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42,"text":"如果是應收賬款的收買業務．要將債權轉讓的情況．以契約或書面形式．清楚告知。第五個建立預放案件．軌外吹收相關規範．"},{"start":2387.473,"end":2415.392,"text":"至於說外界對於BNPL及中古車貸款業務的關切租用工會已經訂定了相關的BNPL跟車輛貸款分期及債權讓與交易業務自立規範在今年4月3號網站公告實施那這些規範已經把金管會前面所關切的這些原則充分納入那至於說外界關心"},{"start":2416.588,"end":2445.728,"text":"租金管會監管的金融機構對租用公司的受限情況目前我們的瞭解大概都是依照短中長期依照5P的原則去做處理的到今年1月底大概餘額是3000多億元在整個金融機構受限餘額比率1%我想這部分不論財政部日前表達跟金管會我們都會密切督導我們相關銀行注意相關的風險控管跟售後管理"},{"start":2446.688,"end":2448.189,"text":"好,謝謝黃天牧主委的報告接著我們請財政部莊部長"},{"start":2483.171,"end":2500.103,"text":"主席、各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員會安排相關部會就今天的議題進行專題報告本人陳邀列席深感榮幸僅就本部業務部分做簡要的說明進行指教第一部分就是公股銀行對於融資租賃業"},{"start":2501.324,"end":2504.186,"text":"各銀行在授信的時候是根據下列的原則辦理徵審作業。"},{"start":2519.475,"end":2542.084,"text":"就是要根據授信五批原則辦理貸錢的評估公股銀行必須遵循主管機關所定的規範以及授信的五批原則就授信戶相關的狀況綜合評估省著授信的風險以後才給予核彈第二個部分就是企業授信決策納入的環境社會公司治理就是ESG的因子"},{"start":2542.964,"end":2569.614,"text":"公務銀行將認識客戶KYC納入風險管理的流程．除了針對防治洗錢以及打擊知恐進行審核之外．也檢視受信戶有沒有違反勞動環境法規相關的採儲．射送案件等負面的訊息．並且要瞭解受信戶是否符合ESG永續金融的相關規範．然後再依評估結果進行分級管理．並作為決定"},{"start":2570.874,"end":2593.944,"text":"或調整受信條件及利率等審核的參考。截至今年的1月底,八家公股銀行對融資租賃業的貸款約合計為新台幣1359億元。公股銀行貸後管理追蹤資金的流向公股銀行對於波貸案件都要遵循受信業務相關的作業規範"},{"start":2595.004,"end":2617.547,"text":"追蹤貸放資金的流向還有身貸用途是不是相符．確實審查交易文件合理性或者是真實性．以防範客戶把資金做不當的運用．第二個對貸後的資金用途與銀行合併用途不符的時候．銀行可以依照契約是個案的情形酌情辦理．"},{"start":2619.408,"end":2646.738,"text":"本部督導公股銀行的精進作為．近期外界高度關注部分業者和借戶待放的爭議．所以本部在最近一次的例行性公股金融事業業務研討會．提醒各公股銀行要橫著融資租賃業的營運特性．適時的精進相關徵售性業務的管理措施．來落實貸前徵售性的規範．以及貸後的追蹤管理"},{"start":2647.618,"end":2653.743,"text":"臺北市租賃商業同業工會已經在113年的4月3日對於從事先買後付就BMPL業務以及車輛交易業務分別訂定了自律規範本部會督請公股銀行對於辦理相關受信業務的時候要並同省著借戶自律規範的執行情形並落實金融主管機關監理的規範來善盡企業社會責任"},{"start":2676.34,"end":2705.818,"text":"公股銀行辦理授信案件都必須要遵循金融主管機關以及中華民國銀行商業同業公會全國聯合會所定的各項徵授信規範以及五批原則並且將授信作業要納入ESG的審核項目在風險可控下評估妥儲省剩的評估借款的合理性注意資金的用途還有貸後資金流向確實執行撥貸前交易查證及貸後的追蹤管理"},{"start":2707.281,"end":2727.033,"text":"本部將根據督導公股銀行,善用金融的資源,落實責任授信,發揮我們金融正向的影響力,促成企業與社會及環境的共融發展。以上說明,敬請各位委員會與指教。謝謝。好,謝謝莊部長的報告。接著我們請經濟部陳政次、鄭齊進行專題報告。"},{"start":2735.575,"end":2758.748,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天奉邀出席貴委員會針對融資公司和消費者保障權益的相關主題提出專題報告深感榮幸之就跟經濟部有關的部分簡要報告如下第一個,坊間融資公司的主要業務主要是經營資金貸放、債權售讓、汽機車和機器設備抵押、借款等業務"},{"start":2760.169,"end":2767.216,"text":"有介於消費者權益的保障攸關整體社會經濟穩定跟公平發展．對於消費者和融資公司債務傾償爭議間的消費者保護問題．經濟部持續辦理消費者債務傾償的個案協助．提供債務處理．法律專業諮詢．促成消費者和融資公司協商或和解．"},{"start":2781.75,"end":2803.288,"text":"統計4年來經濟部協助消費者和融資公司債務協商案件的性質已有擔保債務佔多數．例如提供契機撤回擔保的貸款這一類型的債務佔整體協商案件的8成5其次則為沒有擔保貸款消費者以購買商品的合約為提供擔保品向融資公司貸款事後再分期還款"},{"start":2804.569,"end":2817.018,"text":"經濟部辦理消費者債務清償個案協助﹐常見的協處訴求如下﹐第一個是希望能夠降低償還金額﹐也就是在降低收取的利息﹐或只要還本金就來節省債務﹐來減輕債務人的負擔﹐"},{"start":2820.881,"end":2848.759,"text":"財務人希望能夠解免提前清償違約金．提前結薪都有違約金的問題．因此消費者希望能夠就違約金的部分予以濁減或免除．希望能夠延長還款期限．當消費者遇到經濟困難的時候．請求融資公司能將原來有的還款期限拉長數期或展延．以降低月繳金額．如果碰到融資行為涉及詐騙．"},{"start":2850.22,"end":2854.965,"text":"在目前所辦理的債務協商案件中以有擔保債務為大宗其中又以汽車作為擔保品的借貸金額為主因此針對消費者與融資公司有擔保債務的爭議問題"},{"start":2870.94,"end":2891.998,"text":"經濟部目前已經根據《消費者保護法》第17條第一項規定進行中古汽車買賣定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項的修正這是因為清楚明確的資訊揭露有助於減少消費者和融資公司之間的有擔保債務爭議中古汽車買賣定型化契約修正草案應該記載的事項"},{"start":2894.04,"end":2912.566,"text":"在第6點我們建議明確的要求企業經營者如果有轉介融資機構或消費者資金融通應該接受由其轉介的融資機構的完整名車以及消費借貸契約的相關資訊藉以降低雙方未來爭議的可能杜絕不法車商假買賣徵貸款"},{"start":2915.568,"end":2934.697,"text":"前臺草案的修正內容方向目前跟消防團體、工會團體和相關業者已經達成共識。我們已經報請行政院等到修正通過後就會透過相關工協會轉資會員也會在我們的官網露出並舉辦宣導活動來加強對業者和消費者的宣導與教育。"},{"start":2935.717,"end":2961.676,"text":"我們未來也會在法規制度宣傳教育消費者保障多個方面針對消費者權益的保護和相關部會共同合作來做出貢獻經濟部為了保障消費者權益持續協助消費者和融資公司個案協商提供債務處理和法律專業諮詢來促成個案和解減輕對消費者的影響也會持續檢視相關定型化契約的因記載及不得記載事項"},{"start":2962.777,"end":2970.621,"text":"例如轉介融資公司提供資金融通者．將要求資訊充分揭露．來保障消費者權益以上進行指教謝謝"},{"start":2984.468,"end":3012.161,"text":"主席各位委員大家好今天陳貴委員會邀請就如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象．以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益提出專案報告請報告如下敬請各位委員不吝指教第一個有關融資公司衍生的消費增益案件其類型由於商品或服務業者跟金融機構或者是融資公司合作提供消費者分期付款的消費方式為現行常見的交易形態"},{"start":3013.201,"end":3031.817,"text":"經查109年到112年間．各地方政府在受理涉及融資公司的消費相關的消費爭議案件每年大概是300到400件．以去年112年為例．消費爭議太陽已無法解約．或者是支付高額手續費．使得提前清償為大宗的消費爭議類型．"},{"start":3033.158,"end":3058.694,"text":"其次的消費爭議類型．包含了提供服務業的業者歇業以後．卻仍然需要負擔貸款的債務．或者是業者的話術、詐騙．或者是消費者不知道這個是融資貸款．或者是違約金、利息過高等等相關的類型．有關於融資公司所設的行業別．去年的爭議案件數來看．排名前三名的．第一個是補習班．第二個是瘦身美容．第三個是交友服務的三個類型．"},{"start":3059.774,"end":3074.204,"text":"案件數大概佔整體的融資公司消費爭議案件的七成此外,去年發生了有關於大專院校學生遭業者與無卡分歧的話術詐騙的案件也是透過融資公司辦理貸款的方式而引起各界的關切"},{"start":3075.325,"end":3095.295,"text":"接下來跟各位報告有關於本處針對此類消費爭議所採取的因應措施第一個部分是法制面的那增訂了相關的定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項的條款來保護這個消費者的權益那有限於在105年陸續發生了一些這個業者的歇業倒閉的停業的一些衍生的消費爭議"},{"start":3096.215,"end":3115.695,"text":"所以本處就針對這個常常跟這個融資公司結合的特定行業例如瘦身美容、美容、短期補習班、網際網路教學服務、健身中心跟健身教練這6項來協調各主管機關在各該主管的這個定型化契約應記載跟不得記載事項中增訂了消費借貸契約的條款將前"},{"start":3118.097,"end":3123.741,"text":"前開比較常見的消費正義態樣來納入規範以保護消費者的權益這些規範的內容主要是向業者來辦理消費貸款有一些業者必須告知或揭露的相關資訊簡單報告如下例如要告訴消費者這個契約是消費借貸"},{"start":3140.874,"end":3166.602,"text":"消費者會不清楚．還有一些利息等資訊．還有契約這個內容的這個資訊的揭露．那第三個是有關於這個借貸機構的一些資訊．第四個呢徵定了猶豫期．也就是消費者呢．可以在這個辦理消費貸款經合準7日內．隨時不負任何理由．可以用書面來通知業者．或者是貸款機構來解除．或終止這個消費借貸契約．第五個是有關於收費明確化．要將這個"},{"start":3168.243,"end":3183.684,"text":"不得請求額外收取的費用也予以明定．第6是業者無法繼續提供給付．比如說業者有歇業、停業等情況．沒有辦法繼續提供給付的時候．這時候消費者也可以主張向貸款機構申請指付業者沒有提供服務部分的貸款餘額"},{"start":3185.887,"end":3201.805,"text":"消費者借貸契約同時終止跟解除的一些揭露事項例如這個終止或解除本契約的時候消費借貸這個契約也要同時終止或解除那最後呢必須要有信用事項告知消費者也就是說提醒消費者說如果"},{"start":3202.385,"end":3226.003,"text":"消費借貸有爭議或糾紛時﹐未來可能會影響個人信用聲譽以上是有關於法制面的部分第二個部分是有關於宣導的部分宣導部分本處結合各主管機關﹐包含經管會、教育部、內政部﹐還有本處本身﹐辦理各種宣導﹐包含平面媒體、電子媒體或實體活動﹐在校園、社區、網路﹐對民眾廣為宣導﹐詳細內容請參閱報告"},{"start":3230.546,"end":3236.988,"text":"最後,如前所述,本處為了保惠消費者權益,我們針對6項特定行業已經協調主管機關,在各該主管的定型化契約應記載、不得記載事項中,已經納入消費借貸契約規範。"},{"start":3248.132,"end":3274.133,"text":"不過,因為融資公司提供消費借貸的類型非常多元．各項商品和主管機關難以逐一規範．而且,因為定型化契約的規範．主要是界定商品服務的企業經營者．和消費者之間的權利物關係．對於融資公司行為面的規制．恐仍然有其局限性．因此,為了強化融資公司管理面向的部分．金管會已經請臺北市助理"},{"start":3274.893,"end":3294.704,"text":"商業同業工會嚴定相關的自立規範也在4月3號嚴定完成但是相關的執行成效可能未來我們還要持續的觀察金管會也在今年年底要完成三大上市櫃租賃公司的內控查核本處目前也正在收整有關於國外對融資公司的規管情形以及國內產業營運狀況等資料未來我們會提供相關機關後續嚴定融資公司管理機制的參考本處也將持續的"},{"start":3302.908,"end":3312.393,"text":"關注這些消費爭議的形態．也會請地方政府的消保官．積極處理相關的消費爭議．以保護消費者的權益以上報告 敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":3344.781,"end":3348.665,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請經濟部陳次長還有這個財政部的莊部長陳次長、莊部長請還有金管會的黃主委黃主委請"},{"start":3360.768,"end":3376.436,"text":"委員好陳次長你好我們兩位主委跟部長我想今天我們要討論的是非金融業的這些民間借貸業者因為債務的問題滾雪球後所衍生的社會問題與亂象那我請問"},{"start":3385.22,"end":3406.827,"text":"市長這些民間借貸業者區分大中小型的規模以現況的瞭解和發生亂象關聯性較高的業者是以哪一種規模的業者較多?市長我們瞭解大部分會跟消費者有糾紛的主要還是中小型的市長我請問"},{"start":3409.13,"end":3426.445,"text":"又或者各類行業者都存在亂象的疑慮因為資產管理公司辦理房貸的民間二胎業務是不是也存有相雷同這些融資公司的亂象"},{"start":3428.227,"end":3450.082,"text":"報告委員因為房貸的部分我們經濟部沒有接觸我們主要是針對消費者有比方說汽車做擔保品的部分那我們就會來協助那我請問吼像這個這些民間業者的主管機關根據法令及實際的狀況經濟部到底你們有沒有可以監察的這個權利啊"},{"start":3451.963,"end":3473.577,"text":"我們手上的政策工具相關的法律最主要就是消費者保護法如果它涉及消費者爭議我們一個政策工具就是規定定型化契約裡面應記載及不得記載事項第二個是可以協助配合行政院消保處來協處爭議那你們有沒有人力去管理有沒有管理的人力有沒有辦法解決這個亂象"},{"start":3476.063,"end":3494.515,"text":"法務委員這個應該要各部會來各部會那你們經濟部到底扮演是什麼角色我們就是消費者保護這一部分只有這一部分而已是是好那你請回去那個莊部長我請教齁因為今天吶宮古航庫的董總都在場那你說目前八大航庫換款"},{"start":3496.196,"end":3500.237,"text":"各位委員報告一月底為止我們八家公股行會對融資租賃業的貸款餘額是1359億這是這個數字"},{"start":3521.661,"end":3522.501,"text":"中央銀行確實從民國59年到102年底有"},{"start":3537.566,"end":3561.272,"text":"收集民間借貸利率這樣事情那他調查方式就是委託給商商營對臺北、高雄、臺中的一些往來客戶取樣去做調查那當然目前是沒有那至於要不要再做這個重啟這個調查跟統計我想這涉及到央行的權責我們是尊重央行的一個意見的那莊部長我請教是不是要透過調查這個統計資料能夠更有機會來了解整個民間借貸"},{"start":3567.533,"end":3594.762,"text":"亂象背景的陳盈也才有辦法來找出很客觀如何去解決規範這些業者的一個辦法你的看法呢?是,那我想是不是只能透過這個方式我覺得倒也還可以再做研議因為現行來說不管剛剛經濟部也好或是消保會他們其實大家都各部會都會用他們各自的一個全責的一個方式"},{"start":3595.582,"end":3607.972,"text":"來做一些管理跟規範同時剛剛也說相關的工會他也訂了一些規範那這個規範裡面很重要就是對一些利率的部分要能夠介入讓消費者能夠清楚自己所擔負的一個情形"},{"start":3610.854,"end":3623.39,"text":"那個部長你請回我來請問主委主委對於三道猴子的一生這些動畫描述這個融資主任公司推出先買後戶這些業務導致消費性這些貸款的悲劇"},{"start":3628.736,"end":3640.98,"text":"金管會銀行局表示有關切這件事更讓立委關注來點名中租、和潤、玉龍等三大融資公司有成作"},{"start":3647.142,"end":3648.142,"text":"我跟委員分幾點報告第一點"},{"start":3675.868,"end":3701.826,"text":"代放不是金融的特許業務是根據民法所做的那我們的業務報告也分析租用公司有存在的價值尤其前面講他五項業務中至少有三項是對中小企業相關不經過銀行體系提供credit而由融資公司提供我覺得是有他的價值的現在只是涉及個人融資比方車貸或BMPL部分在行為面"},{"start":3702.91,"end":3703.33,"text":"提供的資料"},{"start":3725.555,"end":3743.523,"text":"主委啊,如果要限縮應該要考量有哪些有別於金融業貸放門檻的條件,如果不限縮會不會因為過度放任,讓這些非金融借貸的低門檻導致明顯無能力"},{"start":3744.743,"end":3751.706,"text":"議員您關切的非常重要這也是為什麼我們在報告中第6、第7頁講到幾個重點包括資訊的揭露還有契約跟書面形式都要充分告知"},{"start":3764.092,"end":3789.78,"text":"這些我們都會從監理的專業那結合消保相關的議題跟財政部密切合作因為這裡面金融機構對他的授信也是一個需要去關切的地方但是我覺得對於融資公司合法對於一般中小企業的做的這些授信業務那跟這個事情是沒有關係的我們在乎的是個人消費車代BMPL的行為面的規範"},{"start":3790.7,"end":3818.794,"text":"主委因為車貸及信用等債務的問題全家燒炭自殺民間團體憂心新型態融資的債務變相讓債務人陷入倚債養債那超貸的陷阱衍生的亂象那我請問主委就你了解民間借貸現行法令的這個完全幾乎沒有辦法可管"},{"start":3828.058,"end":3842.366,"text":"現在依照民法最高利率是16那所以原則上依照他的風險的屬性在16之內去收取基本上是並沒有違反這個最高利率的規定但是現在就是在過程中"},{"start":3843.186,"end":3858.456,"text":"他中間的比方說你的違約金或者說你違約的時候你另外再加計的這個利率有沒有讓消費者在一開始就知道那這些都是在這次整個的調整過程中特別要去重視的"},{"start":3859.056,"end":3877.811,"text":"主委因為金管會表示要先買後戶後戶業以及這個租賃業都屬於民間借貸並不是這個金融特許事業那金管會也表態不是民間融資業的這些主管機關那我請問主委"},{"start":3878.692,"end":3893.859,"text":"那這個融資公司是不是因為缺乏主管的監督機關啊所以才產生這些亂象就你了解立專法訂定主管機關是不是就能夠解決這些亂象"},{"start":3895.307,"end":3895.467,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":3917.243,"end":3919.665,"text":"財政部莊部長提醒各大公股銀行針對租賃公司授信案要強化代後的管理就是要追蹤他等資金的用途可見"},{"start":3944.056,"end":3955.587,"text":"可見得只要有利可圖就連國家也可以加入賺錢的行列那我請問主委到底是人造成的亂象還是錢造成的亂象依您看"},{"start":3957.02,"end":3957.24,"text":"因為齁公民"},{"start":3979.057,"end":4007.663,"text":"銀行庫針對這些融資主任公司授信案有能力或法令依循能夠充分代後的管理追蹤資金的用途嗎一您看有沒有辦法我們督導的金融機構應該都有這種專業的能力這是他的本身的核心的競爭力主委這些民間借貸業者的狀況出現亂象除了融資公司有主要責任外提供資金的金主"},{"start":4008.883,"end":4009.103,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":4039.605,"end":4042.05,"text":"金融業借貸嚴格規定來排擠稅收財會停額酬錢以