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投資的效益啊那我那我直接直接直接跟跟部長談一下投資效益過去這5年啊108年到112年臺灣的加錢指數"},{"start":415.779,"end":429.087,"text":"不算殖利率還原喔。就是每年平均3%的殖利率還原不算。家權指數增加了13%。勞保基金的受益"},{"start":430.106,"end":446.064,"text":"是7.5%勞退薪制啊就是你們很常會發新聞稿或者是媒體經常披露的每個帳戶可以領多少錢才加減指數的不到一半啊6.5啊"},{"start":449.192,"end":469.268,"text":"那部長很顯然的就是其他的改革面向全部不做考慮那要談基金的運作效應效率我剛剛已經把數據給部長你覺得這樣子的效率好嗎我現在不是說我能夠了解我先講喔"},{"start":470.134,"end":490.98,"text":"我可以理解基金的管理因為涉及太多面向所以必須要比較保守這個我確實在一些項目上面我沒有辦法這麼靈活可是呢從另外一個角度看就基金基金"},{"start":493.314,"end":518.569,"text":"相對於一般的投資大眾是比較沒有壓力的投資者。懂我意思嗎?我覺得你們會不會太過保守?或者是說因為時間的關係我不大想佔用太多時間相關的問題"},{"start":523.513,"end":551.053,"text":"我會持續的跟部長座談我就是今天就要求部長回去檢討看看看看有沒有因為部長剛剛的說明就是整個勞保改革大概你所想要改的就只有增加基金的運作效率那你怎麼去精進"},{"start":552.551,"end":554.052,"text":"是希望它能夠穩健的累積。"},{"start":573.682,"end":588.356,"text":"這是因為這涉及到很多這個投資到這個納保納保人的這個相關的權益。不過是這樣子啊。我知道你們要小心啊。不過我跟我最後跟部長溝通的觀念就民進黨執政以來"},{"start":590.693,"end":602.737,"text":"經常呼籲社會大眾投資人要安心相關單位也經常對臺灣的民眾做宣示整體經濟發展審慎樂觀同一個政府裡面其他的單位一直看好臺灣"},{"start":617.81,"end":633.307,"text":"那作為執政的一部分的勞動部為什麼這麼不相信這個問題部長可以下一次再回答好謝謝部長謝謝主席非常謝謝楊耀委員的發言謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1178,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（13時37分）謝謝主席，請洪部長。"],["主席：好，再麻煩部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。部長，你臨危受命，首先要處理的大概就是霸凌案，看起來在公務部門的霸凌情況也不僅限於勞動部。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["楊委員曜：我個人覺得部長接任後最重要的任務與使命就是各項基金的改革，就安基金在勞動部管理的基金而言，其實算是冰山一角，只要人沒有問題，基本上，就安基金比較不會有大的問題。針對就安基金的用途，現在的規定可能有一些概括規定，最主要是主事者的心態，如果主事者將它當成就業安全的專用款項，也就不會惹出這麼多的討論。倒是勞保的問題非常大，部長也曾經在這個委員會待了4年，我想利用今天這個機會與部長聊一聊、談一談勞保年改的問題。","勞保的收支缺口其實是一年比一年大，政府撥補到今年已經是第5年了，撥補金額從每年的200億到明年的1,300億，等於占了勞動部公務預算的四成。有學者精算在任何費率都不變化的情況下，到2030年，假如部長像許銘春是一個長命的部長，你就會遇得到，先不要笑，我這個議題是很嚴肅的。2030年勞保缺口會突破3,000億，3,000億是什麼概念呢？3,000億就是勞動部明年一整年的公務預算。","我有幾個問題要請教部長，第一，本席已經針對政府擔負最終支付責任的修法條文提出提案，部長贊不贊成？"],["洪部長申翰：報告楊委員，現在政策上就是政府擔負最終支付責任。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["洪部長申翰：政策上就是如此，無論修法或沒修法，我們現在的政策就是這樣。"],["楊委員曜：但是政策會隨著政黨改變，對於具體明文化，部長的態度是怎麼樣？"],["洪部長申翰：我自己覺得可以正向的討論。"],["楊委員曜：為什麼我對這項立法提案非常的重視？