{"error":false,"id":["158063"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":158063,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158063","日期":"2024-12-04","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-2-23-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第2會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-04T10:24:48+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-04T10:36:06+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:18","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6c9ad41bd34b9fe19b1f83ff0f4b6973ca1a359a53f99ce1bd03cff43a440a0f0ecafa458f489ced5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:24:48 - 10:36:06","會議時間":"2024-12-04T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於數位發展部單位預算。\n【僅進行詢答；委員預算提案於12月20日中午12時前截止收件】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.4990937500000001,"end":5.228468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.24534375,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.363468750000001,"end":6.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.36721875,"end":9.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.738468750000003,"end":8.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.78909375,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.13909375,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.42096875,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.454718750000001,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.539093750000003,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.606593750000002,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.61471875,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.875968750000002,"end":23.453468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.875343750000003,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.58784375,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.73284375,"end":48.360968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.377843750000004,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.76159375,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.18284375,"end":65.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.11346875000001,"end":67.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.74596875,"end":68.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.65721875,"end":70.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.51784375,"end":71.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.71596875,"end":72.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.34034375,"end":74.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.61409375000001,"end":78.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.16221875000001,"end":78.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.82034375,"end":79.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.07346875,"end":80.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.68909375,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.25346875000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":94.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.99471875,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.79409375,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.44784375,"end":121.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.94409375000001,"end":133.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.30534375000002,"end":134.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.60471875000002,"end":136.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.22471875000002,"end":138.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.97971875000002,"end":140.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.88659375,"end":141.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.10159375,"end":143.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.19409375,"end":152.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.64846875,"end":155.