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那是不是請理事長非常感謝廖委員對於我們這個問題的一個垂詢我跟委員報告我們這個部分除了我們現職的員工同仁之外其實也有已經已離職的員工"},{"start":126.639,"end":134.245,"text":"大概是幾個?有找到幾個移職員工?具體的案例,我是不是有請人事處長來跟您做一個說明?謝謝。跟委員報告,我們這邊不方便去透露離職員工幾個個案,因為這個很容易被識別化。但是當初第一波網路問卷的時候,離職員工如果"},{"start":155.342,"end":160.288,"text":"網路問卷依照每個人他服務的單位不同只要他是現任跟前任的我就問說大概你們發出了幾份回收幾份"},{"start":172.691,"end":198.796,"text":"我們大概總總統因為有8個案子不太近相同回收率是25%所以你8案只訪談了大概96位那平均一案大概是12位那劉祖密叫下屬去自殺那剛剛我們陳昭之委員已經說也有即興員工已經自殺然後你們不認為這是霸凌那我覺得這個報告"},{"start":200.456,"end":216.565,"text":"是不是對往生者不禁又覺得在家屬的傷口上傻眼?你們真的覺得這是用心高規格嗎?你們真的有查清楚嗎?報告委員我們對於調查要務重但是也要務往那第一點第二點我們這個就是說那位同仁他的整個他的那個舊衣102年"},{"start":219.966,"end":221.026,"text":"我問一下,那我另外進一步問另外叫人家深蹲"},{"start":235.302,"end":250.457,"text":"做福利挺身甚至這次根本就已經上升到體罰的層次那怎麼可能不是霸凌呢?如果不是旁邊有人把它錄下來不然你被強迫深蹲跟福利挺身的時候你有辦法錄影自保、蒐證自保嗎?這個報告是不是要重啓重寫?"},{"start":251.678,"end":279.647,"text":"報告委員我做兩點說明第一個就是有關於福利及衛生我之前已經說是在2022年12月那剛好有一位新進同仁進來然後他做就是他跟大家自我介紹的時候說他會健身然後呢師長他說那你的福利及衛生很強喔那另外還有一位替代役他也說他們平常在做所以你一直說他說他很強他就叫他來做福利及衛生給大家看那這樣算不算"},{"start":281.107,"end":286.491,"text":"這樣不算霸凌嗎?他如果說我有一個員工說深蹲很強,那我問你啊,我助理剛剛也跟我說他蠻會深蹲的,他說我現在叫他深蹲放PowerPoint,你覺得這樣算不算霸凌?是不是也是利益良善?"},{"start":297.398,"end":315.234,"text":"按照我們過去的一個整個這個法院的一個對於這一個部分的那個判決其實對於所謂霸凌他就是要構成敵意環境而且是持續性的那我必須要說這個住信司長他這個行為他這個管理行為我認為我也覺得這個實在是很不當啦"},{"start":316.054,"end":323.758,"text":"對,你都已經覺得不當了,那這怎麼可能不是霸凌?但是並沒有構成,我們必須要尊重學者專家他們的整個組織調查。今天我請我的助理說,我覺得你邊深蹲邊放簡報你會瘦,他就也不好意思拒絕我,然後他就開始深蹲放簡報,我這樣會不會算霸凌?"},{"start":339.582,"end":342.905,"text":"市長你剛剛都已經說你也覺得不太妥了啊我是說就整個管理行為上面來說這一個我是覺得應該要所以我們也因為這樣市長我跟你說你也知道上次這個何佩珊部長在這裡他一樣的調查報告弄出來之後你覺得大家會不會覺得很荒謬就是說深蹲、伏地挺身都不算是霸凌"},{"start":365.006,"end":380.12,"text":"那我覺得我說真的啊聽到你們這樣的報告我想很多公務人員都會很緊張吧甚至我們的助理也很緊張吧如果今天一時興起他有一天說他剛去健身回來非常的非常的壯我就說那你做福利起身給大家看那大家會不會覺得很荒謬"},{"start":382.315,"end":383.495,"text":"市長因為我想這個很多人在檢舉我想就是"},{"start":412.006,"end":426.416,"text":"你們在報告之外真的沒有辦法讓大家很幸福你們是不是應該要再回去再去深究一下到底是不是有問題啊這看起來是很荒謬很離譜的事情喔那另外現在不只是這個霸凌案啊"},{"start":427.796,"end":439.062,"text":"連臺大醫院也傳出臺大知名不孕症權威我們就這裡叫代號C教授好了被6名住院醫生研究醫生申訴性騷擾性騷擾案經過性評調查後確認有性騷擾的事實請問部長這個事情你有瞭解嗎?我有媒體來報導來瞭解部長你認識這個C教授嗎?"},{"start":455.064,"end":456.005,"text":"你知道這個人嗎?你認不認識這個人?"},{"start":475.785,"end":494.49,"text":"因為在不...因為不同的科而且距離算是...所以你認識嗎?你知道嗎?全部台大的人我大概都認識啊。哦所以你就認識嘛對不對?你就認識這位C教授嘛對不對?你認識這位C教授那你原本有掌握到這件事嗎?我不知道。你完全不知道?"},{"start":495.56,"end":521.009,"text":"那你在這件事裡面可以有什麼角色?我們按規定按依法辦理啊依法辦理怎麼辦理?我問你C教授他搶先申請退休打算保住退休金自請離職喔然後讓我想到這其實就跟我們當初勞動部霸凌情深案件謝宜榮前分署長一樣他想要在召開考機會之前自行請辭以免被免職或撤職"},{"start":522.273,"end":548.128,"text":"然後當時這個部長也是站在何沛山部長也是站在質詢台上說毫不知情喔那我想要請問一下這個C教授也同樣想要搶先申請退休的狀況您剛剛說依法辦理那依照你們的法這個這個規章要怎麼處理才能夠避免這個首先就是由僱主用僱主他可以依照他的行為去用針對聖平三法的規定去處理"},{"start":549.088,"end":555.893,"text":"部長,你不覺得這事情其實很誇張嗎?一個婦產科的權威性騷他的女醫生,那他過去看過這麼多的女病患,發生這個事情,然後你認識這個人,你覺得可以怎麼處理更好?"},{"start":571.073,"end":594.778,"text":"我覺得依法辦理就最好。我們的性平三法過去在立法院也在上一屆很努力的工作。好部長我跟你說其實這件事情還有最後後面還有一個很嚴重的部分是也根據媒體報導這個C教授竟然敢找總統府的資政求救並試圖施壓台大那不只拒絕悔過還找高層人士來幫腔來押案來吃案"},{"start":595.711,"end":606.436,"text":"那這也不是空穴來風喔這個我想就在C教授9月自請離職後他竟然轉往另外一個由總統府執政開設的醫院任職喔"},{"start":608.311,"end":623.892,"text":"你知道這個事嗎?部長?從媒體上面有看到你從媒體上面知道那這個事情走漏風聲之後呢這個該醫院也偷偷的將這個C教授的照片和資料徹下看起來就是心虛或是確有歧視欲蓋彌彰的行為"},{"start":625.894,"end":653.003,"text":"那這次事件如果不是有什麼政壇大佬的媳婦啊或是臺大另外的婦產科的權威的媳婦啊企業家二代或是一些相對有一定政經地位的人都成為受害者喔加上臺大的這個校長陳文章能夠秉持他的專業良心拒絕關說我想這事也不了了之啊部長我覺得我們不應該每次都依賴這個運氣吧那我也想請問你知不知道這位總統府執政是誰"},{"start":654.486,"end":678.494,"text":"這位要幫他關說總統府執政是誰因為媒體沒有寫名字所以我不去猜測你不去猜測那你知不知道是誰媒體寫的是誰媒體寫的我我就說我不用不去猜測我是看他的行為對不對這樣子那我們想要知道這個總統府執政的話到底有沒有關說施壓這個調查我們應該怎麼做"},{"start":682.828,"end":685.57,"text":"這要由總統府來調查嗎?還是你們可以啟動調查?這個可能要從台灣大學那邊去了解他整個調查的過程當中所以會變成是教育部的責任嗎?會變成是教育部要叫台大去把它調查清楚嗎?還是衛福部可以有角色?"},{"start":707.298,"end":723.299,"text":"我們當然非常關心只要所有的工作醫療界的醫師醫藉福利界所有的工作同仁的尊嚴安全都跟我們當然都是我們關心的部長我想另外就進一步追問一下有一定的規範嘛"},{"start":724.36,"end":745.25,"text":"你知道他轉到另外一個婦產科的時候那個婦產科後來可能發現這個問題他就說他已經不讓這個醫師做內診了啦已經不讓這個醫師做內診那我想就是您是醫界的大佬也非常有經驗我想請問一下婦產科醫師不接觸內診的比例或是他不碰內診的比例可以有多高他比較屬這個專家在下面吧那我再問你對專家在下面那我再問你"},{"start":758.431,"end":764.314,"text":"對,國監署長,那你可以回答一下嗎?一個婦產科醫師...那我在進一步追問你今天他婦產科醫師有人來可能看到這個人的名字來看醫生那他不做內診換另外一個醫生幫他做內診出了醫療行為出了問題那誰要負責?"},{"start":784.562,"end":808.737,"text":"這個做檢查的就會檢查的一個報告嘛比如說我們做超音波檢查就超音波檢查的人報告以及他部長反正整件事情就是很荒謬啊我想要問你的事情是這件事情如果不是就這樣不了了之喔我想未來大家可能都要碰運氣喔看誰可以把這件事情爆出來所以我想要問你這個要怎麼樣在制度上做改善和預防"},{"start":810.563,"end":810.663,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":831.755,"end":860.183,"text":"如果台大醫院這個案例很簡單按照那個大院剛通過的性騷三法如果說是那個在台大醫院那邊如果說有任何一方是學生的話那就教育部那如果說其他的話那就性工法性工法那就勞動部啊所以衛福部都不管你們的事報告委那衛福部這邊我們現在目前就是有關於性騷三法三法裡面來如果不屬於性平不屬於校園不屬於職場就是我們主管的性騷防止法"},{"start":861.171,"end":889.552,"text":"所以他現在的狀況會是你們主管的嗎目前看起來如果說他對象是一般的病患有可能就是嘛對不對那你們現在可以做什麼他就進到申訴申訴調查署之後就會到縣市應該是臺北市政府的社會局他會做審議審議確定之後他就會做行政處罰那另外他的行為如果構成性騷25條就會進到司法調查我希望你們深入調查喔"},{"start":890.633,"end":918.915,"text":"這中間可能不只這六位是受害者這六位受害者他報出來只是真的是比較有辦法影響到大家關注度的我希望你們針對這個醫師好好的調查而且如果你說這個受害者這過程有碰到一般的病患但是又碰到有人施壓我也希望你們在施壓的那個人好好的調查有沒有這個狀況總統府執政到底是誰請你們給社會一個交代誰哪一個總統府執政這麼囂張"},{"start":920.799,"end":926.843,"text":"自己的人跑去這個性騷擾他還可以打電話想要押案、吃案太扯了吧然後聘用一個性騷擾的這個婦產科醫師然後跟他說我不讓他看內診很荒謬我們一定依法辦理好另外部長目前"},{"start":943.417,"end":959.532,"text":"醫美合法的管道有麻醉氾濫跟管制的問題非法的地下醫美問題也是很嚴重橋頭地檢署10月偵辦出高雄商辦內隱藏流動的地下醫美很多的藥品跟醫材都是大陸輸入的仿冒品"},{"start":960.713,"end":982.765,"text":"其實也顯示這一段時間地下醫美在臺灣也逐步形成了產業鏈其實根據從醫界的側面瞭解地下醫美市場可能佔整個醫美市場近61%數字讓人震驚那也就是說這些無照服務等等的問題那簡單來講就是部長這個部分要怎麼加強管制避免很多的病患可能"},{"start":984.042,"end":1009.002,"text":"跑去這些地方用到這些不合法的東西導致他們的權益受損。好,謝謝委員的擔心。如果以這樣的報導我們是不是令人憂心?那這也是有虧了我們十幾年來從我們蘇昭偉、我擔任醫師公會領導者的時候跟醫術師一直在對醫美方面做管理。"},{"start":1009.802,"end":1021.452,"text":"不管是,讓他們有一個規則,不然他們也是做到很沒尊嚴的,我們老實說啦。做到我怎麼很可憐,因為他們都醫師有時候...所以沒有,部長,因為時間有限,我還有很重要的要問你,所以你要怎麼做?"},{"start":1022.27,"end":1049.821,"text":"我們就...好,如果有違法的當然就要去查緝啊可是看起來你們執行很差欸我在下面再舉一個例子喔部長電子煙氾濫我們在過去很常常就是在質詢這件事情看起來衛福部沒有什麼管制的能力欸網路上隨便一搜就很多網站在那邊販售電子煙然後有六行民眾收集了300個違法的販售網站的名單希望你們去封禁"},{"start":1050.781,"end":1076.082,"text":"這個部分部長知道嗎?部長就是沒有啊你可能不了解處理狀況喔確實有民眾向Google檢舉但最終的結果就是你只要在Google台灣分站的搜尋上面搜尋電子煙下方會有警語喔但它警語完之後它連接到這300家的名單網頁而且這些網站目前都還沒有被停止解析所以都連得上"},{"start":1076.883,"end":1081.026,"text":"那你知道這就是因為你們不積極處理本來是禁止名單現在變成購買推薦清單欸"},{"start":1085.352,"end":1109.614,"text":"非常謝謝委員的關心那為這個我們現在有跨部位的平台那其實我們也非常謝謝這個網路平台那我們有親國溝通所以做一層二層三層的一個屏蔽跟移除但看起來現在就是沒有啊而且他們還發展成LINE客服很多都是重複的ID喔不同的網站同一個LINE客服喔代表它已經是集團化的經營那你們要怎麼做啊"},{"start":1110.543,"end":1110.663,"text":"我們建議來處理,嘿。"},{"start":1133.784,"end":1140.552,"text":"請你們不要再這麼鬆散了 這個問題很嚴重好 謝謝主席我們一定會努力 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T11:58:54.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T11:58:54.870000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T11:58:55.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T11:58:55.730000+08:00","text":"有請邱部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T11:58:55.730000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T11:59:18.265000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T11:59:18.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T11:59:18.645000+08:00","text":"部長你好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T11:59:19.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T11:59:38.563000+08:00","text":"今天準備的題目比較多，我想先問一下，再生醫療雙法在上個會期的6月19號公布通過，條文的最後有說相關的施行細則跟施行日期由衛福部與行政院定之，現在還差幾天就滿半年了，為何迄今還不公布細則跟日期？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T11:59:39.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:01.218000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這分兩個，一個是再生醫療法，一個是再生醫療製劑條例，再生醫療法由醫事司在處理，因為牽涉到滿多的內容，9個子辦法現在已經陸續完成草案，預計在114年第一季進行法規預告作業。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:01.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:03.259000+08:00","text":"114年第一季可以是不是？可以。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:04.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:10.542000+08:00","text":"因為之前我看到有媒體報導你的態度好像沒有太支持，希望不要因為這樣子拖延到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:11.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:16.646000+08:00","text":"我非常支持，但是我必須要支持一個福國利民的再生醫療法。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:16.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:21.629000+08:00","text":"所以你們就是明年的第一季會出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:21.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:22.169000+08:00","text":"第一季會預告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:23.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:25.031000+08:00","text":"好，到時候請不要拖延到，好不好？","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:26.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:26.892000+08:00","text":"好，再跟委員報告。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:27.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:40.009000+08:00","text":"再來是有關霸凌案最新的調查報告，今天的專案報告內容中說霸凌案訪談了96名員工，請問都是訪問在職的嗎？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:40.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:45.453000+08:00","text":"如果有訪問已經離職或者是已經請調外單位的員工，應該不會只有96位吧！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:47.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:49.316000+08:00","text":"是不是請呂次長說明？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:00:49.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:00:59.023000+08:00","text":"非常感謝廖委員對於這個問題的垂詢，我跟委員報告，我們對這個部分除了現職員工同仁之外，其實也有已經離職的員工。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:01:00.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:01:02.521000+08:00","text":"大概有找到幾個已離職的員工？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:01:02.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:01:05.663000+08:00","text":"具體的案例，我是不是請人事處長來跟您做說明？謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:01:05.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:01:08.225000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們這邊不方便透露離職員工幾個個案，因為這個很容易被識別化，但是當初第一波網路問卷的時候，離職員工他如果因為……","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:01:08.225000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:01:19.204000+08:00","text":"你說有網路問卷，那你們發出幾份？","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:01:19.204000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:01:30.183000+08:00","text":"回收幾份？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:01:30.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:01:32.506000+08:00","text":"網路問卷因為每個人服務的單位不同，只要他是現任跟前任的……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:01:32.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:01:34.268000+08:00","text":"我就問你們大概發出了幾份、回收幾份？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:01:51.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:01:56.493000+08:00","text":"因為有8個案子不盡相同，所以回收率是25%。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:01:56.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:02:17.718000+08:00","text":"所以你8案只訪談了大概96位，平均1案大概是12位，劉主秘叫下屬去自殺，剛剛我們陳昭姿委員說紀姓員工已經自殺，然後你們不認為這是霸凌，我覺得這個報告是不是對往生者不敬又在家屬的傷口上撒鹽？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:02:18.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:02:20.419000+08:00","text":"你們真的覺得這是用心高規格嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:02:20.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:02:21.820000+08:00","text":"你們真的有查清楚嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:02:21.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:02:26.183000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們對於調查要毋縱但是也要毋枉，這是第一點。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:02:26.183000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:02:34.166000+08:00","text":"第二點是我們那位同仁他的就醫是從102年開始，可是劉姓這一位當時任組長是109年，所以整個時序上來說，實際上他並沒有完全的overlap。","quality":0.254},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:02:34.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:02:55.448000+08:00","text":"那我進一步問，叫人家深蹲做伏地挺身，這根本就已經上升到體罰的層次，怎麼可能不是霸凌呢？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:02:56.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:03.837000+08:00","text":"如果不是旁邊有人把他錄下來，不然你被強迫深蹲跟伏地挺身的時候有辦法錄影蒐證自保嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:03.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:04.457000+08:00","text":"這個報告是不是要重啟重寫？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:05.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:07.439000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我做兩點說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:07.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:29.085000+08:00","text":"第一個就是有關於伏地挺身，我之前已經說過那是在2022年12月，剛好有位新進同仁進來跟大家自我介紹的時候說他會健身，然後司長就說那你的伏地挺身很強囉，另外還有一位替代役人員，他也說他們平常也會做，大家起鬨……","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:30.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:32.926000+08:00","text":"你的意思是說他說他很強，他就叫他做伏地挺身給大家看？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:32.926000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:35.107000+08:00","text":"不是，就是PK一下。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:35.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:35.467000+08:00","text":"這樣不算霸凌嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:35.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:39.550000+08:00","text":"如果有一個員工說他深蹲很強，我的助理剛剛也跟我說他滿會深蹲的，如果我現在叫他一邊深蹲一邊放PowerPoint，你覺得這樣算不算霸凌？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:39.550000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:40.550000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:40.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:40.471000+08:00","text":"這是不是也是立意良善？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:40.471000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:03:51.398000+08:00","text":"因為今天我助理說他BMI比較高。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:03:51.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:09.213000+08:00","text":"按照過去法院對於這個部分的判決，其實所謂霸凌就是要構成敵意環境而且是持續性的，那我必須要說這位祝姓司長他這個管理行為我也覺得實在是很不當啦！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:10.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:11.075000+08:00","text":"對，你都已經覺得不當了，那這怎麼可能不是霸凌？