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各位委員 女士先生 各位美女朋友 大家早今天本人應邀教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策 來提出報告並得聆聽委員的著見 深感榮幸那也謝謝委員的"},{"start":1986.683,"end":1992.709,"text":"關心和持續指正和支持。詳細的書面資料也藉由這樣的機會把它整理比較完整,包含這30年來有關在高教這方面的新設、變革生等等的詳細的資料再請委員來詳參。以下我就比較簡要的以口頭來做幾個面向的一個說明。雖然教改從民國683年至今"},{"start":2012.167,"end":2031.872,"text":"已經藉滿30年在這個期間我國高等教育隨著社會變遷進行改革跟發展也面對國際競爭壓力及少子女化趨勢的挑戰那麼主要可以從這幾個面向來思考那民國83年的410教改針對當時教育情境提出主要有四個訴求主張落實小班小校"},{"start":2033.273,"end":2048.554,"text":"廣設高中大學推動教育現代化制定教育基本法來回應民意為了回應民意行政院在83年9月成立了行政院教育改革審議委員會歷經兩年的審議在85年12月提出教育改革總之一報告書針對"},{"start":2050.516,"end":2074.484,"text":"高等教育鬆綁及相關的內容來做簡要說明那麼在大專校院整體規模的概況是一年教改後為提升高等教育數量及教學的數值本部依據行政院教改總之一報告書的建議考量地區需求跟學校分布等因素來許可公司立大專校院新設及升格案那到了92年"},{"start":2076.225,"end":2089.825,"text":"全國教育發展會議後．那一會議的決議．對於深色重研審查．也暫緩受理新申請案．以合理管控高等教育的數量．同時在100年以後．因為受到少子齡化趨勢的影響．"},{"start":2090.566,"end":2098.436,"text":"大專校院的數量因為整併轉型及退場也逐步產生變化整體而言大專校院總數從83年的130所到100年的163所到112年再降為145所"},{"start":2106.721,"end":2132.472,"text":"那有關面對的問題挑戰主要是在少子女化的部分大專校院一年級學生數在111學年度開始減至20人以下主演的遞減117學年度預估會降到最低點是這一波的最低點15.7萬人大專校院面臨招生來源不足影響學校財務調度及教學品質的維持在產業需求的部分因應全球產業發展趨勢產業"},{"start":2134.873,"end":2150.619,"text":"人才需求及科技應用日新月異人才培育也必須配合國家的重點產業發展政策方向及國內產業技術的需求而也面對整個國際更加激烈的競爭這部分依據國防費的估計未來臺灣在2030年"},{"start":2154.1,"end":2181.736,"text":"人力的缺口將會達到40萬人因此目前來除了考量國內的少子女化的部分那積極面對國際來增加更多橋外學生的這部分也是一個非常大的該努力也是一個大的挑戰在因應這樣的一個趨勢跟挑戰教育部在這幾年也特別有針對這方面來做一些因應的對策主要"},{"start":2182.296,"end":2205.638,"text":"在強化技職教育的部分本部透過促進產學聯結合作育才的平臺促進技專校院瞭解產業需求媒合大專校院跟產企合作育才並以產官學共同培育人才的方式推動多項的重點政策包括技職再造第一期第二期的政策以及發展典範科技大學也投入了64.7億"},{"start":2208.56,"end":2226.113,"text":"接續有關優化技職、校園實作環境也投入了80億以及目前積極在持續進行中的建置區域產協人才及技術培育GD也投入了24億以及重新在思考產學攜手合作計畫提出2.0的計畫確實在銜接技高跟大專技專校園之間也有很大的提升"},{"start":2235.94,"end":2246.227,"text":"在擴大招生國際生的部分COVID-19期間外國學生及僑生在這些年雖然疫情嚴峻從這些數據上面可以顯示是有逐年來提升當然因為兩岸的陸方一直沒有同意陸生尤其學會生來臺灣求學所以這些學生幾乎都是在等於境外的學生而不含陸生的人數"},{"start":2265.8,"end":2278.647,"text":"教育部也持續的透過高等教育深耕計畫一起跟二期以及新南向產學國際專班重點產業領域擴大招收橋外港生學生以及外國學生的實施計畫以及跨部會來增進"},{"start":2282.609,"end":2285.23,"text":"在鼓勵大學合併整併的部分從89年到目前總共有11件的大專校院合併案"},{"start":2304.198,"end":2315.11,"text":"本部也是我們大院委員這邊一直持續關心除了幾種模式之外那公私大學之間的可行性那這部分中正大學也提出了相關的這些規劃那目前像臺科大跟華夏"},{"start":2319.916,"end":2319.936,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":2336.469,"end":2345.036,"text":"拉近公私立大學校院大專校院學雜費的部分解免私立大學學生學雜費每學年3.5萬元提出能夠精進就學貸款等相關的配套措施﹐達到落實教育平權管控招生總量﹐本部也採取控管大學招生名額的總量"},{"start":2360.009,"end":2361.79,"text":"主要的政策主要也是希望能夠在面對這樣的少子年化以及產業急速的變化學校的科系這個是一個"},{"start":2380.626,"end":2403.896,"text":"不簡單的事但是也必須要去面對我想這個也是我們採取這樣的一個因應措施那最後也在大院的支持之下那麼私校退場條例在111年來正式的發布實施那這部分也能夠讓不得不退場的學校也有一個比較完善的退場機制能夠"},{"start":2405.737,"end":2406.558,"text":"教育部部長潘文忠"},{"start":2424.617,"end":2440.784,"text":"那麼對於校產的這部分也透過行政院跨部會的平臺能夠讓這些已退場學校的校產可以得到最好的公益的使用那感謝委員關注高等教育發展的議題面對這個內外環境的迅速變化那麼教育部除了所提的這些相關的因應措施那也會隨時的就目前整個環境的變化"},{"start":2450.328,"end":2473.786,"text":"以及區域的需求還有學校這邊的一些建議能夠在既有的基礎之上能夠不斷的再做必要的滾動的修正希望能夠更與時俱進的來面對整個30年教改後那麼我們所面對的一些議題可以做更合適的 適切的一個處理以上報告 敬請各位委員給予本部繼續支持跟指教 謝謝"},{"start":2475.725,"end":2496.07,"text":"好 我們非常謝謝潘部長的口頭報告那我們現在就進行詢答每位初期委員質詢的時間是8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢的時間是為4分鐘發言登記截止的時間是上午10點30分委員如果有臨時提案請在上午10點30分前提出"},{"start":2496.73,"end":2511.797,"text":"並於本委員會的范雲委員質詢結束之後．我們就要開始立即處理．處理提案的時候若提案的委員及聯署委員均不在場．我們原力就不予處理我們現在首先請發言登記第一位的萬美玲委員質詢謝謝謝謝召委我們有請潘文忠部長"},{"start":2524.017,"end":2534.566,"text":"部長早部長,您是中華民國史上任期最長的教育部長在這兩天我們新任的教育部長公布之後您目前的心情如何?非常祝福新任的教育部長我相信以這個未來一定可以讓台灣的教育進步所以就是充滿祝福"},{"start":2549.919,"end":2575.28,"text":"您自己內心的心情呢?無怨以償可以過一點自己想要的生活了嗎?我想七年的時間其實很長不管是功勞苦勞我相信都有但我想請教您在這七年當中您為教育的付出心中可曾有藍綠之分?可曾有過用意識形態下去為我們的教育領域來做服務?"},{"start":2576.701,"end":2578.862,"text":"所以您不曾在戲裡面有一絲用意識形態來做教育很好"},{"start":2595.847,"end":2618.824,"text":"我想我們看到新公佈的教育部長叫做鄭英耀過去他曾經擔任過本土獨派社團臺灣南社的副社長也擔任過民進黨智庫新境界文教基金會的董事大家都知道其實他在政黨意識上面長期以來是非常的清楚既然也擔任過這樣子本土獨派的一個社團"},{"start":2621.426,"end":2640.645,"text":"現在藉著這個教育部長當然會令很多這個教育現場的很多人來擔憂那不曉得現在你即將要在520要跟他做一個交接了那這個交接的清單有沒有什麼重點然後你有沒有什麼要叮囑他的以及剛才你有沒有說到在意識形態上你從來過去從來都沒有過在這件事情上你要有沒有打算好好叮嚀他"},{"start":2642.586,"end":2670.197,"text":"謝謝委員關心我想新內閣的組成我們應該給予祝福跟尊重我相信也都是新的葛奎新的總統有做過詳細的評估那在業務的移交部分我想那就是教育的事務這方面我一定會跟同仁把現在做到還有像委員們經常反映的一些問題還要繼續努力的來做好交接工作您覺得他會做得比你好嗎我們祝福祝福他但是應該是不會超越你吧"},{"start":2672.325,"end":2686.644,"text":"這個教育工作一棒接一棒這個沒有所謂好不好只是我們希望能夠真心的為台灣孩子的教育來做努力我想每一個人對教育都是重新出發要為教育好但是我們真的不希望把這個意識形態帶進來"},{"start":2688.286,"end":2713.139,"text":"因為教育是不應該有分的所以我想在交接的過程當中我們也希望部長把您今天說過的沒有用藍綠之分也沒有用意識形態但是教育上有很多很多還要繼續完成延續性的政策能夠好好做一個交接那麼第二個呢也就是今天我們來談這個私校退場的一個問題那我們看到這幾天李遠哲也是過去的教改會的一個召集人他最近出書了"},{"start":2714.86,"end":2737.618,"text":"其中一句話很經典說博士滿街跑不是我的錯廣設大學也跟我無關這看起來就是本來此利無銀三百兩突然自己來講這個話可見他就是認為其實教改其實各方的這個撻伐都知道其實它是失敗的那現在我們看到教改來到現在我們可以看到大學文憑的貶值這個學用落差的問題私校退場等等"},{"start":2741.421,"end":2745.925,"text":"您認為在這個30年的教改這廣設大學政策是對的還是錯的?"},{"start":2747.422,"end":2755.127,"text":"跟委員報告30年前有當時的時空確實在今天的資料我為什麼詳細的把它整理也是希望讓委員一併的來參考那當時我自己認教過真的是大班大校那當時的時空去思考這個問題一定是必要到今天我們真的回到比較小班小校那當時受高等教育的機會也確實比較不足所以呢當時我想委員公都知道我們大概只有20幾%的入學率"},{"start":2775.28,"end":2798.857,"text":"我想部長我能夠認同您說有當時的時空背景但是呢我們必須要講當時有當時的時空背景但是教育政策絕對不是短視就在當時那個時候我們就決定了這麼長遠的事情所以我覺得當然您今天已經要卸任了我是希望其實下一任的教育部長或者是任何一個還在教育部服務的這些同仁我們在制定任何政策的時候政策是延續性的是長遠的絕對沒有當下這件事情"},{"start":2801.278,"end":2823.435,"text":"另外,私校退場以後當然衍生出非常多問題今天本席要跟您討論的也就是學生跟教職員的權益我們看到現在根據教育部的統計大概去年跟今年私校退場條例的學校現在總共有七所河村中州科大台灣首府大學在去年停辦了大概有330位學生有安置到其他學校去就讀今年還有"},{"start":2825.256,"end":2841.579,"text":"大同技術學院環球科技大學明道東方設計大學等4個大學那大概預估這個學生人數還有大概1035人左右那部長我們是不是已經有做好準備要來協助這1000個學生去找到新的學校就讀"},{"start":2844.808,"end":2858.553,"text":"這就是我們當時一定要拜託大院成立通過退場條例因為這當中會有一個非常明確的一個處理的機制包含設立了這個基金那原因就是希望第一個學生就進入學啦"},{"start":2860.393,"end":2886.37,"text":"部長我想因為這個條例我們一起修的啦所以我們倆都很清楚不用重複我現在只是要問說這個條例出來以後現在還有1000多個學生嘛有沒有把握把他們安置得很好委員這個為什麼教育部會直接進到學校跟學生召開座談會也請學校能夠事先去瞭解學生比較適切合理的需求有沒有把握這一千個學生可以安置得很好我們一定用最大的力量因為從過去也不是一所學校部長我想請教您一下現在我們列為預警的學校還有幾所"},{"start":2891.256,"end":2897.059,"text":"應該是兩所左右我們現在列為專輔的學校還有幾所?大專校院目前沒有專輔學校我看到兩個問題第一個問題是現在坊間都在講說我們至少還有60個學校會退場但是你現在的資料是"},{"start":2907.364,"end":2907.645,"text":"議員提出的問題"},{"start":2924.206,"end":2944.292,"text":"．．"},{"start":2944.532,"end":2962.726,"text":"第二 學校教職人員722人目前我們是透過高階人力躍升平台及私校獎補助來安置這些老師但是本席看到高階人力躍升平台及私校獎補助的成效都不是很好你能不能簡單說明一下"},{"start":2965.238,"end":2977.985,"text":"剛才委員提到那個學生安置我們會持續的來努力如果我們掌握到的比如預警的學校在安置的過程就不會讓孩子先過去因為這個風險高這是我跟委員報告的原則但你現在這個預警學校只有兩所我是希望部長520之前我希望你再好好地去盤點一次到底還有多少學校可能會觸及到預警跟專輔這個線那把這個數據要交出來那不要這樣粉飾太平交給下一個部長然後未報待以後就不好"},{"start":2993.953,"end":2994.093,"text":"主席"},{"start":3023.933,"end":3024.413,"text":"10位10位10位"},{"start":3048.632,"end":3049.372,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3072.525,"end":3089.6,"text":"跟委員報告如果當然為什麼成立基金就是說當他要離退的時候不要讓學校老師都領不到任何憂離憂退的這些相關的資源有基金直接代付代電這個是第一個做法那第二個剛才委員一直關心也是教育部當然這個我說難度蠻高因為多數的學校都面對同樣的問題其實這些年是很少學校在擴大"},{"start":3096.506,"end":3100.388,"text":"對嘛 所以部長我跟你說這些退場學校的教職員要進國立學校是非常難的私立學校有很多的自身難保所以問題我們兩間都點出來了希望520你要卸任之前再去思考一下怎麼樣來協助這些退場學校的老師們好不好"},{"start":3114.979,"end":3122.466,"text":"最後10秒鐘可能再多一點點我要跟你討論我們現在大漢技術學院的退場因為我的時間不夠我只能把問題提出來會後跟我回覆一下我們看起來現在大漢其實他學校體質是無餘的可是因為我們私校退場條例非常嚴苛他很擔心他以後的校產會被充公所以現在看起來有一點點惡意用私校法那麼自己就去退場了"},{"start":3140.442,"end":3146.187,"text":"所以我想我們是不是在他申請之後我們還是要去嚴審一下現在到底如果說這個體制是健全的學校用私校法來去退場跟體制不健全的學校被私校退場條例去退場這兩者之間我覺得教育部要嚴格掌控一下尤其是因為你們私校退場條例訂得太嚴苛了那現在會不會"},{"start":3163.281,"end":3181.396,"text":"會不會有學校因為擔心後續他如果變獄警或專輔以後校產完全被沒收所以提早要把校產變私產我希望針對大漢的這個退場的事件怎麼樣保障這個老師跟學生的權益會後針對這個個案能不能看司長來我辦公室跟我做個說明好不好"},{"start":3182.537,"end":3183.217,"text":"接下來我們請侯孟楷委員"},{"start":3214.144,"end":3237.54,"text":"主席謝謝 我們請潘文忠部長委員早部長好 看一下歷史的畫面2016年准教長潘文忠折中人選 跌破教界眼鏡教改派務實派能夠接受我想這是2016年那時候的報導"},{"start":3239.897,"end":3255.334,"text":"現在8年過去了再回頭看那8年前的自己感覺其實長得都還一樣啦還是這8年這個部長的生涯有沒有好像頭髮稍微白了一點是不是其他其實都差不多"},{"start":3257.712,"end":3280.169,"text":"委員這個8年真的很感謝有這樣的機會為教育界服務確實教育的問題有非常多盤根錯節那在能力所及還有跟同仁的一起努力我想我們就逐一只是我想這下還要持續來努力是就是這個最後幾天也可以好好的講一下心路歷程其實說實在話如果說不是"},{"start":3282.035,"end":3302.317,"text":"當初一度因為卡管案跟行政院長意見不合而離開9個月其實說不定您會是蔡英文總統政府任內唯一一位8年做好做滿的部會首長所以既然要離開了要不要說一下說當初為什麼到底是誰的壓力讓你在這中間還有9個月的這個空窗期"},{"start":3303.151,"end":3303.672,"text":"所以來誰的壓力最大?行政院長還是總統?"},{"start":3319.127,"end":3332.134,"text":"委員這個重點是這個議題本身有點錯綜複雜那也在處理的過程確實讓教育有一段長時間是不安騷動的這是我最大的責任所以我當時才會請辭"},{"start":3333.743,"end":3351.275,"text":"所以是你的責任,沒有任何人的壓力,是不是?到目前為止還是這樣子?能夠穩定教育那才是我的責任,如果讓教育一直在波動著,我想教育部長是應該要負起責任,不再管其他的因素了。那看來部長講話那麼圓融可能卸任之後還會另有高用喔?"},{"start":3352.174,"end":3371.884,"text":"我已經很高興的心滿意足謝下公子了沒有再任何的想法部長在最後離開之前除了今天的一個教改議題我先來請教一下今天本席也看到這最近有媒體的報導下一頁這個斑斑有平板變成是輪表面老師變成開機員有沒有看到這個報導沒關係我們直接看內文來"},{"start":3377.126,"end":3395.227,"text":"內文講是說教育部尚未機關去要求各縣市的教育局講是說因應教育部深深擁平板的計畫所以說每個月群組裡面定期報告設備開機率使用率跟上個月的使用率並且請各校校長協助推廣"},{"start":3395.948,"end":3418.459,"text":"那結果就很多人就講是說有反映地線的教育工人的反映了執著在開機率的教育跟學習意義在哪裡校長有沒有什麼樣的福利誘因或權責一定要求授課老師開機使用這些載具那結果得到回應是說拜託啦請校長多擔待啦上面有交代我們下面就要忍耐部長"},{"start":3422.27,"end":3448.402,"text":"針對這個部分我想教育絕對不是做表面功夫我們也希望給孩子更多的好的設備好的環境來督促教育但如果說變成是良益變惡意然後變成是大家就追求那個KPI追求那個開機率那是不是又是一件荒謬的事情我跟委員報告這個其實當時大家都知道數位學習是一個未來的趨勢那教育部在推動這個政策我也跟委員報告其實是逐步的他當時為什麼不是用"},{"start":3449.862,"end":3471.303,"text":"數位學習不是說只是把原本的資料從這個紙本的資料變成是螢幕上的資料這就叫做數位數位學習有包括說遠距教學包括說動態教學包括說模擬教學但是絕對不是去追求這個開機率啊請同學把課本打開跟請同學要打開平板來看一樣的內容"},{"start":3473.064,"end":3499.071,"text":"對我們來講其實把課本打開就很方便啊那為什麼還會出現這樣的狀況部長我點出這樣的問題這是媒體的報導媒體的報導你也講說你沒有看到但是本席就馬上來拿給你看是因為我認為說這個報導做的是非常的詳實它也不是daily的報導它是需要進入到會員付費你才能看得到的報導所以說它相對來說比較詳實是不是能夠請同仁去了解研究為什麼會出現這樣的狀況"},{"start":3500.271,"end":3501.052,"text":"一個禮拜內給教育及文化委員會來做一個回覆這樣可以嗎"},{"start":3530.271,"end":3531.693,"text":"委員在執行面我再來請同仁再進一步瞭解"},{"start":3544.335,"end":3571.286,"text":"教改30年進入今天的一個主題來我們看一下教改大世紀也有媒體來整理那本席今天也就做一個瞭解教改25年的時候當時也有倡議2019年的時候那時候也講到一個很重要的問題到今天也是一樣就是少子化大家都說因為是少子化所以說造成很多的一個問題跟挑戰甚至部長你今天提到的報告第4頁第5頁"},{"start":3574.266,"end":3589.357,"text":"問題挑戰你列了三點少子化產業需求跟國際競爭但是你國際競爭的第一個開宗明義也是講因為少子化所以其實你的問題挑戰大部分就是因為少子化"},{"start":3590.177,"end":3608.767,"text":"那當時在教改的時候也有人講就說其實少子化如果說你沒有看到未來的一個成長趨勢然後你就在當時普設大學的話難免就一定會面臨到後續後繼無人的問題所以30年過去了部長你到底認為說這個教改是成功還是失敗"},{"start":3609.367,"end":3615.855,"text":"我想因為教改有多面向 多面向 綜合評估判斷應該來說如果就我們台灣在整個教育的持續發展然後以比較重視學習主體的這種比較符合教育本質的我想這是很大的進步 