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背題名人好 後續我可能簡稱何老師畢竟從學界來今天是針對立法院今天來審查我們司法院大法官的人事同意權案我想這個人事同意權案最大的民眾最關心國人最關心的爭點當然還是在所謂的這個死刑存廢的立場的立場上面我想這個何老師應該很清楚說國人對於死刑存廢的態度從民調上歷史的民調尤其今年來民調來看的話"},{"start":58.53,"end":74.407,"text":"不贊成廢除死刑的民調高達85%那贊成的大概10%那今天第一個問題當然是要請教就教一下這個我們何老師你個人的立場上對於死刑存廢你個人立場是支持廢除死刑還是反對廢除死刑"},{"start":76.717,"end":104.81,"text":"謝謝黃委員的提問對於我來說我剛剛其實已經講過其實我對死刑這個制度我基本上作為一個學者的身份我是反對的但我也講過死刑這個制度到底將來的存跟廢到底要怎麼做這個恐怕也不是我個人作為一個學者我認為反對死刑所以死刑就一定要廢掉我也不敢也不能夠這樣冒然的就做"},{"start":105.991,"end":122.182,"text":"現在我認為我們的憲法法庭在憲判8這個判決裡面其實我認為他們也有考慮到一般的民眾對於死刑的看法因為我所理解就是說這個大法官"},{"start":123.202,"end":136.793,"text":"在做這個判決的時候也許他們會考慮到民眾如果對於死刑這件事情反對的聲音很大的話那大法官適不適合就在判決裡面很明確的就說死刑違憲"},{"start":138.052,"end":154.354,"text":"那如果今天就直接判死刑違憲其實後面那一些條件就是說一定要犯罪情節最嚴重一定要以自決然後呢如果是有這一個精神障礙的不能這個判死等等那一些問題都沒有了"},{"start":154.875,"end":171.485,"text":"可是大法官為什麼沒有那麼直接就說死刑違憲我覺得他們可能還是考慮到我們現在的社會一般的民眾對死刑這件事情到底存跟廢尤其是支持要存的這一部分的民意還是很強"},{"start":172.225,"end":200.795,"text":"那如果你貿然做出這樣的一個問題我要請教一下你有沒有思考過國人為什麼對於廢除死刑的這個態度這麼的堅決這麼的反感就是在你的這個不管學術生涯也好還是實務上的經驗也好為什麼國人現在對於廢除死刑有這麼高的這個反對的聲浪你有沒有思考過這個問題對於因為你剛才說你作為個人你是當然是廢除希望能夠廢除死刑但是因為我們今天討論的不是個人意見今天你可能會成為我國的這個司法院大法官"},{"start":201.295,"end":218.174,"text":"所以你的個人的意見或你個人的想法當然後續也會在其他的個案上面影響到後續的司法解釋的結果所以今天我要問的是說在你去做出任何的判決之前你有沒有去思考過說為什麼台灣現階段這麼多人去反對廢除執行"},{"start":219.63,"end":234.882,"text":"我當然沒有看到非常明確的對於人民反對死刑的這些名義有一個更仔細的分析告訴我們為什麼老百姓在這一點上"},{"start":236.984,"end":257.162,"text":"會還是認為死刑還是應該存在但我的推估這個是不是一般的民眾會覺得今天這一個犯罪行為人如果他犯了這麼嚴重的罪那如果不能夠把他隔離或者他沒有針對他的這個罪付出應該有的處罰應該有的刑的話"},{"start":259.164,"end":281.498,"text":"那對一般的民眾．就會對於司法．對於法律．甚而對於這個刑法的處罰．會撕掉這個應有的信賴．所以也許民眾會認為說．殺人償命．天經地義．殺人者仍恆殺之．你既然殺你就要被人家殺．但對我來講．我的看法就是．那一個古老講的那一套．"},{"start":282.378,"end":303.946,"text":"那一種傳統那些想法是不是真的符合我們現在臺灣人我們現在的一個比較自由民主的社會也是會支持這樣的想法因為過去也有同樣這種事情我講的是真的是兩種價值體系在衝突在討論那就像老師剛剛所提到的確現階段在憲法第8號裡面"},{"start":305.206,"end":331.464,"text":"司法院並沒有做出說死刑違憲的判決但它實際上它是在這個程序上面加重了非常多的條件在裡面我想包含說高檢署在這個研討會上面也提到了這些程序造成了實質上要判決死刑是一件非常非常困難的事情嘛所以導致這樣的結果那當然如果今天啊我應該這樣講如果今天司法院你直接判說死刑就是違憲那可能今天這討論就沒辦法討論了就沒有什麼可以爭論的東西"},{"start":