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:11.075000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:12.075000+08:00","text":"這是管理行為不當，但是學者專家……","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:11.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:11.695000+08:00","text":"所以沒有構成？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:11.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:12.595000+08:00","text":"我們必須尊重學者專家他們的事實調查。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:12.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:17.738000+08:00","text":"如果我今天對我的助理說我覺得你邊深蹲邊放簡報你會瘦，他也不好意思拒絕我，然後他就開始邊深蹲邊放簡報，我這樣會不會算霸凌？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:17.738000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:33.602000+08:00","text":"不是，報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:33.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:33.922000+08:00","text":"次長你剛剛都已經說你也覺得這樣不太妥啦！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:33.922000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:34.922000+08:00","text":"說了不太妥卻又沒事。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:34.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:35.083000+08:00","text":"不是，我是說就整個管理行為上面來說，我是覺得應該要……所以也因為這樣，我們就給他記了過。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:35.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:04:36.325000+08:00","text":"次長，我跟你說，你也知道上次何佩珊部長在這裡，一樣的調查報告弄出來之後，你認為大家會不會覺得很荒謬？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:04:36.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:05:03.950000+08:00","text":"就是說深蹲、伏地挺身都不算是霸凌，那我說真的啦，聽到你們這樣的報告，我想很多公務人員都會很緊張吧！","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:05:04.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:05:05.752000+08:00","text":"甚至我們的助理也很緊張吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:05:06.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:05:14.120000+08:00","text":"如果今天一時興起，他有一天說他剛去健身回來，非常的壯，我就說那你做伏地挺身給大家看，大家會不會覺得很荒謬？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:05:14.120000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:05:17.055000+08:00","text":"報告委員，所以我說我個人也認為這個祝姓司長，我覺得他這個管理行為真的很有可議之處，但是現在法院對於相關的判決，認為所謂職場霸凌要符合三個要件：第一個就是上對下，在職場裡面發生而且透過言語、非言語；第二個要構成所謂的敵意；第三個……","quality":0.019},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:05:17.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:05:17.375000+08:00","text":"這個很多人在檢舉喔！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:05:17.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:05:54.392000+08:00","text":"我想你們這份報告出來真的沒有辦法讓大家很信服，你們是不是應該要再回去深究一下到底是不是有問題啊！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:05:54.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:05:57.073000+08:00","text":"這看起來是很荒謬、很離譜的事情喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:05:57.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:12.302000+08:00","text":"另外，現在不止是這個霸凌案，連臺大醫院也傳出臺大知名不孕症權威──我們就叫代號C教授好了──被6名住院醫生、研究醫生申訴性騷擾，性騷擾案經過性平調查後，確認有性騷擾的事實，請問部長，這個事情你有瞭解嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:12.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:12.942000+08:00","text":"我有由媒體報導來瞭解。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:12.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:13.062000+08:00","text":"部長認識這個C教授嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:13.062000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:15.348000+08:00","text":"因為科別不太一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:15.348000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:17.634000+08:00","text":"那你認不認識？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:17.634000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:19.920000+08:00","text":"我知道這個人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:19.920000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:22.206000+08:00","text":"你知道這個人，所以你認識他，知道C教授是誰。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:22.206000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:24.492000+08:00","text":"因為媒體上面也沒寫，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:24.492000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:26.778000+08:00","text":"你剛剛說你知道這個人，現在又說上面也沒寫，到底知不知道？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:26.778000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:29.064000+08:00","text":"我大概知道這樣的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:29.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:29.764000+08:00","text":"你知道這個人嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:29.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:29.985000+08:00","text":"你認不認識這個人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:49.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:54.126000+08:00","text":"因為在不同的科而且距離算是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:54.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:55.927000+08:00","text":"所以你認識嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:55.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:56.207000+08:00","text":"你知道嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:56.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:06:58.647000+08:00","text":"全部臺大的人我大概都認識。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:06:59.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:00.288000+08:00","text":"所以你就認識嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:00.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:00.628000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:00.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:01.928000+08:00","text":"你就是認識這位C教授嘛！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:02.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:03.008000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:03.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:07.049000+08:00","text":"你認識這位C教授，那你原本有掌握到這件事嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:07.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:07.370000+08:00","text":"我不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:07.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:08.470000+08:00","text":"你完全不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:09.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:11.521000+08:00","text":"那你在這件事裡面可以有什麼角色？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:12.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:15.202000+08:00","text":"我們按規定依法辦理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:16.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:17.043000+08:00","text":"依法辦理是怎麼辦理？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:17.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:07:52.982000+08:00","text":"我問你C教授他搶先申請退休，打算保住退休金，自請離職，讓我想到這其實就跟當初勞動部霸凌輕生案件主角謝宜容前分署長一樣，他想要在召開考績會之前自行請辭，以免被免職或撤職，當時何佩珊部長也是站在質詢台上說毫不知情，我想要請問一下，這個C教授也同樣有想要搶先申請退休的狀況，你剛剛說依法辦理，那依照你們的法，這個規章要怎麼處理才能夠避免？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:07:53.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:08:02.108000+08:00","text":"這個首先就是雇主可以依照他的行為針對性平三法的規定去處理，這個事情的雇主是臺大醫院，他的職位應該是屬於臺大的……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:08:03.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:08:05.150000+08:00","text":"部長，你不覺得這事情其實很誇張嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:08:05.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:08:09.873000+08:00","text":"一個婦產科的權威性騷女醫生，那他過去看過這麼多的女病患，發生這個事情，然後你認識這個人，你覺得怎麼處理更好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:08:25.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:08:30.414000+08:00","text":"我覺得依法辦理就是最好，我們的性平三法，在立法院上一屆很努力地把它通過了。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:08:30.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:03.573000+08:00","text":"部長我跟你說，其實這件事情最後面還有一個很嚴重的部分，也是根據媒體報導，這個C教授竟然敢找總統府資政求救並試圖施壓臺大，不止拒絕悔過，還找高層人士來幫腔、來壓案、來吃案，這也不是空穴來風，就在C教授9月自請離職後，他竟然轉往另外一個由總統府資政開設的醫院任職，部長知道這個事嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:04.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:05.455000+08:00","text":"由媒體上看到。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:06.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:06.617000+08:00","text":"從媒體上面知道的喔。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:07.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:17.892000+08:00","text":"這個事情走漏風聲之後，該醫院也偷偷的將C教授的照片和資料撤下，看起來就是心虛或是確有其事，也是欲蓋彌彰的行為。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:20.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:39.981000+08:00","text":"這次事件如果不是有政壇大佬的媳婦或是臺大另外的婦產科權威的媳婦、企業家二代或是一些相對有一定政經地位的人都成為受害者，加上臺大校長陳文章能夠秉持他的專業良心，拒絕關說，我想這事也會不了了之。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:40.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:44.162000+08:00","text":"部長，我覺得我們不應該每次都依賴運氣吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:44.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:47.003000+08:00","text":"我也想請問你知不知道這位總統府資政是誰？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:48.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:51.567000+08:00","text":"這位要幫他關說的總統府資政是誰？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:51.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:54.368000+08:00","text":"因為媒體沒有寫名字，所以我不去猜測。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:54.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:54.888000+08:00","text":"你不去猜測？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:54.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:55.709000+08:00","text":"那你知不知道是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:55.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:09:58.810000+08:00","text":"媒體寫的是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:09:58.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:10:06.912000+08:00","text":"對媒體寫的我就說我不去猜測，我是看他的行為對不對這樣。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:10:07.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:10:12.474000+08:00","text":"那我們想要知道這個總統府資政是誰、到底有沒有關說施壓的話，這個調查我們應該怎麼做？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:10:16.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:10:17.048000+08:00","text":"要由總統府來調查嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:10:17.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:10:17.248000+08:00","text":"還是你們可以啟動調查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:10:17.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:10:18.029000+08:00","text":"這個可能要從臺灣大學那邊去瞭解整個調查的過程當中……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:10:18.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:10:18.670000+08:00","text":"所以會變成是教育部的責任嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:10:18.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:10:19.190000+08:00","text":"會變成是教育部要叫臺大去調查清楚嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:10:19.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:10:19.550000+08:00","text":"還是衛福部可以有角色？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:10:41.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:10:53.954000+08:00","text":"我們當然非常關心，所有醫療界的醫師、醫界、福利界的所有工作同仁的尊嚴安全當然都是我們關心的，但是有一定的規範。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:10:54.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:11:18.330000+08:00","text":"部長，我想進一步追問一下，他轉到另外一個婦產科的時候，那個婦產科後來可能發現了這個問題，就表示已經不讓這個醫師做內診了，您是醫界的大佬，也非常有經驗，我想請問一下，婦產科醫師不接觸內診的比例或是他不碰內診的比例可以有多高？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:11:18.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:11:18.730000+08:00","text":"這方面的專家坐在下面。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:11:18.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:11:19.230000+08:00","text":"對，專家就坐在下面，那我再問你……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:11:19.230000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:11:23.630333+08:00","text":"可以問國健署啊！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:11:23.630333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:11:28.030667+08:00","text":"我們都要做抹片啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:11:28.030667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:11:32.431000+08:00","text":"每個都要做抹片啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:11:32.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:11:33.752000+08:00","text":"國健署署長可以回答一下嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:11:33.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:11:34.752000+08:00","text":"如果不做內診大概就不會去做抹片，我想他大概就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:11:33.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:11:38.314000+08:00","text":"那我再進一步追問，今天他是婦產科醫師，有人可能看到這個人的名字來看醫生，那他不做內診，換另外一個醫生幫他做內診，醫療行為若出了問題誰要負責？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:11:58.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:12:02.344000+08:00","text":"做檢查的就會有一個檢查的報告嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:12:02.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:12:06.287000+08:00","text":"譬如我們做超音波檢查就會有超音波檢查的報告，以及負責的醫師……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:12:06.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:12:08.568000+08:00","text":"部長，反正這整件事就是很荒謬！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:12:10.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:12:22.717000+08:00","text":"如果這件事情就這樣不了了之，未來大家可能都要碰運氣，看誰可以把這件事情爆出來，因此我想請問你，這個該如何在制度上進行改善及預防？","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:12:22.717000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:12:23.717000+08:00","text":"在制度上就是要落實所有的規定，也希望真的有受到騷擾的一定要勇於……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:12:23.717000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:12:24.717000+08:00","text":"關於這位醫生的究責或法律行為，現在是怎麼處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:12:24.717000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:12:25.717000+08:00","text":"是你們可以去處理嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:12:25.717000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:12:26.717000+08:00","text":"針對這個案件，現在衛福部可以做些什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:12:24.