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限制人民權利的方式來搜查"},{"start":2212.336,"end":2240.612,"text":"一般我們講強制處分大家所熟悉的可能就是所謂的搜索、扣押以及羈押這類的還有監聽就是通訊監察及保障法的部分在科偵法的話它裡面會有各種強制處分不只一種等一下我的部分會先帶大家來介紹說目前法務部的科偵法查案裡面到底有哪一些類型的強制處分"},{"start":2241.492,"end":2263.822,"text":"的定義和一般實務上看到的操作方式是什麼以及目前在查案中是如何來做發動的設計的我在簡介完科偵法這些主要的偵查手段之後就會由林俊宏律師來進一步就強制處分的角度從刑事訴訟法來講解我們對於目前科偵法的查案的想法"},{"start":2265.243,"end":2288.601,"text":"目前,像剛剛提到的最新的是法務部2023年9月的版本這張圖是這個月經週刊的報導裡面可以看到他把法務部最新的2023年科偵法的內容所涉及的五種偵查手段列出來這個和2020年版本其實已經有一些不一樣了"},{"start":2291.221,"end":2316.288,"text":"法务部也把科技偵查法改成了科技偵查及保障法不過從內容上來看的話應該就隱私權或權力保障的部分並沒有特別的增加其他的條文或內容但是在條文的名稱上有做轉變那我現在就一個一個很快的來帶大家看他科偵法目前所預計要使用的各種科技偵查手段"},{"start":2318.068,"end":2322.672,"text":"非隱私的空間調查概念是用科技方法對非具隱私或秘密合理期待的空間實施調查"},{"start":2336.926,"end":2362.288,"text":"所以一般大家所想的就是說在公共場所進行拍照、錄音、熱顯相儀偵測還有測量這些都算那大家會有一個疑問就是說其實現在大家剛所講的這些手段目前實務上都已經在做了嘛或是很難想像就是說在公共場所監警在偵辦案件的時候不能做這件事情"},{"start":2365.212,"end":2377.431,"text":"這個規範比較像是一個概括規範它的發動條件也很簡單,寫的是檢警認為有必要的時候不需要經過法院,也沒有特別偵辦罪名的限制"},{"start":2379.333,"end":2407.684,"text":"因此這個規範在現行情況下其實也都可以做了所以在當時的話有一個討論是說到底有沒有需要這條必要還是說就回歸刑事訴訟法好了如果有這條的話因為想我們剛剛看上一張圖對不對就是現在有列了這五種方法但是其實是四種第一個公共空間調查就是說非隱私的空間的調查它是一個概括規範"},{"start":2409.906,"end":2425.051,"text":"大家會擔心的是說如果這個概括規範存在的話如果現在因為科技日新月異出現了第六種、第七種、第八種偵查方法的時候那會不會用這個概括規範來做處理就變得可以了"},{"start":2426.411,"end":2444.997,"text":"這是個疑問啦尤其涉及如果新的偵查方法出現的時候他依照對人民隱私侵害的程度可能不同當然在解釋上不會去用這個概括規範但是目前概括規範既然有了那會不會在之後被做這樣的解釋以及就是現在去定他的意義到底是什麼這個就有問題"},{"start":2448.381,"end":2448.742,"text":"非隱私空間調查"},{"start":2478.401,"end":2502.449,"text":"他把公共空間調查或非隱私的空間調查做延伸延伸的方式是在空中進行調查他的定義就是說在空中對這些公共或非具隱私期待的空間來做調查因為他在這邊偵查的自由度以及所使用的設備比較高"},{"start":2504.867,"end":2530.206,"text":"因此在這邊的話,它的發動基本上還是檢警隊有必要的時候就可以用無人機來做調查,空拍機來做調查那如果超過14天的話就要檢察官許可,那就停在這邊了也就是說用空拍機跟無人機進行調查,從空中進行偵查的行為在2023年版已經刪掉了那麼在2020年版的時候,它基本上採取的是一個不用經過法院來做處理的"},{"start":2532.436,"end":2552.724,"text":"實務上會用無人空拍機來對地面進行拍照一般想的就是空拍嘛,對不對?但是因為這個所涉及的就是科技方法,它也不限於拍照所以對於公共空間剛剛可以做的,在空中也一樣都可以做所以有錄影、錄音、對象影測量等等的都還是可以"},{"start":2553.924,"end":2575.602,"text":"這部分的話當然因為你透過就是三度空間的空拍機來做調查的時候他的隱私疑慮侵害會增加嘛因為大家所想的一般如果你是住在高樓層的公寓大廈那你窗戶外的話就是沒有目前其他沒有其他附近如果沒有其他高樓層建築的話你自己會覺得你的空間比較安全的"},{"start":2577.443,"end":2597.436,"text":"檢警透過空拍機﹑三度空間﹑立體偵查的方式﹑進行偵查﹑可能就沒有那麼安全了我們這邊講說不具隱私或秘密合理期待的空間到底是一個怎樣的概念如果你家如果是在二樓的陽台"},{"start":2598.444,"end":2600.545,"text":"實務上用空拍機來做的可能就是說針對於山林來"},{"start":2624.795,"end":2646.981,"text":"監看說有沒有人去濫墾濫罰的或是說盜財木頭或是說比較大片的巡視的時候現在實務上申請警察是會用紅牌機的那這部分的話雖然目前在2023年版已經刪除了但是也不確定在行政院最後過的時候會過什麼因此這部分的話也把這個2020年的討論跟大家做一個介紹"},{"start":2649.722,"end":2666.352,"text":"GPS定位在實務上已經用了很久了最高法院也有相關的實務見解這一部分在過去一直沒有一個明確的定位"},{"start":2667.973,"end":2686.964,"text":"目前大家所知道的就是說因為GPS它所傳送的訊號不是人與人之間思想意識跟溝通的表示所以它不是受通訊偵查保障法的限制那這部分的話那個過去做到法案進解我這邊就不講太多那我就主要集中在就是科技偵查法它接下來的內容"},{"start":2688.404,"end":2705.87,"text":"這個技術大家應該相對熟悉不管是看電影也好或是說從電視新聞上報導主要的話它就是利用一個GPS系統然後它就是設在可能你的車輛上或是你的物品上等等的來做位置的追蹤"},{"start":2707.118,"end":2729.169,"text":"他這邊的話有強調是以非以辨識個人生物特徵的方式來追蹤位置的所以就是說大家所聽到例如像是中國的一些利用車站的一些監控或是說利用你刷卡進出捷運站的這種資訊他跟這個都不一樣他的技術限定是比較明確的"},{"start":2730.23,"end":2730.931,"text":"檢警不可自行發動"},{"start":2751.814,"end":2761.909,"text":"這個時間比較長那他給的限制是連續超過二小時或是段段續續累積下來超過兩天的話那就要法官保留就要送法院由法官來發票"},{"start":2763.917,"end":2768.182,"text":"車輛及隨身用品上安裝GPS定位器,接受定位訊號,長時間定期回報資訊,檢警可以知道你的去向"},{"start":2784.381,"end":2787.602,"text":"法務部提供的立法計畫中,組織犯罪條例16條以下的新增也有一些跟這些是重複的"},{"start":2804.108,"end":2828.903,"text":"公佈所以他們只有在法務部的立法計畫中概述這件事情而已那大家的話可以去看一下就是16條之一跟16條之四對於GPS追蹤的東西他們在組織犯罪條例有做一個重複的規定那這一部分因為我們也還沒看到條文啦不知道具體有什麼不同因為如果一直完全一樣的話那有可能是例如就是"},{"start":2830.524,"end":2857.024,"text":"在組織判決防制條例如果爭議比較小的情況下那部分如果過了那麼就可以先做那科偵法如果其他的爭議延宕了那麼也不至於妨害接下來他們想要使用這些科技手段那這部分是我的推測啦我們不確定為什麼類似的手段就是在科技偵查法以及組織判決條例要重複規定那這也是大家未來在工作的時候可以注意到的部分"},{"start":2858.413,"end":2858.793,"text":"M化車 