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MANGA"},{"start":1739.67,"end":1763.509,"text":"好我們現在繼續開會本日議程為邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就限塑政策執行成效與家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為進行專題報告並備質詢現在介紹在場的委員及列席的官員先介紹委員陳昭芝委員林月琴委員"},{"start":1768.106,"end":1795.079,"text":"王正旭委員陳金輝委員那介紹今天出席的官員環境部薛富聖部長資源循環署賴盈盈署長環境管理署顏旭明署長化學物質管理署謝彥汝署長氣候變遷署蔡林怡署長"},{"start":1796.974,"end":1811.764,"text":"大氣環境司張勝清司長水質保護司王玉斌司長監測資訊司謝炳輝司長綜合規劃司吳佩瑜司長環境保護司蔡孟宇司長經濟部產業發展署連錦章署長"},{"start":1827.212,"end":1848.024,"text":"產業園區管理局蘇宏毅副組長商業發展署簡俊良科長能源署陳景生組長臺灣電力股份有限公司吳敬忠副總經理行政院國家永續發展委員會秘書處吳明慧處長"},{"start":1852.284,"end":1855.25,"text":"接下來我們就先請環境部薛部長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":1865.511,"end":1882.305,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天是大院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開全體委員會議感謝委員們來邀請本部列席報告"},{"start":1884.632,"end":1907.4,"text":"從1991年也就是2002年開始環保署當時的環保署推動沿途減量相關的政策透過法令的強制以及自願性的方式來達到限塑的一個目的在塑膠的管制上面面臨聯合國全球塑膠公約的擬定"},{"start":1908.18,"end":1927.742,"text":"以及針對可不必要且可避免的塑膠產品推動減量是環境部近期面對的一個重要課題因此管制策略也從過往的源頭減量提升為源頭管理"},{"start":1928.283,"end":1946.684,"text":"而在整體的廢棄物管理方面除了持續推動塑膠資源的循環外環境部也與各部會共同來提報廢棄物的管理以及資源化的行動方案這個跨部會的合作盤點來加強管理"},{"start":1948.986,"end":1966.951,"text":"此外本部也以資源極大化、廢棄物極小化作為目標正在啟動資源循環促進法的一個立法工作來推動廢棄物的減量也是全球共同面對"},{"start":1967.831,"end":1986.78,"text":"的一個這個嚴峻的挑戰那本部呢將持續推動相關的策略來達到永續的一個目標那西季呢大願各位委員能夠給予我們權力的支持那使本部的各項策略能夠按部就班來推進"},{"start":1988.121,"end":2004.719,"text":"為了使大宴各位委員能夠對本部在限塑政策執行的一個成效以及廢棄物減量的檢討跟策進作為有所了解簡單的來向各位委員做一個報告第一個請參考這個簡報第7頁就是在"},{"start":2008.243,"end":2023.408,"text":"有關購物用塑膠袋執行的一個情形那91年那一年使用了將近200億個的塑膠袋那在我們限制使用之後在去年事實上變為大概92億個所以這個減少的量超過50%以上"},{"start":2028.59,"end":2038.094,"text":"那各位在看到下一頁就是免洗餐具的執行也是一樣我們在95年的使用量一年大概24.4億個那在這個109年就降到將近13.1億個"},{"start":2049.021,"end":2060.714,"text":"下月有關一次用的飲料杯的執行情形那民眾現在這個自備飲料杯的比例也從6%大概提高到16%那年減量是將近"},{"start":2071.264,"end":2087.418,"text":"至於一次用塑膠吸管的執行情形方面我們從108年7月1日開始實施管制以來大概每年可以減少至少1億支以上"},{"start":2088.306,"end":2107.909,"text":"另外一個就是理塑用品的執行情形我們從明年現在已經公告從明年開始理塑業不提供4種一次性盥洗及保養用品另外也不主動提供6種個人的衛生品"},{"start":2109.05,"end":2126.546,"text":"至於各位委員也相當關心網購包裝的執行情形我們今年開始也積極推動,去年就公告希望未來每年可以減少大概將近3萬公噸的網購包裝材料"},{"start":2130.469,"end":2147.619,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":2147.939,"end":2148.119,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2168.746,"end":2168.926,"text":"謝謝學部長"},{"start":2193.075,"end":2213.504,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面記錄均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出與其不受理"},{"start":2214.464,"end":2227.86,"text":"暫定10點30分休息5分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案如有提案請盡早提出以利益勢進行現在請登記第一位陳昭芝委員發言有請徐部長謝謝"},{"start":2237.795,"end":2240.578,"text":"陳文豪部長早部長上次我們在質詢的時候我們有提到垃圾處理系統的問題當時你也同意就是說我們目前垃圾處理的量能也不及應付垃圾產生的"},{"start":2252.87,"end":2259.592,"text":"的生成量那我們今天比較一下請部長看一下這個左邊這個圖過去這幾年來末端的處理經費相對於源頭的這個減量經費大家看到這個差距非常的大那我想請部長就是說說明一下你們有評估過就是我們把管理的重點放在或資源放在哪一個端末端處理還是源頭減量你剛才也提到源頭減量是現在的政策"},{"start":2281.357,"end":2292.522,"text":"但是現在的差距這麼大而且這個源頭減量編的經費大概到1億左右這個將差在20倍請部長是不是可以做一個說明我可不可以請我們"},{"start":2297.112,"end":2316.281,"text":"謝謝委員跟委員報告那今年會比較經費比較高的原因是我們的廢墟處理設施很多尤其是焚化廠已經到達應該整改的這個期限所以在這一段期間我們除了整改外對於現有的掩埋廠也做一個"},{"start":2317.282,"end":2344.865,"text":"加強的措施所以投入比較多的經費OK我了解就是說那你這個經費但是在早期107年也其實差距更大欸如果這幾年才進行這個焚化爐的這個齁那個種線種心齁但是事實上過去是很大那現在是有下降不過這個部分還是說要考慮一下這個這個占比就是最有效益占比那你們也可以參考一個其他先進國家大概有沒有一個最適比率啦當然不可能是一個極端值啦齁就是正式比率好嗎"},{"start":2348.889,"end":2363.325,"text":"請您看一下左邊這張圖這個是去年5月在科學月刊的一張科學性的報告假設塑膠處理剛剛也提到限塑是非常重要的一個手段塑膠處理方式不改的話它整個塑膠的年產量垃圾的年產量是一直往上升的"},{"start":2366.488,"end":2382.53,"text":"但這裡有討論到有幾個方法那其中這個控制跟減量就是源頭可以降低有望降低30%那替代材質17%回收再用可能降低20%等等那這個從源頭減量可以有最大的程度的減少"},{"start":2383.131,"end":2383.851,"text":"一次性的塑膠包裝占所有塑膠產量的40%"},{"start":2409.423,"end":2436.6,"text":"是塑膠產業最大宗而且相當於每年有1.61億噸1.61億噸的塑膠包裝在市面上用過一次就丟棄了這是第一個這是第一個數字那根據聯合國他有一個計畫叫turn off the tap簡單的話就是關掉水龍頭源頭的部分他的報告也說重複使用是從源頭減量最可規模化的一種減量方案部長那您對這個"},{"start":2438.274,"end":2442.135,"text":"但是台灣真的是蠻特殊的啦,因為我們很可能也包括這個化工產業相當的發達,所以我們在這一塊源頭的減量事實上是非常的重要。"},{"start":2458.141,"end":2468.763,"text":"但是要繼續努力因為理想還是差太遠了而且是越來越高你再怎麼努力結果是越來越高部長那不好意思請看一下右邊右邊這個就是你們設了一個支援這個循環網路這個目的是解決廢棄物的清理的一個計畫它公布的時間在2022年11月但是據我了解這是最近的報導迄今只有一案"},{"start":2483.306,"end":2512.225,"text":"只有這個日月光一案通過這個計劃申請那這個成效很差啊那到底發生什麼事情啊好我請問我們賴署長的公務員報告那我們這個是推動我們產業就事業他可以來結合他上校有提報一個就是可以來結合網路的計劃那另外我們在因為就是產業他們比較不熟悉這個法規所以我們有持續的來這個宣導那源頭減壓部分另外有一大塊是消費面我們是用法規來強制"},{"start":2513.546,"end":2540.599,"text":"你說不熟悉法規我認為其中有一點因為這個業者必須主動去找再利用的業者這個部分其實政府公局是可以做一個協助讓參與度再高一點因為這參與度不像話到現在只有一家通過而且這個是對於那個限塑塑膠的部分是效果是最好的一個部分好那我們再來談簡述真的剛剛部長也有提到了我們在這個已經2022年第一次提出剛剛部長有"},{"start":2541.459,"end":2559.941,"text":"有在報告就塑膠袋、塑膠餐具的那個當時就開始做一些限制但是22年了我們來看那個成果好嗎右邊這個圖雖然部長一再說我們有減了多少但是右邊這個圖請大家看2013年到現在就10年了以來塑膠袋的成長率是"},{"start":2561.222,"end":2587.072,"text":"公頓14.4%塑膠餐具的成長率是68.7部長嚇死人了68.7那這個資料來自經濟部統計處那我剛剛也聽到你有提到這個幾大類的管制對象我不曉得環境部有沒有掌握這幾個八大類管制對象哪一個部門表現是就是評估嘛就是是哪個部門做得好或是沒做好"},{"start":2587.752,"end":2608.959,"text":"這個都可以有再加強啊?給成員們報告,事實上我請同仁把我們整個塑膠的使用量根據類別做一個來分析,事實上反而是在傳統市場在癱瘓以及在這個夜市,他用的塑膠袋的這個 那就要修正你們的"},{"start":2610.6,"end":2615.345,"text":"我發現這個之後已經有其他人了部長理解很重要就往這個方向努力下一個我們來看這個探的問題根據這個氣候變遷因應法三讀通過以後淨零排在這非常重要市面上出現很多奇奇怪怪的課程永續管理師探全交易管理師"},{"start":2630.123,"end":2633.627,"text":"根據這個商桌的報導像這個鋼鐵石化業、製造營造業等等他們這個高耗能的產業他為了符合這個政府跟這個客戶的這個減碳規範都急著找人產可是那有人把他視為商機啊那就是教大家怎麼買碳權"},{"start":2645.981,"end":2646.161,"text":"是,我瞭解"},{"start":2665.761,"end":2680.898,"text":"給陳委員報告我們也被這個困擾很久那我們也持續發布新聞稿提醒企業民眾要注意但是因為我們基本上就是類似像補習班一樣環境部大概沒有全線"},{"start":2682.199,"end":2683.66,"text":"但是目前你們是以製造業跟發電業為優先我知道報名非常踴躍"},{"start":2711.92,"end":2711.98,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":2724.82,"end":2745.729,"text":"因為部長根據內政部統計房貸的負擔率在三成才算是合理的範圍但全台大部分都超過破三成大概只有剩下嘉義、屏東跟基隆市大概在這個水準但是房價持續升高這對很多居民來說是一個非常重要的一個議題那部長為什麼這樣講我們來看這個高雄"},{"start":2748.831,"end":2756.868,"text":"高雄跟雲林這兩個縣是重工業發展跟發電廠的所在地這個是所謂的高碳排地區所以將來他們會對於這個"},{"start":2759.701,"end":2778.985,"text":"﹗"},{"start":2779.846,"end":2791.174,"text":"對這些低收入相對低收入戶的這個都市是非常嚴重的所以隨著這個這個碳費的機制你有沒有提出一些因應的措施或配套不要讓這些受災戶成為什麼成為綠色通膨受災本來我們是美意是"},{"start":2796.658,"end":2815.277,"text":"那這個你有做規劃嗎?謝謝這個陳委員特別提到公正轉型這一塊了那的確不管高雄跟雲林都是所謂傳統產業煉鋼但他們平均收入就低於全台灣所以他們排碳量反而是比較高所以他們會影響包括企業包括周遭的"},{"start":2816.118,"end":2817.98,"text":"我希望全民能夠享受綠色轉型的好處但是不要成為要避免成為綠色通膨的重災戶包括將來我們攤位的分配這些受到影響大的城市"},{"start":2842.599,"end":2843.72,"text":"臨月秦委員發言您好"},{"start":2868.308,"end":2897.529,"text":"我們就來看今天這是你的重點那大家也要問部長首先我們來看你的那個限塑的政策的成效真的是方法很多元但從我們比較有聽到的就是說比較你覺得很亮眼像循環杯的使用現在去便利超商都買咖啡的時候一定會有在有這個東西還有呢之前職棒的球賽"},{"start":2898.822,"end":2913.572,"text":"現場的飲料杯也改成循環杯是這個大概是一語肯定那目前大概也是你到超商去自備飲料的話自備那個杯子的話那大概就是可以有五元的那樣的一個政策"},{"start":2914.452,"end":2935.776,"text":"那大型的那個素食餐飲店但也加入了限制使用吸管跟我們的提供循環包的政策這大家都是耳熟能詳的那你剛也報告提到說針對於我們的旅宿業者限制使用一次性的用品的話每年大概減少的4.6億個小瓶子跟2100公噸的垃圾那也未來是在我們的網購這個"},{"start":2942.03,"end":2945.76,"text":"東西過度包裝這邊未來大概今年大概就可以減少2.3萬公噸可是部長"},{"start":2950.882,"end":2975.305,"text":"我相信剛才看到我的前一頁就知道說好像方法很多做了很多事情我們都覺得很有創意想了很多方法去減塑可是很遺憾的從經濟部的數據來看的話我們從塑膠袋我們的塑膠餐具的使用量內銷的銷售一直在創新高而且雖然去年有一點下降可是塑膠袋仍然是降不下來"},{"start":2975.985,"end":2982.03,"text":"所以從這個有幾個可以反映得到的是說你91年去推動限塑到112年推動了20幾項"},{"start":2985.78,"end":3009.794,"text":"但還沒有在報告當中的但數字反映國人使用這個塑膠品的那個數量跟內銷金額仍然事實上是降不下來所以是不是政策事實上是根本沒有打到重點否則就是我們的執行成效不佳那環境部報告只看到說單點的政策減少多少塑膠的製品而且但我覺得"},{"start":3010.598,"end":3035.431,"text":"沒有碰觸到我們的核心就是塑膠我們的越減越多這個第二個你的政策五花八門每項政策都感覺上好像是你環境部的夥伴們或是一些公部門有創意的同仁今天想到什麼東西舉個手發言然後就去做了到底他真正的要去解決什麼問題所以部長可不可以回答我你在"},{"start":3036.127,"end":3057.627,"text":"推動限塑政策到底遇到什麼困難?你覺得你的限塑政策成效如何?謝謝林委員的提點事實上也是把重點講出來的我們包括塑膠袋、塑膠製品的使用事實上傳統市場、癱瘓跟夜市是佔了將近60-70%"},{"start":3062.808,"end":3079.022,"text":"在過去環保署跟環境部在推動限塑的這一塊事實上都是以有開統一花票特別是包括百貨公司、超商這些比較大的連鎖店、貪亂有14個場域來推行反而這14個場域佔我們整體塑膠袋的使用量"},{"start":3085.189,"end":3099.282,"text":"還不到20%所以等於說在某個程度也可以說沒有打到痛點但是那個痛點會影響我們所有民眾的日常生活"},{"start":3100.163,"end":3124.44,"text":"所以他必須要有一段時間包括透過宣導包括我們所有的民眾都要體認到塑膠對整個環境甚至是健康的危害事實上假如我們能夠配合包括今年聯合國塑膠公約他們會在年底會完成法令的立法"},{"start":3125.18,"end":3135.761,"text":"那全世界都要來推,我們發言是要換一個部長如果覺得這麼重要那我覺得今天為什麼在深格環保署公佈"},{"start":3137.465,"end":3166.433,"text":"二零一八年到二零三六年的限塑政策你都將全面我們的近現用視為目標可是為什麼不太理解的是二零二三年升格為環境部的時候突然對外說明這不是唯一解方而且目前我翻找了我們的環境部網站也沒有看到新的路徑跟你的規劃方向部長剛剛前面你都講說這件事情很重要可是怎麼你的"},{"start":3167.533,"end":3187.875,"text":"檢索目標整個政策大轉彎所以問一下部長說請問臺灣的我們的限塑政策要這樣大轉彎時隔5年為什麼突然政策突然要沒有政策轉彎環保署當初這個剛剛委員所在這個螢幕上這個就是當初環保署的時候就規劃這樣子"},{"start":3189.462,"end":3215.179,"text":"但是你現在已經要改變了?