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:12:57.958000+08:00","text":"報告委員，臺大醫院這個案件很簡單，按照大院剛通過的性騷三法，如果在臺大醫院那邊有任何一方是學生的話，那就是由教育部處理；如果是其他的話，那就是性工法，也就是由勞動部處理。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:12:58.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:00.179000+08:00","text":"所以都不關你們衛福部的事？","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:01.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:03.480000+08:00","text":"目前在衛福部這邊，關於性騷三法……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"張司長秀鴛","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:05.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:14.163000+08:00","text":"如果不屬於性平、不屬於校園、不屬於職場，就是我們主管的性騷擾防治法。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:15.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:18.914000+08:00","text":"現在他的狀況會是你們主管的嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張司長秀鴛","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:18.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:22.537000+08:00","text":"目前看起來，如果對象是一般病患，那就有可能。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:22.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:23.117000+08:00","text":"就是嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:23.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:24.258000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:24.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:26.240000+08:00","text":"你們現在可以做什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張司長秀鴛","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:26.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:37.488000+08:00","text":"他就進入到申訴，在申訴調查屬實之後，應該就會送到臺北市政府社會局進行審議，在審議確定後就會給予行政處罰。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張司長秀鴛","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:37.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:42.372000+08:00","text":"另外，如果他的行為觸犯性騷擾防治法第二十五條，也會進入司法調查。","quality":0.517},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:42.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:13:56.002000+08:00","text":"我希望你們能深入調查，在這中間可能不只這6位是受害者，這6位受害者爆出來真的是比較有辦法影響到大家的關注度，所以我希望你們針對這位醫師好好的調查。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:13:57.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:14:08.652000+08:00","text":"此外，如你所言，如果在受害過程中有一般的病患，而且又碰到有人施壓，我也希望你們針對施壓的那個人好好調查，是否有這樣的狀況？","quality":0.709},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:14:08.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:14:10.933000+08:00","text":"總統府資政到底是誰，請你們給社會一個交代！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:14:11.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:14:17.881000+08:00","text":"哪一個總統府資政這麼囂張，自己人做了性騷擾的事，他還想打電話壓案、吃案，太扯了吧！","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:14:18.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:14:19.022000+08:00","text":"甚至聘用了一個性騷擾的婦產科醫師，還說不讓他看內診，荒謬！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:14:19.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:14:20.263000+08:00","text":"是，我們一定依法辦理。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:14:20.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:15:00.016000+08:00","text":"部長，目前醫美合法的管道有麻醉氾濫及管制的問題，而且非法的地下醫美問題也是很嚴重，橋頭地檢署10月偵辦出高雄商辦內隱藏流動的地下醫美，很多藥品及醫材都是大陸輸入的仿冒品，其實也顯示這段期間地下醫美已經在臺灣逐步形成了產業鏈。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:15:00.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:15:07.740000+08:00","text":"根據醫界的側面了解，地下醫美市場可能占整個醫美市場近61%，數字令人感到震驚！","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:15:08.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:15:23.106000+08:00","text":"針對這些無照服務等等的問題，簡單來講，部長，這個部分要如何加強管制，避免很多病患可能使用到這些不合法的東西，導致他們的權益受損？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:15:24.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:15:51.168000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的關心，如果以這樣的報導來看，確實是令人憂心，也有虧於十幾年來蘇召委及我擔任醫師公會領導者時與醫事司一起致力於醫美方面的管理，讓他們能有一個規則，不然他們也是做得很沒尊嚴，老實講，做的也是很可憐，因為醫師……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:15:51.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:15:55.432000+08:00","text":"部長，時間有限，我還有很重要的問題要問你，所以你要怎麼做？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:15:58.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:16:00.272000+08:00","text":"如果有違法，當然就要查緝啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:16:01.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:16:03.173000+08:00","text":"但是看起來你們的執行很差耶！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:16:03.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:16:13.077000+08:00","text":"我再舉一個例子，關於電子煙氾濫，過去我們也很常質詢這件事情，但是看起來衛福部沒有什麼管制的能力耶！","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:16:13.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:16:30.406000+08:00","text":"網路上隨便一搜就有很多網站販售電子煙，甚至有熱心民眾蒐集了300個違法販售的網站名單，希望你們能夠封禁，關於這個部分，部長知道嗎？","quality":0.807},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:16:30.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:16:31.406000+08:00","text":"我們強烈的要求，尤其是國健署一定要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:16:30.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:16:31.367000+08:00","text":"部長，沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:16:31.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:16:33.689000+08:00","text":"你可能不了解處理的狀況喔！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:16:34.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:16:46.760000+08:00","text":"確實有民眾向Google檢舉，但最終的結果是只要在臺灣的Google分站上面搜尋電子煙，下方就會出現警語，但是在警語出現之後就會連結到300家的名單網頁耶！","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:16:46.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:16:55.026000+08:00","text":"而且這些網站目前都還沒有被停止解析，所以都連得上，這就是因為你們不積極處理，本來是禁止名單，現在變成購買推薦清單耶！","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:16:55.026000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:16:59.352000+08:00","text":"我請吳署長來回應。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長昭軍","start":"2024-12-16T12:16:59.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:02.035000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝委員的關心！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長昭軍","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:02.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:14.446000+08:00","text":"為了這個，我們現在有一個跨部會的平台，而且我們也非常謝謝網路平台業者，經過溝通之後，做了一層、二層、三層的屏蔽及移除。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:14.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:15.767000+08:00","text":"但是看起來現在就是沒有啊！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:15.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:18.729000+08:00","text":"而且他們還發展成很多LINE客服都是重複的ID喔！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:19.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:21.172000+08:00","text":"不同的網站卻是同一個LINE客服喔！","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:21.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:23.594000+08:00","text":"代表它已經是集團化的經營，你們要怎麼做啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳署長昭軍","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:23.594000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:27.049714+08:00","text":"如果真的是違法，我們當然是依法開罰。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:27.049714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:30.505429+08:00","text":"你什麼時候會將這300家禁掉？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長昭軍","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:30.505429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:33.961143+08:00","text":"請把資料給我們，我們再……","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:33.961143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:37.416857+08:00","text":"人家都已經向你們檢舉過了，你們都沒有看嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長昭軍","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:37.416857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:40.872571+08:00","text":"我們已經禁了蠻多了，是不是委員所說的300家？","quality":0},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:40.872571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:44.328286+08:00","text":"我們才上網查過，就是可以進去啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長昭軍","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:44.328286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:47.784000+08:00","text":"我們會盡力處理。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:47.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:51.629000+08:00","text":"請你們不要再這麼鬆散了，這個問題很嚴重。","quality":1},{"speaker":"廖委員偉翔","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:53.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:53.190000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:53.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:54.552000+08:00","text":"我們一定會努力，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:55.052000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:17:57.909143+08:00","text":"好，謝謝廖委員、謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:17:58.209143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:18:03.637714+08:00","text":"接下來要處理臨時提案，共計7案，請一併宣讀。一、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:18:03.937714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:18:24.509143+08:00","text":"鑒於衛生福利部發生諸多職場霸凌事件，然而衛生福利部前後兩次記者會對外說明之職場霸凌調查結果，不但有未詳盡調查之問題，更有為特定主管層級官員袒護卸責之嫌。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:18:24.809143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:18:59.952000+08:00","text":"基於勞動部勞動力發展署針對謝宜容霸凌部屬案，亦有類似情形發生，勞動部重啟第二次完整調查，從第一份報告之「立意良善」、「無直接霸凌被害人」等離譜內容，變更為被害人確有受謝宜容霸凌之事實，顯見機關是否有盡全力、讓部屬可信任而願意坦言，攸關職場霸凌調查報告之事實認定是否有真實。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:19:00.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:19:28.537714+08:00","text":"爰提案要求，衛生福利部應重啟職場霸凌調查，建立基層部屬願意坦言真話、保障其權益之調查方式與機制，針對遭檢舉涉嫌霸凌之各級主管如衛生福利部主秘劉玉娟、長期照顧司司長祝健芳等人，進行完整、詳細之調查，並公開完整調查報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:19:28.837714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:19:31.694857+08:00","text":"陳昭姿　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍二、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:19:31.994857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:19:52.566286+08:00","text":"鑒於衛生福利部發生諸多職場霸凌事件，然而衛生福利部前後兩次記者會對外說明之職場霸凌調查結果，不但有未詳盡調查之問題，更有為特定主管層級官員袒護卸責之嫌。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:19:52.866286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:20:14.866286+08:00","text":"爰提案要求，衛生福利部應於本日下午五時前，將目前推諉卸責之調查報告提送至本院衛環委員會外，並應公開至衛生福利部網站供國人檢視（如涉及個人資料如姓名，可遮蔽或代號代稱）。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:20:15.166286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:20:18.023429+08:00","text":"陳昭姿　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍三、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:20:18.323429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:20:33.466286+08:00","text":"有鑑於國家衛生研究院雖有設立兒童醫學及研究研究中心，然針對兒童醫療與健康的研究、轉譯臨床、照護評估等是有所不足的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:20:33.766286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:20:40.623429+08:00","text":"兒童健康涉及多個學科，如醫學、生物學、公共衛生、社會學等。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:20:40.923429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:21:06.923429+08:00","text":"在醫院成立一個國家級兒童健康研究中心可以有效整合兒科、婦產科、公共衛生等專業，結合醫療、社會、心理等多元面向，進而形成綜合性的治療解決方案資源，集中力量進行兒童健康研究，並提供醫院有效治療或預防方案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:21:07.223429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:21:27.794857+08:00","text":"尤其台灣面臨少子化的今天，兒童醫學的主要目的就是保護已出生的孩童，減少孩童的折損，因此兒童醫學最重要的方向應該是確保18歲以下的兒少族群健康或得到良好治療。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:21:28.094857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:21:53.237714+08:00","text":"爰提案要求政府選定具代表性兒童醫院，在其下成立兒童健康研究中心，作為兒童健康提升與醫療研究的平台，促進不同醫療機構和科研單位之間的合作與協同，整合研究與醫療實務，以顯著降低兒童患病的風險。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:21:53.537714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:21:54.680571+08:00","text":"是否有當？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:21:54.980571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:21:56.123429+08:00","text":"敬請公決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:21:56.423429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:21:59.280571+08:00","text":"蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一四、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:21:59.580571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:22:37.866286+08:00","text":"有鑑於一名49歲女性日前到台北市中山區某知名醫美診所進行醫美手術，於舒眠麻醉期間陷入昏迷，送醫不治，2018年時，一連串醫美診所無麻醉醫師在場的麻醉相關意外，間接或直接導致在2018年9月6日修訂「特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法」（後簡稱：特管法），對部分醫美整形手術的麻醉資格及規範做了明確的訂定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:22:38.166286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:23:03.023429+08:00","text":"依目前除在執行「特管法」第25條有規定的8項手術，包括削骨、中臉部、全臉部拉皮、大量抽脂、腹部整形、鼻整形、義乳植入的乳房整形、全身拉皮手術時的麻醉資格有所規範限制外，其他的光電、醫美、或整形手術並沒有規範。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:23:03.323429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:23:11.894857+08:00","text":"爰提案要求衛福部比照醫療體系，針對所有醫美涉及麻醉項目，納入規範。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:23:12.194857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:23:13.337714+08:00","text":"是否有當？