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.34846875000002,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.79971875,"end":159.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.90471875,"end":162.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.89159375,"end":164.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.23721875,"end":170.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.40096875,"end":178.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.82159375,"end":182.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.85471875000002,"end":184.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.21721875,"end":185.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.65159375000002,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.88346875000002,"end":188.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.59221875,"end":189.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.41909375,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.31346875,"end":190.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.91659375,"end":194.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.80221875,"end":197.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.82284375,"end":199.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.42596875,"end":202.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.98659375000003,"end":205.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.24784375000002,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.08284375000002,"end":209.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.29346875000002,"end":213.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.44909375,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.69784375,"end":217.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.35971875,"end":220.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.09346875000003,"end":223.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.77221875,"end":233.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.05346875,"end":235.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.63971875000001,"end":236.71971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.42846875,"end":238.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.87971875000002,"end":242.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.96346875,"end":250.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.84409375,"end":252.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.32909375000003,"end":264.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.95159375000003,"end":267.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.34784375000004,"end":271.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.12784375,"end":307.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.18971875,"end":307.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.37534375,"end":307.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.42159375,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.02471875000003,"end":311.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.96096875,"end":315.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.52159375,"end":318.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.88409375000003,"end":324.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.89159375,"end":331.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.99596875000003,"end":340.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.75409375000004,"end":349.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.96784375000004,"end":357.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.98346875000004,"end":360.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.14346875,"end":362.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.84346875,"end":364.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.91909375,"end":366.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.09596875,"end":368.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.55971875,"end":371.