現在我們還是照環境部做還是繼續走這個方向所以政策它是有延續性我們組織規模變大但是我覺得政策只要是對的就要有延續性不管是今天誰來這個當這個職務或者說組織規模有沒有變因為它是一個很對的方向好那部長也問你剛剛也講說今天很多時候是國人的習慣那"},{"start":3217.573,"end":3234.185,"text":"到底這陣子你們針對國人習慣又做了些什麼因為目前這14類的場所禁用塑膠袋可是我們的傳統市場小吃攤販早餐店餐廳就如你剛剛講的都沒有納入可是你又要去做可是這邊又沒有去納入要去或者是"},{"start":3234.665,"end":3258.041,"text":"也沒有看到整個觀念上怎麼去做引導加上塑膠袋非常便宜也就是我花一塊錢兩到五塊錢我就所以誘因不足大家就很難改變民眾習慣就你又知道民眾習慣很重要它事實上是最主要的可是好像也沒有這麼具體的作為整個塑膠袋跟塑膠餐具經用目標目前看起來不明確然後時程也不清楚"},{"start":3259.202,"end":3281.169,"text":"假如委員有需要更詳細的資料我想我們循環署可以在待會會後提供給委員事實上這個都有一系列所以可不可以借盡其他國際的經驗就是是不是訂定一些國家的目標讓我覺得民眾也要知道說什麼時間點接下來我什麼東西不能用什麼時間點要做什麼然後往前去推"},{"start":3281.869,"end":3309.982,"text":"那可是你一直沒有做都告訴我們這四類場所都很嚴重可是沒有更多具體的一些作為所以可不可以有一些針對一次性產品向消費者收取的額外的費用這邊有沒有去做考慮或者是市場流通的管制這些這確保一次性塑膠杯跟那個食品容器都重複利用的有沒有可以不含塑膠的替代品的取用都要取代性你可不可以去思考這些"},{"start":3310.742,"end":3329.582,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":3329.722,"end":3347.128,"text":"甚至能不能有鼓勵面鼓勵我們的店家如果減少的話有沒有些誘因甚至去做一些貼補才有辦法去解決這個鼓勵措施都有而且我們現在有42個傳統市場也列為我們的示範已經在示範了希望他們成功之後可以"},{"start":3347.988,"end":3365.366,"text":"再來就是不好意思主席再給我兩分鐘那個垃圾的問題上面這個圖可以深橘色的是你一般廢棄物的總量當然我們可以看出來105年起我們的垃圾總量不斷的在攀升"},{"start":3366.207,"end":3385.323,"text":"但橘色的事實上是支援回收量看起來都是正成長也是突破歷史新高可是也代表大家都很認真的在做回收可是我們的垃圾製造量是沒有減少的所以這張圖事實上是我們的焚化爐的處理量能"},{"start":3385.503,"end":3388.845,"text":"但是也因為這量能下降垃圾來不及燒就是暫時擱置以桃園為例去年地方民意就有提到說像桃園龍潭電子湖的那個垃圾掩埋場"},{"start":3407.697,"end":3407.777,"text":"主席"},{"start":3422.376,"end":3424.258,"text":"第13間突然增加那個是因為定義的問題以前"},{"start":3440.536,"end":3458.608,"text":"事業廢棄物裏面的員工所產生的是歸類在事業廢棄物後來把它弄到一般廢棄物那另外一個2019年這個COVID-19右手邊第二根那個COVID-19之後事實上反而也造成很多"},{"start":3470.876,"end":3471.497,"text":"接下來我們請陳金輝委員進行質詢"},{"start":3504.315,"end":3527.302,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員早我請薛部長好請薛部長部長好部長最近的新聞說您是零負評啊留任的機會非常的高所以我也想問部長520之後我們還有機會一起去考察循環杯嗎你可以用個人的名義邀請我"},{"start":3530.243,"end":3556.803,"text":"下禮拜我也有約了一些循環杯的廠商來聊一下他們目前執行的困難點在哪我也很希望可以跟部長有一些交流是來請陳文都指教是那部長如果有機會留下來的話我也想請問未來環境部您覺得前三個重要的事項您需要處理的是什麼陳文那個可能性不存在"},{"start":3559.318,"end":3578.276,"text":"我剛剛已經跟媒體記者報告過了基本上我非常謝謝賴總統當選人讓我有機會繼續服務希望可以把您的經驗可以傳承下去一定會,沒有問題那再來呢,我不知道部長會不會開到第三次的審議會,碳廢審議會"},{"start":3581.209,"end":3583.37,"text":"跟委員報告目前還在聯繫調查當中"},{"start":3597.106,"end":3623.707,"text":"因為我們從媒體看起來啦第二次開完會的結論我覺得只要關心碳費這個議題的人會覺得會議的結論很令人傻眼因為最後呢你們第二次會議是說初步獲得共識包括碳費討論要有科學依據要不要有科學依據這個應該是一般人的常識啦然後要"},{"start":3624.748,"end":3638.235,"text":"要更了解國外碳費這個制度運作還有制定的背後政經原因這跟第一次的會議結論幾乎重疊你第一次會議完就是說希望可以收集國內外的數據來做這個碳費的研擬"},{"start":3642.711,"end":3665.569,"text":"我跟前委員報告當初我們會立審議委員會大家就期待說他能夠更多元性所以我們的委員裡面有來自真的是非常的多元那這些委員有一些以前他是沒有接觸到碳廢這個議題以及他對整個我們包括產業結構包括環境面這些東西事實上他們真的不了解"},{"start":3666.129,"end":3694.098,"text":"所以需要給他們一些時間原本這個目標是定第一季什麼執法都要全部出來結果看上次開會的結論還是前端的法制工作要完備目前重心會放在這些法制作業表示環境部似乎沒有把這些執法準備好讓審議委員來做審議是嗎不過我給陳委員報告執法現在除了費力這一塊其他的事項都已經完成了"},{"start":3694.838,"end":3723.708,"text":"但是他必須走過行政程序才能夠對外面預告所以並不是那個問題所以前端的法制工作還沒有完備只是說他還沒有定案沒有正式公告你就不能拿那個資料給企業去做自主減量計畫的計畫書撰寫所以現在是4月底5月初我們會有第三次的審議委員會這個全民都在期待中"},{"start":3725.569,"end":3747.96,"text":"剛剛林月琴委員有問到說您是不是政策轉彎但是您覺得沒有可是如果原本這個6年前說禁用4種一次性塑膠產品有這麼重要你也覺得是一個政策的延續這次我們的報告有20幾頁喔圖文並茂非常精美為什麼這次的報告不提這件事情"},{"start":3749.801,"end":3775.44,"text":"給陳委員報告這個是政策面、策略面跟執行面有執行面比較偏向技術面那技術面有時候跟我們當初的議題事實上是有一些落差所以可以做調整啦技術面對,所以您覺得其實會有落差嘛2030年有一點困難達成這是您的真心話吧是啊,因為民眾你要叫他到傳統市場去買東西不用塑膠袋裝"},{"start":3776.661,"end":3779.403,"text":"您的報告裡面有寫個人 這個你們現在已經限制了中型還有大型業者的零售業者"},{"start":3799.834,"end":3820.496,"text":"對網購的產品這個要減速但是呢第一個重點是好不得使用pvcpvc其實也是對我們人體健康危害所以他不只是對地球危害對人體也有危害因此在這個大型的個人賣家為什麼都沒有在包裝限制的使用對象裡面呢"},{"start":3822.644,"end":3833.54,"text":"大型的個人賣家C to C因為你們這邊只有限制到中型跟大型的零售業者網路平台大型的賣家個人的"},{"start":3842.651,"end":3860.722,"text":"現在有很多小的這個青年創業家他們都是個人賣家是很認同環境部的理念的所以你們如果可以提供相關的指引還有獎勵機制的話可以吸引這些認同你們環境部理念的個人賣家就可以跟上"},{"start":3861.636,"end":3878.347,"text":"好嗎?好 謝謝陳文但是其實我剛講的這件事情之前呢你們的環保署回收機管會已經講過了對他之前的發言有說未來會針對C2C這種個人賣家對於買家類型訂定2.0版本的指引來要求他們包裝建議這個2.0版本出來囉112年5月"},{"start":3889.875,"end":3891.317,"text":"結果呢你適用的範圍跟對象還是一樣是零售業啊"},{"start":3897.039,"end":3898.9,"text":"大型的比較大的規模的個人賣家其實我們可以去您說的這些零售業的平台"},{"start":3919.554,"end":3943.382,"text":"他們一定要交易資料就有了所以你們可以從這些平台裡面比較大規模的開始去做限制或者去做鼓勵推廣等等好我們再來看你的這個指引喔你的這個2.0版本的指引裡面有一個叫做自主管理計畫自主管理計畫內容包含民眾曾經陳情之品項好"},{"start":3945.022,"end":3966.114,"text":"這個是一個不太符合人性的指引欸民眾曾經陳情就表示他曾經對他有做出一些客訴說你這個包裝可能太華麗了用了太多塑料了結果你請這些業者自主管理把他被客訴的品項告訴你們你覺得這個有可能嗎"},{"start":3968.823,"end":3985.038,"text":"陳委員我在想說這一條當初列進來基本上就是我們希望既然是自主管理那你過往的紀錄說真的credit就很重要你已經犯過錯已經有這種紀錄那這種人我們基本上是"},{"start":3985.518,"end":4014.049,"text":"所以他更不會講啊因為他的規定很重要他怎麼可能會把他自己被陳情的品項拿出來列入他的自主管理計畫應該不太可能吧很難講因為他認為搞不好想要想要等於說去偷渡啦我覺得現在資訊很公開他想希望很心很僥倖不想跟你的資訊對不起來就對了這個意思啦是接下來您剛制定的這個齁對"},{"start":4015.57,"end":4039.578,"text":"表格裡面有規定說包裝的重量不得超過產品的重量的整體的多少整體的這個比例好很多民團都已經講到說你限制這個是沒有意義的因為網購就是在COVID之後越來越多像女生她也許第一次去實體店她知道自己的尺碼她後面就全部都用網購"},{"start":4041.178,"end":4066.604,"text":"所以呢這個重量40%、30%我跟你說就算是產品最輕最輕的洋芋片它的包裝都不會超過所以這個是非常的寬鬆啊因此如果持續這個網購的銷售是增加的最理想的方法我們還是應該要利用循環袋循環箱才可以做源頭的管理因為你的包裝不可能減少那我們來看一下"},{"start":4069.865,"end":4093.271,"text":"這個是108年的新聞稿說111年循環帶循環箱的比例要達到10%結果呢你們自己實行方法卻定到113年至少達到2%10%跟2%是不是這個落差修正幅度也太大你們在推動循環箱是遇到什麼困擾"},{"start":4094.735,"end":4096.996,"text":"但是你把10%修正成2%一定有什麼原因吧?"},{"start":4114.482,"end":4141.113,"text":"因為是法令規定所以還是有一個就是會做一些考量啦但是他們志願性因為還是有很多業者他志願會做會把這個循環帶的比例會增加很多部長我覺得你們可以往這個方向去演你啊比如說我們中南部以前我們會把一些酒瓶收一收嘛然後就會拿去做資源回收可以領回來一點錢所以如果你們循環帶循環箱可以這樣子去做回收有一些誘因應該會更好啦"},{"start":4141.593,"end":4150.795,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝陳委員好 謝謝陳委員謝謝好 謝謝陳金輝委員的質詢接下來我們請廖偉祥委員進行質詢謝主席 有請我們薛部長好 廖委員好"},{"start":4171.533,"end":4182.239,"text":"部長好,你剛剛跟這個媒體說你不會續任那第一個就是也我想要請問一下您這個任期之內你有沒有對於"},{"start":4183.442,"end":4205.7,"text":"你認為接下來下一任有三件最重要的事情在環境部裡面你認為有哪三件可不可以具體跟我們說一下我覺得這個環境部事實上很多重要的政策都在持續進行當中那當然這個從屬到部事實上整個組織結構也做了很大的改變"},{"start":4208.062,"end":4232.858,"text":"氣候變遷屬針對2050的淨零排放事實上這個是一個很大的挑戰我想也是一個全球的趨勢那當然各位會長關心這個碳費的徵收那我還是想要利用這個機會告訴大家就是說碳費的徵收他是一個手段真正重要而且我們希望達到的是減碳"},{"start":4234.138,"end":4259.498,"text":"檢探才是我們真正希望要達到的所以我們不要集中在碳稅、碳費這個議題所以第一個我覺得淨零排放檢探這個是這個重要的議題第二個當然就是資源形態我想今天我們開這個委員會大家也是很關心就是說這個地球的資源有限那特別是今年這個廖委員"},{"start":4260.178,"end":4287.106,"text":"之前也提到過今年事實上是聯合國全球的社交公約希望能夠在今年納入一個法律的一個位階那大家共同來檢討特別是我們的整個自然環境現在社交違例的危害跟健康的關係事實上真的都很大這兩個事實上是很重要那當然我們過去的努力在這個"},{"start":4288.146,"end":4288.166,"text":"好"},{"start":4306.483,"end":4328.497,"text":"謝謝部長所以你剛剛最後有提到垃圾廢棄物的處理那今天你在書面報告第6頁的表格裡面有說到目前的電池廢棄循環法規還有電池廢棄測試標準裡面其實都還在訂定那至於所謂的離電池創新技術的發展在環境部裡面有用到一些措辭像是修辭、促進或是加強"},{"start":4330.558,"end":4347.253,"text":"想請教我們的部長如何促進跟如何加強你們有什麼具體的我們的政策作為有什麼具體的方向嗎我想我們可以透過回收基金可以這些業者或者研究單位一些這個"},{"start":4349.155,"end":4349.295,"text":"獲得的資金"},{"start":4366.508,"end":4378.856,"text":"好部長我們來看看國際間有一些案例喔像在英國的政府節制在一年前的此刻他至少已經支柱超過4億英鎊大概是150億的合資用來專攻這個電池的開發跟回收利用"},{"start":4382.938,"end":4405.572,"text":"甚至英國的研究創新局跟他們的英國商業能源暨產業策略部也斥資至少3億英鎊舉辦了法拉第的電池挑戰賽那他這個挑戰賽他不是用半比賽為目的他主要是要克服電池部件的再利用跟他再循環的技術的突破"},{"start":4406.392,"end":4423.054,"text":"他們敢用這個宣誓的目的宣誓的目的是要讓市面上各類電池它有95%可以被回收所以我想要請教我們的部長我們國家對電池回收率的這個政策的目標是多少有什麼具體的方式嗎"},{"start":4423.968,"end":4426.809,"text":"部長,有沒有什麼具體的目標?比如說人家是95%的電池可以被回收,我們有沒有?"},{"start":4451.567,"end":4478.402,"text":"我們應該大概這個所謂這個定義可能蠻重要你所謂的95%可回收可被回收你講的是說譬如說我們賣100個鋰電池出去95個最後被回收這個概念還是說鋰電池本身好沒關係部長95%可以被回收好我想要表達的是建構這個電池循環的產業鏈是絕對應該是環境部很重要的對不對對不對沒錯嘛"},{"start":4480.183,"end":4508.109,"text":"所以現在目前我們智慧運輸啊綠能動力的電動載具也都興起喔但是因為在興起的這個時候大家還沒有感受到面臨太用電池處置上的急迫所以但是呢現在有很多電動車輛比我們密度使用更高更普及的國外他們卻早就有相關這個太用車輛電池的成熟處理機制但是對比我們國家目前我們汽機車的這個車輛的電池是被管制的"},{"start":4509.009,"end":4537.428,"text":"所以電池進到台灣在經歷使用之後當它的效能不足這個電池居然在我們國內就會直接被以這個廢棄物的名義做為黑粉也就是我們電池衰退之後理論上其實這個電池還有很多的利用空間並非純然的廢棄物但我們現在的做法基本上就是把它當作廢棄物處理因為這個部長所以電池當不在車子使用之後就會變到終端的處置"},{"start":4538.248,"end":4544.675,"text":"而且欠缺再利用的這個安排跟機制不知道這樣子是不是會造成我們很多的機會成本呢"},{"start":4547.337,"end":4572.393,"text":"電池不是一般的廢棄物它不可以隨便亂丟啊電池有另外電池的回收的一個分類所以它不能放到一般的垃圾假如是被發現反而要受到懲罰所以並沒有所謂這裡描述的這個現象就是說有業者或者民眾把這個廢電池拿去變成黑粉的這個可能或許是有"},{"start":4573.975,"end":4589.214,"text":"其實我們要表達的事情就是喔就是其實我們在業界也聽到很多的反應的聲音就是說這些電池其實它有很多的利用價值可是在我們的法規裡面是並沒有讓它充分的在這個民間好好的被再次的利用"},{"start":4589.975,"end":4616.402,"text":"所以這個包含著很多二手的會變成是除能設備對不對或者租借曾在使用的平台但是國內如果有創新的需求想要衰退想要用這些衰退的或是被車商淘汰的二手車用電池來做開發跟研究等都會因為電池受到這個法令的管制所以其實他們連研究實體的素材都沒有就變成是他要特別"},{"start":4617.602,"end":4632.269,"text":"想辦法或是想途徑來跟你們找要到這些衰退的電池我剛剛要表達的是這個意思所以我想要講的事情是人家是把廢物變黃金可是我們現在因為法令的關係就導致這些黃金會變成廢物"},{"start":4633.77,"end":4654.56,"text":"給廖委員報告 這個就是為什麼資源形成促進化很重要來也請廖委員要支持我們以前是把廢棄物幾乎是當作廢棄物在處理把它這個妥善處理就好但是我們現在把它資源化或者能源化這是兩個很重要的概念資源化或者能源化這個是我們努力的方向"},{"start":4655.663,"end":4681.525,"text":"所以預計到2025年我要講的就是這件事情我們要請環境部趕快的推動因為預計2025年的時候我們其實明年就會面臨到大量的報廢期我想你們應該知道可是你們環境部在升格前是說電動的電動車的廢棄電池處理量是足夠並也納入我們近零轉型的關鍵策略所以這件事情很重要嘛所以規劃相關的措施爭取到這些國科會的計畫等等的那"},{"start":4682.285,"end":4701.566,"text":"我想要請教部長就是說何時可以讓我國的電動車車輛淘汰用的電池賦予一個法律上可以再利用的身份讓泰用的電池真正做到資源循環再利用可不可以有一個比較明確的時間?對,立法院報告事實上我們現在已經有六家幾家的合法電池回收"},{"start":4702.307,"end":4731.433,"text":"的業者在座了並不是沒有是已經在座了只是這個規模還可以再擴大而且法令、制度我們還要希望它更健全能夠更有效是那請這個部長您因為我也想要說其實您是這幾個部會裡面我認為很好溝通的部長那也請您把這一屆的經驗和你的這個覺得很重要的事情好好的交接到下一任那也感謝您的付出好謝謝廖委員好謝謝"},{"start":4733.413,"end":4738.975,"text":"好,謝謝廖偉祥委員的質詢接下來我們請盧憲一委員進行質詢有請薛部長好,有請薛部長"},{"start":4752.428,"end":4769.898,"text":"市長好,我應該就是知道要問原住民的部分那大家都知道說原住民居住的地區大概都是在海邊啦不是在山上不過這些區域都是跟我們這樣環境非常的息息相關所以我們先看一下現在去年來雨的一個現況"},{"start":4772.319,"end":4798.277,"text":"去年蘭嶼在五月的時候在海邊發生了這樣的一些垃圾堆積的現象那環境部現在也有承諾說要協助我們台東縣政府來清運那怎麼說呢因為現在四月份又開始要進入他們的旅遊旺季現在是飛魚季然後接下來就是暑假了我想說針對這個部分環境部所做的努力有哪些"},{"start":4800.299,"end":4813.038,"text":"給盧委員報告,事實上對環以這一塊包括去年小潛颱風所造成的損壞現在恢復的情況我們行政院陳院長"},{"start":4814.54,"end":4833.576,"text":"昨天也率團到南乙去親自去視察我們次長也陪同陳院長過去事實上我們的環管署在這一塊已經也投入了很多資源來幫忙南乙做這些廢棄物的清除有特別去看這個東青海邊嗎?"},{"start":4835.07,"end":4852.928,"text":"有嗎?是不是請我們環管署嚴署長來跟主委報告一下細節包主委昨天由院長率領我們這個次長跟我都有到現場去那現在整個蘭嶼的大致環境是可以的"},{"start":4853.368,"end":4882.434,"text":"那在海邊的部分我們也有訂定向海致敬計畫那東青這個地方也就是我們的平板桌的一個重鎮這個海邊還有部分的有漂流物那這個固定我們都會有清除單位去清除那委員之前也有關心到那個垃圾堆置的問題那這垃圾堆置我們補助了3100萬元那原則上在4月30日我們全部會封栽的"},{"start":4884.394,"end":4908.181,"text":"我下個月會參加他們的飛魚季喔我下個月會參加那如果說真的沒有改善的話就找你囉是是沒問題那5月10號之前我們會全部把它清完好那我們再來看地震以後的一些垃圾清印的狀況花蓮喔大家都知道花蓮的垃圾可能也要運出去那現在沒有路的狀況之下那是怎麼來完成的或者是現在的處理狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":4909.913,"end":4933.311,"text":"事實上針對0403的花蓮政後整個協助的工作行政院包括副院長包括李秘書長已經有召開很多跨部會的一個協助那花蓮不早你有去嗎我有去我去了三次你說花蓮本身沒有我是說行政院跨部會的開會如何來協助關於這塊"},{"start":4936.735,"end":4958.781,"text":"關於垃圾的部分如何清運現在有這一部分事實上我們都配合花蓮縣政府所提出的請求有三項那環境部本身自己物理的經費大概支援的將近800多萬那另外有三四千萬是有關拆除那個大樓那個部分是由整個行政院來統籌工程會這邊"},{"start":4959.881,"end":4962.783,"text":"這是800多萬嗎?你說800多萬用在...自由環境部自己,因為他們開出來五項跟環境部有關,其中三項大概800多萬..."},{"start":4982.509,"end":4998.177,"text":"不是故宮,他是包括整個垃圾場的侵衰以及損壞他當初的有一些攝影機啦還有一些設施損壞那屬於環境部我們的管轄的範圍那我們就來協助"},{"start":4999.838,"end":5021.552,"text":"那我再講到今天的主題就是減塑的政策好了就是其實我在個人的生活習慣上當然都是去全聯買東西啦然後結果我買了洗髮精或是買了牙膏、牙刷我不覺得它有減塑的一個作用永遠都是要有四不完的包裝是不是"},{"start":5022.612,"end":5040.247,"text":"這個部分有在做努力嗎?是。第一個,我們希望未來三個S,就是說Single Mature,單一的材質,這樣回收比較容易,包括平蓋、平身。第二個,這個Simple Design,就不要再有那個標籤那種。"},{"start":5042.669,"end":5068.18,"text":"我昨天要撥那個漱口水的那個上面那個塑膠套環還被割傷我一說就已經包裝好它已經鎖好了它外面還要再加一個塑膠而且是兩層就過度包裝了對是的確啦我們認同這個現象但是這個就是有時候民眾不習慎所以是說2030年要全面禁用塑膠袋吸管餐具那你覺得可行性如何"},{"start":5069.601,"end":5083.319,"text":"我們先來看我們大概分兩階段當然第一個是限嘛限制它的使用那禁是完全不能用那個是當然挑戰有沒有更好的方法我覺得一直都說限制現在有沒有獎勵"},{"start":5084.8,"end":5110.439,"text":"有,是讓我們的回收基金就是有來做獎勵包括來推動這個減塑的這些廠商跟產業那個人呢?