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:23:13.637714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:23:14.780571+08:00","text":"請公決案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:23:15.080571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:23:17.937714+08:00","text":"蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一五、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:23:18.237714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:23:37.380571+08:00","text":"有鑑於衛福部本月12日公布8件霸凌案調查的結果中，竟確定了業務單位主官要求同仁「伏地挺身、深蹲」是鼓勵，沒有強迫；至於所屬職員遭主管開口「你們必須先自殺啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:23:37.680571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:23:52.252000+08:00","text":"你等人家來他殺」及「你要先自殺，一定要先表示你的誠意」等內容，甚至也被認定不構成霸凌，並因此盡失國人對衛福部的認同。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:23:52.552000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:24:09.980571+08:00","text":"爰此，考量衛福部把此等荒謬的內部管理標準合理化後，會讓往後的施政及業務背後，極有可能仍會有數不盡遭霸凌的「人血饅頭」存在，如此實在不妥。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:24:10.280571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:24:20.280571+08:00","text":"是以，決議衛福部應限期於一周內完成重啟調查並對外公開，藉此挽救殆盡之公信力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:24:20.580571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:24:23.437714+08:00","text":"陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　蘇清泉六、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:24:23.737714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:24:45.166286+08:00","text":"有鑑於少子化國安危機加劇惡化，譬如新生兒數在2022年農曆虎年有13萬8,986人，而今年龍年累積到11月的新生兒則是12萬2,360人，預估今年僅會有13.4萬人，形成龍年誕生的新生兒比虎年還少情形。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:24:45.466286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:25:05.180571+08:00","text":"爰此，考量國家財政上受胎兒生產數下降，將對國庫有減少健保支出的連帶影響，因此政府應該考量損益關係，再挹注並補足相當經費加大辦理對孕婦的經濟支持措施。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:25:05.480571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:25:29.480571+08:00","text":"是以，特決議衛福部應限期辦理含產檢、計程車、嬰兒用品和孕婦用品在內之「早期、中期及晚期懷孕券補助政策」研議作業，且當中應有延用至產後一年的規劃，俟後限期於二個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:25:29.780571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:25:32.637714+08:00","text":"陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　蘇清泉七、","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:25:32.937714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:25:46.366286+08:00","text":"有鑑於我國器官捐贈移植等候人數中，乃以腎臟8,000多名病患最多，且等候移植過程更連帶影響其與家屬生活甚深。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:25:46.666286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:26:06.094857+08:00","text":"是以，中華民國多囊腎腎友協會更已正式決議，支持推動主管機關就腎臟活體捐贈資格，應自目前五親等以內血親或配偶，放寬參照肝臟活體捐贈五親等姻親之規範。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:26:06.394857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:26:26.109143+08:00","text":"是以，考量衛福部應積極參採此等意見，並促進患者能速回歸正常人生，爰要求衛福部限期於一個月內啟動研議及修正作業，俟後於三個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:26:26.409143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:26:29.837714+08:00","text":"陳菁徽　　黃健豪　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:26:30.137714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:26:34.137714+08:00","text":"請問行政單位對第1案有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:26:34.437714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:26:37.580571+08:00","text":"主席以及各位委員，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:26:37.880571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:27:01.880571+08:00","text":"衛福部對於這個臨時提案有關於霸凌的部分有三點說明：第一個，我們必須要說提案文字還是有部分斷章取義的問題，譬如剛剛提到自殺、他殺等等，我們都已經還原當時的脈絡，因此，基本上恐怕還是不宜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:27:02.180571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:27:14.466286+08:00","text":"第二個，對於判斷到底是否為霸凌，我們都是基於事證及相關的訪談，剛剛我們也說過已經訪談了96位同仁。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:27:14.766286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:27:32.480571+08:00","text":"在這個過程當中，他們其實也都希望能夠匿名，如果一旦公布的話，可能會被行為人按圖索驥，基於保護同仁及對於調查的信任，我們認為恐怕還是不宜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:27:32.780571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:27:59.637714+08:00","text":"第三個，除非有非常有利的新事實、新證據，否則，在目前已做過非常詳細的調查以及訪談之後所獲得的結論，基本上，我們還是建議要尊重專業調查委員會的調查，但是我們可以在一週內就整個相關的程序在內部進行相關的檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:27:59.937714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:28:02.794857+08:00","text":"以上4點向會上說明，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:28:03.094857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:28:05.952000+08:00","text":"陳委員，你要表達嗎？有啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:28:06.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:28:08.537714+08:00","text":"一定要的，謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:28:08.837714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:28:18.837714+08:00","text":"呂次長，早上我沒有對你拍桌子，你竟然說疑似輕生的案子是操作，不樂見刻意的操作！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:28:19.137714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:28:29.709143+08:00","text":"我可是與家屬聯繫過了，基本上，當時家屬是要投訴的，但因為他們覺得不可能有效、不可能！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:28:30.009143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:28:43.152000+08:00","text":"但是現在他們覺得有人要替他們討公道了，因此，基本上先生與3個孩子都希望能夠有機會幫媽媽、幫妻子討公道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:28:43.452000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:28:59.166286+08:00","text":"呂次，剛剛你提到102年的部分，如果她有所謂憂鬱症的症狀，為什麼她的主管還繼續在職場霸凌她，讓她最後做了一個不可逆的痛苦決定？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:28:59.466286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:29:04.037714+08:00","text":"你這次有沒有去調查她旁邊的同事們？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:29:04.337714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:29:09.766286+08:00","text":"有沒有調查聽到「劉玉娟」就會顫抖的那位同事？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:29:10.066286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:29:21.494857+08:00","text":"在你們的第一次報告之後，我丟出錄音帶，拼命叫同事去輕生、自殺，你還要幫她找全部的影帶出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:29:21.794857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:29:30.080571+08:00","text":"她平常講的話很多，每次都是叫人家去輕生、自殺，你是聽當事人解釋嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:29:30.380571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:29:36.952000+08:00","text":"呂次，關於你剛剛講的102年那個東西，你知道是誰調查的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:29:37.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:29:54.680571+08:00","text":"就是現在的當事人調查的、就是劉玉娟組長與她的心腹賴科長調查後做的報告，現在你用當事人做的報告來告訴我，你這個講法等於是二次傷害啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:29:54.980571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:04.123429+08:00","text":"我正在邀請，家屬準備帶她朋友來我的辦公室拜訪，說不定我會召開記者會啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:04.423429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:16.994857+08:00","text":"在你第一次報告時，我丟出那個錄音帶，還要經檢舉人同意，你們說錄音帶可能會斷章取義，就聽得很清楚啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:17.294857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:19.866286+08:00","text":"拼命叫她輕生、輕生啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:20.166286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:22.166286+08:00","text":"第二次出來之後……","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:22.466286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:25.037714+08:00","text":"我可以做一個說明嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:25.337714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:32.480571+08:00","text":"你最好是好好的說明，不要避重就輕，不然我覺得是浪費時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:32.780571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:46.780571+08:00","text":"報告委員，三個重點：第一個，根據我們的了解，這位同仁是102年開始有相關的就診紀錄，如果委員有需要的話，我們可以把它……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:47.080571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:51.366286+08:00","text":"你們這次的調查有訪談她的家屬嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:51.666286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:54.523429+08:00","text":"有訪談她當時的同事嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:54.823429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:56.537714+08:00","text":"你怎麼調查的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:56.837714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:30:59.694857+08:00","text":"這個部分是不是請……對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:30:59.994857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:31:03.137714+08:00","text":"你就是拿她當時的報告啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:31:03.437714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:31:06.294857+08:00","text":"那個報告就是有問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:31:06.594857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:31:13.452000+08:00","text":"到今天這個霸凌案出現之後，才會有這麼多人向我投訴啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:31:13.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:31:20.323429+08:00","text":"對於臺北業務組的人而言，劉玉娟的上任是一個噩夢啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:31:20.623429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:31:24.052000+08:00","text":"這個部分是不是請健保署來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:31:24.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:31:25.780571+08:00","text":"你調查了誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:31:26.080571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:31:28.652000+08:00","text":"你告訴我，你調查了誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:31:28.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:31:50.666286+08:00","text":"先向委員做個報告，主秘這個案子成立的時候，因為是屬於業務組，所以我們當初問卷的部分是健保署的業務組及我們的社保司，至於業務組這個範圍是不是請健保署先做個說明？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:31:50.966286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:31:56.680571+08:00","text":"那個時候她還沒到健保署，她是去年才到健保署。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:31:56.980571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:02.980571+08:00","text":"報告委員，我想這是兩件事，所以要將它分開來討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:03.280571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:06.709143+08:00","text":"第一個，你提到的是109年6月可能……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:07.009143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:08.009143+08:00","text":"輕生了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:08.309143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:14.309143+08:00","text":"關於她在102年至109年的整個過程，其實大家可以來了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:14.609143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:15.752000+08:00","text":"大家是誰？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:16.052000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:20.337714+08:00","text":"為什麼她的家屬、同事認為不是這樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:20.637714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:22.066286+08:00","text":"沒關係，如果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:22.366286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:28.652000+08:00","text":"因為她原本有憂鬱症，所以你認為就可以加以霸凌嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:28.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:32.380571+08:00","text":"讓她做出這樣的最後決定嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:32.680571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:41.252000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，其實她中間一直在休假，這個部分是一件事情，我們可以來檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:41.552000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:42.980571+08:00","text":"第二件事情……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:43.280571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:32:52.137714+08:00","text":"要不是你們的調查過程那麼不公平、那麼沒有真相，這個是最不得已的案例。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:32:52.437714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:33:10.152000+08:00","text":"因為我們是調查當時劉組長的時候，她是在109年3月就任，這位同仁其實前面都在請假，如果要檢討的話，是不是應該要檢討102年到109年當中，她的狀況是怎麼樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:33:10.452000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:33:19.594857+08:00","text":"你要好好處理這個案子，當初她擔任組長的時候有將近10個科長降調、轉職、退休。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:33:19.894857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:33:28.180571+08:00","text":"從102年到109年，如果家屬真的是覺得有疑慮，我們會好好地針對這個做檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:33:28.480571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:33:36.766286+08:00","text":"至於職場霸凌這個部分，又是後面發展的一些事情，我們另外再來調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:33:37.066286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:33:40.780571+08:00","text":"霸凌有各種形式，從前面開始啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:33:41.080571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:33:47.080571+08:00","text":"因為overlap可能只有2、3個月，但是在這中間……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:33:47.380571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:33:49.952000+08:00","text":"你重啟調查、重啟調查！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:33:50.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:33:53.109143+08:00","text":"不是，這個與這個的關係……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:33:53.409143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:05.694857+08:00","text":"109年是現在的當事人所做的調查報告，而且現在的對象還是同一個人，你把她的報告拿來當作你的報告嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:05.994857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:08.280571+08:00","text":"你有重新去調查嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:08.580571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:13.437714+08:00","text":"原則上，我們應該是沒有調查102年這個部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:13.737714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:18.309143+08:00","text":"你沒有去調查，我知道你沒有去調查嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:18.609143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:22.894857+08:00","text":"因為沒有調查到102年的部分，所以這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:23.194857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:28.909143+08:00","text":"人家隱忍很久，現在有人願意幫助他們討公道了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:29.209143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:35.209143+08:00","text":"我認為這是一個新的事證，我們可以來做調查，OK。