定位增長車"},{"start":2881.391,"end":2909.548,"text":"它的概念是使用科技方法來調查你行動通訊設備可能是手機有可能是裝有SIM卡的平板之類的然後它可以就你這個設備的SIM卡以及這個設備本身的有一個編號它都是特定跟唯一的那透過追蹤這些訊號來知道你的位置這樣講還是很不清楚實際的做法就是捏一台箱型車"},{"start":2911.11,"end":2934.491,"text":"將行車外觀上就跟大家一般路上看到一樣從外觀上看不出來它是一台煙化車然後這台將行車裡面的話它有一個模擬電信公司的基地台訊號它會不斷地向它附近大約300公尺的範圍然後去發送這個基地台的訊號所以你的手機在這個範圍內接到這個訊號的話你就以為它是一個電信公司的基地台"},{"start":2936.092,"end":2962.197,"text":"所以他就是透過這樣子來用右行的手機附近所有的人都向這個基地台登錄那登錄之後他就可以透過三角定位的方式知道你的位置而且因為原化車是一台車嘛他可以一直移動所以他的定位隨著這個移動會比較準確比一般就是用那個固定的基地台定位是來得準的"},{"start":2964.437,"end":2989.648,"text":"他就可以取得手機號碼的定位所以他的技術的方式很簡單的講大概是這樣子那在發動要件上的話關於M化車的使用他一開始就是採取法官保留然後每次最長是30天那麼在實務上使用M化車的方式大概就是兩種啦一種就是說我現在知道你的手機號碼"},{"start":2991.032,"end":3007.739,"text":"網絡網絡"},{"start":3008.399,"end":3030.949,"text":"可是我不太知道他實際上使用的手機是什麼因為犯罪的人都會使用人頭的手機那我就不知道他的手機號碼那因此可能在這些嫌疑人出現在公共廠房或是其他地方可以特定的時候那麼利用N化則去確定說現在你所在的那個位置的手機門號是哪一個就此可能可以確認說你這個人實際在使用的手機號碼是哪個"},{"start":3033.47,"end":3060.228,"text":"M化車的使用和取得證據能力在近幾年的最高法院是有質疑的GPS也有類似的問題因此就法務部跟檢警的立場而言GPS跟M化車雖然科技偵查法都還沒定但實務上其實已經大量使用而且使用蠻久的了到現在都還在用"},{"start":3061.368,"end":3074.854,"text":"對,所以說然後再加上近幾年最高法院對於這部分的調查的合法性一直有一些質疑所以使得科偵法在討論的過程中其實最具有必要性跟迫切性的是GPS跟M化車這兩種"},{"start":3079.511,"end":3101.104,"text":"隱私空間調查公共空間的調查和從空中調查公共空間前面兩種都是比較屬於概括的方式這一部分的話是對於隱私空間進行調查不過去調查隱私空間就這個文藝來講它可能有很廣的概念"},{"start":3101.544,"end":3103.647,"text":"以非侵入性的科技方法對具有隱私合理期待的空間實施調查"},{"start":3118.682,"end":3143.545,"text":"這一部分的話,什麼叫做非侵入性的方法?也就是說至少在空間上他去進行監看的時候他不可以跑到你的住宅或是住所裡面如果他是跑到你的住所裡面去偷裝這些東西那麼就是屬於侵入性的那麼非侵入性的話就表示他必須要在這些空間以外"},{"start":3146.351,"end":3162.617,"text":"目前在發動上的話也是採取法官保留加上所謂的他們法務部是用重罪原則來說明但是他這邊所規定的重罪其實是最重本刑三年以上之罪"},{"start":3163.397,"end":3163.417,"text":"黃子嬌"},{"start":3194.578,"end":3213.669,"text":"刑法翻開對照罪名,最重本期三年以上並不重,對於隱私空間的調查,一開始要由法官保留,有刑度限制,比演化車來得更嚴格一些"},{"start":3216.21,"end":3238.257,"text":"舉例上的話那就是從建築外對於室內來進行拍攝可能是一個臥室或是書房來進行拍攝露營或是熱顯像的掃描但這部分的話可能會涉及一些爭議就是如果只是你家的庭院或是門口它到底是不是一個具隱私或秘密合理期待的地方"},{"start":3240.074,"end":3259.933,"text":"如果沒有的話是不是說如果一直拍你家門口在那邊監看那麼就沒有關係但是如果我是對著你的窗戶拍卧室或其他地方的話那麼就要請票這部分的話因為具有隱私昏迷和你期待的空間它是一個具有解釋性的不確定法律概念"},{"start":3260.353,"end":3260.653,"text":"實務衡量界限"},{"start":3277.731,"end":3306.522,"text":"那麼你看喔在建築外對室內進行拍攝錄音類像一掃描錄音其實不包含在內因為錄音這個是包含在通訊監察法所以這部講的隱私空間調查它不會包含錄音對所以這部分的話特別做出來跟大家做說明如果涉及的是言談內容的意思交換的這些東西的調查它都是在通保法的範圍內而不在科證法這條"},{"start":3310.204,"end":3311.486,"text":"進入住宅偷偷安裝攝影機"},{"start":3327.791,"end":3354.287,"text":"這一部分的話在目前的實務上其實也有在進行這類的偵查方法但它不一定會作為證據進到法院實務上的需求如大家在媒體上所看到的它被強調的並不如N化車或是說GPS來得多但它也不能說不重要"},{"start":3355.467,"end":3382.093,"text":"這一部分的話大家會發現就是它的概念其實是非常廣泛的那麼我們會比較期待的是如果法務部在推動這個法案的時候對於這些隱私空間調查它到底現在目前實務上會用哪一些方式來做且已經有需要的會比較有具體的情境跟實用的科技這個在討論上會比較聚焦要不然光用他們目前的概念出發其實它可能是不是很廣的"},{"start":3383.453,"end":3409.648,"text":"尤其在現在科技日新月異進行下來到底未來科技可以做到怎樣程度的監視跟監看其實不太確定所以這一部分的話到底目前在偵查的需求上使用的具體情境跟需要是什麼可能會需要法務部再釐清像在之前開會的時候他們會提到說一些比較具體的案例就是說他們好像在也是類似台版柬埔寨案件中他們進去"},{"start":3411.549,"end":3414.272,"text":"﹚國會助理研習活動．科技偵查法工作坊：完整會議"},{"start":3437.954,"end":3462.074,"text":"詢問到底這部分的以色列調查實務上最常用的類型有哪一些用什麼設備以及未來還想要怎麼做這部分這個東西也有在組織防治條例的16條之五到之八有類似意志的規定具體的條文還沒有出來所以也不太確定它跟科證法的異同這也是未來大家在工作的時候可以注意到的地方"},{"start":3463.134,"end":3463.154,"text":"網路電話監聽"},{"start":3491.252,"end":3493.213,"text":"通訊監察法﹚電信電話監聽﹚通訊監察法﹚通訊監察法﹚通訊監察法﹚"},{"start":3519.089,"end":3544.26,"text":"這部分的話就完全變成了一個他們沒有辦法偵查的一個漏洞因此他們在科偵法要透過監聽網路電話的方式來做調查那這部分為什麼會跟木馬有關係因為理論上有大概有三種方法可以達到網路電話監聽的目的第一種就是破解加密通訊這個技術上非常非常難做到不太可能"},{"start":3546.14,"end":3573.331,"text":"請業者協力請LINE公司做配合目前沒有辦法做到全部但其實有一些已經在做了LINE都有公佈他們的透明化報告目前檢警在犯罪案件偵查的時候是可以請票去跟LINE調閱電話"},{"start":3574.631,"end":3601.231,"text":"通訊記錄的﹖然後可以看得到對話當然有一些技術上的限制不過現在的話臺灣一年大概從LINE那邊公布的統計大概有一千多件是可以透過像法院拿到搜索票的之後然後透過一些合作然後向LINE的總公司那邊取得他們所謂調查的所謂調查嫌疑人的那個LINE的通訊記錄這一部分的話請業者協議就會有"},{"start":3602.892,"end":3631.954,"text":"有很多程度不同的問題有的是國際合作問題有的是像是以LINE的情況而言的話LINE這邊會提到就是說大家可以打開你的那個LINE的每一個對話框或是群組然後如果有標記說他有那個透過加密的部分的話那麼LINE就算那個被申請說要要調閱你的通訊紀錄也看不到因為LINE那邊也沒有"},{"start":3633.687,"end":3647.825,"text":"對,那麼如果你是在50人的群組以上或是說你發現你的那個群組裡面只要有一個人沒有開這個加密的功能的話那你們那個群組的話就是未加密的所以未加密的對話那你那邊就可以調得到然後就可以給檢警"},{"start":3648.906,"end":3663.481,"text":"所以這一部分的話請業者協力在目前的立法上並沒有考慮把這個做法給制度化那第三個方式就是透過植入木馬取得你手機的權限之後然後來獲得你所謂的網路電話監聽的記錄或是內容"},{"start":3667.593,"end":3675.377,"text":"通訊設備﹑手機﹑電腦﹑植入木馬﹑取得權限﹑操作設備﹑將通訊內容回傳﹑達到監聽目的國家木馬﹑植入木馬﹑就是在講這件事"},{"start":3692.426,"end":3706.89,"text":"法務部對於這個草案的發動才覺得是法官保留要件的話就是完全比照通保法因為對於法務部而言他就是把原本通保法可以做的事情移到科偵法來做只是從電信電話擴展到網路電話"},{"start":3709.611,"end":3737.051,"text":"但這個在法律概念上就是從這樣的解釋聽起來單純啦但是會有很多技術上的疑問那所以到底究竟要怎麼植入木馬的也是一個問題所以在目前的舉例上的話大家最容易中病毒的方式就是發送釣魚連結或是信件給嫌疑人然後又是他下載之後然後有後門的程式到你的手機然後在突破你的權限之後進行監聽"},{"start":3739.549,"end":3762.045,"text":"這部分其實會有蠻多的技術疑問的這個技術疑問其實也不是現在一下子就可以克服的例如大家知道所謂的木馬在植入你的手機之後它其實就可以取得你設備的全部權限了所以它才有辦法知道你的內容是什麼或是在你進行電話的時候進行錄音再把這些錄音回傳到檢調手上"},{"start":3765.236,"end":3791.764,"text":"既然它有全部的權限,你要如何確保僅僅只進行網路電話監聽?