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?沒有。現在高鐵的運量能不能滿足?不夠嘛。所以要繼續成長嘛。只是成長的比預期時間晚一點到。所以未來高鐵的運量全台灣20年後你覺得高鐵一天的運量需要多少?所長可不可以告訴我們部長?"},{"start":278.584,"end":283.81,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會"},{"start":291.852,"end":304.657,"text":"我們在採改案的時候曾經做過評估,也就是說高鐵在未來的20年後特許期滿的時候應該會達到我印象中是28還是30左右30萬,現在是20萬嘛,30萬是幾年後20年後不是20年後,大概30年後"},{"start":314.841,"end":343.9,"text":"三十年後高鐵會到達30萬。好,到那時候是不是高鐵就會環島了?部長你敢不敢這樣去判斷?部長,最後的時間。我覺得有它的機率啦。有它的可能性。對。所以要預作準備。對。對不對?對。所以現在我們在地方上對於高鐵的延伸它其實不是變成I變成C,它要變成O。但是最後這個O的東部要怎麼連?什麼時候連?其實我們有個醞釀的評估。這個責任你要交給誰?是不是交給所長要去評估?"},{"start":345.342,"end":371.297,"text":"所長,你有沒有被賦予這個責任要去評估?運研所?目前還沒有目前還沒有,你看部長,這就是問題了我很佩服在30年前我們那時候的交通先進有這個遠見在楊局長剛進入工部門的時候他們就豪氣萬千地提出了一個當民國100年高鐵一日的運量有20萬人次雖然過了又過了10年才達成"},{"start":372.478,"end":386.443,"text":"但是你現在評估20年後30年後高鐵的運賜是每天要到達30萬次當那時候我們高鐵的軌道列車的主數絕對不是現在的規模對不對那有沒有開始預作規劃了"},{"start":387.711,"end":414.978,"text":"部長你可不可以給本席現在最後一頁您今天提醒我就覺得有需要做啦就是未來30年台灣的整體的軌道的規劃是長什麼樣的面貌那未來的運量是長什麼樣的面貌我覺得現在應該要開始做規劃是因為有30年前包括楊局長在內他們做了這個規劃今天我們台灣的民眾才能享受這樣的高鐵運輸對不對所以你的任內你必須為30年後20年後的台灣民眾預作設想你同意嗎"},{"start":416.439,"end":437.492,"text":"您是最年輕的部會首長你有這個義務我們不見得能夠那時候都退休不知道什麼時候了你有這個義務當你退休的時候你可以很驕傲的說30年前你當交通部長的時候你已經要求做這個規劃而且逐步在實現了好不好最後一點點小小的拜託因為我每次看交通部的規劃你們都有一個財務評估"},{"start":439.073,"end":455.64,"text":"那個財務評估其實現在來看局長你告訴部長現在高鐵的情況是當時你們規劃的財務評估的實況嗎是嗎有沒有落差有沒有預期高鐵現在有大部分的資金是來自政府有沒有當時規劃不是這樣是的"},{"start":456.599,"end":471.458,"text":"所以所以我要告訴你在30年前我們規劃高鐵之後想像的是BOT想像的是政府的財務能力有限所以我們都用BOT的概念去思考說移到民間來儲值政府儲值很少相對少但是現在呢高鐵告訴我們"},{"start":472.259,"end":495.658,"text":"政府不能夠去輕估我們自己籌辦基礎建設的能力但是我這裡不是叫我們編列預算我覺得您好好的跟金管會的彭主委討論您好好的跟財政部長討論好好的跟國發會的主委討論現在台灣的油資單單是保險的部位國人的超額儲蓄在我們的保單就超過35兆"},{"start":497.159,"end":516.269,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算案關於國家"},{"start":522.933,"end":549.014,"text":"用運用民間的方式用資本金融的槓桿的方式讓民間的資金進來為未來台灣的環島高鐵做努力最後這個部分我把它拿掉您可不可以就財務的部分特別在你們的評估當中請運研所就財務的報告擺脫過去所謂的財務那樣的一個能夠怎麼樣自我負擔嘛你們都是用營運能夠滿足嘛現在高鐵打平了沒"},{"start":550.387,"end":567.866,"text":"打平了沒有?比你們預期的是早還是晚?打平了,有賺錢。早,那是因為政府資金注入嘛。現在政府不用注入那麼多,現在民間油資很多。如果你們現在開始籌備,現在這些資金導入10年20年的長期建設,我告訴你,現在買10年美債的都很後悔啦。"},{"start":568.852,"end":593.106,"text":"為什麼?你買美的美在幫美國做建設啊但是你要買什麼?買臺灣臺灣的公債部長你知道嗎?你可以發行二類公債你知道嗎?是你可以回去評估一下?所長你會告訴我們部長什麼是二類公債?有發行鐵道局是規劃二類公債嗎?我們有發行一類公債一類公債嘛對不對?有發行一類公債賣的怎麼樣?支持我們相關的建設目前一類公債你們發行多少?"},{"start":597.096,"end":624.026,"text":"一、二、五兆還是一、二、五億?你們是一、二、五億啦沒有啦沒有啦應該有一兩百億啦兩百億左右兩百億我覺得至少呢你可以在後面再加個兩個零都沒有問題臺灣目前的能力是負擔得起的兩百億加兩個零是多少?兩兆而已啊才兩兆啊臺灣目前的超額需求在保證的部分就三十四兆您好好思考一下部長可以同意嗎?