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.75346875,"end":372.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.25534375,"end":373.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.08221875000004,"end":375.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.93846875,"end":376.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.32221875000005,"end":379.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.86596875000004,"end":381.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.65909375,"end":401.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.43659375000004,"end":402.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.12409375000004,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.17409375000005,"end":414.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.75096875,"end":421.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.32784375,"end":423.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.28971875,"end":424.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.42034375000003,"end":430.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.19159375000004,"end":430.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.65971875,"end":434.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.76471875000004,"end":435.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.28784375000004,"end":441.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.40909375,"end":462.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.38471875000005,"end":465.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.25346875,"end":476.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.25596875,"end":478.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.06159375000004,"end":482.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.67284375,"end":484.76534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.18721875000006,"end":488.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.74784375,"end":490.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.27909375,"end":491.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.27471875000003,"end":494.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.78909375,"end":498.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.19346875,"end":519.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.5278437500001,"end":524.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.63659375,"end":527.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.97284375,"end":534.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.9765937500001,"end":537.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.6765937499999,"end":540.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.6047187500001,"end":541.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.37659375,"end":549.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.7803437499999,"end":565.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.6765937499999,"end":576.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.24034375,"end":577.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.21909375,"end":580.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.34534375,"end":581.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.9484687500001,"end":582.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.8090937500001,"end":587.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.20909375,"end":592.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.14096875,"end":596.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.07284375,"end":596.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.5747187500001,"end":599.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.4309687500001,"end":602.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.82284375,"end":603.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.95346875,"end":613.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.7747187500001,"end":639.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.94784375,"end":650.