秘密會議、調閱這是行政機關跟立法機關在政治協調之間的藝術除非兩院衝突或政治破裂它才會有發動調查權的可能性那"},{"start":8687.427,"end":8709.83,"text":"其實要發動這個調查權呢這個當然是可以的可是就是說立法院的政府院長也好啊總召也好啊召委也好了他對於發動調查權他也必須具備正當性他也同時負有政治責任也要接受社會輿論的等等的公平那"},{"start":8712.679,"end":8736.928,"text":"至於這個保密義務我認為這是一個在行政特權上當然行政機關他在提供秘密文件的時候他可以要求參閱不得記錄或限定檢閱也可以要求相關人士拒絕保密責任那在相關的責任上如果有違反情節嚴重當然我覺得一個比較重要的東西就是"},{"start":8738.089,"end":8753.387,"text":"在這個互動的過程裡面真的發生比較不好的事情的時候我覺得立法院也應該承擔一個責任就是要移送紀律委員會來處理那因為我的其他的東西都在報告上那我就報告到這裡謝謝"},{"start":8755.913,"end":8759.614,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位學者專家 各位政府官員"},{"start":8784.164,"end":8812.133,"text":"在過去35年裡我一直在臺灣負責憲政教育同時也有將近20年的時間從事政治實務在我擔任立法委員、監察委員跟國大代表這三個不同職務的具體的經驗裡我發覺這個國大代表的權利是遼背一格監察委員是具備真正的實權"},{"start":8813.655,"end":8841.666,"text":"而立法委員的權利多半都是空洞只是走秀那主要的原因就是在於這個調查權跟聽證權的缺乏那今天我們終於有機會來討論這個聽證跟調查的實際的運作所以我先針對剛剛前面十幾位先進所提出的內容我提出三個重要的"},{"start":8843.231,"end":8866.116,"text":"經驗跟教訓第一就是五權之間是有機互補的第二憲政本身是成長的第三政治與法律的互動除了依據政治實力之外也跟政黨之間的競合有密切的關係"},{"start":8867.816,"end":8890.656,"text":"在這個重要的三個前提之下我們來看兩件在25、6年前的重要的國會改革第一個是在1999年的1月由民進黨當時的沈富雄委員、林卓瑞委員"},{"start":8892.285,"end":8915.132,"text":"國民黨的林光華委員以及我當時提出了一個重要的國會改革方案其中呢要求成立三個重要的立法院內的重要的機構第一個是法治局第二是預算局第三是國會圖書館結果當時執政的國民黨為了害怕"},{"start":8921.803,"end":8922.123,"text":"公聽委員："},{"start":8946.381,"end":8972.313,"text":"預算局壓低成為預算中心而原先的規劃就是法治局、預算局跟國會圖書館都是具備政務人員的位階現在把它通通壓到13職等所以這告訴我們什麼呢就是當行政體系害怕國會有用充分職能的時候它是藉由考試院之手"},{"start":8973.737,"end":8982.447,"text":"以國家的文官跟官員的具體的執掌為由來扮演剎車的角色"},{"start":8983.988,"end":9004.821,"text":"第2個事情是在1998年當監察院經過了第二次第三次修憲他的權力大幅度改變的時候這個時候當時的監察院長王作榮希望透過立法院之手能夠調整監察院的內部的機制"},{"start":9006.265,"end":9027.432,"text":"這個時候行政院又出面了這個時候出面的是人事總局人事局當時的要求是在不增加任何行政人員的條件之下進行機構的改革在這個情況之下第一監察院從原來的10個委員會縮減成7個委員會這個時候人事就騰出來了很多人"},{"start":9032.486,"end":9032.786,"text":"公聽委員．"},{"start":9047.079,"end":9064.416,"text":"提出了一個重大的改革就是將監察院27位委員加上院長副院長這個29個人的規模用三個方式第一個就是高職等的檢任官的調查官"},{"start":9065.543,"end":9067.484,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9081.612,"end":9098.284,"text":"監察院調查處而事後監察權的成長跟調查工作的落實跟1998年的監察院組織法的調整有密切的關係而這個正是今天我們在討論"},{"start":9099.545,"end":9119.88,"text":"立法院的調查權如何落實的時候最重要的關鍵就是立法院的調查機制專職專業的調查人員在哪裡如果缺乏這個機制的話下面的立法院調查權的落實是有重大缺陷的"},{"start":9120.981,"end":9146.335,"text":"第二 剛剛很多學法律的專業委員跟專家都特別提出了這個程序必須非常的審慎我個人也是抱著同感這個會經過立法院一段時間的政黨協商政黨競和以及五院之間的互動最後會出來一套比較詳實的立法"},{"start":9149.937,"end":9169.372,"text":"監察之間的互動所形成的新的機制這個機制是什麼呢就是聽證權跟調查權如何落實如何讓立法院的調查權跟監察院的調查權能夠做清晰的分隔"},{"start":9170.553,"end":9191.361,"text":"這個時候我想提出來第一個原則就是監察院的調查權是由委員個人行使是經過監察院內部的派查程序包括院會的派查包括委員會的派查包括委員個人登記的調查來進行"},{"start":9194.022,"end":9208.472,"text":"第二就是監察院的調查的結果涉及到關真的部分是由委員橫珠實況負責調查的委員來決定是不是提起彈劾或者糾舉"},{"start":9209.773,"end":9235.962,"text":"然後再由委員會來決定是不是對相關的機關提出具體的糾正的作為但是大家都忽略了下面一個重要的權利就是當監察院的委員會對相關機關做成了糾正之後因為被糾正的機關它的首長會更迭"},{"start":9237.907,"end":9266.963,"text":"所以現在的首長沒有理由去承擔前面出事的首長的政治責任可是監察院有一個重要的機制叫做質問這個質問權如果一旦行使這個時候被質問的行政機關的首長就知道如果他再不根據糾正跟質問的內容進行調整下一階段"},{"start":9268.386,"end":9288.171,"text":"監察委員就可以對他行使彈劾即使過去的錯誤的作為責任不在他但是經過了質問的程序之後這個時候他就要承擔具體的政治責任而且可能會被彈劾或糾舉所以"},{"start":9288.973,"end":9310.138,"text":"我們必須了解就是五權之間是一種動態的平衡而且是一種有機的互補所以我剛剛所報告的包括立法院本身的國會改革因為考試院的出面而觸礁而打了折扣"},{"start":9312.172,"end":9337.699,"text":"監察院要擴張他的調查權依賴的是立法院的修正監察院組織法提供了七八十位專業的調查人員大幅度的強化他的能力第三今天要落實立法院的調查權也必須依賴第一個立法委員的自律"},{"start":9339.188,"end":9359.848,"text":"立法院跟監察院在行使調查作為的時候的區隔在這個前提之下我想特別提出一點就是當立法院在執行它的調閱政府文件工作的時候首先要符合保密原則"},{"start":9362.879,"end":9378.368,"text":"聽證的對象是及於所有的公務人員包括政務官但是私人機關個人是不是接受聽證是不是接受調查是由他自行決定"},{"start":9379.853,"end":9398.62,"text":"所以剛剛談了很多的政治實務如果有一些私人企業覺得他接受調查並且在聽證會出席對他的企業有利他自己會來而不應該是由細緻的法律條件做過多的規範"},{"start":9399.6,"end":9400.16,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9426.964,"end":9427.744,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9456.869,"end":9457.049,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9476.516,"end":9477.337,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":9507.217,"end":9508.438,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