因為事關超過1,000萬名勞工的生活安定，不只就業要安定，生活也要安定啊！每隔一段時間就會有人針對勞保示警，勞保快要倒了、勞保快要倒了，所以我覺得還是要具體立法比較好。","我再請問部長，你認為撥補是勞保改革的唯一方式嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：撥補是各種維持基金水位的方法之一。"],["楊委員曜：之一？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：除了這個之外，部長認為有什麼改革方向？"],["洪部長申翰：這幾年來，包括我們的勞保基金在很多投資上的效益其實也是滿好的，也包括納保或給付上的審核都有做一些精進。我不會說勞保基金沒有危機，但是上述那些不同作法也讓目前勞保基金存量的水位確實有提高，所以我們不會放棄各種做法。"],["楊委員曜：部長是否贊成費率調高？"],["洪部長申翰：無論是費率調整或是砍給付，目前我們在政策面都還沒考慮到這一塊。"],["楊委員曜：砍給付的部分，本席以為絕對不可啊！因為現在勞保年金的平均支付，假如在臺北市來看，已經快要比生活貧窮線還低了，所以砍年金是絕對不可行的事。甚至本席還想要求，看要如何將通貨膨脹係數一起納入年金的給付，所以砍年金是不可能啦！你也不考慮調整費率嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：目前還沒考慮這個。"],["楊委員曜：退休年齡呢？強制退休年齡，也就是延後退休？"],["陳司長美女：報告委員，現在是……"],["楊委員曜：這個是誰？"],["陳司長美女：保險司的司長。我們本來從98年實施年金開始就採逐步提高，今年113年是64歲，到115年的時候……"],["楊委員曜：65歲就停了嘛！"],["陳司長美女：對，65……"],["楊委員曜：我現在的意思是會不會再延後？你們的政策怎麼樣？政策是司長講或是部長講？"],["洪部長申翰：現在我們的做法確實就是撥補，希望能夠再提高投資的效益，以及剛剛說的納保與給付審核的精進。"],["楊委員曜：我就直接與部長談投資的效益，過去的5年，從108年到112年，臺灣的加權指數不算殖利率還原喔！就是每年平均3%的殖利率還原不算，加權指數增加了13%，勞保基金的收益是7.5%，勞退新制，也就是你們很常會發新聞稿或是媒體經常披露的，每個帳戶可以領多少錢，但是不到加權指數的一半，6.5啊！很顯然的，部長對於其他改革面向全部不做考慮，既然要談基金的運作效益，剛剛我也已經把數據給部長看了，你認為這樣的效益好嗎？我可以理解基金的管理因為涉及太多面向，所以必須要比較保守，這個我……"],["洪部長申翰：確實在一些項目上，我們沒辦法這麼靈活。"],["楊委員曜：對，但是從另外一個角度看，基金相對於一般投資大眾是比較沒有壓力的投資者，懂我的意思嗎？我覺得你們會不會太過保守？因為時間的關係，我不太想佔用太多時間，我會針對相關的問題持續與部長探討。"],["洪部長申翰：好。"],["楊委員曜：今天我要求部長回去檢討看看，因為部長剛剛的說明聽起來，針對整個勞保的改革，你所想要改的就只有增加基金的運作效益，那麼你要如何精進，讓它的收益提高？"],["洪部長申翰：確實與整體的大盤相比，基金的投資與運作沒辦法像整體大盤這麼樣的靈活。"],["楊委員曜：我知道。"],["洪部長申翰：尤其基金投資還有一個很重要的原則就是穩健，也是希望它能夠穩健的累積，因為這個涉及到納保人相關的權益。"],["楊委員曜：我知道你們要小心，不過，最後我要與部長溝通一個觀念，民進黨執政以來，經常性的呼籲社會大眾、投資人要安心，相關單位也經常對臺灣民眾宣示，整體經濟發展審慎樂觀。同一個政府裡面，其他的單位一直看好臺灣，作為執政一部分的勞動部，為什麼這麼不相信？這個問題，部長可以下一次再回答。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["楊委員曜：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：非常謝謝楊曜委員的發言，也謝謝部長。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請下一位黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":196,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","涂權吉","盧縣一","陳瑩","蘇清泉","陳培瑜","林淑芬","賴士葆","鄭天財Sra 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