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220億一直到2024"},{"start":85.902,"end":114.089,"text":"一千兩百億一號特別條例呢分三年三百億合計已經撥補了兩千六百七十億加上你們現在已經送出來的預算了明年要撥補一千三百億加起來剛好就三千八百七十億來回到前一張啊收不抵之三八一八再回到第二張"},{"start":115.31,"end":142.882,"text":"政府給了3870這兩張圖講得很清楚就是如果沒有政府撥補勞保是不是破產請問部長是不是?撥補當然非常重要是不是撥補我就請你回答如果沒有這3870億勞保是不是目前數字算起來可能還沒啦但是因為那個危險的線越來越近啦這樣子"},{"start":143.53,"end":172.552,"text":"你什麼叫危險的現業額已經聽不完這聽不完這是什麼事啊我跟委員報告現在我們的餘額有1兆900多億是啊但是很多人沒有來申請啊那些人全部來的話你就病了啊對吧是是是是吧對不對對我們就是有些人沒有有條件來申請但是他沒有申請所以你還有1兆多否則如果今天那些有資格拖來今天病了啊"},{"start":174.033,"end":188.205,"text":"我這樣講我對吧那位這位長官這位長官是不好意思我保險司保險司司長是是是跟委員報告我這樣講對吧如果可以申請的人就是今天來申請今天就破產對吧"},{"start":189.606,"end":206.28,"text":"當然是有很多是這樣子嘛沒錯啊大家都清楚因為有些條件夠了但是他沒有來申請是不是這樣是但是當然還是要符合資格要離職退保啦才可以要離職退保如果還在工作的人也是不能來申請啦"},{"start":207,"end":209.402,"text":"對啦那麼我講的那個就是說如果符合條件的就來跟你申請就破產那麼就不夠了我們的水庫的錢水庫的水不夠嘛可不可以這樣是是是是嘛因為你說一兆多可是我們的負債十幾兆啊這黨的金量"},{"start":224.29,"end":250.086,"text":"這帳號算嘛對不對那個那個賴委員當然這個潛藏負債的這個部分是說如果當然一次大家都來提領的話會會有這樣子這個我覺得它比較是一個極端情境的啊你這賭他不會一次提領啊我們當然不是賭他啦但是所以我說撥補當然現在還是一個重要的手段之一是對所以你如果按照這位市長講的"},{"start":252.21,"end":253.15,"text":"二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算：僅"},{"start":267.475,"end":267.996,"text":"三、審查勞動部長列席報告業務概況．"},{"start":289.659,"end":313.576,"text":"原本大家對於勞保基金的警報的實現往後再拉一點一段時間而已但我們不會說這樣子勞保基金就全然是不用擔心的也不是這個意思啊你有沒有想過怎麼樣讓他因為你剛剛講一兆那你現在潛財務部長十幾兆有人講十五兆打個七折也有十兆你你你你這部長要總是要想一個比較長期的"},{"start":315.117,"end":334.783,"text":"我所了解的以前的以前叫勞保局的齁勞保局長第一件事情上來看他信什麼宗教他幾乎都是要禱告啦或者要念什麼的說讓他任內不要破產幾乎都這個樣子anytime都會破產啦這是很嚴重的問題你現在可以看嘛這個數字講的2020到2025如果不是政府撥補啊你就"},{"start":342.076,"end":362.202,"text":"對,很辛苦了啦!很辛苦了啦!我們非常非常審慎的在看待這個問題,絕對沒有隨隨便便。那也因為很審慎所以才覺得這時候政府的撥補在這個過程裡面是有很高的必要性的。你們剛才那個市長講的根本就不需要撥補的啊!不是不是!因為你們有一兆多啊!這麼多錢在那裡啊!"