因為你的手機裡面不是只有你的通訊內容啊,可能也包含了你在雲端硬碟上面的資料,以及這個雲端硬碟可能又連回了你的電腦,你可以透過你的手機操縱你的電腦,或者是說,大家現在都有習慣使用網路銀行的各種APP嘛,那麼你的手機也包含你的這些帳戶資料密碼等等的。"},{"start":3792.804,"end":3813.218,"text":"他其實他都植入密碼了技術上他都可以做這些事情那也就是說所謂的網路電話監聽他的這個木馬他其實是一種減掉的自我克制就是他其實全部都可以拿得到但是他就只拿你的通訊內容其他東西就是自我克制"},{"start":3814.499,"end":3839.222,"text":"這個東西有剪掉自己來做,大家會放心還是說應該有一個第三方的監管機構以及在技術上如何要去設計一個木馬它其實效果是自己被降低的那在討論上大家常常會聽到大木馬跟小木馬我剛剛講的只進行網路電話監聽自我節制的就是小木馬那麼大木馬涉及的就是所謂的遠端秘密線上搜索"},{"start":3839.882,"end":3861.185,"text":"我一旦聯絡之後就從你這部份的設備取得你後面所有的資料包含你的雲端硬碟的連到你家電腦的然後以及任何其他的東西都進行搜索那所以一般就會分小木馬跟大木馬那現在也就是簡單來講法務部在目前的草案中想要做的是只有小木馬但到底技術上如何可行"},{"start":3862.426,"end":3873.753,"text":"其實在之前會議的時候大家就有在討論這件事情因為顯然剛剛講的M化車跟GPS或是一些熱線相機都是目前實務上大家熟悉的在使用的技術了但這個東西不是"},{"start":3875.931,"end":3895.769,"text":"在之前就我所知德國要做這件事情的時候他們是向以色列去購買了一些晶碟軟體然後改裝成符合他們法規需求他們也有分大木馬跟小木馬他們也是做小木馬符合他們法規需求所以這部分的話有一個所謂國家駭客技術要怎麼建構然後要多久以及有沒有錢的問題"},{"start":3897.351,"end":3919.627,"text":"現在的話就是臺灣完全沒有那刑警局就這部分的回答大概最了解可能是他們吧所以他們這部分回答就是目前也因為既然沒有法通過可以做這件事情沒有授權所以其實這件事情如果立法通過後要從零開始來建置這個所謂國家木馬的團隊跟技術"},{"start":3921.929,"end":3928.412,"text":"技術上提到的問題技術在電信電話監聽的時候很簡單有電信公司在那邊協助做掛線現在等於是說沒有電信公司所以你自己國家有一個機關專門在做木馬以及直路木馬技術的團隊"},{"start":3946.099,"end":3971.264,"text":"要如何確保這些技術發展有可能以及就是說 這個技術可不可以被獨立公正的監管還是說進行調查的人自己監管自己那這一部分的話 在目前法務部的草案中其實是都沒有響列的目前的話大概只有兩條一條就是授權說 在通保法第五條 第六條 第七條的情況下可以來做網路電話監聽"},{"start":3972.364,"end":3994.658,"text":"然後下一條就是技術擔保說這個技術基本上怎麼樣寫得非常簡單那對於有沒有一個第三方公正的監管機關等等的就完全沒有提到那到底要發展多有這件事也是一個重點嗎因為現在大家講的對於科偵法理解是因為打炸很重要所以要快點來過但如果剛剛講的這個國家木馬這個東西發展下來建制團隊經費編列等等就要好幾年"},{"start":3999.721,"end":4019.657,"text":"到底在現在這個情況下﹖可能還有爭議﹖或是說使用範圍跟技術還不明確的情況下﹖有沒有必要跟現在的科證法綁在一起過﹖還是說等有比較詳實的研究﹖之後再來做這件事情﹖這也是民團在討論所謂的用木馬來接聽這件事情的疑慮"},{"start":4020.878,"end":4044.271,"text":"對,所以說這一部分的話在2023年版的草案裡面是寫說就是一年,那個部分的話就是一年後實行但從技術上的理解來講要建置這個東西不會是那麼快的啦那我自己也有聽到一些技術背景的夥伴在聊這件事情的說這件事情可能在想像上或是法規規定上好像沒有那麼困難"},{"start":4045.111,"end":4071.687,"text":"但是在技術上有沒有辦法真的做到他們懷疑因為以他們的理解啊像是北韓或是中國他們是以他們就沒有什麼法治的限制嘛他們是以目前就以國家的力量在做國家駭客了但是他們其實在進行一些詐騙集團偵辦的時候要取得資訊可能最有效的方式還是說你查到機房在哪裡之後直接攻堅他說木馬這些事情"},{"start":4072.327,"end":4099.003,"text":"沒有大家一般所想的有一個技術很厲害的人就做得到可能沒有那麼容易因此也有一些從技術面的有些夥伴從技術面就不太擔心這個條文他覺得定下去也沒有傷害因為沒有政府沒有那麼厲害的人做不來那這也是另外一個觀點那這部分的話會涉及可行性的問題那確實是在之前立法階段我們認為就是法務部或是說政府機關在這邊的說明很不足很少的部分"},{"start":4101.109,"end":4115.4,"text":"還有另外一個問題目前你植入木馬之後你的設備上就會有一個安全的漏洞就是透過這個漏洞來回傳你的資料那如果今天已經結束了那要如何修復這個漏洞"},{"start":4116.681,"end":4141.676,"text":"以及這個漏洞如果造成了其他的損害那要怎麼辦?要刑事無常國家賠償嗎?這個問題就是所謂的你木馬的技術有沒有可能會造成就是其他你無法預見的損害那這個別的駭客利用這個漏洞來攻擊的時候那麼這個原因是國家所留下的那會不會有其他的法律責任那這部分的法律責任要如何來做"},{"start":4142.597,"end":4169.13,"text":"安排或甚至撇清這部分的話在目前查案也沒有提到對所以在剛剛的這個整理下面大家可以大概總結出來就是說在目前比較成熟的那在一定的範圍內可以做討論那會比較有共識的可能是GPS還有M化車的部分那對於隱私空間的調查到底要如何用哪一些技術進行調查跟實務上增防犯罪的需求是什麼"},{"start":4169.77,"end":4174.013,"text":"科技偵查法工作坊．科技偵查法工作坊．科技偵查法工作坊．"},{"start":4193.268,"end":4193.288,"text":"請駿鴻律師討論"},{"start":4219.551,"end":4224.528,"text":"好大家午安喔那很榮幸來參與今天的活動"},{"start":4225.56,"end":4252.165,"text":"那剛剛其實政院律師已經有跟大家分享說目前科偵法的一些科技手段那我想這個是大家非常重視的啦那當然科技手段在科偵法或者的立法的脈絡或過去的過程裡面大家大概法務部都會講一件事情就是科技手段會不斷的演進然後呢所以呢我們大概也需要一些概括的一個規定或者是授權那不然每次有一個新的方法我們是不是要重新立一部法"},{"start":4253.185,"end":4279.738,"text":"當然這個思維上到底怎麼樣比較好我覺得都各有選擇可是我們目前最高法院的理解是我們強制處分是一種要他就是要明文化要類型化的這個概念否則他不會宣告GPS或者是M化車是一個違法的一個強制處分行為他必須要一個強制處分法定的這個概念所以在目前的立法上我們可能要來想一下說那一些東西是大家真的覺得科技偵查法是"},{"start":4279.838,"end":4280.358,"text":"科技偵查法工作坊．"},{"start":4301.267,"end":4301.567,"text":"科技偵查法務委員"},{"start":4325.214,"end":4349.839,"text":"所以在一般的強制處分之後又開始出現了所謂的通訊監察那它有涉及到的除了過去的財產自由權以外大概多會談的就是隱私權跟秘密通訊的自由我想這個大家都非常的清楚那到演進到現在現在除了剛剛那些最基本的理解以外它還包括了可能就是秘密通訊還有資訊自主或者是其他的資訊的部分為什麼會"},{"start":4350.979,"end":4351.199,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4372.634,"end":4386.321,"text":"我就找兩百個警察在外面跟你多少個警察在外面跟你可不可以在過去的理解裡面這件事情可以啊沒有人會說不可以啊那在將來的科技手段之後可不可以"},{"start":4387.847,"end":4408.551,"text":"因為國家在取得這些資訊之後,他取得的訊息數量或取得這件事情會變得非常的簡單他不需要派人去嘛,他要做什麼?