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12:37:27","會議時間":"2024-12-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案關於勞動部主管預算。(公務及基金預算)\n三、審查勞動部函送財團法人職業災害預防及重建中心114年度預算書案。\n【所列預算案，僅詢答，113年12月9日下午5時截止收案】\n【業務報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.78909375,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.392218750000001,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.168468750000002,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.67784375,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.981593750000002,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.977218750000002,"end":31.469093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.48159375,"end":35.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.51909375,"end":40.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.42971875,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.60096875,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.962218750000005,"end":62.586593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.62034375,"end":62.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.63721875,"end":69.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.33659375,"end":69.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.42096875,"end":69.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.45471875,"end":69.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.50534375000001,"end":69.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.70784375000001,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.02846875,"end":70.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.36596875000001,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.61909375,"end":70.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.75409375000001,"end":70.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.77096875000001,"end":70.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.95659375000001,"end":70.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.97346875000001,"end":71.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.02409375,"end":73.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.77471875,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.96784375,"end":104.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.30534375,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.27971875,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.18659375,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.34659375000001,"end":115.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.55284375000001,"end":119.64096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.33284375000001,"end":123.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.15534375000001,"end":124.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.55159375000001,"end":126.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.01971875000001,"end":132.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.19596875000002,"end":133.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.69346875000002,"end":141.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.06784375,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.28659375,"end":147.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.39159375,"end":150.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.45471875,"end":150.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.06221875,"end":152.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.13346875000002,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.93909375,"end":156.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.78284375,"end":158.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.70221875000001,"end":161.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.64284375,"end":165.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.38471875000002,"end":167.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.74721875,"end":170.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.95784375000002,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.73346875000001,"end":176.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.96534375000002,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.06659375,"end":177.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.41659375,"end":179.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.01971875,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.08721875,"end":180.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.82971875,"end":182.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.54659375,"end":184.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.14971875,"end":185.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.95971875,"end":192.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.02284375000002,"end":187.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.13159375,"end":195.