9537.841,"end":9539.163,"text":"我剛才查了25條質問之"},{"start":9548.283,"end":9548.903,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9573.496,"end":9574.317,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":9597.108,"end":9597.428,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9625.246,"end":9626.027,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9642.221,"end":9642.661,"text":"委員會主委委員會"},{"start":9660.808,"end":9662.529,"text":"公聽會：完整會議公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":9689.457,"end":9690.058,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9732.066,"end":9737.268,"text":"我們繼續公聽會的進行接下來邀請郭育仁所長發言"},{"start":9746.902,"end":9771.168,"text":"感謝主席然後在場各位先進這個我這是第一次參加立法院的公聽會我今天來參加這個公聽會之前我一直以為事實上最無聊的會議是學術會議結果沒想到立法院的公聽會比我們學術會議更沒意義啦在討論這麼一個嚴肅的議題國會調查權"},{"start":9776.666,"end":9801.583,"text":"很巧啦 看到三個政黨的立法委員發言嘛這個我自己不是黨員 我沒動的啦可是我這樣看 國民黨跟民眾黨的立委在看待這個議題的態度是隨便是令人咋舌啦還好那個藐視國會最後還沒通過 不然我這樣講可能就藐視國會了"},{"start":9804.571,"end":9833.98,"text":"尤其今天討論的這個調查國會調查權又涉及除了國家的國家機密之外還有這個營業秘密的部分所以剛剛這個黃委員在講黃國昌委員在講說私人企業的這個什麼營業秘密為什麼不能看為什麼不能了解各位回想一下沒有幾年前喔沒有幾年前啦2020年的口罩算不算是國家重要物資啊"},{"start":9836.875,"end":9856.7,"text":"2022年烏克蘭戰爭爆發的時候美國的這個星鏈馬斯克星鏈是私人企業阿有沒有影響到一個國家的存亡阿所以是你國會說要調查就可以調查美國國會也沒有這麼大的權力啦所以我覺得"},{"start":9858.223,"end":9886.014,"text":"那個討論不應該是聚焦在是不是國會擴權或國會跟行政機關之間的相對性權力的相對性而是討論 discussion is center on national interest是討論的重心應該是怎麼達成國家利益的最大化我都沒聽到 這個不是yes no的question不是討論要或不要 是what and how的question"},{"start":9887.912,"end":9902.459,"text":"應該要針對哪些特定的秘密特定的機密然後要用什麼程序去完成調查因為尤其是商業秘密的部分它涉及的範圍太廣了"},{"start":9904.814,"end":9920.856,"text":"專業程度太高了我是擔心我們立法委員的平均數值所以這個程序又非常困難因為他在立法院裡面進行代表他政治性會非常高所以如果不把這些事情"},{"start":9922.742,"end":9944.488,"text":"把它考慮進來 我覺得討論的都是假討論的我舉一個例子 我自己是研究兩用科技的我是研究軍工業的啦我舉個例子啦 各位也不要覺得說好像我們台灣的立法院 我們台灣的國會沒有真正在落實國會調查權好像是天底下的民主國家好像只有台灣一個啦我舉一個例子 日本從1947年形現"},{"start":9947.29,"end":9970.199,"text":"日本第一個國會的獨立調查委員會是什麼時候成立 可能大家都不知道是2011年才成立 因為311大地震的關係因為福島河災的關係行限了幾十年 日本國會第一次行使獨立調查權這個2013年 日本就有前車之鑒所以安倍晉三擔任首相的時候"},{"start":9971.092,"end":9992.394,"text":"在國會通過了非常重要一個法律叫特定秘密保護法我要跟各位分享的就是說日本國會為了要行使調查權他先鋪墊了非常多的法制的工作他先2013年通過一個特定秘密保護法然後他的國會法"},{"start":9993.564,"end":10006.741,"text":"要相對應的去做修改 修改了哪些條文日本的國會法104條去發動調查權的條件在具備什麼條件底下 國會才能夠發動調查權他修了國會法52-2條發動調查權的程序"},{"start":10013.807,"end":10033.813,"text":"國會法第102條13到15項還特別為了行使國會調查權要成立一個常態常設的情報監視審查會就如同我剛剛說的因為你要調查的這些內容範圍太廣專業度太高所以你一定要有一個常設的幕僚單位也因為這個樣子還要成立這個國會法修國會法102"},{"start":10040.725,"end":10057.973,"text":"13至15項成立這個長色性的情報監察這個審查會他那個審查會委員8個是按照國會這個執政在野黨派的比例下去下去這個由各個政黨下去做指派"},{"start":10060.465,"end":10080.447,"text":"又為了成立這個委員會這個審查會還訂定了國會還訂定了這個審查會的章程然後這個章程裡面第二條第三條還特別規定這些成員他的資格他的任期他的比例然後他的4-1條還特別規定國會自律的部分"},{"start":10081.528,"end":10103.133,"text":"就是剛剛這個很多先進都有討論到 國會自律的部分 包含什麼國會議員有意或無意洩漏了你正在調查的這些特定的情報跟國家機密都在這個地方 法則也在這個地方去做非常明確的這個規定修改國會法102條第18項 審查會還成立一個事務局"},{"start":10108.502,"end":10114.969,"text":"換句話說這個輔助國會調查委員會的這個常態性的審查會還成立一個事務局"},{"start":10116.715,"end":10140.801,"text":"對 就如剛剛各位所討論到的在國會在我們立法院裡面審的很多東西包含立法委員本人跟他的助理也好立法院的職員他都會接觸到這些機密文件所以他還特別成立這個審查會的事務局來規範這個職員們的這個保密跟規範的義務所以他又去修改了國會職員法5至2條"},{"start":10143.581,"end":10168.128,"text":"所以換句話說要發動一個國會這個調查權日本政府、日本國會事先要做這麼多這個法規的基礎工程我剛才都沒聽到這個部分的討論那2013年的特定密意保護法剛剛講了它跟國會法的修法是corresponding這個新法跟國會法的修改是corresponding是相對應的"},{"start":10170.236,"end":10197.372,"text":"特定秘密保護法10-1條它就對應國會法剛剛提到104條的秘密委員會的部分還不只這樣我們今天討論的剛剛討論的是國家機密的部分我現在再跟各位報告一下2022年日本通過經濟安全保障推進法這個部分就是我們一直提到剛剛一直提到的營業秘密的部分"},{"start":10199.969,"end":10219.651,"text":"日本政府日本國會通過這個法之後他還在這個內閣設了一個新的辦公室叫做經濟安保推進辦公室啊對啊這個辦公室是幹什麼他這是事務局啦因為商業秘密涉及的範圍比國家秘密涉及的範圍更廣泛專業度更高啦"},{"start":10221.124,"end":10248.502,"text":"所以你一定要有一個常態性的專業幕僚單位才能夠做這個事情那它規範哪些事這個特定的法律規範哪些事第一個國家重要物資的指定跟這個國家關鍵供應鏈的指定所以剛剛提到嘛現在大家都口罩很寡口罩不重要三年前口罩不重要重不重要是國家重要物資當然是國家重要物資嘛"},{"start":10251.12,"end":10275.505,"text":"當時3年前2022年2021年的時候生產這個口罩的那些機器啊現在沒有人買了啦3年前是不是國家重要物資當然是嘛第二點它規範什麼核心關鍵基礎設施啦這個核心關鍵基礎設施還不是只有實體的就是港口啊機場那些而已喔它還包含什麼能源供給啦包含通訊"},{"start":10277.399,"end":10288.449,"text":"包含通訊在內都是它規範的範圍第三個跟第四個就相對那個概念又更複雜了第一個涉及專利不公開的部分"},{"start":10289.765,"end":10313.794,"text":"專利不公開的部分第4個涉及什麼?