有沒有針對個人做獎勵呢?我們有立點的、集點的這個措施就是說你要很快的讓民眾能夠上手或是感受到說他沒有用這些東西他得到了實質的一個優惠在哪裡?"},{"start":5110.919,"end":5130.47,"text":"有有有,現在就是說透過幾點?應該都是要從生活上的細節去思考,不然如果是可行性不高或是他覺得利用力不高他也不會用就像我現在已經中了三次八百塊的全家的那個同意發票可是我卻從來沒有領過,因為我第一次去領的時候"},{"start":5132.051,"end":5154.816,"text":"陳陳光卡明明就是我的我報的我的APP我的手機號碼然後呢那不是好也好那我就說我就叫那個那個店員說你你重新用一遍他也不會我就說有這麼難的一個對講的一個方式嗎是不是所以我覺得這個部分就是要從世界去"},{"start":5155.296,"end":5180.314,"text":"去討論才會有可行性的結果不然永遠都是這樣子限制然後怎麼樣永遠都做不到最後一個就是我講到我們最近在我們離山嘛離山又發現了垃圾山所以我們一直覺得山上應該是最乾淨的可是卻常常發生這樣的事情所以如果有這樣的事情你的辦法是什麼"},{"start":5183.021,"end":5195.171,"text":"這一塊我請我們這個黃關樹原署長來我先考一個問題好了部長你認為現在全部長現在全台灣最漂亮的鄉鎮最乾淨的鄉鎮在哪裡"},{"start":5197.189,"end":5222.64,"text":"我覺得很多餒那我有提供一個給你就是我們那邊每次都是評比全國第一名的叫霧台鄉希望你有空去看一看那他是連一個垃圾都找不到的地方所以他為什麼會這麼優秀是當然是在地的一些功德心或者是鄉公所的努力不過我想說這方面你看出現在大梨山而且是我們水果產區你覺得你的作為是什麼你有沒有想過這個問題來回答一下好嗎"},{"start":5225.378,"end":5241.333,"text":"我覺得這個我們民眾的素質當然這些年來感覺我們在某一個程度來看民眾素質真的提高比如說我們COVID-19期間大家主動戴口罩但是真的是亂丟垃圾的這個習慣"},{"start":5243.795,"end":5258.303,"text":"還有很大的努力空間啊我希望離上這個部分能夠進行能夠改善好嗎那也希望如果在續任或者是休息以後有機會去霧台鄉走一走好不好好謝謝謝謝劉委員的邀請謝謝好謝謝劉先英委員的質詢接下來我們請王玉明召委發言"},{"start":5277.983,"end":5283.307,"text":"謝謝主席主席我們請學部長還有經濟部聯署長好請好黃委員好好部長好那個李遠哲他說政府騙人2050淨零不可能檢探努力不足"},{"start":5297.983,"end":5326.298,"text":"這個部長你有看到李遠哲昨天的談話嗎我稍微有看到新聞那李遠哲院長是我非常敬重你覺得他講的是不是真實的我尊重任何人的言論自由我覺得他的批判是有道理的為什麼我們從415這個限電危機來看環境部跟經濟部的作為這個我們看到415台灣差一點就發生了全台大限電"},{"start":5328.799,"end":5349.936,"text":"我們看到新達三四號燃煤機組他是備用機組結果火力全開燃煤機組火力全開部長你知道這個對於我們的空污影響會有多大嗎他之所以會變成是備用機組就是因為他對空污的影響很大所以他必須除役"},{"start":5351.125,"end":5364.175,"text":"結果在415經濟部一直對外說台灣不缺電王美花部長話講得很大聲在地震過後經濟部話也講得很大聲說我們的電力供應都沒有問題結果"},{"start":5366.076,"end":5366.276,"text":"不過給網委員"},{"start":5383.044,"end":5384.646,"text":"那他可以這樣子做嗎?他有環保限制你知道嗎?"},{"start":5399.764,"end":5424.197,"text":"我想台電應該是會遵照作為整個空品管理的單位作為我們應該要去檢探的單位環境部部長知道他們在做這件事情嗎你是什麼時候知道的你什麼時候知道他們要火力全開三四號機組我想我們尊重包括經濟部跟不是尊重的問題你知不知道我們是做環境"},{"start":5426.198,"end":5436.246,"text":"所以對於整個這個電力的運作那你知道415跟416很明顯的416空氣品質就更糟你知道嗎"},{"start":5438.302,"end":5455.435,"text":"你們有監控嗎?今天本席要問的就是作為環境部你是空品的主管機關你也是檢探負責的單位當經濟部要採取這些作為的時候環境部有去阻止嗎?有去限制嗎?"},{"start":5456.736,"end":5476.771,"text":"我覺得我們站在我們的立場我們會去觀察整個空氣品質的變化我們在全國有佈滿大概一萬多點的空品的監測站所以事實上假如王委員到我們的網站去隨時現在都有隨時的這些我要問的是你的職權"},{"start":5478.352,"end":5497.407,"text":"當李遠哲批判說政府在騙人檢探是假的的時候我覺得作為環境部你們應該要把你們的職權拿出來用出來如果你今天對於經濟部你沒有任何的這個可以去限制加以限制的這樣的權利的話那就是放任了"},{"start":5498.367,"end":5510.129,"text":"經濟部說我要火力全開就火力全開啊即使有環保限制我突破又怎麼樣有罰則嗎要罰嗎以4月15號到4月16號你看到4月16號4月16號興達電廠還是火力全開啊都到九成以上環保限制也拿掉了所以請問這個興達電廠是要常態化的供電的嗎這個那個我們的經濟部"},{"start":5528.662,"end":5541.207,"text":"聯署長來說明一下政策是你們在定的為什麼要台電說明?那政策是你們下達的吧?能源署今天有來嗎?來組長上來"},{"start":5549.192,"end":5559.942,"text":"整個政策都是經濟部定的 不用通通推給台電 台電只是執行單位請問415限電 組長 這個下達、新達要火力全開的是你們嗎?當然沒有限電 你們在背後做了這麼多 讓這一些該環保限制的都火力全開了"},{"start":5572.509,"end":5596.007,"text":"是他現在是就是說他因為調度是要及時調度啦所以如果有需要的話他是他要在符合環保限制之下來做調度的這個是沒有問題的他有符合環保限制嗎已經突破了環保限制啦環保限制你有去看高雄的相關的法規嗎他可以他最高可以運轉到多少你說"},{"start":5597.779,"end":5621.793,"text":"新打3號4號機3號4號機它的環保限制當然就是要符合空污法也要符合那個環評的限制是沒有錯但是它跟高雄市政府是有針對這個調度時候的可以做這個排放可以到什麼程度是有一個約定的到哪裡啊?你講啊我們是不是請那個台電來詳細的說明一下"},{"start":5622.833,"end":5635.741,"text":"我要先問你政策的問題另外一個4月16日4月16日你們的整個供電充裕亮綠燈根本沒有需要動用到新打三次結果還是火力全開那有沒有違反規定因為這個備轉其實是看每個小時是不一樣的所以你是承認4月16日就是有缺電備轉低於8%以下囉"},{"start":5650.52,"end":5653.361,"text":"那你經濟部告訴大家我們現在整體的供電一直到4月16號是不是還有這個缺電之雨?"},{"start":5670.827,"end":5697.225,"text":"備轉低於8%以下有沒有出現過?有所以你的新達34才需要火力全開運轉到9成多?監封的時候這個預測是沒有到是沒有備轉太低的啦但是呢因為有時候基礎會故障那備轉的用意其實就是要應付基礎故障那如果按照你這個邏輯那新達就要常常火力全開了不用有環保限制了是不是?"},{"start":5698.462,"end":5724.254,"text":"那一方面又告訴大家說臺灣不缺電臺灣不缺電又把這一個燃煤機組原本應該要有環保限制的又要拿掉然後要讓它可以長長運轉這個邏輯完全不通啊為什麼不敢清楚的告訴國人我們現在其實在電力調度上就是有困難加上昨天桃園新北有萬戶停電有這麼巧的事情"},{"start":5725.114,"end":5740.441,"text":"就是先限電出現限電危機昨天又有停電的狀況跳電那真的我們整體電力供應沒有問題嗎地震過後當然我們這些機組有些有出現一些損害"},{"start":5741.081,"end":5755.535,"text":"沒有辦法供電但是為什麼經濟部要瞞騙國人一直告訴大家說我們是非常充裕的大家不用怕都不會不會有限電也不會缺電也不會跳電結果背後可能就是個謊言啊你們這麼捉襟見肘"},{"start":5758.49,"end":5758.77,"text":"我們再來看一點"},{"start":5772.185,"end":5794.499,"text":"準格奎告訴大家什麼他說昨天公布了一個我們新的經濟部部長叫郭志輝他說我們換部長就可以穩定供電是真的嗎當你的能源政策不調整不改變郭志輝有這麼神換了他之後415的情況不會出現怎麼可能"},{"start":5797.403,"end":5817.881,"text":"你現在就是你整個的備轉的不足嘛不足就是不足嘛結果你們都對外說謊欺騙李遠哲講得非常好啊政府都在騙人啊都在騙人你能源政策不調整換部長能保證穩定供電嗎組長你可以代表經濟部長回答嗎可以嗎換部長就可以保證穩定供電來講"},{"start":5820.316,"end":5839.082,"text":"我無法回答這個但是我要報告委員416的確那個是變電所的問題那415是因為那個大潭有跳機的現象所以都有原因都有理由那組長你要跟大家保證說所以台灣其實是供電無雨的"},{"start":5840.428,"end":5866.016,"text":"那我可以跟大家說你還要台積電的柴油發電機火力全開然後核電機組的柴油火力全開這個都是加重了我們的空污你知道嗎然後我們的環境部其實也不管任由你們經濟部隨便反正就說我們電不夠了所以什麼空污的沒有關係啊柴油機組全部上全部都可以火力全開這個就是我們現在看到的情況"},{"start":5867.296,"end":5893.726,"text":"那在這樣的情況底下加重了我們的空污又沒有辦法給人民一個穩定的供電換了一個部長情況就會改觀騙誰啊怎麼可能怎麼可能所以我今天提出這個問題就是我要呼應立院者講的話政府不能再騙人腳踏實地該做的事情到位為什麼經濟部堅持核電不能用呢不能研議呢為什麼"},{"start":5895.285,"end":5915.054,"text":"就是你尚未錯誤的能源配比你就會導致下面三軍無能就是統帥無能類似三軍就是下面這些台電的人一天到晚在掉頭寸苦的是他們基層然後你上面做錯誤的政策就是這樣子現在就是這樣子"},{"start":5916.881,"end":5929.012,"text":"為什麼這個是科學的事情你們要政治成這個為什麼核能不能用要違反世界的潮流莫名其妙到極點台灣是地震這麼多的國家你敢擔保下一次不會再來一個地震嗎然後我們的能源這麼的不穩定那下一步的情況不是更奇怪嗎"},{"start":5938.134,"end":5952.951,"text":"部長你可以講剛剛這個王委員你講台灣地震非常多啊所以就更不應該用核電我們這一次的核一、核二、核三有出現問題嗎是和平那邊出了問題啊可是講王委員的邏輯對那你怎麼知道我下一次的地震不是在"},{"start":5955.574,"end":5975.535,"text":"那其他不是更脆弱嗎?就是因為有你們這些官員就是這麼的愚蠢就是固守這樣子的一個沒守成規沒守成規不是世界的趨勢絕對不是世界的趨勢你知道有多少國家在用核能嗎?"},{"start":5976.195,"end":5991.183,"text":"有阿 因為他們國家的國情跟台灣不一樣 他們通常都是 這個土地也比較大 核廢料處理沒有問題日本跟台灣的國情不一樣嗎 日本有沒有用 日本並沒有很多阿 有在用阿 他們有非核政策嗎 他們之前有"},{"start":5993.836,"end":6011.872,"text":"他們現在沒有啦!因為他們已經得到教訓啦!天然氣非常昂貴啊!所以看看我們的官員若存在這麼沒守成規的一個想法當然我們現在能源政策再換10個部長也是一樣能源政策不調整我再強調一次能源政策不調整換10個部長也一樣"},{"start":6015.168,"end":6034.14,"text":"我覺得我不曉得為什麼蔡政府固墨守成規到如此這般的田地這個是令人非常遺憾的事情接下來這個限塑政策就是部長你的限塑政策根本就是破功內銷量不減反增2050全面限用根本就做不到"},{"start":6035.08,"end":6061.004,"text":"那你怎麼交代?這個部分你們要怎麼交代?我想任何的政策它一定要有一個目標規劃是啊黃委員應該也知道了那我們總不能把目標都定得很低很容易達到我們是要定一些有挑戰性當然我從黃委員講的我們讓環保署升格成環境部就是要鞭策你們給你們更多的資源跟人就是你們要去達到啊是我們來努力"},{"start":6062.545,"end":6087.865,"text":"但是現在大家看到的情況是你們沒有作為啊剛剛前面已經好幾位委員講了就是你們現在的限塑政策看起來好像遇到瓶頸然後不敢再去擴大實施也沒有訂出一個很具體的可以減塑的目標所以沒有成效啊2020一直到現在都還是居高不下有的成效是什麼那就是自己訂的標準太低啊"},{"start":6088.837,"end":6115.843,"text":"對阿,所以王委員我們訂了高一點的標準就是希望我們可以找那個方向來努力那大家要共同來努力啦今天社會支持環保署升格成環境部就是要求你們做出更大的對於環境更大的貢獻再永續再減碳都應該要去達成那這個部分我覺得環境部到目前為止成績不及格沒有達到民眾的期待好謝謝王委員指教謝謝"},{"start":6126.701,"end":6150.236,"text":"好,接下來我們請邱政軍委員發言好,我們一樣有請薛部長好,請薛部長邱文好部長好"},{"start":6152.182,"end":6172.089,"text":"我想請問一下你接任環境部將近8個月了吧?是您自論對於我們環境部的業務是不是非常的熟悉?不敢說這個細節也都很熟悉但是大方向跟一些政策面來講那我想部長您站在這邊您說過的話會負責任嗎?當然負責任"},{"start":6176.872,"end":6199.065,"text":"當然負責的那我請問一下上次我在這邊問您的時候民營電廠有納入收費收取碳費的一個機制這個答覆明顯是跟我們的母法規定不符請問部長是刻意誤導本席還是對業務不熟悉"},{"start":6201.604,"end":6225.432,"text":"跟母法不曉得跟哪一個部分的母法不符合我看到我們的報告裡面是寫說我們的電費是不收取給球員報告根據氣候法裡面的這個規定因為台電他所發的電量大部分都是提供給其他的我看到您的報告就有24家的電力業者他是不用繳費的嗎不用繳碳費的嗎"},{"start":6231.594,"end":6247.287,"text":"哇!這裡的電廠那個要!台電電廠要嗎?對對對對所以台電的不用?是!好!因為這個...部長!看了嘛齁!我們電力業不收碳費這個是母法的規定根據氣候變遷運營法第28條規定是由實際用電者的企業付費而非電力業你上次答詢的是錯誤的對吧?"},{"start":6257.779,"end":6279.554,"text":"假如邱委員認為我的答詢錯誤那就在這邊道歉就把它修改為正確的地方所以嘛你剛剛說你負責任所以我講真的就是說我們官員在這邊答詢的時候我希望你們把你們的業務都能夠更了解不要誤導我們大眾讓我們有這樣的一個所有官員有這種投機的一個心態可以嗎"},{"start":6286.761,"end":6300.971,"text":"我們回到問題本身本席認為台電因為配合政策賠錢經營具有不收碳費的合理性我現在講是碳費民營電廠都是靠台電賺大錢不收碳費岂不是鼓勵他們不用努力減少碳排"},{"start":6314.78,"end":6338.895,"text":"違反公平原則與減碳的目標所以本席再次要求我們環境部與經濟部應該要積極檢討將民營電廠納入碳費的收取對象我為什麼要這樣講就是說雖然是使用者付費那我們民營電廠的電他的發電發了之後是賣給台電的對不對台電是以市價跟他買"},{"start":6341.036,"end":6356.784,"text":"但是台電在轉給其他的用電戶的時候,不一定都是台積電。你懂我意思嗎?因為我算了一下,這個每年大概將近有300億,如果這樣的話他們的利潤多了300億,將近10成。好不好?"},{"start":6369.079,"end":6397.533,"text":"第二個我們除了答詢剛剛的那些錯誤之外這次的書面報告你們也主動地更正了有三頁三處的錯誤最離譜的我看到的是第20頁把111年塑膠容器回收率80%標示成93%這個數字當然你們也改了那我現在講的這部分除了我想請問部長除了這三個之外改過的之外還有其他錯誤嗎"},{"start":6400.391,"end":6418.465,"text":"目前應該還沒有發現那我來跟你講好不好我發現我們的報告內容還有許多錯誤就以第15頁家戶垃圾統計來說竟然出現30處的數據與環境部環境統計查詢網的資料有重大的差距我們看一下圖你們標示像第一個89我們從89年開始4848"},{"start":6427.349,"end":6449.01,"text":"可是你們登記的,網站上登記的是8590年58到105,你們登記58可是網站上查到的是105105應該是回收量的這條線啦不是,這個你們是有兩套的數據嗎?為什麼公布的跟你們這個網站上的不一樣勒?"},{"start":6450.917,"end":6476.942,"text":"這個我請同仁來check一下好不好,跟邱委員講的對,就以你們給我們的PPT嘛,對不對,這是你們的資料嘛對啊,這是我們的數據啊那為什麼會這樣呢?這是我們用...各位同仁報告,我們這是用我們的統計的報表所以你們的統計跟公布的是不一樣的?因為可能有時候在欄位的那個計算上面怎麼算都不對啊,你怎麼挑都不對啊,你跟我講欄位"},{"start":6483.237,"end":6505.943,"text":"錯了我們就承認啦好不好我們不要一直在找理由也不要用這個誤導我們大眾好不好應該要一致啦這邊的資料跟我們網站上的資料要一致我認同所以我希望環境部這邊啦就是說我希望你們螺絲鬆緊好不好光這樣的報告都出現這麼多的錯誤這怎麼跟國人交代OK了解"},{"start":6506.67,"end":6528.21,"text":"那第二個問題就是我們針對這個限塑的政策顧用塑膠袋限制使用的對象實施方式及實施的日期公告這14類之場所請問環境部未來會不會考量增加公有市場攤販集中市場集中場的攤販也要納入事實上那個是重點"},{"start":6529.251,"end":6537.217,"text":"但是因為那個也牽涉到跟民眾的生活息息相關所以那我希望環境部這邊能夠分短中長期來進行違反公告的規定當然也要訂定適當的一個緩衝期不要讓我們的業者跟消費者的反彈特別是傳統市場的這一塊另外對於網際網路零售業包裝減量"},{"start":6557.47,"end":6571.242,"text":"有將博克萊、燦坤等零售業者納入管制,對吧?但零售服務平台業者卻沒有納管例如我們的蝦皮、淘寶這些反而是民眾使用最多的網路購物平台請問這個什麼時候要納入常識規範?"},{"start":6576.297,"end":6584.584,"text":"現在各縣市的政府垃圾的焚化場每次遇到稅修或整改期都會面臨處理量不足,排擠到事業廢棄物請問環境部如何落實可燃性的事業廢棄物分類分流清理"},{"start":6602.219,"end":6623.432,"text":"又如何增加可燃性事業廢棄物的處理量呢?可燃性的事業廢棄物事實上我們一直有用固體再增燃料這一塊在做但是以往的精神事實上是後端的使用之後的空氣品質的管制"},{"start":6624.292,"end":6640.749,"text":"那這些年來我們發現的確會有一些業者這裡面混雜一些東西所以我們現在把它拉到源頭管制我們在SRF這一塊已經要跟歐盟一樣去做產品的分類大概分成五級"},{"start":6642.17,"end":6659.946,"text":"那落實這些廠商他將來要生產SRF製造他除了書面資料之外我們還要到現場去看查然後試車的時候還要再去現場去看所以有一道手續書面審查變成三道手續"},{"start":6660.746,"end":6677.303,"text":"這樣就可以增加可燃性事業廢棄物的處理量嗎?那我只希望加快啦好不好那另外針對我們營建廢棄物的處理我們應該確保分流的管理嘛那請問是否能加強要求工地加裝監視器"},{"start":6678.797,"end":6681.059,"text":"這個已經在做了目前載運廢棄物的車輛都有要求必須全數裝設GPS那為何載運廢土的車輛卻沒有要求要加裝"},{"start":6694.445,"end":6706.09,"text":"給邱委員報告,內政部因為剛剛講到營建廢棄物、剩餘土石方這一塊都是這個內政部這個……你們可以橫向交流嘛,因為他亂到還是影響環境啊,不對嗎?對不對?"},{"start":6709.172,"end":6710.994,"text":"會期務的這一塊還是環境部在主責那最後我再給我們這個建議就是說依照"},{"start":6726.329,"end":6732.758,"text":"聯合國預計2024年完成全球塑膠公約環境部雖持續滾動檢討各項源頭的減量措施逐步減少塑膠使用但應調同步查"},{"start":6742.892,"end":6743.212,"text":"但目前．"