},{"start":364.563,"end":382.243,"text":"大人我們並不是不是這個不需要的意思一兆元其實是現在這是事實事實上面這個是現在的事實即便有一兆元現在來講一個很重要的原因就是因為少子化嘛是不是只有一個來講你水庫政府撥補或者是"},{"start":385.154,"end":392.337,"text":"寶貴提高有沒有可能寶貴提高即便現在我已經問你時間到了有沒有可能包括寶貴提高或者是砍脊腹這兩件事確實很大程度會影響勞工的權益所以這個事情我們認為要非常非常謹慎而為或者是謹慎的來思量陳建仁前副總統在推動年改的時候他是連勞工都要砍的後來勞工都沒有砍也沒有人反對了保障勞工勞工相對比較弱勢"},{"start":414.767,"end":418.309,"text":"但是用這個理由但是用軍公交給砍了兇巴巴的然後勞工都不砍還給他這個兩千兩千兩千兩千多億啊這個給他3870億啊就老實講這是安廢的但是但是就是這樣子啊"},{"start":431.304,"end":454.47,"text":"對,所以剛剛跟大人說明是說不管是增加保費或者是砍幾副這確實是對整體的勞工來說這是攸關非常非常大的原因所以我們在這很謹慎思考下面才會覺得說現在這個政府的撥補很重要也很關鍵啦那那那這樣講的話這樣講的話這個退府基金撥補也就可以了啊如果這樣講的話對不對那個部長啊"},{"start":457.659,"end":476.947,"text":"你在這裡是不是重申一句話剛剛你講的確定這樣就是最少在你任內你當部長任內不會提高保費勞保保費不會砍勞保的給付一毛錢可以嗎目前政策上面就是沒有要提高保費也沒有要砍給付"},{"start":478.047,"end":483.353,"text":"就是在你任內嘛是吧?至少至少就目前好最後一個小問題很重要的問題喔我們來看喔薪資佔GDP的比例啊現在都說華佔多華佔GDP成長4%啦當地都4%結果給勞工的只有43%台灣"},{"start":497.029,"end":501.716,"text":"美國給勞工的53%日本53.5%韓國超過50%這個嚴重的讓臺灣的勞工的薪資都長期偏低我們有7成的勞工領不到平均薪資部長"},{"start":513.712,"end":519.698,"text":"你有什麼作為說可以讓企業主願意賺的錢多扶你的勞工這是你該做的事情啊讓勞工生活不要那麼的辛苦可以嗎我很同意你現在說的齁"},{"start":530.529,"end":550.955,"text":"怎麼樣拉高薪資?第一個事情是現在包括我們現在在推動包括薪資的透明化明年可能是就你只要是5萬以下的薪資你其實在招聘過程中你其實都要揭露那這部分過去來看的話是有一定的效果的這是第一個第二個當然就像這幾年我們對基本工資的部分也持續的在做調整"},{"start":551.875,"end":579.743,"text":"那接下來我自己也在思考我也跟同仁在討論說有沒有可能透過像這個跟金管會合作那對於他在這個相關的ESG相關他可能怎麼樣提出一個能夠提高薪資或者是讓勞工有更多的分潤甚至包括降減低工時的具體的策略或者是行動的方案在這裡面能不能放入我加一點你可以跟金管會談啦我時間到了主席站起來了我尊重喔加一條"},{"start":581.67,"end":597.216,"text":"你告訴金管委說應該推一個現在不是很流行ETF嗎?加薪100ETF就加薪最前面的100加就放在ETF加薪100現在有個指數了"},{"start":601.597,"end":629.067,"text":"現在沒有這個指數沒有這個指數沒有加薪100或者加薪50都可以沒有這個指數我想因為讓人在對於這個金融相關的部分當然比我專業很多我覺得我們這些相關的做法我們可以來持續討論我們願意跟金管會來做用多方法的討論我們立委人文言輕啊你部長比較有分量當然當然我是說我們我剛才就跟金管會講了N次他不理我你就跟他解啊有可能有可能性的我們當然願意跟金管會來做討論啊對"},{"start":631.519,"end":635.863,"text":"一、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部中心114年度中央政府總預算案。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時13分）謝謝主席，各位先進。有請洪部長。"],["主席：有請洪部長"],["洪部長申翰：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：先請洪部長看兩張表，勞保基金收不抵支，從2017年開始，它的保費收入三千五百多億元，支出三千八百多億元，negative是276億元，一路到2023年，也就是去年的時候，虧的是446億元，然後今年預估要虧605億元，2025年預估虧849億元，這是你們給的資料；而勞保的潛藏負債有人講是十幾兆元，所以一個人平均要背56萬元的債務，那從2017年到2025年，累計的收不抵支計3,818億元。