334.486,"end":352.719,"text":"那就是因為今天我們之所以在這邊跟你討論是因為在程序上面在這種要求行政機關配合修正要求立法機關配合修正那就您的立場來講你覺得這件事情有沒有稍微有沒有侵害到我們立法權因為其他國家應該以現在來講已經廢死的國家他們當然經過了長期的討論民意機關的共識社會的共識所以"},{"start":359.221,"end":381.73,"text":"有形成一個真正廢死的法律的這個條文嘛那我們現在變成是用憲法解釋用憲法判決的這個角度去用程序上去讓這個死刑很難被判決出來那我想問的是說老師你對於司法院最大的判決去影響到司法機關影響到立法機關影響到行政機關的作為這次你們有沒有違反了所謂權力分裂的原則"},{"start":383.382,"end":399.663,"text":"對我來講就是說憲法的解釋其實它的法律效率就是等同於法律也就是說在這一點上如果在法律效率來講其實他們做的這個判決的效率其實是跟立法院定出來的法律那個效率是同等的但基本上"},{"start":401.364,"end":416.989,"text":"這兩個司法跟立法它的功能是不一樣的也就是說大法官在做這個解釋的時候提示的那一些標準你要死刑宣告應該在程序上怎麼怎麼做這一些對於立法者來講那到底立法者"},{"start":417.489,"end":436.309,"text":"在配合這個是不是要修法或者是說就讓那一個憲法的這一個法庭的判決等同於法律就依照這個來做呢老實講這個將來會碰到一些困難但在死刑宣告或者死刑的這個程序面上面老實講"},{"start":437.33,"end":458.486,"text":"我們希望這個死刑能夠非常的慎重只針對一些認為是犯罪情節最嚴重的然後透過最嚴密的正當程序去保障他我覺得這樣的一個想法是OK的"},{"start":458.826,"end":486.58,"text":"只是到底要怎麼做也就是在程序面上面其實有非常多需要去考量不只是長期辯護也有可能...你剛剛提到說這個憲法解釋等同於立法院的法律這個部分你剛剛有這樣講嘛這部分我是無法認同啦因為我講憲法解釋之所以是解釋是說針對憲法做一些原則性的這個說法跟判決但是真正的法律形成要件當然經過民意的討論立法院的公防立法院的這個"},{"start":487.84,"end":502.664,"text":"這反面兩面的論述之後形成共識或形成表決的結果這才是法律如果憲法解釋能夠成為法律的一部分的話那我覺得這個就是如果剛所說這其實某種程度上吸引開的是立法權的這個權責所以這是我的立場那剛老師提到說這個所謂的這個"},{"start":505.848,"end":530.34,"text":"要判死刑當然需要很嚴謹嘛那所謂很嚴謹裡面在憲法在這次的憲判裡面有提到說個案犯罪情節屬最嚴重的部分那這個是屬於可以才可以判死刑那就就像其其他委員都提到或是說這段時間社會上討論非常多次的到底什麼叫做最嚴重我們從中文的字面上解釋最這個比他已經不是比較它是最高級的最就是唯一的意思嘛"},{"start":531.943,"end":555.895,"text":"這世界上什麼叫做最嚴重之罪?這個你要怎麼定義這件事情?黃委員剛剛其實我也提到過這個剛剛黃珊珊委員問過那個最嚴重那個到底怎麼罪?以我的理解我覺得那個在語言學、語語學上面用罪這個字其實會陷入困難就是說如果我們用文法這樣的解釋就是說你是最高級還是比較級?"},{"start":557.059,"end":585.336,"text":"那相對來講那個罪其實是比比較級還更高但他沒有辦法很明確的講這種就是罪那一種不是因為罪這個等級有可能將來還會有犯罪情節比這個還更嚴重的時候那那個時候要叫什麼罪罪罪嚴重嗎所以那個罪其實是一個我認為它是一個等級的問題也就大法官在這一點上其實他想要讓我們知道其實是"},{"start":586.357,"end":612.595,"text":"犯罪情節是在比較的情況下這種情節會比這種情節它可能還會嚴重然後這個嚴重呢是我們不能夠接受的所以我們把它劃入到最嚴重的這個然後這個時候你才可以宣告死刑但這個標準我們不能接受的我們是誰是指司法院大法官們還是指正在參與判決的就是說在這一點上"},{"start":613.632,"end":634.717,"text":"其實要看各案的法官怎麼去認定按照各案的事實證據以及法官針對這個被告、行為人等等他的犯罪情節然後在量刑上面去考量是不是要給他死刑那這一個呢其實是法官在量刑上面給就是說"},{"start":635.629,"end":662.189,"text":"大法官給執業法官在量刑上面一個參考就讓你知道你要判死刑你必須既然對不起打擾了竟然提到了所謂法官的量刑那可不可以請何老師也說明和解釋一下你認知中的這次憲判第8號的所謂的一致決是什麼意思在這個問題上我也曾經問過法務部長也問過行政院院長當然今天你是司法院大法官被提名的我想了解一下"},{"start":663.031,"end":665.722,"text":"你們都一致覺得認知是不是一致的?"