會不會給一個評估什麼時候可以給本席"},{"start":625.429,"end":651.528,"text":"這個評估可能沒那麼快吧對我沒問題這不能急但是要趁著局長還年輕所長還沒有退休前留給我們下一代好不好這個評估報告的規劃啦就是說我們要怎麼樣做評估報告因為可能要鐵道局跟運營所要一起是的那所以兩邊先來討論一下是不是我們一個月或兩個月後跟委員報告三個月好不好三個月三個月給我包含你們的財務規劃把我們民間包括以內公債不是做完啦是"},{"start":652.278,"end":654.459,"text":"三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度三、審查114年度"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時29分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作伙伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請交通部陳部長、運輸研究所林所長，還有一直在看著我、很想上來的鐵道局楊局長。"],["主席：請陳部長、林所長和楊局長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好！所長好！局長好！"],["陳部長世凱：委員好！"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我的題目：「30年前高鐵運量預測成真，20年後臺灣高鐵需求為何？」來，請教一下部長，我們往下看，來，你知道高鐵幾歲了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：高鐵20歲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有啦！明年18歲。我請教一下，因為你比較年輕，十大建設前你還沒出生嘛！所以我們差了一個世代，我出生的時候後來剛好在弄十大建設。這個圖是一小時的臺灣活動範圍，你的世代是1980年，你出生的時候十大建設已經完成，我們一小時的生活圈已經這麼大了。到了2007年，高鐵通車之後，我們一小時生活圈的距離又擴大了，你覺得我們臺灣有比較進步吧？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，這是我從1992年的高鐵計畫裡拿下來的。好，那請問所長和局長，你們有沒有參與高鐵的規劃？所長有沒有？"],["林所長繼國：當時我已經在運研所，但是我沒有參與那個可行性研究。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那局長有沒有？"],["楊局長正君：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們請局長。局長，今年年初我在質詢陳建仁前院長的時候，我說環島高鐵ICO，我的「I」，你認為是怎樣？從板橋到新左營，一條線，是不是這樣？那現在高鐵有沒有到南港？有嘛！未來會不會到宜蘭？會。那南部呢？是往東會到屏東，所以高鐵的南北端會分別延伸變成一個「C」，是不是這樣？那你認為我的「O」是什麼意思？"],["楊局長正君：環島。"],["鍾委員佳濱：環島，很好，你有參與高鐵的規劃，你參與高鐵規劃時，你應該還很年輕，是幾年前？1992年。"],["楊局長正君：1990年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你那時候剛畢業進入公部門。"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以距離現在幾年？"],["楊局長正君：超過33年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：32年了！那時候你有沒有遇到高鐵會環島？"],["楊局長正君：還沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還沒有，好，往下看。部長，你來看。往下。你知道發生什麼事嗎？最近高鐵尖峰時刻發生高鐵潑水之亂？還是自由座之亂？是哪一個？部長知道這件事情嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是什麼原因造成的？高鐵會怎麼樣？它在研擬要怎麼改善，你覺得要怎麼改善？以後上自由座的人不能帶水瓶嗎？不是，這是什麼原因造成的？局長，告訴一下部長，為什麼會產生這個情況？"],["陳部長世凱：座位不夠。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，就是目前臺灣高鐵的運量已經不能滿足臺灣民眾尖峰時候的需求，對不對？那要怎麼辦？高鐵要怎麼解？部長，你覺得呢？"],["陳部長世凱：目前我們有購車的計畫，希望能夠提升運量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，提升運量。請問局長，你告訴部長，如果高鐵增購12組列車，預估它未來每一天的運量可以到幾萬人次？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，因為現在是34組，如果增購12組，我們的運能應該可以提升三分之一左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那大概是到多少？"],["楊局長正君：目前每日最高的運能已經超過20萬了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：已經超過20萬，今年是民國幾年？113年，超過20萬。那我請教一下局長，這個是81年（1992年）的高鐵計畫，這裡面提到預估到民國100年（2011年）臺灣西部走廊長途客運需求將達每日78萬人次，高鐵將服務其中約四分之一之運量，每日可達19萬次，請你告訴我，在2011年的時候，高鐵有這樣的運量嗎？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，那現在有沒有？"],["楊局長正君：現在有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，接下來就是你的事了，其實高鐵的預測沒錯，只是稍微慢了幾年，不要說17年前，連7年前……17年前高鐵剛開通的時候，甚至有人說這是廢鐵，沒有人要搭，現在有沒有人說高鐵是廢鐵？