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.81534375,"end":661.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.06846875,"end":651.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.5578437500001,"end":651.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.35784375,"end":677.4440937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.877,"end":5.682,"text":"謝謝主席有請黃部長跟人事處莫處長謝謝兩位"},{"start":19.929,"end":47.397,"text":"委員我剛好也有機會在基層擔任過首長那因為現在這個至少這兩個多禮拜一個霸凌的事件是全民都在關心的那在這個問題的裡面我剛剛的感覺我們的訴發部事發部的反應我是覺得稍微慢了一點也是說當總統院長鞠躬道歉之後你們的目標就是趕快來修訂一下法規在11月28號20號"},{"start":49.798,"end":51.159,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":75.7,"end":93.901,"text":"委員表達意見,您有沒有彙整?還是還沒收件?朝委請問的是那個什麼的調查。我跟委員報告。這樣好了啦。那我們這個任訓司裡面的所有同仁的收件沒有?"},{"start":97.265,"end":120.294,"text":"跟詹委報告就是說就我們那個本部的那個離職率比較偏高的那個部分那大概確實我們那個瞭解就是昭緯有調查的這個部分那個方案那確實是我們那個六個業務室也都收卷了嗎?治安署每位同仁的反應也都收到了嗎?彙整了嗎?"},{"start":124.073,"end":143.036,"text":"你到底在做什麼啦我跟你講齁真的很離譜啦剛剛一直講同仁怎樣同仁怎麼樣我們只問一個這種調查最基本的第一件事同仁保密的甚至不具名的不要有標示性的反應起來啊這件事有沒有做"},{"start":144.229,"end":159.231,"text":"到目前為止有沒有做在11月20號他單位發生這麼嚴重霸凌的事件當行政院長下令的時候你們這個當然我想這個部長也是問題你要負責啦齁處長在做什麼在觀望應該不會到我們"},{"start":159.972,"end":183.998,"text":"我跟你講每個單位可能都有這樣的危機啊你最基本的員工的反應我們同仁會不會有這樣的一個反應你至少要有這種警覺性我還沒有爆發我要警覺性所有的同仁全部你們反應一下不具名的你們反應一下各單位的一個情況你自己能夠幫忙部長做一個反應哪裡危機哪裡沒有危機我講的對不對我是認定的速度慢了"},{"start":185.41,"end":213.759,"text":"第二位部長講真的你們算是整個數位部因為畢竟比較專業以前我們在部隊講說合理的叫訓練不合理的叫磨練問題現在這個社會發展到這個點上大概沒有什麼不合理的空間也許部隊還有一些其他我們在政府在管理這個部分我要必須給你們八個字就是"},{"start":214.819,"end":232.38,"text":"秦深說重話秦深重話秦深也可以說重話嘛不要講髒話嘛重話也講得出來第二個禮職氣也可以喝我說真的那我們現在因為在座很多都做我們的數位的專業的"},{"start":234.093,"end":245.443,"text":"我們都說理科人我碰過蠻多的真的很直就是平常就只管010101數位那他不知道0跟1之間還有100種1000種可能還有0.01像我們不是理科人我們覺得彈性很大"},{"start":250.948,"end":270.638,"text":"所以我是覺得對於我們所有主管甚至各單位二級的首長甚至科長、組長這個的部分如何做管理我是覺得這一方面的調教跟訓練甚至跟SOP是怎麼樣這個部分你要怎麼著手部長你說一下好不好"},{"start":271.999,"end":294.238,"text":"謝謝委員的建議的確這件事情就是讓我也跟部內同仁講就是我們要加強我們的所謂訓練教育訓練包括靈導統一的訓練也就是說剛剛委員講的很好我們要我用一句話就是我們要愛的教育鐵的紀律也就是說我們紀律是要很嚴格但是你那個在跟員工在溝通的時候那個愛那個字很重要所以"},{"start":295.259,"end":311.155,"text":"這個我們會在內部然後我們會再請外面的一些專家跟老師來跟我們做內部的訓練希望這個所謂的職場霸凌的這個事情在我們數位發展部不會再發生好那這個部分我還是第二個建議啦第二個建議說"},{"start":313.101,"end":313.121,"text":"委員．"},{"start":332.005,"end":338.109,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第12會期交通委員會及立法院第12屆第12會期交通委員會及立法院第12會期交通委員會及立法院第12"},{"start":358.038,"end":359.159,"text":"所以我是覺得怎麼樣在工作性質上面"},{"start":380.919,"end":405.489,"text":"不要到私人的個人的一個上面我是覺得這是一個關鍵的一個重點這個部分我建議這整個要去推敲尤其剛剛我們署長也特別說壓力這麼大對不對我覺得這個東西是非常非常重要的管理還是持續要做但是只是不要情緒失控這是我的建議那再來就是我們數位三件特別看到你的一個報告"},{"start":407.61,"end":430.776,"text":"強化打詐公司協力齁其中一樣剛剛很多委員講啊11政府短碼簡訊平台上路啦當然我講不幸中的大幸是因為他現在是用舊的2G的一個平台用車載著到處去跑然後去干擾現在可能5G、4G的訊號台然後他發出去那只有"},{"start":431.716,"end":441.563,"text":"中間還有二級的功能的手機能夠收到可是你知道嗎?其實不光是二級手機了那常常發的是Hokang"},{"start":442.475,"end":442.835,"text":"委員會提供的資料"},{"start":464.01,"end":489.777,"text":"看到一個事情不是111二級手機影響比較少而看到一個問題其實最認真去遵循推敲我們數位部、數發部最新政策的還有NC最新政策的其實是詐騙集團你有什麼訊息什麼可以代表政府的公信力公信力了他就跟上來你想想看像這樣的一個情況111"},{"start":491.337,"end":518.438,"text":"拜表政府現在大概我們網路去google我可以看到自己十幾個二十個包括我們監理站他特別專業各位111請不要擔心絕對不是詐騙他同時間在幫你宣傳的有345個單位機關嘛你們在整個用到現在也大概4600多萬通在發那如果你夾雜這個的部分等於這些宣傳的機關"},{"start":519.679,"end":526.942,"text":"也順便再幫忙他那個詐騙集團他宣傳都沒有宣傳了因為大家都說11是標準的讓你看看8月1號111的簡訊你就可以放棄記得111簡訊是政府發送的能避免被詐騙集團保佑111安全"},{"start":539.687,"end":541.188,"text":"所以我最後一個拜託啊"},{"start":566.796,"end":567.176,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":588.288,"end":596.441,"text":"手機裡面這個部分你們在建制現在花了大概兩億大概這兩年今年加明年大概會"},{"start":598.409,"end":624.326,"text":"的預算你們對這個自己在做花2億多的有沒有信心本身數位皮夾上路的時候對於這種入侵式的或者copy抄襲式的本身有足夠的防衛機制你最後說明一下剛剛也跟委員報告就是說我們這個機制這個東西放在手機裡面有多重的保護一個當然就講說需要你需要一些像生物特徵的辨識才能進到這個皮夾"},{"start":625.327,"end":647.938,"text":"那這個PGC用最新的加密技術再加一個國際認證的標籤PKI這樣的一個技術所以就是說這個資料在你的手機裡面一定要經過一些認證這個認證是不是商號密碼而是你的生物特徵然後進去之後像FIDO這種然後進去之後才去渠道裡面資料再解密才能真正使用所以有多重的保護那應該這個應該是相對的相當的安全應該了齁"},{"start":651.92,"end":651.94,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":416,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時24分）謝謝主席。