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.60784375,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.75534375,"end":198.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.35846875000001,"end":199.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.47221875000002,"end":204.79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你的前同僚啊黃婕跟吳佩奕啊對陳玉珍委員的歧視霸凌就剛剛一個一個要件來講他們有沒有今天批評陳玉珍說他穿著潑入噁心"},{"start":183.581,"end":197.805,"text":"一大堆都有喔。 對不起我真的是忙到沒時間看。 對對對你太忙了齁。 姓平的主管機關的勞動部長關心一下去看看影片。 對我因為這幾天真的太忙了。 你今天去看看影片可以吧?可不可以?"},{"start":197.805,"end":200.526,"text":"看看你前同事的影片可以嗎?"},{"start":200.526,"end":211.589,"text":"不要欸部長你不要遇到你前同事你不要你前面講過了喔你剛剛講過如果批評女性批評一個人穿著破錄噁心"},{"start":212.888,"end":235.785,"text":"來說我們構成性平衡跟違反跟性騷擾說要看當事人的感受陳毓正有沒有覺得被冒犯你也不知道我告訴你陳毓正就覺得被冒犯所以今天我要請問部長對這樣的事情你認同嗎你可不認同你不認同如果這一位被批評的勞工"},{"start":237.312,"end":246.432,"text":"他如果遇到這樣子的問題在職場裡面的工作者遇到這樣的問題的話當然依法規他是可以提出申訴的"},{"start":247.7,"end":264.267,"text":"我問的不是申訴法國委員會是你主管機關勞動部長的態度啊推給人家申不申訴你做一個主管機關遇到前途啊你標準都轉彎了嗎陳委員我沒有轉彎但是對於現在你在描述我跟你講我沒有打算要你針對黃捷跟這個吳佩奕啦針對這種類似的情形啊請你公開表態反對啦"},{"start":272.925,"end":292.9,"text":"這是對於所謂我們現在關於性平主管機關一個基本的態度接下來我要跟你說啊事實上今天這件事情啊我看到民進黨的那個態度啊你以前當過當市民黨立法委員之一啊這個事情離譜到什麼程度你一定又說不知道我告訴你他們罵陳玉珍說他裡面穿著內衣暴露噁心"},{"start":300.954,"end":324.094,"text":"時尚陳宇珍影片出來裡面穿的是什麼你知道嗎?不知道穿是襯衫啊我真的不知道沒關係啦沒關係請你去關心一下是穿是襯衫為什麼會今天襯衫會變成是內衣為什麼就民進黨以為扯破的啊扯破之後再罵他噁心再罵他暴露還罵他碰瓷"},{"start":325.523,"end":339.63,"text":"那今天到這邊我看到我們的部長你就是一推二五六嗎?我沒有一推二五六我真的不清楚因為這個任何信憑﹖好啦我告訴你啦我沒有應該循機制來進行我不是在勸告啦按照機制進行那不是廢話不是廢話嗎本來就按照機制進行啊我今天為的是一個身為部長信憑主管機關勞動部的部長的對於違反信憑甚至性騷擾的問題的態度啊"},{"start":354.195,"end":376.488,"text":"今天立法委員我先不要講這兩位立委過去他經常就是標榜透過自由的傳達信憑的概念今天遇到陳玉珍信憑概念倒這個三千里他們可以倒這個三千里因為他們是立法委員他們不是勞動部長你勞動部長我想這個事情上要有很清楚的態度"},{"start":378.018,"end":379.399,"text":"公務及基金預算：一、邀請勞動部主管預算：僅"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":884,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時31分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好，根據勞動部今年展開的調查，2024年3月到6月一共有543件職場性騷擾通報。你知道公務機關有多少件嗎？134件，占總比大概是24.7%，其中成立的74件占比大概是55%。我想請問部長，像這種職場性騷擾的狀況，未來要如何改善？"],["洪部長申翰：現在因為去年性平三法修正通過以後，其實是有強化了，包括幾個機制，尤其是如果是雇主或機構負責人的話，當然現在有機制來處理的……"],["羅委員智強：你部內的一些強化作為是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得我們還是要來……"],["羅委員智強：你們是性平的主管機關，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，還是要來加強這部分的宣導，尤其是如果真的有發生類似的狀況的話，當然該怎麼處置就應該確切處置。"],["羅委員智強：很好，要宣導，如果是發生違反性平的問題，勞動部就要嚴肅處理，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教你，違反性平或進行言語性騷擾有很多種態樣，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["羅委員智強：我想請問部長，如果在職場上指責一個女性穿著暴露、噁心，請問算不算違反性平，甚至嚴重構成所謂性騷擾？"],["洪部長申翰：嗯……就看……"],["羅委員智強：你還要懷疑啊！不會吧？今天如果有人在職場上批評一個女生穿著很暴露、很噁心，這不是所謂的違反性平甚至性騷擾？"],["洪部長申翰：如果造成被指控的人不舒服的話。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，造成被指控的人不舒服，就有構成違反性平跟性騷擾的問題。如果更進一步，甚至還跟他講：我跟你講，你穿成這個樣子，暴露、噁心，你是打算要碰瓷，去告男性性騷擾。你覺得這樣有沒有更嚴重？有沒有更嚴重？有沒有構成性平跟違反性騷擾？部長，我告訴你，你剛剛前面已經講了，我要肯定你。請問你知道這種不恰當的性別歧視言論就發生在上週五？就是你的前同僚黃捷跟吳沛憶，對陳玉珍委員的歧視、霸凌，就剛剛一個一個要件來講，他們有沒有批評陳玉珍，說他穿著暴露、噁心？影帶都有喔！"],["洪部長申翰：對不起，我真的是忙到沒時間看。"],["羅委員智強：哎呀！對，你太忙了。性平的主管機關勞動部長關心一下，去看看影片。"],["洪部長申翰：對，我因為這幾天真的太忙了……"],["羅委員智強：你今天去看看影片可以吧，可不可以？看看你前同事的影片，可以嗎？部長，你不要遇到你前同事，你的標準就……"],["洪部長申翰：不是，我……"],["羅委員智強：你前面講過了，你剛剛講過，如果批評女性、批評一個人穿著暴露、噁心，有沒有構成違反性平跟性騷擾，你說要看當事人的感受。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["羅委員智強：陳玉珍有沒有覺得被冒犯？你也不知道啊！我告訴你，陳玉珍就覺得被冒犯，所以今天我要請問部長，對這樣的事情你能認同嗎？你可不可以認同？你認不認同？"],["洪部長申翰：如果這一位被批評的勞工，他如果遇到這樣子……"],["羅委員智強：職場。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["羅委員智強：職場，就是職場。"],["洪部長申翰：在職場裡面的工作者遇到這樣的問題，當然依法規他是可以提出申訴的。"],["羅委員智強：我問的不是申訴法規，我問的是你主管機關勞動部長的態度啊！推給人家申不申訴，你做一個主管機關遇到前同事，你的標準就轉彎了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：羅委員，我沒有轉彎，但是對於現在你在描述的個案，確實我不夠清楚。"],["羅委員智強：我跟你講，我沒有打算要你針對黃捷跟吳沛憶啦！針對這種類似的情形，請你公開表態反對，這是有關於性平主管機關一個基本的態度。接下來我要跟你說，事實上今天這件事情，我看到民進黨的那個態度，你以前是民進黨的立法委員之一，這個事情離譜到什麼程度？你一定又說不知道，我告訴你，他們罵陳玉珍說他裡面穿著內衣，暴露、噁心，事實上陳玉珍影片出來，裡面穿的是什麼你知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：不知道。"],["羅委員智強：穿的是襯衫。"],["洪部長申翰：我真的不知道。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦！沒有關係，請你去關心一下。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["羅委員智強：穿的是襯衫，為什麼襯衫會變成是內衣，為什麼？就民進黨立委扯破的啊！扯破之後再罵他噁心，再罵他暴露，還罵他碰瓷。今天到這邊，我看到我們的部長，你就是一推二五六嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有推，但我真的不清楚，因為任何性平的機制……"],["羅委員智強：好啦！我告訴部長，給你一個勸告啦！"],["洪部長申翰：我們應該循機制來進行，我們一開始就是說要循機制來進行。"],["羅委員智強：按照機制進行，那不是廢話，不是廢話嗎？本來就按照機制進行啊！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["羅委員智強：我今天問的是，身為部長、一個性平主管機關勞動部的部長，對於違反性平甚至性騷擾問題的態度啊！今天立法委員，我先不要講這兩位立委，過去他經常就是標榜透過自由的穿著來傳達性平的概念，今天遇到陳玉珍，性平概念倒退三千里，他們可以倒退三千里，因為他們是立法委員，他們不是勞動部長。你是勞動部長，我跟你講，在這個事情上要有很清楚的態度，反對就反對，不要因為他是你舊同僚就當作沒這件事。"],["洪部長申翰：這跟那個沒關係，我會來瞭解一下到底發生了什麼事。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝你。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員的發言，謝謝部長。","我們下一位請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":196,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳瑩","蘇清泉","陳培瑜","林淑芬","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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