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們叫做外部專業調查委員他們的"},{"start":259.299,"end":271.787,"text":"當初前勞動部部長何佩珊也是這樣講的嘛作為一個部長要有擔當啊這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎那你就勇敢的拍胸脯說我非常滿意嘛"},{"start":274.107,"end":292.82,"text":"我想我那個尊重就是尊重調查委員的一個意見如果說有新的事證或者是我們再繼續來我具體請教啊上班時間要員工深蹲福利挺身這個是OK的嗎來請教部長"},{"start":293.851,"end":305.946,"text":"好 這個我回答好了 這個這件事情是發生在2022年12月的時候因為這個新進的同仁只有一次是不是他也只有一次其他都沒有了"},{"start":307.296,"end":330.587,"text":"只有這一次所以現在建築...等一下等一下等一下我們一樣一樣來嘛這位司長逼員工深蹲福利挺身依照你們目前調查的結果在他擔任司長的期間當中只有一次沒有別次了是不是這樣是嗎調查的結果是這樣子這樣子調查的結果部長你認可嗎"},{"start":335.211,"end":343.573,"text":"為什麼我今天問師長為什麼沒有來自己的事情自己不敢面對喔如果調查這麼嚴謹這麼坦蕩蕩連來國會接受被選的勇氣都沒有還是你們整個衛福部幫他擋在前面只有一次只有一次所以呢 來來來"},{"start":362.369,"end":367.163,"text":"其他在媒體上面建築的我現在直接看後面啦齁"},{"start":371.94,"end":398.083,"text":"有深蹲執行官深蹲聽訊深蹲姿勢不對聽短講聽到雙頭雙腿發抖會被糾正這全部都是不實爆料是嗎如果只有一次的話啦如果你們的調查結果是真的啊我只有一個結論啊現在建築跟外界投訴爆料的這些內容全部虛偽不實這是調查小組的結論嗎"},{"start":402.401,"end":416.829,"text":"非常感謝黃國昌委員對本案的一個關心跟垂詢。客氣的話不用講,直接回答問題就好了啦。就是有關福利挺身就是一次。所以這些爆料全部都不止,福利挺身一次深蹲幾次?深蹲的話是從2022年,從這個2024年大約五月的時候開始。總共有幾次?"},{"start":425.053,"end":428.134,"text":"所以用鼓勵的方式同仁都很高興樂於接受鼓勵是這樣嗎十三位可以理解嗎"},{"start":452.498,"end":471.354,"text":"所以我跟委員報告就是所以現在建出在報章媒體上面的爆料全部都是只有一個人抱怨其他的人都覺得很OK是這樣嗎對所以我們也因為這樣老實說我也覺得就是說這個市長這樣是整個這個管理上面現在把規矩講清楚就好了啦對沒錯把規矩講清楚就好了啦沒錯"},{"start":472.354,"end":481.92,"text":"長官可以要求暑假深蹲福利挺身嗎?可以還是不可以?絕對不可以。絕對不可以嘛。來出來。來來來來來來。我們一樣一樣講清楚啊。那你們在裡面的報告講什麼?講說啊是用鼓勵的方式一起運動。調查小組認定沒有強迫。這個結論部長你滿意嗎?包委員。對不起我請問部長。部長這個結論你滿意嗎?"},{"start":502.944,"end":505.325,"text":"我覺得如果有運動時間應該要尊重尊重每一個同仁他們自有的一個活動方式"},{"start":532.938,"end":556.416,"text":"所以如果有任何的強迫去做特定的或者太超過阿你覺得司長都這樣下令了同仁有沒有覺得被強迫還有深蹲執行官喔部長我跟您交換一個意見我們將心比心今天我們立委監督行政部門幫我們基層的公務員發聲"},{"start":558.919,"end":587.324,"text":"我們將心比心我今天如果在質詢的時候我請你深蹲我請你福利挺身你一定會覺得這個立委一點道理都沒有濫用職權憑什麼要你深蹲憑什麼要你福利挺身我們將心比心我相信這樣子講部長應該可以認同嘛當然當然當然嘛那每一個人都是一樣嘛衛福部有司長官威很大"},{"start":588.92,"end":612.13,"text":"還有深蹲執行官喔結果大家為什麼對你們衛福部的調查報告意見這麼強烈你看嘛第一個調查報告全文不敢提供給立法院說是要保護同仁你們在討論臨時提案的時候我人雖然沒在現場我都透過我們院內的視訊"},{"start":614.349,"end":627.045,"text":"在看你們討論其中的理由是什麼啊怕同人有心理壓力怕暗圖寄索去找到那個同人那我現在就有個問題啊找到那個同人然後呢他會被誰壓迫"},{"start":628.851,"end":652.161,"text":"他會被誰秋後算帳?