再看下一張，從2020年開始，政府撥補200億元，2021年撥220億元，一直到2024年的1,200億元，疫後特別條例是分三年300億元，合計已經撥補了2,670億元，加上你們現在已經算出的預算，明年要撥補1,300億元，加起來剛好就是3,870億元，前一張提到收不抵支3,818億元，第二張就說政府給了3,870億元，這兩張圖講得很清楚，就是如果沒有政府撥補，勞保是不是要破產？請問部長，是不是這樣？"],["洪部長申翰：撥補當然非常重要。"],["賴委員士葆：我就請你回答，如果沒有這3,870億元，勞保是不是會倒？"],["洪部長申翰：目前數字算起來可能還沒啦！但是離那個危險的線愈來愈近這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼叫離危險的線愈來愈近？聽不懂這是什麼意思。"],["陳司長美女：跟委員報告，現在我們的餘額有一兆九百多億元。"],["賴委員士葆：但是很多人沒有來申請啊！那些人全部來就爆了。就是有些人有條件來申請但是他沒有申請，所以你還有一兆多，如果今天那些有資格的通通來，今天就爆開啦！我這樣講對嗎？這位長官是哪個單位的？"],["陳司長美女：不好意思！我是保險司司長。"],["賴委員士葆：我這樣講對吧？如果可以申請的人今天都來申請，今天就破產，對吧？"],["陳司長美女：當然是有很多……"],["賴委員士葆：是這樣子嘛！沒錯啊！大家都清楚，因為有些人條件夠了但是他沒有來申請，是不是這樣？"],["陳司長美女：是，但是他還是要符合資格，要離職退保，如果還在工作的人是不能來申請的。"],["賴委員士葆：對啦！我講的就是如果符合條件的都來跟你申請就破產了，就不夠了，我們的水庫的錢、水庫的水不夠，是不是這樣？"],["陳司長美女：是，當然勞保的……"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛！因為你說還有一兆多，可是我們的負債有十幾兆啊！這個帳很好算嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：賴委員，這個潛藏負債的部分是說如果大家一次都來提領的話，會有這樣子的狀況，我覺得這比較是一個極端情境的……"],["賴委員士葆：所以就賭他不會一次提領？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然不是賭他啦！所以我說撥補當然現在還是重要的手段之一。"],["賴委員士葆：如果按照這位司長講的還有一兆多的話，根本不需要撥補，明年的1,300億元不用給也沒關係，不會破產啊！還有一兆多啊！"],["洪部長申翰：但是現在保費的收入跟支出確實就像賴委員剛才呈現的數據……"],["賴委員士葆：每年都入不敷出嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：還是有短差的，這部分在數字上面是很清楚的，這也是為什麼還是需要撥補的原因，但是也因為包括撥補包括我們基金的投資收益這幾年都還不錯，所以現在整體基金的水位目前是超過1兆的。"],["賴委員士葆：1兆也不夠啊！"],["洪部長申翰：但這其實只是把原本大家對於勞保基金的警報時限再往後拉一段時間而已，不過我們不會說這樣子勞保基金就全然是不用擔心的，也不是這個意思。"],["賴委員士葆：你剛剛講1兆，那你現在潛藏負債有十幾兆，有人講15兆，打個七折也有10兆，你這個部長總是要想一個比較長期的辦法，據我瞭解的，以前勞保局時代的勞保局長上任第一件事，依據他信的宗教，幾乎都先要禱告或者要唸什麼的，希望他任內不要破產，幾乎都是這個樣子。anytime都會破產啦！這是很嚴重的問題，你現在可以看嘛！這個數字講了2020年到2025年，如果不是政府撥補，你們就很辛苦啦！"],["洪部長申翰：賴委員，我們非常非常審慎的在看待這個問題，絕對沒有隨隨便便，也因為很審慎，所以才覺得這時候政府的撥補在這個過程裡面是有很高的必要性的。"],["賴委員士葆：照你們剛才那位司長講的，根本就不需要撥補。"],["洪部長申翰：不是！不是！他不是這樣的意思。"],["賴委員士葆：因為你們有一兆多這麼多錢在那裡。"],["洪部長申翰：我們並不是不需要的意思，有1兆元這是事實，這個是現在的事實，但即便有1兆元……"],["賴委員士葆：現在來講一個很重要的原因就是因為少子化嘛！