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辛苦了辛苦了 那個上次逃動部這個霸凌事件也是我排一個檢討會報告 然後就在這裡從早上一直砲轟到下午 那到中午的時候行政院那邊就回復了"},{"start":50.71,"end":63.637,"text":"下午四點半,行政院長召開記者會。我們的何部長就辭職了。我覺得很惋惜。務務部這一次的"},{"start":65.65,"end":85.92,"text":"這個事件的檢討我這裡要跟部長講一下就是早上我還收到你們衛務部員工的陳情救救我們衛務部的員工他說這一次的這個檢討報告是提高陳情到次長"},{"start":87.16,"end":108.069,"text":"所以他們還好,但是一般都是主秘在主持。所以現在這個主秘一定先到減息到sustention開,讓他沒做。他如果再回去當主秘,那這些報告全部他都看到了嗎?那這些人不是完蛋了嗎?"},{"start":109.878,"end":128.011,"text":"好,謝謝召委的隨行。我想我們在一開始調查的過程當中都,我想那個理事長應該很清楚,指導這個整個就是說他負責召集嘛,他應該很清楚,只要是當我們在調查的時候所有的相關人都請假。"},{"start":128.792,"end":149.913,"text":"我就是不行不不影響到那個整個調查所以相關的人不會去看到他在這個報告裡面所以這個部分請大家放心絕對我們非常的非常的非常的保護到這個我們所訪談的所有的同仁而且絕對"},{"start":151.394,"end":161.404,"text":"做最最嚴密的一個保護所以這個這個案子將來即使誰呢當主秘他可以往前去review去拿出來去拿出來看會不會這樣"},{"start":166.706,"end":185.685,"text":"按照目前的規定調查報告不僅是密件而且是限約關係人都是不能看所以要有職權才能看的那結束就封起來了是不是這樣"},{"start":188.087,"end":195.856,"text":"我是覺得要勿妄勿縱啦,盲盲就這個我們那個年代當醫生部長你也看不到了,我們離開房,如果這樣沒辦法對主治醫師腳就要踹來了"},{"start":205.946,"end":206.106,"text":"蘇清泉"},{"start":222.992,"end":249.6,"text":"我阿兔就在顧記者馬街宴晚上亂七八糟的刀倉槍倉的一堆也是這樣拗過來但是現在時代不一樣啦他們有年輕人的想法不一樣現在如果跟我的刀我把他用拔劍給他打一下我就死了好不好我才會有個啊所以不一樣所以現在的主管或許以前是也曾經被霸凌過"},{"start":250.981,"end":259.323,"text":"現在不要變成你是受害者將來變成加害者可能有什麼心態我不知道啦 部長你要看什麼"},{"start":261.673,"end":278.065,"text":"我想...我以前也被丟過病歷,是不敢用麥克彈啦。你們外科系統的科研比較好,我們內科系統基本上是丟病歷啦。但是我從來沒有丟過年輕醫師的病歷。"},{"start":284.312,"end":298.647,"text":"因為時代不一樣整個環境不一樣以及大家玩笑的方式不一樣陳昭蘇委員對你的這篇報告非常的不滿意我想退回去"},{"start":299.528,"end":315.641,"text":"有點對你們難堪但是我想再回去好好的再再再回顧再review一下好不好我就不用那麼不好聽的字眼那這裡面有一些我看表現也不錯的啊像你們國衛組這個張主任每次委員要愛衣服給他叫他都會來要穿什麼東西都會穿這樣"},{"start":321.271,"end":321.471,"text":"蘇清泉"},{"start":341.704,"end":366.053,"text":"我們台灣的新生兒死亡率是比日本高將近一倍嘛然後呢我們國會院裡面有一個兒童健康什麼什麼什麼委員會啊你那委員會在幹嘛的是在做政策制定還是有到基層的practice到醫院這個層級因為五家兒童醫院的"},{"start":367.631,"end":378.661,"text