沒有。現在高鐵的運量能不能滿足？不夠嘛！所以要繼續成長嘛！只是成長比預期的時間晚到一點，所以未來20年後，高鐵一天的運量需要多多少？所長，你可不可以告訴部長？你估計20年後大概多多少？30年前我們預期高鐵的運量一天將超過20萬次，只是晚到了幾年，晚到了10年，未來呢？20年後會怎樣？"],["楊局長正君：跟委員報告，我們在採可案的時候曾經做過評估，也就是說，高鐵在未來的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：20年後？"],["楊局長正君：高鐵在特許期滿的時候，我印象中，一天的運量將會達到28萬或是30萬次左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：30萬？現在是20萬嘛！30萬是幾年後？20年後？"],["楊局長正君：不是20年後，大概30年後。"],["鍾委員佳濱：30年後高鐵一天的運量將會達到30萬次，到那時候，高鐵是不是就可以環島了？部長，你敢不敢這樣去判斷？部長，最後的時間。"],["陳部長世凱：我覺得有它的機率。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有它的可能性。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要預做準備，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以現在地方上對於高鐵的延伸，其實它不是從「I」變成「C」，它是要變成「O」，但是最後這個「O」的東部要怎麼連？什麼時候連？其實我們有一個運量的評估，這個責任你要交給誰？是不是要交給所長去評估？所長，你有沒有被賦予這個責任要去評估？運研所？"],["林所長繼國：跟委員報告，目前還沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前還沒有，部長，你看，這個就是問題，我很佩服30年前我們的交通先進有這個遠見，在楊局長剛進入公部門的時候，他們就豪氣萬千的提出到民國100年高鐵一日的運量有20萬人次，雖然是過了10年才達成，但是你現在評估20年後、30年後，高鐵每天的運量要達到30萬次，那時候高鐵的軌道、列車的組數絕對不是現在的規模，對不對？那你們有沒有開始預做規劃？部長，你可不可以給本席答復？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，你今天提醒後，我覺得有需要做，就是未來30年臺灣整體軌道規劃是長什麼樣的面貌？未來的運量又是長什麼樣的面貌？我覺得現在應該要開始做規劃，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，已經有30年前的，包括楊局長在內，他們做了這個規劃，今天臺灣的民眾才能夠享受這樣的高鐵運輸，對不對？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你任內必須要為30年後、20年後的臺灣民眾預做設想，你同意嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個非常同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是最年輕的部會首長，你有這個義務，因為那個時候我們都退休了，所以你有這個義務，當你退休的時候，你可以很驕傲的說，30年前你當交通部長的時候，你有要求做這個規劃，而且逐步在實現了，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後一點點小小的拜託，因為我每次看交通部的規劃，你們都有一個財務評估，其實那個財務以現在來看，局長，你告訴部長，現在高鐵的情況是當時你們規劃的財務評估實況嗎？是嗎？有沒有落差？"],["楊局長正君：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有預期現在高鐵大部分的資金都是來自於政府，有沒有？"],["楊局長正君：當時規劃不是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以我要告訴你們，30年前我們規劃高鐵的時候，我們想像的是BOT，想像的是政府的財務能力有限，所以我們都用BOT的概念去思考，依賴民間出資，政府出資相對較少，但是現在呢？現在高鐵告訴我們，政府不能夠輕估自己籌辦基礎建設的能力，我在這裡不是叫我們自己要編列預算，我是覺得你要好好的跟金管會彭主委討論；你要好好的跟財政部長討論；你要好好的跟國發會主委討論，現在臺灣的游資，單單是保險的部位，國人的超額儲蓄占我們的保單就超過35兆元，它目前找不到出路，為什麼目前房地產一直在高漲？因為國外投資賺的錢一直回來，但是沒有新的投資標的。三十幾年前、我小的時候，四十幾年前有十大建設，那是政府拿錢出來，我覺得在你任內，你們的財務評估不能夠用政府的預算來思考；不能用公務預算編列的角度來思考，而是要用什麼方式？要運用民間的方式，用資本、金融的槓桿方式，讓民間的資金進來為未來臺灣的環島高鐵做努力。","最後這個部分我把它拿掉，你可不可以就財務的部分，特別是在你們的評估中，請運研所就財務的報告，擺脫過去所謂的財務必須要自我負擔，因為你們都是用營運要能夠滿足，但是現在高鐵打平了沒？打平了沒有？比你們預期的早？還是晚？"],["陳部長世凱：打平了，有賺錢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：早，那是因為政府有注入資金。"],["陳部長世凱：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在政府不用注入那麼多的資金，現在民間游資很多，如果你們現在開始籌備，將這些資金導入10年、20年的長期建設，我告訴你，現在買10年美債的都很後悔，為什麼？