債養債的這種亂象"},{"start":4047.967,"end":4048.467,"text":"謝謝林德輝委員的質詢接著我們請吳炳祐委員質詢"},{"start":4088.427,"end":4091.648,"text":"主席麻煩請金管會黃主委有請黃主委委員長主委長請問你是什麼時候開始擔任金管會主委這個職務2020年5月2020年的5月那到現在是多久的時間"},{"start":4116.7,"end":4144.742,"text":"3年11個月左右我在財政委員會今年是第13年我從2012年開始就在財政委員會到現在都沒有離開過我要非常肯定你我認為這13年來我遇到過的金管會主委你是我心目中做得最好的第一名"},{"start":4145.714,"end":4159.74,"text":"有為有守又能夠很理性地針對問題回答然後務實地針對事情來處理我在這裡給予你高度的肯定那當然因為階段性的因素"},{"start":4162.072,"end":4185.56,"text":"現在已經發布下一任的金融管委主委他5204會接任你沒有辦法繼續在這邊為國家貢獻我覺得這個是一個我們國家的一個重大的損失那也祝福你謝謝有你這樣子的責任觀讓我在這個財務委會這13年來看到一個非常棒的模範在這裡跟你表達敬意再來"},{"start":4187.355,"end":4212.54,"text":"再來就是要問今天這個問題其實有很多的問題你剛剛的回答都已經講得很清楚了銀行為什麼有一些民間借貸會產生就是因為銀行的利率比較高所以他當然要求信用的風險要比較低風險之所在就是利潤之所在那這些民間企業冒著比較高的風險做這些借貸"},{"start":4215.254,"end":4242.143,"text":"問題是有一些法令對他們的捆綁變成他們也要託法比如說公司法除非你跟公司業務是公司法第15條規定你跟他之間有業務往來或是其他相關的規定否則你待遇他的不能超過公司的禁止的40%嘛所以就變成有很多事實上是在做融資但是為了規避這條他用非融資的方式在解決就是買來"},{"start":4245.427,"end":4272.614,"text":"請這個當事人買來然後再賣回去然後再把這中間買來賣去的債權再轉讓給第三者這中間會衍生非常多的問題因為為了要脫這個法所以一個最大的問題在哪裡呢借貸者他在法律知識以及在金融的需求上他的地位明顯不等同於這些租賃公司或是融資公司嘛融資公司、租賃公司他們"},{"start":4274.482,"end":4295.733,"text":"在法律上的能力也好在借款人對人有所求的時候通常是站在一個比較低的位階會被任人要求所以就會出現很多你剛剛講到的狀況其實那些巧逆名目的收費還不是只有這個"},{"start":4297.523,"end":4317.872,"text":"委約金這個問題因為委約金也是民法的規定就除了利息之外有時候他要求要手續費然後手續費之外要服務費那另外委約金當然是有還有的要設定費如果車子被拖掉還有拖掉費、降價費、外訪費他立了一大堆的名目"},{"start":4319.178,"end":4345.82,"text":"要跟這個需要借貸人拿這些手續費所以民法雖然有規定利率16%為限超過16%是自然債務可是他不把這個規律在不把這個算入在這個利率以內啊他把他這個算為行政程序所需要的費用他自己去發明一些收費的標準那像這樣子的狀況"},{"start":4347.526,"end":4376.534,"text":"假設沒有一個主管機關主管然後經濟部也只有管公司登記常常出現的問題是一定要等到消費者不堪受受不了了來陳情了來陳述了浮出冰山的海面的冰山你腳才會被看見那其實在海水底下更深的地方更多的受害者是看不到的這個人不知道你有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":4377.898,"end":4405.79,"text":"委員指示的的確是一個目前社會上需要去重視的一個議題那當然我必須要也跟您報告那因為長久以來金融監理體制的方法論是以機構別作為管理那有時候非屬金融專屬義務就是吸收存款以外的像獸性這種因為是一般社會都有不同的機構它是屬於行為面的東西所以你如果真的要"},{"start":4406.61,"end":4417.037,"text":"要讓這些行業內的東西要納入金融體系去監管以它那個範圍一定要設定得很清楚我也不贊成納入金融體系監管但是"},{"start":4418.226,"end":4443.383,"text":"你知道嗎現在的社會氛圍就是發生了任何的困難政府都要幫我解決啊我賺不到錢是政府的錯啊我怎麼樣努力我只要沒有得到很好的待遇也都是政府的錯所以現在一個問題是社會的氛圍是這樣如果以我讀法律一輩子的觀念這個本來就是"},{"start":4444.344,"end":4465.493,"text":"一種借貸行為那但是問題是民法的設計啊它事實上在權力、在知識、在法律能力上面相對等人之間訂立的平等契約啦那這個當第1會不相當的時候訂立的契約不可能平等這個部分的時候當然我們現在經濟不由"},{"start":4468.464,"end":4496.696,"text":"消費者保護的這一部分可以做一點點彌補可是更多的我現在講的是更多的黑數是沒有來陳述的消保這一邊可能也看不到啊有很多人在我當民意代表這麼多年的狀況之下也有很多爸爸媽媽心急的小孩子的信用是不是會破產一而再、再而三幫小孩出來清理這些債務其實他的小孩都已經成年了"},{"start":4498.57,"end":4519.347,"text":"次數多到後來我還勸這個父母親說你這樣不是辦法跟你兒子談清楚因為你每一次都幫他解決幫他擦屁股他就在外面繼續弄他只要你幫他保護了他的信用他的半張卡他就可以借款他就可以先買後付先享受後付款"},{"start":4520.543,"end":4542.437,"text":"曾經有這樣子的夫很熟的我們新莊區的里長我就不要講他的名字一年幫他兒子解決了四次而且是幾乎每一兩年就要來找我一次要來怎麼處理所以我說像這樣的狀況就是說我們應該要來展現用什麼樣的方式去墊高消費者"},{"start":4543.561,"end":4558.914,"text":"的知識能力、法律能力跟地位讓跟借貸公司之間至少能夠取得比較接近的平台那比較平等的地位那這樣民法的體系才有辦法彰顯他的能力那這一點當然不是"},{"start":4560.7,"end":4579.71,"text":"求責於金管會而是你說的沒有錯這是一個政府的整體問題問題是會陷入這種低信用債信不好或是說他沒有辦法在正常的金融體系得到融資的他本來的社會地位社經地位就是比較弱勢所以"},{"start":4582.304,"end":4601.516,"text":"要多考慮這一部分我的意思是這樣我了解其實金融的服務本來就是要也要普惠所以對於這種社群訂閱相對沒有那麼高的人他在取得金融服務不見得這種金融機構取得我覺得要有一些通牌的教育或能力建構的一個機制是"},{"start":4602.557,"end":4632.057,"text":"你記不記得印度有一位諾貝爾的得獎者他去普惠金融他去借很小的金額借很小的金額而且他是成立銀行喔喔那個是對所以很小的金額讓人家去創業當然那是因為印度那時候的經濟環境還是比較小的金額就可以創業的環境嘛要學習這樣子的精神也就是說我也鼓勵銀行喔如果金額是很小的"},{"start":4633.257,"end":4653.763,"text":"他本身在信是沒有破產的你在審查上面不應該那麼嚴格因為你這個企業你放貸作為借錢賺錢你也是賺取利差嘛但是如果經費很小的幾萬塊錢的借貸如果能夠有普惠金融更高一層次的觀念"},{"start":4656.121,"end":4683.724,"text":"一般的人不會存心要來騙你幾萬塊啦那除非他的債信真的沒有辦法那債信沒有辦法銀行有的是單帳體系他這麼小的金額他有辦法來解決嘛所以我是覺得說我在這邊講也是各位公股銀行的董事長也在這裡財政部長也在這邊金管會員也在這裡我在這裡意思說如果你能夠把金融體系的這個放貸的範圍稍微再延伸出去一點"},{"start":4686.125,"end":4692.296,"text":"這個相對弱勢的保護就會再多一就再往前一步然後這個未來"},{"start":4694.249,"end":4719.051,"text":"在消費者保護那一方面如果去墊高消費者的社會這個法律的能力財務的能力等等讓他能夠在普通的借貸上形成一個平等的我覺得這可能對我們今天這個議題會比較有幫助了不然我們今天你們的做法已經很好了可是你無論怎麼做他們這一批人既然要在這邊謀利就會想出變形的方法繼續做是"},{"start":4720.672,"end":4737.19,"text":"你記不記得我們以前一開始要處理George and Mary現金借貸卡那後來又處理一連串的金融危機的這些歷史的過程因為你一直都在金管會嘛所以你都了解嘛"},{"start":4738.055,"end":4760.954,"text":"所以我是覺得今天光從這個議題上面來談是如果要講得比較深一點的話要從這個角度來思考那另外最後還是再次的謝謝你為我們國家的貢獻我覺得你這三年多來將近四年金融會主委的任期對我們國家做出非常多的貢獻在這裡表達感謝謝謝你謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝吳秉瑞委員的質詢也辛苦黃主委接著我們請賴世寶委員質詢"},{"start":4786.465,"end":4789.506,"text":"我們看到前天差一點北台就限定備轉容量"},{"start":4817.458,"end":4833.215,"text":"臺租臺積電幫忙發電工業用戶配合就昨天開始桃園上萬戶停電了全國停電了我們看到的現象是什麼4月1號開始漲價了"},{"start":4835.546,"end":4845.833,"text":"看到的是什麼?增資,把你們台電的資本額從3300增資到5800,增資了2000多億,然後疫後經濟每個人發6000塊的時候同時給台電500億,現在又給台電1000億,所以外加補貼1500億了。"},{"start":4857.692,"end":4864.456,"text":"昨天怎麼會416上萬戶的限電現在才四月份沒有很熱七月份的時候怎麼辦這個跟地震有關係我請台電來處理地震"},{"start":4884.022,"end":4890.705,"text":"昨天有關於桃園大停電事實上它是因為電纜故障第一個是有電纜故障另外一條潰線它斷線所以這兩個情形之下導致我們桃園在不同時段會有萬戶的停電所以這個地方是要今天會不會再停電了今天"},{"start":4913.675,"end":4923.561,"text":"今天會不會再停電?我跟委員報告齁,全台的虧欠差不多有一萬一千條,那這一部分,我們...所以你不敢保證今天不會停電喔?喔!專種啊!"},{"start":4938.771,"end":4950.521,"text":"我剛才講了給你們這麼多錢結果你的成績是讓老百姓每天都在揣著頭可能會停電每天都有停電全台虧欠你管理的問題啊我們這個方面我們會檢討這樣而已來市長我問你啊你河山廠的1號機7月份要處理是不是確定的"},{"start":4964.571,"end":4993.04,"text":"法委應該是停機不是除役啦除役還有一個程序要進行停機所以隨時可以開機停機跟除役什麼不一樣請能源署副署長跟我們報告他那個是因為運轉執照到期所以他就要進入因為運轉執照到期所以他要進入停機的狀態停機不等於除役喔他運轉執照已經到期了他運轉執照已經到期了所以不能運轉了"},{"start":4994.429,"end":5003.655,"text":"什麼情況可以再運轉?是,因為運轉得到到期以後就不能運轉了。什麼時候可以再運轉?要執照,要多久時間可以再申請再運轉執照?"},{"start":5008.671,"end":5033.698,"text":"他現在我記得他依照現行的規定他申請的時間已經過期了所以都沒有申請了所以也就是告訴我們老百姓給台電這麼多錢隨時都提心吊膽可能會今天停電可能今天限電市長啊、幾位長官啊人家整理出來了河澳河山如果延逸"},{"start":5035.417,"end":5051.793,"text":"10年可以替國家省了或者賺了一兆以上啊!錯誤的人員政策就是一個付這麼大的代價好不好!幾位請回喔!我想請金管委的黃主委"},{"start":5059.639,"end":5088.373,"text":"委員好剛才委員肯定了我很早就肯定你了說不定我太早肯定你了害你丟棺你不一定的這樣實際上人家做就不錯了人家就這樣很可憐該做的該嚴格的嚴格該這個監理的該發展的發展你怎麼會沒有繼續做呢奇怪的來來莊部長一起來你繼續做的兩個人對照一下看這個"},{"start":5093.778,"end":5103.408,"text":"來部長你最近心情不錯吧最近心情不錯吧心情沒有任何變動沒有變動電話接到了嘛你那時候來這裡說沒有接的電話接到了嗎"},{"start":5106.063,"end":5132.429,"text":"跟委員報告,所有的人事還是以準行政院長、主委院長的發布為主。你什麼時候接到電話的?這個我沒有辦法跟您回答。這不會講就對了齁,這是你跟他的秘密了齁。部長,人家相中你繼續做的理由是什麼?你知道嗎?我想這個部分我也沒有辦法回答,我知道了齁。黃主委,為什麼你會被換掉?"},{"start":5134.211,"end":5152.331,"text":"這也不是今天討論的議題啊!我關心啊!中華民國的好官被換掉我關心啊!我不幹嘛!這不是浪費時間喔!這不是浪費時間喔!你們應該看新主委不是看我這個要離開的人啦!所以不要浪費時間在我身上啦!"},{"start":5153.151,"end":5168.78,"text":"不是這樣,這個最少肯定要讓大家知道說你是好官你沒有繼續做出國家的損失,都這樣說說不定啊,昨天聽到以後會繼續讓你當政委,不一定啊可是我要提的東西啊,請你坐實回答我肯定你是因為你講真話,那部長先不要走,還有問題要問你"},{"start":5182.108,"end":5184.189,"text":"準經濟部長郭志輝他就是針對他收到客戶的錢他是過路財神耶把他變成自己的業績、股價上漲違反2014年法院判定的違反增加法171條判了一年十個月違反三塊法這個三個月變負歷史叫顧立雄"},{"start":5210.7,"end":5228.451,"text":"我都高度質疑喔今天要不是顧立雄厲害喔換一個李立雄或者白立雄可能就沒有這樣的結果給他緩刑欸緩刑五年欸來來來法務部的那個檢察室的副市長來一下嗎長官來一下請問請問那個副市長啊緩刑有沒有罪啊"},{"start":5240.4,"end":5252.869,"text":"跟委員報告緩刑表示說法院認定事實之後認為是構成要件該當但是按照刑法74條的規定認為宣告刑在兩年以下和一定的條件以暫不執行這個宣告行為適當"},{"start":5254.524,"end":5271.891,"text":"對,沒有,你講那個落落凍,我們聽人聽不是很懂,白話我告訴你有沒有罪啦,這樣啦,有沒有罪有沒有罪緩刑那就是法院認定甲官起訴的事實會該當那個構圖的要件有沒有罪嘛,我就跟你講,有嘛,我就問你這一句什麼,一句就好了,一句就好了,說我落落凍我聽我不好,有啦,這個,有罪"},{"start":5279.912,"end":5308.458,"text":"他說他這個企業經營得很好有半導體委員會、賣魚委員會臺灣這樣的企業家很沒啦為什麼一定要找一個有人色有缺陷的郭志輝我就不懂啦這個東西跟你跟副市長沒有關係啦我要強調的就是我請教那個你先請回你請回我就要你這個答案啦你沒罪啦不是沒罪啦對不對"},{"start":5310.543,"end":5332.64,"text":"我就請教這個主委或者局長啊這個我能不能說董事長跟財管人員最後假帳被檢調抓到以後自己才去把他就把他重新的更正回來可不可以這樣講可不可以這個可以請莊局長跟您報告嗎謝謝莊局長來請請講"},{"start":5335.489,"end":5348.826,"text":"跟委員報告他這個事情應該是說他財報太早入帳資訊不正確不正確之後再來他就後來就重編重編之後後面的時間才檢察官起訴是起訴"},{"start":5353.431,"end":5379.661,"text":"是檢察官去調查以後他才自己把它編過來如果檢察官沒有介入的話他怎麼會去自己把它重新更正啊那重新更正的話根本沒有罪根本不會判罪啊跟委員報告他這個案子因為對方新加坡的公司有來對他起告所以檢察官在後面才去執行對嘛就是就是他把過路財神人家的錢把他當作自己的收入嘛是這個要怎麼在他96年已經重編了"},{"start":5381.792,"end":5402.053,"text":"重編是因為檢察官是戒律調查在重編他不會主動自己重編的啦自己全編不會有罪啊怎麼會有罪檢察官在98年的時候我們這個你他還沒有來當警察我主委你不會聽他講話啦這個來我們來看一下齁那個財政部長我就問你一句話"},{"start":5404.536,"end":5430.685,"text":"李遠哲說2050的進行排外不可能臺灣要課碳稅不要忘了李遠哲在2020是大力支持賴清德跟幾個綠營的大佬四個大佬登了一個廣告請財務部不要選2020給賴清德選他是非常挺賴清德賴清德會受到影響的要課碳稅李遠哲講了請問你有沒有規劃課碳稅"},{"start":5432.158,"end":5439.442,"text":"財政部目前也在收集國際間的相關的一些資料,看看國際間怎麼樣做,那所以我們會持續的去關注國際的做法以及對岸碳稅的一個,目前就是我們的收集資料中"},{"start":5459.932,"end":5461.232,"text":"公司法15條規定公司不可以借貸給私人"},{"start":5484.995,"end":5502.48,"text":"我們去撈啊只要公司名字有借貸有融資或者資融融資倒過來資融有258家但是一般的統計了海選的話說最少幾千家他只是不掛這個名字而已現在好了"},{"start":5504.568,"end":5527.557,"text":"一百零六年行政院開設議會說要求主管機關應該是經管會黃主委到現在為止沒有你不當主管機關對您的資訊是正確的在一百零六年行政院到現在當時並沒有對這個議題有最後的決定所以到現在沒有人管"},{"start":5529.299,"end":5546.212,"text":"但是從過去這一年,我們其實陸陸續續從行為內已經在做相關的讀讀。好,最後一句要講完就可以了。這裡面是根據麻吉佩他的資料。年輕人借六萬買機車扣九千塊利息。"},{"start":5547.381,"end":5547.541,"text":"請問經國會怎麼看?"},{"start":5573.72,"end":5585.088,"text":"委員您指正的很重要所以今天我們在報告中也特別提到這種不當名目收取利率或是利率跟違約金並收的方式都會在這次的規範中去做處理謝謝"},{"start":5591.432,"end":5591.612,"text":"郭國文委員"},{"start":5618.787,"end":5621.411,"text":"謝謝主席我先請黃天牧主委"},{"start":5627.004,"end":5652.354,"text":"主委好,主委這段時間您辛苦了本人到財政委員會也是進入第五年剛好跟你的任期適逢重疊的比例算相當的高我個人對你的施政風格送你四個字是行穩漸進你不是只有走陳而已你也有面對一些事實變化而予以介入"},{"start":5653.294,"end":5665.314,"text":"但我必須說就我觀察您是因為任期的因素而不是個別的事件但是新主委已經出爐我想就教於黃主委對於未來的新主委你有沒有什麼期許"},{"start":5667.096,"end":5670.258,"text":"那有沒有哪些你未完成的政策目標你認為應該請他繼續完成的?"