在人家前面裝個攝影機,我每天拍著你,我一直收集資訊然後要不要用人去看,將來不用用人去看了,AI分析就好了"},{"start":4409.605,"end":4425.657,"text":"在這種狀況下我們是不是還用過去的理解來看待國家透過各種方式來去收集相關各位的資訊這個部分可能是大家要想一下過去我覺得可以做啊他在外面拍拍照錄音可以啊為什麼不行"},{"start":4426.738,"end":4450.26,"text":"可是當國家可以透過這些手段﹐大量取得資訊的時候﹐他取得的效果是不一樣的﹐為什麼不一樣﹐他量大﹐所以他知道你這個人平常在幹嘛﹐他知道你禮拜一到禮拜二到幹嘛﹐禮拜三到禮拜四在幹嘛﹐禮拜五的下午兩點你去哪裡﹐去了哪裡以後﹐然後再搭配其他的資訊的時候﹐他可以把你這個人的人生﹐可以把它描繪出來﹐"},{"start":4451.929,"end":4465.85,"text":"這代表的是什麼?代表國家可以隨便監控一個人他的日常生活當國家擁有各位日常生活的所有資訊的時候代表的國家想要對你做什麼他都可以從中擷取一些資訊來用就對你做什麼"},{"start":4466.776,"end":4485.875,"text":"這也就是民團為什麼開始會擔心這件事情的原因所以不應該把單純的科技偵查手段 把它理解成過去的偵查手段當然它的效果是完全 看起來好像是一樣的 他們的說理上也跟你說一樣啊 我們以前也在做啊 我派200個警察去啊 你能派多少個200個警察"},{"start":4487.783,"end":4509.543,"text":"200個警察能跟你跟多久?一個禮拜?兩個禮拜?三個禮拜好了?一個月?可能嗎?現實上不可能啦,現實上不可能所以過去在傳統手段所取得的資訊是顯然有限的可是在將來的科技手段在科技的不斷的發展之下這些訊息是無限的所以他取得資訊會越來,量會越來越大"},{"start":4511.515,"end":4539.84,"text":"當然大法官在這件事情上做了過去有很多的解釋在談的就是說我們要怎麼樣去保護我們的因為科技偵查的手段然後對於我們的隱私然後我們的自主權利這一些這個細的部分大法官的說明我想大家都清楚不會再特別去細念不過這個是大法官在開始也不斷在演進對於這一些隱私權的理解或者是資訊自主的理解也不斷的隨著隨著現在科技的發展而有所演進"},{"start":4541.617,"end":4566.878,"text":"接下來往下看我們的保障的權利或者是因為國家手段不一樣之後我們要怎麼樣去設計或者是怎麼樣去思考說好 那我們還是會需要我們不可能跟國家講說你因為這個侵犯很大所以我就不讓你做這些事情所以我們在要求的時候可能我們對於這些強制處分的發動要件可能大家就要去開始去想說過去的要件是不是足夠"},{"start":4568.817,"end":4593.052,"text":"這個部分很多部分還在討論我覺得我們在立法的時候可能要再進一步想清楚的這個大概分個三個階段去這樣子的演進的說明在第一個階段我想最傳統的強制處分我覺得大家都清楚大概就是法官保留當然也不是法官保留有分好很多層次我這邊只是先簡單的跟大家說明然後他要有一定的犯罪嫌疑他要有相當理由存在然後他也有"},{"start":4594.29,"end":4612.958,"text":"實施強制手段的必要性這是最基本的可是到了通訊監察的這個時候就是監聽大家電話的時候大家可以注意到說這個想法就已經開始不一樣了因為他注意到說通訊監察他聽到你的對話內容的時候他發現說他拿到的資訊比平常或者是比傳統講師所分多很多"},{"start":4614.042,"end":4615.083,"text":"重罪原則重罪原則"},{"start":4631.741,"end":4659.716,"text":"特定明確原則他要監聽多久﹖他的範圍在哪裡﹖他的侵害必須要最小除了監聽拿不到這些資訊以外﹖你除了透過監聽才能拿到這些資訊以外﹖你沒有其他方法了﹖你才能做他要求的是你中間要﹖你一開始申請的時候有一定的要求事中的時候也要監督﹖事後要通知被監聽的人甚至後面還有報告的要求"},{"start":4660.481,"end":4688.768,"text":"所以在通訊監察大家開始注意到說他的權力的侵害已經越來越重的時候那我們就開始增加要件去限制國家發動這些強制處分的門檻這個是我們在制度設計上因應他所侵害的權力越來越大的時候我們開始去思考的事情那下一步是我們現在各位要做的事情就是科技偵查法我們怎麼辦法務部跟你說不行啊我沒有這些手段我就沒辦法"},{"start":4691.094,"end":4712.087,"text":"徵查犯罪﹖這麼多的詐騙集團我都抓不到啊這麼多外面的犯罪行為我都抓不到啊他們就開始了這樣子的一種要求我完全可以理解說從國家徵防犯罪的角度他還是需要而且我們也不太可能去完全說啊不行你還是只能去走過去的傳統手段"},{"start":4713.047,"end":4734.32,"text":"這個其實也沒有什麼道理啦沒有道理因為你就是有一個比較有效率的方法的時候你還是當然會選擇比較有效率的方法沒有人會去走老方法嘛那只是相對來說我們必須要在一般人不要講因為過去都會有一種講法說我們這些科技手段所針對的對象都是那些犯罪的人啦各位都不會被用到啦"},{"start":4735.04,"end":4762.131,"text":"可是實際上是這樣嗎?實際上一定不是嗎?因為整個偵查手段他灑下去他還沒有取得確定先不講他有沒有惡意的問題他在不確定誰是犯罪行為人之前各位通通都是潛在的犯罪行為人你只要跟那個案件有相關全部都是犯罪行為人的嫌疑人那是不是全部都會被偵查他是不是就可以發動所有的科技手段去取得各位各式各樣的諮詢那如果他有惡意的話"},{"start":4763.231,"end":4791.89,"text":"我只要找個理由我想各位 我不知道各位有沒有聽過有些過去有些警察 他們如果沒辦法調個資現在沒辦法調個資嘛以前可以隨便調個資 可以上網 他們的系統可以查那現在可不可以調個資 現在被規定說不可以嘛那他們的做法是什麼他們做法就開個案子嘛開案之後就可以調嘛那開案到底是真案假案還是空案有時候是真案 合理 OK那現實的操作模式就是有時候開的案子不一定是真的案子"},{"start":4793.68,"end":4822.134,"text":"對於這些惡意的部分我們怎麼處理好像沒有什麼太大的方法所以必須靠大家來在我們的立法的時候可能要在要件上把它講得更清楚更明確所以在科技偵查的部分我這邊大概是把目前我們所觀察到一些外國立法例的一些在增加的要件上發動科技偵查手段強制處分的要件的部分把它列給大家"},{"start":4823.096,"end":4828.614,"text":"第一個部分當然還是法官保留可是他開始加重德國他們有的是我們過去的法官保留"},{"start":4829.744,"end":4858.382,"text":"都是在地方法院有的是要求說他們要到聯邦法院要到上級法院要合議庭要三個法官五個法務當然實際的效果怎麼樣那是另外一件事情那至少我覺得他在程序上他會讓造成大家可能會更謹慎因為這可能是過去可能就是單純的強制處分庭那接下來是我要到上級法院大家可能會更慎重以待這件事情那當然相當理由的部分這個我把它紅字的原因是因為"},{"start":4859.082,"end":4886.661,"text":"我們要不要考慮我們的犯罪嫌疑是不是只是當成過去的相當理由就夠了還是說他犯罪嫌疑要提升到更高有某個程度的提升的時候我們才可以發動這個都是立法論大家可以思考看看的就是說他不是不能偵查他還是可以偵查他可以用其他手段偵查可是你如果要用侵害權利比較大的強制處分手段的時候你的犯罪嫌疑的"},{"start":4887.381,"end":4910.009,"text":"的這個門檻要不要拉高一些高到哪裡去我覺得這個都是可以討論的都是可以討論的那必要性跟之前大概都會有啦那重罪原則或者是在有些國家甚至是要求超重罪原則他只有特定的嚴重犯罪像殺人這種嚴重性的犯罪或者是有破到生命身體才有安全的案件類型才可以使用"},{"start":4910.589,"end":4911.149,"text":"法務部主席"},{"start":4930.141,"end":4945.432,"text":"法務版本很粗糙中間的特定明確最小侵害、失蹤監督、事後監督這些大概跟通訊監察一般是相同的目前科技偵查手段會特別強調技術擔保的問題"},{"start":4949.355,"end":4972.111,"text":"就是你所使用的科技手段是真的能夠達到他發動的一個目的而且他必須要擔保說他撤離之後他能夠維護讓那個原來的那個資安環境可以正常比如說剛剛講的我真的就是塞一個木馬到你的假設可以到你的手機裡面開木馬等於是我弄個洞在你嘛在那邊啊"},{"start":4972.992,"end":4998.422,"text":"那個動不是說我這個木馬撤除之後就結束了你就會恢復正常就沒有動了照我們之前去了解我們跟一些科技專家的對談他們說那邊已經被攻破了下一個人要去攻破就會變得比較容易就會比較容易所以它本來的資訊的控管的安全性已經被破壞了那當我把它撤除之後我也沒有辦法讓它回復到原來的狀況"},{"start":5000.504,"end":5021.189,"text":"根據我們問的狀況 他們說 不可能啦 是不會恢復的啦那 不管 可是至少這個基本的要求 在德國有這種要求有德國有這種要求那 另外一個想法是說 那要不要有個第三的監督的機構因為這些資訊 