如果按照你們今天調查報告的結論這些主管職每一個人繼續當主管都沒有問題那代表了什麼?代表你們今天部長幫這些主管背書嘛他們繼續當主管絕對不會有秋後算帳絕對不會繼續霸凌同仁"},{"start":654.178,"end":664.384,"text":"你們調查報告的結論跟整個台灣社會講的就是這件事嘛他們可以繼續當主管我部長背書OK沒有問題啊如果是這樣子的話怎麼會有人擔心還會會被缺貨算帳連你們自己都沒信心了嘛所以才不敢公布調查報告嘛部長我有沒有講錯"},{"start":679.025,"end":704.419,"text":"報告委員我想我們去識別化以後今天的結論我們會去每一個未還的委員那非未還的委員呢如果有要求我們也會去報告好那我現在要求來報告可以嗎沒問題順便講清楚啊沒問題你們的標準怎麼跟勞動部差這麼多啊勞動部的謝宜龍是叫大家跑步啊勞動部的調查報告啊認為不可以這樣做啊沒有擦肢抹粉啊"},{"start":708.491,"end":714.293,"text":"結果你們衛福部的報告標準很特殊喔鼓勵啊鼓勵同仁運動啊部長會不會覺得你們衛福部的標準太寬啊我想這個都是調查委員專業的一個認定真的喔這樣子的認定你覺得很專業喔所以是勞動部那邊的不專業就對了是嗎"},{"start":732.799,"end":736.08,"text":"整個政府機關可以有不一樣的標準喔來 我請教部長你在一個工作環境裡 師長三不五時就要大家練深蹲啊"},{"start":756.203,"end":784.5,"text":"啊你覺得這個工作環境好不好?如果是在必要就是說健康的時間如果是在必要在健康的時間吶吼那有有要帶著大家運動那是一回事那如果強迫做比較比較大家超越體力吼或是不喜歡的市長都開口了下面的人趕不照著做當然這個就是不用擔心考記喔行政失當不用擔心升遷喔不用擔心在長官面前有沒有關愛的眼神喔"},{"start":787.383,"end":800.735,"text":"國務體系的邏輯是這樣嗎?當然委員的考量我都支持我都了解今天有很多委員針對這件事情提出質詢我相信部長感受很強烈"},{"start":801.912,"end":828.057,"text":"大家對於衛福部這種關關相互的態度啊是沒有辦法接受的是沒有辦法接受的我們絕對不會去關關相互是不是有關關相互是不是有關關相互社會上有社會上的評價嘛我們絕對不會去關關我保證絕對不會關關相互做出來的結果做出來的結果就這樣啊啊你現在的說辭跟前勞動部部長有什麼差別"},{"start":829.594,"end":837.841,"text":"當初前勞洛部長不是說我們尊重專業小組尊重外聘委員結果勒?結果勒?我想沒關係我們的調查報告都可以經過大家來考驗可以經過大家考驗就公開嘛那就我們第一個階段先跟各位委員報告不管是未完的或者是希望來了解我這樣講啦"},{"start":857.301,"end":880.93,"text":"我們到時候你們來說明的時候所有接到的投訴所有看到的檢舉我們一樣一樣做事實查核我們一樣一樣做事實查核如果裡面有調查小組該認定沒有認定該考慮沒有考慮該考慮沒有考慮被具體抓出來的話部長承諾重啟調查可不可以做到"},{"start":882.182,"end":906.627,"text":"你如果這麼有信心就不用擔心被檢驗嘛到時候來我辦公室說明的時候我一樣一樣對啊有該處理沒有處理該考慮沒考慮就重啟調查可不可以承諾如果有新的市政或者是不用新的市政嘛既有的市政沒有考慮就應該重啟調查了不是嗎是吧如果有多的補強的政績我們願意繼續來調查OK好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1842,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（13時23分）謝謝主席！主席，不好意思！先會議詢問一下，今天衛福部來的官員，長照司司長有來嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：司長請假。"],["黃委員國昌：司長請假，請問主席有准嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們有報名單。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在是怎麼樣？行政部門報名單，不管主席准不准？只要你有報名單，連主席都不知道，就可以不用來？沒有，我要先確定一下規矩，現在的規矩到底是怎麼樣？我們委員會開會的時候，行政部門只要報名單，不用經過主席同意，想不來就不來，是這樣嗎？