":"院長也罷他們來找我說他們希望成立可以為我們這邊成立一個兒童醫學健康研究中心然後他們來"},{"start":381.588,"end":398.716,"text":"整個台灣的資料做研究新的治療方法新的癌症治療方法等等就依託在其中的一家醫院然後全國的資料都在這邊我第一句話就問說那你跟國會院這個機構有沒有疊床駕駛部長你有看過嗎"},{"start":408.157,"end":429.502,"text":"我想國會院是我們國家重要的健康智庫那它據我了解在過去成立相關的一個組織的時候其實在推動很多兒童的一個重要的議題的論壇那這個也都做得在政策上相關的好在醫院裡面當然就是"},{"start":430.322,"end":433.385,"text":"我現在是說國會院這個單位是不是在做政策制定而已啊?政策的原意跟制定"},{"start":453.534,"end":463.731,"text":"謝謝委員。我們事實上是從102年開始,因為當初很多立委鼓勵我們成立這個所謂的國家的兒童醫學研究中心。"},{"start":465.225,"end":487.335,"text":"這幾年事實上是用依法基金的這個經費雖然每年經費都在遞減但事實上我們維持每年都在遞減這幾年因為醫治師強力推動這個所謂的優化兒童醫療照護那個裡面就有很多的策略來結合不同的醫學中心、兒童醫院跟這個幼童的這個專責的這個醫師那他們現在怎麼會有這個要求呢?"},{"start":493.106,"end":521.685,"text":"會想說在臺大兒童醫院或者是哪裡放這個研究的中心?我想那個醫事室是臺大醫院奧科出身的他最了解這邊的話我補充一下因為這是不同層級的研究政策研究的部分其實我們是透過國會院然後推動兒童優化兒童醫療網計畫得到的data其實沒有個資的情形現在其實是由國會院來提供可是每個醫院對於每個disease"},{"start":522.165,"end":538.335,"text":"其實他都希望有更深度的研究知道從預防端開始怎麼做所以針對每一個不同的面向的地方的話我只能說以國衛院而言他是從公共衛生的角度從疾病預防治療的角度那是每個醫院希望能夠做的事"},{"start":539.664,"end":544.427,"text":"我的想法就很單純,就是,孩子越生越少,變動關一年,今年是2023年過星期的八千五百多人生小孩生到四千兩百,生不到一半啦"},{"start":554.974,"end":555.114,"text":"這是好事啦!"},{"start":582.276,"end":602.572,"text":"那我請部長你責成我們國會議事室．跟這些兒童醫院研究一下．看到底他們是要愛什麼．他們是要如何配合．要不然他們重複開．我們就沒意思了．這樣好不好好沒問題這個非常重要．而且資源一定要放在．各自能夠發揮共同來聯繫一個我們臺灣最好的．"},{"start":605.894,"end":633.413,"text":"兒童研究及一個品質的體育對啦 這個很重要啦每一個都要好好的栽培每一個都是很重要來 那院長你請回那再來就是我們麻醉出問題啦診所出問題啦那醫生到底有沒有受訓那我瞭解起來不真的假的我等一下請市長回答齁他說那個診所做雷射然後打propofol"},{"start":634.301,"end":653.823,"text":"那這個牛奶針,我前幾天做大腸經胃鏡,我也煮那個,我也煮泡泡泡,整個我是便宜做,所以很擔心,那真的會呼吸會變壞,血壓會下降,所以那種針很好用,但是會出問題的啊。"},{"start":655.305,"end":670.984,"text":"我看你們的規範八項裡面沒有在石中良當市長的時候制定的嘛那八項什麼銷鼓啦什麼的要麻醉在場那這個我的了解是那個執行醫師自己打打完自己再做然後這裡就輸於照顧"},{"start":673.905,"end":695.887,"text":"那個在醫院保證救的回來,那在診所,那去有KLG這個是很糟糕的事情這個診所裡面醫美診所裡面醫事室現在準備要怎麼做這樣是沒有辦法接受的台灣有800家醫美診所真的有規範的才41家,是不是這樣"},{"start":697.637,"end":697.677,"