},{"start":6762.289,"end":6778.44,"text":"並無獨立回收的管道若混入一般塑膠反而會讓資源回收塑膠類部分會造成困擾沒錯因此我建議針對生物可分解的塑料應規劃使用或回收的一個配套的措施好不好"},{"start":6779.18,"end":6797.816,"text":"好謝謝那最後一個就是我們針對碳費我也提出兩點建議我們降低這個碳費開徵對產業的衝擊政府應明定碳費優惠的費率設定達分級減量的一個目標如應參考耗水費前前三年"},{"start":6799.057,"end":6824.447,"text":"減半徵收以及參考水務費第一年減少50%第二年60%徵收第三年70%徵收第四年80%徵收第五年90%徵收至第五年全額來徵收這是我第一個建議那第二個依國家階段管制目標或政府目標設定產業整體減碳的一個目標並設定逐年"},{"start":6829.552,"end":6848.811,"text":"階段減量目標．達成每年目標者即能適用優惠費率然後減量達一定比例但未達目標者亦設有優惠的一個費率這個是我的建議本期的建議那也希望我們環境部能夠參考好不好好謝謝邱文的建議我們事實上是已經朝著這個方向在做了好謝謝"},{"start":6851.909,"end":6879.35,"text":"好,謝謝邱政軍委員的質詢那等一下陳盈委員發言結束之後休息五分鐘現在請圖全集委員發言好,謝謝主席那麻煩請一下我們的薛部長好,請薛部長好,圖文豪"},{"start":6880.819,"end":6898.671,"text":"學副部長請問一下這個我們一般事業廢棄物減量也就是我們大家講的減少家用垃圾那過去我們向地方政府有推行隨袋徵收也就是民眾去購買專用的垃圾袋才能把這個垃圾丟進垃圾車採取"},{"start":6901.172,"end":6907.302,"text":"以量計價減少垃圾製造量的方式那這一部分我不知道環境部有沒有針對這個政策進行過檢討評估"},{"start":6910.918,"end":6938.56,"text":"跟圖文報告事實上我們有檢討因為臺北市率先來實施根據臺北市的經驗事實上效果也相當好至少可以減少到兩成到三成所以除了現在臺北市新北市也在實施臺中市的石鋼區我們的概念基本上是這樣子分階段分區域來實施所以像桃園也有幾個里我想圖文應該也很了解那我們也很高興看到桃園市的八德區"},{"start":6940.022,"end":6962.197,"text":"規篩區有4個里要來推動所以我們不必再以整個市或者縣因為那個的確太大每個地方因地制宜情況也不一樣那我們就是來鼓勵朝這個方向因為這個終究要走這個方向好 薛部長在這邊跟薛部長報告一下其實他不是只有減少兩成那針對我們去調查這個報告台北市"},{"start":6963.537,"end":6978.685,"text":"從2000年他從最早差不多3000噸20年過去的他是每年逐年下降到現在大概只剩1000噸所以他可以達到減量差不多是可以到達6成那重點"},{"start":6980.1,"end":6995.991,"text":"就是所以這個垃圾隨代徵收有一定相當的效果而且它這個表示這個源頭減量有達到非常大的效果那尤其像我們現在桃園這10年來人口增加幅度非常大"},{"start":6996.711,"end":6999.174,"text":"現在已經到230幾萬人我們從2021年看我們這個一般廢棄物的生產量那個時候是127萬噸到去年一口氣增加到133萬噸而且"},{"start":7012.426,"end":7034.023,"text":"看得出來是成比例一直在增加那目前桃園人也不打算再蓋更多的焚化爐因為民眾對這空氣污染都是非常反對那不願意新建這焚化爐所以源頭減量我覺得這是很重要的不知道我們環境部有沒有針對這個列入重要的政策之一"},{"start":7034.623,"end":7053.455,"text":"是 這個事實上是我們的重要政策之一當然我們考量就是說比較稍微偏鄉的地方在這一塊的實施上有一些挑戰所以我們就是找比較都會化的區域而且當然那個社區或者那個林裡"},{"start":7054.335,"end":7065.051,"text":"他有這個自覺他願意來加入這個行業隨帶徵收那環境部事實上是會給予這個一些這個獎勵的一個措施"},{"start":7067.057,"end":7090.507,"text":"今天會提出主要是因為我們看到這個報告其實大概就是簡單的一句話帶過去所以好像沒有對這個隨帶徵收相當的重視我們希望這個好的政策我們環境部能夠重視也希望能夠盡快針對這個評估推動能夠做出報告盡快把這個好的政策能夠來把它推動"},{"start":7091.323,"end":7114.401,"text":"好謝謝圖文德這個取喜那接下來我們再請部長來看一下我們這個針對大潭電廠這個排放黑煙這個問題其實這個是民眾澄清出來你看一下這個照片3月30號3月底下午3點38分民眾拍攝到這個"},{"start":7117.728,"end":7143.336,"text":"空氣污染這個排放這個黑煙這個照片不知道的還以為是不是發生事故發生火災他這個黑煙非常的濃濃濃的黑煙然後又再到4月15號一樣又民眾又拍到這個排放黑煙非常嚴重那重點是環保局去稽查居然說現場及周邊未見濃煙散布"},{"start":7145.197,"end":7170.898,"text":"而且最主要他這還有發生非常嚴重的巨響打半個小時可是環保局去稽查居然都說沒有所以民眾真的覺得不可思議你看他們都拍下了這些照片這些證據而且我們等一下聽一下我們這個3公里以外鄭榮譽的聲響我先簡單播放一下給大家聽一下"},{"start":7181.398,"end":7181.619,"text":"對這部份"},{"start":7201.278,"end":7227.384,"text":"我想說部長我之前其實我有跟部長提過我們那個桃園觀音喔大潭電廠還有環科園區喔這個空非常非常的嚴重而且你看民眾也捲舉都拍下那麼多照片然後這個這麼大的聲響3公里以外都還錄得這麼清楚那不知道說到底有沒有改善的方法那個我跟圖文報告我們國家環境研究院齁"},{"start":7229.441,"end":7256.38,"text":"現在有發展一個技術透過光學的方式科技的方式去這個針對那個黑煙可以做這個拍照然後來這個分析那裡面到底有沒有這個一些包括毒化物以及是不是排放的PM2.5等等有沒有超標我們來跟因為正好我們國安院也是在這個桃園嘛"},{"start":7257.1,"end":7274.056,"text":"對啊,你剛剛看那個那麼濃的黑煙,你覺得那個空汙它會標準嗎?當然不曉得就是說,它只是,譬如說一個就如我們機車還是汽車,早期的啟動的時候開始會突然是冒一個黑煙,瞬時的啊接下來就沒了,我不曉得它是持續的還是說"},{"start":7274.977,"end":7295.416,"text":"所以我希望環境部也跟地方環保局密切好好的來聯繫一下因為大潭電廠那周邊這些居民他們說如果真的沒辦法改善希望我們能夠提出千春的計畫他說他們已經反映到覺得已經投降了"},{"start":7296.176,"end":7316.574,"text":"而且環保局各單位去都說沒有問題他說你看這反映到他們覺得已經束手無策那我們也知道大潭電廠這7部機組這個排放量就高達933公噸是我們全桃園最大固定的污染源而且他現在馬上8號機組也要投入"},{"start":7316.834,"end":7344.867,"text":"然後桃園大潭電廠也是這個濾狀污染入口的榜首每年達30萬公噸甚至超過我們桃園的煉油廠那真的是不是我知道我們環境部應該有一些科技執法的部分是不是有這個建制完善的空氣黑盒子還是這個監測監控配合這個無人機有沒有辦法把這些問題來做一個徹底的改善"},{"start":7345.401,"end":7365.251,"text":"好,我們來研究看看如何來協助大潭地區這個大潭電廠它排放黑煙的這個問題好不好好,那這部分希望部長能夠協助來解決好,那謝謝部長那我想請一下我們經濟部產業發展署的連署長連署長我請問一下美商科目你應該知道吧"},{"start":7374.98,"end":7377.383,"text":"你知道這個廠吧?那我們這個外國廠他當初要來設廠的時候應該是經過我們經濟部申請登記對不對?"},{"start":7385.353,"end":7407.41,"text":"他如果是外商要來投資要經過我們這邊審查對那我今天要凸顯一下那因為他在我們去年7月28號吳玉錦在4天前跟全場的員工說他們過4天就要來關場也不知道為什麼這麼急匆匆忙忙的要去關場你看他從2023年8月5號說要開始要解雇這員工可是這一連串這中間"},{"start":7414.915,"end":7434.825,"text":"從我們你看這個2023年10月12號防火磚砸死兩人然後後來又這個檢測土壤地下水檢測報告又被開罰15萬後來又因為鹽酸管蟹破裂毒死了上萬條的魚那整個大窟溪都被這個"},{"start":7435.925,"end":7450.375,"text":"被這個鹽酸做嚴重的污染這一連串的問題我想了解說他這個工廠歇業申請書是不是有這個土壤污染檢測報告提供的這個必要才能做這個歇業"},{"start":7451.277,"end":7467.506,"text":"我跟委員報告這是如果是工廠要歇要先跟地方政府提出申請然後根據圖法因為他這個時期沒有要過戶所以沒有如果是他沒有要移轉的時候他這個圖這一塊是還不用先去做一些一些檢測證明"},{"start":7468.467,"end":7488.509,"text":"因為他只有做卸業好那我這一點凸顯一下我上次有來提過這個工廠卸業申請書他針對這個土法規範第9條的工廠他就是說如果不在規範內當然不用提供這個土壤污染檢測報告可是如果有他第二條要規定就要提供"},{"start":7488.949,"end":7503.194,"text":"可是我不知道為什麼要提這個第三條提第三條說你不用提供等到我查到你沒有的時候我再來開罰你我不知道為什麼要給工廠開這個後門不用提供這個報告就同意他先歇業"},{"start":7505.592,"end":7524.689,"text":"這個我要了解一下因為如果說我們已經知道它是已經有土壤污染照理講地方的環保單位就應該要去進行這樣相關的查處啦那因為它這有相關規定是說在什麼條件下要提供檢測報告或什麼條件下不要但是如果已經知道的話我覺得這要處理"},{"start":7525.029,"end":7528.452,"text":"聯署長,我希望你們針對這個工廠歇業申請書去了解一下我們看起來不知道為什麼要開這個後門然後你看這個美商科目造成地方這麼嚴重的影響我們不希望這個外商公司來這邊賺到錢土地賣賣就跑掉我們不希望這RCA的事件"},{"start":7545.745,"end":7569.661,"text":"再度重演這打這個跨國官司這是等於說是不可能的任務而且這個勞民傷財希望我們經濟部在第一時間我們了解完之後再跟委員報告對希望第一時間能夠重視這個問題來把關不要等到問題造成再來亡羊補牢好我們了解完就再跟委員報告好謝謝好謝謝兔委員的質詢接下來我們請王振旭委員進行質詢"},{"start":7584.128,"end":7586.398,"text":"主席好也請薛部長部長請"},{"start":7591.803,"end":7613.78,"text":"好王國仁好徐部長好今天跟您來討論兩個部分因為環境部跟這個整個環境的維護或者是保護環境是非常有關係的那季節性的疾病其實大家也非常的關心也很擔心尤其在登革熱的房子的部分"},{"start":7614.68,"end":7625.255,"text":"第二部分就會跟部長來討論一下限塑推動有沒有碰到什麼瓶頸那我們先看一下這個登革熱的防治的環境清理的部分"},{"start":7626.153,"end":7644.755,"text":"其實過去這8年來蔡總統政府推動了2050近年排放的這些政策落實其實也針對於整個疫情的部分其實也曾經有得到很好的成效"},{"start":7646.357,"end":7670.973,"text":"出來過去8年來其實有很好的成績在2016年到2019年那個時候德國熱的病例每一年只有在1000人以下那到了2020年到2022年甚至是百人以下可是比較可惜去年就開始又進入另外一個高峰期那今年到目前為止已經有205人"},{"start":7672.774,"end":7694.006,"text":"已經被確定它是一般的登革日同時在金門也出現了第一例的病例這個我們非常非常的擔心這一部分我們也看到其實過去這幾年來已經有累積8萬以上的個案在臺灣它如果是首次發生都還好"},{"start":7694.586,"end":7713.877,"text":"萬一是第二次發生登革熱的話事實上它會出現一些出血熱導致這個生命上的一個風險所以我們其實很希望能夠在這部分能夠再多加強那環境部當然也是具有一個很重要的這個主責的一個部門"},{"start":7715.358,"end":7732.192,"text":"其實我們也了解今年到目前為止已經投注了3932萬的預算經費在處理登革熱相關的這些房子這部分真的是非常謝謝環境部在這邊的努力"},{"start":7733.843,"end":7760.498,"text":"我們看到就是各個縣市呢其實都投注了相當多的經費來補助地方政府進行這些相關的工作來防止這個登革日持續的市面這部分真的非常值得肯定那到底高峰期什麼時候會出現當然我們知道現在才初夏嘛所以應該會到8月9月甚至到時候會更高"},{"start":7761.258,"end":7789.51,"text":"那這一部分環境部有做哪一些努力的方向嗎除了我們所看到的這部分以外好 謝謝黃委員事實上黃委員是醫師你對登革日的防治事實上相當的了解那你剛剛提到去年事實上我8月22日上任結果我們9月份就跟陳建仁院長馬上到台南去因為台南那時候情況很嚴重很嚴峻那今年看起來好像搞不好會更"},{"start":7790.45,"end":7811.443,"text":"就是說根據國外的情況巴西還是哪裡他們南美洲發生的那個情況可能會更嚴重所以我們從這個今年二月份就開始跟各縣市環保局來強化這個防治登革熱的經濟措施大概有將近10項那當然不外乎就是整個環境的"},{"start":7811.903,"end":7815.925,"text":"在3月25日至4月12日也辦理登革熱知青大動源的計畫也是同樣跟各地方的環保 其實就是說對環境的"},{"start":7838.419,"end":7838.439,"text":"臺灣現在這種"},{"start":7863.576,"end":7864.256,"text":"現在也都有持續的在關注當中"},{"start":7891.17,"end":7915.507,"text":"好 謝謝部長剛剛的回覆我們看剛剛那一張其實可以發現在2014年到2015年是一個高峰期那中間可能經過大家非常努力的去清理環境那很注重個人在一些生活習慣或者是各方面的改善的確得到非常大的進步那當然過去"},{"start":7916.487,"end":7937.099,"text":"兩三年的疫情期間也因為有相關的保護措施所以這個疫情就顯得相當的控制得非常好可是到去年又變得很嚴重我們很擔心啦擔心像剛剛部長所提到的也許今年也許明年又是另外一個高峰期所以我們必須要有更好的思維來做這個事情"},{"start":7938.419,"end":7958.754,"text":"預算的部分因為可能去年還沒有警覺到今年會這麼嚴重或者去年會這麼嚴重所以其實我們看到這個經費的部分今年編列的是2000萬可是剛剛已經發現用到3900萬那現在還沒有到真正的流行期"},{"start":7959.494,"end":7976.575,"text":"那夏天也容易有梅雨那再過來又是颱風季節相對整個環境的影響可能會更大那這部分這個預算到時候如果真的無法到位或者是無法這麼寬的邊內的話那會有什麼樣的因應措施嗎"},{"start":7977.116,"end":7991.545,"text":"好,給網友們報告就是說假如說到時候這個情況真的很危急而且環境部已經把我們內部可以經費可以這個調動的也已經使用完了我想我們就會跟"},{"start":7992.665,"end":8012.156,"text":"行政院反映我相信主席總書因為這個是很緊急的事件也應該會全力來支持過去的整個運作模式大概是這樣我們先由部里可以調度的經費我們先來使用那假如有需要超出我們當初的規劃那就會向這個行政院來請求"},{"start":8025.608,"end":8038.48,"text":"市長們其實都有很緊密的連結我們看到媒體所刊登出來大部分都是地方政府也很用心的在執行這些登革熱的防制行動那中央部會不曉得在宣導"},{"start":8039.301,"end":8053.179,"text":"的方面有沒有更積極讓全台灣的民眾知道尤其是在高風險的這幾個縣市在透過比較屬於中央層級的這些宣導讓民眾可以更能夠配合"},{"start":8054.008,"end":8072.39,"text":"我想我們是善用各種多元的媒體去做宣導當然譬如說包括去年除了行政院院長也親自去視察我個人也去台南光上任沒多久去台南去年大概就跑了四五次"},{"start":8072.89,"end":8085.899,"text":"我也是親自跟台南市環保局跟民眾來了解也去做對談那希望能夠大家共同提高警戒來共同解決這個並沒有人資深環境清潔的議題我們會持續來努力"},{"start":8089.502,"end":8118.632,"text":"好 那就麻煩部長因為這個對國民的健康還是有很重要的影響那限塑的部分我想早上透過部長的報告也了解非常的努力那電商網購這個包材真的必須要避免過度的包裝這個是非常非常重要那尤其是小型的一公斤以下的這些包裝因為它的重量比值不合格率高到七成"},{"start":8119.432,"end":8145.699,"text":"保護說這個越小的這些在包裝上面它更難避免那這部分有沒有比較好的對策來減少這個小型重量的這些相關的網購商品好請我們大使長來稍微回答一下那我想我們會來持續推動這個循環箱袋那另外就是在法令部分已經有對他們一個包裝比有做一些限制這邊會持續來推動"},{"start":8147.119,"end":8169.04,"text":"好 謝謝那最後就是有關的醫療院所一次性的餐具的使用的部分我們看到就是根據廢棄物清理法第21條的規定裡面公告事項限制使用的對象那個時候以公部門作為一個限塑的對象看到公立醫療院所是需要被要求的"},{"start":8170.121,"end":8174.57,"text":"我們不知道為什麼那時候沒有把大型的私立醫院啊或者是私人機構納進來那這部會有什麼補強措施嗎?"},{"start":8178.336,"end":8205.851,"text":"好謝謝王文提醒這個的確是一個漏洞我覺得好像不太合理因為醫院現在經營也很困難反而這些餐飲醫院裡面的餐飲也是他們大宗收拾的地方所以那一塊反而對所以這個醫院的美食街真的在非自信的餐具的部分當然它同時要涉及到這個感控的問題對我相信透過大家的努力應該可以讓臺灣在環境保護的部分可以更為加強"},{"start":8208.132,"end":8215.558,"text":"好 謝謝王委員好 謝謝王委員接下來我們請陳英委員進行諮詢謝主席麻煩請薛部長還有環境管理署嚴署長跟資源循環署的賴署長"},{"start":8237.413,"end":8243.736,"text":"以上官員請陳委員好部長好今天在你們的簡報第14頁你們有秀出了112年全國廢棄物總量3234萬公噸其中一般廢棄物佔了38%達到了1230萬公噸其中的59.5%的回收利用那這些數據"},{"start":8263.866,"end":8279.947,"text":"跟本席取得一般廢棄物的產生量的統計來看是非常接近的那只是說我不清楚的是說你們為什麼只有提供了112年的資料因為從我取得的資料來看呢"},{"start":8280.527,"end":8282.95,"text":"我國實際上年總量從102年的733萬公噸已經膨脹到112年的1173萬公噸剛好整整增加了六成"},{"start":8296.707,"end":8315.498,"text":"如果看這個平均值我們從102年每人每日生產的0.86公斤來看過了10年每人每日生產的產生了1.38公斤但是一般廢棄物的回收率是從102年的55%提高到112年的57.6%10年只進步了2.6%而已"},{"start":8326.164,"end":8344.952,"text":"本席認為這是一個非常可怕的事實這表示說這10年來我們的一般廢棄物是不斷的在增加那所有的預算資源政策計劃各種的一般廢棄物的減費減量資源回收的作為其實都"},{"start":8345.652,"end":8352.105,"text":"感覺都好像幾乎沒有什麼成效那雖然說我們的一般這個廢棄物呢它的這個焚化佔了37.18%"},{"start":8357.287,"end":8373.877,"text":"那掩埋的部分占1.32%似乎是有待處理了但是說怎麼會在減費減量卻越減越多那10年增加6成即使焚化爐燒的掉那跨線式的清運垃圾去焚化那這個車輛的汽油柴油的燃燒那我們這樣空氣品質不是也會變得不好嗎"},{"start":8387.379,"end":8412.248,"text":"陳委員我可不可以說明一下就是說這裡面的數據會有一點誤導原因是因為我們一般廢棄物你是說我誤導還是你誤導就是說這個結論出來的結果我們提供的數據但是這裡面沒有了解到我們在107年把一般廢棄物定義包括了事業"},{"start":8413.968,"end":8437.193,"text":"對﹑"},{"start":8437.413,"end":8462.594,"text":"所以那一部分有啊,我們的數據裡面那一部分將來是在分母事業廢棄物可是我們今天主席排的是在講那個啊一般廢棄物啊事業廢棄物我們是兩類啦剛剛講的那一張圖你要不要回到原來那一張圖左手邊一千多萬噸的那個是一般廢棄物包括家用嘛齁那右手邊是事業廢棄物啦"},{"start":8464.116,"end":8464.697,"text":"在前面那一張好"},{"start":8473.016,"end":8496.184,"text":"兩千零四萬公噸這個是事業廢棄物嘛那一般廢棄物就左手邊那我剛剛給委員說明的就是說在一百零七年他整個納歸到一般廢棄物的增加的量非常多所以分母就會增加所以當你用那時候的分母去除以我們的回收各方面那那個數值就很小"},{"start":8496.804,"end":8522.029,"text":"或者你可以解釋成說事實上之前假如有把那部分算進去一般廢棄物那之前的所謂的回收率就不會到55啦很容易變成40部長我其實也都每次的質詢我都非常優待您喔都讓你做非常完整的一個表述也沒有給你插話不過回到這個我們問題的本質不管它的分母是大"},{"start":8522.629,"end":8550.844,"text":"或是小我其實想要我最想請教的是如果520之後您留任的話有什麼具體的減量政策給陳委員報告我會把要做的事情提供給新任的部長把我的一些想法跟他分享因為施政還有一貫性沒關係那我問一下嚴署長您的看法是什麼"},{"start":8552.226,"end":8565.316,"text":"你會留下來吧?