社保司的司長有來嗎？"],["呂次長建德：現在是代理司長。"],["黃委員國昌：現在是代理司長，所以現在的代理司長是本來的副司長嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：那本來的司長呢？"],["邱部長泰源：他被調離社保司，所以今天沒來。"],["黃委員國昌：所以他先調離社保司，所以今天也不用來？我很尊重主席，只是有的時候主席你人太好了，你真的人太好了，他們沒有經過你的同意，說不來就不來，我某個程度也是幫主席打抱不平。我希望以後衛福部請假要先問過主席，這個基本的態度應該要建立吧！","來，有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["黃委員國昌：衛福部發生霸凌案讓大家都很痛心，早上質詢的人非常多，我們先回顧一下，當初賴清德總統也好，卓榮泰院長也好，他們跟臺灣社會都做出了莊嚴的承諾。甚至卓榮泰還說什麼？卓榮泰說，他要求各部門機關瞭解內部有沒有霸凌，有的話一個禮拜內完成調查，依法處理，卓榮泰講的話算話嗎？請教部長。"],["邱部長泰源：當然算話。"],["黃委員國昌：當然算話，他要求的時限是多久？"],["邱部長泰源：我們的確在一個禮拜，當時事件發生後我們開始調查，一個禮拜後我們有初步的報告。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在做的時間上，是卓榮泰搞不清楚狀況，連人總的那個處理指引和時限有多少都搞不清楚，當一個行政院院長，做這種政治性的發言，現行法規是一個禮拜嗎？現行法規如果不是一個禮拜，那我把它當成是行政院院長對於行政院所屬機關內部的自我強化要求。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！那現在這個內部的強化自我要求有做到嗎？我公開問這個問題就好了，是不是有做到？大家去對時間，卓榮泰講的話到底算不算話？更可笑的是什麼？你們的結果出來了，但為什麼今天有這麼多委員關心？社會譁然，有官職的、主管的統統不成立；沒有主管職的統統都成立，抓小放大，部長，這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們都是秉公處理，依法辦理，然後調查小組……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係！不用講官話，我就直接請教你，你個人做為衛福部的部長，這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們尊重調查小組，尤其是我們外部專業調查委員的建議。"],["黃委員國昌：當初前勞動部部長何佩珊也是這樣講的，做一個部長要有擔當，這樣的調查結果你滿意嗎？那你就勇敢的拍胸脯說：「我非常滿意嘛！」。"],["邱部長泰源：我尊重調查委員的意見，如果有新的事證，我們再繼續調查。"],["黃委員國昌：我具體請教，上班時間要員工深蹲、伏地挺身，這個是OK的嗎？來，請教部長。"],["邱部長泰源：好，這個我回答好了，這件事情是發生在2022年12月，因為這位新進同仁……"],["黃委員國昌：只有一次是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：只有一次。"],["黃委員國昌：其他都沒有了？只有這一次？所以現在見諸……"],["邱部長泰源：就我們調查，就這麼一次。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，我們一樣一樣來。"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["黃委員國昌：這位司長逼員工深蹲、伏地挺身，依照你們目前調查的結果，在他擔任司長的期間當中，只有一次，沒有別次了，是不是這樣？是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：調查的結果是這樣子。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子的調查結果，部長，你認可嗎？為什麼我今天問司長為什麼沒有來？自己的事情自己不敢面對喔？如果調查這麼嚴謹、這麼坦蕩蕩，連來國會備詢的勇氣都沒有，還是你們整個衛福部幫他擋在前面？只有一次？只有一次？其他在媒體上面見諸報端的，我現在直接看後面，有深蹲值星官、深蹲聽訓、深蹲姿勢不對、聽短講聽到雙腿發抖會被糾正，這個全部都是不實爆料，是嗎？如果只有一次的話，倘若你們的調查結果是真的，我只有一個結論，所謂見諸報端的跟外界投書爆料的這些內容全部虛偽不實，這個是調查小組的結論嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：這個請召集人呂次長來說明。"