},{"start":5695.546,"end":5720.185,"text":"我想大家比較關心的就是虛擬資產的專法這個部分我們啟動了9月底之前會完成的這個部分是大家很關心那另外就是今天討論的這些社會關注的BNPL這些議題可能都要再凝聚共識那我想他非常"},{"start":5721.386,"end":5722.307,"text":"後續的部分在您的報告內容當中"},{"start":5737.662,"end":5754.509,"text":"就今天的主題的部分我覺得你今天主題的部分嚴格來說你大概把整個這個融資公司雖然分為三項但是基本上你認為比較有問題的部分應該是屬於類似肖代的部分比較有問題是氣代的部分似乎比較沒有爭議對不對"},{"start":5756.05,"end":5773.215,"text":"但是期待的比例人員是高達53%也是高達3800多億也就是說為什麼這些中小企業必須要透過融資公司才能取得資金站在一個普惠金融的角度當中我相信銀行局也好公股銀行也好還有努力之處嘛不是嗎"},{"start":5774.255,"end":5774.675,"text":"對,但是我一般聽到坊間齁"},{"start":5800.955,"end":5817.046,"text":"銀行的手續很麻煩等等反正就有諸多因素代表還有改革的空間但是企業民間取得資金的部分如果把它切為三層的話銀行是一層融資公司一層還有就是地下錢莊融資公司就很像是地上錢莊"},{"start":5819.028,"end":5819.368,"text":"但我們請部長"},{"start":5833.644,"end":5849.097,"text":"中部長,然後還有包括陳正智也來一下齁我舉一個例子齁我問部長你也對外表示公股銀行齁不要用先買後付齁就禁止這樣的放貸行為了嗎齁禁止這些融資公司來進行這樣的放貸行為是不是"},{"start":5849.928,"end":5873.898,"text":"我跟委員報告我不是這樣說基本上也就是說在目前來說社會上對於有些這些爭議也就是融資註定公司他給了一些給一些年輕的小白們就是很高的錢但是利率收得很高以致他們的無法負荷也就是說我們請公股銀行注意一下你在貸放的時候我相信貸放的時候都依照審核的規定來做五批原則也好啊相關的金融規範也好"},{"start":5874.958,"end":5888.861,"text":"那至於後面的資金用途也要去注意代後的管理而不希望我們帶出去的錢被他們拿去做這樣的一個用途並不是說不能做這樣的用途對,又善盡於這樣的社會責任嘛那個部長那但是類似這種無擔保的資金的取得我們看到有幾個現象雖然剛剛我們金管會跟財政部都特別強調說目前融資公司他們有自律規範但自律規範當中是不是能夠規範得到"},{"start":5904.684,"end":5904.724,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":5933.019,"end":5958.058,"text":"公股銀行未來在做這個放款的時候當然是要去按照金管法規之外還要根據工會裡面它有的一些規範因為現在金管會已經要求相關的要求租賃工會要訂訂定那個自律準則那它就要按照這樣準則在審核的時候要把它放進來一起看那當然代後管理也同樣要去看它的資金用途有沒有符合當時貸費的用途你現在都推給自律規範啦來那我問一下陳振祺那個陳振智"},{"start":5959.859,"end":5984.14,"text":"政治你剛剛說消保法第17條的時候這是屬於他律的條款嘛你有沒有想過消保法第17條的時候有沒有辦法把這些行為裡頭把它列舉還有包括剛剛許多多委員所說的他在消待這個放款行為當中巧立名目不論是手續費啦保管費啦拖吊費啦然後違約金啦等等啦各種巧立名目的部分有沒有辦法在他律的部分來進行約束有沒有可能"},{"start":5986.052,"end":6006.678,"text":"這個我們回去再仔細研議不過我初步的感覺是消費者保護法要必須要針對真正的買賣有消費者去買東西我們針對這個買賣契約來做規定第二點如果涉及假買賣徵貸款的話那就涉及有可能違法違法我們就會移送檢調來偵辦那我問一下那個處長這個行為有沒有辦法處理"},{"start":6011.682,"end":6034.13,"text":"主席署長是是跟委員報告齁其實剛剛次長有講到他如果是用假買賣那真的就是違法的行為就是必須要遵守對我希望把這些諸多的樣態齁一併處理啦如果要自律的部分如果規範不足他律要進行啦我們是把這些現象列舉出來齁讓你們現在剛好要修法的時候來進行嘛好不好可不可以"},{"start":6038.532,"end":6060.242,"text":"黃主委我看了中租抵合的財報我意外的發現中租在擔保銀行借貸的利息這個擔保的銀行借貸是1.63%最低的部分這無擔保的部分居然低於1.15%這很像這大概是台積電"},{"start":6061.343,"end":6061.503,"text":"主席"},{"start":6084.967,"end":6090.998,"text":"這什麼理由?幫我問一下部長你知道國公股銀行現在貸款的成本多少嗎?銀行局也來補充一下"},{"start":6092.574,"end":6119.391,"text":"中租控股居然可以拿到1.15%的利率主委、部長你也說一下嘛國共股、銀行到現在目前狀況怎麼樣嘛我想這個確實如委員所列這樣子是有一些不太一樣以清安貸款您剛剛提的也是1.775以清安來說已經是1.775清安貸還低然後他放出去的合法的利率是16%剛剛換算起來最高還可以到47%"},{"start":6121.372,"end":6146.116,"text":"這暴力欸這是暴力集團欸那這種情況底下為什麼他們會拿到這麼多的資金還有這麼多的利率我稍微查一下齁這又跟那個銀行局有關係銀行局待會再補充說明一下居然中租啊跟育農啊違反這麼多的社會責任的情況底下你知道嗎他們的公司治理評鑑啊還在前5%的業者欸還名列前茅欸那個局長"},{"start":6147.717,"end":6176.196,"text":"你要不要補充：梁局長、莊局長你知道部分他們利率大概多少然後他們為什麼能夠得到這麼高的治理評鑑報告委員因為對銀行而言他們覺得他從5P的原則來去審核的時候覺得這些租賃公司單純從5P來看的時候這些租賃公司算是尤其是三大我看你還是回去把我那資料列舉給我好了好不好"},{"start":6177.336,"end":6205.523,"text":"謝謝接下來那個主委我再跟您說明一下從這個財報的內容當中我還意外發現這個融資租用公司的利息在中國的收入居然高達台灣的25倍在中國高達258.85億在整個國營這一個販款逐漸下跌到25%的情況底下可是我們卻把這個融資公司的資金拼命地往中國跑"},{"start":6206.323,"end":6213.826,"text":"委員這個要看他的資金的來源,您的問題我們有瞭解過,就是這三家上市的主任公司,他在大陸的經營,從國內的,因為國內如果要投資到海外,其實都要透過投審會,一定金額是核准,一定金額是備查,"},{"start":6234.693,"end":6258.014,"text":"那基本上我們看到平均由國內資金挹注到大陸的金額比例不高很多都是從大陸當地的金融機構去借款的那這部分就跟台灣沒有什麼有一點類似沒有系統風險太大的問題但是估計起來你去查看看這個風險金額大概可以多少因為我從財報當中完全看不出來因為目前中國大陸當中目前的這個地產風暴的問題非常的嚴重是"},{"start":6260.536,"end":6265.099,"text":"我跟您報告其實臺灣的金融體系提供給這些租賃公司轉到大陸大概只有臺幣200億其實不多所以我跟您報告大部分是在當地就地"},{"start":6289.195,"end":6289.495,"text":"指揮官﹗"},{"start":6310.567,"end":6339.913,"text":"他那邊的費可能比較高我覺得這是看我們要去研究一下麻煩你研究一下我最後跟你講一下因為同樣是以列管你的列管的部分的底下的代辦行為是禁止的對於銀行的部分是禁止的可是上市上櫃之間底下也是您列管的部分的融資公司能有代管能有代辦的業者的行為實在是令人非常誇張連機車就可以代到500萬這個部分也請你注意一下好不好"},{"start":6340.56,"end":6349.505,"text":"我們已經注意到要注意long to value不能夠只是用應收貸款收買的方式去處理這部分會納入好那就麻煩主委費心了謝謝主委謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":6368.139,"end":6369.281,"text":"主席黃主委"},{"start":6377.517,"end":6399.236,"text":"好,那個,諸位,剛才我們的主席也講了,就是你的任期即將屆滿但是呢,在我們的金管會事上還有很多的相關重要的法令其實或者一些制度都還沒有正式的上路剛才您提到的,就是有關於我們的一些法案"},{"start":6399.756,"end":6400.377,"text":"在6月上路,雖然這個時間是一個新舊政府的交接,"},{"start":6421.238,"end":6436.347,"text":"未來我們這些社群平台上面的這些詐騙的實名制那目前所能夠掌握到的是什麼樣的進度?Google已經有了Google今年年初已經有了"},{"start":6444.534,"end":6463.505,"text":"Google已經採取實名,可是Google現在的還是非常非常多啊,還是非常多。其實我知道即便到今年為止,很多的名人或者一些企業的老闆也深受其害。所以現在你確定的只有Google跟Meta。"},{"start":6464.287,"end":6486.554,"text":"對,而且我跟您報告,打詐專法應該也會盡量在這個會期送到大院來,我的了解。本來是在幾月?這個不是我決定,但是我知道流程上是希望盡快回應大家的期待。對,因為我們上次去經營管會的時候特別有談到打詐專法的部分嘛,所以如果在這個會期是在6月底前可以進來嗎?"},{"start":6487.95,"end":6507.551,"text":"報告員,我沒有這個層級去回答,就是行政院要跟我們...另外,其實我想這一次我們的金管會的新任主委彭金龍,我知道,其實我認識他也很早,那時候他其實就是在當年的財政部,然後也有在金管會,那他是保險為主,你覺得"},{"start":6509.232,"end":6523.079,"text":"未來我們的保險業我認為今天找澎金融事實上是針對我們未來保險業會面對包含國際的會計準則我們要接軌其實會對我們的業者有非常非常大的衝擊"},{"start":6524.139,"end":6547.215,"text":"所以我覺得對主委來說另外一方面要恭喜你的至少你可以全身而退在你的這個任內沒有什麼重大的金融風暴事件可是接下來就是有關於我們的金融我們的保險他馬上就要面對國際會計準則你覺得新任的主委能不能面應對這樣的一個新的情勢"},{"start":6549.847,"end":6573.687,"text":"其實跟您報告接軌不是這一兩年從更早2018、19就開始談那我其實這幾年我的原則考慮國情循序漸進差異管理誘因機制跟定情檢討已經讓現在的業者有三階段逐步降低他的壓力那當然新的主委一定對這方面有新的想法或是有些需要去調整我想我們都尊重"},{"start":6575.196,"end":6575.616,"text":"財政部經濟部次長"},{"start":6590.093,"end":6618.231,"text":"主委部長還有次長今天我們的專案報告針對融資公司的亂象但是事實上呢隨著整個的這種情勢的這個變化那麼融資公司除了它一個傳統的這個融資之外什麼像車貸啊等等之外其實呢現在新型的這種其實它做的就是過去我們所認知是貸款的業務的型態是越來越多"},{"start":6618.931,"end":6621.293,"text":"那我在這邊要特別提到就是BNPL因為現在我知道金管會那時候還請三大這些租賃公司來喝茶希望能夠針對融資公司的亂象能夠做一些管控可是事實上"},{"start":6641.306,"end":6668.423,"text":"我們大概租賃公司可能來得最多的就是有最多的亂象、糾紛或者民意代表接到最多的陳情應該都是像個人的車就是車貸的部分或者一些法人融資事實上BNPL在三大租賃公司的業務量其實是不多的那反而是現在有很多並不是租賃公司他同樣的外面所有的人都可以做BNPL"},{"start":6669.524,"end":6696.159,"text":"現在問題是你比如說你融資公司因為他上市貴你還可以透過這個那個證交所來去對他做一些管理可是現在有這麼多的業者有的甚至比如說我開補習班我現在就在做我是電商我就在做而且電商互相還要搶生意因為你在這家電商去買的話你沒有做BMPL那你可能你的競爭力就不夠那所以"},{"start":6698.5,"end":6717.693,"text":"這個影響所及就是本里的機構公司已經早就不限於我們所理解的註定公司了然後很多的業者都可以做但是我們卻沒有法可以管所以我想請問一下在這個BMPL的部分"},{"start":6718.653,"end":6748.053,"text":"是不是我們現在的監管太落後還是呢這些的手法太前進所以這個部分我們有沒有辦法去做一個管理或者牽制說實在我們三大的助力工大家對他們有很多的質疑可是他們上市櫃公司還可以是有管道可以去做限制的那所以在這邊呢其實我不曉得我們下一頁有嗎因為我有注意到對不起往前面"},{"start":6750.735,"end":6763.587,"text":"中央銀行曾經示警就是BNPL可能成為卡債2.0對於很多年輕朋友他們可能不知道當年的卡債風波是什麼樣的狀況那時候很多銀行業者都知道當時就發行現金卡造成很多個人的債務"},{"start":6773.176,"end":6796.368,"text":"在台高築甚至都影響他的一生可能他好幾未來的十年他都是在怎麼樣去協調卡在去過日子我們做民意代表我們也常常做這個協調非常痛苦可是現在我們好不容易卡在當年的卡在風波已經把它渡過了現在我們眼看著另外一個卡在風波"},{"start":6797.489,"end":6810.666,"text":"就是當年像當年的卡在風波是一樣的所以這部分我們到底有沒有任何的監管的方式有沒有任何的解決方式我想請部長跟主委跟次長來說明一下"},{"start":6815.796,"end":6833.575,"text":"報告委員,依目前的法律規定公司的管理上他有資本充實原則不得超過他的禁止的40%那如果說他今天去做這個BNPL裡面的借貸超過他公司禁止40%他是違法的,這個部分我們就可以來調查和移送"},{"start":6834.4,"end":6834.42,"text":"是﹗"},{"start":6863.537,"end":6878.685,"text":"現在我們做的不是只有三大我們銀行局找過一些外商的BMPL公司瞭解他的model但是發覺比較重要的是這些三大主任公司下面的一些子孫公司做的事情所以我們從這方面重要性原則下手去管理"},{"start":6879.147,"end":6901.662,"text":"所以你現在還是只能從比較大的去著手對不對我們資源的配置上先以最有效率的方式大型公司他確實三大猴子我剛才講了其實這三大助力BMP其實在他的業務量真的不大的但是現在有很多新興的報告委員車袋有喔車袋有三大猴子講的其實有一家就是在做車袋的東西"},{"start":6902.711,"end":6905.872,"text":"我跟您報告我們銀行局找過一家外商他做PNPL最多5000塊"},{"start":6930.063,"end":6930.203,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":6945.02,"end":6966.901,"text":"金管會本來就要有優化意識任何事情都要從小處著眼去了解有沒有問題我沒有說不會有風險但是我覺得我們在處理上要漸進式的我們要從重要性原則上抓最大可能發生的部分先去處理用領頭羊的方式要主任公會通過準則至於說BMP要的部分我們也會循序去處理"},{"start":6968.12,"end":6981.256,"text":"我認為啊其實不只是說沒有三大租賃公司當然這個因為他還有其他的包含他這裡面違約金太高他的利息其實都已經超過民法按照什麼違約金啊違約利息"},{"start":6982.731,"end":7009.971,"text":"重點是BNPL我覺得現在這個形態真的比以前的現金卡更可怕他完全沒有任何的真性可言嘛對不對那你只要你去買東西你就是可以hold付款那麼我們擔心的是未來年輕人我們都希望他們能夠提早去存第一桶金結果我們是在這樣的一個放任狀況之下讓他去存了第一桶的債務而且可能影響他未來5年或10年的生活"},{"start":7012.153,"end":7014.194,"text":"所以我建議因為今天是沒有中央銀行來我建議我們相關的這些財經主管"},{"start":7030.845,"end":7032.125,"text":"道遠我必須要說明我只是回答您的問題我並沒有說央行的意見我們不重視"},{"start":7055.333,"end":7059.635,"text":"大委員,我的任期到5月19號結束之前我都會全力以赴,謝謝。好,謝謝王煌威委員的質詢,接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":7084.486,"end":7112.961,"text":"請監管會黃主委還有經濟部有請黃主委、陳政次、陳次長是主委好次長我想我在立法院的第一次質詢就質詢了山稻猴子就質詢了融資公司就質詢了今天這樣的亂象只是越來越明顯好經濟部我想問一下監管會一直認為融資公司不是他的業務是不是你的業務"},{"start":7115.325,"end":7118.548,"text":"你只管消費者保護所以融資公司他所融資的這些相關的業務是歸誰管?不歸你管?"},{"start":7128.803,"end":7149.568,"text":"報告委員我們現在講融資就我的了解他是一種借貸行為所以經濟部主管公司法嘛一般公司都是你管是所以這些融資公司他在業務範圍裡面就寫融資對吧他通常目前我們沒有融資公司這個類別所以部長"},{"start":7150.97,"end":7151.15,"text":"可以這樣說嗎兩位"},{"start":7178.683,"end":7199.684,"text":"的確這個議題是一直沒有得到就是我們延宕了20年的融資公司法沒有人管也沒有人要管那剛剛主委我知道你的困難因為你只管上市櫃公司所以這三家你可以管得到所以我在第一次質詢後你告訴我你要找他們喝咖啡你也找了他們喝咖啡對吧"},{"start":7200.525,"end":7228.677,"text":"黃主委您第一次執行我記得很清楚你說至少你要給我最低限度要開始做一些事是的所以這是我很遺憾這20年我想立法院很多立法委員也都提過所以今天的問題是融資租賃公司為什麼業務會成長到現在我想原因我們大家都很清楚第一個就是某些程度銀行貸款不是那麼容易取得尤其是新創甚至是小額所以才會有這麼多的融資公司不斷地竄起"},{"start":7229.898,"end":7241.514,"text":"二、這些大公司尤其是三家上市櫃公司他都是用租賃的方式來做相關的融資但是更多的不肖業者他除了"},{"start":7242.523,"end":7268.145,"text":"BMPL先買後付之外其實現在最嚴重的就是這些大公司也搞這些所謂的超貸機車超貸、假租賃徵信貸、假商品徵信貸所以現在的問題就是大公司、小公司都做一樣的事情這才是我們今天社會亂象的來源也就是說曾經有個社工講得很清楚他說以前都是欠銀行錢來協商"},{"start":7270.94,"end":7295.825,"text":"109年以後全部都是機車貸、汽車貸、手機都可以貸商品更不要講這些新型態的負債現在幾十萬一個破機車可以借到幾十萬甚至中古車可以借到上百萬這已經是不值錢的東西它用假租賃徵信貸的方式造成了今天很多的山盜猴子的被害人"},{"start":7296.525,"end":7305.631,"text":"所以經濟部次長雖然你應該至少我們希望520你還能留任所以經濟部的態度是什麼你們希望立專法"},{"start":7306.823,"end":7307.884,"text":"政府的立場支不支持立專法?"},{"start":7331.204,"end":7340.225,"text":"因為金管會只能管上市櫃,大的公司他可以管,小的公司管不了。第二個,小的公司經濟部也不管,現在就叫做沒人管的三不管地帶。"},{"start":7341.212,"end":7348.86,"text":"主委雖然你要卸任我想問你你願不願意支持立專法?專法的法案我們已經寫好了我們也希望"},{"start":7362.654,"end":7379.234,"text":"同樣的不管主任你再不在任我想這個都要成為將來尤其在本屆的立法院我相信會是一個重中之重的法案我們也希望行政部門應該提出你們的對岸尤其是經濟部管不了儘管會不想管的東西我們希望有人可以站出來管"},{"start":7379.975,"end":7397.897,"text":"第二個部分現在的問題在於說剛剛講到三大家三大家有6700億的業務幾乎是業務但是我上次也質詢過他將近湊起來有100億的貸帳雖然不單單都是這些所謂的小額信貸但是他有這麼多的貸帳表示他還是很賺錢"},{"start":7399.238,"end":7424.54,"text":"重點是在於接下來現在很多的問題是地下錢莊改以租賃公司為名開始做合法的地下錢莊讓租賃公司成為有牌的地下錢莊還可以去執行包括暴力討債然後甚至到法院可以做相關的強制執行那最嚴重的是我希望的是"},{"start":7425.501,"end":7446.498,"text":"我們目前為止公股行庫到底有多少家在中國成立融資公司?主委這個我們說是我們可以有一個金融機構轉投資大概十幾家時間暫停十幾家對十幾家對臺企銀第一金跟華南金、核庫金都有在大陸成立融資公司對嗎?時間暫停應該都局長你要不要來說明一下要請公股銀行的"},{"start":7452.246,"end":7463.635,"text":"公股銀行的董事長剛剛是臺企銀臺企銀第一金、華南金跟河南金來,請三位被點名到了公股銀行的這個董事長上台備選"},{"start":7477.25,"end":7499.79,"text":"各位董事長我們在馬政府時代因為跟兩岸簽有金融的MOU所以我們的公務航空庫都有在中國大陸設立所謂的融資租賃公司是嗎?都有有賺錢嗎?都有賺錢現在還在做嗎?還在做那目前為止好像中國大陸2023年狀況不太好是嗎?"},{"start":7501.277,"end":7529.799,"text":"但是我知道的是第一金第一金的一營租賃公司一年的成長率還是超過3%是嗎?董事長第一金確實董事長時間暫停喔報告委員那目前呢事實上我們的整個租賃公司的曝險也是放在整個AI82控管之中所以其實在中國大陸我們還是按照當地的法規有成立租賃公司幾位董事長"},{"start":7530.64,"end":7549.563,"text":"我們現在中國大陸他其實租賃融資業有一個專業的辦法也就是金融租賃公司管理辦法還有融資租賃公司監理監督管理戰型辦法他其實是由中央來監管的那在至少目前為止台灣"},{"start":7554.94,"end":7575.539,"text":"在韓國有金融監督院、新加坡金融管理局、印尼金融服務管理局、中國市銀保監會、柬埔寨市國家銀行也就是說在這些國家目前為止包括德國、日本都是由中央金融監理機關來做的所以黃主委我在這邊說的是"},{"start":7577.28,"end":7600.587,"text":"雖然你要卸任,但是我要說,全世界各地都由中央主管機關來做監管相關的融資業務,我想台灣也不可以例外。所以各位你們能不能給金管會一個建議說,在台灣的融資公司是不是也應該像在中國大陸這樣,它至少有一個監管機制,目前為止。"