我會留在學校。好,署長會留,部長要回學校。好,那我問署長你的看法是什麼?福光山好玩嗎?"},{"start":8568.691,"end":8594.228,"text":"報告委員是這樣子那個整個一般社會棄物的部分持續上面我們每年還在做各個縣市的資源回收的評比那這評比的結果會做我們考核跟補助的依據我們是相信這樣子的一個處理方式可以鼓勵大家對於資源回收所以我問的具體減量的政策就是你就是繼續評估這樣子"},{"start":8597.529,"end":8611.175,"text":"所以你到佛光山之後有新的啟發嗎?因為我有拜讀你們的新聞稿,你們到佛光山去,署長非常特別,他的位置旁邊還有專人做的縫茶,現泡現縫"},{"start":8615.989,"end":8619.773,"text":"請問我們這次0403地震後的馬上你隔天就派人到這個花東要去做什麼?就是我們"},{"start":8641.107,"end":8641.387,"text":"臺東你有去嗎?"},{"start":8657.467,"end":8684.924,"text":"台東沒有沒有派人去沒有是這樣子啦我有聽到聽到那個縣府的一些就是大報因為發生剛才發生完大家很忙忙成一團嘛啊你要收廢棄物你可以稍微讓人家喘口氣你再去啊你那個時候人家還要接待你們呢因為你們是長官欸你要去拜訪人家還是你要什麼你會不會看時間"},{"start":8687.026,"end":8701.045,"text":"因為我想這個說這個廢棄物這個應該是比較稍微不是不是第一天在緊急這個黃金時期救災的時候吧好謝謝晨雯的提醒啊好那另外一個觀點搞不好有人也會挑戰說環境部都不動"},{"start":8702.342,"end":8717.782,"text":"對,你的動,你要動的不要讓人家添麻煩,沒有叫你不動,但是如果去人家還要接待的話,因為就有這樣的聲音傳出來,所以我在這裡關心了一下,所以你的方法可能要檢討"},{"start":8719.583,"end":8745.053,"text":"因為今天主席排定這個檢討的題目其實你們準備了很多這個策進的作為當然我們一方面一則喜一則憂喜的就是說環境部是有一些想法而且也讓民眾跟業者從生活中去配合例如說這個旅宿業已經不是提供一次性的衛生用品"},{"start":8745.253,"end":8774.204,"text":"那便利超商也不提供吸管了但是他們還有很多的這個杯子還有杯蓋那個塑膠的杯蓋但是說這樣子所以看起來這個是很有限啦因為看了滿街現在就滿街那個外送員因為人力已經補充了十幾萬了所以這個南來北往的這些外送員封城樸樸的穿梭在這個大街小巷裡面其實他就是代表他一次性的包裝或者塑膠袋他不斷的"},{"start":8774.984,"end":8791.854,"text":"在產生所以讓本席很憂心的就是說現在的做法在推動各項一次性的減量的這個工作那取得效果是非常有限那結果它就越減越多過去10年已經是這樣那未來的10年"},{"start":8792.614,"end":8807.28,"text":"就是說我們是擔心說它增加的可能這個比例上還會有更多所以我們不僅是在這個空污跟水污受到影響那在這個淨零碳排的目標也很難達成那所以就是說那這麼多的經費"},{"start":8809.254,"end":8828.39,"text":"到底這個跟民眾宣導的部分垃圾減量的這個重要性跟這個生活中要怎麼樣的配合就是說大家會覺得說環境部就是當然越來越重要可是離民眾你們到底有跟民眾的距離有沒有越來越近所以我打上這樣的問號因為這個是"},{"start":8830.652,"end":8854.731,"text":"就是說10年這樣增加這樣的乘數它是一個警訊啦那生活的這個小地方因為禁用一次性的耗材嘛那讓民眾就是說大部分民眾會覺得說我已經做了環保其實它還是遠遠不足所以因為你們今天的這個檢報裡面到底哪一項跟民眾有關需要民眾去配合我是"},{"start":8855.956,"end":8870.836,"text":"在那邊研究了老半天感覺上就是不是很緊密的一個連結因為你們都攬到自己的身上也攬到業者的身上嘛這樣很辛苦啊民眾的宣導還是要強強的多分擔一點嘛"},{"start":8871.377,"end":8896.291,"text":"那因為我想要問說對於你們這個你們對於這個產生廢棄物的來源沒有設身處地的溝通告知還有輔導協助民眾一起來減量那這個會有一個情形就是說你們在滋味末節的在那裡一直談禁用跟限用那只是說那民眾隨便一個生活中的一個忽略啦那可能塑膠袋又多了好幾個"},{"start":8898.353,"end":8915.545,"text":"你們在檢討也有看到這個那包括剛剛剛剛前面的委員也有提到就是說那個網購的部分那我提的是外送外帶那這個他像這些增加的這些垃圾你們要怎麼處理剛剛署長有賴署長有講到一點一點點"},{"start":8920.216,"end":8939.248,"text":"好,給委員報告,可以嗎?我可以稍微簡單報告我想源頭簡單蠻重要的啦齁那未來我們要對生產一次性塑膠的這個業者要他們有責任他要付更高的費用那對民眾來講當然就是說在某個程度以價質量然後"},{"start":8941.129,"end":8968.179,"text":"加強宣導那這個習性的改變講到這個宜家質量我就忍不住要講一下我們比如說去使用了塑膠袋他們會著收一塊兩塊甚至有人收到五塊錢可是收了這個錢這個錢好像也沒有繳到政府是放到那個商家自己的口袋啊所以我們接下來就產源的責任就是說你將來生產者"},{"start":8971.381,"end":8988.452,"text":"對嘛,他的成本,他買這麼多塑膠袋他成本可能只有一百塊結果他的一百塊一百個塑膠袋他可以收更多這是變成他變相在賣塑膠賺錢那我在這裡我提供一下我最近的觀察就是某知名這個電商"},{"start":8993.422,"end":9022.062,"text":"他們有提供一個我覺得還不錯的方法因為我之前遇到他們公司的這個高階主管我有反應我說你們的這個包裝實在是多得太誇張了主要的商品還有贈品贈品一點點他就另外再包然後就再送結果每次買一個東西家裡箱子一堆但是現在他們就有提供民眾一個選擇如果你同時訂很多筆"},{"start":9023.463,"end":9035.417,"text":"你願意等你的產品可以他們集中包裝盡量減少那個包裝的時候放在同一個箱子裡那雖然會比較慢到但是你可以退30塊錢"},{"start":9037.672,"end":9054.834,"text":"這個民眾就有一個選擇那我覺得你們可以用一個比較積極的方式你也可以要求你們甚至可以規定電商就是說要求他們要提供一個那個叫做什麼也不是問卷就是民眾的一個回饋我沒有回答問題嗎"},{"start":9056.294,"end":9076.555,"text":"每一次的採購大家填寫有沒有過度包裝這個民眾就可以看到嘛你不要寫別的不是說包裝好不好喔是有沒有過度包裝你就要求要問這一題嘛那你們甚至可以說以剛剛那某知名店商他們提供了民眾這樣的選擇在"},{"start":9078.177,"end":9092.811,"text":"已經有很主動的在做這個垃圾減量的部分那你們可以給他獎勵啊鼓勵多一點電商大家都一起來學習這是一個還不錯的方法嘛所以就是要提醒跟請教就是說"},{"start":9094.132,"end":9114.891,"text":"還有最後提醒的就是說每個人家裡都有很多使用過的手機那到底他們怎麼樣被回收因為這個回收機制跟成效是真的很值得我們去重視那讓民眾就是說遵循而且兼顧到民眾的權益那因為裡面有很多的元件都是可以回收再利用的所以我希望這個部分"},{"start":9115.672,"end":9117.232,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9148.687,"end":9149.649,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9223.965,"end":9224.171,"text":"本集完"},{"start":9480.745,"end":9505.678,"text":"好 我們要繼續開會 請大家回座接下來我們請牛許廷委員進行質詢謝謝主席 這個 薛部長有請好 請部長"},{"start":9508.895,"end":9512.837,"text":"臺北市和新北市採用專用垃圾袋的方式來處理,請問有沒有成效?"},{"start":9534.127,"end":9551.461,"text":"成效很好啊 成效很好對不對 是是是那為什麼部長知不知道為什麼地方我們現在其他地方縣市政府要去試行推動的時候大部分的這個基層民眾聞帶色變不是因為這個垃圾很臭啊是聽到專用垃圾袋的政策啊就非常的緊張好像政府來搶錢一樣這個是老問題啦"},{"start":9553.763,"end":9574.583,"text":"對不對?部長知道這個是嗎?是啊就是大家認為說欸垃圾袋以前不是都免費的嗎?現在還要付因為他說是自行購買但是統一規格之後就由政府來定價嘛就如同我們現在收碳費也是一樣以前說排放碳很正常的但是造成氣候軟化同樣現在塑膠危力很嚴重"},{"start":9575.103,"end":9584.579,"text":"對,所以政策,這個政策要推對不對?是,所以委員應該要支持啦那這個現在啦垃圾、水貸徵收這樣一個政策是中央政策還是地方政策?"},{"start":9586.226,"end":9607.121,"text":"中央定的政策那我們希望地方能夠來配合推動但是不強制因為要因地制宜嘛因為有時候你也了解即使是在不管桃園或其他縣市我覺得今天要花時間討論就是這個原因嘛因為你講是中央政策但是又給它地方因地制宜的時候其實你就會發生現在這樣的狀況"},{"start":9608.502,"end":9636.088,"text":"我們去談專用垃圾在政策期已經十幾年了對不對但實際上真的有做大概也就只有雙倍能夠有一點點成果那推動的時候有很多自然難行的地方所以本席的意見是這樣子喔就是說如果你講這是一個中央的政策那你應該要給地方政府強而有力的支持嘛不管是預算也好、政策宣導也好、技術資源也好甚至部分的強制力也好其實這都是地方政府在執行你中央定地的遊戲規則的時候它需要的武器嘛但目前為止中央給了地方哪些東西"},{"start":9637.444,"end":9658.109,"text":"事實上我們有補助喔,假如他願意去推動,所以像桃園已經有8個里他們來推動,那我們就給他們一些補助啊,就當然誘因啦當然誘因這個我們是希望越大越好,可是環境部本身的支援其實以桃園最近事辦那你又有幾個里就在我本席的選區喔,其實是有成效的"},{"start":9659.81,"end":9680.212,"text":"但是因為你要在擴大實施的時候相對來講就進入政策的深水區嘛就要進入溝通協調以及等等相關的我覺得你要把部分地區的事辦擴大到全市通用的時候其實地方政府第一壓力很大壓力很大的時候面對民眾的質疑本身溝通就很困難如果我們沒有從中央得到強而有力的支持比如說大量預算去那個然後甚至讓比如說有"},{"start":9681.053,"end":9683.054,"text":"牛委員對中央當然趨勢很大但是我必須很坦白的告訴牛委員事實上環境部的預算也不是很多"},{"start":9704.325,"end":9731.286,"text":"所以以一個環境部的預算要來能夠照顧到全台灣的這個各個鄉鎮啊這個縣市是有它的一定挑戰環境部事實上也跟地方蠻多的資源有些事實上譬如說空屋裡面的費用有些也是消耗的還有資源循環的部分如果我們今天的主題是說廢棄物減量的策進作為嘛"},{"start":9731.826,"end":9752.816,"text":"那我想我們的共識是專用垃圾袋的政策是有助於廢棄物減量的嘛那既然它有助於它就其實是一個相對簡單的東西它本來就值得環境部投入資源所以我希望這個環境部去做一個研擬就除了現行的機制之外怎麼來優化讓地方政府更加願意來做這樣子的一個一個政策的這個說明這是第一個第二個是去化的部分啦因為桃園現在進行焚化爐的稅休"},{"start":9755.338,"end":9770.915,"text":"又進入了垃圾危機的一個時代那我相信這樣的東西其實很多縣市或早或晚也都會面對一樣的困境中央從統合全部的廢棄物減量政策的主管機關的角度你覺得怎麼因應這個個別縣市遇到這種去化的問題"},{"start":9771.135,"end":9795.691,"text":"我跟劉文報告桃園的我們已經協助跟盈林跟台北市來討論了本來台北市有幫盈林那我們就希望說盈林是不是有一部分就先讓給桃園因為桃園離台北更近將來這個運送的費用更便宜那等桃園這個整修完了之後將來協助盈林來處理"},{"start":9796.812,"end":9823.914,"text":"這就是本期要講的第二概念就是垃圾去化的區域聯防啦互相之間彼此跑位啦桃園其實處理很多比較難處理的其實我們的技術是比較進步因為我們是產業重鎮嘛那相對兩名聲垃圾相對我們量能就相對不足那當然是歷史共業但我們希望區域聯防機制在建立的時候不是只是說中央是大家拜託然後才協調你應該也有主動積極的角色也就是說就像我們推動專業垃圾政策一樣提供一部分的政策誘因預算補貼"},{"start":9824.574,"end":9850.564,"text":"去鼓勵各個縣市政府去做區域聯訪這樣你環境部也不用說遇到事情再來一件一件喬嘛你平常就有機制鼓勵他們自主的去做溝通的時候也許會比較有幫助好那你剛剛講台北跟雲林嘛因為桃園現在跟基隆跟新北運作的有一點成果那剩下的部分希望喔環境部這邊協助桃園市政府來跟其他縣市來做一下合作用交換的方式喔來降低這個焚化爐稅休的時候垃圾堆積啊對於桃園的衝擊可以嗎"},{"start":9851.664,"end":9852.184,"text":"請政天才委員質詢"},{"start":9880.982,"end":9909.945,"text":"主席各位有請部長好請部長好政委好部長好是這個環境部很重要的就是環境影響評估是那環境影響評估有關這個舒花安這個公務我現在的圖是舒花改了是之前的舒花安這個環評是誰主持"},{"start":9912.427,"end":9931.514,"text":"我們分出省,環民大會的話會部長親自主持那假如出省的話我們次長跟我們那個環保師的師長也都會在場好,這個就要特別請這個我們環境部的所謂的官員來去協助我們看這個我們回顧抒發改"},{"start":9940.303,"end":9963.753,"text":"蘇花改這些路段當時都是先選擇最困難的最不安全的對人民的傷害最大的常常會落實的這些不安全的先做也就是說它是比較困難的當時的選擇是這樣這個蘇花改這個好幾個路段"},{"start":9969.209,"end":9988.863,"text":"那蘇阿改的這個你看看我們按照這個97年蘇阿改11月10號行政院同意他的可行性研究一直到開工兩年多就開工了"},{"start":9989.656,"end":10017.598,"text":"也就是說它在環境影響評估這個部分是很順利的很順利好我們反觀這個這個是整個蘇花安跟蘇花改這個路段這個蠻複雜的這樣看就不太容易看我們看現在的蘇花安我剛剛講了蘇花改已經通車了然後現在還名稱叫蘇花安還有幾個路段要繼續做"},{"start":10020.185,"end":10041.56,"text":"108年12月20日行政院合併蘇花安的可行性研究108年現在已經是113年了這些路當然都是比較好做的而且從過去來看"},{"start":10042.432,"end":10045.974,"text":"蘇花改的路段都沒有怎麼樣現在發生的都在蘇花安的路段所以這個部分這個就是必須要去加速"},{"start":10070.819,"end":10081.204,"text":"因為現在的科技跟環保可以兼顧並行。反而有時候是我常常跟這個環評的這個團體講兼顧的話對環境保護更好"},{"start":10091.679,"end":10094.261,"text":"所以這個部分要特別請部長雖然這個要離開了更要請我們的"},{"start":10121.733,"end":10129.348,"text":"環境部的同仁是怎麼樣去說明怎麼樣去說服這些環評的委員"},{"start":10130.529,"end":10147.492,"text":"可以嗎?給政委員報告我所知道經濟部啊交通部啦抱歉交通部好像這個月底前會送進環境部那環境部已經規劃在五月初還是五月什麼時候就馬上會召開我們會來全力協助我會請這個交通部趕快送去所以要加速完成這個蘇阿安的環評我們回顧"},{"start":10159.517,"end":10186.949,"text":"北迴鐵路那個年代你看看1980的年代這麼花6年就完工了北迴鐵路它是整個路段喔蘇花安、蘇花改的路段喔北迴鐵路當時你看北迴鐵路這一次啊04、03發生大地震"},{"start":10189.002,"end":10189.402,"text":"好,謝謝政委員。謝謝。"},{"start":10220.131,"end":10223.575,"text":"主席,各位大家午安,是不是來請我們薛部長?好,請部長。"},{"start":10245.351,"end":10261.801,"text":"林委員好部長剛才聽說你520之後就你個人意願上並沒有很想要留下來服務是的已經這個也因為我必須做抉擇因為我也已經65歲了所以"},{"start":10262.698,"end":10267.543,"text":"我覺得有點可惜,因為到目前為止,我認為第一個你有專業第二個你跟業者保持的距離還蠻不錯的保持適當的距離而不是太過於親近你知道這個部門最大的問題就是行政部門跟業者搞得太親近了,這個事情就不太好了"},{"start":10283.357,"end":10302.705,"text":"但我覺得你應該是很適任的就是說跟業者保持一定的距離然後又有專業所以其實我們國家的部門我們更期待是你可以留下來這個是題外話但我現在講的是限塑的政策我們看得到一次性的塑膠用品不減反增"},{"start":10304.245,"end":10325.027,"text":"但是我要講幾個數字根據歐盟2021年統計每年大概有500萬到1300萬公噸的塑膠垃圾進入海洋其中一次性的塑膠產品佔了50%以上這是歐盟的那台灣呢?台灣的本土研究你有看到嗎?是"},{"start":10329.602,"end":10350.274,"text":"荒野保護協會他們在2023年荒野保護協會他們進行了穿廢快篩調查計畫他調查了淡水河把淡水河從上游新天溪、大安溪、基隆河到下游淡水河到出海口一共283公里的全河域調查他做成了"},{"start":10350.934,"end":10371.334,"text":"然後在這個調查結果他們發現河岸段垃圾量成長2020到2023年成長高達一倍台灣的環境至少河川塑膠的這個垃圾成長高達一倍而這裡面一次性的飲食廢棄物高達七成"},{"start":10372.967,"end":10396.516,"text":"那他們進一步去比較2020跟2023年這些數據這兩次做的數據他們顯示第一個2020的時候呢每公里就河邊啦每公里平均有73袋的垃圾一袋是14公升所以大概一公里平均有一公噸一公噸的這個垃圾然後到2023年變成156袋大概有2.18噸"},{"start":10402.718,"end":10416.881,"text":"二點一八噸的垃圾增加了一倍然後在這裡面第二這個廢棄物的種類前三名第一個是塑膠瓶罐容器佔28.8%塑膠袋佔24.1%飲料吸管免洗餐具佔了15.3%所以合計總共近七成"},{"start":10427.143,"end":10452.222,"text":"是我們生活當中一次性的飲食廢棄物那此外呢他堆置的地點大概就是河川的下游河道的交會處趕潮段這熱點是什麼呢熱點就是特別集中在幾個重要的地標比如說關渡大橋社址島的基隆河岸還有盧州淡水河沿線的步道就是下游還有這個兩河交會處這樣子"},{"start":10456.005,"end":10460.849,"text":"我們看這個是下游他們去做的調查但從源頭來看,從生產垃圾袋的源頭來看的確也是如此"},{"start":10466.892,"end":10468.813,"text":"從塑膠袋生產的源頭來看這個調查數據徹底的反映了這個真實性經濟部統計處的調查從100年起到現在塑膠袋的生產量、銷售量還有內銷量幾乎也是跟著逐年上升100年的時候塑膠袋生產量是19.3萬公噸"},{"start":10493.969,"end":10495.911,"text":"110年生產量是從19萬變成31.6萬公噸生產幅度高達1.6倍然後100年的時候這個19萬.3公噸裡面它內銷是14.2萬公噸"},{"start":10514.531,"end":10540.066,"text":"然後111年31.6萬公噸裡面內銷使用是20萬公噸所以塑膠袋的內銷銷售量也成長了1.5倍那在這種數據裡面我們覺得是奇怪限塑政策越限越多使用越多啊所以我們都知道100年就是我們限塑政策的起點啊"},{"start":10541.499,"end":10562.327,"text":"然後卻越用越多那部長這個對越用越多限塑政策越限越多結果越用越多這個你有什麼樣的想法和政策上的檢討嗎?