},{"start":667.748,"end":695.636,"text":"老實講你從字面上去看也就是說法官呢其實在宣告死刑的因為死刑是一個組刑中最高等級也就是說三位十月法官必須一致認定這個案子不管是在實質面比如說他情節最嚴重或者是這一個犯罪行為的人沒有什麼精神障礙等等問題然後程序也獲得保障的時候要三個法官一致都認為這個要判死刑這個才是一字決"},{"start":696.596,"end":712.069,"text":"但這樣的一字決在實際的狀況下也就是在量刑的時候會碰到一些困難因為死刑接下來就是無期徒刑這一個等級其實是很高的也就是說從這一級跳到那一級那對法官來講"},{"start":712.85,"end":741.769,"text":"那這兩級的那個量刑也就是在組刑上其實那個跳躍或者是他那個間距其實是很大的所以要認定死刑對法官來講應該是一個他個人在量刑上認為這個案子如果不判死刑的話他沒有辦法對得起或者是他沒有辦法去說服自己這個時候才能判死刑但是這個一致決按照這個何老師剛剛的解釋跟認知的說法"},{"start":742.967,"end":762.855,"text":"換句話說等於在任何一審的法這個合議庭裡面只要有一位法官他不管他基於個人的理念基於他的信仰或基於什麼原因他只要反對廢除死刑那這個我們或這位大眾認為窮凶惡極罪惡之人他也不會被判處死刑會不會造成這樣的結果"},{"start":764.084,"end":781.164,"text":"我認為也會這種情況也就是說在這種情況可能會變成說你要判死刑的時候變成如果有一個法官反對兩個法官支持你的多數你沒有辦法去說服這個少數的時候那這個最後還是沒有辦法去判"},{"start":782.164,"end":805.753,"text":"這一個事情因為縱使你法官是多數2比1你還是沒辦法判這個少數的法官有可能就會變成關鍵的一個因素也許如果有這種其他的考量比如說很多國家的考量在最重要的這種案件的認定上"},{"start":806.733,"end":834.983,"text":"是不是一定要一致決當然在美國聯邦他們有一些州是這樣陪審團但我們是不是要這樣做老實講這個可以考量但多數的情況也許他採取的是絕對多數比如說過三分之二那這樣已經算是非常多數的表決了現階段是這樣沒錯但是你是一致決的憲法寫字出來之後法院就不可能做所謂的多數決了嘛它還是必須一致決啊所以我說這個一致決它直接造成的結果不就是現在等於實質廢死了嗎"},{"start":836.563,"end":862,"text":"我認為實質廢死這一個觀念也不是真的以我來講會造成一些誤解或者困擾也就是說大法官其實在死刑這件事情上他並沒有廢死他只是要把這一個要件講得更清楚或者是把這個要件弄得讓大家知道死刑是一個非常嚴厲的應該要慎重的一個方式"},{"start":866.683,"end":866.844,"text":"主席"},{"start":874.283,"end":901.906,"text":"這個剛剛有一個新的這個刑事案件過去有一位新竹的這個逆子所謂大家媒體下標是逆子吧一個新竹的犯罪行為人他跟家裡口角然後放火把全家都燒死在一審判決死刑二審剛剛早上9點半10點將近10點的時間他的二審被判決改判成無期徒刑那可能當然原因裡面他主判判決主人的確還沒有完全的出來但是這就涉及到說到底什麼叫做罪如果我"},{"start":902.626,"end":931.262,"text":"把全家燒死了我因為吵架然後放火燒了全家把全家燒死那這個是不是罪罪及惡之人還是他不是好那再回到一個問題就是說按照現在憲法解釋裡面來講故意或是按照我們刑法裡面來講故意當然也是所謂的死刑的問題但故意分很多種嘛直接故意跟間接故意那像以這個放火燒死人為例我要講的是說按照你的這個信念或你的理論來講我今天"},{"start":932.486,"end":952.502,"text":"看一個人、看當事人不順眼我對他有深仇大恨所以我拿刀把他刺死這是一種另外一種是我今天心情不好我隨便縱火燒一個房子結果裡面死了很多人請問一下這兩者比較強哪一個罪比較重大"},{"start":956.271,"end":970.047,"text":"問我用個案的這種情節去比較這個跟這個對我來講我就會覺得很難用這樣的方式比較因為兩個個案也許他除了你的那一些犯罪情節"},