包含給家長的一些教育的選擇權"},{"start":3628.971,"end":3640.217,"text":"所以有進步也有做不好的地方也有失敗的地方剛剛委員所提到的這個教育規模夠大但是少子女化又是一個最大的矛盾的地方但是這個時空的變化其實應該是在過程當中需要去做政策的與時調整"},{"start":3645.14,"end":3669.244,"text":"只是剛才我如果從這個數據變化我發現從83年的倡議85年的教改之役後其實在很短的不到10年的時間相關的這些新設升格其實已經大部分都已經完成了這個才是現在我們要去面對少子女化後需要有一些真的比較辛苦的處理所以你剛講得非常好83年的時候來通過來到90年的時候"},{"start":3672.125,"end":3687.845,"text":"就已經升格了77所大學從原本的58所大專院校到90年民國90年的時候135所大學所以說這中間過程裡面突然間短時間內整個膨脹出來這難道不是急救章的一個狀況嗎"},{"start":3689.147,"end":3703.094,"text":"那再來現在大家講說當初教改關鍵人物李遠哲有講到自己又跳出來說教改30年還在談教改是不對的一直追打教改議題因為只是因為他2000年的時候政黨輪替支持民進黨部長能認同這樣的講法嗎我們現在不能去討論或是說反映反省檢討當初30年到底教改為什麼會有這樣的一個決策嗎"},{"start":3715.985,"end":3721.008,"text":"委員我想這個整個教育以時俱進這是必然那幫你今天召委幫我們安排這個也讓教育部也整理了一個脈絡能夠讓委員來參考也作為為後續台灣高等教育在發展的一些參考你今天真的很圓融但是也很圓滑我想請教"},{"start":3734.134,"end":3761.745,"text":"現在我們在討論的是教改的這個私校退場機制啊那剛剛也講到了83年開始之後10年內不到77所的大學全部就跑出來了現在討論的是退場10年內討論的是這個成長10年後30年後討論退場那中間這過程到底30年留下了什麼除了學生有很多人變成白老鼠除了學生有很多人變成是教改下面的一個受害者或說教改下面的一個狀況我們還留下什麼"},{"start":3762.779,"end":3779.267,"text":"能不能具體講一下你認為這30年教改之後到最後留下了什麼對台灣是長久的發展是正向的是有幫助的我跟委員報告我說因為他是多面向那從教育規模這是事實啊因為我自己在基層服務很長的時間尤其是委員我們新北市台北縣"},{"start":3779.867,"end":3808.444,"text":"那人口之多所以當時是我一直把人數調降下來我接國教師長的時候也用了一個五年的計畫把國中調成30人國小調成29人那就是當時的時空因為我當小學老師的時候一班64個人說實話台灣這些年這些教育是有明顯的改變除了少子女化以外即使在對孩子比較從品質上面這些是改變但是剛才委員關注的也是今天我們委員會關注的"},{"start":3809.825,"end":3824.944,"text":"當時把整個高校的規模尤其是升格的這一些確實是出現了原來我們有五專的這種屬於中級技術人才的養成技高的這部分確實在整個變化上是比較大的一個變動"},{"start":3825.945,"end":3851.92,"text":"所以高教的一個部分到底留下什麼我到目前為止還是沒有聽得出來說部長口中講出一個正常的因為我們這些年還是培養出很多特殊人才啊部長那如果說沒有那些高教的話說不定培養可以有更集中的人才不過沒關係部長你回答不出來現在直接要講是說有可能到117年學年會有40所大專倒閉這個是有教團去預估的到底我們現在有沒有推估的數字"},{"start":3852.58,"end":3869.714,"text":"委員現在因為我們是嚴密的在掌握到每個學校的招生財務還有教學品質我想這可能是比較務實因為學校有很多所以我們沒有辦法有推估到底我們未來3年未來短期內有多少的私校還要再尋求退場機制我跟委員報告"},{"start":3870.755,"end":3871.016,"text":"部長最後啊"},{"start":3896.198,"end":3920.612,"text":"有很多的這一些民間人士或是說在之前總統選舉的時候也大家都講了其實教改竟然30年了大家也都認為說教育非常重要它是百年大計那也有呼籲說應該要召開教育國是會議請教部長有沒有建議準教長或者是準總統應該要在他任內來召開全國的教改國是會議教育國是會議"},{"start":3921.212,"end":3921.392,"text":"一日為師 終生為父"},{"start":3942.777,"end":3955.84,"text":"既然您過去長期都在國教體系又是當了7年多的教育部長我覺得對於教育部你也不能說拍拍屁股走人520到了沒什麼事啊所以本席現在講的是說未來"},{"start":3957.412,"end":3978.646,"text":"新任的教育部長上任或說新任的總統上任他總是你會有期待嘛也希望教育部這7年多你活的可以越來越好啊所以當很多的民間人士大家都講啦學會也講啦大家都說應該要真的要召開一個教育國是會議好好的大家來討論各方各面的"},{"start":3981.808,"end":4005.242,"text":"教育這麼多我剛剛跟委員報告是說如果是教育國是會當然不排除我只是說它的形式不是唯一沒有跟你討論到形式只要總統或教育部長願意登高一戶看用什麼樣的情況也可以用平板也可以用遠距也可以大家線上參與也可以召集大家代表性的大家共同來討論但重點是這樣的一個做法要不要做"},{"start":4006.262,"end":4023.77,"text":"廣收社會各界的意見這絕對必要教育部教育的議題不可能是教育部直接去處理是因為本席常常都講就像討論到交通問題我說交通沒有最好只有更好因為每個人都是用路人一樣的道理我也認為說教育沒有最好只有更好"},{"start":4024.17,"end":4025.17,"text":"接下來我們請郭育晴委員"},{"start":4052.692,"end":4081.844,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長委員好部長早安我想就過去我們看到的這些教改的順序跟教改的整個所有的結果那我想少子化其實我們每一次都在提那當時其實我們來看一下就是我們用狗年出生這樣子12年每12年的這個數據我們來看一下那個人口數的部分"},{"start":4082.524,"end":4085.387,"text":"稍指化應該是早在我們當時就應該可以預測到這樣的一個結果對不對"},{"start":4101.293,"end":4125.072,"text":"根本報告其實是有幾個波段83年還不明顯最明顯的是在87年開始也就是可能當時教改包含總之一報告書後其實87年因為我那時候我在地方服務臺北縣這個變化很大所以87年以後是蠻明顯但是也有幾波它是下去又上來龍年當然例外對 它有這樣的一個趨勢但是整體趨勢是下降的"},{"start":4128.174,"end":4155.649,"text":"當時其實我們因為教改就特別說要廣設大學廣設高中那我想當時是因為人口稍微比較穩定所以我們有那樣子的一個想法那再看到我們的幼徒的部分107年其實我們點出來其實蠻明顯的不管是國小、國中、高中級以及大專院校其實從107年之後的新生招生的學校的人數其實這就已經在往下降"},{"start":4156.189,"end":4178.559,"text":"而且是蠻明顯的往下降,您同意吧?委員這個數據它就是一個客觀的事實,同意是,好那當然其實我們也看到了這幾年就是因為我們在整個所有的教改部分的一些問題我個人是覺得在配套的措施等一下我們也請部長來告訴我們一下跟我們反映的一個速度好嗎?"},{"start":4179.499,"end":4205.256,"text":"在廣設大學之後其實我們的大專院校有沒有功過於求我們先來看一下83年度當時我們就以公立大學來說就好了當時是15到了102年相對的來講其實大概就將近快10年的一個時間從15到48其實它的增設成長的比例高於三倍"},{"start":4206.708,"end":4224.202,"text":"這是我們廣設大學再來我們回到剛剛看到從第一頁的右圖107年其實當時我們就已經知道廣設大學但是問題是我們的新生入學的人數其實人數是往下降的您覺得這個問題出在哪裡?"},{"start":4226.744,"end":4247.885,"text":"跟委員報告當時在教改倡議之後其實很多的大學新設啦其實它的數量倒不是那麼多反而是升格啦那升格當中特別是從專科學校就是說原來的技職啦高中就是技高然後升"},{"start":4248.726,"end":4250.807,"text":"提到的這個變化具有在我們目前去看我們產業各方面的需求來看"},{"start":4264.634,"end":4264.654,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":4283.303,"end":4286.646,"text":"我們就以國立大學來說好了就是從108年學年度到112年的這個學年度然後我們的合定新生招生的名額跟實際招生人數的一個名額其實是相對的有一點點落差"},{"start":4303.763,"end":4329.12,"text":"必須說這個落差數字乍看下來其實並不大但是我們用112年的學年度國立大學的部分我們是用所謂的這個師範學院升級的這個大學我們來看一下光是這幾所大學紅字的部分其實他們的缺額大概就是在1到16名之間那除了整併我們的配套措施到底做在哪裡"},{"start":4331.811,"end":4344.918,"text":"公文報告那當然從92年以後就沒有再新設了這個在之前前面委員所質詢的時候我就特別報告過那時候看得出來整體的供應量已經應該是要做一些管控了"},{"start":4347.339,"end":4368.43,"text":"對於這個學校的整併我跟委員報告確實在這幾年這些如果就以國立大學而言我舉一個我自己在服務的這段期間面對高雄科大它總共是三所學校的整併就是當時的高雄這三所包含海事的這幾所跟第一應用"},{"start":4369.37,"end":4392.583,"text":"這整併之後我要跟委員報告他其實當然就學校而言在整體面對競爭跟資源的應用上高雄科技大學即使相較於過去一樣是三所的這些國立的科技技術學院等他其實在整體的發展上量能是更加的足夠我講的是整體"},{"start":4395.204,"end":4398.226,"text":"我想問一下就是部長我們教育希望大家都能夠廣受所謂的高等教育的目的您覺得這個目的應該是在"},{"start":4419.878,"end":4437.231,"text":"希望學生在我們的社會當中其實他們受高等教育之後我們最重要的目的跟宗旨應該是什麼根本報告我想是一年教改當時有200多個教育民間團體我只要問目的是什麼對他們就覺得他們就認為應該因為當時台灣的大學錄取率大概只有20幾%他認為這個部分就台灣整體數值的提升上"},{"start":4446.938,"end":4469.926,"text":"是應該再增加接受高校的機會太好了那也就是說我們為了要彌平我們現階段就是在階級制度上面的流動對不對應該這麼講就是說我們盡量不要M型化我們希望大家能夠普遍的在量能在品質然後在他們整個在求學的一個過程當中其實對於他們來講其實不管是他們的專業也好他們的知識也好都能夠提升是真的為了要避免所謂的"},{"start":4475.868,"end":4497.427,"text":"接近的流動避免M型化的一個狀況我們來看一下這是台灣社會台灣教育社會學研究他們在2015年這個地方他們特別做了一個所謂的報告這個是我們找到已經是最新的了那他的這個整個所有的樣本跟他的比例是用他的父親他的父親是在什麼樣的一個職業類別他的孩子"},{"start":4500.509,"end":4518.581,"text":"進入到所謂的公立一般大學的比例跟人數上面我們來做一個這樣子的一個表我們把紅色的部分框起來我們往下看一下技術體力勞動者跟非技術體力勞動者以及農業從業人員他們進入到所謂的公立大學的比例依舊是偏低的"},{"start":4519.381,"end":4546.724,"text":"所以我們真的有做到剛剛所說的廣設大學能夠讓M型化能夠解密屏嗎?確實就教育部所掌握到的家庭的社經確實會影響孩子在升學的這相關的路徑所以我們有很多強化的措施包含為什麼會去提出有一些像特殊選材或是有一些"},{"start":4547.504,"end":4549.345,"text":"當然在輔助上面我覺得都還可以繼續再加油"},{"start":4575.354,"end":4580.095,"text":"這個速度我想還是有一點點慢跟應變的一個措施我們再往下看一張剛剛有說了大學廣設大學的結果會造成什麼樣的一個狀況呢我們來看一下這張圖表其實高學歷他可以支配他的平均所得很明顯的大概是從2009年因為當時其實因為金融海嘯"},{"start":4599.88,"end":4621.778,"text":"2009年之後其實我們大專畢業生至企業職場實習的方案俗稱22K方案當時的22K方案之後其實你有沒有發現2010年之後連續大概13年以大學學歷的文憑進入到了職場他們的薪資是低於專科的"},{"start":4622.899,"end":4641.509,"text":"您有注意到這個問題嗎?我想410的一個變革跟台灣現在所看到的現象當時台灣在410以前是一個真的叫高等教育就是一個精英教育所以大概只有五分之一的孩子是有機會當然這五分之一也表示他的學業應該就是"},{"start":4643.51,"end":4644.531,"text":"因為絕對不是唯有讀書高這件事情"},{"start":4668.072,"end":4676.314,"text":"整個社會應該要更加的去肯定擁有好的這些技術的專業人才他應該要得到更多的尊重保養待遇我們肯定但我們也要幫助他們但是我們從這張圖表看到我們一般所謂的高等教育升更計劃合併的一個經費我們去補助所謂的公立的大學"},{"start":4688.797,"end":4711.938,"text":"以及一般的所謂的公立的技職還有私立的技職我們看到那個落差之大高達了將近6倍之多剛剛我們話都講得很漂亮我們希望能夠讓很多的所謂的技職的人才也能夠進入到我們的產業可是問題是我們的教育我們的教育部的補助的部分它還是focus在公立的一般的大學裡頭喔"},{"start":4715.481,"end":4733.582,"text":"這個數字我再瞭解一下就我這幾年其實在技職教育的政策跟資源的投資其實是一直在增加當中包含對私立比如以下那個什麼區域產學這個培訓基地裡面有很多也都是私立的學校這些都是外加的"},{"start":4734.102,"end":4735.643,"text":"所以也就是回到我剛剛最初一開始講的我們還是要以學生他們的一個本體"},{"start":4754.15,"end":4754.87,"text":"從今天提的書面資料跟委員報告其實92年"},{"start":4783.463,"end":4810.443,"text":"為什麼當時在全國教育發展會議就提出了這個一定要開始做大學校院數量的管控那就是1010校改後將近10年的時間但是這一些學校一旦成立了就是現在我們必須要去面對當然我們希望其實在520之前我們可能還要把這個部分再更精謹而且更就是更用力的再去做這樣子的一個討論再去做這樣子一個變革才能夠真的"},{"start":4812.685,"end":4814.467,"text":"接下來有請柯智恩召委謝謝謝謝主席 我們請潘部長有請潘部長 謝謝"},{"start":4843.937,"end":4862.871,"text":"張惠豪部長好,我們410交給大優先我們先來檢視一下當年這個30年過去了我們所揭示的這個四大主軸制定教育基本法達到了然後推動教育現代化目前正在進行落實小班小校我必須要說那個真的是因為少子化的結果"},{"start":4863.131,"end":4893.131,"text":"﹗"},{"start":4893.911,"end":4908.437,"text":"這完全是毋庸置疑的學生的壓力有因此降低嗎部長有嗎跟趙委報告啦因為確實家長對孩子的期待都是很高啦只要學校有所謂比較在排"},{"start":4909.558,"end":4931.778,"text":"所以我的意思就是說我知道家長的教育一向就是華人非常重視的快樂學學習沒有所謂的快樂你當時標示的快樂學我告訴你就是安樂死怎麼樣的死法我們來看一下你看吧大學造成這個文憑我想很多委員都已經剛剛已經提出提過了廣設大學我必須要說雖然最近因為是教改30年很多人就開始去問到李遠哲院長那他認為"},{"start":4934.181,"end":4939.671,"text":"說不是滿街跑不是他的問題廣設大學跟他無關我現在只請問部長因為你即將要離開的你認為教改的失敗的部分跟李院長完全一點相關都沒有嗎"},{"start":4946.795,"end":4952.378,"text":"我跟召委報告因為當時教育整個那個教改的那個叫做什麼那個會議其實是相當多當時國內是 非常多的學者專家沒錯 但是部長是這樣沒有錯 這不是我講的你可以講得非常的圓滑因為畢竟你是一個非常寬厚的人這是李登輝前總統講的"},{"start":4972.248,"end":4986.144,"text":"台灣失業率高就是因為教改失敗而李遠澤該為教改負責這是李登輝前總統所講的那你剛剛所特別提到的李院長認為跟他無關但是就像你剛剛所提到的事實會說話2002年他主持全國的教育發展會議裡面"},{"start":4987.185,"end":5009.908,"text":"公開主張要廣設大學然後呢在這個我們最重要的一個921的教改諮詢成立當中呢他主持會議非常多學者專家可能都呼應他的說法但是他一言九鼎那時候的高中比比率就是認為應該從3比7提高到現在的9比1而且甚至要取消比例限制而且要把專科改為科技大學這都是"},{"start":5010.689,"end":5029.504,"text":"完全在資料上裏面這就造成我們今天廣設大學最大的緣故而且我必須要說廣設大學造成M型化更加嚴重所以部長你不要告訴我因為這樣可以讓更多學生考試壓力解除可以讓大家進行的更到目前為止沒有所以我還是認為雖然沒有辦法完全歸咎於李遠哲部長李遠哲院長但是他責無旁貸事實會說話"},{"start":5033.928,"end":5041.414,"text":"接下來我們就來看看每個人上大學一縣一大學每個人都來我們來看一下剛剛已經非常多人看到了你看從1994的大學23所到20202021年變成126所我們以前引以為傲的這個所謂的這個技職"},{"start":5050.822,"end":5070.24,"text":"你看目前為止已經完全直線的降落這些部長你都很清楚吧而且即使現在目前每個人都是拼生的那時候最實作的這個部分老師已經完全不care都去拼生的所以你這樣告訴我這會增加學生的競爭力嗎所以我們來看一下這是完全非常明確的方法明確好不好你看那時候大學生30萬目前為止我們的大學生有81萬2016年更到100萬"},{"start":5076.405,"end":5104.606,"text":"那你看看這是我們現在的大學生我們台灣有這麼多大學生幾乎是全世界幾乎可以算是比例是最高的然後你看看我們現在的人口1994年還有32萬現在大概就13萬從32萬變成13萬那很多人剛剛部長已經否定了嘛不會有60所倒閉嘛也不會有40所倒閉嘛你們目前獄警跟專服的學校應該說沒有這方面的推估啦沒有這方面的推估所以世上幾所大學目前也不知道但絕對不會是40所也不會是60所嘛"},{"start":5106.107,"end":5110.071,"text":"未來5年 部長 你們退估總會有這個退估吧 不會有40吧還是連40都有可能還是50 還是60 家長又有警惕啊"},{"start":5117.315,"end":5117.655,"text":"部長會多少?那個學生的部分一定是"},{"start":5140.834,"end":5154.839,"text":"是 那我們目前為止來說的話你看目前安置去年有16所目前來說有目前要專案的安置的學生到1000多人嘛但是部長你知道嗎1516學生當中有249個人是遭退學的意思是說你被安置的學生當中有16.42是退學的一般大專約校多少人被退學7.42你這邊有16點多被安置的學生反而比這麼大為什麼"},{"start":5169.924,"end":5184.018,"text":"這有沒有想過它的原因而且呢你們所安置的學校是弱轉弱欸部長我給你幾個證據來看一下往下面一看道江管理學院2020年你把它安置到首府跟大同技術學院就這兩個學校要嗎就是即將要停辦了南榮科技大學你把它安置到上面這幾個學院怎麼環球大同都已經退場了"},{"start":5191.645,"end":5200.532,"text":"你把一個弱勢的學校安置到一個更弱勢的學校讓他們退學比例又更高請問你對1500多個學生你有做到照顧的責任嗎?