有請黃部長跟人事處莫處長。"],["主席：請黃部長跟人事處莫處長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：謝謝兩位。我剛好有機會在基層擔任過首長，至少兩個多禮拜以來，有一個霸凌事件是全民都在關心的，而在這個問題裡面，我剛剛的感覺是數發部的反應稍微慢了一點。也就是說──當總統、院長鞠躬道歉之後，你們的目標就是趕快在11月28日修訂一下法規，20日鞠躬說要全面澈查，你們28日就修訂法規。我剛剛也問了，你們目前對於所有單位的同仁、員工做了一些調查，調查資料都回來了沒有？","處長，你來說好了。員工表達的意見你們有沒有彙整？還是還沒收卷？"],["莫處長永榮：請問召委問的是什麼調查？我跟召委報告……"],["魯委員明哲：這樣好了，靭性司所有同仁的部分收卷沒有？"],["莫處長永榮：跟召委報告，就我們本部離職率比較偏高的部分，就是召委說的調查的部分……"],["魯委員明哲：你的意思是說……"],["莫處長永榮：我們6個業務司確實是靭性司比較高一點。"],["魯委員明哲：資安署同仁的部分，你都收卷了嗎？資安署每位同仁的反映你都收到了嗎？彙整了嗎？"],["莫處長永榮：……"],["魯委員明哲：不是，你到底在做什麼啦！"],["莫處長永榮：跟召委報告……"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，剛剛一直講同仁怎麼樣、同仁怎麼樣，我們只問一個：這種調查，最基本的第一件事，同仁保密的、甚至不具名的、不要有標示性的，把他們的反映收集起來，這件事情到目前為止有沒有做？在11月20日他單位發生這麼嚴重的霸凌事件，當行政院長下令的時候，你們……","當然，我想部長也是問題，你要負責啦！處長在做什麼？在觀望？想說：應該不會到我們。我跟你講，每個單位可能都有這樣的危機啦！你們對於最基本的員工反映、同仁會不會有這樣的反映？你至少要有這種警覺性！我們還沒有爆發，但是我要有警覺性，請所有同仁全部反映一下、不具名的反映一下各單位的情況。你自己能夠幫忙部長做一個反映，哪裡有危機，哪裡沒有危機。我講得對不對？我覺得你們的速度慢了！","其次，部長，講真的，你們數位部畢竟比較專業，以前我們在部隊說，合理的叫訓練，不合理的叫磨練。問題是現在社會發展到這個點上，大概沒有什麼不合理的空間，也許部隊還有一些，其他譬如政府在管理的這個部分，我必須給你們八個字，就是「輕聲重話」，輕聲也可以說重話嘛！不要講髒話嘛，重話也講得出來。然後是「理直氣和」，理直氣也可以和。因為在座很多都是數位方面的專業人士，我們都說理科人啦！我碰過滿多的，真的很直，平常就只管0、1、0、1，不知道0跟1之間還有一百種、一千種可能，還有0.01，像我們不是理科人，我們就覺得彈性很大。所以我是覺得，對於我們所有主管甚至各單位的二級首長或是科長、組長要如何做管理，這方面的調教跟訓練，甚至SOP是怎麼樣，這個部分要怎麼著手？部長，你說一下好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員的建議，的確，這件事情也讓我跟部內同仁講，就是我們要加強我們的教育訓練，包括領導統御的訓練。剛剛委員講得很好，我用一句話就是我們要用「愛的教育、鐵的紀律」，也就是說，我們的紀律是要很嚴格，但是在跟員工溝通的時候，「愛」那個字很重要，所以這個部分我們會再努力，然後我們會再請一些外面的專家和老師來跟我們做內部的訓練，希望所謂職場霸凌的這個事情，在我們數發部不會再發生。"],["魯委員明哲：好，這個部分，我還有第二個建議，第二個建議是，因為霸凌事件發生到現在，我們也希望不要到最後走到偏差了，我們要真的把不對的事情找出來，不要讓對的事情連講都不敢講，因為就我以前的經驗，現在在政府裡面，說真的，八成的員工都能夠做完他的事情、能夠符合他的能量，甚至有三成，四成是蠻優秀的，但是有兩成需要你去關心、去輔導，這也是事實，也許有個3%到5%，因為我以前碰過，人家來罵我為什麼裝個路燈或者做個工程，兩個月完全沒有消息，不裝也沒給消息，結果我一去看，我們承辦人的抽屜一打開，半年以上的公文，他壓在這裡，這是事實喔。所以如果以現在的標準，我不知道怎麼樣跟他好好講，肯定要臭罵一頓的。所以我是覺得怎麼樣聚焦在工作性質上面，不要到牽涉到私人、個人，我是覺得是一個關鍵的重點，這個部分我建議要整個去推敲，尤其剛剛署長也特別說壓力這麼大對不對？我覺得這個東西是非常、非常重要的，管理還是持續要做，但是只是不要情緒失控，這是我的建議。","再來，有關數位三箭，特別看到你的報告，強化打詐，公私協力，其中一樣剛剛很多委員提到，111政府短碼簡訊平臺上路，當然我講不幸中的大幸是因為它現在是用舊的2G，就是一個平臺用車載著到處去跑，然後去干擾現在可能5G、4G的訊號臺，然後它發出去，中間還有2G功能的手機能夠收到。可是你知道嗎？其實不光是2G手機，常常發的是「好康」啦，你知道其實也沒有純2G手機，太少了！可能就4G下容到3G、2G，它有這種功能、它收得到，結果訊號一關掉，它又恢復4G了，它趕快發給群組，一看這是好康的，政府又提供什麼了。所以這種東西，我是覺得也不能忽視，因為我比較擔心的是，我看到一個事情，不是111短碼簡訊、2G手機，它影響比較少，而是我看到一個問題，其實最認真去遵循推敲數位部、數發部以及NCC最新政策的，其實是詐騙集團，你知道嗎？你有什麼訊息，什麼可以代表政府公信力的，他們就跟上來，你想想看，像這樣的一個情況，111代表政府，現在大概網路去google，我可以看到十幾個、二十個機關，包括監理站，他們特別專業，內容傳送：各位！111，請不要擔心，絕對不是詐騙。同時間在幫你宣傳的有345個單位機關，你們整個用到現在也大概四千六百多萬通在發，如果你夾雜這個部分，等於這些宣傳機關也順便在幫忙詐騙集團，宣傳都不用宣傳了，因為大家都說111是標準的，然後你看看，8月1日的宣傳影片。","（播放影片）"],["魯委員明哲：好吧，安全又可靠。其實NCC發覺訊號異常的時候，它也不知道詐騙的手段，也不知道111，你們也沒有辦法知道是什麼111、它的方式如何嘛！是因為發覺訊號有異常，在新竹、高雄有異常，去追查到底為什麼有人一直在干擾，抓到人之後才發現是111。","最後一個，拜託！數位皮夾，剛剛陳素月召委在擔心數位皮夾，你把所有的證件弄進去，弄進去之後，像剛剛所說的，它可以在手機裡面把你相關資料偷走，或者把你的功能都關掉，讓你收不到。數位皮夾也是在手機裡面，這個部分你們在建置，現在花了大概兩億，今年加明年這兩年，大概會花到兩億六的預算，你們對於自己花兩億多建置的數位皮夾，有沒有信心？數位皮夾上路的時候，對於這種入侵式的或者copy抄襲式的，本身有足夠的防衛機制？你最後說明一下。"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛也跟委員報告，我們這個東西放在手機裡面有多重的保護，一個是需要一些像生物特徵的辨識才能進到這個皮夾，這個皮夾是用最新的加密技術，再加一個國際認證的標記和PKI這樣的一個技術，所以這個資料在你的手機裡面，一定要經過一些認證，這個認證是不是帳號密碼，而是你的生物特徵，不像FIDO這種，進去以後才去取到裡面資料，再去解密才能真的使用，所以有多重的保護，這個應該是相對的相當安全……"],["魯委員明哲：應該啦？應該。我們也希望真正的安全，政府做的，到時候如果真的發生詬病，那種反彈的壓力非常大，我們真的不希望道高一尺魔高一丈，這種詐騙集團在臺灣天天上演，我們不要每一次各單位跟NCC都追在詐團的後面，我們真的希望有方法堵在詐團的前面，一起努力，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝魯明哲召委。","接下來我們請何欣純委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":286,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-13","speakers":["魯明哲","林沛祥","林國成","李昆澤","陳素月","林俊憲","何欣純","黃健豪","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","徐富癸","蔡其昌","許智傑","游顥","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","葛如鈞","洪孟楷","吳春城","葉元之","黃國昌","林楚茵","劉建國","羅美玲"],"page_start":211,"meetingDate":["2024-12-04"],"gazette_id":"11311001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["11311001_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢；二、審查114年度中\n央政府總預算案關於數位發展部單位預算（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"11311001_00005"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}