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝黃國昌委員對本案的關心跟垂詢，我想……"],["黃委員國昌：客氣的話不用講，直接回答問題就好了。"],["呂次長建德：好，伏地挺身就是一次。"],["黃委員國昌：所以這些爆料全部都不實，伏地挺身一次，深蹲幾次？"],["呂次長建德：深蹲的話，大約是從2024年5月的時候開始，然後……"],["黃委員國昌：總共有幾次？"],["呂次長建德：我們平常都會有健康操時間，然後是以鼓勵大家的方法……"],["黃委員國昌：所以用鼓勵的方式，同仁都很高興，樂於接受鼓勵，是這樣嗎？"],["呂次長建德：目前依我們的訪談，總共有14個，裡面有13位可以理解，但是確實有1位新進同仁覺得不習慣……"],["黃委員國昌：13位可以理解，是真的可以理解嗎？"],["呂次長建德：所以我跟委員報告……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在見諸報章媒體上面的爆料，全部都是只有一個人抱怨，其他的人都覺得很OK，是這樣嗎？"],["呂次長建德：老實說，我也覺得這個司長這樣，是整個管理上面嚴重過當。"],["黃委員國昌：現在把規矩講清楚就好了啦！把規矩講清楚就好啦！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：長官可以要求屬下深蹲、伏地挺身嗎？可以還是不可以？"],["呂次長建德：絕對不可以。"],["黃委員國昌：絕對不可以嘛！"],["呂次長建德：沒錯！"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們一樣一樣講清楚，那你們的報告講什麼？講說是用鼓勵的方式一起運動，調查小組認定沒有強迫，這個結論，部長，你滿意嗎？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我請問部長。","部長，這個結論你滿意嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想就是……"],["黃委員國昌：你們的次長，自己當召集人，他要幫自己調查小組的報告，捍衛他的立場，我尊重。雖然我不同意，但我尊重。但我現在請教的是部長，整個衛福部的同仁都在等你一個基本的態度。可以這樣做嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得如果有運動時間，應該要尊重每一個同仁他們自由的活動方式，所以如果有任何強迫去做特定的或太超過……"],["黃委員國昌：那你覺得司長都這樣下令了，同仁有沒有覺得被強迫？還有深蹲值星官喔？部長，我跟您交換一個意見，我們將心比心，今天我們立委監督行政部門，幫我們基層的公務員發聲，我們將心比心，我今天如果在質詢的時候請你深蹲，我請你伏地挺身，你一定會覺得這個立委一點道理都沒有，濫用職權，憑什麼要你深蹲，憑什麼要你伏地挺身。我們將心比心，我相信這樣子講部長應該可以認同。"],["邱部長泰源：當然，當然。"],["黃委員國昌：當然嘛。那每一個人都是一樣嘛。衛福部有司長官威很大，還有深蹲值星官喔。結果大家為什麼對你們衛福部的調查報告意見這麼強烈？你看嘛，第一個，調查報告全文不敢提供給立法院，說是要保護同仁，你們在討論臨時提案的時候，我人雖然沒在現場，我都透過院內的視訊在看你們的討論，其中一個理由是什麼？是怕同仁有心理壓力，怕有人按圖索驥去找到那個同仁，那我現在就有一個問題，找到那個同仁，然後呢？他會被誰壓迫？他會被誰秋後算帳？如果按照你們今天調查報告的結論，這一些主管職，每一個人繼續當主管，都沒有問題，那代表了什麼？代表了今天部長幫這些主管背書，他們繼續當主管，絕對不會有秋後算帳，絕對不會繼續霸凌同仁，你們調查報告的結論跟整個臺灣社會講的就是這一件事嘛，他們可以繼續當主管，部長背書OK，沒有問題。如果是這樣子的話，怎麼會有人擔心會被秋後算帳？連你們自己都沒信心了嘛。所以才不敢公布調查報告嘛。部長，我有沒有講錯？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想我們去識別化以後，今天的結論我們會去向每一個衛環的委員報告。"],["黃委員國昌：那非衛環的委員呢？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有要求，我們願意去報告。