數據還是會說法,部長委員報告這個當然學生常在入學跟轉學這個也有一個我們覺得比較合適的應該是考慮教育的公平性所以在後續我想我們會去注意因為現在更多的學校"},{"start":5217.244,"end":5223.946,"text":"你們是應該注意像大漢剛剛也有提到大漢技術學校的學生他們現在目前大一大二有80人目前還在進行當中問題是學生寫信到你們部長信箱裏面表達他們自己的這樣子的一個焦慮因為學校叫他們開會程序叫教育部的走開會簽字問題是學校告訴他們大三大四你可以繼續留下來但是大一大二你知道他們怎麼辦他們可以轉然後轉到哪裡去如果轉到你們把他安置轉到的地方又是一個弱轉弱"},{"start":5247.293,"end":5271.41,"text":"他們未來的前途要嘛就被退學要嘛根本就是不曉得到哪裡而且你看到新的學校區裡面有很多的課程的銜接包括一些政教的考核他們都沒有辦法你就讓這些學生完全沒有任何的依靠他們寫信到部長部相信箱部長看一下好不好負責你部長冰箱請你看一下好不好然後呢你反映給學校都沒有下文大漢技術學院"},{"start":5272.23,"end":5296.81,"text":"他們已經來跟我們反映了部長請你好好重視這個問題而且私校的學老師說實在的他們是公保你老保還有6個月的這個資遣未問金還可以非自願的去申請但是呢公保的老師哪裡有然後呢你們的強化借聘的平台你說要給他們一些職場訓練你們的平台設在哪裡啊部長你知道這些私校學學校老師的這個所謂的借聘平台你們設在哪裡部長"},{"start":5297.631,"end":5300.074,"text":"委員這個宣導我們可能持續啦因為確實我掌握到的也有相當多的老師有參加這方面的課程借聘多少位"},{"start":5316.574,"end":5326.442,"text":"借聘的確實成效不是那麼好當然啊你放在一個什麼金屬中心然後告訴我幫助這些私校老師委員這個有一些就是到產業界為什麼會請我知道這是經濟部所屬的單位你們的宣傳實在是太差了所以借聘的效果一點都不好有做這件事情就沒有好好想別的事情而且我要說實在私立學校的年資裡面喔特別是中南部的老師的這個服兵的兩年年資國立大學都可以採集私立大學沒有"},{"start":5342.555,"end":5369.498,"text":"所以我覺得我們真的是公司力來說的話真的是大學你要不要給這些私立老師也一個交代兩年差很多特別是他們都要退場的有沒有這些年間是差很多部長你要不要在你下任之前好好幫助他們一下你這部分我們再研究一下你這要研究好好然後接下來我真的要說M型的部分拜託現在我們來說的話部長這是一個非常大的一個嚴重的一個問題你看看我們現在說要讓學生快樂學結果呢私校的就讀率9年"},{"start":5370.399,"end":5374.863,"text":"增加了25%簡直是瘋狂的爆發當中啊你知道近10年來國中生少了25萬人私立公主的就讀率卻多了25%這代表什麼我們公立學校竟然已經經營到目前為止每個家長特別是割喉案之後所有家長都往私立學校去做你反而是教改30年讓我們的M型化越來越嚴重了部長你有沒有正視這個問題"},{"start":5398.223,"end":5423.576,"text":"我想私校私中尤其是國中的這部分即使各界也有很多的討論那你有沒有什麼任何的方式當然你也沒有你像目前的法律也沒有辦法做任何的限制但重點就是你必須要去思考你不能叫家長你不能叫學生你包括這些你看為什麼要選擇台灣國中生每7個人就有一個念私立學校每7個人就有一個念私立學校這是匪夷所思的"},{"start":5424.016,"end":5425.537,"text":"但是國民教育的階段如果讓台灣再回到當時義務教育沒有成立的那個小六學生就是要補習"},{"start":5446.853,"end":5457.043,"text":"現在的失蹤看到的就是台灣一個非常被扭曲的孩子成長過程因為失蹤用連招模式擇優而不去進國民義務教育所以大院這邊當時要修私立學校法可不可以讓孩子是受到一個合理的"},{"start":5469.154,"end":5486.848,"text":"議務教育的過程部長你是最長你歷期最久的這個部分就是應該在你的部分裡面有所作為啊你真的以為說每個家長都很希望把孩子送到私校嗎如果公立經營得很好的話我為什麼要讓孩子進到私校這是一個非常大的問題這是你7年半的部長的任內當中讓M型化我肯定你其他的一個作為辛苦但是M型化在教改30年當中你不得不承認讓我們台灣的M型的社會越來越嚴重"},{"start":5498.677,"end":5500.618,"text":"我希望我們大院的委員能夠共同支持修法"},{"start":5515.922,"end":5541.379,"text":"讓臺灣的教育是回到真的義務教育就是義務教育而不是把所有學業最優秀的孩子集中一起然後又號召我這是辦學最好我認為義務教育不應該是如此我也不認為應該是如此所以你說 修法一定要在大院來努力修法 那問題是你當了7年半了沒有沒有 現在本來就有版本上個月期只是大院的這個委員們的意見所以是我們大院的意見的意見意見是分歧的啦 我應該跟委員報告"},{"start":5544.221,"end":5544.241,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":5569.414,"end":5571.877,"text":"謝謝趙偉 謝謝部長 謝謝那接下來就換我 謝謝謝謝 我們現在請我們的陳培宇委員好 謝謝主席 那有請潘部長 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":5591.95,"end":5615.707,"text":"部長辛苦了七年半我想其實有非常多改變大家都看得到那我不會全盤否定教改30年因為我自己兩個小孩其實也是在教改30年這當中很重要的受益者那但是今天有一個比較特殊的個案先跟部長討論第一個是大仁國中棒球隊疑似霸凌事件這個在4月12號開始在網路上相關影片不斷的流傳那部長有沒有看過這個影片"},{"start":5620.452,"end":5634.426,"text":"所以目前相關的進度部長應該都知道對嗎就是您剛剛說的高雄市政府已經積極在處理了那我們其實一向都不喜歡談個案部長知道我們喜歡談同案同案的原因是因為我們發現裡面有非常多的問題從這個同案來看"},{"start":5637.172,"end":5643.437,"text":"我想部長你一定會認同我等一下講這句話像這樣的校園霸凌事件不管是師對生或是生對生它絕對不會是最後一起對嗎因為目前不管是球員的人權意識或者是教練或者是老師跟學生之間的溝通其實都還是有很多的問題"},{"start":5652.824,"end":5672.034,"text":"可是因為每次在很多漫長的溝通底下很多事情他常常會被說這是教練的工作考慮到教練工作權利考慮到球隊可以幫學校爭光最後的結果就是不了了之可是我們來看一下跟我們國情很像的日本他們其實一直都有類似的事件在發生可是他們從來他們開始改進之後他們認為這不是只是單純的校園事件會有比較進一步的紀律裁罰"},{"start":5677.677,"end":5703.639,"text":"那我想問部長在您任內還有一些時間可以跟您的同仁討論我們臺灣有沒有機會設計像這樣的機制跟委員報告這個校園霸凌當然不管生對生、私對生包含很多輔導管教的議題這都是社會各界而且也在我們的第一現場也有一些事情發生了所以我也跟委員報告經過這一年整理那教育部也在今天公佈、發佈"},{"start":5705.501,"end":5716.537,"text":"我們有關新修訂的校園霸凌準則還有教師解聘不續聘的相關辦法就是要希望建立起一個比較客觀公正的處理機制我想這個是歷一年的時間"},{"start":5722.345,"end":5751.303,"text":"我們辦公室也一直在跟你們討論今天因為大家這個真的充分的討論也把各界注意到的這些議題大概都做了整理所以今天正式的發布實施可是我們來看一下部長剛剛說的辦法跟想法我都非常非常認同所以我剛剛說部長勇於認識在您卸任前你願意推出這兩個而且做了相關的公告可是我們其實很擔心常常在很多體育界的流傳就說好像所有的法道的豬輪街都會卡住"},{"start":5752.083,"end":5767.119,"text":"所以部長應該知道我們辦公室一直在追很多跟體育署有關的案子所以關於這個剛剛我說那個大仁國中的個案也拜託教育部持續協助高雄市政府協助了解這是第一個那第二個呢我們希望就像部長您剛說的霸凌凌容忍不能只是口號"},{"start":5768.22,"end":5796.042,"text":"不管是您還在的這段時間或者是後續的部長您剛剛說到會交接嘛我希望部長您可以跟新的部長分享一個很重要的事情就是奪牌的思維其實這件事情一直在傷害體育現場的所有小孩其實也在傷害所有大人所有家長那我相信這件事情在新的部長新的總統上任之後應該要更積極有所作為也拜託部長在交接的時候務必要把這件事情放在心裡頭我相信部長在這7年半任期一定也接觸到非常非常多的個案"},{"start":5796.662,"end":5819.105,"text":"再來就是這個孩子假設以這個個案的孩子來說他可能有機會日後是要轉學的但是部長你知道轉學禁賽的制度我們雖然有相關的辦法已經寫得很清楚了他們如果是因為性平案件霸凌案件轉學他不會受到這個所謂禁止出賽的規定對不對可是其實在現場落實的配套非常有狀況這個部分也要拜託教育部持續進行了解可以嗎"},{"start":5819.645,"end":5824.127,"text":"謝謝委員 我想剛才跟委員報告的一些機制我覺得真的是經過大家及時廣益是有一個更明確處理的機制對 但是因為體育的部分比較嚴重對 但對個案 像委員提到的這部分我想我會再請體育署來對這方面也要去留意好 謝謝部長有機會說在執行落地的這方面更加的確實"},{"start":5841.715,"end":5859.108,"text":"關於特教的部分在我們整個業務報告裡面39頁有點可惜都沒有看到關於特教生的部分那我想部長應該非常清楚我們辦公室一直在協助處理非常多特教生的個案有一些事情我們發現它不只是個案它其實是同案制度的問題"},{"start":5859.989,"end":5869.763,"text":"我們在上次3月21日的時候關於4所即將退場的學校後續有將近200個特教生我們後續跟學生追蹤跟家長保持聯絡謝謝部長教育部在這裡已經有跟他們開線上會議同時保持討論對嗎這邊我就快速跟部長確認"},{"start":5880.34,"end":5896.636,"text":"除了這四所學校之外到底還有哪些問題目前即將要退場的私立大學跟高中請教育部應該快速建立跨單位尤其是教育部內部自己如何去協助這些特教生因為他跟高教有關跟特教有關"},{"start":5897.677,"end":5918.271,"text":"所有的事情必須要大家通盤來討論跟檢討所以我覺得很擔心是我在這一次的業務報告裡面完全沒有看到特教生的相關權益跟相關的後續配套措施這個部分是不是請部長回應一下好 謝謝委員這個提醒因為在安置學生確實特教學生的需要給協助的是更多"},{"start":5918.951,"end":5919.211,"text":"我跟部長說有多普遍"},{"start":5937.45,"end":5966.189,"text":"之前來的考試我記得是在3月在台南辦的考試特教生正式入學今年已經來到3300個多個學生那我們每年也才報考多少小孩但是這個比例這麼高所以我也想要提醒部長有沒有可能在預警學校階段我們知道其實你們手上是有名單的對嗎就退場學校跟預警學校針對私立的高中職私立的大學的預警學校名單裡面到底有多少特教生因為我們知道很多學校從預警走到退場其實還蠻快的"},{"start":5967.851,"end":5992.913,"text":"先行盤點相關的人力及資源不要再度發生特教生在整個退場機制當中其實是被忽略的不管是我之前去年2月就跟部長請教過學生們轉到更弱的學校去剛剛趙薇也說了關於特教生這一塊可能都沒有人注意到我們光是處理一般生的議題就已經夠頭痛了所以拜託有沒有機會在兩個月內把相關的規劃報告提供給教育法委員會我覺得這個非常有必要我想未來我們因為也確實要"},{"start":5993.914,"end":5994.154,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6009.271,"end":6031.322,"text":"謝謝部長一樣下一個是特教的學生他們在跟我們談的是相關的大學的升學徵試的權益我們來看一下目前我們收到很多很多的陳情就是到底這些學生他們可以怎麼樣進入大學裡頭那教育部也才剛剛公告身心障礙升學輔導辦法的預告期剛結束可是這個辦法一公布之後有非常多家長"},{"start":6033.122,"end":6053.17,"text":"但我必須承認教育部確實在很多配套措施上是有相關難度的那我們來看一下一個實際的例子我不要說這是什麼系很多的就是同一個科系落在不同的學校裡頭他開放給特生你看一下文化大學只有兩名聽障生在政大一名台大三名中正一名"},{"start":6054.591,"end":6071.31,"text":"很多孩子跟家長就說相關的名額這麼少到底是為什麼所以他們能夠選擇的學校真的很少再來以文化大學收肢體障礙生兩名或是學長中正收一名政治收一名那我很好奇像自閉症政大收一名文大收兩名"},{"start":6071.71,"end":6092.982,"text":"如果沒有招滿的話他可不可以留用到其他的帳別例如說自閉症跟學習障礙生的名額可不可以互換就是留用所以我剛剛講了他們的選擇很少其實孩子們覺得自己升學的選擇充滿了障礙第二個名額如果沒有徵選滿可不可以留用這件事情所以我相信後續很多難度可不可以請部長快速回應一下"},{"start":6093.522,"end":6108.349,"text":"跟委員報告,當然特教真是這是一個管道啦,那特教的孩子不是,這不是唯一這個我知道,我們有7成的小孩是透過這個考試服務入學可是另外的3成的小孩的生意其實還是要聽見嘛所以我剛說我知道很多難度所以我剛說我知道很多難度民意委開放確實學校是會去評估他的條件啦"},{"start":6113.471,"end":6113.491,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":6131.798,"end":6141.849,"text":"我們當然尊重大學自治啦但是我必須要說我當然知道七成的小孩是透過考試服務的調整可以入學只剩下三成的小孩必須要透過這個伸張增試可是我們在想喔還有很多的難題在現場我們聽到的反應的聲音我們後續可不可以積極邀請教育部"},{"start":6147.915,"end":6148.075,"text":"以這個基礎之下"},{"start":6176.876,"end":6177.017,"text":"請教育部部長"},{"start":6192.56,"end":6218.845,"text":"討論這個我都完全認同是是時間到最後一個校園退場空間目前我們看到各縣市政府跟教育部都有些積極的合作我想要快速問一下其實之前在平台上為二連署成功的在公共政策平台上有一個就是可不可以把這個退場的學校作為足球聯賽舉辦的基地或者是相關的訓練基地的部分這個部分部長你要不要快速回應一下這可能要評估一下啦好啦評估一下但是你看它在公共政策平台上足球場要的空間相當的大"},{"start":6221.465,"end":6224.806,"text":"其實很多學校是很適合的我只是希望教育部在後續的政策規劃上可以把這個想像放入政策變動當中"},{"start":6237.552,"end":6237.572,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":6265.404,"end":6268.006,"text":"好接下來我們請吳佩奕委員謝謝主席我請潘文忠部長好部長謝謝委員好部長好在開始質詢之前我想要先跟你關切因為今天有一則新聞是傳出說有一位是在政治圈有權有勢的大咖那他的家庭裡面有家暴的事情傳出"},{"start":6295.206,"end":6302.592,"text":"根據報導說被家暴者多次報警當然這是衛福部家防中心的職責但是報載的資訊是說這位被家暴者多次報警因為可能是家暴方是有權有勢的人物所以這一案目前還沒有開案那是後續要持續追蹤但是在報導裡面我關注到的是說疑似孩子也在家暴的現場"},{"start":6322.808,"end":6347.98,"text":"那就是我們說的目睹兒對家暴的目睹兒孩子還在學校就學當中我們學校是不是有義務來協助委員這個細節因為我可能還不太那麼了解如果因為學校本身我們都一直想為了保護這個兒少都有通報的責任如果說有進一步掌握到資訊其實是要做這樣的事情是以通案來說"},{"start":6349.181,"end":6374.438,"text":"我們校方有提供被家暴者的一項措施就是保護令就是要來隔絕施暴者讓他們沒有繼續施暴的機會所以如果保護令下來了那學校其實是可以來提出救學安全計畫那這一個個案保護兒童我們不應該對外公布但是教育部有義務去了解這一個個案他是否後續有被好好的被關注然後如果孩子有需求我們要來幫忙好不好"},{"start":6377.4,"end":6401.008,"text":"這個今年是教改的30年那我想回顧教改30教改是一個全方面的改革我覺得不適合拿一個片面項目的來做定論成功或者是失敗回顧教改的方向包括我們有家庭教育幼兒教育一直到大學教育都是我們改革的範圍那其中很重要的精神就是我們教育要鬆綁"},{"start":6402.328,"end":6407.789,"text":"我自己是特別有感因為我在小學的時候當時就讀是臺北縣的北新國小當時我也參與了教改因為我是被實驗者我們參與了叫做410美勞教育開放教育實驗班那是由當時國北市的一群教授來跟我們在國小裡面教育現場的小學老師合作提出的教改的實驗計畫這是一個6年不分班的計畫"},{"start":6429.033,"end":6439.788,"text":"所以當時所有我們的課程的內容呢都是由這一群我熱血的教授以及現場的老師們共同來擬定的那我自己在參與的過程當中呢我覺得"},{"start":6444.514,"end":6460.011,"text":"我的生命得到了一個很開放跟自由的啟發進到教室對我來說是走進一個更開闊的空間而不是被關在一個教室裡面那所以對我來說我覺得教育的改革"},{"start":6461.312,"end":6464.074,"text":"我們今天要討論的不應該是成功或者失敗應該是我們教改的未盡之業還有哪些因為包括了我們當時提到的我們希望呢有達到85%的幼兒可以就學那我們今天大概達到了九成多還沒有達到百分之百都還在努力當中我們要提供更多的公幼公托那我們希望教育現場可以自主"},{"start":6488.374,"end":6489.495,"text":"我蠻熟悉啦因為剛好是那當時吳靜峰吳主任"},{"start":6512.692,"end":6538.992,"text":"他們當時正在討論這個問題包括林曼莉館長當時剛委員所提到當時它就是一個啟動因為那一個階段講真話還算是很正要展開的階段所以當時北京國小的這個實驗方案我在臺北縣教育局服務我很了解因為這樣才發現到其實有好多學校已經有很多在思考怎麼樣讓孩子的學習不是在我們原來的這種既有的框架下"},{"start":6539.853,"end":6548.976,"text":"所以這個應該是一個起步到逐步的展開是那我相信我參與到的教改也不只是一個個案我要說的就是教改不只是410大遊行也不只是教改會其實在我們全台灣的各地有非常多的教育人員在這個30年當中都做了很多不同的嘗試那我認為我們教育部應該可以來去整理這些資料也讓社會可以看見教改更多的面貌"},{"start":6565.6,"end":6571.065,"text":"但是教育對我自己來說因為參與了這一段的實驗教育那後來我就回歸到的體制內進入了國中高中來就讀那我在念國中的時候呢還是有體罰的年代所以呢我從這個很寬廣的開放教育一回到體制內我開始面臨的是整整三年的體罰"},{"start":6586.44,"end":6588.901,"text":"因為當時的學校服儀規定只要我們這個衣服沒有紮進去這個頭髮超過兩公分每一個項目都是要被打的所以我整整紮死的被打了三年所以呢在這個教育的過程當中我們知道教改一定要持續的做下去所以今天也要跟部長關切的是服儀規定"},{"start":6606.809,"end":6622.996,"text":"因為我們在這個也是你的任內我們已經有推動修法那目前我們的服役的精神就是服役要自主但過去有在擔任臺北市議員我也發現說教育部雖然公告了學校我們應該讓尊重學生服役自主但是呢到教學現場裡面很多學校還沒有去修改他的校規"},{"start":6626.738,"end":6630.981,"text":"還沒有召開學務會議雖然中央有這樣規定的鬆綁在教學現場仍然是會處罰的當時我也要求臺北市政府的教育局要去對全市的學校來進行督導我知道教育部這幾年也收到了很多有關於服役的陳情我們發函的督導案件量也是持續的攀升當中我們對於這個服役自主"},{"start":6651.075,"end":6656.218,"text":"目前我們有沒有瞭解我們全國的狀況學校已經通通都改善了嗎規範學校所訂的這一套它有一個機制學生家長等參與通過校務會議這個規範一初期確實有些學校就還按兵不動目前來講因為都會有"},{"start":6675.488,"end":6686.575,"text":"檢舉我們也會有要求尤其地方政府也要求地方應該來做改變所以我想在如果就服務與規範上面目前看起來應該是比較我們教育部發出的督導函就國中而言 112學年度是166校高中發出了171校督導函所以代表說雖然規定修改了在實際的現場還是有很多我們要去"},{"start":6700.425,"end":6719.653,"text":"我希望這部分教育部可以持續來關注我希望這部分會持續來進行因為當時也比較希望更開放的瞭解各校執行的情況所以教育部有設那種如果學校沒有就是有點違反這個相關的規範做一些不合理的服務的要求"},{"start":6720.613,"end":6744.847,"text":"有一個檢舉陳請的機制就是讓我們有機會再進一步瞭解到是不是有學校仍然還是用他自己的方法在做這個我想會再持續的督導接下來跟部長關切的是性剝削的防治尤其是我們的兒少性剝削這個當然社會非常的關注那我想有一個很重要的根本還是在於我們教育"},{"start":6745.868,"end":6768.645,"text":"那目前我們在學校裡面有關於兒少性剝削的防治其實有在很多的素養教材裡面的素養教育不過我看了一下例如說我們把它放在這個資訊課程裡面資訊課程裡面呢我們教孩子說如果說你有面臨到這樣子的性剝削相關的事情的話你可以做哪些事情我們跟他說你可以做四個第一個告訴老師再來呢我們要這個截圖存證然後我們要去報警"},{"start":6771.247,"end":6797.507,"text":"並且我們要檢舉對方但我覺得漏了非常重要的一項我們要教會孩子他要怎麼樣通報來把他的影像先下架先下架是保護孩子非常重要第一時間應該要去做的事情那甚至學校的老師是不是都知道我們現在衛福部這整個下架的流程性暴力影像性私密影像被外流的下架流程這我認為我們要趕快加入我們的教材裡面"},{"start":6800.129,"end":6824.365,"text":"同時,它也不應該只是在一個科技資訊的課程裡其實性剝削的防治它應該是在很多的課程裡面包括我們的公民教育我們的法律的知識同學不是只有觀看如果你也散播的話這也是會觸法的這非常嚴重所以我希望我們教育部是不是可以來統合一下現在在我們學校裡面這個課程有關於兒少性剝削目前我們是用什麼樣的方式來提供教材"},{"start":6836.996,"end":6845.365,"text":"網絡在這方面是有一個很普遍而且學生很容易就不小心接觸了所以當時在這個數位的網絡的這方面有做這個"},{"start":6846.526,"end":6848.607,"text":"提醒到我想這個不只在這一個面向上那如果目前我們所做的這些教材我想最主要一方面讓學生接觸以外他能夠有一個反應"},{"start":6864.873,"end":6864.913,"text":"我們會再繼續"},{"start":6891.498,"end":6918.253,"text":"尤其部長因為我們在關切衛福部這個非法的性影像的下架他的這個通報案件數其實絕對遠遠比實際的數字來的低所以我希望我們能夠協助現場的教師我們應該能夠自己部會之間有一個比較暢通的一個管道一旦我們收到孩子來求助的時候第一時間就要協助他了不要等到他還要去報警然後還要走很多的流程才有辦法讓影像下架好不好"},{"start":6920.174,"end":6925.097,"text":"謝謝委員 這個提醒我覺得很必要我們在跨部會做一個整理好 謝謝好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝那接下來我們請林倩琦委員那我們也順便報告我們在第9位羅廷文委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘 謝謝好 謝謝張偉也請潘部長部長 謝謝"},{"start":6952.363,"end":6970.572,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6971.633,"end":6974.014,"text":"接下來因為今天討論的主題就這30年教育的一個狀況"},{"start":6991.542,"end":7004.377,"text":"那我想先請教部長那這30年的這個教育的改革推動那部長這邊如果就您個人而言我們如果要跟社會整體來討論這樣這30年來最正面的一個價值您會怎麼樣來談這30年的一個教改"},{"start":7011.906,"end":7021.532,"text":"是,跟委員報告,因為410教改的倡議其實是因應當時的時空背景委員也知道那是台灣當然在早期有相當長時間的戒嚴這個其實在很多的"},{"start":7027.615,"end":7056.559,"text":"是受到一些比較嚴格的規範包含教育那410之所以這樣的倡議比較希望能夠有更多鬆綁然後慢慢回到孩子學生是一個很重要的一個學習主體當然委員也了解這個教育的本質一直在強調那種應該要讓學生個別差異適性發展這個概念即使走下來410在這方面也看到台灣的教育其實更加的多元活潑包含剛才委員在提醒實現教育"},{"start":7057.139,"end":7076.817,"text":"也是因為讓家長有一個選擇因為不一定每個家長對孩子的選擇都一樣所以像實驗教育三法的通過也是用這樣的一個基礎讓很多孩子也許不太習慣在我們體制內的學校但這樣的概念我想都可以我是舉例說明可以看得出來"},{"start":7077.458,"end":7077.618,"text":"以學生為主體．"