尖端科技的政府與民間合作阿這個現在在台灣常常發生阿我們完全沒有這些法規建設阿完全沒有阿所以你單獨討論國會的調查權所以我剛一開始有講嘛我頭硬的是沒必要韓國昌比較激動阿我不知道他在講什麼啦我聽不懂"},{"start":10314.64,"end":10341.809,"text":"對啊你一直討論國會的調查權的部分你完全沒有相對應的這個法規建設基礎建設我今天才知道說有一個職業比我們大學教授還險那因為這個經濟安全保障法日本政府現在國會正在審議一個新的法叫做重要經濟安保信息法那個是什麼呢他來認定"},{"start":10343.564,"end":10343.824,"text":"以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":10368.874,"end":10394.555,"text":"謝謝郭所長陣容發虧的發言我們也會虛心的來加以檢討我們是不是不夠專業不夠認真也太閒了接下來我們就要請紀俊成教授發言看錯了是張俊豪張教授抱歉那我這邊先做一個程序上的宣告公聽會上午的會議時間會進行到所有發言均結束為止謝謝不好意思張教授謝謝"},{"start":10401.94,"end":10427.47,"text":"主席主席各位先進大家好我是東海大學政治系的張俊豪那因為在後面發言所以在前面有關於調查權的一些細節然後立法的內容目的我想我就不再贅述了那我大概就希望因為我本身做憲政體制研究所以我想我是不是就從憲政體制的角度來提供大院做一個在立法上面的思考我覺得這個思考可能是一個比較上層的問題"},{"start":10427.99,"end":10440.432,"text":"為什麼我說比較上層的問題因為其實我們今天討論立法院的調查權這個調查權當然在其實大家一直在講的585號解釋裡面其實已經把它講得很清楚了也就是說調查權到底怎麼樣去行使"},{"start":10440.785,"end":10440.925,"text":"主題是在討論"},{"start":10459.637,"end":10475.839,"text":"有關於國會調查權監督行政機關的這一件事情所以我覺得在上層來講我們應該先去思考我們要去立這個法就是行政跟立法之間的監督到底怎麼樣讓它可以有效這個叫制衡的關係那我把這個叫做方法"},{"start":10476.42,"end":10492.192,"text":"你要去釐清這個方法怎麼去跳脫585號第二個是我們一直在講說立法要去監督行政機關但是到底行政機關在什麼地方也就是說這個對象到底是什麼所以如果不去把這個釐清的話585號可能你在立法上面接下來都會有違憲的問題"},{"start":10493.613,"end":10516.313,"text":"所以在這個問題上面我覺得第一個就是我們要先去找行政機關的對象我想今天在座很多先進都討論到這個問題那其實包含剛剛周昂山老師我過去都讀他憲法教科書他一直在談到五權憲法但是從4至627號之後我想我們的憲法已經變成是一個六權的憲法了也就是說其實我們就是有兩個行政機關"},{"start":10517.474,"end":10544.384,"text":"627號其實也肯認了在這個憲法上面其實總統在他行政權範圍內他就是一個最高行政首長而且總統就是一個叫做行政機關好那所以基於這個前提雖然憲法上規定行政要對立法負責所以呢立法對行政當然可以監督或者是按照這個大法官會議解釋613號的理由書第二段說行政一體所以行政要對立法負責可是事實上來講627號他其實給予了"},{"start":10546.725,"end":10567.351,"text":"這一個叫做總統作為一個行政機關總統作為一個最高行政首長那麼立法院有沒有可能對總統來進行所謂的監督我覺得這個是第一項問題第二個問題是在實際的憲政運作的過程裡面那這個叫做行政院的院長他其實就是由總統來進行任命的"},{"start":10567.831,"end":10584.838,"text":"我記得過去在我讀書的時候那時候在7月2000年也是少數政府當時這個總統在組閣的時候大家好像還一大堆意見那現在國內根本就沒有討論大家覺得總統跟行政院其實就應該是一體所以我的意思就是說在這樣的一個前提裡面我們作為一個雙手掌勢"},{"start":10585.618,"end":10609.683,"text":"那總統他具有這樣的一個行政權的時候立法院到底怎麼樣能夠去監督得到他好那這個問題其實在617號裡面其實也講很清楚其實總統就是有所謂國家機密的特權而這個國家機密的特權基於總統又去可以去影響去任命他行政院長的時候這個國家機密特權重點其實真的不是在行政院其實他應該就是在總統的身上所以到底要怎麼樣去"},{"start":10611.704,"end":10639.823,"text":"打到總統的這個部分監督到總統的部分調查權能夠給予總統的部分他才有可能完成我們今天這個主題上的討論所以如果是這樣來講的話那其實憲法也並不是沒有提供一個解決的機制事實上面對這個問題過去在585號釋字或者是729號釋字其實就已經提到在所謂司法的偵查上面他其實就已經給予了就是其他的憲法部門"},{"start":10640.963,"end":10665.039,"text":"去監督或者是去處理到總統有關於國家機密特權的這一個問題那現在的問題就會變成是立法院現在要去立這樣的一個法那他當然就第一個部分就是他很可能就會為了去對抗這個叫國家機密特權為了監督國家機密特權所以他可能就會侵害到就是585號729號所講的司法院在這裡面扮演的角色"},{"start":10665.379,"end":10694.298,"text":"那也就不用講說監察院過去在325號解釋所告訴你多他其實也是有調查權所以這個問題在立法的上層上其實就第一步要去思考說其實四字的三號已經講得很清楚今天可能沒有幾位先進提到就是四字三號其實講我們就是一個權力五權那時候還是五權就是五權分治平等相違所以如果立法院要去立這個法的時候我認為非常容易他就是侵害到其他憲政部門的權力"},{"start":10695.419,"end":10711.764,"text":"那我覺得非常有可能會有違憲的問題所以第一步也就是我覺得往上層來看第一步針對這個問題我覺得立法院如果真的要去監督如果想把自己的調查權去擴張甚至取代司法偵查或者是取代這樣的一個監察院的一個這個調查權"},{"start":10712.824,"end":10727.088,"text":"我覺得除非去修憲第一步就修憲去把總統納入到實際合理的納入到行政權的範圍內因為我們說要長治國家我們不是內閣治國家也就是說譬如說你修憲讓總統去參加行政會議然後讓總統來接受質詢除非這個樣子"},{"start":10731.949,"end":10747.667,"text":"那也就是他就可以回到585號上面所講的你要進行調查權跟你的職權相關的時候你要去立法你要去提預算案你要去審預算案你這個時候當然就可以去這個去監督到所謂的總統我覺得這個會符合我們今天的主題"},{"start":10748.328,"end":10761.261,"text":"好可是沒有錯就是如果要討論到修憲的問題這個問題其實太大而且太累而且也太困難了所以我進一步覺得說如果我們再退一步我們再退一步如果不要討論到這麼嚴肅的憲法上面的層次"},{"start":10764.864,"end":10780.119,"text":"那麼回到585號我們就來思考就是585號其實已經給了立法院其實就有文件調閱或者是陳述意見或者是有所謂處罰上面的這樣的一個權利了那但是這個權利呢就是這個權利了齁"},{"start":10781.32,"end":10797.651,"text":"我覺得剛剛其實警衛先進也提到就這些權利其實他在所謂的一致政府的情況之下府會合一的情況之下這根本就根本就不太可能會去討論那現在是在府會不一致的情況之下那我們來討論調查權的問題那這個調查權的問題我覺得就"},{"start":10800.773,"end":10820.047,"text":"會比較接近585號裡面所講的如果今天要去進行調查然後這個叫做行政部門不去配合的時候那麼在這裡面其實立法院他必須要去尊重行政院因為這個就是我們尊重行政機關這就是我們憲法用權力分立的精神那這種所謂的尊重"},{"start":10820.747,"end":10837.084,"text":"或者是要去進行所謂的協商、協調我覺得這個事情其實是比較能夠去思考到的問題那這個思考到的問題就是我要怎麼樣去進行所謂的協商或者是在這裡面去達到所謂的尊重"},{"start":10837.705,"end":10854.072,"text":"那我覺得一樣的問題就如果不去修憲的話除非除非齁我們就去修法我們就再進一步去修法齁把所謂的國家的機密特權這一件事情把國家機密特權這一件事情把它納入到法律的內容裡面來好意思也就是說"},{"start":10855.012,"end":10870.675,"text":"也就是說在不一致政府的情況之下