},{"start":7601.909,"end":7629.62,"text":"至少你們在大陸正常做生意可以正常賺到錢也不會有這些問題希望是啦好不好這是我希望說既然他山之石可以攻錯我們希望全世界都在做的事台灣不能獨露而且我們自己也在做同樣的事我們公營、航庫都在做一樣的事但是我們自己放下了這些管理的權限我覺得非常可惜最後就是"},{"start":7631.327,"end":7658.841,"text":"現在租賃業他們有幾個問題第一個就是他們也想要好好的受信但是他們取不太到聯徵中心的資料第二個是他們也沒有互相的信任保險的機構所以他們也是很高的曝險另外就是主管機關對他們也沒有支持也沒有輔導所以正常想要好好做租賃業的又不行回到問題就回到經濟部了"},{"start":7660.498,"end":7687.453,"text":"市長我們的公司法公司的資金是不可以待遇股東或者是任何人的對吧是所以他們這些融資公司又可以登記這個業務又可以低於他的所謂資本額的多少他就可以融資40%禁止40%對禁止40%所以他們才會發明了一個叫做假信貸假商品交易徵信貸假租賃徵信貸"},{"start":7690.114,"end":7707.87,"text":"因為有這個限制也就是說我們的管理上面的確是讓公司或者是這些企業他本來就是做融資的可是他用這個來規避相關的法規這也是經濟部一直知道但是又沒辦法管理的是嗎"},{"start":7709.557,"end":7728.036,"text":"我們如果發現的話是屬於違法行為的話當然你送過多少案子我們送過很多協處的案子通常都是用租賃所以送過多少案子一百多件一百多件多久收一百多件一年收一百多件我們協處的案子一年大概一百多件"},{"start":7728.516,"end":7757.62,"text":"一年一百多件都送了,有判刑嗎?不是,一百多件是我們協處的,不是送檢調的。不是送檢調,所以次長你說他有違法,然後你說那哪?報告委員,我剛指的跟回應委員的問題裡面涉及到假租賃,真借貸,這個是屬於違法行為。但是如果是因為借貸產生的這個借貸爭議、消費爭議,那我們介入協處。協處,所以你沒有移送過任何一件?"},{"start":7758.835,"end":7784.656,"text":"這個我們會後去查證一下再回覆委員所以還是回到我的嘛就是如果你管不了你也管不到你也沒辦法管就麻煩訂專法請經濟部我們今天有個臨時提案等一下要請莊委來採視主要就是希望行政單位正視這個問題能夠訂出行政院版本的融資主令專法謝謝好 謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢接著我們請賴會委員委員質詢"},{"start":7795.096,"end":7803.628,"text":"謝謝主席我們請財政部部長還有經濟部次長請莊部長陳次長金管會主委、法務部副司長法務部委員好是"},{"start":7812.21,"end":7835.552,"text":"部長我想今天針對的這個專題報告我們共同的來討論租賃公司是不是只有VMPL的一個問題其實問題相當的多也相當的嚴重那至於融資公司在各地的研製力都很高這個是大家知道的我以中租抵合就是今年初的法說會上面的一個簡報來講"},{"start":7837.193,"end":7865.789,"text":"中租在臺灣的一個研制力它高達2.3%相較之下我們國內的銀行在12月底的預換款比例僅有0.1到這個0.1左右那重要的市場不管是在這個中國還是在東協裡頭研制力更高達快要到4%所以在這裡請教次長就是說這個研制力代表的是什麼意思"},{"start":7868.294,"end":7880.498,"text":"延遲率應該,如我的理解是指的是這個借期沒有辦法還款的這種狀況,那麼就表示它風險是比較高一點。風險是比較高的,那沒有還的話,次長會怎麼樣來處理呢?"},{"start":7883.318,"end":7911.657,"text":"我們在協處過程中就是消費者去貸款之後他有時候覺得這個希望能夠展期我們會協助他跟銀行或者這個租賃公司來協商看是不是能夠展期他來展言這個就是清場的那個時間那接著我要請問我們金管會主委如果就是說我們知道租賃業者他會透過展言清場的這種方式來美化他的財務"},{"start":7912.938,"end":7922.349,"text":"那金管會有沒有掌握這樣的一個資訊呢?對於這樣的一個不良資產還有不正常的一個換款,你們有沒有什麼樣的一個方式呢?"},{"start":7923.803,"end":7945.345,"text":"目前我們的了解跟委員我想尤其是臺灣部分應該是大陸跟臺灣應該是差不多但是因為這裡面不是只是除了看這個資產品只要看他的利差有的人的模式是他利差如果大到足以cover這些研製放緩可能打消的話他可能覺得還是一個可行的商業模式"},{"start":7945.965,"end":7974.399,"text":"各位我想就是說如果像我們國內的銀行可以不可以這樣做呢?如果他的一個展言他的清場的方式他還不了的時候怎麼辦呢?因為有逐條逐條的去那個檢視他的一個那個有給委員報告銀行是非常嚴謹的預期放款、催收款、代帳處理辦法那個程序沒有錯我們當然知道銀行是非常的嚴謹那相對的你們針對的主任公司有沒有這麼嚴謹啊?"},{"start":7976.26,"end":7994.797,"text":"主任公司目前沒有對他這個受信的細節部分去做規範因為基本上他沒有吸收社會大眾資金銀行會那麼嚴謹是因為他吸收社會大眾資金主任公司沒有那個就是收到了那個我們社會大眾的一個資金嗎主任公司的錢是來自於"},{"start":7996.072,"end":7998.653,"text":"市長,整個中租抵合在中國有多少的交易,你們有辦法查嗎?"},{"start":8026.038,"end":8055.005,"text":"市長報告委員這個部分我們沒有辦法查沒有辦法查嗎好這個沒有辦法查的時候我們會不會就是說我們有沒有辦法就是說在這個村保基金還可以來救銀行他所有花生的一個這個特別的一個狀況那如果像住院公司他手花生的這一些金融的狀況沒有辦法查也沒有辦法去就是去救他的時候那該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":8057.529,"end":8066.674,"text":"報告委員經濟部的立場是保護消費者我們不是要保護租賃公司所以如果消費者在那租賃公司跟消費者有沒有做成一個連結呢"},{"start":8068.194,"end":8094.941,"text":"我們如果他們之間有爭議經濟部立場是保護消費者我們法律上給我們的職權跟指定的業務是保護消費者那至於租賃公司會造成系統性的風險的話就要看租賃公司資金來源會不會造成系統性如果是租賃公司自己很有錢他倒閉了那是租賃公司個別公司問題但是我剛剛有聽到委員所講如果他的錢是來自於大眾資金那我想金管會來管理"},{"start":8095.583,"end":8119.9,"text":"是,好,那我再請金管會那我想這個次長講得非常清楚就是說在下一頁我們看到了就是說主任公司他在有沒有換高利貸有沒有超過22倍有沒有違反土建融的一個限制有沒有經過第三地的一個洗錢把我們的錢進到中國去"},{"start":8121.881,"end":8142.472,"text":"報告委員如果是金融金管會主管的金融機構或是金控他轉投資的部分這部分我們都可以透過母公司的管理去管"},{"start":8144.147,"end":8160.497,"text":"但是如果不是透過金融機構轉投只是一般民間你剛提到的那一家公司我們沒有辦法直接去管但是因為它是發生在中國大陸只要不會在系統風險傳染到台灣基本上對台灣的金融體系是安全的"},{"start":8165.407,"end":8190.755,"text":"可是跟委員報告我的資料不見得正確我剛剛報告過從公股銀行過去的剛剛局長說大概差不多200億左右其他就是在大陸就地貸款的不是不是絕對不是這樣子公股銀行我想在這個那個我想由財政部部長來回答這個話在本席在上一次的時候已經非常清楚的問過你了就是說所有從我們八大公股銀行"},{"start":8192.135,"end":8216.72,"text":"這個主任公司從八大公股銀行裡頭你已經就是借貸就是你帳面上查得到的就是已經一千三百多億了那這個剛才主委又講了他說如果查得到的其實只有兩百億這個為什麼這個數據上會有這樣子的一個落差呢顯然就是說銀行他沒有辦法足比的去檢查"},{"start":8217.72,"end":8246.169,"text":"到底你你晃了的錢到底他的用途在哪裡那該怎麼辦呢跟委員報告也就是說我們八家公股行庫帶放給融資註定公司的總金額目前來說是1359億但是您剛剛提的200億是指說在大陸地區的但是主委剛剛有說大陸地區他其實有很多是在大陸地區自己去帶放在跟台灣這邊我們公股行庫帶放其實是是不同的來源"},{"start":8248.237,"end":8270.873,"text":"所以我想這個繞來繞去啦大家其實都已經知道問題的一個嚴重性只是就是沒有辦法就是很清楚的去講說這個就是大家共同的一個責任那為什麼我們一定要去正視這個問題他顯然是一個很大的一個困境很大的一個金融的危機呈現在我們的社會上那這個"},{"start":8271.933,"end":8293.895,"text":"三大業者的一個貸款戶已經變成了真性的一個死角那要怎麼辦呢甚至有很多主任公司要求建商你來借錢的時候你還要採購我老闆私人手開設的一個產品這個產品是什麼是保健的一個食品他強迫客戶就是說"},{"start":8294.616,"end":8294.916,"text":"大陸的事情"},{"start":8310.292,"end":8331.004,"text":"就是說在這樣子的一個就是強迫客戶採購就是老闆的一個私人的一個產品就是說我這個老闆我自己推出了一些就是我的保健食品的話那這樣子有沒有涉及就是掏空這個對公司的一個掏空有沒有涉及到一個背信跟圖令啊"},{"start":8332.285,"end":8336.527,"text":"那這個部分要按照那個具體的個案的事實還有相關的證據來做判斷當然我知道你會這樣回答我這個已經就是說他就是真實的要求就是你要借貸的這一個公司必須要在互貸買我的這個生技產品了是"},{"start":8361.055,"end":8377.433,"text":"真實的真實的這個個案太多了個案太多了就是說我們知道就是這個甚至就是在中國也發生了很多類似的這樣的一個那個案件就是你借錢你還要綁著就是要買我的保健品"},{"start":8379.361,"end":8400.861,"text":"所以在下一頁我想中珠迪和他跨足了生意的保健就是重案家這個大家都是非常清楚了甚至他在我們國內有名的這個經濟雜誌裡頭他還去做了很多創造了很多的一個故事讓大家把他這一個公司看了就像一個成功的一個勝利主"},{"start":8402.303,"end":8424.521,"text":"這個我覺得我們是不是有法可管還是無法可管這個是我們大家必須要就是很嚴肅的來考慮這一個問題大家這樣子左躲右閃的不是辦法我們不能當這一個案子發生了這麼大的一個社會危機的時候大家還是束手無策啊"},{"start":8425.762,"end":8450.639,"text":"謝謝我想就是說業者無法無天誰要來管這個顯然就是我們經濟部也列了一個臺北市主任公會訂了一個自立的規範可是這個五條的一個規範真的能自立嗎顯然好像是非常的一個空洞非常的一個空洞端端的幾行怎麼樣去執行我想這個都是"},{"start":8452.2,"end":8477.954,"text":"這是一個交代交代給委員可是如果說委員可以這樣子照單前收的話這個我們也是愧則就是我們不管是區域還是部分區的那個委員這樣子的一個社會責任你自立的規範沒有禁止就是要換款的這些孩子這些孩子就是說他在出社會的時候當他一台摩托車他可以借到30萬的時候他就是這樣子"},{"start":8479.255,"end":8508.294,"text":"毫無就是一個社會經驗他就是變成一個就是就承擔了這麼多的一個負債這個是我們大家必須要就是非常嚴肅的來看待這個事情自立規範沒有重點年輕人繼續受害違反也不處罰這種東西有自立嗎顯然是毫無自立所以在這裡也是要跟各位再提醒那本席要求就是金款會在一個業內跟業者完全"},{"start":8508.954,"end":8536.495,"text":"致力規範並且實施那金管會在致力規範實施以前應該要要求業者下架還有就是要揭露他的利率的一個廣告跟數位部討論強制的一個下架金管會應該重新審查業者他的研製力的計算的方式跟數據確認是不是涉及他有沒有美化他的財報拜託金管會在一個頁內提出書面的報告謝謝拜託主委"},{"start":8538.837,"end":8539.377,"text":"有請有請黃主委"},{"start":8566.836,"end":8595.698,"text":"主委好主委好不好意思剛喝水有喝過了嗎可以謝謝不好意思耽誤您時間沒有沒有不要不好意思也辛苦了那這個報告是大概晚了兩個禮拜因為上次要來報告的時候遇到大地震結果沒想到這個今天再來報告的時候也遇到人事的地震那主委也辛苦了可是報告委員我們有增加內容我們在第7月有更新內容不是照上禮拜兩個禮拜前的再給委員的好"},{"start":8596.775,"end":8624.136,"text":"這個請教一下主委就是說這個大家都很關心這件事情那其實我們也常常在這個廣告上面這個網路的廣告上面也看到說有很多這個釣魚式的廣告關於這個融資公司的一些或是說這個先買後付的一些這些釣魚式的廣告他常常在講就是說你信用瑕疵也可以帶啦然後呢這個一般商品也可以帶啦手機也可以帶啦然後而且呢這個是低利貸款"},{"start":8625.037,"end":8650.406,"text":"然後也講到說這個貸款的這個條件呢條件不拘誰來誰借然後這個保證過借這個超高額度然後呢這個而且還有這個最新型的這個手機APP的貸款按照手機的這個指示呢就可以申辦那甚至也不知道說這個實際上利率是多少所以呢讓你貸款的時候是非常方便但是呢這個是處處的都是陷阱"},{"start":8651.446,"end":8674.155,"text":"所以也產生了很多弊端至少有第一個連針的視角第二個超高的利率違約金跟慈嚴的循環利息一起來算然後可貸的乘數也沒有限制甚至以數倍計然後萬物皆可貸所以造成這些弊端請問一下雖然說4月初開始"},{"start":8676.036,"end":8678.977,"text":"委員這樣子您剛剛垂詢的有一些部分其實都已經納入了我是不是可以請局長給您比較完整的說明"},{"start":8702.079,"end":8716.329,"text":"報告委員針對剛剛委員所提的尤其是針對弊端二的這個部分超高利率違約金跟延遲利息的併給的部分我們這邊在那個主任公會的自律規範裡面已經說這兩個不能並行然後再來這個"},{"start":8719.771,"end":8736.566,"text":"陳述無限制甚至已被記這個部分這涉及到廣告不實會有誤導所以這個部分的話在自律規範裡面也要求主任公司對於他這個行銷單位因為有些行銷的廣告其實是他的代辦公司或者是他業務合作那這誰來管這廣告誰來管"},{"start":8738.328,"end":8738.348,"text":"這有罰則嗎?"},{"start":8755.839,"end":8771.268,"text":"自律規範這邊的罰則就是他們公會裡面他們對會員如果違反自律規範會有什麼樣的罰則所以這邊到底用什麼樣的處罰方式看起來沒有處罰啦我大概有看了一下他們的這個自律的規範沒有處罰好第一個沒有處罰第二個"},{"start":8773.809,"end":8785.323,"text":"這有溯及計劃嗎?還是從4月初開始之後,他們自律規範訂了之後才開始?那過去呢?過去也有這些超高利率啊,還有葛泰城市無限制啊,那過去的呢?過去的有辦法處理嗎?"},{"start":8789.462,"end":8789.762,"text":"有講跟沒講一樣,你們要去審視啊!"},{"start":8817.883,"end":8839.661,"text":"這過去的這個規定如果都已經違法違法相關的規定那怎麼可以說一刀切4月4號之後的就按照這個自律規範4月3號之前的呢那我們還是按照舊的它違法就違法啦這個你們要去審視你們要請這個諸董公司去審視過去的契約如果有違法這個相關的規定的話那這個契約就應該是作廢了吧沒有效了吧"},{"start":8841.436,"end":8868.691,"text":"對,委員我剛剛所說的就是主任公司他不會因為說他之前的契約已經生效他們以後對於消費者的這個部分的話會遵守最新的自律規範對,那我是說之前簽的約勒?對,還是他還是會按照最新的自律規範所以意思是說可以溯及既往就對了?是好,那你剛才提到那個四個弊端第一個,廉政死角你沒有回答我是現在廉政還是死角嗎?"},{"start":8871.346,"end":8874.653,"text":"就是竹林公司跟我們的這個廉政中心到底有沒有連線啊?"},{"start":8875.731,"end":8904.197,"text":"報告委員現在主任公司有一部分他如果當他需要消費者的信用報告因為這些消費者希望有取得信用報告所以當他如果跟連珍拿消費者同意之下他取得信用報告的時候他們這邊他們會把他對消費者的那個授信他會報到連珍這邊那所以今天是說主任公司他主動去"},{"start":8905.345,"end":8929.221,"text":"去跟這個比如說這個要借貸的人去跟他要資料他才去對所以這個就是沒有限制嘛對那因為這個已經取得消費者的同意所以他可以報資料那我認為啦我一般跟這個銀行借款啊他都會去聯徵嘛就是說看我個人的這個借貸紀錄是怎麼樣才決定說到底要不要借和借多少嘛那為什麼租賃公司不要融資公司不用勒"},{"start":8930.281,"end":8956.698,"text":"這個我的意思是說這個為什麼沒有強制性勒報告委員那個銀行因為他的風險控管非常的嚴格所以對這就是問題所在嗎我們對於租賃公司的這個控管風險沒有這麼嚴格啊對報告委員因為租賃公司其實我們跟他談的過程他們有跟我們反應就是說因為他們相對於其他的銀行就是他的速度很快他可能當天就沒有不是齁"},{"start":8957.798,"end":8973.231,"text":"這個問題就在於說通常是譬如說信用可能不是很好的人他銀行借不到錢了才到這個租賃公司去借吧那所以說如果再去連任的話那大概就過不了吧應該是這個原因吧但是我們是認為說當然對有些人來講他有這個需求"},{"start":8974.139,"end":8989.827,"text":"但是如果說能夠跟廉政中心配合的話那至少租賃公司他在借貸的時候他有一個比例嘛或者說我大概可以借多少不是說這個沒有限制那甚至呢借更多給他那形成一種惡性的循環啊"},{"start":8990.447,"end":9008.946,"text":"所以我才覺得說是不是應該就是說你來借貸的話你每個租賃公司你就必須要跟年政中心來做一個這個審視就是說到底這個來借貸的人那到底信用有沒有問題啊啊不然這個就變成是空的嘛就變成說我的信用不好啊但是呢我銀行借不到反正我來租賃公司借嘛"},{"start":9010.578,"end":9034.6,"text":"報告委員其實我非常贊同您的想法可是因為廉政中心他是一個會員制他所有的會員其實都是以銀行為主所以這就是你們要去處理的問題嘛如果你覺得我的想法也不錯那也可以說讓這個這個這個現象就是說這個三道猴子的現象這個一字惡性循環那你們就應該去做啊"},{"start":9035.168,"end":9064.185,"text":"我跟您報告其實我們有處理過去前年開始因為連珍是會員制他只有銀行才能加入那有一種方式現在就是像那種做線上P2P的公司我們開第二資料庫他用很快的方式由個人去申請轉借給轉交給他很快的方式取得你的credit report然後交給這個公司也是一種方式不直接取得但是由個人去取得"},{"start":9064.885,"end":9077.674,"text":"這個你們去設計嘛就是說我是希望說這一個連徵這個有關信用記錄這方面你們也要做處理啊就是說你不能跟我講說那會員不是會員銀行才是會員才可以加入啊"},{"start":9079.467,"end":9095.297,"text":"我的想法就是說你要去看說那個人借貸信錄那個信用到底是怎麼樣那如果不好的話你不應該一直在借他啊那當然說租賃公司要賺錢那可是對於那個人來講他可能這個沒有任何的限制的情況之下可能越借越多啊越欠越多啊"},{"start":9097.777,"end":9126.123,"text":"委員我想您垂訊的地方我們會去努力跟公會銀行公會跟那個廉政中心那邊去這個你們要去處理我覺得你們要去處理好不好就有關這個信用廉政這部分可不可以去處理其實也要看租用公司自己本身的想法我想我們會去你們看他想法一定是說不用的啊維持現狀是最好了啊但我們就是因為有問題今天才請你們來做報告啊對不對"},{"start":9127.724,"end":9128.684,"text":"8大關國行庫對融資公司的貸款有1300多億"},{"start":9147.791,"end":9149.852,"text":"請問融資公司跟公股銀行融資,再把錢借貸出去,中間有沒有利差?"},{"start":9173.437,"end":9176.399,"text":"銀行法有相關的這個利率上面的規定嗎?"},{"start":9198.013,"end":9221.686,"text":"這個我要請教就是說,如果是跟這個主領公司跟這個公股銀行借錢,我認為啦,還是要有一個限制啦,還是要有一個限制啦。我想那個公股部分我們尊重財政部的決定,但是整體金融機構部分我們會再強化,謝謝。那另外齁,這個有沒有催收的準則出來?"},{"start":9224.085,"end":9238.238,"text":"主領公司的催修準則有出來嗎?因為現在很多主領公司都把他的債權轉給黑道的也有啊,或是其他的來催修也有啊,這個催修準則有沒有出來?"},{"start":9239.042,"end":9241.163,"text":"我們對金融機構的催收有一個定型化的契約嗎?"