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:35.509143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:43.794857+08:00","text":"在第一次報告的時候，我給你新的事證就是錄音帶，但是你們忽視它啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:44.094857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:48.094857+08:00","text":"甚至說那個錄音帶是斷章取義啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:48.394857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:53.252000+08:00","text":"因為那個錄音帶與這位同仁沒有關係啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:53.552000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:57.552000+08:00","text":"第二次報告的時候，我只好再丟啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:34:57.852000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:34:59.852000+08:00","text":"再丟一個訊息啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:00.152000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:02.437714+08:00","text":"再丟訃聞給你看啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:02.737714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:07.880571+08:00","text":"對，你這個部分就是一個新的事證，從102年到109年。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:08.180571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:10.752000+08:00","text":"不是只有她一個人喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:11.052000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:13.623429+08:00","text":"那個環境有很多人喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:13.923429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:21.637714+08:00","text":"沒關係，關於這個部分，我們會來調查，從102年到109年到底發生了什麼事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:21.937714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:24.223429+08:00","text":"那就是重啟調查嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:24.523429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:26.809143+08:00","text":"那就是重啟調查嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:27.109143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:31.680571+08:00","text":"但是對於已經調查過的部分，也已經有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:31.980571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:41.409143+08:00","text":"剛剛回答說主秘只能限閱，但是她還在主秘的位置上，未來可以看到很多資料耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:41.709143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:43.994857+08:00","text":"她可以秋後算帳耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:44.294857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:51.152000+08:00","text":"只要有相關的都不會被看到，剛剛人事處處長已經講得很……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:51.452000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:35:56.309143+08:00","text":"重點是她的職位，你要保障她的職位，是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:35:56.609143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:36:00.323429+08:00","text":"她的職位是一人之下、萬人之上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:36:00.623429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:36:09.766286+08:00","text":"說實在的，我到衛福部之後與誰都沒有關係，我們都是非常公平的對待所有人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:36:10.066286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:36:18.352000+08:00","text":"那天我叫她上來，你馬上就告訴我，她很認真，但認真與霸凌有什麼關係？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:36:18.652000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:36:27.223429+08:00","text":"不是，因為你第一次提的時候，上面寫的是年輕、很有潛力，但是她不年輕了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:36:27.523429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:36:32.952000+08:00","text":"那是另外一個檢舉案，但是我已經收到主秘的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:36:33.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:36:40.394857+08:00","text":"所以那個時候那些字的確不是在形容她，只是這樣子而已啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:36:40.694857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:36:49.266286+08:00","text":"那天不是形容她，但是對於主秘有主秘的檢舉者，所以我後來才請她上來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:36:49.566286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:36:52.709143+08:00","text":"對，後來也列入調查了。好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:36:53.009143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:36:54.152000+08:00","text":"不要講了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:36:54.452000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:37:07.309143+08:00","text":"主席，我就是2案都要，對於你現在的報告，我要看到內容，而且你要重啟調查，不然變成是我在調查，我幫你調查喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:37:07.609143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:37:09.609143+08:00","text":"當然我們會調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:37:09.909143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:37:15.337714+08:00","text":"部長，第1案與第2案就先保留，協調看看要怎麼寫。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:37:15.637714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:37:19.352000+08:00","text":"處理第3案，行政單位有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:37:19.652000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:37:21.080571+08:00","text":"應該還好吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉司長越萍","start":"2024-12-16T12:37:21.380571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:37:39.380571+08:00","text":"在委員的提案文字加上「研議」，也就是「爰提案要求政府研議選定具代表性兒童醫院」，因為這個需要與5家兒童醫院做一個討論，所以建議在此新增2個字，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:37:39.680571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:37:43.680571+08:00","text":"好，同意，第3案就這樣修改通過。第4案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉司長越萍","start":"2024-12-16T12:37:43.980571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:38:06.837714+08:00","text":"第4案也是修改為「研議納入規範」，因為這個地方要做一些相對上的討論，全部納入的時候，我們覺得還是在過去的規定中重新檢討如何落實才是重點，所以建議新增「研議」2個字，也就是「研議納入規範」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:38:07.137714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:38:12.280571+08:00","text":"「針對所有醫美涉及麻醉項目，研議納入規範。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:38:12.580571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:38:14.009143+08:00","text":"」好，通過。第5案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:38:14.309143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:38:15.452000+08:00","text":"請陳菁徽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:38:15.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:38:21.752000+08:00","text":"關於第5案，基本上，我的意思與第1案、第2案是差不多的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:38:22.052000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:00.052000+08:00","text":"剛剛所有質詢的委員幾乎沒有人對這份報告信服，內容中實際有文字大概是4頁，但關於調查的內容卻不到1頁，而且大家對於最後送出來的處分也是一頭霧水，完全不知道發生什麼事，對於這些中階主管、公務員們為什麼被調職也是一無所知，反而是接獲許多陳情的這些司長們記過，甚至說沒有霸凌的事實、又說是管理不當。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:00.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:05.780571+08:00","text":"因此，我覺得我的第5案就與第1案、第2案一起保留。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:06.080571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:09.794857+08:00","text":"第5案與第1案、第2案一起保留。第6案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳署長昭軍","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:10.094857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:11.237714+08:00","text":"遵照辦理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:11.537714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:12.966286+08:00","text":"第6案OK嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:13.266286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:15.552000+08:00","text":"OK，謝謝。通過。第7案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉司長越萍","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:15.852000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:21.566286+08:00","text":"第7案的部分，是否容許我們修改為「啟動研議作業」？","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉司長越萍","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:21.866286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:41.009143+08:00","text":"基本上，因為肝臟有再生能力，放寬之後會產生的倫理疑慮比較小，但一個人只有2顆腎臟，在這樣的狀況下，放寬姻親這個部分，可能會有交易、假結婚等倫理上的考量。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉司長越萍","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:41.309143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:44.452000+08:00","text":"因此，研議其實是可以啟動……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:44.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:48.752000+08:00","text":"我們要「啟動研議」，把「修正作業」刪除。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉司長越萍","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:49.052000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:39:51.052000+08:00","text":"對，研議作業這邊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:39:51.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:40:01.923429+08:00","text":"當初我之所以會提，實際上也是因為這些病友團體的陳情，他們有這個需求，因為很年輕嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:40:02.223429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:40:17.366286+08:00","text":"二、三十歲卻要洗腎一輩子，如果能夠有腎臟移植的話，他們可以與一般人一樣出國、旅遊，不然他們的人生會有六、七十年都要洗腎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉司長越萍","start":"2024-12-16T12:40:17.666286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:40:27.094857+08:00","text":"在器捐中心這邊其實也有收到相同協會的來文，我們本來就預備要作一些溝通。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉司長越萍","start":"2024-12-16T12:40:27.394857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:40:38.252000+08:00","text":"因為肝臟具有再生能力，這一塊在規範上就能稍微比較放寬，姻親這部分的倫理考量比較少。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉司長越萍","start":"2024-12-16T12:40:38.552000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:41:09.694857+08:00","text":"至於腎臟的部分，如同我剛剛所講的，因為一個人只有2顆腎臟，如果捐贈一顆之後，自己只剩下一顆，在這樣的狀況下，過去血親的限制因為限縮比較小，在倫理上的考量比較小，但今天的提案要從血親開放到姻親的部分，後面可能需要一些配套措施的考量，因此，在這邊……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:41:09.994857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:41:26.852000+08:00","text":"為什麼會有這樣的陳情，也是因為他們有實際上的需求，我覺得可以改成一個月內研議，也可以參考世界各國的標準，所以把「修正作業」刪除。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:41:27.152000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:41:32.866286+08:00","text":"就是「一個月內啟動研議作業」，把「及修正」拿掉，通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:41:33.166286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:41:39.166286+08:00","text":"現在我們休息20分鐘，順便討論前面3個提案，吃便當啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:41:39.466286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:41:42.609143+08:00","text":"保留的部分，請處長再說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:41:42.909143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:41:54.623429+08:00","text":"報告委員會，第1、2、5案關於我們的調查報告要不要公布的部分，我以一個議事單位的立場在此稍作說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:41:54.923429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:42:10.637714+08:00","text":"第一個，當初這個霸凌案件會不會成立，我們的認定是根據提供的事證，無論是媒體或委員或部長，第一個是事證、第二個是同仁的約談。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:42:10.937714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:42:23.223429+08:00","text":"關於同仁的約談，剛剛委員也看到了，大概平均每個當事人都有接近10人次的約談，而且是非常深度的約談。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:42:23.523429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:42:48.094857+08:00","text":"如果我今天將調查報告公布出來，因為當初同仁接受約談是希望能夠匿名，也因為是匿名，所以他講的案件是非常的深入，包括是在什麼樣的情境下遭受到一些管理的行為，再加上他目前的身心狀況是怎麼樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:42:48.394857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:43:08.966286+08:00","text":"即使我再怎麼樣去匿名化，其實按圖索驥都可以找出蛛絲馬跡，現有的同仁還是會受到一些驚恐，因此，我們認為這些深度的調查報告確實是不宜公布，而且我們也怕一旦公布……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:43:09.266286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:43:35.266286+08:00","text":"比照勞動部的規格就可以了，其實勞動部的第一份報告也上去了，明明有那麼多事實，但它的解讀都是不相關，即使是如此，但它還是把完整的資料都送上去，在第二次重啟後，整個判斷就完全不一樣，從不相關變成直接相關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:43:35.566286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:43:55.566286+08:00","text":"我只是要表達同仁在約談過程中確實有這樣的心聲，其實這次的調查報告就有很多是根據同仁的約談，而且現在大部分的同仁都還在部裡面服務，我先做以上說明，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:43:55.866286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:43:59.294857+08:00","text":"比照勞動部的規格就可以了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:43:59.594857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:44:02.452000+08:00","text":"主席，我們要投票、要表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:44:02.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:44:08.466286+08:00","text":"名字都可以遮起來，比照勞動部的規格，去個資啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:44:08.766286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:44:14.480571+08:00","text":"這份報告只有A4的新聞稿紙，根本是業務報告啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:44:14.780571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:44:20.209143+08:00","text":"今天根本不是調查結果報告，而是業務報告啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:44:20.509143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:44:42.794857+08:00","text":"報告召委及委員，誠如剛剛處長所言，這個真的是基於同仁信賴我們的調查機制才願意站出來，我們也非常珍視這樣的信任，相信委員也與我們一樣，希望能夠保護同仁，一定都是這樣的心理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:44:43.094857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:44:54.809143+08:00","text":"整個過程好不容易大家都已經有這樣的信賴，如果因為這樣而中斷了彼此的信任，老實說，我們的96位……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:44:55.109143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:45:03.394857+08:00","text":"你們不給看，卻又說都沒事、都沒事，但我一直質疑、一直提出新事證給你。