給林委員報告這個剛剛林委員的分析非常重要事實上我們過去一段時間我跟我們的資源形成署"},{"start":10563.087,"end":10591.258,"text":"就是密集的在開會應該要從源頭剛剛林委員這個講到的分布事實上有將近70%事實上是我們民眾拋棄的使用過的這些東西一次性對一次性的所以這個反而是一個重點那一次性基本上也要從源頭來去做減量你就是這樣子你很認真我發現你很認真你也掌握啊很認真很累齁"},{"start":10592.938,"end":10617.64,"text":"還好啦很認真很累但是你要掌握一次性的這個消費行為就牽扯到生意喔就要牽扯到商家喔對啊所以這個挑戰度就在這邊很高喔所以你覺得很累你想走了喔沒有沒有沒有沒有人家問你所以你說你不想留著因為認真又正經操守又正經的人其實是不容易的我知道但我現在在這裡是要鼓勵你其實"},{"start":10618.661,"end":10634.329,"text":"最好是繼續留下來為環境努力因為有專業很認真又政經八百的人不跟業者混在一起的人很少我現在要講這一個好我現在不是要講你我要講這個政策"},{"start":10635.269,"end":10642.597,"text":"國家永續會他們為了這個我們自己的為了呼籲這個聯合國永續發展目標訂出了幾個核心目標幾個具體目標我簡單的來講一次性用品有關的指標當時永續會就是訂出來2020年減到每年每人使用400個塑膠袋"},{"start":10658.072,"end":10671.748,"text":"到2030年每個人要每年限制希望能夠有一個具體目標是要達到每年每人使用100個但是這樣的部長這樣的減量目標實際上執行的狀況怎麼樣20年已經到了"},{"start":10681.078,"end":10696.525,"text":"市長有沒有這邊的數據?市長2020年現在撿到幾個?我們現在是每年大概用100億個啦。蛤幾個?每年每年幾個?不是他講的是total100億啦不是"},{"start":10701.429,"end":10720.057,"text":"每年每人2022年計是430個那現在剩下6年就2030年了每人每年要使用100個塑膠袋就這樣子挑戰度很高啊那你這樣的減量目標你的具體的執行政策路徑要怎麼樣做?署長你有沒有更具體的?"},{"start":10722.563,"end":10744.236,"text":"事實上這個給林委員報告這一點就是我們一直這個對於包括傳統市場包括癱瘓包括夜市事實上它是塑膠在使用裡面的在某一個程度可以說是這個漏網之一也不是我們不是啦對啦你知道在那裡你要怎麼做"},{"start":10745.379,"end":10773.449,"text":"這一點我們事實上給一個時間點大概明年我們先預告那未來我想包括以量以價值量好那我你是說你要預告要限塑囉對你講的是攤販喔對攤販跟傳統式的現在還沒有列管的有店面的餐飲業現在是只有這個連鎖啦超商啦連鎖的那個還有文具啦洗衣店飲料洗點麵包只要開花票的"},{"start":10773.749,"end":10801.825,"text":"只要開發票的開始列入了你現在都要列入了早餐店呢?沒有開發票的早餐店呢?早餐店的熱說大宗欸早餐店那個也是一個很頭痛的問題就是跟傳統市場那個一樣那列在下一波大概114年我們希望這個明年這是你個人的看法還是說這個整體的部裡面的政策我們有在談啦有好幾個互換啦那接下來就看看可是你不留下來啊"},{"start":10803.001,"end":10822.657,"text":"我可以提供意見我現在要講這個是因為Consul台灣在2023年他們已經對民眾大家政策不敢推行的主要理由都說啊這個民眾不支持啦到底是民眾不支持還是政策怠惰不敢做誤以為民眾支持那我們要拿出數據啊數據會講話"},{"start":10825.479,"end":10848.786,"text":"2023年看守台灣對民眾進行了購物用塑膠提袋的使用習慣及政策意向問卷調查。調查結果指出有九成八的民眾支持全面禁用一次性的購物用塑膠袋。如果全面限用的話就不得免費提供只是限用而不是禁用喔限用它只是你沒有袋你要再用塑膠袋要買而已喔"},{"start":10850.686,"end":10864.971,"text":"但是是98%同意一次性的那9393的民眾支持塑膠袋收費應該使用於垃圾減量措施及或垃圾費這是民間做的但是官方你們也有做"},{"start":10866.251,"end":10887.019,"text":"環境部所長你知道也有做嗎2018年也針對限塑進行民意調查第一個你們問請問你支不支持政府未來擴大管制所有開發票的店家都不能免費提供購物用塑膠袋且需付錢購買所長你知道你們這個贊成的比例有多高嗎"},{"start":10891.597,"end":10898.354,"text":"我現在講這個是你們做的事實上很高你們自己做的你知道嗎你們不知道好沒關係我告訴你"},{"start":10899.701,"end":10928.115,"text":"高達八成的民眾針對這項政策持肯定的評價而且有近六成五的受訪者認為不是只有針對開發票的應該還要繼續擴大管制業市攤販及市場的塑膠袋使用65%的受訪者認為應該要這樣子然後你們還做了網路調查有七成的受訪者針對這個政策持正面肯定的評價由此可見"},{"start":10928.895,"end":10955.896,"text":"限塑的政策以廣為國人接受而且大多數人都支持以價、質量的方式擴大管制對象減少廢棄物產生而且你們過去就講過你講的沒錯你2018年就講104年開始要全面限用購物用提待2030年要全面禁用本來你們2018年的政策是這樣子而現在不論是亞洲或歐盟包括法國是全面禁用"},{"start":10956.596,"end":10976.958,"text":"在韓國的量販店、超市、大型商場他們不是限塑,他們是禁用英國把購物袋的價格、那個塑膠袋的價格大幅提高所以顯示限塑已經是國際潮流而且人家已經走到禁塑了禁用了那我也是希望部長、環境部應該更勇敢一點"},{"start":10977.95,"end":11006.113,"text":"不要用呼籲的呼籲就不是辦法嘛事實上要拿出真正的政策來我們離上一次的塑膠袋管制的政策已經7年了你們應該檢討第一個要檢討要擴大現用擴大現用然後你說了開發票的要用那我們現在講說擴大現用第二個已經現用的是不是也應該進一步到禁用"},{"start":11009.556,"end":11025.691,"text":"我們還有一個第三個這個政策上的建議就是說擴大使用兩用袋即便是現用的你不要再用買買一個那個就是擴大使用兩用袋你看看守台灣去做說那你拿回家的問民眾拿回家的塑膠袋你做什麼他們說我拿回去裝垃圾"},{"start":11028.473,"end":11054.465,"text":"然後他調查了雙北地區的人他75%的人也是拿回去當垃圾袋使用有可能在雙北裡面他們其實是購買了兩用袋兩用袋回去再當成他本來就要買垃圾袋還可以繼續使用這樣隨袋徵收所以當然擴大使用兩用袋的前提必須是擴大垃圾費隨袋徵收的基礎"},{"start":11055.72,"end":11070.246,"text":"所以兩...限塑政策裡面你擴大使用兩用袋兩袋合一成為非常重要的這個政策配套在雙北是不是應該要這樣...應該強制規範下去可不可以?署長有沒有困難?他已經隨來徵收了嘛但我們如果要限塑政策的塑那必須是兩用袋"},{"start":11082.435,"end":11109.96,"text":"我們現在是給各縣市特別直轄縣市他們找一些示範點先來推雙北已經都是了我們都隨帶徵收了而且隨帶徵收的地區的家戶垃圾的產出的量比隨水徵收的減少一半啦一半啦真的隨帶徵收的垃圾減半然後回收加倍大家都知道是有效的"},{"start":11110.72,"end":11115.884,"text":"而且大家都以為隨隨徵收垃圾買垃圾袋很貴隨隨徵收比較方便事實上隨著垃圾的減量以後隨袋徵收所買的垃圾袋的費用比隨隨徵收時代還更便宜"},{"start":11126.593,"end":11149.647,"text":"因為大部分都回收了那我們現在就叫雙北以外的東西你們都是在地方政府的權限交給地方自行去評估那你們大概就是雙北是隨帶其他都隨水沒有水的地方隨戶按戶徵收但是我現在建議你就是說一般廢棄物清除處理徵收辦法第三條它的規定"},{"start":11151.508,"end":11170.502,"text":"其實是可以處理由中央定政策地方政府覺得選舉到了他不敢不敢但是我們認為說啊其實中央如果再大刀闊斧一點的話為了台灣的環境而且我們沒有那麼多的處理量能永遠都是分化把它分化那麼多的家戶垃圾垃圾要源頭減量"},{"start":11173.524,"end":11193.908,"text":"然後要增加回收然後呢限塑禁用的目的是我們要在源頭減量使用這些塑膠一次性的用品嘛所以要有效的政策有效的政策中央喔現在不敢做了 其實他沒經驗看雙倍來看威樂世代是電到瓶水水蒸熟 收服的錢更加少"},{"start":11202.338,"end":11227.368,"text":"李佳垃圾會減量而且這個國家的廢棄物的管理會更好回收的會更多這個是這樣子最後抱歉給我最後一分鐘半分鐘我講一個農用塑膠膜的問題因為亂象很多而且焚化、掩埋、非法棄置、污染在海邊、海邊的垃圾大部分都農用塑膠膜非常多"},{"start":11229.228,"end":11241.851,"text":"大概就是因為它沾染土壤所以這個人力清洗不容易所以廠商不願意回收我是希望環境部應該去考慮公告為應回收物品因為的確這個量很大對環境衝擊很大然後請責任業者要繳交這個回收清除處理費不管輸入的或製造的責任業者通通要繳錢"},{"start":11255.575,"end":11269.778,"text":"繳錢以後回收就有基金會給付有基金會給付才有意願才會進入一個好的循環這個事情已經到一個很嚴重的地步了知事提到謝謝好謝謝林委員部長你可以留著啦比較正經的人留的比較好啦好謝謝林委員那我們中午不休息等諮詢委員全部發言結束再散會"},{"start":11281.171,"end":11306.492,"text":"現在處理臨時提案總共有三案請一併宣讀臨時提案第一案為落實塑膠廢棄物源頭減量原要求環境部針對目前十四大類不得免費提供購物用塑膠袋對象以及四大類禁止提供內用者塑膠吸管對象嚴理擴大適用範圍之可行性與方案於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":11307.293,"end":11333.555,"text":"提案人委員王玉敏、陳金輝、廖偉翔、盧仙依第二案因4月3日花蓮地震造成數部發電機組故障待完成檢修又逢4月15日大潭等發電機組跳電台電為求穩定供電所以開啟新達電廠第三四號燃煤備用機組為隔日供電已回穩然該日兩部燃煤發電機組之發電量仍各高達500MW以上"},{"start":11335.256,"end":11363.415,"text":"由鑑於環境部於事發當日並無發布任何聲明或指證顯現其與經濟部協同台電處理能源問題時無法充分發揮監督功能並落實空氣污染防治計劃原要求環境部因於本週五前公開說明本次票店危機相關之疏失及策進作為並於兩週內提交書面報告與立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員王育敏、廖偉祥、盧憲一、陳金輝"},{"start":11365.616,"end":11384.832,"text":"第三案除台北市、新北市採取按垃圾量計算外多數直轄市縣市主管機關採取按用水量計算徵收但國人並未知悉兩項政策反映出垃圾處理成本負擔差異也無法達到污染者付費的公平精神請環境部於3個月內參照"},{"start":11386.873,"end":11415.072,"text":"一般廢棄物清除處理費徵收辦法第三條第三項所列清潔處理方式提供各縣市、國人每單位垃圾處理費負擔成本公立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會委員之息並說明目前推動按垃圾量計算徵收所遭遇之困難與改善方案提案人委員林月晴、連署人委員王振旭、陳盈宣讀完畢好請問第一案請問待會有沒有意見"},{"start":11416.598,"end":11417.359,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11439.276,"end":11457.208,"text":"報告委員 這個第二個臨時提案我大概簡單說明一下我們剛剛有查了一下第一個那個新達電廠30號機組到113年的年底才轉為備用所以這個剛剛有大概有做一些建議所以文字呢我們可能建議做一個調整"},{"start":11459.91,"end":11479.62,"text":"後半段的那個本週五公開說明本次條件那個是不是可以刪掉那我們在三個禮拜裡面呢我們提出書面報告給委員會這裡那說明就是在臺能公司發電污染排放情形跟公司品質變化的一個監督作為"},{"start":11481.081,"end":11495.609,"text":"包括事前、事終及事後以及未來臺電公司可能轉為備用機組的監督方式我們把它交代清楚是不是可以改成這樣的一個修正需要到三個禮拜嗎?"},{"start":11496.789,"end":11526.175,"text":"因為我把它弄清楚一點,我可能找台電再把它談清楚那我就要看你們檢討有沒有檢討徹底了三個禮拜要檢討很徹底了目前就是在空氣品質不良的時候他們會有降載降載的情形我們都可以收得到他每一個機組降載的情形你到時候要很清楚的數據提交上來細部文字我們再跟處理這邊再把它酌修一下那再把文字修正完之後再交到"},{"start":11527.363,"end":11553.681,"text":"主席臺好來第三好第三案沒有意見那就通過那好來第二案的修正文字是就是這個版本嗎那你你唸給大家唸給大家聽一下"},{"start":11559.049,"end":11574.76,"text":"臨時提案因4月3日花蓮地震造成樹部發電機組故障待完成檢修月逢4月15日大潭等發電機組跳機臺電為求穩定供電依規定運行興達電廠第3、4號燃煤機組為隔日供電已回穩臺電網站亦顯示該日備轉"},{"start":11588.509,"end":11603.784,"text":"總量率達13.83%臺電理應依符合《高雄市環保局空污防治計畫》規定新達第三四號發電機組運行據點"},{"start":11610.182,"end":11639.041,"text":"好了,後段這邊就刪掉再來第二段就是有鑑於環境部於事發當日並無發布任何聲明或指證且兼其其餘經濟部協同台電處理能源問題時無法充分發揮監督功能並落實空氣暖房之計劃原要求環境部應於三週內提交書面報告於本委員會說明對於台電公司發電"},{"start":11640.602,"end":11659.799,"text":"污染排放及空氣品質變化之監督作為包括事前、事中及事後等作為及未來可能轉為備載機組之監督據點好 那就按修正文字通過好 那"},{"start":11660.854,"end":11671.043,"text":"理事提案處理完畢接下來我們請尤浩尤浩委員不在請黃秀芳委員進行質詢謝謝主席我們請部長好請薛部長"},{"start":11685.254,"end":11712.924,"text":"好黃文好部長好部長我們幾乎每一次提到這個垃圾減量真的我們看到在這幾年當中整個我們雖然我們的回收量也有增加可是我們的垃圾量也是逐年一直在上升那當然有很多面向那我今天我想請教就是說我們的這個資源回收量在這10年當中其實我們也覺得這個好像回收量也"},{"start":11713.464,"end":11729.92,"text":"也做得不錯可是家戶垃圾也是一樣也是這樣子逐年在上升當中尤其是在疫情期間真的是大爆發我想請教就是說我們從一個我們希望說源頭減量"},{"start":11731.682,"end":11746.288,"text":"那源頭減量到底在這幾年當中我們這個源頭減量的這個部分是不是真的有去落實或者是你們是做到什麼樣的這個源頭減量因為我覺得看到這個"},{"start":11747.569,"end":11772.969,"text":"就覺得說應該環境部這邊應該可以做得更多是不是先請部長回應一下謝謝黃委員的關心當然這裡面過去這幾年垃圾量這個數據顯示是一直增加但是這裡面有兩個因素第一個因素是我們在107年事實上針對一般垃圾有改變定義它把事業這個企業"},{"start":11775.331,"end":11803.425,"text":"沿空的消費的那一塊垃圾也歸類到一般這個是第一個那第二個呢就是我們一般的臨時性產生的垃圾比如說有一些大型的活動或者說因為天災水災所造成的環境這些垃圾也都歸到一般的這個垃圾所以過去這些年來你會看到垃圾量持續增加"},{"start":11804.025,"end":11821.25,"text":"但是剛剛黃委員特別提到這個回收量事實上也持續在往上不過我們重點當然還是要在源頭減量那源頭減量就是契合今天的主題就是說我們特別是垃圾裡面在塑膠的這一塊真的是有一點點"},{"start":11822.93,"end":11823.13,"text":"臺灣正好"},{"start":11851.9,"end":11881.015,"text":"又是這些塑膠的進口啦生產是最大宗的地方那我們的民眾習慣上就是已經非常方便的因為塑膠取得太便宜了所以你到傳統市場到夜市到攤販到早餐店幾乎因為這一塊也的確不是早期第一階段我們納管的對象但是他們所產生的塑膠的垃圾市場反而是最大的"},{"start":11881.515,"end":11908.085,"text":"所以我在過去事實上也跟我們的同仁一直在講說我們真的要去做整體的分析那要從源頭的部分來切斷或者來追蹤那我們以前是到限制使用的階段而已還沒有到禁用我們原本的規劃是說2025擴大幾乎全部都要限用2030才禁用但是我個人覺得這個應該要往前"},{"start":11911.606,"end":11929.391,"text":"我覺得有一些我們的目標大概是這樣定的但是我們的做法對象要擴大要趕快擴大部長我想請教就是說其實我們在幾年前我們說未來就是禁用那個塑膠吸管"},{"start":11930.171,"end":11954.293,"text":"但是在前幾年好像真的有非常落實那地方也有很多這個一些廠商他們就去研發一些什麼紫吸管啊或者是甘蔗吸管啊或是各式各樣的那個稻殼的吸管很多那後來好像大家會覺得說好像政府沒有在推動所以這個方面大家就"},{"start":11955.494,"end":11974.063,"text":"應該就變成說不敢再投資下去也不敢這樣子再去也讓我覺得好像這方面我們環境部也對這個好像也沒有特別重視所以剛剛部長講的就是說一方面我們要怎麼樣去達到未來是這個減塑然後限塑減塑"},{"start":11977.805,"end":12002.424,"text":"我覺得說這個應該也是要從這個環境部這邊應該如果說你們有去重視的話其實地方或者是這些業者他們眼睛也很大他也知道說政府現在就是未來的趨勢是這樣子那如果說你們不重視的話其實大家就是用最方便最方便取得的那種樣態來取得就我舉一個最簡單就是說這個吸管"},{"start":12005.086,"end":12005.486,"text":"獲得的塑膠吸管"},{"start":12021.38,"end":12046.49,"text":"更重要就是像這個部長剛剛講的然後那我們也希望就是說這個環境部這邊應該針對這一部分是不是要再再努力然後我覺得因為很多環境要好真的還有努力空間對真的有很大的努力空間另外就是說我們也看到另外一個回收的這個品項就是那個紙容器的部分當然紙容器要回收其實也不是"},{"start":12048.35,"end":12074.459,"text":"那麼容易啦,因為有的紫容器如果像便當盒啊或一些餐盒他可能就是沾了很多這個油啊或者是這個油汙在上面那有很多也有可能就是直接到最後就是一整包就直接投到垃圾桶去也連回收連分類也都沒有分類那我想請教就是說像這樣的一個紫容器環境部有沒有到底有沒有訂定一個什麼樣的一個這個標準就是說"},{"start":12078.06,"end":12102.419,"text":"我們要清洗當然一般我們會去做一些宣導也就是每一樣可以 