},{"start":9255.978,"end":9278.172,"text":"應該是說我們對他們的管理就是說他這邊的吹收他要符合一切法令的規定當然要符合那我意思就是說在這次的自律規範裡面有沒有這個吹收的準則出來啦因為有嗎我們原則性的規定有在這個自律規範裡面這個講了很多都是這個租賃公司的自律啦那我們希望的是他律"},{"start":9278.852,"end":9281.475,"text":"謝謝李昆成委的質詢因為李燕秀委員另有要功我們待會等李燕秀委員質詢再行休息10分鐘我們現在請李燕秀委員質詢"},{"start":9306.956,"end":9309.318,"text":"主委好,我想我先舉一個個案"},{"start":9321.728,"end":9339.976,"text":"從前面八位委員質詢提了很多個案你就知道這些租賃業者手法我實在是非常佩服不只三道猴子包括在美容院的這些平常去按摩做臉的媽媽都被騙我從網路上有一個朋友傳給我一個訊息就是說他上美容院都"},{"start":9343.718,"end":9356.622,"text":"因為上美容院最後變成被這個租賃業者簽了一筆股的債朋友的媽媽去美容院被推銷按摩然後要送產品那所以就簽了一個契約那簽了契約之後他跟他講說每個月只要花4000塊來付費那就可以把這些保養品全部都帶回家"},{"start":9364.924,"end":9384.251,"text":"所以回家之後帶回那一整套的保養品之後家人聽一聽覺得怪怪的想拿契約來看但是沒有契約最後才回到這個美容中心去要求看真正的合約的內容然後要求說是不是可以跟租賃公司只付款甚至是保養品要退貨"},{"start":9385.291,"end":9412.121,"text":"但是租賃業者拒絕退貨有幾個主要原因包括就是說他企業上面已經寫了這個保安品拆開了或已經簽了約就不可要求退款退貨等等所以這些租賃業者的手法非常多我相信從今天早上到目前為止許多委員都提出了很多的個案他們手法這個無孔不入所以我還是要再一次強調就是說我覺得"},{"start":9413.001,"end":9440.8,"text":"目前消保處針對於6項產業有要求做定型化契約包括瘦身美容短期補習班跟網際網路教學服務健身中心、健身教練等這6種行業我們有要求要做一些定型化的契約跟規範但是我剛才強調了這些租賃業者的手法無所不在那其他的行業呢"},{"start":9442.284,"end":9449.471,"text":"我們如何去規範它有沒有辦法處長還是主委因為我不知道主管機關是誰是"},{"start":9453.061,"end":9470.971,"text":"報導委員就是有關於我們現在目前是針對我們這6項就是現在目前消費爭議比較多的行業來處理那依照我們超寶法17條我們就是選由主管機關主管機關就是中央主管機關來選定比較有爭議的行業所以的確委員剛剛講的說那除了這6個以外怎麼辦那這也是這一次就是說在討論其實主要"},{"start":9473.252,"end":9484.316,"text":"我要跟委員報告一下就是說定型化企業其實是在規範企業經營者跟消費者那租賃租賃 處長你只要告訴我什麼時候因為我今天時間有限我很想問到答案因為這些租賃業者消費者會覺得被詐騙這也是詐騙當中其中一環對很多人來說所以"},{"start":9494.261,"end":9523.427,"text":"到底什麼時候其他的行業也會規範進來只要告訴我答案就好了我跟委員報告一下本處現在是在整理外國立法例因為現在有關於剛剛有很多委員在討論要不要一個主管機關以及要不要訂專法那剛剛大概都有回應就是有一些就是金管會跟經濟部都有做一些回應那我這個部分我們現在目前處裡面是在整理外國立法例那希望我們把這個整理整理一下包括有沒有辦法多久好多久我們應該近期就可以把它整理出來如果整理出來會跟委員報告"},{"start":9526.489,"end":9545.341,"text":"黃主委我希望一個月之內包括消保處可以把所有行業定型化的契約哪些應該載明哪些不應該載明哪些不應該放在裡面把它寫清楚我覺得主委現在很多就是因為我們現在討論是融資公司缺乏監理的問題"},{"start":9555.027,"end":9579.958,"text":"但是現在所有的租賃業者他們用的手法無所不在比如說我從網路上隨便舉一個例子他都寫說汽車市價兩倍以上他可以貸款的額度可以到達汽車或機車市價兩倍以上他都可以借而且可以有薪資什麼相關的證明也可以弄得到但是事實上這些就是從事無單保平的這個借貸的行為"},{"start":9582.159,"end":9583.919,"text":"我沒有辦法從這一頁去判斷他有沒有標示公司的名稱"},{"start":9611.031,"end":9630.434,"text":"所以主委我覺得因為現在從事販款業務包括無擔保品的就只有我們金融單位可以做到底租賃業者可不可以做這件事情現在很多租賃業者都遊走在法規很模糊的地方去做這些業務"},{"start":9631.895,"end":9655.429,"text":"所以包括定型化契約也寫得不清楚所以政府應該要做的事情沒有做好包括主管機關到底是誰這些被欺騙的消費者他覺得被詐騙了但是我們政府居然沒有一個任何兩位是一個主管機關我個人認為這件事情是非常離譜的"},{"start":9657.364,"end":9664.712,"text":"所以到底今天執行到現在已經接近中午我們未來主管機關有可能是誰?明確了嗎?"},{"start":9666.089,"end":9689.835,"text":"委員跟您報告您剛垂詢的其實融資公司現在的法據是公司法15條只是他用另外一種方式因收賬款收買方式擴大他的業務並不是沒有法據那只是在行為面需要被監管剛才處長也跟您報告過其實行政院有討論過請消保處去研究相關各國法制那法制研究完之後就可以做一個討論"},{"start":9692.148,"end":9705.228,"text":"他的行為面沒有被監管到這個也是一個很離譜不管哪一個單位行為面沒有人監管這也是滿離譜的帶放的行為這個部分就跟消費者相關的這個部分"},{"start":9706.041,"end":9722.553,"text":"所以我其實問到今天其實這個背後可以放款這麼多的業務我擔心的啦就是說我不知道我不知道公股銀行借款給這些豬立業者到底有多少的金額到底我們擔心的是會不會造成像20年前喬治馬利現金卡的事件"},{"start":9724.394,"end":9741.476,"text":"‍﹗"},{"start":9741.656,"end":9759.987,"text":"所以我們期待其實監管單位也好或者是我們相關單位其實組織機關應該要夠清楚而且這是行為面超越法令的部分我覺得我們應該要有更明確的要求那不只這六大行業我們應該高度的監管其他單位我們也應該要有處長你請問我今天有另外一個主要的議題我想要請問主委"},{"start":9766.451,"end":9794.968,"text":"主委我們現在針對上市商櫃公司永續發展我們在前年有定一個規範就是針對27條之一上市商櫃公司可以經由捐助、贊助、投資益助資源給文化藝術活動加入我們所謂的ESG永續發展的這個納入ESG裡面做加分的評鑑有這件事情嗎?對不對?有,文化藝術應該是前年加進去的好,主委我今天關注的"},{"start":9796.489,"end":9810.628,"text":"其實我認為這件事情是值得肯定的但是教育跟文化是不可分的所以包括這一次4月3號大地震之後全台灣其實很多公立學校的校舍"},{"start":9811.309,"end":9814.151,"text":"臺北市公立學校有1530棟校舍,有超過50年的將近有三分之一。接下來20年之內將近有1300棟校舍會超過50年。"},{"start":9832.402,"end":9851.662,"text":"這是臺北市的狀況更不要說全國的狀況但是我們都知道教育部也好地方政府也好其實能夠有錢撥資源去修善校舍或重建校舍的金額真的非常少我們常在說苦不能苦了孩子我們希望給孩子一個更好的教育空間"},{"start":9852.483,"end":9853.324,"text":"我認為您的詢詢可以交代這個內容我們去研究"},{"start":9877.382,"end":9895.291,"text":"主委你個人覺得這個方向可不可行?你的看法呢?社會責任當然也包含企業的回饋當然也包含在其中一環所以我非常期待主委你能支持這件事情"},{"start":9896.257,"end":9896.978,"text":"好,謝謝主委正面的回應,我也希望"},{"start":9916.323,"end":9916.944,"text":"謝謝李燕秀委員的諮詢我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":9962.625,"end":9963.405,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10017.134,"end":10036.525,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10061.95,"end":10077.462,"text":"字幕由 Amara.org 社群組成"},{"start":10117.125,"end":10127.351,"text":"財政部委員會財政部委員會財政部委員會財政部委員會"},{"start":10559.653,"end":10559.913,"text":"我們請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":10599.402,"end":10614.454,"text":"主席我請經管會主委財政部長我們今天來的公營航庫是不是所有公股航庫嗎公股航庫"},{"start":10616.806,"end":10617.206,"text":"我所瞭解到的"},{"start":10643.964,"end":10652.53,"text":"這三大租賃公司．中租、迪和、合潤跟裕融．他們不但公司都已經股票上市"},{"start":10654.11,"end":10682.452,"text":"而且他們貸款給我們社會大眾的其實並不是來自他們的資金他們是大量的大金額的跟我們銀行體系借了我大概估計各方面的資料加起來大概五千億啦他向我們的銀行體系借了五千億低利貸款然後放高利貸給我們全體需要的民眾"},{"start":10684.028,"end":10696.489,"text":"那這債這才會引起我們這一次我們會議要討論的主題啦那這三大租賃公司啊我姑且稱他為鼠條三兄弟啦吼"},{"start":10700.086,"end":10701.587,"text":"是金融的代表"},{"start":10728.069,"end":10743.011,"text":"他要做很多很多的模範給全國的銀行來看那部長、總部長剛好這八大公營、航庫、董事長、總經理都是你任命的"},{"start":10744.042,"end":10766.734,"text":"那我們國家對待這八大公營行庫董事長、總經理我們待他們不薄他們每年薪資待遇都很高因為我們尊重他們的專業我們希望他們能夠全心全力幫我們公營行庫做得好這個待遇我們都沒話講但是他們做錯事情"},{"start":10768.195,"end":10790.809,"text":"該打屁股的時候部長你可別心軟可別手軟我要請問這八大公營行庫的就是說就我剛提的啊薯條山兄弟向銀行借了五千億那我請問你們八大公營行庫我請八位董事長你們站起來一下好嗎我請問你們公營行庫"},{"start":10799.155,"end":10802.879,"text":"我請問你們有貸款給這三大租賃公司的請舉手通通有喔天吶"},{"start":10828.137,"end":10848.553,"text":"各位董事長我請問你們銀行貸款給借款方最重要這3C信用抵押品還款來源不是嗎信用抵押品就不難啦我就請問你啊"},{"start":10850.738,"end":10868.122,"text":"這三大主力鼠條三兄弟他們是放高利貸的耶結果你借款給他們他們的還款來源是來自於高利貸你們知道嗎我請問你們知道嗎知道了請舉手喔你們不知道所以你們也是被鼠條三兄弟騙了"},{"start":10877.54,"end":10900.011,"text":"你們跟我們千千萬萬的受害民眾一樣你們也被騙是不是?你們把來自於社會大眾辛苦的存款、血汗錢借貸給這些不良的租賃公司讓他去放高利貸我上回質詢部長主委的時候我就說"},{"start":10902.059,"end":10909.625,"text":"我說這三大租賃公司叫做有牌的地下錢莊天吶這麼優質的九大公營行庫們你們竟然還默默的私下的把錢借給他們這叫助紂為虐不是嗎"},{"start":10929.261,"end":10942.887,"text":"他們的還款來源是來自借款人他們的血汗他們變相向我們這些借款的民眾吸血以高利貸來還給你們第二點我現在請問啊你們九位董事長你們有錢借給這三大租賃公司那表示你們認定了一個合理的消費貸款不是嗎"},{"start":10957.642,"end":10966.284,"text":"那你們為什麼不直接把錢借給需要的民眾呢為什麼對一般民眾這麼坑對這三家註定公司就來個疑問三不知剛剛你偷沒記錄你偷偷說你不知道他是放高利貸我不相信你們縱容他們嘛不是嗎"},{"start":10989.857,"end":11002.747,"text":"為什麼不把資金直接放盤給需要的民眾?為什麼?帶頭的台銀金庫、台灣銀行董事長、呂董事長請你回答為什麼有需要資金的民眾這麼多"},{"start":11013.066,"end":11026.353,"text":"尤其青年朋友們為什麼我們九大公營行庫你不把資金直接融資給需要的民眾們而去借款給這三大租賃公司放高利貸為什麼啦"},{"start":11029.372,"end":11053.388,"text":"為什麼李董事長委員好我想跟委員報告這一個所有的租賃公司他也扮演一定的金融中介的角色事實上就我們所知這裡面的資金95%都不是大家所顧慮的那一些所謂BNPL的放款"},{"start":11054.808,"end":11079.119,"text":"我一路上放這麼多很快速這怎麼都不是呢你明知道嘛就是說這個BMP大概佔全體的5%那大多數還是在所謂的機器設備或者是車輛之類的車載就佔了一半之多你如果看這句絕大多數你們今天我們談說這個"},{"start":11082.515,"end":11100.36,"text":"民間的金融公司其實最主要我們談這三大啦這三大就佔了90%操帶這麼大的比例金額你們竟然不曉得那我說你有錢借他們怎麼不借給民眾我自己答覆我這一點嘛借給民眾有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":11102.591,"end":11124.787,"text":"我想這個每個銀行他的業務有他的取向那以銀行而言能夠做的能量就是那至於這個車輛的部分呢我實在不想回答你這個金額啦為什麼因為時間有限你把數字先看清楚了再說我還說台銀是模範生"},{"start":11126.77,"end":11129.611,"text":"你平時在講整個市場規模啊對啊對啊臺銀啊大概是這拜九大公營行戶之士你們通通貸款給他們啊"},{"start":11148.176,"end":11169.063,"text":"這個八大公股銀行大概是一千三百出頭億那台銀本身大概一百七八十億所以並非而裡面大概只有五個percent是可能有涉及BMPL對啦我知道你帶的不多啦一百四十億對你們而言對啦還是還是很多啊一輸了就丟啦不不不還是很多沒錯"},{"start":11170.077,"end":11192.363,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":11192.503,"end":11213.177,"text":"那個我們隔空這樣談都很清楚了啦,面對面我希望你給我透明的答覆,希望我們公營行庫能夠善待需要貸款的民眾們,直接貸款給他們,不需要透過你剛剛講的,這數條三兄弟你說是金融的仲介"},{"start":11214.798,"end":11232.993,"text":"貸款就貸款,直接大家吃來吃往就好,不需要Blogger啦,Blogger還是吸血的,縱容他們存在嘛,不是這樣嗎?來董事長,我真的,你請回。那理解,那我們再跟你報告,謝謝。那部長、主委、那個董事長。"},{"start":11235.125,"end":11262.432,"text":"你們知不知道這三大有多惡劣他們的手法有多惡劣你知道嗎他們現在的貸款除了說汽車貸款以外他們另外其他的融資他們就假借欸商品假借根本不存在的比方說我舉例有的餐廳要跟他們融資他們啊不能直接貸款這個餐廳給這家公司他就說你啊"},{"start":11263.234,"end":11282.619,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":11283.359,"end":11300.481,"text":"然後再來第二層皮是什麼就來啦53萬先扣掉那是利息再來80萬的保證金再來10萬的手續費欸 河流根本假的沒一個蹤影這家需要貸款的餐廳"},{"start":11302.472,"end":11328.934,"text":"就先被扒了三次皮啦他本身就是那條和牛被剝了三次皮這個假的那這樣的貸款呢存在存在多少你們去查總共我剛剛跟你們講的借改這些法人融資的通通以這樣子的方式所以主席我最後再提一句說"},{"start":11330.472,"end":11341.48,"text":"部長、金管委員你們九位董事長你們要注意這樣子的租賃公司遏制的他們規避了三大法規公私法"},{"start":11342.523,"end":11362.45,"text":"因為不能借錢給其他個人規避了民法歷時超過16%應該契約無效規避了刑法的重力罪規避了這三大法規重大的法律結果金管會跟"},{"start":11365.048,"end":11367.069,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員的質詢接著我們請嚴寬恆委員質詢"},{"start":11407.57,"end":11415.194,"text":"主席、各位列席、官員主席,我想依序邀請金管會黃主委、財政部莊部長、經濟部陳次長委員好"},{"start":11423.878,"end":11444.683,"text":"主委好部長還有次長大家好那我想最近因為中東戰事那導致股票波動還有黃金價格更是飆漲誇張那根據台灣銀行的黃金存摺售價從今年的第一個交易日是2069元台幣一錢"},{"start":11447.364,"end":11469.751,"text":"那來到上週五12日的高點是1,2502元成長超過20%那過去包括影響外資投資人蔡蘭竹現在直接影響到要結婚的新人因為大家在傳統禮俗上面都要購買黃金增加喜氣那還有各個產業都需要這些貴重金屬那"},{"start":11471.416,"end":11479.73,"text":"這個黃金價格雖然是屬於央行的管理範疇但是影響都是聯動的所以請教部長、主委那還有次長知不知道昨天銀樓的報價一錢多少錢"},{"start":11483.755,"end":11485.736,"text":"財政部長翠雲、經濟部長翠雲、經濟部長翠雲、經濟部長翠雲、經濟部長翠雲、"},{"start":11513.394,"end":11534.069,"text":"部長請回座那主委這個三大金融公司就是中租、育農跟和潤那透過業務通路對外宣布說在4月1日全部調降汽機車的可貸成數那其中機車可貸成可貸金額從30萬降到10萬"},{"start":11536.691,"end":11560.246,"text":"本席認為說大量的放貸給邊緣戶造成債台高築那更多的社會安全問題都有相關我想請教主委已經兩個禮拜多了過去兩個禮拜多你有掌握這個情況嗎那有沒有辦法預估說今年這個融資貸款的總件數會有多少還有增加的貸款金額會有多少"},{"start":11560.906,"end":11576.921,"text":"各位委員報告謝謝您指導我們在剛才有報告中4月3號他們公會又通過了內部的這個自律的規範那其中也包括內部的融資標準這些所以預計可能在金額上跟件數上都會下降我們會再密切注意這些事情"},{"start":11578.288,"end":11581.671,"text":"市長,因為金管會沒有辦法管理國內的融資公司,沒有法令"},{"start":11598.368,"end":11624.44,"text":"那這些地下經濟本席要向經濟部要到資料就是說根據我所上的資料國內公司名稱有財務公司融資之榮的近3年這公司的登記的一個加數3年成長了22家代表說這個產業在台灣是很賺錢的那請教次長經濟部核准設立的標準是什麼有沒有積極的管制公司成立的數量"},{"start":11625.686,"end":11650.092,"text":"報告委員我們依照公司法來來受理公司登記那原則上是不會有條件不會有條件他只要符合公司法的登記的要求比方說資本充實原則那他實際上有相關的這個董事等等的組成只要合乎公司法規定符合法令就可以申請但是他們所做的這些業務就是剛剛像剛剛委員講的說"},{"start":11652.393,"end":11674.59,"text":"第一例跟我們的這個行庫銀行借錢然後來高利的放給這些社會邊緣戶還有這些有需要的年輕人然後高額高利的收取這些這些代這個高利貸被人家認為是高利貸那這個我們也沒有就只要他符合公司公司法的申請就可以來申辦"},{"start":11676.069,"end":11701.68,"text":"第一個現在沒有融資公司這個類別所以他登記公司的時候沒有融資公司行政院在97年的1月30號就通過了融資公司的草案但在該年的2月3號進付一睹之後就沒有下文那所以我是想要問說不管是經濟部還是金管會是不是消極的沒有去針對目前我們所"},{"start":11703.737,"end":11709.368,"text":"我們在討論的這個問題就是融資公司法當初97年就已經驚呼一睹為什麼沒有積極的作為來成立這個專法"},{"start":11715.549,"end":11742.964,"text":"現在行政院有指示包括金管會、財政部、經濟部等我們有在研議這個未來要怎麼樣來處理這件事情因為融資這是一個坊間的說辭基本上它的本質是一個借貸行為只要它沒有用到公眾的資金的話金管會目前是認為它是保護全國社會大眾的資產所以它沒有用到大眾資金它個人的錢在我們目前法律上並沒有辦法去介入個人的借貸行為"},{"start":11743.744,"end":11760.316,"text":"市長我想請金管會黃主委是主委那我接著剛剛就是說銀行有銀行法證券業有證券交易法那保險業有這個保險法規範那我們剛剛提到了"},{"start":11761.243,"end":11774.518,"text":"融資公司什麼時候要立法納管那我們剛剛提到97年的時候金富一睹沒有下文那在你的任命在520之前會不會有行政院的版本"},{"start":11775.461,"end":11800.08,"text":"出來,會不會?