{"start":971.508,"end":987.91,"text":"這一部分之外也可能它會涉及到裡面的有一些是不是這個被告跟被害人之間會不會有什麼樣的狀況然後採取的那一個方式會造成一些困擾比如說我在上課也提過這樣的例子"},{"start":989.492,"end":1010.71,"text":"這樣的例子到底怎麼去看就是說如果今天是一個強制性交是一個熟人所做的強制性交還是他是這個針對陌生人隨機的強制性交哪一個犯罪情節比較嚴重這樣的一個想法進去之後我想很多學生都會覺得那個比較嚴重這個比較嚴重"},{"start":1012.654,"end":1029.574,"text":"這個東西只能在個案情節、個案事實裡面再去看我也很難一概的用一個很標準切下去就是說如果是這個標準那就是最嚴重為什麼要這樣問?就是因為憲法這個憲判第8號就排除了所謂間接故意嗎?它等於創造了一個"},{"start":1030.976,"end":1046.077,"text":"他創造了一個間接故意用間接故意的手段來執行殺人的這件事情嘛就像以這個案子為例剛剛那個新竹案子為例好了今天如果我親手拿刀子把他自己的父親來殺死這叫直接故意"},{"start":1046.53,"end":1066.805,"text":"但是他今天之所以可能可以逃死原因就是因為我是放火我用放火這個手段我可以說我放火我不知道他的這個辨識的確是這樣講我不知道火會燒這麼大啊我不知道會把全家都燒死啊我不知道裡面有這麼多人會被我燒死啊所以他用了這樣子的空間因為你現判第8號已經排除了所謂進階故意了"},{"start":1067.305,"end":1091.916,"text":"那所以未來是不是會有這個問題就是對台灣的社會的治安就像老師一開始提到了嘛我們之所以民眾會對於這個死刑存廢有這樣這麼大的疑慮就是希望司法能夠作為保護人民的其中一道防線那如果今天這些所謂的最大二級之人他因為排除的間接故意之後他反而可以利用這個東西來執行他的目的那不就造成整個司法判決的天秤失衡了嗎"},{"start":1093.507,"end":1107.405,"text":"對於這個個案的這種尤其是事實或者是法官量刑的考慮點有時候很難去判斷的我覺得有一個原因也就是有時候我們會去量刑的時候會考量這個被告"},{"start":1108.586,"end":1125.76,"text":"然後在當下他做這件事情的時候﹖跟他做完之後﹖他到底有沒有回憶﹖或者他針對他當時做的那些事情﹖他到底有沒有採取什麼樣的補救措施﹖這個在量刑上面也會有考量﹖"},{"start":1126.34,"end":1149.466,"text":"那在這一點上面我們必須要考量就是也許有一些犯罪行為在當下是這樣可是事後他後悔了他覺得我當時太衝動了不應該就這樣想到什麼就做什麼然後他開始有那種後悔或者要彌補的這樣的一個回憶的時候那我們在這種情況下是不是還是覺得"},{"start":1150.106,"end":1173.342,"text":"按照當下來看,你該死,你應該死刑,那我們就判。這個就是大家要覺得說,這就變成大家常常講了嘛,變成好像比較在意的是加害人的人權,他們的悔意。問題是被害人他再也沒有機會後悔啦,這是死刑之所以到現在爭論這麼多,我覺得這是很大的一個問題。那再來回到這個被害者權益的問題,過去您擔任這個台灣法學院理事長期間也提到一件事情,"},{"start":1173.982,"end":1199.123,"text":"如果被害人保障制度進入後會改變法庭結構被害人加律師會讓被告變成依達多法庭秩序大亂但是所謂被害人的這個保護權益保障在108年12月10號的時候立法院也三度通過在席之訴訟法裡面把所謂被害人權益也納入了這個這個審判的過程裡面我不知道老師現在的立場上還會認為說被害人加入法庭什麼樣會造成法庭大亂呢還是尊重現在的這個三度通過的法律"},{"start":1199.383,"end":1216.892,"text":"我一向我的立場就是覺得我們在刑事訴訟一定要加強保護被害人過去只是保護現在還要更積極的讓被害人來參與也就是說讓他在刑事訴訟上他還可以享有更多的權利比如說他也可以去結問"},{"start":1218.372,"end":1242.568,"text":"這一個證人或者是讓他可以申請調查證據那甚而他對於這一個判決一審判決如果不滿意他也可以上訴但這一些參與的權利好謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝被提名人報告全院委員會休息五分鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}