這些你所使用的科技手段 其實 說實在的 法院不一定有足夠的專業能力來判斷"},{"start":5022.385,"end":5046.531,"text":"我們的法官都非常的認真也都非常的努力在學習可是科技手段如果說我們採行的是一種比較概括性的一種立法模式那他或者是說他所使用的是一些特殊的方法他用什麼程式用什麼樣的模型或者是用什麼樣的設備法官不一定能夠完全了解那個是不是法官不努力而是科技的進展真的很快"},{"start":5047.13,"end":5070.428,"text":"在這種狀況下有沒有辦法讓法官進行完全的監督另外就是說在透過我們這種科技手段所取回來的資訊這些資訊要不要稍微做一下控管因為大家我剛剛前面提到現在的科技手段拿到的東西非常的多剛剛其實曾先生有提到一個部分就是設備端通訊監察設備端通訊監察的部分他就是塞木馬到各位的通訊的設備裡面"},{"start":5071.829,"end":5072.71,"text":"設備端通訊檢查設備端通訊檢查設備端"},{"start":5100.199,"end":5128.039,"text":"那如果從剛剛的概念裡面他竟然叫塞木馬木馬代表的是我擁有所有的權限我擁有所有的權限代表的是我可以拿到你手機裡面或者是你透過手機可以進入的每一個平台的每一個地方我可以拿到你所有的東西那如果一個案件偵查或者是我在瞭解狀況的時候我取得這麼多資訊的時候我全部一直download下來我取得這麼多資訊的時候警方或者是偵查機關他可不可以全看"},{"start":5130.171,"end":5154.733,"text":"有些是不是跟案件不一定有關係啊有些真的跟案件沒有關係,它是我的日常生活啊它可能涉及到我的日常生活,我跟我家人的互動我跟我的親密的人的互動甚至於我的個人的性傾向或是我個人的生活癖好,通通在裡面這個時候,跟案件都沒有關係這個時候,我們是不是容許我們的偵查機關直接就拿來使用呢"},{"start":5156.174,"end":5156.815,"text":"當政府機關透過強制處分"},{"start":5180.876,"end":5200.317,"text":"這個部分也有一個比較類似的概念是在美國的那個搜索律師事務所的Special Master也有類似這個概念簡單來講就是我收到了東西其實他可能不單單只是不單單只是犯罪的資訊他可能所涉及到的是跟犯罪完全無關的資訊這個時候我們要完全交給執法單位嗎?"},{"start":5201.854,"end":5213.15,"text":"沒有 我們要透過一個中間 完全中立的第三人他做一個篩選他幫我們看一下說 你說你要的犯罪資料嗎大概是哪個面向 或者是哪個類型他幫你看一下 然後提供"},{"start":5213.766,"end":5237.189,"text":"當然這個到底有沒有真正的中立單位或第三監督單位這個可以打問號啦可是這個也可以設計啦不過這個是個東西是可以去思考看看就是他跟真防犯罪比較沒有直接利害關係的時候也許中間可以進行篩選另外就是當取得資訊之後我們資訊要不要處理我都處理完了或者是我看完看完之後"},{"start":5238.55,"end":5267.501,"text":"那我覺得這些東西沒有用或者是這些東西有用到偵辦結束了我還是取得你很多的東西啊那大家不要把它銷毀政府機關不可能永久保存吧也沒有道理永久保存啊那當然就要銷毀那這種資訊的東西誰來負責去監督它有沒有真的銷毀過去的傳統的強制組份它的銷毀容易嘛就是反正再去找個地方燒掉吧"},{"start":5269.691,"end":5285.797,"text":"電腦資訊沒有那麼容易看得出來他就發一張命令說我刪掉了現實上有沒有必須要有個人來告訴我說他真的刪掉了所以第三的監督機構也許真的是可以思考看看的一條路"},{"start":5287.962,"end":5312.014,"text":"這邊一直在講強制處分的部分強制處分的部分其實在過去我們強制處分的認定大概就是我們強制處分是法定的所以大概都是我們的法條上有規定的部分才會被理解成強制處分可是實際上我們在目前很多的立法的實質操作上在我自己的理解它還是強制處分為什麼這樣提像剛剛前面提到那種科技手段像演化車、空拍機、熱線相影設備等等假設它通過了"},{"start":5313.655,"end":5337.82,"text":"他對,他把他理解成是強制處分那可是如果再往下要看說那我不是這樣做我就扣到你的手機我就扣到各位的手機了現在的手機不單單只是一個他就不是手機而已嗎各位的手機有沒有辦法連各位家裡面的各位家裡面的有沒有辦法連你們各位的雲端硬碟有沒有辦法連你們的Gmail"},{"start":5339.541,"end":5365.505,"text":"應該都可以吧像我是都可以啦拿到我的手機就知道所有的事情我們現在的手機像鑰匙它是一個通往我所有訊息的一把鑰匙那這個時候我們扣到手機之後我們過去很習慣的下一步動作是什麼偵查機關反正我們就破解然後把東西先整支手機存下來然後就看裡面的資料"},{"start":5367.625,"end":5388.24,"text":"我們本來的強制處分只能讓你拿到那支手機有說你本來的強制處分可以拿到後面的資料嗎好像沒有到那個程度而且剛剛提到的你本來拿這個資料的目的是要偵查犯罪所以理論上你只能拿特定屬於跟偵查犯罪相關的資料那如果照我剛剛的講法我進去以後我拿到的資料有多少資料"},{"start":5389.437,"end":5395.61,"text":"大概什麼都有啦大概什麼都有那像這樣子的理解過去叫數位鑑識數位鑑識它本質上叫強制處分還是一種數位鑑識還是一種鑑定"},{"start":5401.294,"end":5429.215,"text":"在將來這個界線開始會慢慢的模糊化所以在這個時候我們的要件的設計上可能就要把它進一步的思考說那我要進行相關的數位鑑識的時候它的條件是什麼剛剛的強制處分的要件要不要再想一下要把它套到這裡面來我想這個部分是可能可以思考看看那當然在過去也是過去另外一種習慣的做法就是我就不走強制處分的要件我用調取的"},{"start":5430.155,"end":5444.447,"text":"調取就是檢察官發個文你把你的手機拿過來你把你的資料拿給我你傳那個什麼東西給我用調取的方式法官保有可能大家也許比較OK 比較相信當然我自己也有個問號但還是有個要件檢方或偵查機關這種調取有沒有什麼強制力"},{"start":5452.389,"end":5475.092,"text":"大家要不要配合那這個到底算什麼所以這個部分都是要再往下去思考的那之所以會特別提這件事情是因為過去在做調取或科技鑑識的時候他並不理解為或不把它認為是一種強制處分可是它本質上一定有明顯的差異因為如果你把它理解成強制處分的時候它的發動門檻會是不一樣它的發動門檻比較高它的發動門檻可能是我剛剛列的那一堆"},{"start":5475.919,"end":5503.564,"text":"那它的程序控制也完全是不一樣的然後甚至於它的將來這個東西能不能用它的證據能力的判斷也會不一樣所以這個部分是在立法論上可能也許可以思考的啦那回到剛剛前面提到就是說科技手段跟傳統強制質處分的差異的部分我想這個是大家目前大概都能夠做相同理解的因為將來科技手段都是秘密進行大概也沒有人知道"},{"start":5504.81,"end":5527.28,"text":"你們被科技偵查了﹖你未必會知道﹖除非我們有法令的要求﹖為什麼你未必會知道﹖是因為﹖像大家監聽﹖如果大家被監聽的時候﹖除非一定都是事後﹖你被偵辦了﹖要不然事後發個通知給你﹖不好意思我監聽你﹖要不然你怎麼知道你被監聽﹖將來科技手段也是如此﹖我看你的﹖我用﹖塞木馬到裡面去﹖你的電子設備﹖被放木馬到裡面去的時候﹖你會知道嗎﹖"},{"start":5533.28,"end":5560.728,"text":"不一定會知道,當然有時候會發現,不一定會知道或者是說有人從你家外面用熱顯相儀一直照著你有人用空拍機,找了一台空拍機,24小時就放在你家的外面然後就盯著你,從外面盯著你家看假設這件事情是可以的話,你會知道嗎?