紙容器可以回收可能就是你至少要清洗過那有的清洗完之後整個還是感覺就油膩膩的就像裝那個臭臭鍋的這種紙容器那洗完之後它還整個表面還是整個油漬還是在上面那有的這個一般的家庭可能看到這個"},{"start":12103.26,"end":12129.536,"text":"也許他就直接把它丟到垃圾桶去了我想請教就是說像這樣子各式各樣的紙容器它沾染一些什麼油污那到底要清洗得多乾淨那才方便回收事實上這個細節的部分我待會請我們代署長來談說紙容器回收之前要全處理要怎麼樣那我針對紙容器的這一塊事實上紙容器這一塊製造商很多都是從小這個"},{"start":12131.897,"end":12135.438,"text":"但是我們發現說這個進口的這個白紙板啊相關的做這個紙餐劑的反而事實上量很多"},{"start":12154.366,"end":12177.64,"text":"所以這裡面就感覺上是有一個漏洞那所以我們現在積極要做的就是所謂沿途管理那從進口的這一方來進行才能夠做沿途管理我們以前是製造跟輸入業者那這一塊就反而這個辣掉這個進口所以我們沒有辦法全部來掌控"},{"start":12178.16,"end":12206.377,"text":"那個部長你剛剛講這個我就想希望就是說源頭去管制那當然我們看到台灣一年有超過10萬噸的這個紙容器是沒有列管那當然你們回收基金收到就很少那甚至之前有說我們所有的紙容器上面都會有一個QR code那這個QR code可能也會被亂貼也許這個不是這一家生產的可能那個這個"},{"start":12207.978,"end":12208.859,"text":"我覺得應該從源頭去管制啊"},{"start":12231.441,"end":12253.769,"text":"給黃文文報告進度,我們過去兩個月跟21家業者已經討論如何來進行源頭管控的這一塊基本上蠻多的業者也支持我們的一個想法所以我想這件事應該也會在最近大概那個草案就會出來了我們希望就是黃文文講的源頭管控"},{"start":12255.23,"end":12272.866,"text":"我希望就是說這個紫容器的部分也是不好回收那當然你們講的這個回收基金的部分也這個成效收的這個成效也不好那當然就是說源頭如果源頭亮進來之後那你們應該可以很容易對我就可以知道他留到哪裡"},{"start":12274.968,"end":12296.426,"text":"對對對對對那另外一種就是直接從國外我們前陣子不是看到從大陸那邊從中國那邊直接進口那個容器紙容器直接進來的那這種未來如果他直接銷進來如果說你沒有源頭管控的話其實你也收不到錢啊對不對所以如果你在源頭可以去去收這個回收基金的話我覺得應該對業者來講也好對你們來講也好就是說可以"},{"start":12301.99,"end":12318.237,"text":"從源頭就可以去知道他們到底進多少的量那我覺得這個部長我希望就是說能夠儘速把這個源頭克你們想要收的這個回收基金我覺得應該是可以好好的去處理這個區塊"},{"start":12320.518,"end":12342.645,"text":"謝謝黃委員建議剛剛有委員特別提到這個農磨的部分是因為在之前我有特別提到不論是我們彰化也算是農業大縣那在這個鄉鎮很多他們就會用這個農磨那用完之後可能用一次兩次就可能就沒辦法再用就回收可是回收真的不容易"},{"start":12343.525,"end":12358.659,"text":"所以有的地方是堆置就是堆一堆那我們當然就是說請環境部這邊要去鼓勵回收業者要怎麼去就是盡量盡量去把它回收回來不是讓他們有的就直接丟棄在他們的這個"},{"start":12361.842,"end":12387.652,"text":"這個田的這個旁邊吼那丟棄一堆或者是收到這個一個堆置場其實我覺得這樣都不好那是不是要怎麼樣去做回收給王委員報告吼這一塊事實上我們是跟農業部一起合作環境部這邊已經補助幾個示範場域就是說如何農模回收那一般的農模他上面很多蠻多那個泥土很髒回收事實上吼"},{"start":12388.152,"end":12389.593,"text":"所以你們現在釋放的場域這樣子好不好就是說"},{"start":12404.446,"end":12405.527,"text":"接下來我們請張雅玲委員進行諮詢"},{"start":12443.148,"end":12445.87,"text":"謝謝張偉,我們有請部長好,請薛部長"},{"start":12449.565,"end":12475.498,"text":"好,張委員好部長好我想就是說因為我們現在在講這個我們現在在那個環境統計的查詢面是有看到執行機關的一個資源回收量的數字那其實我們不管是在各個品項橡膠和紙類什麼的品項金屬等等的品項其實我們都回收了非常多的一個數量是好抱歉因為簡報可能還沒有出來那我大概就好謝謝"},{"start":12477.279,"end":12497.838,"text":"它其實都有非常多的數量在增加那我們其實在剛剛部長其實一直在講就是要源頭減塑那我們其實在我們的計畫裡面也有提到這個要減少一次性的產品循環採購要補助地方源頭減量這是我們目前的一些做法但是我事實上我自己目前在這個紙計畫因為不會出現在預算書和決算書"},{"start":12501.421,"end":12528.931,"text":"公開資訊也只有公共政策網路參與平台上面提供的這個無落後情勢所以其實我並不了解計劃的經費是怎麼分配的資訊律師又是怎麼樣那這部分現在是有資料嗎如果有資料的話是不是可以這個禮拜提供給我好我們來提供更詳細的計劃給張委員參考因為我自己會覺得說這個無落後情勢我們是這樣子說但是事實上我自己看了一下"},{"start":12530.611,"end":12555.677,"text":"主計劃的執行率只有76.47%所以我想知道說這個執行率其實並沒有非常高我們剛剛有講無落後情勢這到底是什麼這個原因是什麼有分析過嗎好這個我想我們再提供詳細的數據這個是預算經費而已這是經費面對經費面我們執行到76%一定也是有原因那我們了解這個原因是什麼嗎"},{"start":12557.659,"end":12572.867,"text":"因為這個我們是有補助地方的啦那他有時候會因為採購那所以可能在時間上如果但是整個整年的話我們會來把它執行完成所以現在是地方的是一個時間差聽起來是時間差的關係嗎所以目前我們的執行率是比這個更高是嗎"},{"start":12573.967,"end":12588.475,"text":"最後我們會完成但只是說因為其中在檢討的時候有時候他們會在採購或說是在這個要去委辦的時候會慢一點對所以我所以OK好所以這大概是比較詳細的資料是什麼時候會提供呢我們會那個會後盡快就提供"},{"start":12588.935,"end":12611.348,"text":"接下來就是說因為我們剛剛還有講到這個計畫裡面其實有一個循環經濟的部分我們其實在今年9月就已經要禁用一次性的塑膠飲料杯那其實是源頭減量的一個概念但是我們現在也有在學校做一些公共行政機關也有做一些相關的像免洗餐具、包裝水等等也是有一些作業的指引"},{"start":12612.088,"end":12633.531,"text":"但是我想問其實我們在外面每天買的這些咖啡杯或是飲料杯其實數量也是非常非常的大因為尤其台灣國人在使用這個手搖茶的這個比例其實非常的高那我們剛剛講的是學校還有就是消費者那我們有沒有更好的一個誘因機制來去鼓勵我們的廠商跟店家來去做使用呢"},{"start":12633.851,"end":12653.282,"text":"因為我自己會覺得如果我們沒有這些誘因其實就一直維持在之前那樣子的機制其實是沒有辦法去真正做到源頭減量給張委員報告事實上這些循環杯的使用我們跟包括這個便利超商等等機構事實上都有"},{"start":12653.982,"end":12655.723,"text":"當然是自帶自的杯子是最方便的"},{"start":12683.573,"end":12706.11,"text":"但是以我自己在就往立法院附近其實便利商店就沒有提供循環杯嘛所以我們現在因為聽起來好像並不是全面的跟所有便利商店來合作所以我們是因為這其實是一個非常大的量那你當然講說後面這乾淨的機制是另外一件事情也必須要去做一些溝通跟宣傳的但是我們在這個布點量的布點上面是不是可以有更多呢"},{"start":12706.61,"end":12719.785,"text":"我是有依法跟我們報告我們在那個這些管制的對象是依法請他們按照比例包括每年要逐漸增加這個門市的數量還有那個增加循環的比例那像今年是要達到13%"},{"start":12721.547,"end":12723.888,"text":"OK 把目標拉高一點就對"},{"start":12741.215,"end":12760.42,"text":"對我們可以再積極一點齁然後再來就是說最後一個就是說我們現在其實有很多的政策計畫都沒有公開檔案欸好那這個都也可以告訴我們到底如果其實有在做事嘛我們就好好的把這些資訊提供出來那好不好真的會不會也了解一下讓這些資訊可以讓更多人可以讓我們可以取得好不好謝謝"},{"start":12762.381,"end":12771.863,"text":"好謝謝張委員好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前委員不在請洪森漢委員質詢請薛部長好請薛部長"},{"start":12792.877,"end":12813.985,"text":"王委員好部長今天是環境部的這個限塑的專案所以我其實也來想跟環境部討論一下關於廢棄物的這個問題部長其實這幾年我們在新聞媒體上面看到很多這些SRF的新聞包括各縣市其實發生的爭議部長應該都清楚嘛對不對是有所了解"},{"start":12814.81,"end":12830.198,"text":"部長你看一下齁其實這個我記得從我進立法院剛開始我其實就聽到當時還是環保署齁其實在每一次討論到廢棄物的報告裡面大概都我覺得都蠻大力的在說"},{"start":12831.294,"end":12856.545,"text":"我們要推動這個SRF的這個技術然後也包括跟廠商也包括研發什麼我其實真的我記得每次我們在在衛環委員會裡面討論廢棄物的議題的時候都都我都聽到環環保署其實談這事情談很多吼那可是我想問一下現在這個在SRF的這個這個使用上面環境部到底扮演什麼角色看下一張"},{"start":12858.797,"end":12859.197,"text":"下一張但我剛剛問部長"},{"start":12880.75,"end":12896.492,"text":"這個現在在SRF的爭議裡面我們現在最擔心的事情是其實剛才說的製造端等於它是供給端使用端等於是需求端照理來說假如量化來說的話供給端跟需求端"},{"start":12896.994,"end":12917.269,"text":"它應該要有一定程度的對應對不對那它的量的對應其實假如我們的製造端製造一大堆但使用端沒得使用這其實也沒辦法對不對但如果我們的製造端生產很少供給端的發電廠一大堆這也有問題對不對"},{"start":12918.89,"end":12946.123,"text":"那看起來勢必是需要一些總量的調控不管是在供給端或者是在需求端啊現在環保署怎麼做我完全認同所以跟洪委員報告說真的的確這個我去年上任之後我也發現這個問題所以我就有請同仁事實上要去調整以前的一些這個做法因為我們這個經濟學的基本概念嘛共襲的概念一定要出來嘛"},{"start":12947.303,"end":12973.119,"text":"部長可是你看一下上一張是上一張是我們把現在每一個政策工具的環節都列出來看一下齁在製造端的部分其實大概有幾個類型在利用有分公告在利用跟許可在利用跟處理機構基本上公告在利用的部分其實準博是在地方政府許可在利用的部分是經濟部但未來可能會轉成環境部處理機構的部分他的準博權是在地方政府手上"},{"start":12974.279,"end":12996.656,"text":"這是在製造端,好,使用端呢?使用端它的入園許可是地方政府,電源許可是經濟部它的建造或者是後面設置許可都是在這個地方政府其實在這裡面我們幾乎看不到環境部的角色,有啦,剛才講說未來可能許可再利用會從經濟部轉到環境部但許可再利用相比於公告再利用其實是少數阿"},{"start":12998.26,"end":13024.967,"text":"所以在這些環節裡面我們現在看到的狀況是環境部在大推SRF但在真正的管控環節或者是真正的這個政策工具裡面沒有角色啊所以跟黃委員報告這個也是我們現在在這個已經希望能夠把它這個入法就是我們SRF將來要把它當作產品的概念來看的"},{"start":13026.928,"end":13054.205,"text":"接下來就要跟我們一樣分類啦這樣子的話齁你產品從源頭就可以把它分類才不會製造為什麼現在大家對SRF幾乎負面的原因就是因為以前在品質方面前端沒有去管制所以裡面有包括PVC將來使用之後就會產生代號性等等這些問題所以過去累積出來就變成大家對SRF一聽到"},{"start":13055.846,"end":13077.121,"text":"市長,我請問你一個問題,假如今天在桃園生產的SRF利料能不能夠拉到去其他縣市的SRF發電廠去燒,可不可以?應該可以吧,對不對?可以啊,這個它是假如當時...也就是說現在我們在SRF裡面大量的管制工具其實掌握在地方政府手上,這是有問題的嘛"},{"start":13079.332,"end":13097.183,"text":"我其實一定是需要中央來做相對應的調控嘛不管是供給端或需求端嘛可是我在我的機制設計上面沒看到啊所以部長我想要知道經過了去年相關的爭議案件以後我現在在這些機制上面我要怎麼把環境部的角色給放進去"},{"start":13097.543,"end":13100.284,"text":"中央本來該介入啊我沒有辦法只交給地方啊我交給地方就是弄到現在遍地烽火啊"},{"start":13118.093,"end":13130.128,"text":"把整個制度面去做改變就是說回歸到環境部或者以現有的法定規章是地方審查但是中央環境部應該是來協助啦現階段過度啦"},{"start":13132.799,"end":13147.605,"text":"部長再看一下剛剛那張圖我還是要跟大家說在這張圖裡面絕大多數的權責都在地方政府手上我這麼需要中央做一個總量或總體的管控不管是在供給端或需求端的時候"},{"start":13148.405,"end":13172.395,"text":"我沒有一個明確的工具這已經不是說我中央會來協助我中央會來訪視我中央會來現刊可以解決的問題啦事實上謝謝洪文提到這個問題啦現在SRF變成大家詬病在怪的時候真的都怪中央部長部長我要說今天SRF我願意把它視為它就是一個技術技術重點是用得好的話它可以是一個好的"},{"start":13173.015,"end":13175.879,"text":"但現在的問題是我們在整體的機制的設計上面讓大家覺得中央毫無把關的空間"},{"start":13191.616,"end":13191.756,"text":"好,時間到"},{"start":13216.055,"end":13217.076,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":13237.125,"end":13266.681,"text":"時間關係,謝謝。"},{"start":13266.961,"end":13273.243,"text":"好接下來我們請徐欣盈徐欣盈徐欣盈委員不在請蔡易瑜委員質詢謝謝主席那我們是不是有請環境部我們薛部長好請薛部長"},{"start":13292.154,"end":13301.631,"text":"部長,我在上個月有來關心這個今年2月20,也就是農曆春節後這個嘉義市大火的一個後續的狀況。"},{"start":13303.447,"end":13330.808,"text":"那我想請教部長就這一次的加一世大我他後續調查基本上有很多資訊是不足的這個資訊不足來自於說現在改期這個叫做資源回收戰智場那這樣的一個名詞的一個定義叫做資源回收戰智場但是他卻沒有類似像掩埋場或者是類似資源回收場應該要有的一些法令限制有一個叫戰智場"},{"start":13332.689,"end":13361.717,"text":"沒有什麼法令可以管它所以我們在於這一個大火的實際的一個發生怎樣原因都是用猜測的沒有辦法抓到實際的原因所以我想要請教部長的就是說你如果想說公有的一個掩埋場我們基於這一個掩埋場的管理規範它地棒區有目視檢查那掩埋區也有一個再一次的目視檢查然後還有一個落地檢查落地檢查還可以用這個殘缸等道具"},{"start":13362.197,"end":13382.471,"text":"去攪翻廢棄物那至少確定這個廢棄物是合於這個掩埋場可以掩埋的這是一個前提嘛如果有發現這個有不得掩埋的一個廢棄物的時候應該要記錄而且要拍照存證這是一個很重點的但是這樣相關的一些比較嚴謹的規定在於嘉義市的這個資源回收的一個戰事場沒有這樣的規定"},{"start":13392.857,"end":13415.664,"text":"那部長我們針對這件事情有檢討嗎?是,我覺得戰事場因為它是一個算是臨時的啦所以的確我覺得我們法規裡面有沒有我們現在正在檢討,跟我們報告還在檢討,已經一個月了捏已經一個月了就針對個案的部分我們有跟嘉義市談出說他會有一些那個防範措施包括說他要去巡查或者是"},{"start":13418.784,"end":13427.63,"text":"各案的時候說他有一些防護措施他有一些改進那我有把他的改進把它列舉出來來我們再跳到改進的那一頁好不好"},{"start":13428.946,"end":13457.617,"text":"改進的那一頁我們來看一下兩次先用先用這一個這是一百一十二年的就是前年因為我說改進這個戰事場它連續連續好幾年都火災而且都是在農曆的春節後然後每次火災的範圍很大因為大家裡面都燒燒到乾淨乾淨燒到乾淨乾淨之後可以再放多一點入味這件事已經讓大家很生氣了那你看一下你在前年的這一個火災後"},{"start":13459.497,"end":13471.241,"text":"他的後續的一個結論他主要說我會派保全人員每日上下午巡視場區並且拍照存儲所以看起來他的保全人員只是巡視場區內他並不是說他進場的這一個廢棄物"},{"start":13476.583,"end":13500.421,"text":"都有把它做一個目視檢查或者是落地檢查沒有啊他只是看場區而已這是第一個不合理的地方好那你再看113年火災之後那火災之後他也只是說日宴間安排人員每小時現場巡視一次然後每日安排五趟的一個灑水看起來他也是現場要去那裡看現場而已"},{"start":13503.064,"end":13519.879,"text":"我感覺看現場,現場就是這樣就是本社啊,現場怎麼有什麼重點是他到底把哪些東西丟在那裡吧我覺得重點應該是在這一塊,所以我覺得有一點被搞錯重點然後看起來他們有提出檢討,但是這個檢討咧我無法判斷說明年的春節過後會不會再燒一次"},{"start":13527.687,"end":13538.957,"text":"那他們會來加速他們園區的一個興建那另外這個那個興建沒那麼快啦你知道嘛他是要把一個日燒200萬噸的要把它擴展到450萬噸嘛所以那個"},{"start":13542.18,"end":13560.893,"text":"請見時間沒有那麼快所以這戰事場一定還會持續很長的時間那都沒有任何規範的情況之下那每一次火災那因為東北季風阿所以這個臭味的翁太保翁追雙翁中保來阿我們是遭殃的人看起來嘉義市沒有那麼大的民怨是因為風水沒遭到影響"},{"start":13562.454,"end":13571.597,"text":"所以我覺得這個事情第一個部長就是說到底這個戰事場它的相關的如何確保它不要再發生火災這件事所以有勞環環境部"},{"start":13576.38,"end":13599.054,"text":"有沒有確實嘛對不對他到底哪些東西去佔自那邊這個是一個很大的問題那第二個就是部長你在上次我質詢的時候你有答應過我們就是說類似像這樣的一個焚化爐你看它原本日燒250它現在要擴張到400那你知道這個焚化爐的地點所在就是我們嘉義縣人口最多的"},{"start":13600.576,"end":13616.591,"text":"在嘉義市也是偶爾來它是一個剛還沒有那麼開發的地方我們那裡人口好密集啊所以這一個回饋金他們卻這個焚化爐對我們嘉義縣是沒有任何的回饋這件事我覺得一直是地方的一個碗啊"},{"start":13618.913,"end":13634.666,"text":"啊這種碗就不好明明我們可以協調不要讓這種碗出來因為現在的文化如說實在的啦他們收本收的錢越來越多老實說他們賺很多啦他們真的賺很多啊對電風明明造成了零幣然後都不處理啊那是不好的好不好"},{"start":13635.786,"end":13637.407,"text":"接下來我們請何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳委員不在"},{"start":13664.451,"end":13666.512,"text":"我們請劉建國委員進行質詢。好,有請部長。謝謝主席。好,請部長。好,劉文好。部長好。部長本期在3月14也在這個委員會來請教部長關於紙杯上的"},{"start":13689.389,"end":13718.104,"text":"受加被蓋的這個問題那環境部在4月8日有回文給本辦內容大致上這樣寫我就不再追溯我們看後面第二段的導述第二條反正最後就是回答我說在以循環杯借用系統補足民眾即興消費對於飲料杯使用的需求以逐步減少一次用的飲料杯對環境之影響那就是朝向循環杯我沒有意見因為你提到"},{"start":13718.706,"end":13727.86,"text":"既然不答覆我是這樣,那我就要就這個詢問杯來請教部長。現在所有的詢問杯的杯蓋都是可以回收再利用的嗎?"},{"start":13729.171,"end":13753.237,"text":"還是能有一次性的塑膠?