},{"start":7094.5,"end":7094.52,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":7110.692,"end":7135.501,"text":"我一直都秉持真的應該讓體制調整來讓孩子多有機會而不是用唯一的篩選標準讓學生反正我就是用這套標準你能夠得到這方面你能力在這方面你就在這方面不能所以我要跟委員報告很嚴格的篩選單一的標準其實是創製造了非常多學習的挫敗者因為不是每個孩子對科學有興趣"},{"start":7138.363,"end":7157.219,"text":"對學習者的主體然後讓他有一個多元的選擇應該是能對教改這個區塊這幾年實行的一個比較正面的一個價值但是在配合這樣一個過程當中或許有一些未盡之處所以我想這是我們今天探討一個主題"},{"start":7159.241,"end":7175.536,"text":"我們知道在少子女化這個部分大概這幾十年一直是我們在談的一個問題依據你們的資料大概90年然後過了千禧年之後一直到今天整個出生率成為學校在招生"},{"start":7176.297,"end":7177.718,"text":"因廣設大學而導致有一些討論而導致今天有一些大學要退場"},{"start":7198.93,"end":7219.79,"text":"在這邊我想要探討的是當時410的這個教改的訴求有這幾項那剛才我有聽到委員說這個我們課委員說這個廣設高中大學跟這個人口的取向其實就我而言我也覺得是有點矛盾那但是我就提出其中一點那你們在那個時候主張的小班小校"},{"start":7220.791,"end":7237.181,"text":"倒是在你們專科以上學校維護學生授教權益應該注意的這個事項辦法裡面呢那結果你們所規定出來的東西好像跟這個小班小校是有一點衝突所以如果你們期待有某一些師生餅"},{"start":7238.001,"end":7257.37,"text":"但是我們又不懂為什麼低於這一些人數那就不行小班小校然後又不准我們低於某一些人數那這個學生的受教權跟邏輯在哪裡就有點像明明在少子化但是我們又廣設高中大學那這樣似乎我們不知道說那現在會碰到問題是絕對必然的嗎"},{"start":7259.031,"end":7285.792,"text":"所以這是我們今年在討論目前的這個狀況那過去的已經過去了我們可能要討論的是現在的狀況是什麼那未來我們怎麼處理那我們一直很關心的這個就是私立高級中等學校的一個退場條例那我們接下來簡稱退場條例好了因為這幾年的這個少子女化然後跟廣設大學其實是連在一起的"},{"start":7287.951,"end":7307.869,"text":"前幾年你們訂定了這個很嚴苛的這個退場條例那近幾年已經有幾個學校已經受到了這個影響那你們在退場條例裡面大概很重要的就是在這個第6條這邊有提到有一些學校我們在那個學界常常都說你們輔導就即輔導只要是進入你們的這個專案輔導大概就真的只有導了"},{"start":7312.373,"end":7314.736,"text":"為什麼會有這個原因其實裡面有好幾個細項我們應該來討論比如說董事會的一個結構老師的轉業還有學生的權益這是在退場條例裡面最重要的三個主體"},{"start":7329.113,"end":7353.88,"text":"現在碰到了一個實際的狀況就是你們在第6條裡面規定有這些情勢那你們可能就會預警也會要介入這所謂的退場那我們再往下看那另外還有你們一些停辦的一些實施原則那有些東西我們也就很好奇說那學生不滿多少人或者是新生註冊率低於六成這個一定跟辦學不好有直接的連帶嗎我們不太清楚註冊率不佳"},{"start":7356.481,"end":7377.928,"text":"未必跟這個教學品質不好那你們所定出來的量化標準有的時候在質化的部分反倒是產生一個矛盾的現象那我們為什麼不能在這個部分有一些其他的可能性比如說推廣教育或者是開設遠距離的課程因為這個原因不見得就是品質不好也有可能是因為地域的關係"},{"start":7379.068,"end":7384.997,"text":"所以這個部分是可不可以請那個部理念再去做一個那個討論跟瞭解剛才委員提到這兩個之前就是有一些規範我們認為在質詢上是不是那麼合適啦所以剛才講那個什麼3000人這個其實已經取消"},{"start":7394.611,"end":7402.755,"text":"因為我們也覺得說有些學校就走精緻﹑規模的﹑它或許是精緻化﹑對﹑非常優質化﹑對﹑對﹑所以這個已經不存在當然講註冊力不佳﹑這個也不是專府的條件這個就是之前可能在推動的過程當中﹑也得到學校的一些反應﹑因為它是合理的要往這樣的方向去做規劃﹑如果以這樣的方式就被類專府﹑我們認為反而是一個限制"},{"start":7420.264,"end":7428.827,"text":"所以最近剛才委員提到這兩點我跟我報告在我們也經過一直在強調一個教育本來就是要不斷的去了解現場去做修正然後跟現場這個剛才那兩個我跟委員補充這兩個已經做修正不會以這個為條件"},{"start":7436.59,"end":7456.347,"text":"另外就是這個制度的設計我們覺得教育部的一個做法好像只要止損而不是讓學校起死回生那這個部分會關係到我待會要講的東西就是說我們想要了解現在部裡面對於這30年來在現在所碰到的問題跟未來我們到底要什麼走向這個是我覺得現在討論會比較有點正面的效益"},{"start":7460.21,"end":7485.485,"text":"讓一些學校感覺到你們好像在防賊那那個情願不准好像他如果變得不好那你是情願不准到最後他只能退場那其實私校的一個轉型也是部裡面有很重要的責任那你們是不是應該其實董事會的部分我們知道其實你們都會等於是他如果進入了這個專府那你們就會指定董事那可是這個公益董事跟整個董事"},{"start":7485.905,"end":7486.825,"text":"因為你們的規定嚴苛影響到三個群體一個是董事會"},{"start":7515.695,"end":7538.954,"text":"他要辦學當然他可能有辦學的心那他當然相當的利潤他也必須要的然後再來是學生那學生的部分那他應該要有學校原地像剛才科委員這邊也提到被轉了一個學校然後那個轉了之後呢這個學校也是搖搖欲墜或者有些就倒了他再轉了第二次他能夠真正完成其實也很難所以那"},{"start":7541.96,"end":7567.338,"text":"還有你們的那個政策我也看不太懂就是已經很多學校都沒有生源了結果國立大學也一直不斷擴編科系跟增加員額那這一點我就想要問所以我們未來的路線究竟是要國家化還是要像自由競爭市場也就是要嘛我們像歐洲的公共化要不然就像美國的自由競爭市場你們就不要去卡私立學校它可以很優質化"},{"start":7568.939,"end":7586.085,"text":"可以向那個高中以下那現在很多私立學校是家長會讓學生去的地方那可是你們又好像不是要做到公共化你增加了國立大學的名額然後私校當然以後就一定會消失嘛可是我們不知道你到底是往公共化的方向走"},{"start":7586.545,"end":7609.496,"text":"那還是那OK我就自由競爭那我也不要去限制你學費私立學校學費我也不要去限制你私立學校的某一些東西那我們就自由競爭市場那我們私立學校跟公立學校一起來競爭那也不盡然會是現在的這樣子的排名所以可不可以讓我們知道中華民國的高教究竟你們要何去何從現在是一個關鍵點"},{"start":7611.412,"end":7617.957,"text":"最後我再為我們原住民學生發一個聲號不好意思那個感謝部長您有跟我講原住民的這個部分我們可以從這個產西合作的這個2.0去投入但是我們光把這兩個國際專班跟產西合作光是每一個月的經驗拉出來那就有差異那為什麼這產西合作當然不是只有原住民那為什麼台灣的學生拿的一定比國際的學生少"},{"start":7638.73,"end":7653.435,"text":"為什麼國際的學生到最後都是在我們台灣很重要的高等工業跟科技那產技合作的學生我們可能要做黑手跟藍領那這個是不是可以請部裡面再整合的討論一下好嗎"},{"start":7655.276,"end":7672.864,"text":"委員這個我簡單補充一下就好了剛才談到對於私校董事會的這部分因為我們也看過也有董事會即使瞬間拍拍走人私生留給政府留給他們去所以為什麼要再加入當他列為專府"},{"start":7673.604,"end":7696.538,"text":"需要有一些跟這個有關的老師或學生代表成為公益董事我想委員可以了解因為他們是生命共同體那第二個委員針對臺灣的高教環環招生這部分我也跟委員報告各行各業都缺目前教育部的政策也比較希望應該是公司一起來努力不會只是由公益來增加招生名額比如資通訊的名額"},{"start":7697.358,"end":7697.418,"text":"陳秀寶委員"},{"start":7726.271,"end":7728.452,"text":"謝謝主席 請潘部長好 部長委員好部長 早安部長 我們今天的主題其實對這個教改我們從1994年的410教改大遊行來催生成立了410教改聯盟當時有很多項的教改的訴求包括落實小班小校廣設高中大學推動教育現代化以及制定教育基本法等"},{"start":7754.29,"end":7782.714,"text":"當然經過30年我們再回顧當時的訴求以現在環境改變之後我們來看會有不同的認知不同的理解那部長您在教育部長的職位7年多是我們歷屆的教育部長任職紀錄最長的那本席對您的認真情面也真的是非常的肯定您即將卸任的時候呢您對新任的部長有什麼期許或者說應該這樣說您最期望怎麼樣的哪一個政策是可以繼續延續下去"},{"start":7784.383,"end":7801.782,"text":"謝謝委員的肯定那我想對於因為教育的工作它其實真的是很繁雜啦從學前就到終身教育啦其實要單獨的說哪些我認為都重要這幾年雖然事情好多好繁雜啦但是我也覺得應該是要"},{"start":7803.404,"end":7803.544,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7827.782,"end":7827.962,"text":"主席"},{"start":7846.746,"end":7858.664,"text":"本席在上週有針對教改30年的問題來就叫林明毅的次長那次長認為說只要明星高中還在那我們就很難降低我們學生的升學壓力部長您的想法呢"},{"start":7860.277,"end":7878.227,"text":"委員確實啦因為當父母我們都當父母也都知道父母的心總是孩子好能夠更好這是他們永遠的期待我們自己也當然如此啦那所以在升學這件事情上即使台灣在不管哪個階段的教育的提供的量"},{"start":7878.647,"end":7879.047,"text":"其實對家長對學校的老師來講也都是這樣子"},{"start":7909.141,"end":7932.199,"text":"總體來說不管是說過去現在還是未來我們的教育不管是說是在課綱的眼裡還是改革本期都希望說這是以學生為主體的立場是不會變的那這個部分我再跟您請教在少子女化的現象衝擊之下去年的大專院校友和春技術學院中州科技大學臺灣首府大學退場了那在今年還有明道大學環球科技大學及東方設計大學停辦"},{"start":7933.76,"end":7951.446,"text":"那你們的報告裡面有說東方設計大學停辦之後呢占第9公頃的校園已經由高雄科技大學向教育部這邊來申請接收會成為他們高科大第6個校園而且規劃作為高科大產學合作園區這個部分教育部你們支持嗎也已經核定了沒有"},{"start":7952.621,"end":7953.302,"text":"所以教育部你們是支持的?"},{"start":7972.998,"end":7976.681,"text":"部長,如果說高科大產學合作園區這個模式可行的那在我們南昌化的明道大學今年也要停辦本人也覺得非常可惜"},{"start":8001.258,"end":8001.819,"text":"部長您的看法"},{"start":8026.039,"end":8045.232,"text":"委員這個當然後續經營的這個主體啦他本身我覺得評估是很重要的委員這個想法我想如果這個張思達因為他有好多是在產學這方面如果他比如說想參考高雄科大的模式我想教育部當然會支持"},{"start":8045.452,"end":8049.113,"text":"另外以中州大學為例原本其實有在考慮規劃成社宅或是長照的據點那在報告上面是說校地已經由內政部來承接而且根據了解現在是會規劃成為民防訓練基地"},{"start":8071.298,"end":8084.885,"text":"我想請問部長以這個中州大學的這個校地利用來講民防訓練基地這個有確定了嗎這個部分是確定的因為內政部是很清楚的表達他的這個需求"},{"start":8086.089,"end":8109.565,"text":"因為我跟委員報告在跨部會行政跨部這個平台是由副院長來主持但是都會請各相關公家部門學校來做需求的評估當然以各部不管是內政部或是衛華或者是他們對這樣子有需求有場地的需求那以院長的看法可能就會覺得需去評估但是以教育部的看法你們會不會覺得說其實退場的校園還是應該朝社宅或是長照據點這樣子會有更具有共同化"},{"start":8116.109,"end":8117.03,"text":"因為其實以在地民眾他們本來也以為這個會去規劃成設宅或長照據點"},{"start":8142.771,"end":8162.939,"text":"所以後來知道有這樣的結果之後他們有蠻驚愕的就是說其實他們認定中就是說我們退場的這個校園不是應該就是比較有公益性的這樣的場域來利用為什麼會變成是一個民防訓練的基地當然這個以部長您這個是不是您能夠去決定的這個退場的場地"},{"start":8163.959,"end":8189.244,"text":"如果說有各部門他們有這個需求提出來也許院長他有其他的考量但是本席也會覺得說結合在地民眾的意見退場的這些校園還是應該用在比較有公益性的這樣的運用會比較符合民眾他們的期待這公益性一定是只是他面相不同而已比如像剛才內政部他們用做民防的訓練他其實還是公益使用"},{"start":8190.244,"end":8214.293,"text":"則是委員可能在地更希望說聽到民眾的聲音跟訴求說如果這個不錯的退場的效力能夠再增建一部分的像我也跟委員報告這部分因為委員可以反映地方的需求那在目前社宅本來也有中間跟地方的的籌建如果說在這一方面委員也可以把這樣的訊息給主管的"},{"start":8214.813,"end":8216.936,"text":"好 謝謝部長接下來本席要針對公共化的議題來就教部長根據統計低收入戶子女進入頂尖大學的比例一年來從2009年統計到2014年其實都在1%以下"},{"start":8230.137,"end":8237.124,"text":"進入公立大學的比例最高也只有0.7%至1.2%由此看來公立學校的學生他的家庭的設計背景會比較高而且根據教育部111年度教育統計資料來顯示高中職畢業生就讀公立大專院校大概占35%就讀私立大專的學生占65%所以"},{"start":8256.882,"end":8275.647,"text":"研究統計資料是這樣子都指出說其實經濟不利以及比較弱勢家庭的學生反而是就讀私立大學的比較多那這個部分這樣的數據呢本席這邊要請教部長為什麼公立大學沒有辦法招收更多來自經濟文化不利以及弱勢家庭的學生"},{"start":8277.093,"end":8301.141,"text":"委員大人入學他有相關的這個機制跟所會設定的一些規範這個是我想入學畢竟是入學的一個模式考慮到的公平性那教育部為什麼在這些年推委員所提到的這個願景計畫就是有些家庭經濟各方面比較弱勢的這樣的孩子我們有一個一年大概一千多名的"},{"start":8301.641,"end":8303.462,"text":"一般大學跟技職校園加起來我們核定名額每年大概是1000到1200位左右"},{"start":8330.236,"end":8352.388,"text":"那在不同的管道像這是個人申請但是我們還有在繁星的部分也有名額因為個人申請是不是是550個名額是嗎應該說幾個管道加起來大概是1000到1200你去年增加了7個消息跟13個名額但是如果是以弱勢家庭的這個學生及家庭比例來看其實月景計畫這個名額應該要再提高"},{"start":8355.429,"end":8368.254,"text":"現在550個這個個人申請的名額是申請的狀況是都已經都有提出來了嗎目前應該在個人是應該正在進行中正在進行中那部長您覺得這樣的名額夠嗎我們會不會在逐年提高名額這個我想因為今天這個議題碰到少子化我們就碰到好多好多面向的問題但是讓弱勢經濟弱勢等的家庭有機會透過政府的一些政策去就讀"},{"start":8385.32,"end":8385.34,"text":"其實這邊齁"},{"start":8399.977,"end":8405.203,"text":"提到提升高校公共性有兩個機制一個是完善就學協助機制第二個是透過原住民族的學生資源中心來輔導原住民學生來入學來營造這個友善的這個族群環境"},{"start":8422.681,"end":8427.883,"text":"這個部分本席提醒是希望說我們要落實高教的公共化除了提供我們學長會的補助之外其實應該有完善的相關的友善措施我們要讓教育真正是成為能夠翻產階級的助力所以在這一塊為什麼說這個比較弱勢家庭的學生就讀公司力這個學校的這個比例我們必須從這裡面去討論出來說他的"},{"start":8449.45,"end":8451.951,"text":"謝謝我們接下來請羅廷維委員"},{"start":8486.576,"end":8487.218,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長請部長"},{"start":8492.416,"end":8517.155,"text":"委員好部長好部長擔任部長7年多了史上任期最長520要卸任功成身退沒有功勞也有苦勞那我想跟部長恭喜恭喜的是對自己好一點接下來時間給自己更多謝謝委員部長也辛苦了從現在開始應該可以更暢所欲言那部長有沒有什麼一些遺憾還沒做的在這個教育的方面"},{"start":8518.082,"end":8539.98,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝剛才委員的這樣的鼓勵因為教育真的很繁複那這幾年也確實一步一步的跟教育部的同仁來處理也很多方案法案是得到我們大院的一些支持那委員所提到的其實我講真話如果以這幾年教育部我舉例"},{"start":8541.161,"end":8541.181,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":8558.593,"end":8559.654,"text":"我原本是想問你高等教育的一些理想"},{"start":8586.705,"end":8612.95,"text":"我個人覺得大學教育是培養菁英的話那其他各路職業教育培養不同產業所需要人才也是一種理想嗎?我想廣設大學讓高等教育普及率變高是一種理想嗎?這個我們都想要問一下到底在我們心目中的答案是什麼?其實上述兩種理念在各方面都是有衝突的教育是百年大樹人才培育真的不易可是我們推出的政策有時候只是救急"},{"start":8614.391,"end":8637.204,"text":"灑錢再多的錢理由再好聽都沒有用那待會的質詢我想先問部長四個問題但不用急著回答心中想一下學生是否快樂學習學生是否已經整體的帶上來教育的品質是否有提升以及教改是否能夠感受到有成功民國83年410教改訴求開啟台灣高校之爛商410教改"},{"start":8642.026,"end":8659.434,"text":"廣設高中及大學變成當時教育政策的一大核心主軸當中有四大訴求主張落實小班小校廣設高中大學推動教育現代化制定教育的基本法部長請問當年教改的理想落實了嗎?"},{"start":8660.602,"end":8678.145,"text":"跟我們報告這裡頭有很多項都是逐步的在展開也有一些已經發行像那個教育基本法真的都定了小班小校如果在中小學跟我們報告我比較資深我在任教的時候台灣一班小學生竟然是64個"},{"start":8679.747,"end":8681.628,"text":"雖然不難達到但現在除了人數太少的小校會被廢校消失外"},{"start":8700.106,"end":8715.048,"text":"各縣市依然有不少的學校班級數超過30班以上至於高中教育的階段班級人數更多公立學校每班人數仍有35人師校更有不少高達45人左右"},{"start":8716.069,"end":8733.954,"text":"廣設高中的一個目標希望5年內達到同年齡20%的人可以上大學設定這樣子的一個門檻是希望維持大學的一個教育品質希望在紓解升學壓力的前提下維持大學的一個優質目標同時人才合理的分流但是有嗎?"