你不會知道的啦將來這些科技手段,你通通都不會知道"},{"start":5561.624,"end":5581.651,"text":"所以我們如果沒有在前面發動的程序好好控制的時候人民連救濟他都不知道他要提起救濟他沒有機會提起救濟因為我根本就不知道我被科技偵查了我被取得多少資訊"},{"start":5583.601,"end":5608.376,"text":"所以這個部分就是為什麼要建要設計到這麼要更嚴格更嚴謹的原因那另外就剛剛前面不斷提到的啦因為資訊的取得量真的是太龐大了太龐大了因為他確實都能夠拿到很多東西而且在目前我所理解的科技手段裡面他們都是全線的概念他一次拿都拿很多再加上我們現在科技手段去使用的時候不會只用一種手段"},{"start":5609.136,"end":5634.557,"text":"我會各式各樣的手動﹐我調你的消費紀錄﹐我拿你的消費紀錄﹐或者是我拿外面的監控紀錄﹐這個在德國﹐或者是歐美﹐美國也都會討論﹐他們都用的是所謂的馬賽克理論﹐馬賽克就是那個瓷磚﹐小顆的瓷磚﹐一顆一顆﹐你看一顆小瓷磚的時候﹐你不知道這在講什麼﹐當我收集了兩百顆﹐拼出來就是一個﹐某個人的圖像﹐"},{"start":5636.065,"end":5659.184,"text":"他就是一個這種概念我一塊一塊的時候他會跟你說我這個只有拿什麼我這個我只有拿什麼可是我們的科技手段絕對不會只有單用某一種方式他絕對是各種手段全部並合使用所以當他的馬賽克理論的效果會在目前的科技手段之下或將來的科技手段並用的狀況下他的效果會越來越強他侵害大家的權利的狀況會越來越強"},{"start":5660.605,"end":5685.997,"text":"他清開的時間也會長因為他這個時間點他拿到的資訊其實收集的資訊是會多而且這個刪除困難所以將來如果流出如果真的很不幸流出特定的資料的時候或者是現在流到網路上的時候現在我想大家看媒體媒體都會有很多的檢警的辦案資料我們的偵查部公開會有他的問題不斷的流出的時候"},{"start":5687.257,"end":5702.902,"text":"不斷的流出的時候那這些訊息永遠都在網路上那好啦有罪大家可能覺得有罪就算了大家有沒有想過過去有人是因為雖然有一些資料流出最後不判無罪的有吧還是有啊那在這種狀況下這一些人怎麼辦"},{"start":5704.028,"end":5728.48,"text":"我要去主張被遺忘權﹖叫平台都把我刪掉﹖告訴我的平台﹖沒有幾個成功的啦所以在現實上那個侵害其實﹖其實非常的大﹖然後最後因為剛起來﹖因為他有很強大的秘密性﹖所以他的行為審查也是非常非常困難的所以他必須要﹖你既然在這種狀況下的話﹖你的控制要求就必須要提升﹖他的使用限制就必須要增加那這個是我大概把它﹖"},{"start":5729.82,"end":5753.572,"text":"整個整理出來 也許將來再整理這個 絕對不會只有這16個 可能會越來越多這個部分因為前面大部分都提到 所以就是供大家參考當然這個部分可能有些就會有一些困境 有些困境就是一個權衡的問題就是輕罪 像剛剛前面就提到重罪原則 那輕罪怎麼辦"},{"start":5755.223,"end":5779.685,"text":"不過還是有一個概念要讓大家跟大家分享就是說不用科技偵查手段不代表不能偵查你可以用其他的方式去做那你既然有其他的方式可以去處理的時候你為什麼要選擇一個侵害這麼大的方式來處理呢那當然這個再次就是一種權衡 再一種思考那這個部分我覺得"},{"start":5782.007,"end":5802.026,"text":"在科技偵查手段的運用上它就是必須要有所取捨到底誰是輕的誰是重的我想這個部分應該是要想清楚的那明確性原則的判斷我想這個部分應該前面大概都有提到我就不再一一往下去去細談那另外一個部分我這邊想要特別提到的是"},{"start":5803.482,"end":5805.122,"text":"當國家收集這些資訊之後,代表的國家,他要保存它吧"},{"start":5830.745,"end":5854.013,"text":"他要保存他以後他都會放在特定的地方那我如果真的是一個犯罪者我的目標就是要取得資訊我其實不太需要花時間去對付大家我等國家幫我蒐集完後我就攻擊國家就好了現在大家比較希望的是分散式的比較不喜歡這種集中式的一個架構那當然集中式有時候當然各自有利弊有好有壞"},{"start":5854.966,"end":5878.542,"text":"那只是我們國家目前所建構的資安環境﹖到底有沒有能力去守護各位的相關的資訊﹖和他們取得的資訊﹖取得的資訊內容目前的觀察﹖我不知道是沒有﹖我自己是覺得沒有啦大家可能也是可以看一下他們過去在各自的單位裡面關於資安的預算到底編列了多少"},{"start":5880.267,"end":5904.616,"text":"我覺得這個都是可以去觀察的他們如果要做這件事情那你後面的配套要先想清楚你跟人民拿了那麼多東西以後你要怎麼保護人民啊萬一這個東西如果掉出去了犯罪的資料大家可能有些人可以接受有些人不能接受那可以這個不管那跟犯罪無關的資料呢我如果從政府的手上跟犯罪無關的資料被洩露出去這個是什麼國家賠償國家負責嗎"},{"start":5909.147,"end":5933.343,"text":"我不知道國家會不會負責,因為他們會說這個可能不一定有因果關係,沒辦法證明,因為這種資料庫外洩通常都沒辦法證明,只會說你能很明確的去拉到說這個是國家資料庫外洩,否則他的證明程度是非常高,非常非常困難的,國家也不一定會承認,現在如果有資訊外洩的狀況理論上,他們要通知那個資訊被洩漏的那個當事人,要通知他們,"},{"start":5934.224,"end":5962.206,"text":"可是現在的做法,民間的做法就是通知你說他不會告訴你說我資料庫外洩,他只會告訴你說各位要注意詐騙喔提醒你,那你這個我三不五時會收到我想各位也三不五時會收到實際上可能是我的資料庫外洩了那就我所知道之前司法院司法院也有資料庫外洩我想各位如果注意新聞上網查一下應該有也有資料庫外洩我得到的訊息也是這些被外洩的人也是收到一個訊息司法院的訊息是請各位要注意詐騙喔"},{"start":5965.229,"end":5991.952,"text":"這代表我們在這件事情做得很糟糕啊如果你這種狀況這麼糟糕的治安環境我不知道國家現在有什麼樣的資格或者是有什麼樣的條件來做這件事情你等於是幫某一些犯罪集團來幫大家集中資訊然後被攻擊我覺得這個是大家要去想的啦那這個可以要求他們把治安環境做得更好啦"},{"start":5993.297,"end":6014.562,"text":"所以在這個部分我們都會思考說到底要不要一個獨立的審查機關那這個是剛剛提到的就是它的技術擔保確認說它的技術確實是可以擔保說它只能拿到特定資訊然後特定的方式這樣等等那對於資料的判讀甚至於資料的銷毀那只是說這個所謂的獨立機關是什麼"},{"start":6017.023,"end":6034.111,"text":"我知道這件事情在台灣在目前的法制上都困難因為我們現在要去新增任何的單位大概都蠻難的可是這件事情上真的要認真思考一下這個事情那這個部分也許可以跟我不知道是跟書發部還是跟哪個單位去做討論因為"},{"start":6035.612,"end":6054.204,"text":"他就跟資訊保護機關的獨立機關某個程度是有一點像的他都需要一個真的專責的單位來談這件事情或是來做這件事情我覺得可能才會做得比較好當然他還有涉及到將來他跟法官之間的合作關係這個東西是相互的問題"},{"start":6057.245,"end":6080.74,"text":"最後這個是比較法律層面的部分就是說我如果違反法律的就是說違反剛剛講的那些設計的時候那我們在選擇我們要如何去避免我們的政府機關他不要用違法的方式去取得大家的資訊的問題那當然要件上是造成他們去行使上的困難困難跟麻煩那可是另外一點要去思考的就是如果說我違法了也沒有差"},{"start":6081.741,"end":6081.881,"text":"法律效果"},{"start":6096.246,"end":6115.839,"text":"除了他有特別惡意的目的以外,否則原則上都是想在法庭上使用那,怎麼樣讓他們沒有辦法在法庭上使用,可能就是要去相...他可能就是應該有一個證據排除的一個規範那只是說這個排除要絕對的排除或相對的排除,我覺得大家可以再進一步再來討論那最後是銷毀的部分,銷毀的部分如何確認,大概是這樣"},{"start":6121.051,"end":6138.246,"text":"這是特別會提到的,過去我們在規範的時候會要求說業者也要有協力義務那協力義務的部分其實在台灣有比較大的困境為什麼比較大的困境是我們目前所使用的大型平台絕大多數都都算滿"},{"start":6147.506,"end":6165.172,"text":"大部分都是大型的企業那甚至在台灣沒有落地所以說實在的我們很難管得到他們所以他其實也不太理我們那像我們有一些部分有落地的部分像LINELINE是大家比較常使用的那LINE他們的部分他們大概follow的是他們日本的規範"},{"start":6166.432,"end":6167.333,"text":"本質上的問題在於是他們的商域考量"},{"start":6192.245,"end":6220.914,"text":"今天當各位所使用任何一個平臺然後這個平臺或者政府就給你一個資訊說你存在這個某平臺的資訊我政府跟他要他一定都會給我各位還要去用這個平臺嗎?從民間機關的角度就不會跟就當了一般消費者我就絕對不會想去這個平臺我要去選擇一個我放在那邊不會被查不會被要到的一個地方"},{"start":6221.556,"end":6244.336,"text":"所以這個部分的話我覺得是比較困難的當然我們合理上我們目前的制度設計上確實是有一些是要求這一些業者的協力義務那在國外的立法例上我們去觀察也有一些避風港的條款在怎麼樣的狀況下可以排除的這種狀況那這個部分我覺得我們在立法上都可以再進一步的思考啦"},{"start":6245.097,"end":6267.639,"text":"好,大概是這樣,當時的建議是至少在目的上看有沒有機會科偵法當然立法上我們應該可以再進一步的調整那另外再搭配科偵法的本身,它可能還是需要一個獨立的資訊審查單位,也許是一個相對應"},{"start":6268.66,"end":6270.741,"text":"請問今天現場來參加的朋友有沒有要提問的?"