text":"蘇清泉"},{"start":713.325,"end":739.602,"text":"合法而且品質優良的診所的部分的話我們其實是建議民眾第一個其實就優選醫政會通過認證的第二件事情是在執行推動的過程當中如果是說麻醉這件事情只能夠由麻醉科醫師做的話其實就會有人手不足的問題可是實際上面很多的情況下面都會運用到麻醉所以怎麼提升這個我們講的安全的部分的話才會有是說"},{"start":740.262,"end":740.462,"text":"蘇清泉"},{"start":755.456,"end":779.146,"text":"我不曉得麻醉專科醫師跟麻醉專科婦理師他們的前線跟他們的分際是在哪裡我搞不清楚像這種應該你要麻醉你就在醫院坐就好了為什麼醫師到外面到處兼差這樣這樣一定會到最後一定是無人嘛無人就是這樣他先自己補自己煮自己煮自己弄都要出事了"},{"start":783.052,"end":811.343,"text":"這是要管理的,不然大家不信心去啊軍售這筆也沒搞,什麼都沒幫你做什麼,每天都沒搞我看連插管都不要插管所以這個很危險啦口腔師也是一樣,我要問你的你跟醫師是怎麼配合牙科醫師現在是在聯合診所就可以實習嗎還是PGY才在聯合診所"},{"start":816.411,"end":836.758,"text":"牙科醫師的實習一定是教學醫院。PGY的話的確有部分是在診所。因為牙醫師本身一定要在急診受診。是,董事長你是急診的齁。一定要在急診受診過。一定要在麻酔科受診過。這樣他才有基本的救人的基本能力。"},{"start":838.139,"end":856.232,"text":"我已經接過好多牙醫師麻藥一打因為麻藥裏面有馬肩、大腦肩裏面有加一些保釋敏加一些epinephrine加一比一千的那煮了人家就VTR人家就心力不振、心思戰鬥啊上來救的比較久、救的比較久就沒了所以麻醉那個牙科醫師會不會插管我看10個、9個不會插啦"},{"start":864.252,"end":883.734,"text":"所以這個都是要review的這個要加強他們訓練的還有實習如果在在牙科診所還得了這個是一個漏洞啊所以實習沒有只有PGY有對只有PGY有PGY應該也要在教學院在聯合診所上次就出事了高雄不是出事了嗎所以這個"},{"start":886.482,"end":889.466,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想不管是醫療院所的品質安全"},{"start":902.103,"end":918.196,"text":"可以說是從朝委員您過去在擔任醫師公會理事長那個時候就一直呼籲大家一直在開這個會所以我們非常的重視那該如果在麻醉這個部分會比較需要再精進我們會找相關的醫學會"},{"start":919.597,"end":937.299,"text":"跟相關的專科醫學會、牙醫團體我們共同來研議看怎麼樣讓民眾真的到醫療院所是很安心而且是很安全的所以我們一定要努力追求所以我再回過頭來行政院說要讓"},{"start":938.746,"end":940.826,"text":"雖然是匿名但是只要舉出他的"},{"start":966.391,"end":966.971,"text":"被檢舉者要勿忘勿重"},{"start":990.888,"end":991.349,"text":"謝謝蘇委員、謝謝柯部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":956,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（9時43分）謝謝主席，我請部長、國衛院院長、醫事司司長及口腔司司長。"],["主席：好，有請邱部長、國衛院院長、醫事司司長及口腔司司長。"],["邱部長泰源：召委早。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，辛苦了。