},{"start":8734.694,"end":8758.874,"text":"全國最高峰總校數達167所大學多到人人都有大學念甚至還有不少大學因招不滿學生面臨退場危機教育的品質是否有提升我們自己做民意代表也時不時接到了高中大學端打來電話可不可以幫忙協助招生大學破百間以後升學壓力就消除了嗎"},{"start":8760.295,"end":8773.63,"text":"現在的高中學習歷程設計讓我們的學校活動社團消滅了更多大家都要去上補習班學才藝學生是否有達到快樂學習也是我們應該要探討的"},{"start":8775.031,"end":8793.2,"text":"廣設高中卻未能兼顧普高跟技職的均衡發展造成了高中數量大幅增加卻傷害了技職教育我本身就是職業學校畢業的當前造成的臺灣技職體系弱化的困境技專技校院卻增加"},{"start":8794.401,"end":8795.602,"text":"有同學家長會的家長跟我們講"},{"start":8824.241,"end":8833.571,"text":"目前體制上高中轉高職學生的學分會被承認但是呢高職轉高中的一個學分時數卻不足導致"},{"start":8836.38,"end":8859.893,"text":"我們高中學校不被承認的學分導致這條路上很少人去走都是以重考居多當然中投區也有適性輔導轉系的一個招生但都會遇到公立學校不願意丟出名額大部分都是私立學校四處善意名額居多導致適性輔導媒合的成功機率不多"},{"start":8860.393,"end":8888.825,"text":"這都是我們在第一線實務上所遇到的一個狀況這就是民眾給我們實際的一個反應那部長李遠哲先生最近出了一本新書對於當年推動教改他直接說當年教改會提出的只是建議而已他既不是政府官員也不是教育部長在教改議題上一直追著他打是因為2000年政黨輪替的時候他支持民進黨看起來他覺得背黑鍋很委屈我個人認為啊"},{"start":8890.126,"end":8909.433,"text":"真的很遺憾教改的問題不是他支持哪一個政黨而是他現在我們面對的是政府不擅長去處理灰犀牛的一個問題我想為什麼我會這樣說因為早在民國93年陳水扁總統執政的時期監察院報告就已經糾正當時並示警當時的部長是杜正勝"},{"start":8915.536,"end":8934.571,"text":"擴張擴充高等教育容量雖然是教育改革總之一報告書的主張但是當那個年度近年來大專院校一直快速的改制增設導致師資水準追不上學生的一個成長大專院校大學院校"},{"start":8935.191,"end":8955.71,"text":"所深思比年年增高教育資源一直嚴重的稀釋教育品質惡化的一個傾向教育部雖然提出了要建立退場機制以淘汰不具競爭力的學校令鼓勵學校整合其實我們看到這些都是他當時所做的一個言論很多很多的言論包括我隨便介入幾段"},{"start":8956.631,"end":8961.293,"text":"82學年度我國大專院校125所學生年度的人數是689.185人但自92學年度學校成長數是167所10年中整數我們增加45所大專院校成長是33.多%"},{"start":8979.582,"end":9001.624,"text":"我想這些都是我們在顯然提供教改人士所說的廣設高中大學的一個訴求像教育部順應快速的鬆綁造成大專學校快速的增設而我們現在就在面對這樣子的問題來做一個探討我想童年度有很多的一個數據都提出我們當時的教改建議"},{"start":9002.705,"end":9017.467,"text":"竟然變成了我們現在要面對的一個問題我想教育部順應教改人士的訴求雖然值得肯定但是教育資源成長有限在成長人口逐漸趨減之下我們看到高等校院"},{"start":9018.496,"end":9037.105,"text":"短期內極速的改制跟擴充再來提出退場機制無意識浪費社會的整體資源且引發整個社會爭議我想現在來說我剛剛為什麼說你可以提出自己的一個肺腑之言因為您目前也即將要卸任了您對於這樣子的一個亂象我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":9039.848,"end":9066.238,"text":"跟委員報告因為早上我們都會有人在關心我要再講當時410包含行政院組成的教改之意審議會其實當時的時空背景我也跟委員報告臺灣是在嚴格的我們說不得的那種戒嚴時期後在教育上其實是產生比較多的限制所以才有410的倡議也因為很多的教育上是比較回到標準的這種"},{"start":9067.739,"end":9067.979,"text":"主席"},{"start":9089.23,"end":9089.49,"text":"主席李遠哲院長"},{"start":9114.913,"end":9128.008,"text":"所以我才會提出杜政聖所說的他當時就已經有在示警了並不是我們最近才來說哎呀事後諸葛來說這些之前的錯當時杜政聖到現在也一段時間了我想前面四個問題我剛剛有問到"},{"start":9129.77,"end":9150.892,"text":"檢察院的報告裡面總結檢察院說今日重新審視很多當年的訴求已經達成了但論及目標及效能則否我們是否能更簡單的問學生是否快樂學習我們的孩子是否已經有帶上來教育品質有沒有提升教改是否成功是否真的成功了恐怕是負面的結果能佔絕對高的一個比例分期研究"},{"start":9151.713,"end":9175.254,"text":"原因我們看到教育部長更迭頻繁還有政策無法持續的一貫還有教改的配套措施不夠周延趙進實施教育資源不足及數廣設校園區我想教育是百年大計我們都在講百年大計所以一直在談教改教改教改改到現在必須面對的是不斷調整的一個問題"},{"start":9176.255,"end":9200.653,"text":"我就像我們剛剛前面所提到政府不擅長面對灰犀牛那少子化浪潮也是不是一天兩天的事情不是今天才少子化前人不斷的提醒就是杜正勝當時所示警的監察院提出糾正但是我們的政府卻好像完全不對不去面對這個危機的到來那為何政府就是視而不見也希望教育部真的要虛心檢討教改政策的一個狀況盡早"},{"start":9202.394,"end":9218.32,"text":"調整對策不要讓我們的孩子永遠變成教育部的白老鼠我的時間已經到了但是我要跟你講其實我對於吸引喬森人才以及台灣高教人才的流失我們都非常的關注我們這些都有準備議題但是時間有限我們希望"},{"start":9219.28,"end":9237.254,"text":"雖然您準備卸任但底下有許多的同仁以及長官都還在我們應該要來面對這個問題我自己的政策也在一直在推我們的國教希望向下延伸這是我們日後希望能夠探討的題目我們更希望教育部在這個部分能夠一起來努力最後我要提醒"},{"start":9238.755,"end":9239.676,"text":"我們先休息5分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":9274.327,"end":9274.489,"text":"主席"},{"start":9307.927,"end":9308.473,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":9567.674,"end":9571.357,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請葛如君委員謝謝主席 有請教育部潘文忠部長好 潘文忠部長 謝謝"},{"start":9590.894,"end":9606.547,"text":"委員好部長好可謂半個多月很高興再次見到您總算從教育部遮蓋住了一些東西但我們希望可以透明的教育部走出來我還是要恭喜也謝謝您的貢獻在2600多天"},{"start":9611.352,"end":9631.234,"text":"這個算是中華民國建國以後任期最長的教育部長兩度執掌教育部當然沒有意外的話520將會有新的教育部長接任但是這個交接期特別重要也希望您可以在最後的這段時間因為這個一聲輕我們是不是能夠再留下最重要的一些幾件事情讓後面的人可以做得更好"},{"start":9631.975,"end":9656.781,"text":"我想回顧7年多的任期想請教一下即將卸任的您對於這段期間的政績給自己打幾分對自己最不滿意的施政項目有沒有什麼謝謝委員我想自己本身就是教育人這個能夠在教育部服務其實就盡其所能而且我覺得實在是教育部的同仁都很優秀也很積極所以在這些年真的教育的問題不少"},{"start":9657.841,"end":9674.796,"text":"我要跟委員報告其實每次看到校安的問題不管學生是因為哪種因素其實這是讓我最難過的事尤其像去年我們新北的一個校園校安事件"},{"start":9675.376,"end":9681.298,"text":"謝謝部長我相信這個新年任期當中應該有很多成效深有所感但是也有很多我們可以做得更好的地方那剛剛您提到這個校安"},{"start":9699.122,"end":9714.448,"text":"我相信這個校安裡面也有很多的安全包含資訊的安全也是希望讓大家安心那我想對於治安防護的措施希望您或未來部會這個長官員看到我都想到治安應該可以做得更好啦為什麼呢因為從3月27號這個從2月22號科技大樓機房發生火災"},{"start":9720.15,"end":9745.108,"text":"3月12日駭客入軍七所高中的校務行政系統3月17日電子公文系統大當機10月2日科技大樓機房跳電平均每10天出報一次短短的40天以內擠滿了一級二級跟三級的資安事件差一點就全部完全打擊了我想從資安的角度來檢視施政真的是有點危險"},{"start":9746.489,"end":9769.714,"text":"希望真的是不要再發生資安事件讓您可以順利的撐到中場效應響起那我想教育部的資安問題不只是讓大家覺得不安全其實還有一些事件的發生會讓師生開始有點覺得不太安心這兩天有一個震驚教育界的新聞我也非常關注一名台科大的研究生報名參加了今年5月份在南韓舉辦的某一個生技大會的國際研討會"},{"start":9771.794,"end":9790.896,"text":"繳了3萬元的報名費及住宿費以後遲遲未收到會議通知向飯店以及受邀的官網上說受邀的臺大教授求證以後才驚覺是詐騙集團的新手法趕緊報警最後經過多次協商好不容易討回一些錢但是還是有損失想請教一下部長"},{"start":9792.678,"end":9805.91,"text":"這個就現在正在質詢的當下雖然學生已經報警但了不了解這個事件這個網站甚至現在還存在我們現在來操作給你看這個網站做的也真的是算精美這個研討會發表文章499美元"},{"start":9809.753,"end":9828.481,"text":"三個晚上的住宿要價450塊美元現在如果學生缺乏這個什麼畢業點數老師缺乏升等的紀錄一個星期收到email趕快說轉投轉投這個研討會他告訴你說入局了馬上線上刷卡一千多美金刷出去"},{"start":9829.721,"end":9854.754,"text":"這還不是可怕的我想這個以前我都說要讓部長跟我呼喊口號今天我們不喊口號我們想要請部長閉上眼睛想像一下同理一下同學申請到了然後呢先用自己的錢電付了機票住宿刷卡飛了10個小時飛到西班牙剩下這個會議人生地不熟搭上客運火車好不容易到會場進到飯店結果呢"},{"start":9857.415,"end":9871.916,"text":"四處張望發現奇怪怎麼沒有這個研討會看到人各種語言交換之下發現沒有這個研討會透過網路連聯絡教授大家亂成一團人生地不熟一個人形單影資的在國外"},{"start":9872.992,"end":9895.688,"text":"是不是真的我覺得身心真的會受到打擊老實說我以前任教在學校我真的有聽說過這樣的事情學生回來非常難過身心都會受到嚴重的影響像類似這樣的研討會詐騙的網站一收一大把Dcard甚至有學生表示報名的這個連結是教授轉貼過來的"},{"start":9896.949,"end":9921.653,"text":"都付了錢發現是詐騙研討會每天可能都有學生受騙上當錢沒了畢業還受到影響壓力真的非常的大希望部長真的要能體會學生的絕望那其實有很多的方法可以去求證那我想請教一下就是說為什麼求證研討會是不是詐騙這樣的一個責任目前全部都落在學生的身上這是不是可以回應一下"},{"start":9923.213,"end":9943.431,"text":"謝謝委員因為委員是資訊的專家剛才委員提醒的有關資安的這方面教育部會持續的來加強尤其是外在環境委員知道這個問題那剛才委員提到的這個委員老委不好意思我剛才在請教師長對這個案其實沒有掌握但是剛才委員提到一句我就覺得他是教授"},{"start":9944.051,"end":9963.276,"text":"來轉給學生這個資訊這是他們詐騙集團大量的發送E-mail因為我們大專院校的E-mail全部都收得到嘛他就去爬蟲嘛按一個鈕可能就寄給全台灣的大專院校的教授啊那教授要升等啊缺點數啊學生也要畢業啊那教授可能就一個轉貼轉寄給學生的時候你去投一下"},{"start":9966.437,"end":9980.954,"text":"這其實很容易受騙這真的非常危險所以我想我們來看還不止真的是教育部要有作為教育部主管機關本身有教育部詐騙防治專區就點進去一看裡面在講什麼打擊黃牛票什麼幫行政院背書"},{"start":9986.201,"end":10009.362,"text":"結果怎麼樣AI的這個比賽馬上瞬間光速記小過學生被炸我們不理跟這個時代跟這個現狀脫節我相信也不是教育部希望那我想透過今天的質詢是不是我們有一些能做的那我想這個時間也不多啦我們就直接建設性的給部長一些建議跟意見好不好那希望你們可以研議首先"},{"start":10010.223,"end":10035.77,"text":"三日內可不可以立即的更新學術詐騙的樣態以及研討會詐欺的樣態把防制的方法放到網站上供所有的師生參考第二教育部應該立即正式的發案給學校要求校方正式並且保護學生尤其針對這樣的樣態以上兩點請問部長是不是能做到委員我想委員所提的這個建議都很必要因為剛才很詳細的聽委員在提那個"},{"start":10036.79,"end":10045.435,"text":"這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案"},{"start":10065.965,"end":10086.141,"text":"學生還不只被騙錢啊他如果去那邊如果護照被收走了怎麼辦他如果被關在房間裡面怎麼辦人生有安全了怎麼辦這個是非常危險的有沒有機會有一個窗口可以先以人工的方式來協助學生或老師可以送一個ticket去希望這個比較能夠判斷的人"},{"start":10088.143,"end":10108.384,"text":"可以在48小時內或我們也可以7天啦因為這個有時候出國還有一點時間嘛得到回覆來協助他們判定否則萬一學生非要國外指定的地點行單引資、沒收護照也可能發生控制人身自由也可能發生到時候我們難道連教育部都還要來援救我們的學生嗎這個有沒有機會來評估一下"},{"start":10110.786,"end":10118.396,"text":"委員剛才提的不管短期或中期的這個議題我覺得都非常必要可能需要跨部會做一些討論我們來給您一個以天見屠龍刀來保護學生長期方案"},{"start":10125.285,"end":10154.551,"text":"我們認為應該要建立學術版的美育儀事實查核中心我當然知道教育部資源有限我們是希望新的AI內閣要用技術來保護人民保護學生保護受教的權益我們認為是有機會可以用科技跟AI來建立這個樣態的判定你有個Line app你有個平台協助跟第三方甚至編列預算去幫忙或者鼓勵學校貢獻資料擴大民間合作也可以"},{"start":10155.071,"end":10160.993,"text":"我們認為學術信心指數甚至都比這個impact factor還要重要你還沒拿到impact factor之前可能就被騙了這真的是非常非常危險所以我們認為希望在一個月內有沒有機會去建立學術的詐騙案件的填報平台剛剛那是短中長期"},{"start":10178.419,"end":10195.927,"text":"但是已經被騙了我覺得教育部要掌握好不好一個月內我們有沒有機會建立詐騙案件就是學術詐騙的填報平台到底有多少人被騙了有沒有人要申訴他可不可以上傳佐證的資料檔案大小不要太小不要那四妹都傳不上來"},{"start":10197.128,"end":10208.589,"text":"希望能夠收集到的這些案件可以給予協助去在3個月內提出相關的補救措施以上意見能不能請部長待會去研議兩週之內書面回覆我們研議的情形"},{"start":10210.009,"end":10230.178,"text":"委員這個部分我想在整個學術詐騙的這方面跟過去那個層出不窮的學生是弱勢3萬塊5萬塊就是他所有的身家了我想委員我們在兩週把目前剛才委員所提的我們重整做一個了解跟掌握那後面我們想在再分階段來做後面的實施好不好"},{"start":10230.578,"end":10254.858,"text":"好 我想最後一點點時間剛剛我們提到的是這個防範學術詐欺可以運用AI那我們認為整個教育部都要導入AI的思維AI的人才可能會開始進入短缺我們新政府說是AI內閣但是紐約時報有說最新的消息AI人才最大生產國不是美國竟然是中國大陸佔了半數以上那我們台灣勒"},{"start":10256.339,"end":10274.231,"text":"美國、日本、新加坡全世界都在爭AI的人才我們的人才是否足夠我們查了一下長庚大學有智慧運算學院亞洲大學也有臺師大只有研究所臺大是只有AI中心還是NVIDIA出錢經濟部來協助的教育部這邊"},{"start":10276.553,"end":10282.596,"text":"有沒有掌握我們112學年度大概是1905位的AI相關的學生但是我們的人才缺口其實會越來越擴大數位產業署也評估了其實我們新增的人數的成長可能會遠遠趕不上需求我們可以看到各種大公司國際的公司都在競爭AI人才"},{"start":10303.467,"end":10318.008,"text":"Microsoft AI是用人才acquisition hiring的方式大批大批的在搶AI的人才特斯拉執行長也提出超高年薪在搶AI的人才事實上我們看到國科會有推動很多的計畫"},{"start":10318.989,"end":10325.112,"text":"4年來耗了4.1億但只有97個人留下來國發會的這個就業金卡一整年只網路到372人但是我們卻是人才超大的輸出幾十萬人是大學畢業的輸出到國外更不用講未來這些AI人才我想請教一下我們是不是應該我們新的內閣我們是不是幫一點忙給新的AI內閣做一點準備能不能建立跨部會的監督機制跟國發會、國科會"},{"start":10348.562,"end":10360.07,"text":"數位部我們來針對AI人才的跨國流動問題在一個月內將演繹的情況以書面提供給本席的辦公室有沒有機會我請要跟委員報告現在其實行政院我們有幾個跨部會是長期就是比較用各類產業所需要的人才在做整個跨部會之間的協調我想這個在新的內閣組成這一定會提供一下不好意思主席再給我10秒鐘20秒"},{"start":10375.6,"end":10399.774,"text":"10秒好我們這個青少年高失業率11%是一般人的3倍但是高達73%的雇主表示找不到適合的人才學用落差的問題我相信其實是一個非常大的挑戰希望可以有相關研議的結果包含今天所有議題交給行政院部長一同為教育的百年大計一起努力好不好我們會把今天委員所提的一些我們整理一下好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長好謝謝接下來我們請林怡錦委員"},{"start":10405.575,"end":10406.375,"text":"趙薇好"},{"start":10416.611,"end":10441.217,"text":"部長好部長要跟您進入今天的主題之前我先提一件事情就是台北大學有發生這個學校端的高層疑似介入這個學生會的選舉干涉這個學生自治組織運作的事件那學校端雖然否認可是對話截圖都有了那請問教育部有掌握狀況嗎因為台北大學最近的狀況確實特別多"},{"start":10444.798,"end":10449.901,"text":"這件事我們會持續再了解因為學生有反映這個意見照我應該這樣子講如果今天用各種的條件等等的去鼓勵學生或這個我覺得不是我們可接受樂見的一般參與學生自治當然老師鼓勵"},{"start":10463.129,"end":10463.149,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":10478.844,"end":10503.474,"text":"現在就是說因為台北大學最近也發生蠻多事情的像前陣子有一個就是他好像臨時要把一個這個宿舍把他關閉然後吳育錦就要關閉然後他又讓人家搬遷然後在那個所謂的這個學生代表在會議中要發言然後也被強迫關麥等等啦所以這個台北大學現在的學校端不曉得發生什麼事情我想還是請教育部跟他們溝通一下"},{"start":10505.596,"end":10520.067,"text":"另外我想針對今天的主題就是教改的問題我想教改這個30年來當然有它的局限跟缺點可是我不認為真的有像一些特定人士所說的"},{"start":10520.447,"end":10539.741,"text":"就是說那麼的一無是處教育跟知識的普及不是壞事可是我們應當進一步去想說該如何在大學的量能充足之下也要兼顧教育資源的配置跟教育品質跟教育公共化的這個議題那我想1990年我們回顧一下1990年高職教育是主流"},{"start":10544.605,"end":10567.741,"text":"那大部分的國中生畢業之後進入技職體系那可是當然近年來高職的學生占比明顯降低那甚至在108學年度已經跌破了五成跟就讀一般的高中生出現的黃金交叉那另外我們在看根據我們這個應屆的畢業生的升學就業的概況調查來看"},{"start":10569.202,"end":10587.637,"text":"一百一十學年升學到私立大學的學生有8.8萬人占升學者的五成七那公立大學的是四成那所以換句話說私立大學比起公立大學承接了更多的學生"},{"start":10588.377,"end":10610.154,"text":"那如果以上兩大點都涉及了所謂的教育資源的分配所以才要請問部長說那我們如何面對計職人才的流失那有什麼具體的策略那再請部長說明說我們為了追求教育的公共化那以達成說公立學校的學生數過半為目標這個目標你是否認同"},{"start":10611.311,"end":10617.057,"text":"謝謝委員因為確實在我們國內我們說在高中階段其實本來就有一個風軌那早期就讀技職體系包含武專因為我們多數的武專也都是比較以技職為主所以可以看得出來那個量是很清楚占比也高"},{"start":10634.233,"end":10650.764,"text":"因為當時的大學入學比例很窄所以反過來家長的想法各方面大概認為說孩子有一技之長也可以來做發展那個是那個時空當然施玉琳教改我早上也跟很多委員報告當時的時空確實台灣是面對一個"},{"start":10658.189,"end":10675.242,"text":"教育是被嚴格的規範單一的標準所以才有410這麼多的團體出來希望教育鬆綁希望能夠適度的再增加孩子如果有機會升學包含教育的現代化等等的這些措施"},{"start":10676.522,"end":10702.954,"text":"這樣的變革我們也應該說如果也剛好碰到台灣也其實在少子化在這個過程這30年當中的87年左右因為我一直在注意這個相關就發現整個聲援已經減少了那當然到目前為止看起來這個趨勢還是一直在下降當中所以用現在去看因為當時的改制升格速度真的快了一點當時在10年不到時間"},{"start":10704.295,"end":10728.772,"text":"就大部分都如雨後重生尤其是武專大量改變了當時武專佔比率是相當高幾乎佔當時大專校園的一半但是後來都通通改制了如果從這種角度來看當然大家會覺得說當時為什麼要開放這麼多造成現在學校過剩的現象但是如果從整體上來講我還是必須要提到說"},{"start":10730.353,"end":10759.512,"text":"未來整個不管產業的發展等等的發展已經不是那麼侷限在單一領域單一專長的概念即使我們應該是說這個現象之後退場是一件很為難的事但不得不但是如何在教育上能夠讓孩子能夠學到更多甚至於具備更多專長還有跨領域的這個在未來他銜接未來的職業發展這是我覺得我們應該更加的努力啦因為這部分"},{"start":10759.992,"end":10776.141,"text":"才會說人少了其實各個都是需要國家好好栽培的對象不是只有讀書這件事情當然當然因為現在在台灣貢獻很大的社會界產業界好多也未必都是一路升學表現最好的俗稱的學霸我覺得未必對"},{"start":10777.201,"end":10801.513,"text":"所以剛剛部長我有提到就是說當然追求教育公共化是我們的很大的一個追求的目標那所以說如果說未來有沒有可能是公立的院校會大於私立的院校就承接更多的學生這樣的一個目標我說你這樣你認同嗎委員當然就讀公立那是公共化的一環"},{"start":10803.434,"end":10815.698,"text":"在措施上就讀私立學校比如像蔡總統脈總統這邊提出的政策主張把這個學費私校的學費目標也比較希望能夠讓孩子在選擇的過程當中"},{"start":10817.679,"end":10817.699,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":10836.243,"end":10837.003,"text":"我相信以少子化生源的發展"},{"start":10852.948,"end":10859.715,"text":"因為對於就讀功力還是多數學生會把它做為優先選擇所以從招生的注冊率等等來看功力還是比私立在多數來講還是高我想那個是一個我覺得未來的趨勢但是政府我也覺得不是用過度強力的方式說一定維持我要增加多數功力的"},{"start":10877.532,"end":10903.471,"text":"因為私校對台灣社會還是有它的貢獻只是說教學品質這一件事我認為是政府要把關的對 