這個部分目前還在大家還有討論啦那包括剛才消保處的中處長也有提到他有在研究各國的法制那我想這部分因為現在融資公司大家務役的一些地方包括利率還有重複收費有些其實可以現在的法規或消保法就是可以去管的所以說主委就是說弊端已經這麼多而且"},{"start":11801.14,"end":11828.985,"text":"社會關注那造成的我們這樣高額的跟民眾收取這些利率那從非常低的這個利率從這個各個行戶裡面跟銀行拿錢做這種無本的生意沒錢的生意那變成說是不是會讓人家以為說政府默許政府默許然後政府要成為地下金融的幫助犯難道你們不會怕有這樣子的一個說法嗎"},{"start":11829.545,"end":11850.724,"text":"委員您的關切非常重要我們也非常在乎在這之中間他的消費者或是貸款人的權益他會充分告知以及他有沒有對不當加計不當的費用跟利率我們都關心所以現在台灣主委台灣的經濟主要是依靠中小企業但是因為很多中小企業他因為"},{"start":11851.505,"end":11870.584,"text":"公司組織不夠健全財務不夠完整所以沒有辦法從銀行或者從金融機構取得其營運所需要的資金全部資金那所以他反而向地下金融來藉取所以就會造成我們現在的地下金融日益猖獗因為地下金融"},{"start":11871.897,"end":11890.633,"text":"免去了層層的這種徵信照會啊然後對於這些借款業者提供免保證啊免保證人啊用票有票就可以借啊還有迅速撥款等等所以暴力討債的事件層出不窮所以社會嚴重的社會問題我們也常常都耳聞"},{"start":11891.514,"end":11913.514,"text":"那融資公司法如果我們趕快提出草案融資公司法可以將金融活動全部導入正軌有效的讓目前高利貸及地下金融的問題獲得法律的規範所以這個應該要積極要盡速好不好因為我想討論都都已經討論得很全面了嘛對不對"},{"start":11915.061,"end":11915.522,"text":"還需要多少時間呢"},{"start":11928.669,"end":11943.944,"text":"任期內報言這個我現在是是待命要離開了所以應該是交接過程中不適合做重大的決策了是沒有錯齁但是因為我們應該要有首有尾嘛所以還是要做只要在任期內還是要做尤其這個"},{"start":11945.947,"end":11959.545,"text":"這個事件跟是受到所有人的關注包括召委非常關心對不對那我們所有委員還有提出的這些看法還有建議請我們金融會要積極的來推動那另外"},{"start":11960.691,"end":11978.029,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":11978.462,"end":11983.644,"text":"政府不能默許這種行為持續發生約定利率是超過週年百分之十六者超過部分之約定無效這是民法規定"},{"start":12004.741,"end":12009.741,"text":"就像偶爾舉個例那現在機車貸款他可以貸款10萬"},{"start":12011.192,"end":12011.492,"text":"那你這樣子跟"},{"start":12036.848,"end":12062.611,"text":"讓這些對這些年輕人來講一點話是也不算小數目啦而你來跟他這些融資公司他會告訴你說因為約定利率16%我只要在16%之內我都是合法的所以這就變成說是政府默許這些融資公司拿低利的這個借貸來來做一個高利貸的一個收入啦所以我們已經"},{"start":12064.728,"end":12087.112,"text":"難道這16%不可以調降嗎?不可以修改嗎?可以嗎?報告委員這個民法最高是16不是說他只能收16他可以依照他的信用風險去charge那只有當他延續的時候可能會收到16所以這個還要看個案跟您報告那我們不能夠把這個調整嗎?不能下降嗎?民法的是民法不是金管會定的民法是法務部"},{"start":12088.564,"end":12104.611,"text":"我想齁這個不要再我應該講這個這個大家關注這些事情啦齁那它已經冶然發生了很多的社會事件所以我們要不可以讓這樣子一個呃用這種好像用"},{"start":12107.807,"end":12127.066,"text":"來吸取這些信用小白這些年輕人他們不利貸款在銀行可能徵信的過程當中沒有辦法順利的取得這些他們需要的貸款而轉向跟這些融資公司變成向地下錢莊借錢所以這個不只是我們不可以同意我們主管機關要積極的來做一個"},{"start":12130.109,"end":12139.515,"text":"有效有積極的一個管理委員我在最後30天會繼續努力您放心謝謝加油啦拜託啦謝謝謝謝煙空委員的質詢接著我們請陳培宇委員質詢好謝謝主席那我們有請金管會主委還有保險局局長謝謝有請黃主委你好"},{"start":12159.144,"end":12187.251,"text":"好稍等一下謝謝好那想要跟兩位繼續討論關於這個運動員保險的問題喔那我每次到這個委員會來都是要問運動員保險的事情那前一陣子大概在三個禮拜前喔有一個新聞不知道兩位有沒有看到這個新聞這個新聞說呢在這個相關的會議上藍球亞洲盃資格賽還有藍鞋會員大會上呢有一個很重要的人他講了一段很奇怪的話不知道兩位有沒有注意到這個新聞他說呢"},{"start":12188.931,"end":12193.574,"text":"兩位覺得退佣這件事情在民間的版本或是在你們專業的版本怎麼看這個人相關的發言?"},{"start":12214.79,"end":12231.851,"text":"因為佣金是業務員因為招攬這個業務得到的報酬那當然會有一些民眾會跟業務員這個要求這個類似退佣這樣的情形但是這個是我們的法規所禁止的"},{"start":12232.372,"end":12233.053,"text":"這位藍鞋的監事主席並非跟保險無關"},{"start":12255.129,"end":12281.386,"text":"他的資料我們上網查了他其實是台灣某一家保險公司的協理也就是說他是專業從業人員所以如果按照您剛剛的說法與法規定禁止退休行為但是他卻在公開場合甚至這樣對球員對整個保險公司做出不實的指控甚至說出你們覺得你們明文規定禁止的事情請問兩位怎麼看這個事情"},{"start":12282.898,"end":12287.582,"text":"但其實我要談的是整個目前運動員保險單到底在目前的狀況是不是有退用的事情我覺得就是您剛剛說的你必須要去查"},{"start":12311.661,"end":12332.038,"text":"不然為什麼他會在現場做出這樣的言論跟指控我真心要說對保險公司尤其是這個案子保險公司跟對球員都非常的不公平在事後的很多球員回應上包含他們自己也說從來沒有這樣的事情他們不知道為什麼這個監事主席他要說出這樣的指控所以也要拜託你們要積極去查可以嗎"},{"start":12333.168,"end":12339.393,"text":"對保險人員他們疑似宣稱可以透過保險退用的說法到底相關的業務倫理這件事情我相信是不是可以再做更多很重要的宣示或相關的業務盤點"},{"start":12354.867,"end":12354.887,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":12374.583,"end":12400.656,"text":"因為推庸這件事情我們是在法令上明定是不可以的所以如果有查到的話其實我們會要求公司依法要處理那如果公司在管理上不當我們也會處分公司所以我們會去清查一下剛剛請教你們兩位的就拜託你們可以在一個月內完成有機會嗎因為現在大家都會說不確定520會不會在嘛但是還有一些時間所以我們就押一個月內完成可以嗎可以我局長還會在"},{"start":12407.581,"end":12426.776,"text":"在之前有一個記者會我相信你們其實也都有出席在這個蔡其昌委員、林益錦委員還有莊惠雄委員的這個運動員保險的公聽會上會中保險局也有出席那當天保險局的發言其實給了體育署很重要的指導我必須這麼說因為當天體育署的發言可以感受到體育署很多對於"},{"start":12427.637,"end":12439.714,"text":"保險這個議題的想法真的是有一點天馬行空我們辦公室當然自己積極都有在跟體育署討論包含他們當天說要把運發基金拿來當再保單位其實我相信就兩位的專業認知應該離保險實務非常遙遠對不對這種說法"},{"start":12444.872,"end":12450.256,"text":"那我最後想要拜託你們可不可以研議一件事情其實在現行的保險法167-1條的函式裡面可以接受保險代理人去進行海外保險商品的部分"},{"start":12473.152,"end":12494.745,"text":"但是目前沒有辦法在運動員保險商品裡面有沒有機會納入韓式跟討論讓我們的運動員選手有更多保險的選擇可不可以請你們在一個月內做出演繹跟給我們回覆這個部分我們研究一下再跟人們報告那我們就都開啟研究好嗎謝謝謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳培文的質詢接著我們是陳玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":12501.46,"end":12510.469,"text":"我們因為12點的關係我們就開放現場用餐我們就不休息了陳委員請主席好請主委黃主委謝謝有請黃主委"},{"start":12517.715,"end":12539.341,"text":"委員午安中午好我們今天問的這個融資公司融資公司長期以來在處於三不管的地帶那這個主任公會我想請問主任公會有訂一個BNPL先享受後付款我們在討論這個Buy Now Pay Later這個自律規範及對這個車輛貸款分期及債權讓以交易業務的自律規範那"},{"start":12546.044,"end":12572.619,"text":"這個後續是哪個單位要來負責監督管理呢?這個部分的這些規範包括今天金管會提供的報告金管會要負責所以你們以前這個所以這個等於是他們這個資歷規範提出了這個4月3號的網站實施的這些貸款、分期讓與這些規範或者是這個這個部分後面是由金管會來負責是嗎?是的,我們提出的報告我們負責"},{"start":12573.379,"end":12580.441,"text":"主要的公司是上市公司當然還有一些小的這種主要性原則先抓這個大的那後續也是由你們來這個那這個專題的這些規範這些公司都已經有同意簽署了是嗎"},{"start":12597.788,"end":12619.35,"text":"這應該都有簽過,都有通過,4月3號就通過了對,那後面都有嘛,那我想請問那現在融資公司大家擔心的是當然融資是一個當然是一個因為市場上有時候有一些單位或是法人也好或是個人也好在在跟這個銀行借貸方面可能遇到一些困難不容易那或者一些徵信上沒有那個那現在這種新的這種"},{"start":12621.111,"end":12641.721,"text":"這是方式這種借貸的方式造成了一些當然我覺得他也是有一些創新但是但是也造成了一些困擾尤其後續的包括在這個中間的利息的部分用什麼巧立名目、帳管費、兌保費、變相收利息那這個有符合這個這個符合有資訊揭露業者會自律嗎"},{"start":12643.363,"end":12668.677,"text":"這部分委員您講的非常重要這部分也是剛才也有委員垂詢我們會再進一步的要求他要把這些部分都介入或是要歸納成一個項目不可以巧立瞑目去收那這個部分因為這個你們剛已經提出要承擔所有金管會來負責這個融資這個公司的相關的這個業務的監管那是不是沒有我說今天的報告講的這些自立規範或是內控這些那後面那個融資"},{"start":12670.538,"end":12687.396,"text":"你現在意思是那下去融資公司的主管機關就是我們金管會啊?沒有我剛才講的是今天提的報告的內容只是報告的內容要求那些自律的部分啊那這個融資公司那要請問是要後續呢有沒有這個專法來送我們審議啊?"},{"start":12688.277,"end":12707.64,"text":"有跟委員報告其實剛才消保處中處長也報告過行政院當時開會有責成他們去研究各國的法據我想這部分加上召委今天召開這個會議未來會去做一些討論哪個單位呢下去是哪個單位會主管呢不是現在還沒有決定還沒有決定那經濟部今天有來嗎經濟部次長陳次長那這個部分後續是要由你們來主要來當主管單位嗎公司嘛"},{"start":12718.862,"end":12743.932,"text":"報委員融資這個行為我們現在行政院內部正在討論未來要第一個要先我們要納管的範圍有多大這個要政策確定是要行政院來確定確定之後再看管理的機關是誰要先檢視這個機關有多少政策工具那這個專法裡面要把這個政策工具給哪一個機關來管那目前來講我們行政部門還在彼此在討論還沒有討論就對了在討論中"},{"start":12745.913,"end":12771.638,"text":"在討論中但是還沒有初步討論說有哪個機關來作為這個他的這個主管單位就對了現在行政院的做法是先研讀各國的立法體力是我們從他山志士可以供錯法先了解國外怎麼做那麼我們後來這個金管會、經濟部、財政部我們幾個機關相關機關都會來一起來參與討論那有預計大概多久的時間這個相關的你們的行政院那邊的專法可以出來嗎"},{"start":12772.81,"end":12774.553,"text":"請哪個單位?哪個單位現在在籌你這個法案?"},{"start":12782.047,"end":12809.165,"text":"我們這個院的部分我們內部只能說儘快來作業所以你們能說儘快那你們還是不知道什麼時候目前沒有辦法那所以如果說這中間發生什麼問題現在只能靠著金管會的一些監理的這個機制但是這個後續其實比較嚴重上跟那個警政署也會有相關的關係因為後續包括這些債權的這些追索有時候涉及一些比較上法律上比較那個那希望這東西要儘快"},{"start":12810.126,"end":12815.073,"text":"政府都要喚新了,你們動作要加快。好,謝謝。那我想請問財政部,謝謝主委、謝謝市長。"},{"start":12824.622,"end":12847.649,"text":"委員長好,你知道有一個東西叫地域加級嗎?知道,就是針對你服務的地方,地理環境交通狀況,一些特殊的地方給一些相關的補助。在我們金門地區,比如說不管在公教人員的部分,公教人員都有一些離島加級、地域加級,這個實施很久了,或者是在國營事業也有相關的規定。"},{"start":12849.649,"end":12871.25,"text":"財政部這個轄下有這個台銀、土銀還有中華慶、兆豐銀行私家在金融社有分行那是不是在這個可以請求你在這個金門的這個在金門的分行部分針對這些飯工股的銀行的部分是不是對於那個第1家級也要有一個一致性的這個規範才不會說好像有點不平等這樣子"},{"start":12871.971,"end":12873.371,"text":"跟委員報告本國銀行在金門地區有7間分行但是我們公股、行庫就有5間那其中台灣銀行1間、土銀2間、兆豐1間還有台灣企銀1間總共有5家分行"},{"start":12890.457,"end":12915.642,"text":"現在有外島所謂的地域加急的部分臺營、土營跟兆豐都有不管他是台灣派去的或是金門當地的居民在我們這個分行做事都有地域加急但唯一就是台灣汽營的部分如果是本島派去那邊的話是有地域加急但是在金門本島的子弟們在他們分行是沒有在做地域加急的"},{"start":12915.902,"end":12916.062,"text":"請通股銀行"},{"start":12937.338,"end":12961.127,"text":"給予的部分那也他們有他們一定的一個程序啦那我想這個部分我們可以跟台企演講請他們去做這方面的研究看看好嗎那還有包括這個元大是元大永豐這民間的是不是也跟他們跟他們這樣督促一下這個因為民營的話我想財政部是沒有我知道你們沒有但是可以來幫忙督促一下沒有問題嗎好謝謝部長是是謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12967.245,"end":12974.411,"text":"主席各位出列席官員大家好主席先請一下莊部長我請莊部長"},{"start":12999.464,"end":13023.722,"text":"委員好其實在財經界整個國家的金融發展在金管會也好央行也好財政部也好這個大概就是財經三大巨頭都是非常重要的那過去大概8年的這個時間一路走來"},{"start":13025.066,"end":13037.495,"text":"那事實上金管會也扮演非常重要的角色你對著在這個一路走來這個整個銀行、證券、保險的發展你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告我想這個目的事業主管集團金管會其實在這個金融業不管證券還有保險或銀行等各方面都"},{"start":13050.751,"end":13054.975,"text":"金融的穩定很重要所以大致在整個目前台灣的發展金融圈裡面對於這整體的評價大概都是覺得可圈可點"},{"start":13078.305,"end":13079.446,"text":"一夜之秋"},{"start":13106.459,"end":13132.997,"text":"最近大家可以看得到整個荒腔走板的宮廷內鬥劇活生生的就在立法院上演我們看到最可惜的就是對財經界貢獻很多的我們突然發現為什麼台灣股市上幾點上兩萬點"},{"start":13136.539,"end":13147.769,"text":"所有的銀行界消息息的因為截至上一次的數據分析啊銀行金融界已經賺了大概七八千億"},{"start":13150.018,"end":13170.888,"text":"另外保險當然有點過去有點因為COVID-19的問題中央政策造成決策的錯誤沒有辦法不過也慢慢都穩定下來了銀行的預放現在也大概是歷史以來的新低這個其實這個整個三個財經首長貢獻都很大所以我們看到這個主委黃主委"},{"start":13179.332,"end":13206.593,"text":"居然沒有沒有請黃主委坐就好一路走來我們也是要一個心理的分享覺得就是他一路走來也無風雨也無情那這個情叫做無情的情啊你想想看一個執政黨的好的官員結果被自己執政黨的所有人幾個人群起攻擊"},{"start":13207.998,"end":13233.569,"text":"好造成中華民國失去了一個很好的金管會的主委這個實在是比八點檔宮廷俱還要令人嘆為觀止所以我是覺得莊部長你接下來因為520還沒到還沒有正式發布你也都要"},{"start":13234.548,"end":13235.968,"text":"財政收支劃分法．對地方的照顧．"},{"start":13254.905,"end":13273.679,"text":"趕緊想一個好的方式為民發聲畢竟我們在這邊開會第一個想的都是國家至上還有一個民眾第一這邊在後面我後面這個地方希望大家念之再之趕緊把財化法做好部長準備好了嗎"},{"start":13276.295,"end":13294.805,"text":"跟委員報告有關財化法這個修正的事情齁其實財政部一直都沒有停歇過那我們這部分有關對於各地方政府未來就是財化法怎麼去分配的部分也在請地方政府表達意見那各地方政府也把相關的意見來了但是有一些"},{"start":13295.605,"end":13311.172,"text":"有關分配的指標部分它的內容跟它的內涵到底指的是什麼我們會跟地方政府再進一步的釐清然後然後我們會適時的開會然後尋求最大一個共識那就在分配的部分必須要再看看要怎麼做然後求取共識"},{"start":13311.952,"end":13325.236,"text":"然後才能夠往前再走一步我想這個部分財政部一直都沒有停歇過是那雖然財化法沒有修正但是中央對地方的一個財源的挹注其實一直有增加在112年比105年已經增加了2000多億就中央挹注地方的財源"},{"start":13331.195,"end":13348.785,"text":"在113年比105年多增加2000多億所以地方整個財政來說目前也都在地方政府的努力跟中央一起的挹注之下其實地方的財政已經有非常大幅度的改進不過那個都是杯水車薪因為現在變六都了事實上"},{"start":13358.929,"end":13372.074,"text":"臺北縣升格成為新北市,當然希望它整個該給人民的福利或是一些社會福利的制度是可以大幅度的成長的,不然這個"},{"start":13373.94,"end":13401.249,"text":"臺北縣升格為新北市變成直轄市變成六都那又如何所以這方面多加油請問一下統籌稅款全部一年大概加起來有多少應該到幾千億吧應該今年是兩千四千沒有加裝補助款才有四千元有的再加上這幾年稅收都超徵四千元"},{"start":13402.888,"end":13403.528,"text":"請國庫署來做一個縣市的說明"},{"start":13435.659,"end":13451.916,"text":"新北市的部分目前中央統籌分配稅款是468億那以前台北縣的時候是大概補助多少因為接著本席就要"},{"start":13458.834,"end":13484.788,"text":"那個520快到了很多事情就應該如火如荼那如果整個閣員大概都大致抵定了以後很多法我們就開始要開始要來具體的審查相關的問題請你準備好數字準備好是謝謝委員一個比例就是動審之前事實上那時候是權力是很大幅度下放地方的"},{"start":13485.643,"end":13512.419,"text":"可是動審之後,中央把很多的權力都收回去了,這個必須要做一個調整。