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:45:03.694857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:45:09.694857+08:00","text":"剛剛部長也講了，委員一開始提到另外的那個部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:45:09.994857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:45:13.423429+08:00","text":"為什麼你不在這次就做好呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:45:13.723429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:45:16.866286+08:00","text":"把個資蓋掉，你不會不懂吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:45:17.166286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:45:20.023429+08:00","text":"No、No、No，報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:45:20.323429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:45:26.037714+08:00","text":"把個資蓋掉，到底這個人做了什麼事、講了什麼話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:45:26.337714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:45:40.052000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這不只是把個資蓋掉的問題而已，其中還牽涉到目前任職於哪個單位等等，確實是很容易被人家按圖索驥。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:45:40.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:45:44.637714+08:00","text":"反正你要一手遮天、你要一手遮天啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:45:44.937714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:45:51.509143+08:00","text":"我們不希望透過這樣的結果讓同仁也再受到二次傷害。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:45:51.809143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:02.380571+08:00","text":"剛剛你說輕生事件是不樂見的操作，這句話就傷害了死者的家屬，你就是二度傷害了他們！","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:02.680571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:04.966286+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:05.266286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:11.552000+08:00","text":"他是與我有聯繫的，如果哪天我把他帶到你的面前呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:11.852000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:14.994857+08:00","text":"如果有新事實、新證據的話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:15.294857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:19.294857+08:00","text":"那不是新事實，而是已經發生的事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:19.594857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:25.594857+08:00","text":"就這個部分而言，我們當然可以……但是我必須要強調……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:25.894857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:29.037714+08:00","text":"我們要求表決、我們要表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:29.337714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:40.766286+08:00","text":"報告委員，我真的要強調一點，同仁們願意站出來，老實說，我身為主席，對於同仁也有保護的義務啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:41.066286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:45.637714+08:00","text":"他們都希望匿名後勇敢站出來，我覺得……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:45.937714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:48.509143+08:00","text":"我有說要公開名字嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:48.809143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:52.523429+08:00","text":"剛剛我已經說過了，不僅僅只有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:52.823429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:55.394857+08:00","text":"到底有什麼難言之隱？","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:55.694857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:46:57.123429+08:00","text":"這沒有什麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:46:57.423429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:47:04.280571+08:00","text":"主席，我們要求表決、表決，比照勞動部規格、比照勞動部規格。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:47:04.580571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:47:09.152000+08:00","text":"委員，我也是個公務員，必須要先說一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:47:09.452000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:47:16.309143+08:00","text":"因為同仁反彈，真的講得很深入，他把怎麼樣處理的行為都……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:47:16.609143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:47:24.037714+08:00","text":"那麼嚴重，結果你們的判決這麼輕，最後你們處理的結果很輕啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:47:24.337714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:47:26.623429+08:00","text":"輕輕帶過，都沒事啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:47:26.923429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:47:29.494857+08:00","text":"沒有，綜整所有必要的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:47:29.794857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:47:32.366286+08:00","text":"你們越講就越離譜了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:47:32.666286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:47:38.952000+08:00","text":"那麼深入，難怪有很多不能講的，最後你們的調查結果……","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:47:39.252000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:47:46.394857+08:00","text":"真的要勿縱，但是也要勿枉，我覺得這個前提真的是要把握住。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:47:46.694857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:47:47.837714+08:00","text":"表決、表決。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:47:48.137714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:48:00.423429+08:00","text":"因為我擔任過立委，也知道立委都有義務了解內情，而且大家都是德高望重，當然也會知所輕重，這個東西……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:48:00.723429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:48:03.866286+08:00","text":"真相只敢丟給立委，怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:48:04.166286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:48:06.452000+08:00","text":"還是在野黨的立委！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:48:06.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:48:25.894857+08:00","text":"我們把識別化盡量識別得好一點，再送交給委員，委員再來判斷適不適合，因為大幅公告可能真的會有很多可以按圖索驥的部分，我也相信委員能夠判斷你要做的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-12-16T12:48:26.194857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:48:27.909143+08:00","text":"保護被霸凌者。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:48:28.209143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:48:39.066286+08:00","text":"對，保護被霸凌者，因此我建議，如果你們看了還不滿意，那麼下次再來要求，我們也都樂意接受。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:48:39.366286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:48:46.794857+08:00","text":"部長，你的意思是你們先處理一下，再將資料提供給我們看，對嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:48:47.094857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:48:51.380571+08:00","text":"我建議就送到每一位委員的辦公室。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:48:51.680571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:48:53.109143+08:00","text":"我們就親持……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:48:53.409143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:49:05.409143+08:00","text":"我們會把資料送到委員的辦公室，最好是我們再親自過去報告，如果你們有什麼疑問就可以當場討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:49:05.709143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:49:23.137714+08:00","text":"我覺得就在每位委員的辦公室先處理，這樣你們就能看到所有的詳情，但是你們就會判斷一旦公布出去可能會害到受訪者，這樣我們就會更加謹慎。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:49:23.437714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:49:33.723429+08:00","text":"如果第二階段之後，你們還是覺得需要怎麼樣的話，我們再來做下一步都沒關係，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:49:34.023429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:49:39.452000+08:00","text":"至於102年到109年的那件事情，我們可以再進行調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:49:39.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:49:42.894857+08:00","text":"涉及人命的事真的要慎重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:49:43.194857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:49:46.623429+08:00","text":"那就好好的立案調查，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:49:46.923429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:49:48.352000+08:00","text":"家屬在期待。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:49:48.652000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:49:51.509143+08:00","text":"沒關係，家屬只要有期待……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:49:51.809143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:49:55.237714+08:00","text":"家屬不敢找你們、只敢找我們。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:49:55.537714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:49:56.537714+08:00","text":"沒關係！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:49:56.837714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:50:09.123429+08:00","text":"我也是身為醫療人員，一定是關心弱勢或受害者，我的心與你是一樣的，這個部分就另外重啟調查，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:50:09.423429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:50:14.566286+08:00","text":"重啟調查是針對在臺北業務組的那段期間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:50:14.866286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:50:15.866286+08:00","text":"102年到109年……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:50:16.166286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:50:20.166286+08:00","text":"有多少離職的、降調的，那些也都是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:50:20.466286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:50:22.752000+08:00","text":"澈底調查，都沒關係。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:50:23.052000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:50:29.052000+08:00","text":"如果家屬需要這樣的調查才能心安，我們也會做到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:50:29.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:50:43.637714+08:00","text":"這是102年到109年的過程，紀員在109年離世之前其實一直都在請假，因為她的長官也要她休假、不要上班，現在所講的都是我的了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:50:43.937714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:50:45.937714+08:00","text":"這些一面之詞啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:50:46.237714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:50:49.094857+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們會進行調查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:50:49.394857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:51:11.966286+08:00","text":"另外，我們將調查報告去識別化之後，3天之後就開始到個別委員的辦公室報告，再由你們判斷要不要走下一步，或是覺得這樣的處罰、這樣的處理就已經得當了，我認為這樣做才有辦法保護大家。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:51:12.266286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:51:29.694857+08:00","text":"況且，說實在的，就像我高中三年期間只有一次因為有人到我家買東西而慢了10分鐘出門，結果全勤獎就沒有了，這件事在我的一生中都覺得相當遺憾！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:51:29.994857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:51:57.709143+08:00","text":"同樣的，做了三十幾年的公務員被記申誡，一生為了國家而努力，所以我們也應該要勿縱勿枉，況且記過對於努力的公務員而言，已經是非常大的紀錄、而且是終生的紀錄，即使後面再記功、再怎麼樣，他就是曾經被記過、他就是曾經被記申誡。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:51:58.009143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:52:08.294857+08:00","text":"因此我們要好好思考怎麼樣做最適當，讓基層到主管的每一位同仁都能好好為國做事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:52:08.594857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:52:14.023429+08:00","text":"以上是我的建議，不知道各位委員能不能接受？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:52:14.323429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:52:18.323429+08:00","text":"我們先按照部長所講的方式進行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:52:18.623429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:52:20.337714+08:00","text":"我們一定落實。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:52:20.637714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:52:24.637714+08:00","text":"如果不滿意的話，我們還是要提案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:52:24.937714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:52:28.937714+08:00","text":"可以、可以，一定要說明到大家滿意。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂次長建德","start":"2024-12-16T12:52:29.237714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:52:39.809143+08:00","text":"按照部長的指示，由同仁親持去識別化的報告，到有提案的委員辦公室進行報告，這樣好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:52:40.109143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:52:51.252000+08:00","text":"這就是我們認為不足的部分，因為民代的證據永遠比你們多，因為他們不敢、他們害怕秋後算帳。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:52:51.552000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:00.409143+08:00","text":"如果那些證據超越我們調查的內容就算是新事證，我們再加進調查，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:00.709143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:04.423429+08:00","text":"我們這個調查小組還是存在啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:04.723429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:08.723429+08:00","text":"我們會繼續調查，調查到水落石出。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:09.023429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:17.309143+08:00","text":"說實在的，我想大家都是很願意接受考驗，因為大家都是為國家打拼嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:17.609143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:24.466286+08:00","text":"部長，為了慎重起見，你們自己內部還是再重啟調查一次吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:24.766286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:35.052000+08:00","text":"部長，其實剛剛劉建國委員也對這件事情質詢非常久，好像不只是有提案的委員而已吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:35.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:48.494857+08:00","text":"因為大家急著要看報告，所以幾天之內先將報告送給大家看，如果覺得還是不滿意，到時候就再走下一步，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:48.794857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:49.937714+08:00","text":"不然的話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:50.237714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:53.380571+08:00","text":"不是只有提案的委員而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:53.680571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:54.680571+08:00","text":"沒關係！