其實總統他這個國家機密特權也就包含國防兩岸外交的這些權利那這些權利其實把他這個這個這個把他納入到所謂的法律體系裡面來的時候包括"},{"start":10871.115,"end":10899.125,"text":"包括過去大家很熱門在討論比如說兩岸的監督條例假設立法院去搞了一些比如說國安方面的監督條例比如說外交方面的監督條例如果你可以有這些條例的時候那麼你針對所謂國家機密特權那你為了立法上面的需求為了監督上面的需求所以你必須行政部門要來跟你所謂的協商行政部門必須要來跟你在所謂這個過程當中來進行包含意見的陳述"},{"start":10900.205,"end":10916.862,"text":"包含這個他如果不來的話可能進行所謂的處罰這個時候也才有可能真的去打到所謂國家機密特權也就是簡單講就是把總統的這一些權力納入到未來在修法上面除了我覺得修調查權以外立調查權的法之外"},{"start":10917.242,"end":10930.128,"text":"把這一些國家機密特權的相關監督的辦法把它納入到立法的過程裡面來他才有可能真正去調查到有效監督行政機關國家機密特權的這件事情好那這個問題其實"},{"start":10932.132,"end":10950.835,"text":"從學理上面來看那簡單來講我剛講第一點其實我們要講行政機關我們的雙手掌自治下總統是一個行政機關第二個是我們在雙手掌自治下總統其實也因為他作為一個這個叫民選的機關所以他一樣有所謂的立法權"},{"start":10951.576,"end":10973.028,"text":"那總統的立法權其實就是國家機密特權他其實他會有所謂的國安這個國防兩岸外交或者是他這個包含各位所熟知的就是他包含這個叫這個法令權啊或者是他去提請公民投票這一些權利其實這個是立法院如果想要在調查權行使上面有效監督到真正實質影響行政權運作的總統這個行政機關的時候其實應該在"},{"start":10976.59,"end":10977.971,"text":"非常謝謝張教授的發言,接下來有請紀俊成教授發言"},{"start":11011.742,"end":11038.365,"text":"公聽會召集委員、總務委員、各位學者專家以及議會的中央政府的官員大家好我想今天有機會參加這個公聽會我個人是覺得我們在建立制度的時候不應該考慮到哪個黨而是要考慮哪個制度的可行性"},{"start":11039.71,"end":11066.571,"text":"今天這個調查權的問題在幾十年前我就寫過文章我就批判一定要實施結果國民黨就被擋了擋去最後今天還要來討論這個問題基本上我們整個國家的政黨最大的缺點就是以政黨自己的利益來考量"},{"start":11068.454,"end":11090.036,"text":"財政司法很重要,大家都說要修改,結果國民黨執政不修改民進黨執政16年也沒有修改,為什麼?因為現行的制度對他有利嘛,他不修改我是覺得這樣的話,如果有一天你變成一個在野的時候,你就後悔了"},{"start":11092.128,"end":11114.108,"text":"調查權在民進黨在野的時候一直在提出來一定要定搞不好弄出來一個調閱權好不容易585號解釋成全了調查權這都是說明有一黨之私的話制度是不會健全的"},{"start":11115.643,"end":11128.72,"text":"我個人今天來參加這個公聽會我是沒有黨派的我是無黨籍的我是認為這個制度的建立一定要非常的慎重"},{"start":11129.895,"end":11155.902,"text":"非常的周圓來考量但事實上有它的急迫性可能啊要周圓也有困難不過我大體上來講我是認為既然大法官580號解釋已經很明確的說明立法委員立法院有這個調查權那這個調查權和監察院的調查權是不一樣的"},{"start":11157.852,"end":11183.954,"text":"剛剛有學者談到五權分立的事情各位要了解當時賦予監察院的調查權那是因為監察院也是國會的一部分考量之下的所以那時候的調查權賦予國會的監察院而不是賦予國會的立法院現在監察院已經啊形成為一個準司法機關不具有這個國會的一個"},{"start":11186.434,"end":11208.107,"text":"特質而功能所以說我們在考慮這個問題的時候有必要了解以現在的憲法徵修條文裡面對於有關總統的彈劾乃至於罷免等等都賦予了立法院的前者他有提以前所以我是覺得"},{"start":11209.366,"end":11237.159,"text":"我們今天來談這個調查權的時候可能要有一個整體的考量雖然立法院的職權刑事法裡面已經有若干的條文有一些規定但是坦白講都沒有提到調查權的問題所以我是建議我們立法院應該趁這個機會大家在關心這個題目的時候我們前面的"},{"start":11239.1,"end":11249.812,"text":"修正立法院的逐減行政法把不管是彈劾的部分也好或是罷免的部分可能要受起調查的部分都應該納進來以備不時之需"},{"start":11253.291,"end":11277.28,"text":"再來就是對於這個文件的調閱權的處理這個部分把他改為調查權調查權的處理的行使然後把這個調查權應該立法做一個立法機關做一個國會他應該怎麼做的比較是一個理性的調查制度的話"},{"start":11278.32,"end":11302.513,"text":"那麼經過協商,乃至於委託學者專家做一個研究,定出來一個制度那麼未來如果有需要行使的時候,就不會有要補貨網了所以我是覺得可以這樣來做,但是現階段來講,我覺得大家都說國會要改革"},{"start":11303.439,"end":11311.865,"text":"那國會要改革,如果說調查權是最重要的改革之一的話那是不是透過朝委的協商從議事規則來做調整因為我們國會有他的議事規則,這樣來調整,賦予"},{"start":11323.72,"end":11342.88,"text":"不是這樣的完整的調查權至少說已經把這個大法官580號解釋的精神納進來的一個調查權放進去但是我想各位都很清楚的一點就是說營業秘密的事情營業秘密法裡面寫的很清楚"},{"start":11344.107,"end":11359.866,"text":"那既然有這個規定,那如果違反的話,他就應該要受到移民民法的制裁但是有時候,受到制裁也不是那麼容易所以怎麼樣的透過立法院現有的倫理規範"},{"start":11363.035,"end":11378.117,"text":"乃至於透過他的紀律規範來使他不能夠因為知道了一些私人企業的秘密來透露出去的問題當然我是覺得以目前的情形來講的話"},{"start":11379.739,"end":11406.181,"text":"最好是調查前不要擠移到私人企業因為這是蠻複雜的只要和企業有關都和錢有關所以你說我不洩漏我就可以透過各種過程達到這個目的所以說以目前的法律不備的話不賤錢的情況之下我是比較認為所謂調查我們是現在你在對公部門的調查"},{"start":11407.779,"end":11426.006,"text":"那麼公部門如果還有涉及到私人企業的情形的時候那麼依請司法機關調查我想如果這樣的話這個問題就會減少相對來講我們立法院的形象還可以建立起來"},{"start":11427.186,"end":11456.23,"text":"剛剛有一些教授提到 立法院好像沒事做我個人是覺得立法院事情很多要不要做而已 不是沒事做問題是該怎麼做 也不是說要做就亂做我是覺得大家都照理性的問證的一個基礎上來設計制度使我們這個調查權能夠逐漸的來形成一個完整的制度我想這樣是最可行的 謝謝各位"},{"start":11458.066,"end":11462.813,"text":"好 謝謝我們季教授的發言接下來有請黎家維副研究員進行發言 謝謝"},{"start":11471.909,"end":11487.691,"text":"主席、各位委員還有在場來賓先進大家好我是國家政策研究基金會的副研究員李家維其實我研究所畢業後第一分分都是進了立法院我在第5屆的時候在這邊當助理今天有點回娘家的感覺所以我當然要幫立法院多講一些話"},{"start":11488.905,"end":11517.951,"text":"那我覺得呢今天其實從昨天和今天還有上個禮拜的公聽會我大概拜讀了大家的意見我覺得有三個可能隱藏的假設就是我覺得我是打問號第一個就是大家認為說立法院有調查權代表立法院的擴權這是第一個第一個疑問第二個立法院有調查權就會跟其他權力機關像監察院啊司法院或行政院調查的一些東西會有衝突第三個就是"},{"start":11518.882,"end":11546.004,"text":"好像只有立法院在行使調查選會出現洩密的問題會出現侵犯營業秘密的問題是嗎我一次就這三個問題進行回答就是說其實今天當然大家很多學生都知道會有這個立法院聽證調查的這個公聽會會在討論這個議題就是顯然就是行政立法不一致的一個政治現實的結果其實國內研究政治或憲政的學生都知道"},{"start":11547.042,"end":11567.694,"text":"我們國內沒有人會認為立法權很大的都會認為行政權獨大尤其我們憲政實際運作上面大家都會擔心總統的權力非常大沒有人擔心立法院的權力會但是一談到要賦予立法院一個調查權的時候大家都覺得說立法院要擴權了其實我們應該把焦點放在我們要如何"},{"start":11569.184,"end":11586.562,"text":"自衡或監督一個已經權力非常大的行政機關讓立法院有足夠的工具而不是其實我總是聽到人家說我們立法院是行政院的立法局請問各位有聽過人家說這個行政院是立法院的行政執行處嗎"},{"start":11589.305,"end":11606.556,"text":"從來在國內的學者是沒有這樣講所以兩院的權力的失衡其實現在是我們更擔心其實我不擔心給立法院更大的權力而且這個所謂調查聽證權是一個輔助性的權力我們並沒有在憲法上另外增設給立法院其他的權力 