上次勞動部的霸凌事件，也是我排一個檢討會報告，然後就在這裡，從早上一直炮轟到下午，到中午的時候，行政院那邊就回復了，然後下午四點半行政院長就召開記者會，然後我們的何部長就辭職了，我覺得很惋惜啦。","衛福部這一次針對這個事件的檢討，我這裡要跟部長講一下，早上我還收到你們衛福部員工的陳情，他說請救救我們衛福部的員工，他說這一次的檢討報告是提高層級到次長，所以他們還好，但一般都是主秘在主持，所以現在主秘先暫時把他sustaination起來，讓他沒做了，將來他如果再回去當主秘，這些報告他不就全部都看到了？這些人不是完蛋了嗎？部長。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝召委的垂詢，我們從一開始調查的過程當中，我想呂次長應該很清楚，他負責召集，他應該很清楚，當我們在調查的時候，所有的相關人都請假，就是不影響整個調查，相關的人不會看到這個報告，所以這個部分請大家放心，我們絕對是非常保護訪談的所有同仁，而且絕對做最嚴密的保護。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這個案子將來即使誰來當主秘，他可以往前review，去拿出來看，會不會這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我請人事處長說明。"],["李處長玉惠：根據目前的規定，調查報告不僅是密件，而且是限閱，關係人都不能看。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以要有職權才能看，結束就封起來了，是不是這樣？OK。我覺得要勿枉勿縱，我們那個年代當醫生……部長你也差不多啦，我們在開刀房，如果稍微處理不好，跟刀的主治醫師腳就踢過來了，他穿木屐耶，踢了都會瘀青，那個時候實在覺得很委屈，但是那個年代就是這樣，三天值一次班，白天上班跟刀，晚上還要看急診，那時根本沒有急診專科醫師，我R2就在顧急診了，在馬偕醫院，晚上亂七八糟的，刀傷、槍傷的一堆……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我也是這樣熬過來，但是現在時代不一樣，他們年輕人的想法不一樣，現在如果跟我的刀，我用木屐踢他一下，我就死定了，差不多就被人家告了，現在不一樣了，所以現在的主管或許以前也被霸凌過，曾經是受害者，將來不要變成加害者，他們可能有一點這種心態，我不知道啦，部長你的看法呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我想……"],["蘇委員清泉：你也被別人欺負過？"],["邱部長泰源：我以前也被丟過病歷，是不到被用木屐踢啦，你們外科系統的比較可能會這樣，我們內科系統基本上是丟病歷，但是我從來沒有丟過年輕醫師的病歷。因為我們的時代不一樣，整個環境不一樣，以及大家管教的方式也不一樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：陳昭姿委員對你的這份報告非常的不滿意，我想若要把它退回去，對你們有點難堪，但是你們再回去好好的回顧、review一下，好不好？我就不用講那麼不好聽的字眼，我看這裡面也有一些表現不錯的，像你們國會組的張主任，每次我們委員要什麼，一叫他，他都馬上來啊，要準備什麼東西都馬上準備，這樣他也被檢舉霸凌，所以有的地方就是要勿枉勿縱，我還是要講這句話「勿枉勿縱」，一定要查清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定秉公處理，勿枉勿縱。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，這個是很重要的。因為我的時間不多，我要接續問國衛院，我們臺灣新生兒的死亡率比日本高將近一倍，國衛院裡面有一個兒童健康什麼委員會的，那個委員會在幹嘛的？是在做政策制定，還是有到基層醫院這個層級practice？因為5家兒童醫院的院長來找我，他們希望衛福部這邊成立一個兒童醫學健康研究中心，然後他們在collection整個臺灣的data，研究新的治療方法、新的癌症治療方法等等，就依託在其中的一家醫院，然後全國的data都在這邊。我第一句話就問：那你跟國衛院這個機構有沒有疊床架屋？