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:54.980571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:53:57.837714+08:00","text":"所有衛環的委員都可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2024-12-16T12:53:58.137714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:54:00.994857+08:00","text":"因為剛剛有太多人問了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:54:01.294857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:54:16.723429+08:00","text":"沒問題，我想無論是哪一黨的委員應該都很關心，所以我們一定會去說明，直到各位認為新的事證是無法cover的，那我們再來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2024-12-16T12:54:17.023429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:54:25.594857+08:00","text":"部長，我先確認一下，剛剛的決議是要給全部衛環的委員，或是給非衛環的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:54:25.894857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:54:27.894857+08:00","text":"全部衛環的委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2024-12-16T12:54:28.194857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:54:43.052000+08:00","text":"也要再確定，因為你們剛剛提到調查時很多公務體系的人都如驚弓之鳥，如果要有密件出來的話，也請大家恪遵密件不得外流。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員月琴","start":"2024-12-16T12:54:43.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:55:07.637714+08:00","text":"因為我以前也擔任過調查委員，當他們願意站出來舉報、說明的時候，同時他們也是承擔了很大的心理壓力，如果你們只是去了個資，但是有些脈絡沒辦法去掉的話，搞不好我們又會製造了另外一場傷害，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:55:07.937714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:55:25.652000+08:00","text":"所以我們就親自到委員辦公室，就像我擔任立委員時也有很多這類的狀況，去個資之後我們再去看，說實在的，連copy都不行，我們只能記在腦海裡。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:55:25.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:55:40.809143+08:00","text":"這件事就先這樣處理，如果大家認為有需要走第二步，或是整個證據超過我們cover的範圍，我們就會再繼續調查，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:55:41.109143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:55:56.537714+08:00","text":"他們的調查報告有好幾十頁，我們是要求交給提案委員，不要交給助理，萬一被助理洩漏出去，恐怕會對這些公務人員造成二次傷害。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:55:56.837714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:18.266286+08:00","text":"爰為建立基層部屬願意坦言真話、保障其權益之調查方式與機制，針對遭檢舉涉嫌霸凌之各級主管如二位司長等人，請衛福部去識別化後，一週內親持調查報告向提案委員報告說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:18.566286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:20.566286+08:00","text":"三個案子都一樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:20.866286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:25.437714+08:00","text":"此外，也要向全部的衛環委員逐一報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:25.737714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:27.452000+08:00","text":"一個禮拜夠嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:27.752000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:28.752000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:29.052000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:30.480571+08:00","text":"你要說好喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:30.780571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:34.209143+08:00","text":"應該是在3天之內就開始了嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:34.509143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:39.080571+08:00","text":"委員自己要給出時間，我覺得是互相的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:39.380571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:42.237714+08:00","text":"一週應該是可以啦！15位喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:42.537714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:43.966286+08:00","text":"二週好嗎？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李處長玉惠","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:44.266286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:47.980571+08:00","text":"二週是要我們全部報告完畢嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:48.280571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:49.709143+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。好啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:50.009143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:56.580571+08:00","text":"那就是二週內親持調查報告向衛環委員會的委員報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:56.880571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:56:57.880571+08:00","text":"要本人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:56:58.180571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:01.609143+08:00","text":"要本人，不要給助理，這樣不好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱部長泰源","start":"2024-12-16T12:57:01.909143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:05.623429+08:00","text":"拜託委員盡量挪出時間給我們。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:57:05.923429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:08.209143+08:00","text":"陳菁徽，可以嗎？可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:57:08.509143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:11.937714+08:00","text":"陳昭姿委員，這樣可以嗎？可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:57:12.237714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:16.237714+08:00","text":"這三個案就照這樣處理，改一下喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:57:16.537714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:25.109143+08:00","text":"臨時提案全部處理完畢，我們現在休息15分鐘，先吃飯，之後再接續進行質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:57:25.409143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:26.552000+08:00","text":"休息（12時51分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:57:26.852000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:28.566286+08:00","text":"繼續開會（13時9分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:57:28.866286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:30.580571+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:57:30.880571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:35.737714+08:00","text":"我們節省時間，本委員會的要縮短時間啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-16T12:57:36.037714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-16T12:57:38.323429+08:00","text":"請王育敏委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1435,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（11時59分）謝謝主席！有請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長你好。今天準備的題目比較多，我想先問一下，再生醫療雙法在上個會期的6月19號公布通過，條文的最後有說相關的施行細則跟施行日期由衛福部與行政院定之，現在還差幾天就滿半年了，為何迄今還不公布細則跟日期？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這分兩個，一個是再生醫療法，一個是再生醫療製劑條例，再生醫療法由醫事司在處理，因為牽涉到滿多的內容，9個子辦法現在已經陸續完成草案，預計在114年第一季進行法規預告作業。"],["廖委員偉翔：114年第一季可以是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：可以。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為之前我看到有媒體報導你的態度好像沒有太支持，希望不要因為這樣子拖延到。"],["邱部長泰源：我非常支持，但是我必須要支持一個福國利民的再生醫療法。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們就是明年的第一季會出來？"],["邱部長泰源：第一季會預告。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，到時候請不要拖延到，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，再跟委員報告。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來是有關霸凌案最新的調查報告，今天的專案報告內容中說霸凌案訪談了96名員工，請問都是訪問在職的嗎？如果有訪問已經離職或者是已經請調外單位的員工，應該不會只有96位吧！"],["邱部長泰源：是不是請呂次長說明？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝廖委員對於這個問題的垂詢，我跟委員報告，我們對這個部分除了現職員工同仁之外，其實也有已經離職的員工。"],["廖委員偉翔：大概有找到幾個已離職的員工？"],["呂次長建德：具體的案例，我是不是請人事處長來跟您做說明？謝謝。"],["李處長玉惠：跟委員報告，我們這邊不方便透露離職員工幾個個案，因為這個很容易被識別化，但是當初第一波網路問卷的時候，離職員工他如果因為……"],["廖委員偉翔：你說有網路問卷，那你們發出幾份？回收幾份？"],["李處長玉惠：網路問卷因為每個人服務的單位不同，只要他是現任跟前任的……"],["廖委員偉翔：我就問你們大概發出了幾份、回收幾份？"],["李處長玉惠：因為有8個案子不盡相同，所以回收率是25%。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你8案只訪談了大概96位，平均1案大概是12位，劉主秘叫下屬去自殺，剛剛我們陳昭姿委員說紀姓員工已經自殺，然後你們不認為這是霸凌，我覺得這個報告是不是對往生者不敬又在家屬的傷口上撒鹽？你們真的覺得這是用心高規格嗎？你們真的有查清楚嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們對於調查要毋縱但是也要毋枉，這是第一點。第二點是我們那位同仁他的就醫是從102年開始，可是劉姓這一位當時任組長是109年，所以整個時序上來說，實際上他並沒有完全的overlap。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我進一步問，叫人家深蹲做伏地挺身，這根本就已經上升到體罰的層次，怎麼可能不是霸凌呢？如果不是旁邊有人把他錄下來，不然你被強迫深蹲跟伏地挺身的時候有辦法錄影蒐證自保嗎？這個報告是不是要重啟重寫？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我做兩點說明。第一個就是有關於伏地挺身，我之前已經說過那是在2022年12月，剛好有位新進同仁進來跟大家自我介紹的時候說他會健身，然後司長就說那你的伏地挺身很強囉，另外還有一位替代役人員，他也說他們平常也會做，大家起鬨……"],["廖委員偉翔：你的意思是說他說他很強，他就叫他做伏地挺身給大家看？"],["呂次長建德：不是，就是PK一下。"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣不算霸凌嗎？如果有一個員工說他深蹲很強，我的助理剛剛也跟我說他滿會深蹲的，如果我現在叫他一邊深蹲一邊放PowerPoint，你覺得這樣算不算霸凌？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：這是不是也是立意良善？因為今天我助理說他BMI比較高。"],["呂次長建德：按照過去法院對於這個部分的判決，其實所謂霸凌就是要構成敵意環境而且是持續性的，那我必須要說這位祝姓司長他這個管理行為我也覺得實在是很不當啦！"],["廖委員偉翔：對，你都已經覺得不當了，那這怎麼可能不是霸凌？"],["呂次長建德：這是管理行為不當，但是學者專家……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以沒有構成？"],["呂次長建德：我們必須尊重學者專家他們的事實調查。"],["廖委員偉翔：如果我今天對我的助理說我覺得你邊深蹲邊放簡報你會瘦，他也不好意思拒絕我，然後他就開始邊深蹲邊放簡報，我這樣會不會算霸凌？"],["呂次長建德：不是，報告委員……"],["廖委員偉翔：次長你剛剛都已經說你也覺得這樣不太妥啦！說了不太妥卻又沒事。"],["呂次長建德：不是，我是說就整個管理行為上面來說，我是覺得應該要……所以也因為這樣，我們就給他記了過。"],["廖委員偉翔：次長，我跟你說，你也知道上次何佩珊部長在這裡，一樣的調查報告弄出來之後，你認為大家會不會覺得很荒謬？就是說深蹲、伏地挺身都不算是霸凌，那我說真的啦，聽到你們這樣的報告，我想很多公務人員都會很緊張吧！甚至我們的助理也很緊張吧！如果今天一時興起，他有一天說他剛去健身回來，非常的壯，我就說那你做伏地挺身給大家看，大家會不會覺得很荒謬？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，所以我說我個人也認為這個祝姓司長，我覺得他這個管理行為真的很有可議之處，但是現在法院對於相關的判決，認為所謂職場霸凌要符合三個要件：第一個就是上對下，在職場裡面發生而且透過言語、非言語；第二個要構成所謂的敵意；第三個……"],["廖委員偉翔：這個很多人在檢舉喔！我想你們這份報告出來真的沒有辦法讓大家很信服，你們是不是應該要再回去深究一下到底是不是有問題啊！這看起來是很荒謬、很離譜的事情喔！","另外，現在不止是這個霸凌案，連臺大醫院也傳出臺大知名不孕症權威──我們就叫代號C教授好了──被6名住院醫生、研究醫生申訴性騷擾，性騷擾案經過性平調查後，確認有性騷擾的事實，請問部長，這個事情你有瞭解嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我有由媒體報導來瞭解。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長認識這個C教授嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為科別不太一樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：那你認不認識？"],["邱部長泰源：我知道這個人。"],["廖委員偉翔：你知道這個人，所以你認識他，知道C教授是誰。"],["邱部長泰源：因為媒體上面也沒寫，所以……"],["廖委員偉翔：你剛剛說你知道這個人，現在又說上面也沒寫，到底知不知道？"],["邱部長泰源：我大概知道這樣的……"],["廖委員偉翔：你知道這個人嗎？你認不認識這個人？"],["邱部長泰源：因為在不同的科而且距離算是……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你認識嘛！你知道嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：全部臺大的人我大概都認識。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你就認識嘛！對不對？你就是認識這位C教授嘛！對不對？你認識這位C教授，那你原本有掌握到這件事嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我不知道。"],["廖委員偉翔：你完全不知道？那你在這件事裡面可以有什麼角色？"],["邱部長泰源：我們按規定依法辦理。"],["廖委員偉翔：依法辦理是怎麼辦理？我問你C教授他搶先申請退休，打算保住退休金，自請離職，讓我想到這其實就跟當初勞動部霸凌輕生案件主角謝宜容前分署長一樣，他想要在召開考績會之前自行請辭，以免被免職或撤職，當時何佩珊部長也是站在質詢台上說毫不知情，我想要請問一下，這個C教授也同樣有想要搶先申請退休的狀況，你剛剛說依法辦理，那依照你們的法，這個規章要怎麼處理才能夠避免？"],["邱部長泰源：這個首先就是雇主可以依照他的行為針對性平三法的規定去處理，這個事情的雇主是臺大醫院，他的職位應該是屬於臺大的……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你不覺得這事情其實很誇張嗎？一個婦產科的權威性騷女醫生，那他過去看過這麼多的女病患，發生這個事情，然後你認識這個人，你覺得怎麼處理更好？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得依法辦理就是最好，我們的性平三法，在立法院上一屆很努力地把它通過了。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長我跟你說，其實這件事情最後面還有一個很嚴重的部分，也是根據媒體報導，這個C教授竟然敢找總統府資政求救並試圖施壓臺大，不止拒絕悔過，還找高層人士來幫腔、來壓案、來吃案，這也不是空穴來風，就在C教授9月自請離職後，他竟然轉往另外一個由總統府資政開設的醫院任職，部長知道這個事嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：由媒體上看到。"],["廖委員偉翔：從媒體上面知道的喔。這個事情走漏風聲之後，該醫院也偷偷的將C教授的照片和資料撤下，看起來就是心虛或是確有其事，也是欲蓋彌彰的行為。這次事件如果不是有政壇大佬的媳婦或是臺大另外的婦產科權威的媳婦、企業家二代或是一些相對有一定政經地位的人都成為受害者，加上臺大校長陳文章能夠秉持他的專業良心，拒絕關說，我想這事也會不了了之。部長，我覺得我們不應該每次都依賴運氣吧！我也想請問你知不知道這位總統府資政是誰？這位要幫他關說的總統府資政是誰？"],["邱部長泰源：因為媒體沒有寫名字，所以我不去猜測。"],["廖委員偉翔：你不去猜測？那你知不知道是誰？媒體寫的是誰？"],["邱部長泰源：對媒體寫的我就說我不去猜測，我是看他的行為對不對這樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：那我們想要知道這個總統府資政是誰、到底有沒有關說施壓的話，這個調查我們應該怎麼做？要由總統府來調查嗎？還是你們可以啟動調查？"],["邱部長泰源：這個可能要從臺灣大學那邊去瞭解整個調查的過程當中……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以會變成是教育部的責任嗎？會變成是教育部要叫臺大去調查清楚嗎？還是衛福部可以有角色？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然非常關心，所有醫療界的醫師、醫界、福利界的所有工作同仁的尊嚴安全當然都是我們關心的，但是有一定的規範。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我想進一步追問一下，他轉到另外一個婦產科的時候，那個婦產科後來可能發現了這個問題，就表示已經不讓這個醫師做內診了，您是醫界的大佬，也非常有經驗，我想請問一下，婦產科醫師不接觸內診的比例或是他不碰內診的比例可以有多高？"],["邱部長泰源：這方面的專家坐在下面。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，專家就坐在下面，那我再問你……"],["陳委員菁徽：可以問國健署啊！我們都要做抹片啊！每個都要做抹片啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：國健署署長可以回答一下嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：如果不做內診大概就不會去做抹片，我想他大概就是……"],["廖委員偉翔：那我再進一步追問，今天他是婦產科醫師，有人可能看到這個人的名字來看醫生，那他不做內診，換另外一個醫生幫他做內診，醫療行為若出了問題誰要負責？"],["邱部長泰源：做檢查的就會有一個檢查的報告嘛！譬如我們做超音波檢查就會有超音波檢查的報告，以及負責的醫師……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，反正這整件事就是很荒謬！如果這件事情就這樣不了了之，未來大家可能都要碰運氣，看誰可以把這件事情爆出來，因此我想請問你，這個該如何在制度上進行改善及預防？"],["邱部長泰源：在制度上就是要落實所有的規定，也希望真的有受到騷擾的一定要勇於……"],["廖委員偉翔：關於這位醫生的究責或法律行為，現在是怎麼處理？是你們可以去處理嗎？針對這個案件，現在衛福部可以做些什麼？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，臺大醫院這個案件很簡單，按照大院剛通過的性騷三法，如果在臺大醫院那邊有任何一方是學生的話，那就是由教育部處理；如果是其他的話，那就是性工法，也就是由勞動部處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以都不關你們衛福部的事？"],["呂次長建德：目前在衛福部這邊，關於性騷三法……"],["張司長秀鴛：如果不屬於性平、不屬於校園、不屬於職場，就是我們主管的性騷擾防治法。"],["廖委員偉翔：現在他的狀況會是你們主管的嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：目前看起來，如果對象是一般病患，那就有可能。"],["廖委員偉翔：就是嘛！對不對？你們現在可以做什麼？"],["張司長秀鴛：他就進入到申訴，在申訴調查屬實之後，應該就會送到臺北市政府社會局進行審議，在審議確定後就會給予行政處罰。另外，如果他的行為觸犯性騷擾防治法第二十五條，也會進入司法調查。"],["廖委員偉翔：我希望你們能深入調查，在這中間可能不只這6位是受害者，這6位受害者爆出來真的是比較有辦法影響到大家的關注度，所以我希望你們針對這位醫師好好的調查。此外，如你所言，如果在受害過程中有一般的病患，而且又碰到有人施壓，我也希望你們針對施壓的那個人好好調查，是否有這樣的狀況？總統府資政到底是誰，請你們給社會一個交代！哪一個總統府資政這麼囂張，自己人做了性騷擾的事，他還想打電話壓案、吃案，太扯了吧！甚至聘用了一個性騷擾的婦產科醫師，還說不讓他看內診，荒謬！"],["邱部長泰源：是，我們一定依法辦理。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，目前醫美合法的管道有麻醉氾濫及管制的問題，而且非法的地下醫美問題也是很嚴重，橋頭地檢署10月偵辦出高雄商辦內隱藏流動的地下醫美，很多藥品及醫材都是大陸輸入的仿冒品，其實也顯示這段期間地下醫美已經在臺灣逐步形成了產業鏈。根據醫界的側面了解，地下醫美市場可能占整個醫美市場近61%，數字令人感到震驚！針對這些無照服務等等的問題，簡單來講，部長，這個部分要如何加強管制，避免很多病患可能使用到這些不合法的東西，導致他們的權益受損？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的關心，如果以這樣的報導來看，確實是令人憂心，也有虧於十幾年來蘇召委及我擔任醫師公會領導者時與醫事司一起致力於醫美方面的管理，讓他們能有一個規則，不然他們也是做得很沒尊嚴，老實講，做的也是很可憐，因為醫師……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，時間有限，我還有很重要的問題要問你，所以你要怎麼做？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有違法，當然就要查緝啊！"],["廖委員偉翔：但是看起來你們的執行很差耶！我再舉一個例子，關於電子煙氾濫，過去我們也很常質詢這件事情，但是看起來衛福部沒有什麼管制的能力耶！網路上隨便一搜就有很多網站販售電子煙，甚至有熱心民眾蒐集了300個違法販售的網站名單，希望你們能夠封禁，關於這個部分，部長知道嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們強烈的要求，尤其是國健署一定要……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，沒有啊！你可能不了解處理的狀況喔！確實有民眾向Google檢舉，但最終的結果是只要在臺灣的Google分站上面搜尋電子煙，下方就會出現警語，但是在警語出現之後就會連結到300家的名單網頁耶！而且這些網站目前都還沒有被停止解析，所以都連得上，這就是因為你們不積極處理，本來是禁止名單，現在變成購買推薦清單耶！"],["邱部長泰源：我請吳署長來回應。"],["吳署長昭軍：非常謝謝委員的關心！為了這個，我們現在有一個跨部會的平台，而且我們也非常謝謝網路平台業者，經過溝通之後，做了一層、二層、三層的屏蔽及移除。"],["廖委員偉翔：但是看起來現在就是沒有啊！而且他們還發展成很多LINE客服都是重複的ID喔！不同的網站卻是同一個LINE客服喔！