沒有"},{"start":11607.256,"end":11632.05,"text":"他只是透過這個輔助性的工具能夠讓他原來的職權行使得更完善那目的呢立法院的目的不是在監督民眾是在監督行政官員監督政府所以我說有很多擔心我們會侵犯民眾權益這有但是我覺得這個問題我覺得可能把立法院的威脅性想得太大其實立法院沒有那麼恐怖加上所謂的聽證調查"},{"start":11634.425,"end":11645.772,"text":"585講 聽證調查要發動 要院會同意 院會要什麼至少二分之一如果像剛剛很多學者講的未來如果我們行政立法繼續合一我現在就算立法院調查權法制化以後有發動的機會嗎"},{"start":11647.557,"end":11650.319,"text":"立法院對違反強制法環的裁罰也要院會同意"},{"start":11669.161,"end":11692.21,"text":"通過決議後送給司法機關進行因為立法院也不是他不能自己升堂審判嘛他畢竟不是法院啦那是交給司法機關來處理所以立法院權利要與其比起立法院對人民直接侵害性行政權絕對遠遠更大而且更直接這個才是我們做一個民意機關必須要強化自己權利限制要監督一個過大行政權應該要做的"},{"start":11698.177,"end":11724.65,"text":"立法院調查權就像其他院的調查權會發生衝突其實不一定其實行政院有行政院調查權嘛大家都在行政機關的在座的都知道我金管會我可以調查衛福部、食安什麼調查環保甚至什麼涉及到營業秘密我要給一個藥證或給一個科技的這個專利他直接就直接他可以他可以了解到這個所謂什麼營業秘密或民間的問題"},{"start":11728.038,"end":11737.777,"text":"那立法院呢這個我覺得這個就有關這個行政院的這個直接的這個東西我覺得立法院他其實比較間接那"},{"start":11740.506,"end":11761.374,"text":"我覺得如果立法院 你們擔心會出現問題 難道行政機關都不會發生其實往往都會發生 那我在第三點再講第二點就是說 大家擔心權限衝突 有關行政權限衝突其實國會的調查權 行政院的調查權 司法院的調查權衝突怎麼辦 沒關係嘛 我們就先run"},{"start":11762.444,"end":11775.477,"text":"實際上美國的總統的行政特權國家機密特權和國會調查權它也不是憲法規範的是一次一次權力互相爭對抗之後那個界限才透過司法裁判慢慢越把那個界限"},{"start":11776.414,"end":11796.566,"text":"越來越疏離清楚他不是一下就掉下來的所以我們可以先立法我們先做那有些東西其實大法官已經做了很多解釋了包括585號要不是沒有要不是那時候國會是藍泛藍的比較多他不會有585不會有增調會條例也不會因為扁政府他用585號去申請解釋釋憲然後來對抗然後做出585號解釋"},{"start":11801.625,"end":11829.526,"text":"講出了調查權6月7號一樣啊司法在審判這個總統機密特權的時候發生衝突了那麼可以請大法官做解釋啊他就把那個所謂總統機密特權他司法所謂能不能觸碰到總統機密特權到底界線在哪他會越畫越清楚其實國會調查權一樣我們就大膽給他嘛給他之後他跟其他權限跟監察權跟這個司法權有什麼衝突的地方我們有衝突可以救濟啊"},{"start":11830.694,"end":11845.88,"text":"立法院可以提醒申請現在叫做憲法裁判我們透過一次一次的憲法裁判我們會把權力的界限慢慢畫清楚不要我們不需要就是說自己啊現在就自己怕東怕西的啊這果足不前啊585要通過20年了嘛"},{"start":11847.196,"end":11875.076,"text":"大家都說因為我怕這個會侵權我怕侵犯別人權利所以我就不行使這個有點因噎廢死你就把他行使那當然不是說亂行使這個權利因為立法院畢竟是合一之機關他信這個權利的時候他慢慢有有權利衝突的時候我們透過司法途徑或透過協商建立慣例這是大法官指示的方向甚至總統的願即調解權也可以出來那回到今天的提綱的部分有關國家機密特權就我剛才有稍微提到"},{"start":11876.147,"end":11898.4,"text":"行政機關會碰到的或法院在審判會碰到機密案件怎麼辦怎麼處理立法院會碰到怎麼處理立法院就比照行政機關嘛比照司法就法院他要怎麼審理機密案件怎麼會不能處理呢我們包括大家會擔心說我立法院現在洩密的問題其實我們刑法刑法很多洩密的規定啊132條瀆職罪有洩密的刑法的300"},{"start":11908.533,"end":11920.601,"text":"立法委員是有言論的免責權在院內他可能沒有刑事豁免權你要洩漏國防機密或國防以外的機密他這樣是可以追究責任包括營業秘密同樣也是如此"},{"start":11922.881,"end":11947.806,"text":"我倒不擔心立法院洩密有沒有追究其實唯一的問題在立法院助理的部分因為有關刑法適用對象公務員、廣義公務員、立法院職員都沒有問題但是唯一就是立法院的助理這個部分可能要補充規範另外講到國家機密就是剛才講到的這個部分而且我們國家機密保護法"},{"start":11949.881,"end":11963.459,"text":"立法院也有為立法院處理機密的規範法院怎麼樣審理機密案件監察院怎麼調查機密案件懲戒法院怎麼樣審理機密案件他都有他的程序但是我查了一下就是監察院在辦理這個"},{"start":11964.881,"end":11981.526,"text":"有關機密保護法有另外定的作業辦法這是國安機密保護法要監察院、立法院和司法院都要定的各級法院其實也有定立法院沒有,立法院本來就散見在今天附的資料也有執宣刑事法案、立法院、組織法案都有一些所謂機密運作規定的規範也就是說"},{"start":11983.035,"end":11998.291,"text":"行政機關不能拿著機密就可以豁免監督喔機密不是不能觸碰的耶機密是對於不能知道的人才叫機密對我本來就有權審理或處理這個案件的人像法官"},{"start":11999.272,"end":12019.644,"text":"他處理機密外洩當然可以啊那對他來講不是他只是必須第一個要要動特殊程序要遵守保密規範那保密規範要違反他現在有現在其實刑法都有處罰規定國安機密保護法也有處罰規定那如果立法院怕把他搬進來通通搬過來用也可以那行政機關怎麼樣防避的像這個保密諸位辦法"},{"start":12021.052,"end":12043.638,"text":"一樣搬進來用就是說行政機關能用法院能用的立法院通通也可以用同樣碰到機密人家能解決為什麼立法院就不能解決我們就要擔心立法院不能解決泄密的問題然後要另外做局另外就是說你不能行使這個權利我覺得這樣是就太過頭了第三有關私人部門我同意有些很多教授講"},{"start":12046.104,"end":12065.266,"text":"在觸碰到私人領域的部分確實很有爭議但是我覺得 如果第一部分我們謹慎一點我是覺得 立法院調查權初步行政調查權規範應該是中央政府 部隊 國營事業 政府捐助的法人還有至少和政府有巨額採購的廠商依照政府採購法這些規定"},{"start":12067.007,"end":12095.222,"text":"他雖然是私人 現在跟牽涉政府有巨額採購他該不該接受監督 我覺得應該接受監督啦他雖然是私人 我覺得第一步可以把他降因為我們當然很怕立法院有可能會濫用職權啊 隨便問企業啊叫什麼台商的媒體僱主來修理我覺得這個當然大家會有這個疑慮 我覺得這個東西這給我30秒先 對所以我覺得在這個部分呢我覺得是第一部分可以謹慎一點 