你買美債是幫美國做建設，所以你要買臺灣的公債，部長，你知道你可以發行乙類公債嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你可不可以回去評估一下？所長，你可不可以告訴部長什麼是乙類公債？"],["陳部長世凱：鐵道局有發行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是規劃乙類公債嘛？"],["楊局長正君：我們有發行乙類公債。"],["鍾委員佳濱：乙類公債嘛！對不對？"],["楊局長正君：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有發行乙類公債，那賣得怎麼樣？"],["楊局長正君：那是支持我們相關的建設。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前乙類公債你們發行了多少？1.25兆？還是1.25億？你們是1.25億。"],["楊局長正君：沒有，應該有一、二百億，200億左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：200億？"],["楊局長正君：200億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得至少後面再加2個零都沒有問題，臺灣目前的能力是負擔得起的，200億元後面再加2個零是多少？2兆元而已，才2兆元，目前臺灣超額儲蓄的部分，光是保單的部分就有34兆元，你好好思考一下，部長可以同意嗎？可不可以給我一個評估？什麼時候可以給本席？"],["陳部長世凱：這個評估可能沒有那麼快，如果要做30年的話。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我沒有問題，這個不能急，但是要趁局長還年輕，所長還沒有退休前，請留給我們下一代，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：這個評估報告的規劃，就是我們要怎麼做的評估報告，因為這個鐵道局要和運研所一起，所以兩邊要先討論一下，是不是我們1個月後或2個月後再跟委員報告？"],["鍾委員佳濱：3個月，好不好？3個月後給我，包含你們的財務規劃，把民間、包括乙類公債。"],["陳部長世凱：不是做完。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是評估要怎麼做，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：對，評估要怎麼做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我是很能等的，我對自己的壽命有耐心和信心，我會等，在你卸任前，我希望能夠看到20年、30年後臺灣的高鐵規劃是從你任內開始進行的，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝部長！謝謝所長！謝謝局長！"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","接下來請葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，作以下決議：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員黃健豪所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報。三、委員質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復者，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。四、114年國家運輸安全調查委員會、交通部運研所、鐵道局及所屬單位預算，及鐵道發展基金非營業預算等4項預算案，均另擇期進行處理，委員預算提案的時間訂於12月25日禮拜三中午12點截止收件。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":444,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-23-15","speakers":["魯明哲","李昆澤","林國成","林俊憲","陳素月","蔡其昌","游顥","何欣純","徐富癸","廖先翔","陳雪生","邱若華","楊瓊瓔","牛煦庭","許智傑","鍾佳濱","黃健豪"],"page_start":379,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140501_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期交通委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於國家運輸安全調查委員會單位預算；三、審查114年度中央政府總預\n算案關於交通部運輸研究所單位預算；四、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部鐵道局及\n所屬單位預算；五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於交通部主管交\n通作業基金─鐵道發展基金分預算【僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140501_00014"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}