就是一次性的塑膠,對啊所以我們現在就是說思考請這個研發這個包括業者他們去思考取代性的那有業者提出來當然是用紙來取代這個一次性的塑膠的這一塊那紙的這個部分就是跟我們提到那個吸管的概念也是一樣"},{"start":13753.797,"end":13759.342,"text":"當然,假如最後我們真的必須要強制執行的時候我個人覺得可能也是必要但是當然要有一個宣導期的這種概念"},{"start":13776.859,"end":13796.899,"text":"我這邊有個資料也給部長做參考了你看那個循環杯只要使用17次嘛那碳排放就可以小一次杯啦如果循環杯上仍然是一次性的這個塑膠杯蓋必須使用到549次之後這個碳排才會小一次杯啦那每一次的借用就會增加一個嘛"},{"start":13797.299,"end":13812.924,"text":"那就是堆疊上去嘛就549549一直堆疊上去嘛齁所以我才希望說環境部要來正視這樣的問題啦不論是一次性的紙杯或是循環杯既然要減塑齁那就做的徹底一點齁不要留杯蓋還是塑膠"},{"start":13814.083,"end":13836.24,"text":"我想技術上有問題經濟部有在現場這兩部應該大家可以 局長這你也當倒出力吧你們所以到現在都還沒有合作嗎有有有我們其實這我們有在研發了你們有在研發了你都出馬了還研發這麼久因為這個要看那個社會上那個消費習慣"},{"start":13838.349,"end":13866.148,"text":"這個跟社會上消費習慣,現在我們就是政策就是要這樣走嘛,對不對?啊我們就推旋軟杯,然後這個杯蓋一直都是塑膠的,然後就會這樣啊,就會一直堆疊,五四九就堆疊,堆疊一次堆疊一次啊。啊你們兩部共同研究這個,不是好啦,這麼好,多久了啦?好久了,你還知道好久了。好久就要再喝一杯啊。"},{"start":13872.322,"end":13886.54,"text":"跟委員報告我們今年這個循環杯杯蓋已經有用這種重複型的那個使用的那個杯蓋了那比例勒?占比勒?對這個我們再來請葉子來加強所以你沒辦法講出比例嗎?你連占比都不清楚嗎?"},{"start":13887.421,"end":13917.086,"text":"因為剛才開始了一下剛開始?什麼時候開始沒關係嘛,讓我知道一下嘛,讓委員知道一下如果說你用徐環杯,那杯蓋就是要用重複使用這種杯蓋?是,對,什麼時候開始推?今年就開始推了,因為徐環杯的那個量就是我們業者這樣慢慢在拓展我知道你們慢慢在做拓展我們積極來拓展你們在慢,我也沒有意見,因為等一下"},{"start":13918.015,"end":13937.973,"text":"等一下我再講下去你會覺得這個政策會慢到追蹤會往生呢?剛剛有委員特別提到嘛齁說在立院附近沒有半家循環被使用嘛對不對沒有啦我有幫你們做市場調查三家有一家啦"},{"start":13939.07,"end":13945.754,"text":"我們現在112年環境部就要求全台的連鎖超商、速食店提供免費的循環杯借用那循環杯借用是佔比需達5%嗎?對不對?那112年有達5%嗎?沒有?有?確定有?"},{"start":13968.086,"end":13991.978,"text":"好,那113你要達10%嘛對不對?OK好,那確定會達到?會,真的會?那葉子沒有達到會遭受到處罰可能會遭受處罰,是可能還是會遭受處罰?會遭受到處罰,因為這是法令來規定他要達成這個門市的比例那你們會怎麼處罰?你知道比例有多高嗎?"},{"start":13994.309,"end":13994.749,"text":"我講一個背景資料給部長聽"},{"start":14021.108,"end":14034.876,"text":"這個像我的母縣我們是20鄉鎮在全國這個最大的超商西門龍頭雲林縣只有3個鄉鎮4家門市有旋轉杯的租借服務你看全家8鄉鎮有17個星巴克8家門市有2個"},{"start":14038.649,"end":14065.265,"text":"我這麼講還沒有辦法去凸顯這一個占比的比例達到什麼程度那你們所中的資料應該會比我更精準嘛齁那你再看請不可以來看另外一個表這是民間民眾對使用考慮循環杯的調查有意願的比例高達40%啦算蠻高的雖然沒有過半嘛對不對所以這個政策一個推廣中的政策那民眾的意願算是還不錯啦齁但是但是"},{"start":14066.434,"end":14091.443,"text":"提供循環杯的門市如果這麼少你光找循環杯就會讓人家卻步了你這個政策怎麼辦法去達標那另外一點你知道成功借到循環杯之後因為循環杯的每家規格條件都不一樣所以沒辦法統一歸還媒體有報導在都會台北新北的某姓的民眾他們有一家三口"},{"start":14092.554,"end":14116.979,"text":"都在響應我們這個環境部的政策卻因為跨縣市、跨連鎖業的循環杯無法流通家中同時有4款7個循環杯最終因為這個金融半島不依規管不變加上價格、材質等問題而放棄使用循環杯自備環保杯這是近期的報導嗎這是一件事情那另外環境部在去年的9月26號報導中這樣回答"},{"start":14119.642,"end":14142.726,"text":"各家業者有自己清潔物流回收管道由中央來整合不太容易暫時不會考慮統一系統但是如果透過提高價差來吸引消費者業者認為難度高主要因為是賣飲料的利潤不高現行的價差業力已經很大現實裡面還是得考量這個我尊重"},{"start":14143.638,"end":14153.2,"text":"所以重上這結論循環卑視環境部推政策但這個政策的成敗生死好像就隨緣的樣子環境部好像也沒有能力去左右"},{"start":14154.468,"end":14174.269,"text":"中午講我的意思是這樣嗎?對阿,這個劉文我想這個政策或許並不能說如我們所預期的但是總是我們是在面對這個挑戰的時候去找出看看有沒有還合適的方法我覺得也給大家一些時間我們再來"},{"start":14175.41,"end":14198.992,"text":"努力看看,我希望我們這個大家集思廣益,只要劉委員有更好的想法或建議也不定提供給我們參考。好,我一定會想出好話來跟部長建議,部長你在看下一張這個照片。我們想同意過的不行,提高價差性消費者也不行,那衛生要行吧,你看這個循環杯。"},{"start":14201.525,"end":14216.432,"text":"我們還有訂訂齁我們還發信訊稿捏循環杯良好服務指引使用循環杯的借用服務已經達到一致的水準民眾才可能才可以更能安心來借用嘛對不對這是我們發的信訊稿嘛剛剛你看那個照片"},{"start":14218.613,"end":14239.841,"text":"這怎麼有辦法去安心大家一看到這個大概就不太會想要去用這個也是你知道我今天為什麼剛好章偉排這個案所以我把這個事情提出來因為我覺得這個政策真的是在快快瀕臨那個失敗的邊緣剛才市長講 署長講說有罰對不對確定有罰嗎 罰多少 罰幾家"},{"start":14248.688,"end":14269.947,"text":"目前他們業者都有達到喔都有達到?都有達到?你確定他們都有達到?這個齁來我講給你聽因為時間關係啦齁這是昨天我們助理齁去我們立院附近那三家一家去找出來的你知道要借用這個循環杯驚動到店長出來"},{"start":14274.585,"end":14296.319,"text":"店長一路尋找,尋找到最後倉庫找不到,我不曉得藏在哪裡,最後是在那個收音台底下去找出來啦,很不簡單去找到這個啦,你怎麼在這看一看就對了啦,我還幫你們講喔,復健三家7有一家有啦,就是這一家,真的有找到,但是不太好找。"},{"start":14297.31,"end":14324.375,"text":"找到店長都要出面那我剛剛又用本縣的狀況又分析給你們做參考那11個數字你們都會比我更清楚那我只是講說在立法院這個周遭這麼多行政機關包含台大的校會館也見長很多的民間團體在舉辦相關的會議的活動也就人有這麼多的地方一個7-11只有一家有三家有一家有但是要找出循環杯不簡單"},{"start":14325.814,"end":14351.629,"text":"不簡單,照理講我找的出來7-11應該對我獎勵才對應該是這樣嘛然後另外一點你在看喔你在看全家在看其他的這個超商系統可能在附近我去找7-11其他你們自己去調查嘛應該也很難找的出來啦那如果說你們去年是5%你今年要達到10%"},{"start":14353.274,"end":14355.361,"text":"我覺得那個是很大的挑戰"},{"start":14357.247,"end":14384.903,"text":"這是一點所以我就請部長說這個會期結束前是不是趕快檢討然後看怎麼去做這個政策上的一個修正那另外一點因為你自備環保杯跟循環杯的政策是相互相承所以我才希望循環杯這個政策你不要失敗你看喔環境部在推自備環保杯的政策上在連鎖的飲料店、便利超商、速食店還有這個超級市這個超市民眾自備環保杯都能折扣5元"},{"start":14386.084,"end":14410.767,"text":"也因此民眾自備環保費由過去的6%已經提升到16%嘛,對不對?這很正向嘛,這很正向,那這個是一個成功的政策,那你們要不要擴大辦理?要擴大辦理,就是說諸如連鎖早餐店啦、餐廳啦,他可能店內有提供紅茶啦、綠茶啦、豆漿等等等嘛,對不對?能不能也納入這個自備環保費有折扣的委員的政策?"},{"start":14411.67,"end":14430.266,"text":"我們來考慮我覺得這個因為環保杯是自己的所以他對自己這個東西也比較安心當然就是說隨身攜帶有時候會造成他們一些困擾不過我覺得這個的確是應該是可以推動的方向反而比循環杯感覺上是比較有效"},{"start":14432.425,"end":14461.505,"text":"部長今天打呼我都有點虛虛的齁你看齁主席最後這個連結的啦齁這個不僅自備環保杯啊齁民間在去年自發性的這個外食自備餐盒優惠啦齁這民間自起發起的喔已經有串聯600多家的業者我剛剛進來我看我們環境部也都有這樣響應嘛也都有以身作者啦對不對齁那很奇怪你看立法院一天要吃多少的便當呢只有環境部在做這個事情經濟部有做嗎"},{"start":14464.008,"end":14482.477,"text":"你們這個事情都沒辦法合作你還有辦法合作什麼其他事情所以你們要合作很久嘛連這一個便當餐盒你們就沒辦法合作了連這個便當餐盒環境部就沒辦法跟經濟部跟其他部會合作了所以一天在立法院吃的不是那個"},{"start":14488.377,"end":14489.138,"text":"這個也不對吧?"},{"start":14516.823,"end":14521.997,"text":"你們要想辦法啊。好。對啊。OK。你們這樣繼續把你們環境部這樣做到,很久以後你們環境部也會完蛋了。"},{"start":14524.588,"end":14547.201,"text":"對不對?我們靠五口你是不是?沒有你就經濟部你也靠五口給他啦!國安會你也靠五口給他啦!外交部你也靠五口給他啦!這樣環境部會變成非常的那個位置會變成非常的上位啦!好謝謝劉恩的建議我期待環境部會因為這個政策未來成為我們中央部會的第一大部會啦!"},{"start":14548.422,"end":14551.283,"text":"好 謝謝劉委員好 謝謝劉委員接下來我們請陳冠廷委員質詢你好 我們請部長好 請薛部長"},{"start":14578.424,"end":14588.514,"text":"好,陳委員好。部長好。部長請參考一下這個圖表。那看完這張圖表部長有什麼想法?"},{"start":14590.817,"end":14619.256,"text":"的確我們要減塑了但是也因為疫情的關係這個跟消費行為的改變事實上在塑膠的使用量事實上是往上攀升了是因為部長我是看說他包含疫情期間到疫情之後他都還是有增無減他沒有重回原況的趨勢我想是不是可以簡單說明一下現在到底有什麼樣的對策能夠把這樣子的部分來去減緩"},{"start":14620.818,"end":14642.734,"text":"我們當然是希望從源頭減量因為現在當我們在談論推動很多這個政策面特別是以往從末端現在是要拉到源頭因為源頭也才能夠去追蹤它整體的流向而且源頭也比較好去管控所以包括"},{"start":14643.294,"end":14643.314,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":14660.373,"end":14661.094,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14691.074,"end":14705.91,"text":"政策上當然要去提供一些誘因以誘因為主從法制面要去強制執行我們當然是比較不需要馬上一下就從法制面來推動"},{"start":14711.797,"end":14733.217,"text":"謝謝部長我只是要強調說這個限塑政策這個是2050年的轉型中不可以獲取的一環那我還是希望不要從不要只從消費端從生產端那如果能夠有一些更好的替代產品的話你就不用再強迫性的跟這些消費者在談這些事情他可以從源頭就可以控管"},{"start":14734.017,"end":14761.59,"text":"再來部長我想要簡單來談一下山林塑膠的垃圾那如果從這一張圖來看的話環環協會2019年它公布的數據它是顯現這個限塑政策是對於海洋生態是有正面的的這個注意那這點我們肯定但是在山林間的部分我想自己是嘉義縣山區的立法委員那我想這個部分我們也是希望去做掌握那我們自己也有去做一些淨山的活動那我們自己是看到說"},{"start":14762.811,"end":14777.057,"text":"我自己經濟就撿到很多塑膠的廢物那當然以前淨灘是比較常常出現的活動那接下來淨山也是需要但是現在我們的這個對於山林的掌握程度是怎麼樣"},{"start":14777.962,"end":14795.882,"text":"我這邊跟陳文報告吳恆山林就是我們提倡LNT這個吳恆山林的部分我們的環境部在今年開始推動第二期的上海致敬所以上海致敬的時候整個我們海岸線的垃圾量也從大概"},{"start":14797.188,"end":14797.488,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":14826.65,"end":14831.913,"text":"謝謝主席,主席請一下薛部長好請薛部長"},{"start":14855.063,"end":14871.456,"text":"市長,我們在減塑政策下,雖然使用量下降,但是我這邊在看塑膠袋的內銷量其實是增加的。根據"},{"start":14874.321,"end":14885.091,"text":"環境部提供的資料是這樣子就是我們從20年前開始執行減塑的政策那從2002年的200億個塑膠袋大概減到2022就是20年裡面我們減了一半"},{"start":14893.993,"end":14902.876,"text":"解除一半這個算是一個很好的現象可是呢經濟部的統計卻是這樣子就是說他說臺灣的塑膠袋的內銷量在2022是14萬噸到了2023卻提升到20萬噸也就是說垃圾袋的個數減了50%那"},{"start":14924.757,"end":14951.314,"text":"經濟部的統計塑膠袋的內銷量的重量卻是增加了這個到底問題在哪裡?事實上因為包括我們這個包裝的使用以及在疫情期間大家這個透過外賣啦透過電商等等的各式各樣的活動"},{"start":14952.91,"end":14974.834,"text":"使得我們在塑膠的使用量反而增加可是這個在理論上個數也會增加可是我們的個數在20年裡面是減掉50%的這是一個很好的成績而重量上我不知道到底問題相關聯性是怎麼樣最主要是我們的塑膠量的使用"},{"start":14978.757,"end":15005.738,"text":"對剛剛講的陽文講從200個到100個甚至是92億那個是購物用的塑膠袋但是我們現在經濟部提供的數據是我們整個國內塑膠的使用量真的是太多了包括我們說海洋的廢棄物裡面的儀網等等這些事實上有都是鈕都是塑膠"},{"start":15006.919,"end":15033.475,"text":"當然塑膠是台灣很重要的一個產業我們過去經濟的整個發展事實上這個塑膠產業、化工產業也貢獻很大那我大概知道那就是請部裡面這邊除了塑膠袋的部分以外可以檢塑的面向很多大概都必須要去做"},{"start":15034.635,"end":15047.701,"text":"事實上今年就是聯合國他們要推動全球的一個檢塑公約的擬定而且要實施"},{"start":15049.002,"end":15063.936,"text":"那等他這個草案能夠確定之後我想全世界將來就會風起雲湧跟我們在談檢探的概念幾乎一樣因為現在塑膠各位我們千萬不要輕忽就是說事實上現在塑膠為例"},{"start":15065.777,"end":15088.371,"text":"對環境、對我們人體的健康造成很大的影響了那很多人或許都還不了解這個塑膠微粒它真的會跟我們人體的健康、生活息息相關所以我個人的感覺是減碳正在推那下一個階段應該是減塑會如火如荼的來推動"},{"start":15089.011,"end":15112.2,"text":"因為它的塑膠違例真的對環境、對我們的健康產生太大的影響了這也就是其實我們光是從可能部長剛剛講的概念也漸漸的讓國人接受了所以我們才能夠在20年裡面塑膠袋的就是家戶的使用、個人的使用的部分檢討的成績其實算是不錯"},{"start":15114.397,"end":15141.636,"text":"部長我還有一點時間我們還是要來談一下澎湖的垃圾因為澎湖的垃圾呢佔質量居高不下所以縣長都跑到垃圾場去過了一夜這個是一件很對澎湖來講是一件很嚴肅然後也很重要的事情"},{"start":15143.581,"end":15147.145,"text":"不然大概是這樣子齁 紅樓垃圾掩埋場2022年的佔滯量是9800噸到2024就是今年的4月還"},{"start":15160.109,"end":15166.131,"text":"還有9300噸的廢棄物佔滯在那邊也就是說在這一兩年裡面其實就是佔滯的噸數大概只減了500噸那我這邊有一個數據就是澎湖縣2022年垃圾轉運回台的數量是18000噸"},{"start":15188.376,"end":15205.189,"text":"到了2023反而降到降成一萬一千噸左右也就是說我看到的數據是假如說澎湖可以維持在2022年轉運回台數的一萬八千噸"},{"start":15210.273,"end":15220.139,"text":"我們大概在兩年之內就可以把所有的戰制的垃圾全部處理完畢我不知道為什麼2022可以轉運回台18000噸到了2023反而只剩下11000我跟楊委員報告這個問題我們要現在積極來"},{"start":15232.481,"end":15249.687,"text":"大概現在是嘉義跟高雄市有在協助噴霧處理每天大概每週大概嘉義縣的部分處理了460然後高雄市是140也就是每週可以處理600噸"},{"start":15252.007,"end":15274.017,"text":"我們現在有環境部這邊正好有一些可以掌控來請各縣市來協助的部門我想我也請我們環管署的嚴署長特別針對這一塊來緊述的幫忙澎湖來做垃圾的處理因為澎湖跟金門、馬祖離島的基本上都沒有混化的設備"},{"start":15275.658,"end":15302.996,"text":"那這個優先我們會來考量特別是把那些戰事的看看能不能也順便盡快的把它處理掉部長我其實一直有感受到部裡面跟環環署對噴霧垃圾的處理的重視不過離島確實它有特殊性我不知道是不是嚴署長可以回答一下就是說為什麼2022"},{"start":15305.777,"end":15317.723,"text":"我看到2022的垃圾轉運回來數量已經到了1萬8那到去年反而又降到1萬1到底是打包速度的問題還是本島縣市處理量的問題還是經費的問題"},{"start":15324.122,"end":15339.648,"text":"就經費上面來講沒有問題所有澎湖的轉運費用我們都全額補助每年大概有五千萬左右那會減少的原因最主要是在高雄這個部分它的處理量有減少"},{"start":15341.614,"end":15361.143,"text":"所以在國內部分我們還是盡量幫澎湖這裡來調度其他縣市我們目前正在努力我最後還是講一下因為我們看到2022的垃圾轉運回台的數量其實假如說以這個我還是要講以這樣子的"},{"start":15363.404,"end":15363.824,"text":"我們朝這個目標來努力啦"},{"start":15379.318,"end":15400.954,"text":"好還是請部裡面這邊那個最後還是謝謝部長對於本府離島啊離島其實我今天也原本還有還有一個就是循環循環被使用的也在離島做推廣不過循環就是環保杯的循環在利用的"},{"start":15403.416,"end":15431.456,"text":"的這個問題在澎湖其實在離島推廣的並沒有很好我其他再找時間來做跟你們做探討不過還是要感謝部長對離島環保各包括海底城網剛剛講到的向海致敬等等對在任期中對離島的做出的努力謝謝部長"},{"start":15432.256,"end":15454.532,"text":"好謝謝楊文也謝謝楊文對環境部的一個指導跟支持好謝謝謝謝好謝謝本日會議詢答全部結束委員蘇星泉所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報先來做以下決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆"},{"start":15456.84,"end":15462.247,"text":"委員令要求期限者從其鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":15494.541,"end":15494.764,"text":"本集完"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}