然後我們再慢慢"},{"start":12096.345,"end":12096.605,"text":"政府採購法"},{"start":12110.253,"end":12132.54,"text":"其實有關那個剛才講到的私人營業秘密的問題你看那個政府資訊公開法我們政府資訊公開法對個人隱私、個人秘密還有公私的秘密他都說什麼樣他不是說都不能公開他凡是牽涉到重大公益的時候牽涉到人民生命財產安全還有他個人同業的情況下政府是要公開的"},{"start":12134.352,"end":12162.971,"text":"政府對民眾尚且如此政府對立法院的要求立法院本來就有監督行政的職責立法院要求他為什麼他這樣拒絕不是很奇怪對民眾都可以公開了但是這關鍵就在於要跟公益有重大的關係而且要牽涉人民生命身體財產有重大關聯性我覺得這個這個應該要注意那最後就是說最後做個小結論就是說我覺得國會調查在立法院看好像讓我感覺像什麼現在有點像那個社工號籠你就寫那個業工號籠"},{"start":12164.588,"end":12189.294,"text":"以前我們看了20年、30年國會在追求調查權大家覺得調查權是龍我追求今天有機會吊在這裡大家有機會把它立法結果有各種理由說國會不能行使這個權利真的龍出現有機會出現的時候大家看到反而害怕他我覺得這個心態可能要也是要做一點調整今天報告到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":12191.971,"end":12214.09,"text":"好 謝謝我們黎副研究員我們這邊時間先暫時休息一下等那個莊瑞雄委員過來協助接替主持我們請我們的林俊宏林律師稍微等一下那等一下那個莊委員他要過來那這個時間我們不然先休息先休息5分鐘讓莊委員過來接替主持"},{"start":12228.777,"end":12229.558,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12259.025,"end":12266.855,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12304.129,"end":12304.149,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12357.148,"end":12358.088,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12529.102,"end":12532.044,"text":"主席 各位先進 大家好"},{"start":12556.553,"end":12573.121,"text":"那大家聽了一天喔一個上午其實蠻辛苦的那本來表列我是最後一個啦所以後來又待會兩位委員要再補充那我還是快速的說明一下喔那我想從昨天我有過來昨天大概會談的都從585開始談起啦"},{"start":12575.962,"end":12588.678,"text":"我想國會調查權這件事情從4585號解釋我自己認為已經算是清楚了我個人認為585講的其實蠻清晰的然後在後面的補充的46274729一直在補充下來其實我們在於整個國會調查權能夠調查的"},{"start":12594.325,"end":12607.781,"text":"應該說國會擁有調查權這件事情這個調查權的性質還是一個輔助性的性質還是個集體的權利這些我想是一個比較明確的一個答案可是在這邊甚至比較大的問題點在於是調查權能夠行使的範圍到底在哪裡"},{"start":12608.822,"end":12629.762,"text":"那其實昨天我大概有提到因為我們畢竟還是一個五權體制啦那在4729之後也講得都很清楚五權體制之下我們對於公務員的不法或者是相關的違私的部分他是監察權的範圍對於司法偵查的案件、司法審判的個案的部分他是司法權的範圍跟檢察官的權責"},{"start":12632.805,"end":12657.663,"text":"在這樣子的脈絡底下我們的國會調查權它必然是只會限縮大幅被限縮在你相關的國會立法權的範圍內當然我們國會有一個特別的權利是彈劾總統的權利除非在這一塊有要行使這個部分我上次昨天也有提到是有所缺漏的所以除了這個部分以外我覺得在範圍的部分我想大家要先確認清楚"},{"start":12658.283,"end":12678.423,"text":"那我想回到今天的提案的議題的核心那今天議題核心主要會涉及到就是說如果調查事項涉及到公司部門的國家安全和國家核心技術的部分要怎麼處理那回歸到剛剛提到的一個最大的原則如果在調查 國會在行使調查權的時候只要不是"},{"start":12679.304,"end":12705.855,"text":"不是參加立法上的需求或者是他行使他憲法上所遵御職權的需求的部分公部門在這個範圍內應該是可以拒絕提出的那只要他所要求的部分跟憲法賦予立法院的職權沒有重大關聯性或者是這個部分是屬於國家機關獨立行使職權的部分或者是大法官所特別提到行政特權的部分這些部分應該都賦予我們的行政機關某個程度的一個拒絕的權利"},{"start":12706.755,"end":12734.548,"text":"那當然在這個部分大法官也有特別提到說如果這個部分有爭議怎麼辦我想我們的國內的憲政體制是清楚的喔你要嘛就找法院嘛那當然我們有個院具的協調的部分那這個部分都是一個很明確的一個權利所以這個部分的話其實相對來說是清楚的那另外的問題就是司部門的部分該如何去解決那司部門的部分的話當然在之前昨天大概有非常多的討論啦那都會有一些涉及到基本權利或者是"},{"start":12736.309,"end":12764.511,"text":"也有拒絕證言權的部分這個部分我覺得不再多說可是接下來要討論的是說如果說我們要進行調查我們的制度是什麼我們在目前的草案裡面大概都會提到一個點就是秘密會議就是要走秘密會議的模式秘密會議在現在也是有只是秘密會議的規範到底是什麼其實我在這一次的草案裡面其實都沒有看得非常的清楚因為"},{"start":12765.231,"end":12780.381,"text":"我看不到的是說到底我們什麼時候要開秘密會議什麼時候要開啟秘密會議開啟秘密會議的標準是什麼誰可以要來發動要不要開啟秘密會議那如果真正開啟或是沒有開啟我中間發現秘密的會議的時候我們要怎麼樣去轉換"},{"start":12781.246,"end":12805.742,"text":"那如果對大家對於要不要開秘密會議有所爭議的時候我們要怎麼處理這一些很程序上的事項其實在目前的觀察裡面我覺得是我們可能要再想一下的部分因為我們在這個制度的操作上我們既然要同意有這個制度的時候我們就要想清楚是怎麼樣進行操作那剛剛有提到的部分是國家機關的部分有一套它的標準"},{"start":12807.123,"end":12821.158,"text":"當然沒有講得很清楚我們國家機密法28條有規定說立法院依法行使職權涉及國家機密者除經解密不可提供或答覆但其以秘密會議的部分的方式可以進行這個是稍微有規定那可是如果民間呢"},{"start":12822.284,"end":12842.431,"text":"民間怎麼辦今天一個民間單位一個假設就講台積電好了台積電真的被大家叫來了台積電來跟大家講說欸我覺得這個部分我不適合公聽不適合公開我們想要走秘密會議我們的委員們覺得說欸我不這麼覺得喔我覺得這個要讓大家知道"},{"start":12843.997,"end":12858.362,"text":"這個部分我們要怎麼進行你如何去權衡臺積電針對這個秘密的希望的維護的部分跟我們國會調查權的行使的部分要怎麼去進行我覺得這個程序規範大家要先想清楚"},{"start":12859.742,"end":12878.892,"text":"針端解決必然在現在法制裡面我們還是可以透過法院我們可能要停下來或者是要協調法院在這個部分怎麼做判斷它必須要有一個明確的標準在目前的規範裡面我看不到一個明確的標準尤其是涉及到民間人士的時候私人的部分的時候"},{"start":12883.6,"end":12901.475,"text":"秘密會議進行的調查方式為了要請秘密會議當然是有值得保護的秘密在值得保護的秘密的狀況下我們必須要確保秘密不會外流秘密不會從中流出所以在這種狀況下秘密會議我們不能單單相信"},{"start":12902.756,"end":12902.776,"text":"民進黨黨團"},{"start":12918.26,"end":12928.795,"text":"所提供的條文就是說你來參與密會的時候當然你要簽切結書然後你要禁止提供攜帶相關的通訊用品通訊或電子用品他在175頁的時候講得更詳細剛剛前面幾位先進有帶到這個條文"},{"start":12933.562,"end":12933.982,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":12958.056,"end":12982.345,"text":"保護的時候當然你就要有相關的保護措施那我目前觀察到的草案的條文在這個部分相對來說是一個比較完備跟清楚的那第二個部分是當然我們在秘密的維護上除了在現場的維護以外我們當然也要禁止或者是限制期出嘛因為你在裡面維護你再讓人家帶走外面沒有辦法維護它其實就沒有任何一個保密的效果"},{"start":12982.705,"end":12999.102,"text":"在這種狀況下其實為我們立法院的職權刑事法第50條的規定確實也明白地講了說其實你就不能把他吸離場那這樣子的問題會涉及到如果我們的委員們真的不管了我就是要帶出去那怎麼辦"},{"start":13000.538,"end":13028.541,"text":"那這個另外的就是我們要設置我們接下來的自律規範我們像這種如果委員就啊不行了我就是要帶走說實在的委員要把他帶走在場的很多的議事人員誰攔得住他沒有人攔得住他頂多有人出來開記者會說誰把東西帶走了那這個時候我們是不是要賦予特定的法律效果我們有沒有要處理除了單純的自律送紀律委員會以外那紀律委員會其實在我的觀察裡面我們國內的立法院的紀律委員會我好像沒有看到太多的的的案子跑出來"},{"start":13029.264,"end":13049.149,"text":"那在這種觀察之下,是不是要其他的部分來處理?