部長，你的看法是怎樣？"],["邱部長泰源：國衛院是我們國家重要的健康智庫，據我了解，過去在成立相關組織的時候，其實推動了很多兒童的重要議題及論壇，在政策上也做得相當好……"],["蘇委員清泉：衛福部……"],["邱部長泰源：在醫院裡面，尤其是醫學中心，當然希望教研、臨床上能夠一致，可能它的性質是不太一樣的。"],["蘇委員清泉：我現在是說國衛院這個單位是不是在做政策制定而已？"],["邱部長泰源：政策的研議跟制定。"],["蘇委員清泉：是不是這樣？"],["司徒院長惠康：謝謝委員，事實上我們從102年開始，因為當初有很多立委鼓勵我們成立這個國家的兒童醫學研究中心，這幾年是用醫發基金的經費，雖然每一年經費都在遞減，但我們維持……"],["蘇委員清泉：每一年都在遞減？"],["司徒院長惠康：是，這幾年因為醫事司強力推動優化兒童醫療照護，裡面有很多的策略，結合不同的醫學中心、兒童醫院跟幼童的專責醫師，我們有……"],["蘇委員清泉：他們現在怎麼會有這個要求呢？會想在臺大兒童醫院或者哪裡放這個研究中心？"],["邱部長泰源：我想醫事司是臺大醫院兒科出身的，他最了解。"],["劉司長越萍：這邊我補充一下，因為這是不同層級的研究，政策研究的部分是透過國衛院，而推動優化兒童醫療網計畫得到的data，在沒有個資的情形下，其實是由國衛院來提供，可是每個醫院對於每個disease都希望有更深度的研究，知道從預防端開始怎麼做，針對每一個不同的面向，我只能說，以國衛院而言，他們是從公共衛生的角度，而從疾病預防治療的角度，那是每個醫院希望能夠做的事，以上。"],["蘇委員清泉：我的想法很單純，孩子越生越少，屏東縣去（2023）年死亡的有八千五百多人，出生的小孩不到4,200個，不到死亡人數的一半，再這樣下去就全部死光光了；所以每一個孩子都很重要，每一個孩子都是我們的寶貝，對每一個孩子都要花很多錢在他們身上。現在他們要求在小孩3歲之前做一個全身的體檢，讓他們好好做一下，看是花一萬塊還是多少，不管是要用健保的錢還是用公務預算，3歲到6歲都可以做一下，我說：這很好啊，一些心律不整的問題都把它抓出來，這是好事啦！我請部長責成國衛院和醫事司跟這些兒童醫院研究一下，看他們到底是要什麼、要怎麼配合，錢不要重複花，重複花就沒意思了，這樣好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題，這個非常重要。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，這很重要。"],["邱部長泰源：而且資源各自一定要能夠發揮，共同凝聚臺灣最好的兒童研究跟品質的提倡。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦，這個很重要，每一個都要好好的栽培，每一個都很重要。好，院長你請回。","再來就是麻醉出問題了，診所出問題了，醫生到底有沒有受訓？是真的還是假的，我等一下請司長回答，就我了解，他們說診所做雷射，然後打Propofol牛奶針，我前幾天做大腸鏡、胃鏡，我也注射那個耶，我也注射做Propofol……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：但我是在醫院做的，所以很安心，那個真的會讓呼吸變差、血壓也下降，所以那種針很好用，但是會出問題的啊，我看你們的8項規範裡面沒有……在石崇良當司長的時候制定的嘛，那8項像是削骨什麼的都要麻醉師在場。就我的了解，那個執行醫師自己打，打完再自己來做，然後就疏於照顧，如果在醫院保證救得回來，在診所就這樣讓他死了，這是很糟糕的事情，醫美診所裡面……你們醫事司現在準備要怎麼做？這樣是沒有辦法接受的啊！臺灣有800家醫美診所，真的有規範的才41家，是不是這樣？"],["劉司長越萍：不是真的有規範，是所有要執行我們特管辦法裡面的項目，都必須經過衛生局的審核，然後第三方的認證、經由醫策會的認證，那才是委員在講的，所以在選擇合法且品質優良診所的部分，我們是建議民眾，第一個，優選通過醫策會認證的。","第二件事情，在執行推動的過程當中，如果麻醉這件事情只能夠由麻醉科醫師做的話，其實就會有人手不足的問題，可是實際上面很多的情況都會應用到麻醉，所以怎麼提升安全的部分，我們才會要求中重度麻醉、重度麻醉的其實是要有受過訓練的，所以在這個地方我們會強化，特別是這次出問題的地方是在Propofol，所以怎麼樣讓大家可以安全使用這部分，我們會再來加強。"],["蘇委員清泉：我不曉得麻醉專科醫師跟麻醉專科護理師他們的權限跟他們的分際是在哪裡，我搞不清楚，像這種的狀況，若是要麻醉，在醫院做就好了，為什麼要這樣做呢？