就誠如部長所說其實少子化我覺得是一個衝擊可是也是一個轉機就是我們怎麼樣在高教能這個比起過去還要豐沛的那個情況之下重視值跟量的改革對 那這樣子才能讓這整個教育資源能落實在孩子的身上那我們來談到私校退場問題那今天"},{"start":10906.913,"end":10923.12,"text":"有那個大漢這個誇臉的大漢技術學院在那個我們立法院門口施聲來做陳抗那他們今天就是為了要揭露這個學校董事會怎麼樣掏空校產那他們擅自宣布他們要停招停辦"},{"start":10924.301,"end":10941.942,"text":"沒有依照所謂的我們私校退場條例的這個路徑在走那他們特別是他們是先斬後奏他們是先宣告要停辦了然後下學年就要停招了然後在4月份才開說明會等等那不曉得你們對這個事情有所掌握"},{"start":10942.882,"end":10952.266,"text":"我想跟你們報告當然大漢技術學院如果以我們目前的法規我們本來就是依法它在各方面並沒有出現被我們列為叫做專輔的學校預警沒有專輔也沒有"},{"start":10958.029,"end":10959.791,"text":"教育部部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":10979.047,"end":10993.474,"text":"我認為這個依法行政來做這件事情是目前來講教育部會去堅持的程序尤其是他如果真的因為招生真的狀況很不好因為他現在所掌握到的日監部加起來全校這個科系總共不到200人100多個學生"},{"start":10998.396,"end":11020.975,"text":"那是不是能夠持續的為止這個其實董事會當然他會依法去做評估那之後如果他提出停辦的計畫教育部一定會很嚴格的要求在於教職員工以及學生的權益的維護還有學校怎麼去應變這個是我們最後審查同不同意一個非常重要的關鍵也會經過私校諮詢會的專業在這上面做判斷來做把關"},{"start":11026.859,"end":11050.38,"text":"稍指化的影響我想是全面性的所以我們最表象看到的就是說他的班級數學生數跟學生跟教師的比例方面以我們台南市為例我們今年小一的新生相較去年就少了1000人這已經是連續兩年新生明顯下降那預估明後年還會更少不過有一個特殊的狀況就是我們的"},{"start":11051.201,"end":11062.633,"text":"即將升國一的小六新生因為在柔年出生所以他增加了3100多人所以我們今年的小學是減班可是國中卻是增班請問部長有沒有盤整過全台的狀況我想這不是特例應該每個縣市都有這樣的"},{"start":11070.881,"end":11089.733,"text":"張偉你所提的這個就是現在的整體的趨勢對那這如何因應我跟張偉報告因為當然以目前我們都可以看到已出生的就從就是一二年年底就知道那個數據包含前一年是這些都是繼承已有的這些數字那也看得出這個波段"},{"start":11091.494,"end":11107.952,"text":"所以在這個過程教育部為什麼會在國中國小因為是義務教育階段那如果做學校徵檢班或甚至有沒有病校廢校其實是有一個非常清楚的規範在給地方政府來做一個依詢那當然"},{"start":11110.474,"end":11126.748,"text":"確保學生的受教權益跟就學權益這是我們在處理的原則你如果說學校真的縣市真的要治病了你必須要考慮學生他的就學如果說要到好遠你要必須考慮是不是直接要讓學生每天要搭一個小時多少的車程才能上學義務教育階段這不妥當"},{"start":11128.87,"end":11151.448,"text":"所以這些都是我們要求地方政府要做這個考慮的時候你應該把這些都一併的要提出尤其要跟社區來做溝通說明這個我想還是一個最大的前提當然這個少子化的趨勢在義務教育階段比較不能像大學大專校我們現在是很努力的跟大學校園公司力一起努力的來對於國際"},{"start":11153.81,"end":11154.471,"text":"接下來我們請張雅玲委員"},{"start":11191.843,"end":11194.505,"text":"謝謝教委,那我們有請潘部長部長好部長好,就是說我想剛剛前面大家很多人談那個410教改啊但我想要來做一個還原當你的410教改的主張其實是廣設公立大學20所公立大學讓這個知識可以普及嘛但跟我們後來實際上執行的其實是在做法上面有不一樣那也造成了這個達成目標略有不同"},{"start":11221.06,"end":11230.619,"text":"當年我們是二十所公立大學但是後來我們做的其實是所有的技專院校全面升格從我們的這個院校"},{"start":11232.826,"end":11257.211,"text":"人數從83年58所大專院校到後來我們其實達到了145總數來到159所所以這個其實就會造成我們現在要來處理這些大學退場的這個問題私校退場的問題但是其實我自己會覺得就算我們現在沒有處理大學坦白說以少子化的問題我們還是要來處理專科退場的這個問題所以不管怎麼樣我們現在就是來面對問題解決問題"},{"start":11259.517,"end":11264.083,"text":"現在我們有這麼多的大學數可是我們要退場的學校應該不是只有目前的4所"},{"start":11275.96,"end":11291.377,"text":"但是我收到的資料目前只有這4所然後還有就是剛剛講的這個大漢技術學院會在113年停招那我想了解就是說以我們目前的一個推估人數你看我們4年之後我們大一新生人數即將減少5萬那"},{"start":11294.941,"end":11313.292,"text":"不管怎麼樣我們可以看到我標籤這個紅色的黑色的方框在117年是15萬接下來即便是農年會有一些增加但是持續上在127年之後大概就是15萬以下所以基本上人數就是會減少那我們現在只有這四所學校嗎那我們如何來因應這個"},{"start":11315.854,"end":11331.072,"text":"4年之後的這個問題呢?是 跟委員報告齁 剛才委員所提的這四所他已經不是專輔學校了 已經就是正式停辦後面正在做後續有關停辦後的財產清點啊 學生安置等等的"},{"start":11331.693,"end":11336.696,"text":"目前大專校院以私校退場條例的指標目前大學校院是沒有專輔的學校但是從這個聲援可以出來我們還是會嚴謹地去檢視目前在這些相關的私校是不是會出現有關財務危機或影響教學品質等等的這些訊息我們會持續地掌握"},{"start":11361.63,"end":11368.699,"text":"對這個因為其實我看一下這個數字齁因為我把私校的名額加起來就差不多這五萬就差不多是他的三分之一耶好那"},{"start":11369.713,"end":11391.741,"text":"我想就是說我們應該還是要來盡快的去做更明確的掌握啦因為我覺得一個非常重要的東西是說因為你到後來才處理的時候這學生老師的衝擊都是非常大我們應該要有一些相關的預警作用或是提醒的方式讓這些你剛剛講到我們好像有做一些掌握嘛那我們現在針對這些掌握學校有沒有做一些預警跟提醒或是怎麼樣去做一些調整剛剛講的員額的調整等等的"},{"start":11393.942,"end":11416.481,"text":"委員報告因為現在從大院這邊通過我們執行私校退場條例後其實各大學已經更嚴肅面對了因為以往可能在這個上面大家也會覺得從學校能夠營運其實沒有那麼但是以現在來看教育部所掌握到的為什麼比如像大漢他為什麼學校董事會"},{"start":11418.403,"end":11422.626,"text":"會開始誤死的去說因為整個日月間不加起來總共學生180幾位他要去支撐這個學校的運作我是舉這個例子雖然當然從老師教師團體或等會有一些其他的疑慮但是這個我用這個例子就是跟委員報告現在的學校會更誤死的去面對這樣的議題那至於說在後續當然也不是只有學校"},{"start":11444.805,"end":11465.457,"text":"我想這個問題包含還有私立的高中校私立的高中職其實也是需要進入這些規劃的對可是我說因為我們人數就是一直在下降我們是不是我覺得這件事情我們還是要有規劃因為我們時間有限了我覺得我們一定要有規劃不能夠就這樣子就過去了這是師生直接的影響"},{"start":11466.617,"end":11486.954,"text":"那再來就是說其實這些退場學校其實他們後來追蹤之後發現他們的退學率都很高欸轉退學率你看高美藝專達到了38%台灣觀光學院也達到了32%其實都是十幾二十%以上的一個數字那我自己後來我不曉得了解部長有沒有了解為什麼學生後來的這個轉退學率會達到這麼高呢"},{"start":11489.03,"end":11506.731,"text":"我跟委員報告那當然有一些學校我們自己要坦白的說也會受到限制比如以委員所提的台灣觀光學院的這個學校因為位在花蓮那花蓮我們能夠安置你不可能把東部的孩子安不到"},{"start":11507.051,"end":11508.392,"text":"在討論私校退場條例．"},{"start":11524.14,"end":11528.003,"text":"這個學校沒有辦法在整體主體沒有辦法在經營的情況之下能不能讓孩子有機會是在他原來所在的區域甚至校區鄰近做這個我想我們再研議因為當時在審條例的時候大家有談到這樣的問題這個也可能會是為什麼會以這個為例如果孩子真的太遠或什麼他有可能好多的因素會也造成"},{"start":11551.161,"end":11575.255,"text":"對,因為其實我覺得因為後來有做一些研究調查嘛就是有外面學界有做一些調查就是說其實學生就是因為受到剛剛講的距離可能太遠了或是他去新的這個學校沒有辦法提供給他相關的這些學習可能要補學分啊什麼變成他一個很沉重的經濟壓力所以我自己會覺得說為什麼我剛剛講的我們一定要有一些規劃幫助這些孩子不然這些孩子可能就會離開"},{"start":11577.516,"end":11601.965,"text":"再來就是說我們在看到這一頁就是說部分區域它將會缺乏技職教育像我們現在看到的這個雲林縣這個環球科大會退場嘉義市、花蓮縣、大漢技術學院那現在只剩下這些學校那當時我們在講教改的時候還有講到一個很重要的重點就是在地的產業連結跟在地的區域的人才的培養所以我們現在在這些區域可能就會發生這個人才"},{"start":11604.607,"end":11626.208,"text":"會有這個斷層的問題所以我們接下來剛剛有提到說我們可能幫他再找一些資源來協助那我就在因為當時那個部長在去年的時候在教育委員會備選的時候有提到說要規劃但是目前都還沒有看到所以我想要幫這些孩子去詢問一下他們是可以用校外專班的方式來進行嗎如果以花蓮這個例子來為例的話他們是可以用這個"},{"start":11629.691,"end":11653.572,"text":"這個就是當時要討論的配套之一因為就是說因為這就是一個過渡期就是說學生的學籍也許已經歸到臨近的某個大學校院學籍但是上課的地點因為剛才我們談到原因我們有追蹤過有不少是進修部的孩子因為他本身就是一邊工作一邊你要把他移到其他地方他最後的選項可能乾脆我就不要繼續學業了"},{"start":11654.833,"end":11664.155,"text":"所以當時在談這件事情的時候就比較說有沒有可能以舊地就是原來的部分因為我們現在都會跟退場的學校的學生座談主要也了解到他們真正的需求這個機制是可以啟動的只要有需求因為你要成一個專班也表示說有幾個是比較相同的情形"},{"start":11680.219,"end":11707.304,"text":"好 我了解所以就變成是說我們現在目前的做法就是最大就是可以搭配的措施啦因為我跟委員報告的意思也就是說如果這個留下來的孩子已經可以用專班的方式來救原校弟來進行他的繼續學業我們覺得這個是比較必要的措施好 所以我現在要問一下我就直接問所以環球大同跟大漢這些學校的學生我們都已經我們接下來會做一些座談然後跟他們討論"},{"start":11708.624,"end":11708.904,"text":"對,所以我們現在跟環球科大談了嗎?是"},{"start":11723.992,"end":11746.253,"text":"4月25日所以我們都有在安排我主要就是掌握這一個部分那再來就是說因為其實在這個怡花東部分現在是也沒有相關的理工的技職大學因為他現在留下來可能就是東華跟這個所謂的慈濟那我自己在想另外一個方向因為剛剛我們其實還是有缺工的問題然後還有就是企業其實要這些人才可是好像沒有辦法具備這樣子相同的能力"},{"start":11746.653,"end":11775.369,"text":"我們是不是可以跟勞動部的職業訓練中心來談一下也許學生的選擇他並不是想要升學他想要去就業我們這部分是可以來協助學生往這個方向去發展如果我們跟勞動部跨部會我想這個本來就有一個平台如果學生我先跟我們報告一下如果以東部這邊因為當時慈濟跟慈濟科大要合併我們的要求就是他原來的慈濟科大的科系入學管道一定要維持"},{"start":11777.59,"end":11803.367,"text":"目前他大概有681位的這個技專校院的名誉包含四季二季跟五專這個就是當時我們考慮到以東部地區的孩子當有需求的時候他就是一個選項所以不會因為慈濟科大跟慈濟大學合併後就減少了這個也我們考慮過這個地方的技職體系一定要維持好謝謝部長那Boss我再問一個最後一個問題就是說"},{"start":11805.663,"end":11828.565,"text":"我們現在因為我們就是出生人口數是越來越少那這幾年我們其實持續的在減班啦那國小基本上就是在海景第一排就是少了非常多學生很多學校都廢校啊那我想要講一個重點就是說今年其實有發生一個狀況就是說11學年度抱歉11學年度其實有發生一個狀況就是說我們學校在下學期突然就說它廢校了"},{"start":11829.505,"end":11852.847,"text":"這個彰化的學校那就會造成學生突然我怎麼才開始我就要做這個心理很大的衝擊馬上我就要離開這個學校然後家長要趕快去講去做接續的一些處理但我自己會覺得說我們其實因為這的確是小校也會有這樣子像剛剛講的這個缺生的問題我們是不是也有幫助地方政府去推估未來的一些人數然後或是不是也會有告訴他們你相關的一些"},{"start":11853.507,"end":11855.448,"text":"教育部有班型一個國中國小因為是義務教育有一個學校如果要做整併甚至廢校的這個一個辦法"},{"start":11875.878,"end":11904.124,"text":"這辦法裡面有非常清楚的規範你地方政府要做這個決定前的相關的作業包含學生的就學潛意的維護社區的溝通可是從這個彰化的案例就是都沒有最後地方政府即使做了這個也必須到到敲一步做最後的核備原因就是要做這個把關所以這個議題我們當然比如說你需要根本縣市還沒有做到這一段我們就會要求你必須去做因為比如說配套做是很重要"},{"start":11905.565,"end":11933.203,"text":"因為像當時就是說因為他已經講了雖然有開一些形式上面的公聽會但事實上就是沒有辦法改變這個結果所以這部分真的要請教育部積極的去督促當時設計為什麼要中央主管機關還是要有一個被查的就怕便宜形式之後學生的受教權益受影響當然在地方中小學中就是由地方政府在做主管在尊重他們但是那個過程跟要求我覺得是明確的"},{"start":11933.643,"end":11933.743,"text":"葉元芝委員"},{"start":11959.304,"end":11986.605,"text":"委員好部長我們今天是討論教改議題嘛講到教改就很難不講到一個人李遠哲啦因為我看到李遠哲昨天有出來謝哲他說其實教改沒有問題啦大家罵他是因為他2000年的時候支持民進黨你認同他講這句話嗎我不曉得李院長怎麼說啦他就這樣說啊 你認同嗎沒有啦 我這個尊重他的說法啦尊重 那你認同嗎"},{"start":11987.898,"end":11988.659,"text":"我們來看一下他2014年說什麼"},{"start":12009.718,"end":12033.794,"text":"他2014年因為是當時教改虧弄20年嘛今年是30年嘛那李遠哲講說他自己講到教改沒有成功是因為社會沒有公平正義那你自己就已經講了教改沒成功了嘛你在10年前說教改沒成功10年後你說教育教改很棒連劉德英都稱讚我那我不懂這個李遠哲是不是10年來是不同的李遠哲講話可以這樣子前後矛盾啊"},{"start":12034.554,"end":12039.299,"text":"然後我們再來看廣設大學和他有沒有關係喔我們特別去看人民"},{"start":12041.364,"end":12068.031,"text":"當時就30年前教改會的報告你可以看到他其中有一個建議就是要發展各具特色高等學府其中就包括要綜合型大學研究型大學技術學院多元技術學院科技大學開放大學社區學院要容納所有要接受不同型代高等教育的人口那台灣這麼小大學這麼有限你要符合這麼多的特色這麼多的類型你不管設大學要怎麼完成要怎麼達到"},{"start":12069.071,"end":12093.658,"text":"所以這就明明就是當時他們的建議嘛現在可以甩鍋說這個東西跟他無關然後再來我們來看當時他說高等要發展廣設大學各具特色的高等教育學府有什麼配套措施我們來看他其中有一項他其中有一項就說要讓要解除學費的限制要讓各大學開放隨便他們去收學費我就問啊經歷了這30年經歷了這30年我沒有開放學費限制嗎"},{"start":12097.819,"end":12122.092,"text":"有放寬嗎?沒有!我們不僅是沒有放寬而且我們現在是讓大家學費幾乎一樣因為我們現在有補助私校的學生所以30年來他所謂的配套和他當時的主張根本背道而馳然後我們再來看當時的教改會也有推動一個叫做多元入學方案李遠哲說這個入學這是他講的2014年他說的他說多元入學考試"},{"start":12123.615,"end":12152.674,"text":"就是不公不義啦因為他會造成更大的落差因為鄉下的孩子會提早在多元入學的這個規則下面出局這是他的原話我一個字都沒有加然後你去看他民國85年他的報告上面就寫著要推動多元入學制度就他講的喔然後甚至於多元入學制度的配套是什麼呢他的目標是什麼呢他寫說長期我們整個入學我們要以申請為主"},{"start":12154.195,"end":12154.896,"text":"現在推增加那個是超過50%"},{"start":12180.93,"end":12186.653,"text":"我現在要講就是說一個當初提出要教改的人講話前後矛盾然後當初的主張後來不敢承認甚至於後來他的講法已經打臉了他當時的主張"},{"start":12209.364,"end":12220.002,"text":"那這證明什麼一件事這證明說我們教改就失敗了嘛如果沒有失敗的話那教改會的召集人何必講話要這樣前後矛盾我都不曉得哪一個是李遠哲了啊"},{"start":12220.731,"end":12243.952,"text":"所以現在被改的亂七八糟 難道教育部你們不應該可是快要換部長了但是現在還有一個多月難道教育部不該召開一個全國的教育會議嗎把這30年來這種亂七八糟亂象重新做一個檢討嗎不管是入學的升學制度或者是大學的這個廣設大學所造成的後遺症"},{"start":12245.233,"end":12273.585,"text":"那麼多的問題 難道真的不應該開一個會讓大家重新定一個未來的發展方向嗎?部長你覺得咧?