有沒有罰款?或者是說,真的因為這樣子後面發生了所謂的洩密事件的時候有沒有可能會設計一個舉證責任導致的這種設計方式來做相關的處罰或對應?我覺得可以想想看,我覺得這個是可以想想看的"},{"start":13051.005,"end":13071.324,"text":"當然在內部的部分的話 如果你是用電池記錄如果進行的話我相信我們在這邊所接觸的國家機密其實不會比私人企業更輕微都是很嚴重的一些國家機密那我覺得這個部分大家可以是想想我覺得大家現在都很喜歡參考台積電啦台積電他們對於資訊不落地的安管 資安的管理模式"},{"start":13072.325,"end":13084.915,"text":"當然那需要成本可是我覺得立法院真的也可以好好地思考看看這件事情尤其涉及到秘密會議的時候這個最基本的設計我覺得應該是很需要的那當然還有後者我們開完會之後開完會離開之後"},{"start":13087.694,"end":13087.714,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13104.434,"end":13122.07,"text":"委員來參與委員會的委員他們確實接觸到國家機密可是我們對於委員的後面的行程他是一個機密的接觸者而且我想誰來參加大家都是清楚的在這種狀況下如果要竊取機密的人或者是要重取得機密的人我想這些都是很好的目標啦"},{"start":13122.791,"end":13145.929,"text":"那如果這一些的委員出境到臺灣以外的國家或者到敵國去我想這些人都有非常高的風險因為可能是利誘可能是威脅可能是限制你人身安全或者是各種方式來從你身上取得機密所以在這種狀況下其實要思考的是不是我們對於這一些機密接觸者或者是機密的擁有者"},{"start":13146.937,"end":13147.117,"text":"立法委員"},{"start":13163.619,"end":13188.363,"text":"是不是也應該要設置相關的規範也就是出入境管理就是你對於機密接觸之後你的出入境管理應該也要進一步的規範那這個部分我只有觀察到的是我們在關係文書的第112頁的部分有這樣子的一個條文那可是這個條文目前只有看到報備啦至於細節的部分好像沒有不夠完整喔然後最後我是建議這個部分還是要有救責的部分再30秒很快就結束那"},{"start":13189.952,"end":13212.403,"text":"既然有調查權你要取得權利那相對應來說如果你洩密或者是資訊的漏出的話就應該要負相對應的責任所以我剛剛才會可是洩密這件事情其實真的很難去處理很難去追究因為抓不到那所以也許剛剛提的想法是說在某個程度真的出現洩密事件之後"},{"start":13213.531,"end":13213.832,"text":"莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":13241.229,"end":13265.12,"text":"謝謝主席我們在場學者專家還有我們列席的官員我想幾次公聽會下來雖然意見有所不同但是它還是有價值的那如何去落實國會的一個調查權還有聽證權來有效的監督行政部門那從這幾次的一個公聽會裡面本期一直在強調就是說國會調查它必須要有界限"},{"start":13266.363,"end":13267.644,"text":"公聽會８事由：立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會８"},{"start":13287.855,"end":13291.46,"text":"而不是讓人民被迫表態或以藐視國會經院會通過以後就會來送交檢調這個都太過於"},{"start":13301.952,"end":13302.192,"text":"公聽會：完整會議"},{"start":13320.999,"end":13345.065,"text":"在發動這個調查權的時候 私人或者司法人或者重要機密等等那這一些隱私啊 這個其實到底會不會被揭露或者外洩的一個疑慮或怎麼樣在保密的事項下都保護 這個其實啊我們在兩兆啊 不管是為哪一方戰隊來提供這些法律的一個意見的時候啊 真的特別要去"},{"start":13347.081,"end":13362.979,"text":"緊盛的去做一個思考本期要講的就是說不要太高估立法院啦真的不要選舉都很厲害啦但是呢制定這些法令的時候還是需要學者專家我們列席官員的這些專業的知識大家共同來思考第8屆林佳龍有提過"},{"start":13364.229,"end":13383.242,"text":"沒有共識第9屆我跟顧立雄我們也共同提案啦還是社會沒有共識啊不是我們人少是因為社會沒有共識我為什麼說不要高估立法院呢各位把它想想看喔你像比如我就先不我就不再去談這個什麼大法官的一個解釋了你去看看我們如果真的要落實國會調查跟聽證的話"},{"start":13386.222,"end":13411.776,"text":"剛剛各位學者專家所提到的整個國安餘力的部分你怎麼辦以立法院來講本身的資安我們的防衛能力就有很大的一個問題這個我就自己我都跟我們這個周秘書長我也去跟他去諮詢的時候要求他趕快去加強資安這個是整個世界各國相當重視的一個國安的問題我們台灣我們這個國家遭受網路攻擊的次數在亞太地區我們第一名"},{"start":13413.777,"end":13423.12,"text":"你據國際研究機構的一個評估光在去年112年我國遭受攻擊事件急劇增加了80%每秒鐘將近1.5萬次的一個攻擊發生那依據整個數位發展部的一個事前聯訪監控的一個報告裡面政府機關資安聯訪的情資在2月份一共發生的47912件意圖對政府部門發動資安攻擊那"},{"start":13438.084,"end":13445.468,"text":"如何去有效的確保整個資安維護的一個事項我們在資通安全管理辦法第11條就明定了你公務機關應該設置資安長然後他成立了相關推動組織跟推動相關的一個工作但是以目前立法院組織法跟相關職長來看的話"},{"start":13457.814,"end":13481.284,"text":"我們根本就連這個相關的那個資通安全的維護工作的主責單位都還沒有啊所以各位真的是太看得起我們立法院了討論絕對是一件好事我認為在這一部法令的一個啊這個整個國會調查的部分我們在討論的過程裡面啊那個最大的一個邊際射程效應就是第一個先逼迫立法院把這些治安安全的工作先去把它做好"},{"start":13482.403,"end":13497.593,"text":"那第二個我要提的就是說那個射程跟那個手段真的大家必須要大家要很謹慎剛剛我提到治安的部分你就說像譬如說我們都討在立法院都非常討厭秘密會議啊這個會議的內容會去外洩的一個問題啊但是我們也不要去忽略了來自於網路上的這些的一個攻擊啊所以本席啊我們期待這次國會改革修法過程裡面一併"},{"start":13508.968,"end":13511.269,"text":"立法院至少會檢到說治安讓他可以更去做一個強化那我為什麼一直在講說那個應該限縮整個國會調查裡面你這個對象還有那個強制力這個強制手段這個部分你不能過度的一個擴張我們立法院形象已經夠差了這種擴權"},{"start":13532.495,"end":13539.597,"text":"這種擴權的部分不要為了大家好好講到一個說國會改革要講得很大聲這才是很衝的一定是這樣子嗎未必 未必藐視國會 這個很空泛的各位先把第23條裡面除了那四項以外你要限制人民的基本自由"},{"start":13554.025,"end":13573.51,"text":"那個都要用法律去 你不能去違反比例原則那我們現在就又增加了一個藐視國會又創設了一個憲法第23條裡面所沒有的一個事項裡面這個就有點超過了尤其是你看歷屆的大法官解釋裡面 你在729號裡面解釋裡面對於司法機關的當然偵查中不敢"},{"start":13578.371,"end":13582.593,"text":"我相信立法院也不敢就算偵查完以後也不是國會愛怎麼調查就要怎麼調查也必須要立行使憲法上職權有重大關聯那個目的也不是立法院說我愛哪裡範圍要多廣就多廣那你也要非常特定這個範圍非常特定所以以這部分來看的話不是我沒有看到任何一個政黨說反對國會改革反對聽證跟調查"},{"start":13606.94,"end":13623.855,"text":"我們要的是說 