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那我現在要求來報告，可以嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：順便講清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：你們的標準怎麼跟勞動部差這麼多？勞動部的謝宜容是叫大家跑步，勞動部的調查報告認為不可以這樣做，沒有擦脂抹粉，結果你們衛福部的報告標準很特殊，說是鼓勵同仁運動。部長，會不會覺得你們衛福部的標準太寬？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個都是調查委員專業的認定。"],["黃委員國昌：真的喔？這樣子的認定，你覺得很專業喔？所以是勞動部那邊的不專業就對了，是嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我想……"],["黃委員國昌：整個政府機關可以有不一樣的標準喔？"],["邱部長泰源：認定的可能不是只有用一般的看法來認定一件事情，不是只有單單一件事情，而是看整體是不是一個不好的環境、不愉快的環境。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我請教部長，你在一個工作環境裡，司長三不五時就要大家練深蹲，你覺得這個工作環境好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：如果是在必要、在健康的……"],["黃委員國昌：如果是在必要、在健康？"],["邱部長泰源：在健康的時間，帶著大家運動，那是一回事，如果強迫做比較超越大家的體力或不喜歡的動作……"],["黃委員國昌：司長都開口了，下面的人敢不照著做？"],["邱部長泰源：當然這個都是……"],["黃委員國昌：不用擔心考績喔？"],["邱部長泰源：是行政失當。"],["黃委員國昌：不用擔心升遷喔？不用擔心在長官面前有沒有關愛的眼神喔？公務體系的邏輯是這樣嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然委員的考量我都支持、我都了解。"],["黃委員國昌：今天有很多委員針對這件事情提出質詢，我相信部長感受很強烈，大家對於衛福部這種官官相護的態度是沒有辦法接受的、是沒有辦法接受的。"],["邱部長泰源：我們絕對不會去官官相護，有多少證據就辦多少。"],["黃委員國昌：是不是有官官相護，社會上有社會上的評價。"],["邱部長泰源：我保證絕對不會官官相護。"],["黃委員國昌：做出來的結果就這樣啊！你現在的說詞跟前勞動部部長有什麼差別？當初前勞動部長不是說尊重專業小組、尊重外聘委員，結果呢？結果呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我想，沒關係，我們的調查報告都可以經過大家來考驗。"],["黃委員國昌：可以經過大家的考驗就公開嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：我們第一個階段先跟各位委員報告，不管是衛環的，或者是希望來瞭解的……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講啦，到時候你們來說明，所有接到的投訴、所有看到的檢舉，我們一樣一樣做事實查核，我們一樣一樣做事實查核，如果裡面有調查小組該認定沒有認定、該考慮沒有考慮，被具體抓出來的話，部長，承諾重啟調查，可不可以做到？你如果這麼有信心，就不用擔心被檢驗，到時候來我辦公室說明，我一樣一樣對，有該處理沒有處理、該考慮沒考慮，就重啟調查，可不可以承諾？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有新的事證，或者是……"],["黃委員國昌：不用新的事證嘛！既有的事證沒有考慮就應該重啟調查了，不是嗎？是吧？"],["邱部長泰源：如果有多的補強的證據，我們願意繼續來調查。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員、謝謝部長。","請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","邱鎮軍","涂權吉"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、考試院、行\n政院人事行政總處針對「所屬機關有關霸凌事件之調查檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1140602_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}