各位委員報告 教育一直都在演變 環境也一直在演變適時的讓各界來參與 把現況做一些討論跟我覺得是有必要的因為教育跟著快的速度非常快 產業變化我也知道那個絕對不是我們當時所想像所以整個30年台灣教育的變革即使是多面向"},{"start":12274.525,"end":12291.078,"text":"那碰到掃紙零化後﹐確實我們面對當時本來所希望讓孩子有更多接受高等教育的機會以現在來看﹐確實是跟掃紙化這個有很大的分隔因為你都沒有正確我的問題回答啦我給你十幾秒﹐沒關係我是覺得如果要負責任的話應該真的要召開一個全國會議因為說實在的教改30年他當初定的是一個長程的規劃"},{"start":12300.606,"end":12325.102,"text":"但是這個長程都沒有達到所以我們是應該再開一個會再重新訂一個短程、中程、長程的規劃如果說你每一年再做小幅的調整削除市旅我覺得是達不到那個目標的啦所以希望教育部可以真的是召集全國專家徹底的檢討一下那也就是因為李遠哲他們廣設大學造成現在有很多大學要退場了嘛對吧"},{"start":12325.982,"end":12345.34,"text":"我們看到這個是教育部給我們的報告裡面就寫的一百年是我們所有學校的高峰163間嘛那112年現在只剩145間所以其實大學退場是很快的那現在很多大學因為因應超高齡的社會所以實際上是想要把原本的學校的校地去轉做長照對吧應該是這樣對不對"},{"start":12347.04,"end":12361.034,"text":"應該說有些學校如果設有相關這個科系他是可以這樣分社好那問題就在這裡了其實很多學校他們是設在偏鄉因為很多準備要退場的學校就是在偏鄉偏鄉他就是"},{"start":12361.815,"end":12361.995,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12381.03,"end":12407.097,"text":"可不可以是在一定的規定底下讓他們也可以去應該不是唯一護理系是跟相關科系這個從學校來講因為學校主體還是辦學如果說他能夠增加這一方面科系的規劃而且也符合台灣未來高齡社會的需求教育部本身你的第一個就是他第一個門檻就比較高第二個教育部要更精益去輔導因為現在退場的非常多的學校然後第二我給教育部一個建議"},{"start":12408.837,"end":12426.722,"text":"比如說如果有這些學校他未來退場之後做長照或做高齡教育你們要去稽查你們要去考核就是他高齡教育到底做得怎麼樣因為根據我個人我之前研究或是我的觀察很多高齡教育都開個課程常常被來上有吃東西的認識一些人就結束這個對於活躍老化一點幫助都沒有"},{"start":12427.282,"end":12441.055,"text":"你真正要做活躍老化應該是一個班級你有系統性的針對身體心理心靈甚至人際健康各方面的課程規劃還有前側後側有一個整體系統性的讓他們來上這個才有幫助"},{"start":12443.377,"end":12467.817,"text":"如果一般只是說來這邊老人共餐一下然後上個課然後怎麼一個禮拜來兩天然後愛來不來的其實這個效果是非常有限所以我們如果要做高齡教育我們要認真做要因應高齡社會的變化再來就是說未來的我們現在對待長輩的態度也要跟以前不一樣過去大家對待長輩就是好像就把長輩業務放在衛生局或放在社會局衛生局就是說"},{"start":12468.617,"end":12497.61,"text":"你讓你健康好一點不要用太多健保社會就會給你一點福利現在對待長輩不是用這種態度他們已經成為我們社會的主體了我們要把長輩當作目的不是只是把他當作好像會連累我們社會的一群人我們要以他們為主所以你在做高齡教育的時候也要實際上去調查這些長輩他實際上他想要學的課程是什麼他能不能透過他比如退休之後學習到東西可以補足他這人生也許他兒童年齡童年時代的缺憾"},{"start":12497.97,"end":12513.95,"text":"就說大家要去調查一下長輩的需求所以我覺得大學退場做長照我非常支持希望教育部可以鬆綁看是法律上面還是怎麼樣然後要協助要去幫助他們要去精進這高齡教育的課程我覺得才是我覺得才是比較有幫助的啦"},{"start":12514.755,"end":12516.195,"text":"主席我要增加他30秒因為他扯到那裡我肯定委員還這麼說"},{"start":12542.02,"end":12543.781,"text":"現在你知道大學大學現在面臨到一個問題就是除了招生困難之外還要留下學生你知道嗎"},{"start":12568.377,"end":12568.737,"text":"最後我在30秒我講一下"},{"start":12598.273,"end":12609.641,"text":"這是我一個陳情案有代理教師跟我陳情他說為什麼他們從別的縣市轉任過來到其他縣市過去在別的縣市的代理教師年資不能夠銜接這個部長你知道這個問題嗎這個有一個釋憲案我覺得問題根本就不需要釋憲嘛"},{"start":12615.846,"end":12635.958,"text":"你教育部不能把這個東西推給地方啦為什麼呢因為每一個縣市政府也有約聘人員嘛那約聘人員能不能夠累積他過去在別的地方的年資都是可以為什麼因為這是中央統定定定的規定啊那為什麼只有在代理教師這一塊你就說我要尊重我要去尊重什麼地方自治各縣市自己決定"},{"start":12636.798,"end":12649.634,"text":"這是教育部不願意沒有肩膀把這個東西甩鍋給地方你只要有肩膀你直接定說這個東西跟地方政府的約聘人員一樣我們統一一定要銜接年資就結了嘛為什麼要讓代理教師去釋憲"},{"start":12651.438,"end":12668.065,"text":"我突然覺得那代理教師很可憐欸代理教師不是教師嗎?不是軍公教人員嗎?他們沒有去學校上課嗎?為什麼他們還需要為了自己權益去打憲法官司?部長你看到你的下面的這些老師你要照顧的老師需要這樣子維護自己權益你都不會覺得很難過喔?"},{"start":12668.965,"end":12680.269,"text":"委員 我們所努力的 包含代理老師的敘心 這都是在去年大家一起努力 跟縣市一起努力啦 委員你在縣市也服過 你知道這些訊息啊"},{"start":12685.931,"end":12707.263,"text":"我先講回答委員的問題 我先講是累積年資的問題委員 代理老師要不是去年全國一致 代理老師的聘用連12個月幾個月都是不一致這個我都支持你啦 我現在講的是別的議題啦不是啦 委員我們大家一起努力啦 應該這樣說你肩膀扛起來 你發一個文 各縣市政府說代理教師就跟縣市政府約聘人員一樣 全國統一適用 所有年資都可以累積"},{"start":12711.485,"end":12713.066,"text":"接下來請吳春成委員"},{"start":12737.759,"end":12762.876,"text":"好 我們謝謝岳元智委員對我們在這個高齡教育的議題觀念上面是完全一致共同努力那我們請這個潘部長好 請部長我現在為 今天都在談這個為私校請命然後開放私校的轉型重啟教育的生機"},{"start":12765.871,"end":12780.471,"text":"那這一題大家前面都有關注過了那這個教改30年然後現在大學廣設大學過剩那其實這個是一個看起來"},{"start":12782.458,"end":12786.48,"text":"因為這問題非常的複雜那我也相信我們的事務官都無力可回天"},{"start":12805.969,"end":12822.997,"text":"因為這問題很複雜接任的部長一開始一定很保守面對這麼複雜的問題所以看起來改革的機會其實不大這事情又要再逢逢不補三年那錯過時機所以今天我就是說"},{"start":12824.478,"end":12841.554,"text":"這個潘部長算是我們在位最久的教育部長你問題看得最深入所以過去很多事情人在江湖身不由己都可以理解啦但是呢也希望就是你可以這時候好好的把你的見解因為必須要有這樣的見解"},{"start":12842.395,"end":12842.575,"text":"首先我覺得"},{"start":12867.854,"end":12888.689,"text":"應該可以承認因為事情面對問題才有辦法解決問題廣設大學是錯誤的政策是嗎?部長我應該這樣子說其實我有詳細閱讀當時的審議報告書它其實是一個方向考量當時的但是在整個處理的過程我覺得我應該這樣子說第一個是結構的問題當時增設的滿多都是從專科到"},{"start":12894.333,"end":12894.453,"text":"在這個過程當中"},{"start":12924.488,"end":12944.202,"text":"這過程當中我們不是在追究責任其實這也不是你做的當時也不是30年前的事情只是說這一條路線至少從人口結構當中當時就是用前面這個金字塔型的但是這個整個變遷過程當中你可以看得出來我們現在你看1970年0到14歲39.7%"},{"start":12952.668,"end":12969.696,"text":"到2011年只剩下10.2%剩下三分之一四分之一這個是一定的趨勢所以未來一定這個問題會繼續目前還不是探底的時候所以我們必須要面對問題承認問題我們才有辦法改善 來"},{"start":12974.269,"end":12991.279,"text":"但是好改善也沒有關係就是現在看起來從我們的退場條例之後這個退場好像只剩下唯一的路而且這個退場條例目前的這個政策有加速死刑"},{"start":12992.369,"end":12993.831,"text":"請問這樣子教育部準備好了嗎?"},{"start":13011.886,"end":13026.493,"text":"根本報告這個當然少子化是一個很清楚的數據那現在為根本報告今天的報告也特別提出來在大學校園其實台灣這個高校的資源還有我們的素質其實是不錯"},{"start":13027.594,"end":13045.312,"text":"面對這方面除了國內的生源減少其實這一段很努力的在做兩件我講關鍵的一個就是學校能夠在整個數量跟自己的經營上做一個比較合理的我們講的叫做事格的瘦身這個是一個因為過去有學學校是這樣的做法"},{"start":13045.632,"end":13045.652,"text":"謝謝部長"},{"start":13073.869,"end":13101.06,"text":"其實我是來自於企業啦企業當中有一個心法就是主力就是進步的動力沒有天下沒有那一個很順的我們看到廣設大學政策然後就哇大學一直很多嘛那些因為少子化退場一定會下降嘛有沒有辦法讓它再重生其實企業喔企業是不斷的因為人都很舒適的在一條如果事情都是順境的話都不會改革都不會改變"},{"start":13102,"end":13123.663,"text":"同樣的我們在公部門當中遇到的這就是改革的最佳時機啦如果很順的話我們也不用討論這個問題但是呢我們行政部門我們是重啟教育的生機就是在這時候最好的時機啦如果你很順沒有人會聽你的話啦所以遇到困難就是我們進步的動力有這個"},{"start":13125.356,"end":13146.312,"text":"但是呢我們現在都只看到夕陽都在等著它下山下山下山以後有什麼就會更好嗎而且會帶來多大災難其實有沒有看到這個虛的所以現在整個的就是重退場輕轉型說的心意都在做退場那企業如果是企業不會這樣做事情"},{"start":13146.852,"end":13167.108,"text":"議員．"},{"start":13167.642,"end":13188.09,"text":"那當然這個已經有提到過的第三人生大學這個日本現在在這個就是剛才提到我們的岳燕姿委員提到的就不是現在的樂齡大學把他當作休閒啦而是重啟他的第三人生因為我們的大學為什麼都是只是讓16歲入學呢不能讓60歲入學呢這個也是一個很奇怪的觀念"},{"start":13189.71,"end":13215.605,"text":"16歲入學就是從第一人生要培養第二人生那我們現在人生多出一個第三人生出來從第二人生進入第三人生當然你也要進大學啊60歲不是進年老院而是進大學希望教育部高喊這樣子的主張會振奮人心啊現在這個有600萬人在等著教育部這樣子振奮人心的有決心我們要往這條路走而且呼籲大家"},{"start":13218.147,"end":13239.255,"text":"有一個很充實的實現自我而且會讓整個社會讓台灣更強壯讓整個產業而且下一代有希望我跟委員報告上次跟委員請教得到委員這個訊息之後我為什麼會請鍾先生儘快組成一個專案小組原因我就覺得說在既有這樣的一個基礎上"},{"start":13240.155,"end":13263.546,"text":"是不是委員所提到的這個能夠就有部分的學校可以開始做這方面展開這個我想後續來請委員繼續指教了好那最後這個就是這個現在那個部長也很感謝部長對第三人生大學有認同而且現在有推動小組我們也跟推動小組討論不過現在目前好像還是在終身學習室"},{"start":13265.328,"end":13289.111,"text":"這個層次因為他們的編制跟位置跟經費是沒辦法解決這個問題的那請問現在有沒有一個組織一個編制是由次長什麼樣來督導為什麼說當時先組小組因為這個其實是應該就目前我們所要先做一個盤整那這個後續我贊同委員剛才提到的"},{"start":13289.851,"end":13305.578,"text":"如果就教育部這個體系而言是應該要跨過終身師因為這個裡面很多都跟高教技職這兩個師啦如果後續這個我想比較合理的規劃會是請督導的一位次長來擔任召集人"},{"start":13306.658,"end":13317.504,"text":"那個部長你可不可以就要交代至少你要把這個交下去不然的話就是好不容易我們很努力的走到這裡因為時間有點短但是委員當時我跟委員報告說這個我覺得有必要我就啟動那我想現在目前他也找相關實務跟這個學界有一些討論我想這個基礎比較有一個輪廓後我想未來在推動上一定要跨市處"},{"start":13332.773,"end":13333.133,"text":"謝謝兩位接下來我們請奮雲委員"},{"start":13362.263,"end":13363.285,"text":"潘文忠列席"},{"start":13369.485,"end":13387.378,"text":"部長午安了我想今天大家關心的問題就是少子女化的浪潮大專院校如何因應首先我要先幫花蓮大漢技術學院的師生跟部長請命我知道剛剛林一金委員有問這題因為我早上有跟他們一起開記者會我覺得這個個案非常的重要因為部長應該記得當時我們在修私校退場條例的時候"},{"start":13397.225,"end":13412.141,"text":"我個人是主張同步修私校法那因為就是知道私校法的目的不是為了退場所以他對退場的規範相對是比較寬鬆的可是當時就是很多的原因我們沒有辦法一起修私校法"},{"start":13412.441,"end":13437.087,"text":"所以現在大漢技術學院等於是突襲教育部跟突襲他的師生他在財務還沒有看到問題的時候就要退場那我要講的是說退場本身不是個問題因為我們的確少子化學校很多可是退場的過程中如何保障師生權益還有就是校產的那個公共性的評估我覺得這是教育部有責任的那因為"},{"start":13438.888,"end":13460.03,"text":"剛剛我們民間的團體有很多的指責擔心董事會在財產方面可能有蠻多的議題那會淪為私人那教育部這邊是不是可以依照私校法你有的法律工具嚴格審查他相關的退場的計畫好嗎包含私生權益還有財產的公共性如何保障"},{"start":13460.45,"end":13460.49,"text":"主動退場"},{"start":13478.814,"end":13480.675,"text":"教育部部長潘文忠列席提醒教育部部長潘文忠列席提醒教育部部長潘文忠列席提醒教育部部長潘文忠列席提醒"},{"start":13502.242,"end":13502.402,"text":"最後一個臨時提案"},{"start":13522.338,"end":13522.478,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13552.778,"end":13580.913,"text":"嚴格幫忙監督也會後續 這是教育部的職責再來相關的問題因為今天我們討論了很多教改大學退場的部分一直有講到這個410教改那跟部長報告一下我當年有參加410是學生的代表之一所以非常的了解當時的四大訴求也非常了解教改前學校的困境我們這個世代是在"},{"start":13581.693,"end":13600.824,"text":"有體罰的情況下像部長講的小學一班60幾人我們到現在同學會的時候同學還在分享當年看到老師體罰學生留下來的床上我們連目睹兒床上都還在所以這裡面有非常多的教育的改革是進步的"},{"start":13601.704,"end":13623.42,"text":"可是現在大家爭執的這一點就是人人就廣設高中大學是不是目前的病源然後大家在執著說是不是要李遠哲負責我是不知道我沒有研究過這題誰該負責可是我覺得有一個歷史事實很重要因為當年的領導者是黃武雄教授"},{"start":13624.38,"end":13634.527,"text":"黃文雄是C10的精神跟理念的領導者那我找到他一篇文章想跟大家分享他在2021年在這個關鍵評論上他怎麼講他說廣設大學C10民間教改的訴求是台灣應在5到10年內讓年輕人進大學的機會提到美國的54%甚至達到加拿大60%以上"},{"start":13648.975,"end":13666.007,"text":"但我擔心當時的政府目光短淺那是1994年會便宜行事然後後面我暫時不念把高職專校升格為大學結果大幅降低大學的品質下一段1996年吳京上任教育部長提出第二國道的構想"},{"start":13666.807,"end":13695.339,"text":"果然要大量升格公私立技職專校雖然教改人士到教育部前抗議要求好好廣設公立大學並指出公私立學校的不同定位跳過一段然後我找時任教育立委王拓去吳部長陳述利害可惜吳部長堅持如故後面第二國道一旦通車這些升格的技術學校與大學變成了龐大利益集團偉大不掉"},{"start":13695.799,"end":13719.398,"text":"他們的存在阻撓了日後廣設新的有一定有水準的公立大學的任何提議這是黃武雄當時C0教育的領導者他認為是出在當時不是出在廣設高中跟大學是出在當時升格的方式那我想我不知道潘部長"},{"start":13720.239,"end":13720.519,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13734.281,"end":13754.494,"text":"到現在為止至少我們看到當年的那種便宜形式的升格方式那的確面臨到少子化的過程中我們面臨到現在退場的問題那民團人士那當然剛剛也有人講過就是未來8年他們認為至少40所大專院校會退場"},{"start":13755.794,"end":13780.621,"text":"事實是不是這樣子我不知道但是我看到我們林萬億政委他回應說私校退場問題不會再惡化然後他提出的解方是各校朝精緻化教學發展請問潘部長是不是認同說這是解方呢就是那個林萬億政委講的精緻化教學的方向不會就是可以解決"},{"start":13781.201,"end":13782.923,"text":"是,跟委員報告,確實現在生源,我們說少子化後的生源,這些都是客觀的數據以目前台灣大學的大專校院的規模,這個確實一定會出現招生各方面的限制"},{"start":13798.339,"end":13812.984,"text":"大學後續的發展其實教育部也一直都比較希望因為這個是現在可以再努力的部分那這一段為什麼我們一直說大學可以做如林萬一政委講的這是一種形態之一"},{"start":13813.904,"end":13814.805,"text":"部長,忍疫時間的緣故容許我先打斷您"},{"start":13834.801,"end":13851.436,"text":"這裡至少今天的報告我比較沒有看到精緻化教學方案那這邊我要提醒您一個精緻化教學方案就是到底如何精緻化山簡科系整合的問題因為我們現在看到了幾個例子包含輔大"},{"start":13852.857,"end":13871.975,"text":"廢掉哲學系至少正在考慮世新中文系真理台文系那這些私立大學他在這個縮編的過程中他好像優先把人文社會科學當成是犧牲品"},{"start":13873.996,"end":13892.924,"text":"這是個別的學校利益招生他的考量這個部分我先不深究我想要來講這是不是國家社會的利益各位看一下我們台灣人文社科的學生比例真的太高了嗎?我們如果跟OECD比我們台灣人文社科學生比例是22%OECD平均是29.4%"},{"start":13896.465,"end":13899.408,"text":"韓國28.6%日本32%這些國家表現不好嗎?我們如果跟美國比我們又遠遠不如美國他是37.6%所以如果從一個國家的"},{"start":13911.459,"end":13911.839,"text":"部長怎麼回應這個部分?"},{"start":13937.301,"end":13966.38,"text":"我跟委員報告確實在教育的過程本來就有個人跟整個國家社會的這樣的需求的考慮那教育本身也不是說通通把學生往哪一軌去發展所以在這樣的過程教育部為什麼也是一些委員這邊提對於某些科系我們當學校發生甚至是稀有的稀少的科系會有一些教育部的政策跟資源上的協助包含之前委員關心像性平所等等的"},{"start":13967.18,"end":13987.752,"text":"這個是國家教育部的重要政策所以在這種概念裡面我覺得這是我們在政策上的一個基礎那這個部分是不是教育部給我一個報告好嗎如何不要讓各校因為自己的財務考量刪掉他認為不會賺錢的科系符合國家的方向這部分是不是可以給我們辦公室一個書面報告好嗎"},{"start":13989.393,"end":14014.773,"text":"最後我也為剛剛有委員講過的我覺得召開高教我覺得也許不需要是全國教育但是高教一定要召開高教國是會議我去年3月質詢的時候部長說會去研議後來沒有下文部長可能就是下次再問您就是過去的成果您可不可以把這個當作交接清單交接給我們新部長的"},{"start":14015.333,"end":14015.353,"text":"謝謝兩位"},{"start":14045.356,"end":14047.68,"text":"接下來我們請張家俊委員 咨詢時間4分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":14053.342,"end":14079.271,"text":"主席我想請潘部長部長謝謝部長4月10號教改30年就是民間團體這個410的教改聯盟提出四大這個教改的訴求落實小班小校廣設高中大學推動教育現代化以及制定教育基本法等等除了說制定教育基本法這個明確的目標已經落實之外廣設"},{"start":14081.152,"end":14103.3,"text":"高中大學原本是說設置較高品質的國立院校那結果後來新設的都是私校那所有的技職院校都成為了科大我國的大專院校甚至曾經高達164所那少子化的現象我想部長也非常理解少子化的現象從2000年就已經開始有徵兆那目前呢"},{"start":14108.462,"end":14122.454,"text":"依照教育部所公布的資料注定了接下來的8年我們將會面對大規模的私校退場那社會上評估可能會有40至60校不等的私校退場不曉得部長對於這個數字的看法"},{"start":14124.838,"end":14125.779,"text":"部長有盤點過嗎?