},{"start":6299.148,"end":6319.227,"text":"各位同仁、女律師、林律師大家好我是建佑我大概有幾個跟大家分享和交流就是我們立法院法治局其實今年四月有一個關於科技偵查法治研究報告大家可以參考那裡面其實有大量參考林彥均警察官寫的一個論文"},{"start":6319.867,"end":6344.99,"text":"那它裡面其實結論地方就提到說我們這個參考大法官釋字443號解釋然後有層級化的這個法律保留保留層次所以裡面有個圖在這個我們立法院法治局的這個今年4月報告的第19頁其實有個圖就是有分一個三角形金字塔從法官相對法官保留到檢察官"},{"start":6346.631,"end":6368.723,"text":"相對檢察官保留人形化的車子還有剛才提到林律師、呂律師這個報告你們有提到其實我感謝兩位律師今天給這個講義有提供一些方向可以結合立法院法治局的這個報告那可能供各位同仁以後在立法的時候或是在審查的時候可以做一個參考那裡面也有提到說"},{"start":6370.304,"end":6388.955,"text":"當然是這個立法需求的高度我們可以去知道它的優先順序當然這個內容大家看那裡面有兩點我特別提出來大家交流就是說外部監察外部監督的機制是很重要那當然這一份理法院的研究報告法治局研究報告有提到一些立法例"},{"start":6390.456,"end":6413.055,"text":"監督機關有德國國會有設一個G110的委員會或英國設這個調查權力法庭那可能這個都是立法律可以參考的一個外部的監督機關當然我們國內的法官人力大家也知道非常不足嘛這個就剛才林律師有提到的這個是不是做得到那預算夠不夠那又是一回事那這個"},{"start":6414.716,"end":6422.101,"text":"前幾天不幸有法官親身大概也是反映這個事情那第二就是說剛才提到一個很重要的是"},{"start":6425.525,"end":6444.996,"text":"剛才有提到說這個如何救濟就是說科技偵查法其實它有一個就是會去搜索線上的搜索科要不然小木馬什麼那其實我們的實務上會把這種電池記錄的搜索把它當作是一種鑑定那鑑定的話它這樣子的證據調查程序就不會有所謂的"},{"start":6446.716,"end":6471.089,"text":"救濟途徑我覺得這個是非常要命的一件事情如果說我們的這部法律也是長這樣那就比較通過算了所以我會覺得說可能在相關的法令如果能把明文把科技偵查法這種線上或者是電子紀錄的搜索扣押把它當作一個實質的搜索那你搜索你一定就有它的書面也是另創原則它有它書面一定要的範圍"},{"start":6472.149,"end":6494.049,"text":"所以剛才大家疑慮說會不會比如說搜索我家你把我全部雲端還有電子紀錄裝置都裡面的連我穿什麼內褲大小都知道這些訊息當然要有一個範圍所以這樣一個另狀制度還有把它定位成是一個實質的搜索其實它就有一個G票啦或者是搜索票這樣上面都有一個範圍的欄位都可以知道"},{"start":6494.569,"end":6494.729,"text":"主席"},{"start":6515.121,"end":6515.241,"text":"電子區票"},{"start":6531.857,"end":6555.377,"text":"蘇丹宏事件那時候好像員警是因為用手機上面出示了G票我們有提審制度差點就被蘇丹宏在公司負責的嫌犯差點脫罪因為他說你這個不是紙本因為我們實務上都是紙本你這個G票不是紙本所以我們電子G票是不是也可以放進去科技偵查法之下的審思否則我們的實務件也就是G數"},{"start":6556.859,"end":6556.999,"text":"主席"},{"start":6577.854,"end":6601.823,"text":"我剛有提到那個就是英國IPCO的部分因為他們有一個叫調查權力公署或是調查權力法庭他其實就蠻特別的因為他其實那個委員會除了有法官之外他我記得也有一個類似的技術審查官的角色就是他對於這些科技偵查技術是比較從技術面的方式可以來去確認說這個搜索的必要性或是範圍"},{"start":6603.763,"end":6631.648,"text":"監督和管理這也是吳榮和俊榮律師在分享法官雖然很認真但他本身可能就不是科技技術背景的因此他對於偵查可以查到什麼東西以及如何運作會不會符合他令狀的要求其實是客觀上沒有能力做到監督這件事情就這邊特別提到剛剛那個講到IPCO的部分這個方向確實是蠻值得我們參考的"},{"start":6635.032,"end":6660.883,"text":"我補充一下剛剛聯盟鏈的部分那個我覺得是個好的方向確實在取證的時候如果可以上鏈的話他從那個區塊鏈他的那個那個無法創改性的這個角度來看我覺得那是好的那可是從一個聯盟鏈的組成來說的話目前的聯盟鏈大概主要的組成都是官方單位那其實在一般的理解裡面如果你要創這種聯盟鏈然後大家都應該可以信任"},{"start":6661.643,"end":6690.74,"text":"的話你全官方單位從民間的角度會比較擔心那所以之前在在法務部在成立聯盟鏈之前其實民間一直有個建議說是不是應該至少要有個民間單位在那邊看大家的思考可以放在哪裡或者是律師公會或者是大家可以信賴的民間團體那那個部分不會因為民間團體進去我們就變成可以篡改了民間團體也無法篡改那重點"},{"start":6691.3,"end":6716.235,"text":"那個禁具的核心目的在於監督功能是監督功能的部分所以這個部分當然我們之前在跟司法院或者是法務部在反映這件事情的時候他們是說我們這個是剛開始那將來大家也是希望說可以納入民間納入這個聯盟鏈裡面那不過這個部分也許長期來看的話也可以再關注的是不是說這種所謂的證據的連續性的部分然後證據的上鏈的"},{"start":6720.678,"end":6720.978,"text":"上鏈之前"},{"start":6741.308,"end":6742.188,"text":"上鏈前的問題"},{"start":6763.66,"end":6765.38,"text":"那今天現場的那些進入"},{"start":6791.327,"end":6818.764,"text":"想請教兩位律師就是說就第一個那個非隱私空間到底要不要明文比如說假設是那個用監視器去長期去觀察某一個比如說製毒工廠好了這些其實現在都有在做那為什麼他要明文出來我在想會不會是假設之後有律師來或是被告他來辯護說你這樣子用這樣子監控我是不行的"},{"start":6820.287,"end":6829.659,"text":"那他們為了要避免後續會有這樣子的疑慮所以他們現在把它明文進去是不是這樣那如果要明文進去的話我們是不是要有個期間限制"},{"start":6831.479,"end":6858.541,"text":"那第二個就是 我想問一下說 空拍機為什麼被刪掉是不是他想把它列入是 隱私空間的非侵入性 遠端監視的工具之一呢所以他不特別明文 他不就把它放在是 就是那個遠端監控的工具裡就是跟熱血相儀很像 是不是這樣那如果是這樣的話 這個條文我看起來好像都沒有重罪的 沒有重罪原則"},{"start":6860.117,"end":6861.458,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6883.504,"end":6893.081,"text":"監控到他的位置那會不會有溢出的範圍太多那又再加上就是假設"},{"start":6895.424,"end":6919.189,"text":"這個資料他沒有做一個定期的銷毀如果我們在當中發現了有通緝犯那就算了這好像感覺公共利益比較高可是如果他沒有事後銷毀是不是要放在了偵查機關裡面我事後再有其他的另案我再回頭來調他可能發現說我知道這個人可能在某段期間出現在這裡我回頭調別的案件曾經在這個區間裡面在這個地段裡面M化車的資訊我來查"},{"start":6922.97,"end":6947.122,"text":"是不是可以這樣子另案的使用?因為我覺得好像這些通報法好像都沒有針對像剛剛的科偵法的草案好像都沒有講到跟通報法有關的那個另案偵查的這個部分另案取得的這一塊像遠端監控好了我假設我是要拍制度工廠可是我發現裡面有個殺人行為或是有個性侵行為那這個影片我可不可以用來當證據?"},{"start":6949.488,"end":6975.357,"text":"那如果有這樣的疑慮,我們是不是要把它明文規範進去?以上謝謝我先講前面剛剛那個空拍機的那個問題喔,空拍機當時在討論的時候其實有一個比較大的核心是通訊監察,我想大家如果就通訊家有理解的話,我們過去通訊監察是接受小監聽"},{"start":6976.477,"end":6990.496,"text":"小監聽只能聽手機嗎?我們是認為不可以大監聽不可以大監聽是說不可以在你家裝監視器像那個那個什麼竊聽器那之所以為什麼為什麼不能在家裡面裝這個東西"},{"start":6992.158,"end":7020.343,"text":"從我們過去的理解裡面﹖從德國那邊的看法都認為說﹖這個已經過度的侵犯人民的隱私﹖因為你錄到的東西非常非常的多﹖它可能侵犯到我生活的空間﹖然後它會造成我們生活上的一些困擾而且這個東西在大法官的理解裡面﹖它是一個私人的生活的核心領域﹖它是一個不得侵犯的好 那我們回到空拍機在過去其實大家技術沒有那麼好的時候﹖我要拍到對面﹖或者是拍到人家家裡面是長什麼樣子﹖其實沒有那麼難"},{"start":7021.543,"end":7047.106,"text":"沒有那麼容易啦,其實我也拍不到那可是如果將來空拍機它是一種超級高倍數的有這種攝影功能的時候我找一台空拍機或找一台無人機就盯著你,就飛到你家外面去就一直看裡面它的效果本質上不會只就它本質上就會跟剛剛的大監聽是一樣的我們禁止大監聽的時候可是我們如果又可以大監看"},{"start":7048.414,"end":7074.117,"text":"這會不會矛盾?