那只有由政府撥補或者是保費提高，有沒有可能保費提高？"],["洪部長申翰：即便現在有1兆元，但包括保費提高或者是砍給付，這兩件事情確實很大程度會影響勞工的權益，所以這件事情我們認為要非常非常謹慎而為，或者是謹慎的來思量。"],["賴委員士葆：陳建仁前副總統在推動年改的時候，他是連勞工都要砍的，後來勞工都沒有砍，也沒有人反對了，保障勞工，因為勞工相對比較弱勢，但是卻對軍公教砍得凶巴巴的，然後勞工都不砍，還補給它3,870億元，老實講這是unfair的，但是就是這樣子啊！"],["洪部長申翰：所以剛剛跟賴委員說明，不管是增加保費或者是砍給付，對整體的勞工來說這確實是非常非常大的原因，所以我們在很謹慎的思考後，才會覺得現在政府的撥補很重要也很關鍵。"],["賴委員士葆：這樣講的話，退撫基金撥補就可以了，對不對？部長，你在這裡是不是可重申一句話，剛剛你講的，確定至少在你任內，你當部長任內不會提高勞保保費、不會砍勞保給付一毛錢，可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：目前政策上面就是沒有要提高保費也沒有要砍給付。"],["賴委員士葆：就是在你任內是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：至少就目前是這樣。"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題也是很重要的問題，我們來看薪資占GDP的比例。現在大家都說多讚又多讚，GDP成長4%，結果臺灣給勞工的只有43%，美國給勞工的是53%，日本是53.6%，韓國是超過50%，這個嚴重讓臺灣的勞工薪資都長期偏低，我們有7成的勞工領不到平均薪資，部長你有什麼作為可以讓企業主願意將賺的錢多付一點給勞工？這是你該做的事情，讓勞工的生活不要那麼辛苦。"],["洪部長申翰：賴委員，我很同意你現在說的……"],["賴委員士葆：準備怎麼做？"],["洪部長申翰：怎麼樣拉高薪資，我們現在在推動的，第一個事情包括薪資的透明化，明年可能月薪5萬元以下的，在招聘過程中都要揭露，這部分過去來看是有一定的效果的，這是第一個。第二個是這幾年我們對基本工資的部分也持續的在做調整。接下來我自己在思考也跟同仁在討論，有沒有可能透過跟金管會合作，在ESG相關部分它可能怎麼樣提出一個能夠提高薪資或者是讓勞工有更多的分潤，甚至包括減低工時的具體策略或者是行動方案，在這裡面能不能放入，有好幾個方法。"],["賴委員士葆：你可以跟金管會談，我的發言時間到了，主席站起來了，我尊重。我只加一條，現在不是很流行ETF嗎？你告訴金管會應該推一個加薪100ETF，就是加薪最前面的100家就放在加薪100ETF，現在沒有這個指數。"],["黃司長維琛：現在有一個高薪100的指數。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有這個指數，加薪100或者加薪50都可以。"],["洪部長申翰：我想賴委員對於金融相關的部分比我專業很多，我覺得這些相關的作法我們可以來持續討論，我願意跟金管會來做各種各樣方法的討論。"],["賴委員士葆：我們立委人微言輕，你是部長比較有分量，我已經跟金管會講了N次，他不理我，你去跟他講。"],["洪部長申翰：有可能性的我們當然願意跟金管會來做討論。謝謝！"],["主席：非常謝謝賴士葆委員的發言，也謝謝洪部長。","先宣告：在洪孟楷委員發言完畢後休息20分鐘。","下一位我們請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":196,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳瑩","蘇清泉","陳培瑜","林淑芬","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","羅智強","洪孟楷","羅廷瑋","麥玉珍","楊曜","王正旭","黃國昌","張啓楷","劉建國","翁曉玲","王鴻薇","張雅琳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-09"],"gazette_id":"1140403","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140403_00002","1140403_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案\n關於勞動部主管預算（公務及基金預算）；三、審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心\n114年度預算書案【所列預算案，僅詢答】","agenda_id":"1140403_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}