大家謹慎來討論 這個射程真的要那麼廣嗎 要到私人嗎立法院是有言論免責權的地方 立法院是可以胡說八道的老百姓來了以後 你這樣藐視國會沒有據實陳述 做成決議送檢調亂掉了 四年接受老百姓審判一次 檢驗一次"},{"start":13634.462,"end":13656.757,"text":"國會議員是要這樣子喔那現在不是那是國會的反撲來調查私人的或者私人企業私人機構的國會有這麼大的一個權限這到最後都被逼迫政治上的一個表態這個太為難人民了立法委員我認為沒有這麼大國會調查權不管是聽證或者調會權"},{"start":13658.118,"end":13671.084,"text":"民主進步黨我們也贊成只是大家再來討論一下這個手段跟這個對象是不是要無限的一個擴張更期待涉及到國安的部分各個部門尤其是國會現在沒有資格跟人家談這些了你整個治安都完全都還沒有建立好所以貿然的這樣子把範圍過度的一個擴張的話"},{"start":13677.807,"end":13678.687,"text":"好 謝謝我們莊瑞雄委員接下來有請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":13717.024,"end":13742.349,"text":"主席各位先進以及我們在場各位學者那我們今天在討論的這個關於國會改革那主要是在落實國會調查跟聽證權這兩個然後說是要有效監督行政機關那我們還是要回到就是這一套憲法的一個設計事實上整個憲法從大法官解釋325號"},{"start":13745.269,"end":13750.571,"text":"325號解釋想得很清楚基本上這個調查權在憲法95條包括96條的調查權這三個字在憲法出現調查權的是在監察委員的這一塊所以在監察院存在的一個情況之下那大法官認為這個調查權仍然是專屬於這個監察委員的一個權利"},{"start":13770.683,"end":13774.128,"text":"他直接說專屬在大法官解釋說那325號解釋至今也沒有被推翻縱使後續的585號以及791號解釋他們都一樣去重申了這個調查權在監察院的這樣的一個對接"},{"start":13786.663,"end":13794.767,"text":"立法院當然在憲法的57條67條有講到文件調閱權但這東西你可以看到大幅大幅改變對立法院的文件調閱權事實上大法官解釋看起來大幅大幅對立法委員沒有信任"},{"start":13805.433,"end":13811.558,"text":"三百二十五號是在說什麼三百二十五號就是這個立法院的調查權在監察院這裡有八五五八五是說你如果要審視這個調查權的時候你有幾個必須是要排除的包括考試院他們對人事的一個評價包括司法院他們對於整個判決的一個評議"},{"start":13833.23,"end":13842.075,"text":"這個大概是在文券調閱權的一個限制那後來這個791號的大法官解釋也講了729號我剛剛講錯729號的大法官解釋他也認為說你縱使可以去調閱這個偵查的案件也必須要限縮在他們已經偵查完畢已經偵查完畢而且咧如果還涉及到另案的"},{"start":13861.022,"end":13888.935,"text":"這樣的話也可以等到另案也調查完畢那立法院才可以去行使這個文件調閱權所以在729號所以這看起來大多數對立法委員是真的沒信任因為這個沒信任的來自於729號他也剛才直接講理由了理由他說的對他說你文件調閱你自吸的資訊你使用應限於行使憲法職權之必要並維護關係人之權利包括名譽隱私"},{"start":13891.076,"end":13914.818,"text":"這就是營業秘密所以就剛才說的我們要如何落實我們立法院在行使權力的時候我們掌握了一些秘密還是說我們所去揭露我們在揭秘的時候我們是不是會涉及到隱私涉及到他人的名譽這部分實際上要做注意的這大部分我都說了所以我覺得今天我們如果真的要大家要啟動修憲"},{"start":13915.939,"end":13933.509,"text":"然後讓立法委員可以增大我們的權力,我們要有調查權我們要跟監察委員有調查權,而且我們這個調查權我們還希望擴及到對私人領域的部分,我們也要調查權我具體建議,這樣要修憲的時候,有些東西應該要拿掉就是未來立法委員應該要取消言論免責權"},{"start":13941.634,"end":13953.681,"text":"取消言論免責權回到大法官解釋435號435號的大法官對立法院的言論免責權很好很好他就擴張他就說讀了立法院委員的發言質詢提案表決甚至你黨團協商你公聽會發言都可以在言論免責權的保護範圍所以你看出來大法官的用意對立法委員質詢就是說讓你盡量講"},{"start":13970.277,"end":13990.388,"text":"你可以去用講的你講我用言論免責權保護你但是調查這一塊大法官解釋依憲法的一個架構下還不夠信任立法委員有辦法行使這樣的權利所以他把這塊的權利把它獨立起來所以這整個架構所以我覺得要說這個立法委員你現在說我要擴權到調查權的時候很簡單的那應該我們就是放棄言論免責權"},{"start":13997.071,"end":14009.434,"text":"否則你可以想像 立法委員有言論免責權 我又要行使調查權 我的調查又要針對私人來調查輸定公司 輸定企業 我都要人調查 我的言論免責權我可以亂講我講不服這人的 因為我言論免責 所以你看現在有的立委他就什麼事情就連連看 這人那人 亂看 看起來大家三個沒辦法 因為言論免責"},{"start":14027.841,"end":14049.407,"text":"真正立法委員有辦法透過他的質詢 把事情揭露 把事情調查完畢也是過去有很多案例 我要說馬王政爭的時候當時立法委員也是用我們既有的權力 用透過質詢台的質詢管碧玲委員可以揭露行政權監聽國會"},{"start":14051.629,"end":14054.955,"text":"劉兆豪委員把當時的特政組 把當時的黃世民 檢察總長 要做的事情用質詢的過程問得一清二楚"},{"start":14063.188,"end":14070.814,"text":"所以就是說我們透過質詢會有辦法每件事情查明、每件事情了解你現在沒辦法透過每一個質詢你就說我要擴權、我要有調查權這樣很簡單的具體建議修憲的時候要有調查權就放棄立法委員的言論免責以上是我一個建議 謝謝"},{"start":14084.807,"end":14111.949,"text":"好 謝謝現在所有學者專家及登記發言委員均已發言完畢接下來進行政府機關代表發言那麼目前我們有收到有三份包括來自立法院的書面報告以及行政院的書面報告以及司法院的書面報告那麼請問這三個機關是不是有書面報告以外的意見要做口頭補充"},{"start":14113.393,"end":14113.974,"text":"謝謝,我都很簡單的"},{"start":14144.233,"end":14168.415,"text":"謝謝主席那因為時間上的關係大概因為今天大家先者參加還有經過充分的討論以後其實事實上這個有關這個議題在585號還有627729這些大法官會議解釋大家充分的嘗試那麼大法官都肯認立法院有這個調查權當然包括調閱文件"},{"start":14169.036,"end":14169.056,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":14183.803,"end":14211.277,"text":"並不包括使用刑事法的一個手段那有關627、729這兩號解釋也說明行政特權或獨立行使職權像偵查我們用一個金門陸船落水的這個事件這個像在上在偵查中或者是海巡有沒有需要其他應保密的這個行動特權來做一個實際上的一個案例所以這個部分可以免受立法機關的調閱文件"},{"start":14213.058,"end":14230.937,"text":"那麼有關本部的結論就是國會調查權行使的方法跟程序要符合憲法原則那麼發生機關執權爭議的時候應該要尋學商那麼或者是以法律明定相關的要件跟程序那麼由司法機關來申請解決之"},{"start":14233.7,"end":14252.459,"text":"那麼相關的議事程序．調查方法．也應該符合憲法所要求的民主原則．權力分立跟制衡原則．比例原則．法律明確性原則．跟正當的法律程序相關法則的制定．也應該更審慎為之．來符合我國民主法制的憲法精神謝謝 以上好 謝謝我們次長的發言"},{"start":14257.808,"end":14284.679,"text":"請問還有沒有其他機關代表要做補充沒有的話我們今日公聽會的發言到此告一段落感謝所有與會者從不同面向提供諸多寶貴的意見今天各位所有的發言內容與書面意見以及委員審發會所提書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報並製作成公聽會報告送交本院全體委員以及本日初列席人員參考本次公聽會到此結束謝謝大家現在散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}