因為我們所保障的就是這個部分是人的私人核心領域它是不可侵犯的尤其是家、家宅的概念你的家裡面的生活基本上是不應該被侵犯的我們禁止大監聽的同時理論上就會禁止大監看那可是過去的在當時在討論的時候就是特別提出來這一點說我們都不准大監聽的為什麼我們可以同意大監看所以空白機被拿掉了"},{"start":7075.392,"end":7099.665,"text":"另外的問題是像剛剛您提到的那如果不是住家像你剛剛講的製土工廠這個我可不可以在一般的理解反正他就是可能在他比較不會在市區比較像在郊區我就有一個空白機是注意到說他有一個出入的狀況這個當時被理解當然是可以的因為那個部分可能他在理解上不是家宅的概念不是住宅的概念只是這個部分為什麼"},{"start":7100.405,"end":7115.697,"text":"大家會有一些爭議就是說到底哪裡是一個隱私空間這件事情大家的定性上、定義上還沒有辦法把它寫得這麼清楚或漂亮因為你的定義寫不清楚的時候那不如先不要寫"},{"start":7116.778,"end":7117.418,"text":"政議院補充"},{"start":7132.484,"end":7152.164,"text":"這一部分當時我們開會的想法是說他要從空中去調查就表示他一定是從其他方法沒有辦法調查到他才需要把它拉成立體的那我從一般方法調查不到然後從空中才可以調查到的這個方法那他拍攝到的東西是當然"},{"start":7153.476,"end":7155.677,"text":"不具有隱私或是合理秘密期待"},{"start":7175.527,"end":7203.487,"text":"奇怪的就是我們在會議上提出這樣的質疑後看起來是被歸類為就是那如果是比較像就我們剛剛講的例子比較沒有爭議的他們可能以就是第一種非隱私空間調查的他就不特別分空中了他不要去做爭議的但有爭議的部分的話應該就會進到隱私空間調查的範圍這是我對當時那個會議結論的理解那麼就剛剛N化車的部分就這部分其實"},{"start":7204.447,"end":7219.976,"text":"我們有提到這個問題那這個問題的話當時收到回覆是說只要那個M化車那個機器他們不去做進一步的手機資料的比對那其實收集的很多是沒有意義的資訊"},{"start":7220.776,"end":7242.022,"text":"網絡網絡"},{"start":7246.965,"end":7265.936,"text":"因此我們在討論的時候有去強調說那是不是每次偵查的結束後這些無關的資訊都應該要刪除那這目前就最後一次會議的結論是有要把這個N化車每次執行後刪除的這個條文有要寫進來"},{"start":7266.997,"end":7267.277,"text":"非隱私空間調查蓋瓜規範"},{"start":7283.953,"end":7284.033,"text":"範圍不明確"},{"start":7307.212,"end":7324.739,"text":"進到非隱私空間調查我們會有一些擔心不過目前法務部還是先保留了這個規範我覺得確實是他們可能從GPS或是M化測例子想說那未來出現新的手段的時候是不是有一個基本上"},{"start":7326.099,"end":7326.68,"text":"法務部的目標"},{"start":7344.111,"end":7362.399,"text":"實務上哪些具有爭議性的調查方法﹖可能要再請這些調查單位做進一步的說明﹖可能調查局或行政局﹖他們這一點要理解當時在會議上當然是大家認為有一個調查有一個概括規範蠻好的﹖可能覺得安心﹖但是具體的效果確實不明"},{"start":7365.201,"end":7390.522,"text":"你覺得我該補充我補充一下其實概括條文在科技偵查法會比較奇怪為什麼比較奇怪到底什麼叫做新的科技手段我用手機拍照是不是科技手段我用照相機拍照是不是科技手段它也是一種科技那在這種狀況下我們用一個名詞叫做科技手段偵查這是一個很"},{"start":7391.8,"end":7401.084,"text":"最高法院現在既然我們被承認或者是被理解成我們必須支強制處分法定那我們就把每一樣的強制處分模式或者是我們可以接受強制處分的方法我們把它定出來現在他們真的"},{"start":7417.432,"end":7442.943,"text":"在講的就是一直在強調的他們說他們偵查需要GPS他們說偵查需要M化車他們說偵查需要熱顯像前面兩個或熱顯像的部分他說這三個部分大概目前在理解上他確實侵害來說相對來說是比較小的而且在最高法院的判決要求之下也必須要往下做那在這種狀況下其實民團對於這三種科技手段"},{"start":7443.863,"end":7465.339,"text":"的爭執其實沒有很大沒有很大比較大的是他們要加其他的東西那他們的說法或者是理解上就是說我們就一次把它立一立嘛不要每次有新的手段我們再重新立一次法可是大家就剛我剛跟大家分享的或是跟大家討論的就是說現在新的科技手段它只會越來越強大"},{"start":7467.48,"end":7489.371,"text":"當這種東西越來越強大的時候我們要真的那麼一下子就概括的就開給我們的所有的國家機關我們可以讓他們去使用嗎還是說真的有這些手段的時候我們應該還是要回到立法院來大家好好的討論他的利弊來分析他的好壞以後我們再把它放到法律裡面然後讓他們去使用但還是要強調一點就是"},{"start":7491.28,"end":7514.68,"text":"不會因為少了這些所謂的科技偵查手段就不能偵查還是可以偵查我們還是有其他的偵查方式剛剛提到的製毒工廠那個部分我都知道他們是製毒工廠我在外面跟監或者是用其他的方式其實我大概就已經鎖定他了啦現在也沒有這個部分啊那為什麼現在還是查得到呢"},{"start":7517.099,"end":7518.9,"text":"這件事是否真的有那麼絕對必要?"},{"start":7546.94,"end":7547.24,"text":"現在的問題就是"},{"start":7550.785,"end":7579.233,"text":"另案的部分就會分不太會拿到太多當然我們會期望的就是另案的部分將來可能就不應該使用或不能使用可是我覺得這個部分也許要設一些例外我覺得在法治上確實在另案的證據能力的部分有一些例外的規範那個部分也許可以考慮不過我們的通保法是一個絕對排除的規定當然那個是在臺灣我們有當年的歷史脈絡有發生一些事件所以才有那樣子的條文所以這個部分也供大家參考一下"},{"start":7580.898,"end":7600.957,"text":"所以這邊簡單如果做一個小結的話就是因為像我們現在實務跟最高法院大概就是認為對於人民有權力操縱比較大的侵害的強制處分一定要是法定化的那所以說其實他們這邊的概括條款它不可能是一種強制處分的授權它其實就是任意偵查"},{"start":7603.96,"end":7620.455,"text":"日新月異的科技設備來輔助偵查,輔助任意偵查的行為所以它其實本質上就是一個任意偵查的條款我們認為其實沒有必要特別寫出來造成一些誤會,它其實就是任意偵查所以在結論上的話"},{"start":7621.756,"end":7639.033,"text":"蓋瓜規範到底他們想的其實並不會因為有這一條所以任意偵查就可以多做一些對對對那這是就是大家對於任意偵查跟使用科技方式輔助的一個理解那還有大家有問題嗎我們還有一些些的時間"},{"start":7644.329,"end":7659.92,"text":"因為看時間也差不多那我最後提到一下就是那個今天就是司改會跟國會助理工會這邊的合作那他其實是那個我們司改會啊包含在內那麼就是有人權公約事實監督聯盟臺灣人權促進會臺灣勞工陣線還有廢死聯盟跟國際特色組織就組成了一個國會人權平臺"},{"start":7669.566,"end":7695.046,"text":"就這些涉及可能人權保障等等的重大政策的話那這平台會有一些活動跟大家做一些交流還有討論那相信像是像下週四二三的那個死刑違憲的辯論這部分相信大家的辦公室應該也都很關心那剛剛那六個團體也全部都有出法庭自由意見書那就可能快Face辯論完之後"},{"start":7696.187,"end":7713.403,"text":"三個月內要宣判七月二十三之前必要的時候大法會再延長兩個月最後是最慢最慢九二三會有結論等等的可能就像Face的這個題目或者是說一些人權保障的題目大家如果有興趣的話就是我們有一個群組"},{"start":7714.624,"end":7714.785,"text":"主席"},{"start":7746.446,"end":7755.966,"text":"謝謝兩位律師今天帶來的內容然後我們下禮拜助理公會還有另外一場是關於就是財產申報相關的說明會如果有需要的話也歡迎來公會這邊報名謝謝"},{"start":7762.842,"end":7763.682,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}