代表它已經是集團化的經營，你們要怎麼做啊？"],["吳署長昭軍：如果真的是違法，我們當然是依法開罰。"],["廖委員偉翔：你什麼時候會將這300家禁掉？"],["吳署長昭軍：請把資料給我們，我們再……"],["廖委員偉翔：人家都已經向你們檢舉過了，你們都沒有看嗎？"],["吳署長昭軍：我們已經禁了蠻多了，是不是委員所說的300家？"],["廖委員偉翔：我們才上網查過，就是可以進去啊！"],["吳署長昭軍：我們會盡力處理。"],["廖委員偉翔：請你們不要再這麼鬆散了，這個問題很嚴重。謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定會努力，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖委員、謝謝部長。","接下來要處理臨時提案，共計7案，請一併宣讀。","一、","鑒於衛生福利部發生諸多職場霸凌事件，然而衛生福利部前後兩次記者會對外說明之職場霸凌調查結果，不但有未詳盡調查之問題，更有為特定主管層級官員袒護卸責之嫌。基於勞動部勞動力發展署針對謝宜容霸凌部屬案，亦有類似情形發生，勞動部重啟第二次完整調查，從第一份報告之「立意良善」、「無直接霸凌被害人」等離譜內容，變更為被害人確有受謝宜容霸凌之事實，顯見機關是否有盡全力、讓部屬可信任而願意坦言，攸關職場霸凌調查報告之事實認定是否有真實。","爰提案要求，衛生福利部應重啟職場霸凌調查，建立基層部屬願意坦言真話、保障其權益之調查方式與機制，針對遭檢舉涉嫌霸凌之各級主管如衛生福利部主秘劉玉娟、長期照顧司司長祝健芳等人，進行完整、詳細之調查，並公開完整調查報告。","提案人：陳昭姿　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍","二、","鑒於衛生福利部發生諸多職場霸凌事件，然而衛生福利部前後兩次記者會對外說明之職場霸凌調查結果，不但有未詳盡調查之問題，更有為特定主管層級官員袒護卸責之嫌。","爰提案要求，衛生福利部應於本日下午五時前，將目前推諉卸責之調查報告提送至本院衛環委員會外，並應公開至衛生福利部網站供國人檢視（如涉及個人資料如姓名，可遮蔽或代號代稱）。","提案人：陳昭姿　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍","三、","案由：有鑑於國家衛生研究院雖有設立兒童醫學及研究研究中心，然針對兒童醫療與健康的研究、轉譯臨床、照護評估等是有所不足的。兒童健康涉及多個學科，如醫學、生物學、公共衛生、社會學等。在醫院成立一個國家級兒童健康研究中心可以有效整合兒科、婦產科、公共衛生等專業，結合醫療、社會、心理等多元面向，進而形成綜合性的治療解決方案資源，集中力量進行兒童健康研究，並提供醫院有效治療或預防方案。尤其台灣面臨少子化的今天，兒童醫學的主要目的就是保護已出生的孩童，減少孩童的折損，因此兒童醫學最重要的方向應該是確保18歲以下的兒少族群健康或得到良好治療。爰提案要求政府選定具代表性兒童醫院，在其下成立兒童健康研究中心，作為兒童健康提升與醫療研究的平台，促進不同醫療機構和科研單位之間的合作與協同，整合研究與醫療實務，以顯著降低兒童患病的風險。","是否有當？敬請公決。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一","四、","案由：有鑑於一名49歲女性日前到台北市中山區某知名醫美診所進行醫美手術，於舒眠麻醉期間陷入昏迷，送醫不治，2018年時，一連串醫美診所無麻醉醫師在場的麻醉相關意外，間接或直接導致在2018年9月6日修訂「特定醫療技術檢查檢驗醫療儀器施行或使用管理辦法」（後簡稱：特管法），對部分醫美整形手術的麻醉資格及規範做了明確的訂定。依目前除在執行「特管法」第25條有規定的8項手術，包括削骨、中臉部、全臉部拉皮、大量抽脂、腹部整形、鼻整形、義乳植入的乳房整形、全身拉皮手術時的麻醉資格有所規範限制外，其他的光電、醫美、或整形手術並沒有規範。","爰提案要求衛福部比照醫療體系，針對所有醫美涉及麻醉項目，納入規範。","是否有當？請公決案。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一","五、","主旨：","有鑑於衛福部本月12日公布8件霸凌案調查的結果中，竟確定了業務單位主官要求同仁「伏地挺身、深蹲」是鼓勵，沒有強迫；至於所屬職員遭主管開口「你們必須先自殺啊！你等人家來他殺」及「你要先自殺，一定要先表示你的誠意」等內容，甚至也被認定不構成霸凌，並因此盡失國人對衛福部的認同。爰此，考量衛福部把此等荒謬的內部管理標準合理化後，會讓往後的施政及業務背後，極有可能仍會有數不盡遭霸凌的「人血饅頭」存在，如此實在不妥。是以，決議衛福部應限期於一周內完成重啟調查並對外公開，藉此挽救殆盡之公信力。","提案人：陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　蘇清泉","六、","主旨：","有鑑於少子化國安危機加劇惡化，譬如新生兒數在2022年農曆虎年有13萬8,986人，而今年龍年累積到11月的新生兒則是12萬2,360人，預估今年僅會有13.4萬人，形成龍年誕生的新生兒比虎年還少情形。爰此，考量國家財政上受胎兒生產數下降，將對國庫有減少健保支出的連帶影響，因此政府應該考量損益關係，再挹注並補足相當經費加大辦理對孕婦的經濟支持措施。是以，特決議衛福部應限期辦理含產檢、計程車、嬰兒用品和孕婦用品在內之「早期、中期及晚期懷孕券補助政策」研議作業，且當中應有延用至產後一年的規劃，俟後限期於二個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　陳昭姿　　蘇清泉","七、","案由：","有鑑於我國器官捐贈移植等候人數中，乃以腎臟8,000多名病患最多，且等候移植過程更連帶影響其與家屬生活甚深。是以，中華民國多囊腎腎友協會更已正式決議，支持推動主管機關就腎臟活體捐贈資格，應自目前五親等以內血親或配偶，放寬參照肝臟活體捐贈五親等姻親之規範。是以，考量衛福部應積極參採此等意見，並促進患者能速回歸正常人生，爰要求衛福部限期於一個月內啟動研議及修正作業，俟後於三個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　黃健豪　　陳昭姿　　盧縣一"],["主席：請問行政單位對第1案有沒有意見？"],["呂次長建德：主席以及各位委員，大家好。衛福部對於這個臨時提案有關於霸凌的部分有三點說明：第一個，我們必須要說提案文字還是有部分斷章取義的問題，譬如剛剛提到自殺、他殺等等，我們都已經還原當時的脈絡，因此，基本上恐怕還是不宜。第二個，對於判斷到底是否為霸凌，我們都是基於事證及相關的訪談，剛剛我們也說過已經訪談了96位同仁。在這個過程當中，他們其實也都希望能夠匿名，如果一旦公布的話，可能會被行為人按圖索驥，基於保護同仁及對於調查的信任，我們認為恐怕還是不宜。第三個，除非有非常有利的新事實、新證據，否則，在目前已做過非常詳細的調查以及訪談之後所獲得的結論，基本上，我們還是建議要尊重專業調查委員會的調查，但是我們可以在一週內就整個相關的程序在內部進行相關的檢討。以上4點向會上說明，謝謝。"],["主席：陳委員，你要表達嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：有啊！一定要的，謝謝主席。呂次長，早上我沒有對你拍桌子，你竟然說疑似輕生的案子是操作，不樂見刻意的操作！我可是與家屬聯繫過了，基本上，當時家屬是要投訴的，但因為他們覺得不可能有效、不可能！但是現在他們覺得有人要替他們討公道了，因此，基本上先生與3個孩子都希望能夠有機會幫媽媽、幫妻子討公道。呂次，剛剛你提到102年的部分，如果她有所謂憂鬱症的症狀，為什麼她的主管還繼續在職場霸凌她，讓她最後做了一個不可逆的痛苦決定？你這次有沒有去調查她旁邊的同事們？有沒有調查聽到「劉玉娟」就會顫抖的那位同事？","在你們的第一次報告之後，我丟出錄音帶，拼命叫同事去輕生、自殺，你還要幫她找全部的影帶出來。她平常講的話很多，每次都是叫人家去輕生、自殺，你是聽當事人解釋嗎？呂次，關於你剛剛講的102年那個東西，你知道是誰調查的嗎？就是現在的當事人調查的、就是劉玉娟組長與她的心腹賴科長調查後做的報告，現在你用當事人做的報告來告訴我，你這個講法等於是二次傷害啊！我正在邀請，家屬準備帶她朋友來我的辦公室拜訪，說不定我會召開記者會啊！在你第一次報告時，我丟出那個錄音帶，還要經檢舉人同意，你們說錄音帶可能會斷章取義，就聽得很清楚啊！拼命叫她輕生、輕生啊！第二次出來之後……"],["呂次長建德：我可以做一個說明嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：你最好是好好的說明，不要避重就輕，不然我覺得是浪費時間。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，三個重點：第一個，根據我們的了解，這位同仁是102年開始有相關的就診紀錄，如果委員有需要的話，我們可以把它……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們這次的調查有訪談她的家屬嗎？有訪談她當時的同事嗎？你怎麼調查的？"],["呂次長建德：這個部分是不是請……"],["陳委員昭姿：對啊！你就是拿她當時的報告啊！那個報告就是有問題啊！到今天這個霸凌案出現之後，才會有這麼多人向我投訴啊！對於臺北業務組的人而言，劉玉娟的上任是一個噩夢啊！"],["呂次長建德：這個部分是不是請健保署來……"],["陳委員昭姿：你調查了誰？你告訴我，你調查了誰？"],["李處長玉惠：先向委員做個報告，主秘這個案子成立的時候，因為是屬於業務組，所以我們當初問卷的部分是健保署的業務組及我們的社保司，至於業務組這個範圍是不是請健保署先做個說明？謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：那個時候她還沒到健保署，她是去年才到健保署。"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想這是兩件事，所以要將它分開來討論。第一個，你提到的是109年6月可能……"],["陳委員昭姿：輕生了。"],["邱部長泰源：關於她在102年至109年的整個過程，其實大家可以來了解。"],["陳委員昭姿：大家是誰？為什麼她的家屬、同事認為不是這樣？"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，如果……"],["陳委員昭姿：因為她原本有憂鬱症，所以你認為就可以加以霸凌嗎？讓她做出這樣的最後決定嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不是、不是，其實她中間一直在休假，這個部分是一件事情，我們可以來檢討。第二件事情……"],["陳委員昭姿：要不是你們的調查過程那麼不公平、那麼沒有真相，這個是最不得已的案例。"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們是調查當時劉組長的時候，她是在109年3月就任，這位同仁其實前面都在請假，如果要檢討的話，是不是應該要檢討102年到109年當中，她的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["陳委員昭姿：你要好好處理這個案子，當初她擔任組長的時候有將近10個科長降調、轉職、退休。"],["邱部長泰源：從102年到109年，如果家屬真的是覺得有疑慮，我們會好好地針對這個做檢討。至於職場霸凌這個部分，又是後面發展的一些事情，我們另外再來調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：霸凌有各種形式，從前面開始啊！"],["邱部長泰源：因為overlap可能只有2、3個月，但是在這中間……"],["陳委員昭姿：你重啟調查、重啟調查！"],["邱部長泰源：不是，這個與這個的關係……"],["陳委員昭姿：109年是現在的當事人所做的調查報告，而且現在的對象還是同一個人，你把她的報告拿來當作你的報告嗎？你有重新去調查嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：原則上，我們應該是沒有調查102年這個部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：你沒有去調查，我知道你沒有去調查嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：因為沒有調查到102年的部分，所以這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：人家隱忍很久，現在有人願意幫助他們討公道了。"],["邱部長泰源：我認為這是一個新的事證，我們可以來做調查，OK。"],["陳委員昭姿：在第一次報告的時候，我給你新的事證就是錄音帶，但是你們忽視它啊！甚至說那個錄音帶是斷章取義啊！"],["邱部長泰源：因為那個錄音帶與這位同仁沒有關係啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：第二次報告的時候，我只好再丟啊！再丟一個訊息啊！再丟訃聞給你看啊！"],["邱部長泰源：對，你這個部分就是一個新的事證，從102年到109年。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是只有她一個人喔！那個環境有很多人喔！"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，關於這個部分，我們會來調查，從102年到109年到底發生了什麼事。"],["陳委員昭姿：那就是重啟調查嘛！那就是重啟調查嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：但是對於已經調查過的部分，也已經有……"],["陳委員昭姿：剛剛回答說主秘只能限閱，但是她還在主秘的位置上，未來可以看到很多資料耶！她可以秋後算帳耶！"],["邱部長泰源：只要有相關的都不會被看到，剛剛人事處處長已經講得很……"],["陳委員昭姿：重點是她的職位，你要保障她的職位，是嗎？她的職位是一人之下、萬人之上。"],["邱部長泰源：說實在的，我到衛福部之後與誰都沒有關係，我們都是非常公平的對待所有人。"],["陳委員昭姿：那天我叫她上來，你馬上就告訴我，她很認真，但認真與霸凌有什麼關係？"],["邱部長泰源：不是，因為你第一次提的時候，上面寫的是年輕、很有潛力，但是她不年輕了……"],["陳委員昭姿：那是另外一個檢舉案，但是我已經收到主秘的……"],["邱部長泰源：所以那個時候那些字的確不是在形容她，只是這樣子而已啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：那天不是形容她，但是對於主秘有主秘的檢舉者，所以我後來才請她上來。"],["邱部長泰源：對，後來也列入調查了。"],["主席：好啦！不要講了。"],["陳委員昭姿：主席，我就是2案都要，對於你現在的報告，我要看到內容，而且你要重啟調查，不然變成是我在調查，我幫你調查喔！"],["邱部長泰源：當然我們會調查。"],["主席：部長，第1案與第2案就先保留，協調看看要怎麼寫。","處理第3案，行政單位有沒有意見？應該還好吧？"],["劉司長越萍：在委員的提案文字加上「研議」，也就是「爰提案要求政府研議選定具代表性兒童醫院」，因為這個需要與5家兒童醫院做一個討論，所以建議在此新增2個字，以上。"],["主席：好，同意，第3案就這樣修改通過。","第4案。"],["劉司長越萍：第4案也是修改為「研議納入規範」，因為這個地方要做一些相對上的討論，全部納入的時候，我們覺得還是在過去的規定中重新檢討如何落實才是重點，所以建議新增「研議」2個字，也就是「研議納入規範」。"],["主席：「針對所有醫美涉及麻醉項目，研議納入規範。」好，通過。","第5案。","請陳菁徽。"],["陳委員菁徽：關於第5案，基本上，我的意思與第1案、第2案是差不多的。剛剛所有質詢的委員幾乎沒有人對這份報告信服，內容中實際有文字大概是4頁，但關於調查的內容卻不到1頁，而且大家對於最後送出來的處分也是一頭霧水，完全不知道發生什麼事，對於這些中階主管、公務員們為什麼被調職也是一無所知，反而是接獲許多陳情的這些司長們記過，甚至說沒有霸凌的事實、又說是管理不當。因此，我覺得我的第5案就與第1案、第2案一起保留。"],["主席：第5案與第1案、第2案一起保留。","第6案。"],["吳署長昭軍：遵照辦理。"],["主席：第6案OK嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：通過。","第7案。"],["劉司長越萍：第7案的部分，是否容許我們修改為「啟動研議作業」？基本上，因為肝臟有再生能力，放寬之後會產生的倫理疑慮比較小，但一個人只有2顆腎臟，在這樣的狀況下，放寬姻親這個部分，可能會有交易、假結婚等倫理上的考量。因此，研議其實是可以啟動……"],["陳委員菁徽：我們要「啟動研議」，把「修正作業」刪除。"],["劉司長越萍：對，研議作業這邊……"],["陳委員菁徽：當初我之所以會提，實際上也是因為這些病友團體的陳情，他們有這個需求，因為很年輕嘛！二、三十歲卻要洗腎一輩子，如果能夠有腎臟移植的話，他們可以與一般人一樣出國、旅遊，不然他們的人生會有六、七十年都要洗腎。"],["劉司長越萍：在器捐中心這邊其實也有收到相同協會的來文，我們本來就預備要作一些溝通。因為肝臟具有再生能力，這一塊在規範上就能稍微比較放寬，姻親這部分的倫理考量比較少。至於腎臟的部分，如同我剛剛所講的，因為一個人只有2顆腎臟，如果捐贈一顆之後，自己只剩下一顆，在這樣的狀況下，過去血親的限制因為限縮比較小，在倫理上的考量比較小，但今天的提案要從血親開放到姻親的部分，後面可能需要一些配套措施的考量，因此，在這邊……"],["陳委員菁徽：為什麼會有這樣的陳情，也是因為他們有實際上的需求，我覺得可以改成一個月內研議，也可以參考世界各國的標準，所以把「修正作業」刪除。"],["劉司長越萍：謝謝。"],["主席：就是「一個月內啟動研議作業」，把「及修正」拿掉，通過。","現在我們休息20分鐘，順便討論前面3個提案，吃便當啦！"],["呂次長建德：保留的部分，請處長再說明。"],["李處長玉惠：報告委員會，第1、2、5案關於我們的調查報告要不要公布的部分，我以一個議事單位的立場在此稍作說明。第一個，當初這個霸凌案件會不會成立，我們的認定是根據提供的事證，無論是媒體或委員或部長，第一個是事證、第二個是同仁的約談。關於同仁的約談，剛剛委員也看到了，大概平均每個當事人都有接近10人次的約談，而且是非常深度的約談。如果我今天將調查報告公布出來，因為當初同仁接受約談是希望能夠匿名，也因為是匿名，所以他講的案件是非常的深入，包括是在什麼樣的情境下遭受到一些管理的行為，再加上他目前的身心狀況是怎麼樣。即使我再怎麼樣去匿名化，其實按圖索驥都可以找出蛛絲馬跡，現有的同仁還是會受到一些驚恐，因此，我們認為這些深度的調查報告確實是不宜公布，而且我們也怕一旦公布……"],["陳委員昭姿：比照勞動部的規格就可以了，其實勞動部的第一份報告也上去了，明明有那麼多事實，但它的解讀都是不相關，即使是如此，但它還是把完整的資料都送上去，在第二次重啟後，整個判斷就完全不一樣，從不相關變成直接相關。"],["李處長玉惠：我只是要表達同仁在約談過程中確實有這樣的心聲，其實這次的調查報告就有很多是根據同仁的約談，而且現在大部分的同仁都還在部裡面服務，我先做以上說明，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：比照勞動部的規格就可以了。主席，我們要投票、要表決。名字都可以遮起來，比照勞動部的規格，去個資啊！這份報告只有A4的新聞稿紙，根本是業務報告啊！今天根本不是調查結果報告，而是業務報告啊！"],["呂次長建德：報告召委及委員，誠如剛剛處長所言，這個真的是基於同仁信賴我們的調查機制才願意站出來，我們也非常珍視這樣的信任，相信委員也與我們一樣，希望能夠保護同仁，一定都是這樣的心理。整個過程好不容易大家都已經有這樣的信賴，如果因為這樣而中斷了彼此的信任，老實說，我們的96位……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們不給看，卻又說都沒事、都沒事，但我一直質疑、一直提出新事證給你。"],["呂次長建德：剛剛部長也講了，委員一開始提到另外的那個部分……"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼你不在這次就做好呢？把個資蓋掉，你不會不懂吧？"],["呂次長建德：No、No、No，報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：把個資蓋掉，到底這個人做了什麼事、講了什麼話……"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，這不只是把個資蓋掉的問題而已，其中還牽涉到目前任職於哪個單位等等，確實是很容易被人家按圖索驥。"],["陳委員昭姿：反正你要一手遮天、你要一手遮天啊！"],["呂次長建德：我們不希望透過這樣的結果讓同仁也再受到二次傷害。"],["陳委員昭姿：剛剛你說輕生事件是不樂見的操作，這句話就傷害了死者的家屬，你就是二度傷害了他們！"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們這個……"],["陳委員昭姿：他是與我有聯繫的，如果哪天我把他帶到你的面前呢？"],["呂次長建德：如果有新事實、新證據的話……"],["陳委員昭姿：那不是新事實，而是已經發生的事。"],["呂次長建德：就這個部分而言，我們當然可以……但是我必須要強調……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們要求表決、我們要表決。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我真的要強調一點，同仁們願意站出來，老實說，我身為主席，對於同仁也有保護的義務啦！他們都希望匿名後勇敢站出來，我覺得……"],["陳委員昭姿：我有說要公開名字嗎？"],["呂次長建德：剛剛我已經說過了，不僅僅只有……"],["陳委員昭姿：到底有什麼難言之隱？"],["呂次長建德：這沒有什麼……"],["陳委員昭姿：主席，我們要求表決、表決，比照勞動部規格、比照勞動部規格。"],["李處長玉惠：委員，我也是個公務員，必須要先說一下。因為同仁反彈，真的講得很深入，他把怎麼樣處理的行為都……"],["陳委員昭姿：那麼嚴重，結果你們的判決這麼輕，最後你們處理的結果很輕啊！輕輕帶過，都沒事啊！"],["李處長玉惠：沒有，綜整所有必要的……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們越講就越離譜了！那麼深入，難怪有很多不能講的，最後你們的調查結果……"],["呂次長建德：真的要勿縱，但是也要勿枉，我覺得這個前提真的是要把握住。"],["陳委員昭姿：表決、表決。"],["邱部長泰源：因為我擔任過立委，也知道立委都有義務了解內情，而且大家都是德高望重，當然也會知所輕重，這個東西……"],["陳委員昭姿：真相只敢丟給立委，怎麼辦？還是在野黨的立委！"],["邱部長泰源：我們把識別化盡量識別得好一點，再送交給委員，委員再來判斷適不適合，因為大幅公告可能真的會有很多可以按圖索驥的部分，我也相信委員能夠判斷你要做的。"],["王委員育敏：保護被霸凌者。"],["邱部長泰源：對，保護被霸凌者，因此我建議，如果你們看了還不滿意，那麼下次再來要求，我們也都樂意接受。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你的意思是你們先處理一下，再將資料提供給我們看，對嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我建議就送到每一位委員的辦公室。"],["呂次長建德：我們就親持……"],["邱部長泰源：我們會把資料送到委員的辦公室，最好是我們再親自過去報告，如果你們有什麼疑問就可以當場討論。我覺得就在每位委員的辦公室先處理，這樣你們就能看到所有的詳情，但是你們就會判斷一旦公布出去可能會害到受訪者，這樣我們就會更加謹慎。如果第二階段之後，你們還是覺得需要怎麼樣的話，我們再來做下一步都沒關係，好不好？至於102年到109年的那件事情，我們可以再進行調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：涉及人命的事真的要慎重。"],["邱部長泰源：那就好好的立案調查，好不好？"],["陳委員昭姿：家屬在期待。"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，家屬只要有期待……"],["陳委員昭姿：家屬不敢找你們、只敢找我們。"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係！我也是身為醫療人員，一定是關心弱勢或受害者，我的心與你是一樣的，這個部分就另外重啟調查，好不好？"],["陳委員昭姿：重啟調查是針對在臺北業務組的那段期間。"],["邱部長泰源：102年到109年……"],["陳委員昭姿：有多少離職的、降調的，那些也都是。"],["邱部長泰源：澈底調查，都沒關係。如果家屬需要這樣的調查才能心安，我們也會做到。這是102年到109年的過程，紀員在109年離世之前其實一直都在請假，因為她的長官也要她休假、不要上班，現在所講的都是我的了解。"],["陳委員昭姿：這些一面之詞啦！"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，我們會進行調查。另外，我們將調查報告去識別化之後，3天之後就開始到個別委員的辦公室報告，再由你們判斷要不要走下一步，或是覺得這樣的處罰、這樣的處理就已經得當了，我認為這樣做才有辦法保護大家。況且，說實在的，就像我高中三年期間只有一次因為有人到我家買東西而慢了10分鐘出門，結果全勤獎就沒有了，這件事在我的一生中都覺得相當遺憾！同樣的，做了三十幾年的公務員被記申誡，一生為了國家而努力，所以我們也應該要勿縱勿枉，況且記過對於努力的公務員而言，已經是非常大的紀錄、而且是終生的紀錄，即使後面再記功、再怎麼樣，他就是曾經被記過、他就是曾經被記申誡。因此我們要好好思考怎麼樣做最適當，讓基層到主管的每一位同仁都能好好為國做事。以上是我的建議，不知道各位委員能不能接受？"],["陳委員昭姿：我們先按照部長所講的方式進行。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定落實。"],["陳委員昭姿：如果不滿意的話，我們還是要提案。"],["邱部長泰源：可以、可以，一定要說明到大家滿意。"],["呂次長建德：按照部長的指示，由同仁親持去識別化的報告，到有提案的委員辦公室進行報告，這樣好嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：這就是我們認為不足的部分，因為民代的證據永遠比你們多，因為他們不敢、他們害怕秋後算帳。"],["邱部長泰源：如果那些證據超越我們調查的內容就算是新事證，我們再加進調查，好不好？我們這個調查小組還是存在啊！我們會繼續調查，調查到水落石出。說實在的，我想大家都是很願意接受考驗，因為大家都是為國家打拼嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，為了慎重起見，你們自己內部還是再重啟調查一次吧！"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，其實剛剛劉建國委員也對這件事情質詢非常久，好像不只是有提案的委員而已吧！"],["邱部長泰源：因為大家急著要看報告，所以幾天之內先將報告送給大家看，如果覺得還是不滿意，到時候就再走下一步，好不好？不然的話……"],["王委員育敏：不是只有提案的委員而已。"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係！所有衛環的委員都可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為剛剛有太多人問了。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，我想無論是哪一黨的委員應該都很關心，所以我們一定會去說明，直到各位認為新的事證是無法cover的，那我們再來……"],["林委員月琴：部長，我先確認一下，剛剛的決議是要給全部衛環的委員，或是給非衛環的……"],["邱部長泰源：全部衛環的委員。"],["林委員月琴：也要再確定，因為你們剛剛提到調查時很多公務體系的人都如驚弓之鳥，如果要有密件出來的話，也請大家恪遵密件不得外流。因為我以前也擔任過調查委員，當他們願意站出來舉報、說明的時候，同時他們也是承擔了很大的心理壓力，如果你們只是去了個資，但是有些脈絡沒辦法去掉的話，搞不好我們又會製造了另外一場傷害，以上。"],["邱部長泰源：所以我們就親自到委員辦公室，就像我擔任立委員時也有很多這類的狀況，去個資之後我們再去看，說實在的，連copy都不行，我們只能記在腦海裡。這件事就先這樣處理，如果大家認為有需要走第二步，或是整個證據超過我們cover的範圍，我們就會再繼續調查，好不好？"],["主席：他們的調查報告有好幾十頁，我們是要求交給提案委員，不要交給助理，萬一被助理洩漏出去，恐怕會對這些公務人員造成二次傷害。","人事處長建議修改如下：爰為建立基層部屬願意坦言真話、保障其權益之調查方式與機制，針對遭檢舉涉嫌霸凌之各級主管如二位司長等人，請衛福部去識別化後，一週內親持調查報告向提案委員報告說明。三個案子都一樣。此外，也要向全部的衛環委員逐一報告。"],["陳委員瑩：一個禮拜夠嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["主席：你要說好喔！"],["邱部長泰源：應該是在3天之內就開始了嘛！"],["王委員育敏：委員自己要給出時間，我覺得是互相的。"],["主席：一週應該是可以啦！15位喔！"],["李處長玉惠：二週好嗎？"],["主席：好。"],["李處長玉惠：二週是要我們全部報告完畢嗎？"],["主席：對，沒錯。好啦！那就是二週內親持調查報告向衛環委員會的委員報告。"],["陳委員瑩：要本人。"],["主席：要本人，不要給助理，這樣不好。"],["邱部長泰源：拜託委員盡量挪出時間給我們。"],["主席：陳菁徽，可以嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：可以。"],["主席：陳昭姿委員，這樣可以嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：可以。"],["主席：這三個案就照這樣處理，改一下喔！","臨時提案全部處理完畢，我們現在休息15分鐘，先吃飯，之後再接續進行質詢。","休息（12時51分）","繼續開會（13時9分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","我們節省時間，本委員會的要縮短時間啦！請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","邱鎮軍","涂權吉"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、考試院、行\n政院人事行政總處針對「所屬機關有關霸凌事件之調查檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1140602_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}