當時經審的時候,其實負債中央也承接了,一併承接了審的負債。好,謝謝。謝謝。那部長請回。那最後就是,麻煩請一下主席,請中環會主委。"},{"start":13518.67,"end":13546.606,"text":"委員好所以大概幾個字就是你辛苦了但是我覺得人生造化要是我是你我也覺得很委屈做了那麼多這個被自己執政黨裡面的第一線的或者是說有幾個人群起霸凌這個是我覺得是匪夷所思的事情"},{"start":13548.134,"end":13576.534,"text":"然後抓一個跟你不相干的事情有種就對著誰來啊怎麼會去影響講誰講東講西講那麼大啊如果這麼認真會講的話為什麼不想想過去的立法院歷任的院長副院長行政院長拜託啊哪一個人沒有請客吃飯過一個小小的事情可以無限上崗"},{"start":13577.762,"end":13600.34,"text":"所以我覺得對你一個就是感到不捨不過人生的機遇上還是有幾個字要送給你叫做海闊天空以你的能力以你的過去的這個成功的經驗要找你的人"},{"start":13600.99,"end":13612.194,"text":"您可以貢獻的這個地方啊還多得多啊在這裡就是最後啊祝福你謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝倫敏堂委員質詢接著請林楚瑩委員質詢呃謝謝主席主席呃有請黃天鹿黃主委莊志榮莊部長以及我們呃陳正琦陳政次"},{"start":13631.493,"end":13632.435,"text":"首先我要先請黃主委"},{"start":13646.581,"end":13667.83,"text":"主委您真的是辛苦了過去其實在上一屆的財政委員會當中其實我們共同一起解決了許多的問題我想其實面對這個金融監理不是一件容易的事情尤其是身為一個監理機關坦白講監理這件事情是顧人願的我自己過去在媒體的時候坦白說我們在媒體的時候是最"},{"start":13668.57,"end":13686.189,"text":"怕也最討厭NCC說實話就是這樣那麼所以說面對許多的風雨我想您心裡非常清楚但是其實您承擔下來了包括其實就在上一屆的會期的最後我們在講打詐的時候詐騙這件事情它其實根本沒有主管機關來統一來處理那麼當時我們就想到了如果說是這種不法"},{"start":13691.394,"end":13691.414,"text":"報告．"},{"start":13710.851,"end":13734.611,"text":"跨部會的合作這件事情其實是我非常有感的那您是真的非常勇於認識那麼因為我的時間有限我其實要切進我的主題就不讓您回答對那就是剛剛其實前面非常多財政委員會的委員們都詢問了就是有關於這一次同樣也慢慢的在累積起民怨的就是融資公司的事件"},{"start":13735.091,"end":13756.678,"text":"其實融資公司的事件大家都知道主管機關不是金管會但是因為他跟現在在場的包括公營銀行庫以及其他的民間銀行一樣他都跟這個金融所謂借貸當中是相關聯的所以很多事情就直接會問金管會那你要不要處理你要不要管那麼"},{"start":13758.243,"end":13778.491,"text":"主委我只問一個簡單的問題喔就是銀行的借貸他因為在金管會的高度監理之下他其實必須要遵守非常多的法尊、封控等等銀行各種的借貸不論是車貸、房貸他的利率最低跟最高的範圍大概是多少如果就您所了解"},{"start":13779.973,"end":13794.352,"text":"這要看他的這個貸款人的信用風險當然不可能到16了當然就是現在利率也很低啊也許1%怎麼樣這個我想我沒有實務上我不敢亂講在座都是金融界先進他講錯了不太好"},{"start":13794.753,"end":13811.212,"text":"好,但至少他不會高達到16%甚至是10左右大概就是已經多數這個他們能夠承擔的風險因為這要符合法規那您知道在融資公司當中雖然有民法規定的16%但是是不是真的都有用其他的方式"},{"start":13812.372,"end":13829.383,"text":"用乾坤大農藝的方法把這樣的利率墊高是不是有有有其他的名目比方說違約金那違約金部分我們這次就有處理好沒錯所以金管會其實注意到問題了那照理說這些融資公司應該主管機關就是財政經濟部了嘛對不對"},{"start":13830.703,"end":13833.704,"text":"剛剛我聽到前面的委員在詢答的時候是有特別提到行政院現在有注意到這個事情了"},{"start":13850.211,"end":13871.392,"text":"所以有一個所謂的跨部會之間的一個聯絡或平台了嗎?包括我知道過去大家剛剛前面也提到了聯徵中心的問題但是聯徵中心不是會員你不能查大家現在其實想講的就是他擔心的是一個潛藏在我們看不到的水面底下的金融危機它存在著"},{"start":13871.892,"end":13891.06,"text":"所以有沒有可能建立所謂的第二平台那這個第二平台它是公開的嗎那這個第二平台經濟部會來介入嗎因為它現在它就不是金管會高度監理的這些銀行因為銀行是有連徵中心那這個平台會建立嗎如果建立的話是經濟部來做協助嗎那這個資訊可以怎麼樣來統合出來因為我想強調的是"},{"start":13897.675,"end":13913.474,"text":"這些融資東西他還是找我們的民營的所謂不論是公股行庫或是民營行庫來做借貸那麼這些到底借貸當中因為我們都知道如果他今天信用擔保可行他擔保品足夠他就去找銀行了"},{"start":13914.155,"end":13914.355,"text":"來正次"},{"start":13942.825,"end":13968.942,"text":"是 報告委員 委員所問的正好就是我們覺得最重要的問題了目前來講的話借貸基本上是個民法上的借貸行為而且融資公司目前並沒有這個登記的業別他們不能登記為融資公司所以我們現在用公司名稱方式去把他撈出來可能涉及的公司他怎麼來處理這個民間的借貸行為我們還需要跨部會來討論在目前這個部分經濟部負責是有關消費者的保護這個部分"},{"start":13970.303,"end":13988.297,"text":"今晚會是負責金融體系的安全的部分那我們大家一起來想想看怎麼樣來找到政策工具來管理好我知道因為在520之前呢恐怕就像這個大家都都覺得說好像要等但是民眾的這個東西是等不了最後請部長在這裡是因為大家也都提到了那公股、行庫喔"},{"start":13989.178,"end":14010.287,"text":"不要最後背上了不必要的罵名包括這些融資公司如果他們真的有一些不法的行為或不法情勢希望能夠跟經濟部跟金管會多一點橫向的聯繫那這些就要把它列為重點項目的觀察的拒絕往來戶好嗎提醒的是不要讓供股行戶變成是好像第一線要出來承擔"},{"start":14011.488,"end":14012.228,"text":"何孟楷"},{"start":14040.326,"end":14059.839,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請金管會主委跟經濟部次長有請黃主委,有請陳次長主委、次長,我們到底有沒有了解說現在我們國內這所謂的免卡分期、無卡分期的這個狀況到底有多氾濫"},{"start":14063.448,"end":14084.501,"text":"我們報告中有提一些啦所以我們是抓大先抵重要性的這三家主任公司下面的BMP要業務去做調查但隨便一個Google剛剛本席隨便一個查詢隨便一個Google直接跳出來全都是廣告"},{"start":14085.772,"end":14111.739,"text":"5卡分期還有說這個最新手機現貨搶購中先搶先贏筆電相機家電包包通通不用等就是告訴你說你只要你想要來借都可以借的到免卡分期付款繳款容易快速審核個資不外流不想讓家人知道還可以保密甚至現貨提供"},{"start":14112.938,"end":14130.027,"text":"學生、上班族、軍人滿18歲都可以申辦先享受後付款那看起來這是一個非常嚴重的一個狀況那本席剛剛特別看了一下我們監管會跟我們經濟部的這個相關的一個"},{"start":14131.411,"end":14134.492,"text":"提供法律諮詢．然後促成個案和解"},{"start":14158.663,"end":14163.888,"text":"外委員目前經濟部所主管的法令裡面我們的政策工具主要就是消費者保護法那麼就是在定型化契約裡面來設計還有事後的消費者保護"},{"start":14183.894,"end":14199.571,"text":"是嗎?所以說相對來講說大家都沒有就是大家也不認為說這個是自己的主管機關所以說就大家就是互相所以今天才會不管是財政部也來、金管會也來、經濟部也來但是大家都覺得說這個有亂象、有問題可是沒有一個人主管是這樣嗎?"},{"start":14202.947,"end":14207.232,"text":"民間就已經有講了嘛金管會、經濟部互踢皮球民間融資成三不管地帶所以才要呼籲要訂定融資專法"},{"start":14221.889,"end":14225.192,"text":"就算這個報告兩個禮拜前跟今天金管會的報告是不一樣的"},{"start":14242.068,"end":14261.53,"text":"文字內容大同小異但重點是結論的部分還都是這樣子啊所以說本席現在只是想講是說到底現在我們看到我們融資公司缺乏監管的衍生問題這三不管地帶那主管機關沒有專法的部分我們到底有沒有想要痛力失痛的去做協助處理"},{"start":14263.496,"end":14281.773,"text":"報告員我的成...成績能夠跟您報告就是說如果是要...要不要訂專法因為這牽涉到跨部會可能要在行政院的成績去...好我這樣子問啦我這樣問啦因為大家可能也都是520的時候這個部會首長也換人嘛但是有人家講了人之...這個"},{"start":14283.806,"end":14312.291,"text":"人要離開啊其言也善啦所以呢如果說真的要訂立這所謂的融資專法的話認為是哪一個部會擔任主管機關會最合適總可以講了吧報告委員我想這個還是要由行政院來做決定是沒有錯啊但是行政院現在一定有問嘛就是想是說那到底哪一個部會當主管機關是財政部認為說業務相對比較適合是經濟部比較適合還是金管會比較適合"},{"start":14313.331,"end":14339.602,"text":"那總是有一個部會要當主管機關啊那我現在講啊你現在講你可能過去會覺得是說哎呦拜託不要再加重我的業務了但現在總是要離開了以專業判斷來講一下嘛如果說真的要融資專法的話到底應該哪一個部會要多比較多的權責那立法委員我們協作就是給予法定的修正專法的一個定例並且給你們政策工具讓你們真真正正可以來打老虎嘛"},{"start":14340.402,"end":14364.596,"text":"而不是像現在這樣子明明就看到亂象了明明就真的很多不管是什麼以前網路影片講三道猴子啦這些他們去借貸然後造成說一個家庭的問題其實每一個這種民間的融資都不是只是單一個問題是一個家庭的問題甚至是可能如果說我夫妻的話是兩個家庭的問題兩個家族的問題那本席現在只想問"},{"start":14366.842,"end":14367.382,"text":"請說明報告委員我想"},{"start":14387.185,"end":14413.676,"text":"我覺得還是要由行政院做一個最後的判斷因為現在跨部會而且您講的這堆東西從網路上的BMP到實體的部會所以之後行政院什麼時候他越來越危險所以大家就是互相推嘛所以今天就是看到三個部會首長互相推然後反正看行政院看是哪一個政委出來哪一個院長出來如果說院長哪一個政委他又覺得說現在新聞過了風頭過了民調比較低了不要碰"},{"start":14415.762,"end":14438.781,"text":"我這個又遙遙無期啊所以大家講的guards政府官員的guards還是說我們看到問題想要解決問題的能力或想要解決問題的決心看不出來是這樣嗎如果說還要鬼打牆的回答就不用回答了祝福主委一帆風順"},{"start":14440.39,"end":14440.49,"text":"請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":14463.131,"end":14470.416,"text":"麻煩有請財政部部長以及彰化銀行董事長林董事長林董事長委員好"},{"start":14491.827,"end":14498.225,"text":"兩位好延續上一期執行的重點財政收支判分法"},{"start":14499.709,"end":14525.028,"text":"針對垂直分配的問題也就是中央統籌分配款在分配的內容比例上面我們朝著不管是國民黨執政還是民進黨執政、在野黨都說要改民進黨上一次我們的準總統賴清德先生當任行政院院長的時候他也說要改"},{"start":14526.008,"end":14553.913,"text":"結果人聲大雨點小到現在還無動靜也正是因為這個樣子我在上一次的時候請部長針對各種不同版本試算的結果提報告給我提報告給我那我在前兩天啊看到了你們的報告啊你們的報告啊寫說中央政府債務負擔人數沉重"},{"start":14554.878,"end":14560.483,"text":"我看到這個結論我真的是非常的驚訝我為什麼說非常的驚訝我們往回看我們的即將卸任的總統蔡英文蔡總統說很少"},{"start":14569.505,"end":14596.224,"text":"看到有國家的財務結構竟然是這麼健康的當然這個是民主進步黨的執政總統做這樣的宣稱部長您作為政務官您之前也跟整個台灣社會說中央政府債務狀況事實上是非常好的奇怪了怎麼討論到"},{"start":14598.311,"end":14611.645,"text":"有關於財政收支劃分的時候這個馬上180度急轉彎中央政府的債務負擔人數沉重所以我的問題很簡單部長我們中央政府的財務狀況我們的債務到底是好還是不好"},{"start":14618.154,"end":14645.186,"text":"跟委員報告中央政府目前他的債務的債務比來說跟世界其他國家來說我們其實是低的因為我們目前實際的債務比是20所以是好的嗎對但是我們仍然認為國家我們在處理我們這個財政的時候比如說我們的稅率如果比預算執行的好而且稅出能夠而且有盈餘的話我們都會優先去還債我先請教一下部長"},{"start":14647.927,"end":14663.903,"text":"按照您當財政部部長的規劃我們的債務負擔大概要降到百分比多少以下才有條件來處理有關於統籌分配管的分配依照您的標準就好了"},{"start":14665.744,"end":14669.905,"text":"所以你的意思是說因為我們有前瞻基礎建設所以有關於財政收支劃分的部分沒有辦法處理嗎?那是因為怎麼樣你就講清楚嘛所以我就問你嘛"},{"start":14688.653,"end":14702.799,"text":"你前後態度不一致嘛當人家質疑中央政府債務高的時候就出面講我們的債務狀況非常好啊結果現在要討論到統籌分配、管流分配的時候財務狀況又變得不好啦"},{"start":14704.266,"end":14727.218,"text":"是什麼?看什麼事情?方往哪邊吹?看什麼事情轉來轉去轉來轉去喔?那我也不跟你爭持按照你的標準到底是好還不好?按照你的標準到底要到什麼時候?要到什麼時候?財政收支劃分法才到可以去討論隨時分配的時間?要改善到什麼時候才能開始討論?"},{"start":14728.772,"end":14729.692,"text":"請你先停一下好不好"},{"start":14751.602,"end":14759.906,"text":"我現在跟你講垂直分配的事情你要繼續扯水平分配的事情那垂直分配跟水平分配是有相關聯的"},{"start":14761.377,"end":14786.337,"text":"我現在先請教一件事啦目前財政收支劃分法依照您的標準垂直分配有沒有需要改善垂直分配要改善的部分事實上我們在立法幾個原則裡面都提到了我們會保障所以要改善嘛對不對會有要我們當然會去考慮這個部分一併會去考慮的對所以垂直分配的部分要改善嘛要如何改善"},{"start":14787.267,"end":14809.573,"text":"我的問題就是這樣啊你整份報告沒有回答這個問題啊你整份報告鬼打牆啊一百八十度自打臉啊說中央政府債務負擔人數沉重來 我們來看一下當初我們的準總統賴清德他在當台南市市長的時候跟著蘇貞湯出來呼籲"},{"start":14812.19,"end":14832.606,"text":"統籌分配款中央統籌分配款要改善我們那個時候中央政府長期債務的比例是多少36%按照您今天所說的我們有改善改善到27%我現在就完全聽不懂邏輯了以前國民黨在朝民進黨在野"},{"start":14834.265,"end":14855.043,"text":"長期債務比例是36%他們認為統籌分配款給地方的太少要改結果現在按照你們自己的數字喔改善到27點多了你給大家的報告竟然說中央政府的債務非常的沉重討論要謹慎這什麼邏輯啊這已經讓人不知道怎麼評論啦這什麼邏輯啊36的時候"},{"start":14863.406,"end":14878.079,"text":"36的時候要改善要多給地方統籌分配管現在27的時候中央政府債務負擔的比例非常的沉重所以我們財政收支劃分法討論垂直分配的時候要審慎有這種邏輯嗎"},{"start":14881.582,"end":14903.317,"text":"有這種邏輯嗎?委員我們寫的是事實的一個呈現目前的一個債務比例當然我們希望能夠債務比例更能夠往下降我想這個是中央在財政上都必須要而且讓我們的財政韌性耕足但是呢在未來在垂直分配的時候一樣是可以考慮地方的一些需求"},{"start":14904.545,"end":14928.314,"text":"所以現在的立法,你們現在的規劃方向是什麼?一樣嘛,是一片空洞,是嗎?不是,我剛剛跟委員報告,我們要先解決這個分配的問題。對啊,所以我現在就在跟你處理垂直分配的問題啊。我是說水平的分配應該要先處理。所以嘛,你又繼續的拿水平分配的問題來混淆視聽嘛。不願意正式的去面對垂直分配的問題嘛。"},{"start":14929.514,"end":14937.565,"text":"我為什麼要垂直分配、水平分配,一個一個跟你談清楚?理由就在這裡嘛!你到現在都還在鬼打牆!時間已經超過很久了OK,好,謝謝好,謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢,接著我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":14962.16,"end":14985.225,"text":"主席、各位委員有請財政部部長有請莊部長部長好辛苦了也恭喜你繼續擔任部長還是要以這個準格奎的最後的發布才是為準次好這個"},{"start":14988.621,"end":15016.871,"text":"921政災的時候有訂了這個重建的帳型條例莫拉克颱風的時候也有訂了一個災禍重建的特別條例本席這個也在內政委員會跟內政部還有相關的部會也提了政災、風災就個案的而言就每一個受災戶而言"},{"start":15018.206,"end":15044.119,"text":"各案的救助的額度、租屋的補貼、重建的額度、利率以及年限不應該它是一個大七億的發生還是一個小七億的發生不應該有這樣的一個差別待遇這個是基本的對一個受災富而言所以無論是這個0403的大地震"},{"start":15048.001,"end":15074.856,"text":"還是未來因為台灣是一個多颱風、多地震、多水災的一個地方所以我們的方向現在就要跟部長我們的方向就是應該要去定一個常態性的只要是因為風災只要是因為地震或水災所發生的天然的災害"},{"start":15076.311,"end":15087.179,"text":"對災害我們對於受損的企業產業也好或個人也好都應該要有所補助的方式來讓他們可以盡快的復原是對因為這個部分未來我會去推動修正這個災害防救法"},{"start":15106.747,"end":15130.288,"text":"在《災害防救法》還沒修之前對於零四零三大地震所造成的我們還是必須要去面對所以這個部分尤其是部長是留任的對未來新的行政院長上任之後我一樣會做這樣的一個質詢希望能夠促成這個方向"},{"start":15131.325,"end":15155.346,"text":"好我們看這個當初921大地震的時候這個財政部訂了一個921震災災民重建家園貸款信用保證業務處理要點這89年下面那個畫紅線的89年開始後來又做了修正這個信用保證業務處理要點"},{"start":15157.278,"end":15157.438,"text":"財政部委員會長"},{"start":15176.411,"end":15176.891,"text":"財政部委員會長"},{"start":15200.998,"end":15223.916,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":15224.673,"end":15224.833,"text":"財政部"},{"start":15240.811,"end":15240.831,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":15266.252,"end":15267.173,"text":"財政部協調相關銀行"},{"start":15279.343,"end":15303.353,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":15303.753,"end":15326.898,"text":"這個利率就按照油脊條這個存款利率一年期固定期定存的一個固定利率的然後還要比這個還要低是這樣的希望能夠朝這個方向去處理包括修繕貸款也是一樣最高300萬以下免息所以部長是不是可以往這方面去努力"},{"start":15327.8,"end":15346.175,"text":"跟委員報告零四零三的地震的部分本部的所屬機關也好我們的公股行庫也好對於這個災民的一些受損的一些補助都是從從優從寬從簡來的方式來做處理那委員這一項建議的話那我想公股行庫他們今天也都在這邊也許可以把它納入一個參考是"},{"start":15347.815,"end":15359.298,"text":"這部分還是要你財政部來正式的因為之前我剛有提嘛正式當時我還是正式定了一個要點好不好我們來演繹謝謝謝謝委員謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢請接著我們請吳立華委員質詢謝謝主席先請金管會主委我請黃主委"},{"start":15381.892,"end":15398.76,"text":"主委好 今天委員會的專報他的命題就是直接說到我國的融資公司缺乏監管所以呢衍生許多社會亂象影響到我們的金融市場也影響到我們人民的權益"},{"start":15399.921,"end":15426.189,"text":"那事實上我自己就感同身受很多為什麼?