然後醫師到外面到處兼差，到最後一定是沒人嘛！然後醫生就自己弄、自己注射，做到都出事了，所以這要管理啦！不然這樣大家都沒信心了。畢竟診所設備不夠，什麼都沒有，monitor也沒有，什麼設備都不夠，我看可能連插管都不會，所以這個很危險。","口腔司也是一樣，我要問你的是，你跟醫師是怎麼配合的？牙科醫師現在是在聯合診所就可以實習嗎？還是PGY才在聯合診所？"],["邱部長泰源：我請張司長說明。"],["張司長雍敏：牙科醫師的實習一定是教學醫院；PGY的話，的確有部分是在診所。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為牙醫師本身一定要在急診受過訓，一定要在麻醉科受過訓，這樣他才有基本的救人能力，我已經接過好多牙醫師的案子，麻藥一打，因為麻藥裡面有Procaine、Novocaine，裡面加一些Bosmin、加一些Pinephrine、加1比1000的，那個打下去，病人就VT了，病人就心律不整、就心室顫抖了，送來有時救得起來，有時救不起來人就沒了，所以牙科醫師會不會插管呢？我看10個有9個不會插，所以這個都要review的、都要加強他們訓練的，如果實習是在牙科診所，那還得了，這個是一個漏洞啊！所以實習沒有，只有PGY有？"],["張司長雍敏：對，只有PGY有。"],["蘇委員清泉：PGY應該也要在教學醫院，若在聯合診所的話，上次就出事了，高雄不是出事了嗎？所以口腔司跟醫事司要好好的配合，好不好？"],["張司長雍敏：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個很重要啦！不然這就太可怕了。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，我想不管是醫療院所的品質安全，可以說是從召委過去擔任醫師公會理事長那個時候就一直呼籲大家，也一直召開相關的會議，所以我們非常的重視，如果在麻醉這個部分比較需要再精進，我們會找相關的醫學會、相關的專科醫學會、牙醫團體，共同來研議看看怎麼樣讓民眾真的到醫療院所是很安心的，而且是很安全的，這是我們一定要努力追求的。"],["蘇委員清泉：最後，我再回過頭來談，行政院說霸凌平臺是要上去登錄的，上次媒體訪問我時提到，上面說要登錄你的單位、你的姓名、你的身分證字號，然後才能登錄，要檢舉的人看到這樣都怕得要命啊！所以我要求不能這樣子做，挖洞給自己跳，誰敢啊！所以衛福部有這樣做嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個部分行政院有特別說明，雖然是匿名，但是只要有舉出具名的人、事件，還是要審慎來處理，所以這次我們衛福部只要是有這樣的情況，雖然他是匿名，也都會列入調查的範圍裡面，所以不一定需要有這樣的條件，而且我們當然也是希望能夠審慎，以免大家都……"],["蘇委員清泉：被檢舉者要勿枉勿縱；檢舉的人我們要保護，就是這麼簡單的道理。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝蘇委員，謝謝部長。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：接續我們請劉建國委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","邱鎮軍","涂權吉"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、考試院、行\n政院人事行政總處針對「所屬機關有關霸凌事件之調查檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1140602_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}