盤點過說接下來幾年我們預估會有多少私校可能要被輔導或者是退場"},{"start":14148.291,"end":14159.617,"text":"委員我應該說這些都是比較有客觀的數據去做因為學校也有開始在做相關的一些轉型跟努力 或者招收國際學生這個會不會變成 認為他們有機會改變過來但是在你的手上自己盤點你覺得大概會有幾家"},{"start":14170.151,"end":14195.679,"text":"委員我可能比較沒有辦法以這個所以你們教育部現在是完全不是委員我們現在是對每個學校去監督監督但你是希望每一個學校都留下來不希望他們退場如果學校非常用力的轉型但是假設有40家好了假設有40間在未來的幾年即將要退場因為我們現在的退場基金只有50億的規模可以應付這麼多私校退場嗎部長你務實一點回答"},{"start":14197.94,"end":14213.579,"text":"那個基金不是一個固定的限額啦那個當有需求的時候我想一定教育部一定會在這像今年113年我們有在預注的資金所以我想這部分會為未來的需求因為那個對解決學生教職員工是很有幫助的"},{"start":14214.039,"end":14235.948,"text":"是 這個私校退場之後延伸了三個問題一 學生的受教權二 教職人員的工作保障三 校地的活化其中學生問題就是要協助轉校嘛那教職人員的問題可能是資金或者是退休慰問金等等那最後剩下這些校產主要就是校地的問題你可以看看這個"},{"start":14237.429,"end":14242.211,"text":"很多都變成廢墟那目前退場的私校可以發現就是校地的問題常常是無法得到妥善的解決很多退場的私校土地荒廢用途不明你看看這些校園都被當成是生存遊戲的遊樂場所探險的鬼屋被遊民佔用成為治安的死角甚至是社會問題的溫床"},{"start":14261.397,"end":14261.497,"text":"請問一下部長"},{"start":14288.899,"end":14289.019,"text":"有沒有具體規劃"},{"start":14309.972,"end":14331.786,"text":"本席在這裡建議因為這個各單位有時候各自主張各說各話結果最後都是無法得到一個解決形同這個校地問題就形同一個三不管地帶所以很多單位主張有新建長照機構有新建社會住宅有作為產業園區發展改辦其他公益文教機構"},{"start":14333.047,"end":14351.681,"text":"都是很好的方法但是其實是很難做出結論的而且這個都是曠日廢時大家一直討論的過程當中他們就變成一個社會問題的溫床所以這一點希望部長應該想辦法在您交接之前能夠有一個更具體的辦法來提出"},{"start":14352.622,"end":14352.642,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":14382.335,"end":14382.635,"text":"羅志強委員請部長"},{"start":14393.781,"end":14413.071,"text":"雖然潘部長即將卸任那你投身教育30多年然後擔任部長期間也非常的長你覺得我們教改30年那外面看到的廣設大學文憑貶值甚至導致技職教育受到非常大的影響衝擊你怎麼去評價這個30年的教改成績"},{"start":14417.965,"end":14421.148,"text":"我想部長應該知道外界對這30年教改普遍的社會觀感是覺得相當的不滿意有很多不滿意的聲音"},{"start":14446.647,"end":14467.312,"text":"甚至當初推教改本身的李遠哲他都說這個朔博是滿街跑不是李遠哲的錯廣設大學跟我們無關然後但是我們的李登輝前總統又說是李遠哲引薦的美國式教育漏洞百出認為李遠哲該為教改負全責我覺得我看到李遠哲跟我們李登輝前總統"},{"start":14474.244,"end":14483.955,"text":"把這個教改當時的沸沸揚揚的教改看成燙手山芋欸我不知道那今天看起來部長你對我們的教改30年很滿意嗎"},{"start":14485.03,"end":14491.692,"text":"委員我說他是多面向有一些真的是讓臺灣教育有向前進步當時也碰到了現在的挑戰我要這樣講就是說你看現在開始30年來後遺症就越來越多了這裡您也看到了對不對"},{"start":14504.716,"end":14528.472,"text":"第一件事情啊你看到就是我們大專院校從58所變成148所成長成長3倍每年的學士生成長3倍碩士生成長5倍那接下來就開始出現我們剛剛前面講的所謂的那個文憑貶值啊那也衝擊到所謂的技職的教育那直接面對到就是今年7月將有15所的大專要關門走入歷史"},{"start":14532.159,"end":14551.411,"text":"我第一個面對就是請問那7000多名的離退或失業的教師怎麼辦呢我說到時候預估啦退場的學校會增加到40所啦幾千位的教師就會離退或失業啊不是嗎"},{"start":14554.423,"end":14569.242,"text":"這個數據說真話應該是民間他們有一些的高教工會指出啦是是但委員我跟委員報告以目前大學校院過往有幾所列為專輔現在已經就退場了目前從教育部本身的東西目前還沒有專輔的學校啦"},{"start":14571.064,"end":14598.542,"text":"高教工會指出施校退場後找到全職教師比例極低少於5%所以你認為高教工會說的是說的嗎這是事實因為我們在幫助大學校對嘛所以問題就出現那另外你也看到教育部去年3月說要立法院報告說要委託經濟部成立大專校院高等教育能力躍升培訓及媒合平台請問這個平台成立6年媒合多少人啊"},{"start":14600.465,"end":14622.093,"text":"應該是一百多位一千位大專教師求職每合69人進到產業界所以我要特別講一件事就是說今天你可以看到高教工會你也承認這個找到全職教師比例少於5%其他95%怎麼辦所以我跟部長講我沒有怪你你知道嗎"},{"start":14629.332,"end":14629.472,"text":"徐新穎委員"},{"start":14663.517,"end":14666.559,"text":"謝謝主席本席請潘部長部長您知道本席是哪一個縣市的委員嗎哪一個區域選出來的為什麼要特別問這個問題呢因為我看到"},{"start":14684.807,"end":14701.557,"text":"我們這個教育委員會常常在談因為少子化少子化的問題各種因應的措施但本席要特別的來跟部長還有我們教育部的同仁來說明我們新竹縣是有別於台灣的其他縣市"},{"start":14702.618,"end":14719.754,"text":"我了解對 我們都不斷的新生兒不斷不斷的這個出生我們雖然六都的人口都比我們多但是我們的出生率出出生率是全國前三名一直都是如此而且這個已經是十幾年了"},{"start":14721.556,"end":14748.838,"text":"除了這個以外我們的人口增加率也是全國前三名更重要的您猜看看新竹縣的平均年齡是幾歲我們新竹縣有很多農業的鄉鎮其實照理應該人口老化但是我們新竹縣的人口平均年齡幾歲您猜看看那您居住在哪個縣市我在新北新北市平均年齡多少"},{"start":14751.29,"end":14764.342,"text":"我們新竹縣是39歲很年輕但為什麼人口不多而且很多農業鄉鎮那我們的這個平均年齡還這麼低就是因為我們"},{"start":14765.603,"end":14791.938,"text":"這個一兩歲的人非常多年輕人非常多嬰幼兒非常多青少年非常多那本席講這麼多就是要讓部長瞭解所以我們教育的資源你看少子化那我們這邊為國家爭產報國生了那麼多人那他們的教育的品質教育的資源我們教育部應該要特別專案給多一點"},{"start":14792.498,"end":14798.563,"text":"副委員報告新竹縣幫忙楊縣長這個之前因為我們就看到這個趨勢特別所以也有一個專案就是針對人口逆勢成長的區域有一個叫做新興區域的所以對於國中國小的部分委員知道這個教育部是專案那邊就是我從政20年就在那繼續就是最高中的部分因為這個一定要幫助地方政府從國小國中到高中我們都缺學校缺資源缺量體"},{"start":14820.581,"end":14832.351,"text":"教育部真的在這上面因為少子化大家覺得說怎麼還有這種專案他就是因為人口成長啊對所以我們就用專案去幫助新竹縣喔沒錯所以新竹縣的教育經費投入從107年的101.66億到今年已經到153.76億整個的成長"},{"start":14841.198,"end":14842.539,"text":"除了國中小以外接下來就是接續要進入高中了"},{"start":14865.575,"end":14868.456,"text":"所以教育部也為這個專案提了一個貢獻計畫因為會配合竹竹苗的大細股計畫請部長是不是可以承諾能夠給予我們這些所需的經費"},{"start":14884.123,"end":14890.147,"text":"委員這個部分我們要跟新竹縣一起討論這個就是縣政府希望我來講因為高中不像國中小是那麼明確的學區制他設應該是要有一個比較像大範圍的規劃那您可以承諾會"},{"start":14903.374,"end":14907.116,"text":"主席再給我一點點時間我第二題就是我們現在國中教育會考全國有15個學區對不對15個學區那你看採三級積分制的目前只剩下7個學區"},{"start":14928.388,"end":14950.974,"text":"有這個其他學區都有不同的積分制那本席很快的講新竹縣採三級積分制那你如果是考生EA4B的考生呢他會優先於5B10加的考生那以分數來看就變成58分的考生優先於79分的入學這個公平嗎"},{"start":14951.934,"end":14962.52,"text":"部長請你回答這個問題因為各級制的積分是在各就學區是由他們來決定事實也這樣你不能說我要下因為學期之間他們有差異剛剛那個不公平部長也覺得不公平我可能要檢核一下才知道我那數字沒有騙你就是58分比79分先入學"},{"start":14976.508,"end":14995.248,"text":"所以我們希望教育部你這個這樣不公平那你給各區都有他的這個權責可是我們新竹縣一直覺得這個三級積分制要改掉那改不掉怎麼辦你教育部可能因為我們是竹竹苗一個學區嘛教育部是不是可以來協助"},{"start":14996.67,"end":15018.796,"text":"委員因為我說就學區因為跨了好幾個單位幾個區域就三個我們就逐逐秒你如果說連這個區域內都不能形成一個那你們出來協調嘛就像三個小孩有意見的時候父母下來協調一下看是不是可以協助我們來從旁把這個訊息跟他們"},{"start":15019.036,"end":15019.296,"text":"主席"},{"start":15042.122,"end":15050.727,"text":"好 謝謝許委員接下來鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 牛雪婷委員謝謝主席 潘部長有請好 請部長"},{"start":15064.079,"end":15091.015,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了 午安今天討論一下學校退場條例跟即時教育的一些問題現在私校退場基本上就是針對營運不善的學校因為它有幾個指標為了避免它影響教育品質所以說由政府介入的角度來要求它來做退場但這本席有接到一些陳情當然就在這個地方來跟部長做個討論就是說現在私校解散清篡之後的財產歸屬好像只能捐贈所謂的退場基金"},{"start":15093.897,"end":15121.096,"text":"要不然就是捐給中央機關或公立學校等於就是充公的一個概念那有一種說法是這樣就是說其實當初大家都是為了興學那私人興學其實他們有他們的理想性那有些學校營運不善當然應該退場這本席完全同意但是有些私立學校也許營運得不錯然後他會希望說我透過整併或擴大的方式來處理所以說有沒有可能就是說在這個財產歸屬的部分也開放所謂的私立學校的學校法人變成一個捐贈的一個對象"},{"start":15122.44,"end":15124.713,"text":"要這樣的一個說法我想先聽一聽教育部的意見"},{"start":15125.658,"end":15153.135,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這個當時退場條例在我們上一屆大院這邊委員會是大家充分的討論為了這個就歸屬的問題當時最後決議了就是還是以歸功還是以歸功為主那目前這是在法規所設的因為當時這些如委員剛才所提的也有很多不同的學校也有提出各種不同的想法但是條例定下來是歸功"},{"start":15154.076,"end":15180.075,"text":"我同意你們現在依法行政這沒有問題但我要問政策方向因為現在按照你的報告來講真的走到這個所謂的退場條例然後把走完的學校其實很少對不對而且蠻多其實在中間就卡在那個地方那其實對於教育品質的影響是很大的所以說這一部分看教育部是不是會後來因為他你前面有一個討論的我先講如果不是進到退場啦也就是說因為退場後一億就多了對退場後的正義多嘛"},{"start":15182.436,"end":15207.381,"text":"其實現在很多私校彼此之間去做那個本身依法是可行的所以你會希望就是不要走到退場的階段再來做這件事情所以他應該提前去思考這個問題我希望教育部用一個開放的心態思考然後就是說主要以加快退場的速度因為我們現在就很擔心就是說有些學校一直卡在退場這個階段然後他就沒有辦法前進那個學生也好教師作為受僱者其實勞工權也受到影響這都不是件好事"},{"start":15208.402,"end":15225.744,"text":"所以如果你有一個輔導的機制可以讓他預警或怎麼樣讓他早一點處理完這個事可以處理一下這事情當然很好但如果不行的話是不是可以再做一些思考跟討論這是第一個問題第二個問題是很多私校走的是技職體系那北京一般關心技職體系的一個發展特別是有關於產學合作的這一個部分"},{"start":15226.906,"end":15241.362,"text":"現行這個技術及職業教育法9條2項只有規定就是說讓職涯的認識跟探索列入這個國小跟國中的課綱就是知道有這條路存在那高中只是說安排最多到安排企業參訪跟這個產業參訪要求宣導說明活動"},{"start":15245.447,"end":15258.422,"text":"但我們有發現那到了你如果真的走了技職這一條路的話根據專科以上學校產學合作事實辦法就可以辦理產學合作或者是校外實習那當然就要簽所謂的契約原則上要符合勞基法的規定嘛對不對這是產學合作的一個遊戲規則啦"},{"start":15260.444,"end":15276.026,"text":"但本期有點擔心啦希望教育部先做一個資料的一個收集就是說在現行的規定下保障學生權益的規範可能是不太足夠的比如說這個專科以上學校產學合作實施辦法六條一項六條之一一項六款有講"},{"start":15277.568,"end":15290.257,"text":"實習起碼你有一個解除的條件跟程序去處理這種事情可是針對產學合作萬一中間出了一些狀況出現一些爭端的時候它其實在後端是沒有這樣子的一個解除的一個程序的所以我要求針對這個東西針對產學合作的部分"},{"start":15292.759,"end":15293.62,"text":"我跟委員一個請求若委員"},{"start":15316.542,"end":15316.862,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們潘部長"},{"start":15346.235,"end":15374.839,"text":"是部長謝謝委員午安部長午安這個部長我想如果你作為執政者我想要請教一下你覺得政策的擬定有一些有三大的考量要素的話你會認為是哪三個部分我想目標是要很重要就是為了要做什麼還是要解決什麼問題第二個是政策的可行性當然再來一個就是必要的資源跟配套他才可能到位"},{"start":15375.404,"end":15391.641,"text":"好那我這邊我想要反映的是我這邊想的是民意專業跟價值嘛對不對所以我想在座各位都是教育界的前輩但是我們今天身為民意代表我們也想要反映一些在教育現場上的意見彙整喔我想請教一下部長在關於108課綱上路至今喔我們可以看到"},{"start":15394.904,"end":15420.993,"text":"其實有很多家長學生老師對於這個學習歷程紀錄都很有意見我想要請問這幾年以來這個學習歷程紀錄上任了好幾年以來不曉得部長有沒有做過校方教師方或學生方這幾個方面的滿意度調查的或是檢討報告應該不是用滿意度調查但是有做資料的信息的收集就是說他們反映其實學習歷程檔案也有過幾波的檢討修正"},{"start":15422.203,"end":15441.091,"text":"對,所以我上次問其實是沒有針對這個所謂的滿意度做一個調查所以為此我有特別幫這個教育部做了一份算是非正式的問卷但是是針對我們基層的意見去問他們的想法那所有的樣本都是高中生所以在反應的部分我們問他們說你認為完成學期歷程的困難普通還是簡單有16%認為是普通可是84%認為很困難沒有任何人覺得簡單那再來"},{"start":15452.285,"end":15465.847,"text":"對於學習歷程對他的幫助程度如果用0到5分的話平均他們只給了1.2分那4成的同學給出1分或0分那再來學習歷程對你的痛苦程度"},{"start":15467.368,"end":15475.832,"text":"卻高達了4.45分有7乘5的同學給出4分或者是5分那我想這是非常現實的一個反應的狀況另外還有78.3%的學生是支持廢除這個學習歷程記錄"},{"start":15482.635,"end":15504.587,"text":"所以我想這個是我想要帶給部長的當然你在教育上面可能有所謂的專業可是我們在民意上面也要充分的反映給你喔所以有接下來有不少的學生也反映說準備時間不夠然後總是因為學習歷程檔案壓力很大身心俱疲喔那還有這個準備時間不夠平常就要應付各種考試"},{"start":15505.968,"end":15527.648,"text":"另外有80%的學生認為學習歷程的檔案沒有成為他們錄取理想科系的最大助力所以也不曉得說大學端想要看什麼那有60%的認為志向未定難以規劃檔案上傳期限短內容充滿難產校方和個人資源不足也擔心讓內容遜色"},{"start":15530.987,"end":15549.715,"text":"那部長這裡面還有一個我就不問了我本來是想問你你知道有幾%的學生一天睡不到8小時嗎?經過調查有93%那甚至也有這個兒萌的調查就是兒萌發展組織的調查說學生首要的壓力來源是什麼?結果有76.1%認為是學習歷程記錄"},{"start":15553.838,"end":15563.63,"text":"所以到了2022年的時候更有92.3%的高中實施檔案歷程遭遇到困難那144所的高中反映學生壓力過大"},{"start":15565.182,"end":15588.734,"text":"那我想這個當然政府的利益良善是希望我們的學生探索自己的興趣但是在現在的狀況看起來就是學習歷程檔案變成一個升學的工具之外造成了補習班也用這個來當賣點那老師幫忙做科展或甚至怕教出來的學生的歷程記錄不好看被笑那高中生一直有的學期有無數份的期中期末報告"},{"start":15589.674,"end":15618.371,"text":"這些都是在新聞有報導的甚至有統計指出有54.7%的教授最看重的是在校成績跟基礎學科能力足足是高中學習歷程的反思的兩倍那甚至Google一查就發現有人在幫忙代寫我想這些部長知不知道專門在幫忙代寫的這些狀況都有那我當然知道你也有呼籲過說抓到就取消資格但是看起來他還是盛行的產業所以代表是沒有解決"},{"start":15619.485,"end":15644.208,"text":"沒有解決這個痛苦的問題那甚至網路上有什麼10萬到20萬的這個代寫的費用所以其實我想這已經造成了這個學生很大量的痛苦而且也沒有達到真正的意義所以我想要請部長這個部分是不是可以去好好的做出一個檢討因為基本上看起來學習歷程紀錄從我們這個調查來看它就是一個甚至搞到天怒人怨大家也都壓力很大的部分"},{"start":15644.989,"end":15662.191,"text":"所以想要請問部長可不可以回去研議．廢除學習歷程記錄．或者是研擬替代方案．或是怎麼樣修正的方法．我跟你們報告因為學習歷程檔案其實我更早前面．現在學生只要參加推爭．還是有一個叫做備審的資料"},{"start":15664.134,"end":15668.497,"text":"委員提到這個過程我們也不斷在做簡化也學生有很多參考那委員提到的是不是在做一個嚴厲檢討能夠達到他更好讓學生在學習真正扣合他的學習我們再來做努力好不好"},{"start":15684.031,"end":15700.319,"text":"對部長所以你剛剛提到就是這個備審你等於是加倍的壓力啊你覺得多了管道可是事實上你多了一個壓力的管道來源這個部分真的是已經是太多人的反應所以我知道時間也到了但是這個部分真的要請部長好好回去思考研議謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝廖外祥委員也謝謝部長楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員"},{"start":15709.537,"end":15712.339,"text":"何欣淳委員鄭天才委員鄭振前委員莊瑞雄委員邱志偉委員"},{"start":15728.189,"end":15731.374,"text":"王宏威委員．陳冠廷委員．蔡易宇委員．游皓委員．"},{"start":15745.473,"end":15764.296,"text":"好那今天登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢另外有莊瑞雄、劉建國、牛許廷、王洪威跟陳冠廷委員提出書面的質詢那我們關於今天的會議我們做以下的一個決定那我們這個答案完畢"},{"start":15764.997,"end":15782.227,"text":"委員所提的書面質詢或是相關的資料我們都列入記錄並且刊登公報對於委員質詢時所要求提供相關的資料或是未及答覆的部分我們也請相關的機關能夠儘速弄書面來做一個答覆報告委員會我們今天議程處理完不我們現在休息謝謝各位"},{"start":15801.818,"end":15802.418,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":15825.598,"end":15825.818,"text":"這裏我們來收"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}