因為我們作為民意代表常常就會接到民眾的一個陳情希望我們幫忙像我們看這個齁這是和潤機車的EZ代那他有什麼問題呢?他還不限你的廠牌不限你的車領只要能夠發動就可以呢代到最高65萬"},{"start":15428.143,"end":15451.397,"text":"所以想要請教一下主委到底什麼機車可以價值65萬他這個授信沒有依照那個信貸Beloved Value去計算其實我們已經有去做導證了所以他會重新調整他的內部的融資公司的這個授信的標準有導證嗎我們有要求他去做調整那其實我們都知道嘛他的本意就不在擔保品"},{"start":15452.037,"end":15466.713,"text":"他只是想要誘使你去借錢對,都是為了誘使你借錢嘛而且是越多越好因為他就可以用遠高於銀行的利率去讓你借錢可是呢,他的結局就是"},{"start":15467.634,"end":15495.455,"text":"可能你還不起嘛你就會扣繳你的薪資強制執行啊然後讓你呢產生債權之後呢這個債權呢還可以賣來賣去就衍生很多的亂象啊像我們常常看到新聞像這個是天道盟他還可以開資產管理公司他主打什麼呢抵押房子就快速放款可是簽約了之後他霸占你的房子回租給你"},{"start":15496.435,"end":15520.572,"text":"當你繳不出那些例行租金的時候就開始使用一些不正端的一個手法讓你呢非常的辛苦那像這個另外一個叫方正國際資產管理公司他呢是專收那些無法處理的呆帳還有那些債務人的失聯案結果哇他生意很好吸引很多為什麼那些成年老帳啊"},{"start":15521.152,"end":15530.057,"text":"我只不過是一個民意代表可是我大概一個禮拜也會收到兩件就是找我就是簽那些高利貸本票那我能怎麼辦呢我們還是要接案啊我只能怎麼做"},{"start":15550.669,"end":15574.561,"text":"就是用我們的立委影響力請他高抬貴手不然我還能怎麼辦呢所以我在這個地方特別就是也要去拜託一下我們應該要來管一管那大家都說我們必須針對這些融資的公司要有一個融資公司法來管他可是從2007年送進來已經17年"},{"start":15577.682,"end":15577.862,"text":"主委請說"},{"start":15590.68,"end":15613.138,"text":"我想因為受信本身並不是銀行的專屬業務那這個融資公司過去大家衍生的一些問題其實在相關的法律中也都有規範消保法也都基本上是處理的所以當時並沒有特別著墨要定專法當然啦最近這一兩年所呈現的一些在這個行為面"},{"start":15613.979,"end":15639.637,"text":"所展現的一些大家無意的地方確實需要去琢磨那金管會也採取了一些措施那是不是足夠還是要給它法制化這可能跨部會再做一些討論另外我也跟您報告您剛剛在簡報中提到的有一種是它登記就叫融資公司那有一種它是資產管理公司它做的是所以這裡面有機構的管理也有行為的管理其實它是蠻複雜的"},{"start":15640.578,"end":15654.464,"text":"好,所以主委,您大概我聽到的重點就是說,反正每一次呢,被講了什麼,質詢了什麼,大家建議什麼,至少都有一點一點的推進啊。來,那聽一聽我們經濟部市長這邊您怎麼看,17年來沒有結論。"},{"start":15660.046,"end":15679.925,"text":"報告委員回應委員的剛垂詢的問題第一個我先講這是我現在即席的回應這個基本要回歸到民眾有資金的需求但是他沒有借貸的信用這是最根本的問題那麼如果回到銀行體系的話呢他的信用不足以支應他的資金的需求"},{"start":15680.265,"end":15680.285,"text":"經濟部"},{"start":15710.945,"end":15711.566,"text":"應成為主管機關嗎"},{"start":15738.484,"end":15738.844,"text":"主席"},{"start":15751.909,"end":15769.275,"text":"我們這17年來都可以聽得到兩邊都是各執一詞我們聽到的都是說經濟部都會主張雖然這個是公司但是你們主張就是說看起來這些行為都是屬於金融的行為"},{"start":15770.896,"end":15794.471,"text":"那金管會這邊呢也都會提到說其實也不完全是金融所以呢也主張說應該是用公司來看好沒有關係那總而言之我們要講的就是說我只想問到底金管會經濟部支不支持來設立這個融資公司法你至少表態嘛主委你支不支持"},{"start":15795.39,"end":15795.83,"text":"市長,經濟部支不支持?"},{"start":15811.681,"end":15820.567,"text":"所以我們今天來討論這個我們的命題是認為我國融資公司缺乏監管所以衍生社會亂象影響我們的金融市場影響我們的人民權益然後市長您是認為說如果納管其實是有壞處的"},{"start":15842.304,"end":15860.591,"text":"有利有弊這個就是政策評估而且在立法過程中真的要深入去研究我們這樣子齁我們看到的就是三不管的結果其實這個黑暗地帶讓許多人民不聊生啊生不如死啊"},{"start":15861.351,"end":15889.162,"text":"很辛苦啊我們可能無法管到無法想像到但是我們要講的就是說如果你不完全納管只是將民眾推入法外之地我簡單來講民眾要的很簡單他就算信用再不好政府能不能夠讓他有一個正常的管道合理的利率合法的借款還款就是這樣子而已民眾要的就是這樣子"},{"start":15890.742,"end":15915.667,"text":"那我想這個部分我們的這個金融監督管理委員會組織辦法他就有講第一條行政院為了健全金融機構業務經營維持金融的穩定及促進金融市場的發展特色金融監督管理委員會所以我們看到像我們知道的這個中租、合潤、育融"},{"start":15916.647,"end":15944.202,"text":"最大的這三大的租賃公司他的資產合計是1.5兆欸應收賬款是1兆欸他相當於半間的兆豐銀行欸結果如果我們現在用一句話帶過他不是金融業我想這個是說不過去的所以呢我們還是希望說請金融管會能夠至少來提出一個草案我們希望全面來納管這樣可以嗎主委"},{"start":15945.489,"end":15956.218,"text":"我想我們今天有相關委員的提案我們在做研究我研究很久了啦我想至少就是去做一下法案好不好"},{"start":15958.174,"end":15984.52,"text":"其實我跟您報告我們內部有一直有在研究那還要看行政院最後面的考慮所以到最後是行政院為健全金融機構業務經營維持金融穩定及促進金融市場發展所以意思就是說你們沒有這樣的一個責任報告委員這個不是金融機構他不是得到金管會執照的金融機構這個是融資公司或是非融資公司做的某一項的業務"},{"start":15985.9,"end":15988.122,"text":"請主委留下來就是很多人反應就是親人如果去世他可以透過國稅局去查他的遺產"},{"start":16005.097,"end":16022.172,"text":"但是呢就是我們今天談的這個融資公司的債務你沒管嘛查不到所以呢會衍生他一旦沒有拋棄繼承就會受害所以那種剛出生的孩子未成年的孩子他不明就李一出生就背負很大的債務所以我覺得"},{"start":16023.093,"end":16027.377,"text":"這個部分要他們公司的資料是可以做提供就是我們國稅局去查到底有哪一些租賃公司然後"},{"start":16046.169,"end":16064.241,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":16073.883,"end":16088.455,"text":"主席、財政部委員、先進、列定千萬市場官員、會長、公共夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請金管會黃主委、保險局司局長還有財政部莊部長以及負稅署的宋署長兩位部長好、署長好、局長好主委、部長剛剛聽了吳委員的質詢我覺得有點失望"},{"start":16100.433,"end":16125.312,"text":"擺明了目前三大融資公司他是因為政交法上市貴才得以納入金管會以政交法的方式來監管那剛剛要求的被繼承人他是不是可以查詢繼承人的被繼承人的資產負債的狀況因為目前資產公司融資公司他沒有納管那我們就沒有辦法提供資料給國稅局所以"},{"start":16127.287,"end":16131.909,"text":"主委你覺得這樣事情可以讓它繼續發生嗎?所以次長次長還在嗎?經濟部次長那你可以來幫忙嗎?這問題很簡單啊,剛剛又沒有請你上來,你可以幫忙處理?可以嗎?"},{"start":16153.982,"end":16178.72,"text":"是,委員好,這個,我們目前沒有融資公司這個登記業別是嘛,好啦請回好啦這一題呢我就很清楚嘛,大家在踢皮球嘛融資公司只有三大,最大的三間是因為政交法、上市櫃才被金管會納管資料你可以要求他提供那就就這三間,請金管會跟財政部配合把這三間,他本身,他民間的債務的部分他能夠提供給國稅局,可以嗎?"},{"start":16179.704,"end":16206.684,"text":"他不是銀行業,他不是你們所有的金融機構,他是上市貴公司,可以嗎?這三家就好了,我們要邀請他這三家上市貴公司,貴你們管吧?政經局,可不可以?各位要求,張局長各位要求這三家上市貴公司提供他們資產,大部分都在他們身上嘛,可以嗎?請求這三家來這三家要看他的性質,如果我們要提供的話,因為所有的上市貴公都要在裡頭"},{"start":16207.695,"end":16215.927,"text":"這三家就好了因為他是做融資債權不良債權的收購就這三家主委可以承諾嗎還是你不敢承諾"},{"start":16226.039,"end":16240.109,"text":"同樣的事情,融資公司他造成的債權,他所取得的債權,他可以跟人家追債,他可以用保單要求強制解約來取得他的保駕金,主任你知道這個強制解約的數量暴增你知道嗎?"},{"start":16242.108,"end":16267.697,"text":"我的了解有在增加中嗎?增加多少?局長?增加多少?下一頁?是不是這麼多?數量很高啦在你當局長那時候就發生這個事情嗎?為什麼這麼多件?都是因為為了追債要求把這個要保人他的保單解約取得保駕金為什麼?怎麼造成的?局長請說什麼原因造成的?以前可以嗎?"},{"start":16269.13,"end":16290.126,"text":"之前比較少,後來那個大法庭有一個解釋。很好,大法庭解釋,我們看一下。111年,大法庭就解釋了,可以合法執行命令,終止債務人為要保人之人所保險契約。請問保險局,為什麼保險契約可以作為債權強制執行的標的?這你應該很熟悉嘛,不是我第一個問的嘛,什麼原因?"},{"start":16291.306,"end":16291.566,"text":"請問一下負稅署"},{"start":16308.299,"end":16336.658,"text":"來,莊部長你知不知道你們的負稅署啊有去救人民欠國家的債也去要求去把他保單解約有沒有,你知不知道這個情況有,在個案上是有,是那為什麼你們要針對欠稅的民眾的保單是以強制執行沒有其他方式追稅嗎沒有其他的方式追稅嗎那當然有,是沒有其他的方式來,組長你說啦他查完以後沒有其他適合的財產可以不是沒有其他適合的財產都脫產了啦"},{"start":16337.558,"end":16337.958,"text":"來請問一下保險局局長"},{"start":16366.098,"end":16367.501,"text":"保障將強制解約之後會產生什麼問題?"},{"start":16380.218,"end":16401.885,"text":"稍嫌主約若強制執行,取得保駕金另外不算,要保人他的赴約以他為受益人的健康險、癌症險什麼的,通通都沒有了,是不是這樣子?你覺得合理嗎?這個部分,我們後來,是有點不合理,所以我們後來有找業者討論說,赴約的部分是不是應該給他一個延續,往下看"},{"start":16405.716,"end":16429.352,"text":"來,主委、部長,你看看齁,債務人就是保險要保人,他如果欠款,只要去申請法院強制執行,合法地中止命令,保險公司就中止授權契約,然後受益人也喪失了保險金的請求。請問,主委你知道嗎?一般來講,我們去把保險保約解約之後,我可以取得保駕金,跟受益人他授予這個保險的潛在利益,成比例嗎?你所知道的情況?"},{"start":16430.592,"end":16459.85,"text":"當然不成比例了不成比例嘛叫殺雞取卵嘛債權人拿回一點點債務人為要保人的保單解約之後他的受益人損失慘重有沒有辦法解決這個部分我的了解我們保險局有委外做研究很好來要求受益人有一些權利介入對的很好來我們往下看其實在上一屆我所尊敬的江永昌委員他就問過了說花錢交保費可能被拿去還債他在2021年的4月此下要求你們研議介入權入法研議進入如何"},{"start":16461.96,"end":16472.595,"text":"法委員,那個委外的報告現在完成了,我們正在做後續的評估。要不要告訴大家,你們研議的方向大概是怎麼樣?介紹一下什麼是介入權?大陸法規的介入權怎麼樣?"},{"start":16473.769,"end":16497.62,"text":"就介入權的部分,如果是受益人的部分可以介入,還有一些法制作業要處理,那我們再評估他的這個小分執行效益兩位,一位主委、一個部長,我對黃主委也很尊敬,那也是希望說這件事情可不可以在您卸任前,要求保險局趕快提出,一個月內提出修法的建議"},{"start":16498.609,"end":16499.309,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":16517.299,"end":16533.477,"text":"要保人的債務我進行部分的清償以取得不解約的條件保障我受益人的受益權你會遵守這樣的概念嗎?是,如果相關的法規修正我們當然要遵循好,謝謝主席、謝謝主委、謝謝部長部長承諾了一個月內喔,局長OK嗎?"},{"start":16535.17,"end":16555.087,"text":"點頭是表示同意啦齁主委有同意好 謝謝謝謝張家編委員質詢接著我們請楊瓊瑩委員王瓊瑩委員楊瓊瑩委員不在接著我們蔡依雲蔡依雲蔡依雲蔡依雲委員不在接著游皓游皓游皓委員不在接著我們何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員鄭振賢委員不在接著我們請吳春成委員質詢"},{"start":16566.902,"end":16574.159,"text":"有請黃主委主委你好你辛苦了"},{"start":16577.269,"end":16596.704,"text":"聽到你不續任是蠻驚訝的因為雖然你一直被稱為是在任最久的金管會主委那大家也都盛讚你的能力"},{"start":16597.705,"end":16612.996,"text":"抄手、有為有所、有口皆憋．那也說雖然你任期這麼久高層呢一整猶豫就覺得是不是應該有創新還是捨不得結果呢就是因為一個"},{"start":16614.958,"end":16616.76,"text":"羅明財妖艷事件"},{"start":16642.121,"end":16660.271,"text":"反正我覺得如果是這樣就太昏庸了這樣的長官就太昏庸了但是如果不是這樣子的話那個長官應該要還給你一些公道一些說明或者是其他的這個不是我今天要談的事情今天呢"},{"start":16661.972,"end":16686.434,"text":"要感謝你這個我其實這兩個多月來針對這個高齡金融的問題然後也跟金管會有很多的質詢互動那特別是在我們陳建仁這個院長的總質詢的時候我提出了要求金管會"},{"start":16687.813,"end":16702.066,"text":"比照綠色金融政策來建立高齡社會的金融政策因為就是我在提倡的所謂壯世代現在55歲以上的人在台灣有800萬人了這一群人掌握了2 3的台灣的"},{"start":16704.989,"end":16710.931,"text":"主委在經過這些溝通當中也有感所以我們的綠色金融做得非常成功在你手上推動得非常成功"},{"start":16724.315,"end":16742.353,"text":"所以很有經驗也希望你比照這樣子來建立高齡社會的金融戰略提出金融行動方案還有上市規公司的永續發展的報告這兩項我在上禮拜有得到金管會"},{"start":16743.714,"end":16768.94,"text":"正面的回覆其實我在這裡我今天並不是要質詢你我是要肯定你然後我在這裡也要做金管會我們黃主委的政策也宣示我們在這裡財經單位我們的很多的事務官、行政部門要把這樣的承諾延續下去金管會給我的公文4月12號"},{"start":16770.64,"end":16794.576,"text":"承諾了剛才那個是陳建仁院長同意的兩個措施我在這裡再次宣誓一次第一點就是金管會克正研擬高齡金融行動方案持續強化促進高齡經濟發展相關措施構築高齡者友善金融環境"},{"start":16795.757,"end":16815.931,"text":"那金管委在這裡有認知高齡者需求具有高度的益職性不要以前都一視視為老人高齡者不應被視為社會的依賴者應該發展多元的服務方案讓高齡者有自主選擇的空間滿足其益職性的需求"},{"start":16817.773,"end":16836.768,"text":"所以第二點就是要對於高齡者可以鬆綁商品的限制可以從事多元金融的商品投資簡化投資的手續那第三點就金管會現在呢克正對於多元高齡族群的金融需求"},{"start":16837.608,"end":16860.318,"text":"嚴密高齡金融行動方案,初步規劃從資金面向、商品面向、培力面向、還有生態系面向、世大推動面向來翻轉高齡金融族群的需求。希望剛才可以看得出來,主委有聽進去"},{"start":16861.499,"end":16886.388,"text":"朝了這個構築四大面向要來推動這個高齡的金融那第二點就是有關上市櫃公司的高齡永續發展的措施那金管會呢會把這一個治理的評鑑指標類為要求這個交易所或者什麼來列入上市櫃公司做報告的事項"},{"start":16887.208,"end":16907.338,"text":"第二點對於公司股票上市申請的上市櫃公司要對於高齡有關的員工的福利、產品的生產還有服務進行要列入申請上市櫃公司的審查參考以上是不是主委你的原意"},{"start":16911.636,"end":16930.042,"text":"有其實前面那四個面向我們正在積極處理中我會盡快把它至少有更成熟特別跟您報告所以期待這個你的努力然後我們接下來的也都看到能夠延續看到這個時代的需要打造長壽經濟把一場災難的引發海嘯轉變成國家發展的動力"},{"start":16937.925,"end":16946.171,"text":"謝謝吳淳淳委員的諮詢。今日發言登記的委員均已詢答完畢。本次會議作如下決定。一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員及"},{"start":16960.18,"end":16974.673,"text":"委員質詢及未答覆或請補充資訊,請相關部委於一週內以書面答覆。委員另有要求期限者,從其所定。委員陳亭飛、王定宇、邱志偉所提書面質詢。"},{"start":16977.455,"end":16987.941,"text":"均以列入紀錄、刊登公報．並請相關部會已予書面答覆．本次會議議程已盡情完畢．堂有不在場委員補題書面質詢．一併列入紀錄、刊登公報．並請議事人員協助處理。散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}