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night時間點在哪裡讓人家有所準備跟依歸可就可不可就不可你會盡快盡快盡快快快快快快到什麼時候"},{"start":67.745,"end":73.23,"text":"好。我想...最重要的考慮點是怎麼樣?我想一定有..."},{"start":82.299,"end":95.107,"text":"或不加加加幾趴沒有這樣子只告訴我們充分的給你們研議那什麼時候可以告訴人家嗎現在是12月底中啊對啊現在已經12月中了嘛對啊12月底好了市長在對不對你要告訴人家嘛這樣大概這樣子沒有答案不行啊"},{"start":102.512,"end":103.632,"text":"多久時間?請告訴我們時間。剛剛部長說要回答12月底。沒關係,請你告訴我們時間。一個快快快一個趕快,你加一個趕。"},{"start":123.519,"end":135.664,"text":"那到底你告訴我們時間沒關係你告訴我時間這個真的是牽一髮動全身喔牽一髮動全身你告訴我時間啦沒關係啦謹慎來衡量啦謹慎來衡量我請問我們什麼時候可以得到答案報告委員我們會謹慎來衡量啊本來是快快快趕快現在謹慎很大沒關係你應該要有來部長你請回答部長"},{"start":151.26,"end":173.981,"text":"我們大家理性討論但是你還要一個時間因為一再講再講完全沒有一個時間點我們如果只要求時間點都要求都聽不到那我們接下來怎麼咨詢沒關係我們那個可以或不可以啊不可以是這個原因對啊對啊你有當過民意代表你就知道背景的處處我想我們在12月底來"},{"start":174.602,"end":175.603,"text":"接下來部長我要跟你討論霸凌的事情事主袁紹"},{"start":195.768,"end":214.484,"text":"那你這次的調查報告呢就好像繼續放火你的八件裡頭只有三件成立而且都是非主管的在處分那麼司長級的都輕輕放過在這樣的一個情況之下本席要請教是不是在重點霸凌這個霸凌文化基層的公務人員要繼續來煎熬"},{"start":223.55,"end":228.775,"text":"我相信你絕對沒有那個心所以本席要求你公佈調查報告因為不斷的資訊在你的報告當中根本是沒有的所以你要重啟調查一一來說明否則我看社會大眾跟國會都沒有辦法接受欸"},{"start":241.738,"end":244.68,"text":"部長您的看法呢?本期贊同!贊同這個方向!你們剛剛有做決議!那本期要了解!"},{"start":265.996,"end":267.199,"text":"那我就到委員報告室報告我們一定要好好的保護需要被保護的人嘛當然當然部長"},{"start":274.879,"end":301.251,"text":"這個錄音帶都已經被揭露了我相信你聽過了你們必須要先自殺你等人家來他殺你要先自殺一定要先表示你的誠意還有一個要自殺還要先表示誠意的這些調查的結果是說什麼不當的比喻傷不勾成霸凌這種話都講得出來部長"},{"start":303.823,"end":303.963,"text":"請做說明。"},{"start":320.458,"end":346.548,"text":"嗯,我想這個用詞是的確非常不適當那但是據我據了解齁那個當時是在講一個案件如果你不好好的自己意思說自己把它弄好你就是等別人來去報告的時候會被別人來修理嘛所以它的用詞是比較極端你認為是極端的用詞但是絕對怎麼不可長官不可能叫人家去自殺他殺這件事情所以你的錄音帶"},{"start":347.948,"end":352.692,"text":"他的影音呈現是如此叫人家自殺還要先表示誠意這是哪門子的說法"},{"start":357.139,"end":378.13,"text":"所以資訊越來越多,部長,資訊越來越多,你應該要把這個調查,好好的調查清楚。本期剛剛在聽到你的答詢當中,你站起來說,在處理臨時提案的時候,你站起來說,該調查的都要調查,要調查的水落石出,這是你說的嘛,對不對?"},{"start":379.951,"end":404.601,"text":"一定要好好查清楚,勿縱勿枉一定要查清楚接下來本席要跟你討論你們的報告內容說這個霸凌申訴人必須要具名以言辭或書面提出行政院的霸凌平台也是這麼說也要具名所以本席要說要具名第一個要麼表示我們的行政能力盲目無能"},{"start":405.595,"end":405.635,"text":"發言委員：楊瓊瓔"},{"start":428.359,"end":436.908,"text":"也要調查嗎?所以不需要具名嗎?是不是?對啊,我們這8案應該大部分都沒有具名請問,你們不需要具名嗎?是不是?不需要具名的我們現在也都納入調查所以也是要具名?不用啊到底要不要具名?匿名的我們也調查那要不要具名?"},{"start":449.625,"end":450.105,"text":"所以本席要告訴你"},{"start":473.497,"end":487.838,"text":"這一次霸凌案之所以能夠在網路上面廣泛的討論就是因為他有匿名性才能夠被廣泛的討論那媒體跟調查單位他可以有線索去查"},{"start":488.659,"end":508.726,"text":"甚至也有人發文啊他也有人發文說明確的說他在公務體系但是如果讓我具名我根本不敢出面舉證或者陳情對不對你也知道嘛你當上民意代表你也知道啊行政院也有說只要有媒體有報導或者信息相關信息我們都是要查要處理的"},{"start":509.286,"end":526.017,"text":"所以我們一個答案現在行政院的霸凌平台是要拒名我也告訴他們你們要改第二個我們現在可以確認你為何不雖然說希望拒名但是不拒名的、匿名的你們也會有舉證的對當然就是說你們這樣子的情況也要調查對不對這個要理清楚喔那你要去思考"},{"start":538.204,"end":565.899,"text":"到現在你婉轉的說如果是沒有匿名的但是有實際這個實際狀況者可尋者那你們都會調查那你要去考慮也要告訴行政院我衛福部都可以這麼做了幹嘛你行政院也要匿名啊行政院長有這樣指示啊行政院長有這樣指示可是他的霸凌平台是要具名那你要告訴他那個霸凌平台的具名要拿掉你跟他很好你告訴他"},{"start":567.881,"end":588.612,"text":"我想這個...對不對?因為講的跟做的文字是一樣啊!有是依法辦理以外我們會強化它的一個...那你要告訴行政院長啊,你跟他很好我知道你要告訴他,我們都可以匿名都可以接受,如果有實證都可以接受你要告訴他,我們行政院做的一套跟你做的又不一樣啊!"},{"start":589.861,"end":597.868,"text":"但是我們現部衛福部是只要有施政的有施政不需要具名就可以查我們確認這一點非常好因為我也可以理解公務單位是怕說爛樹爛茶打擊到無辜這個本性也可以了解但是我們有政府的目的不就是為了可以查明真相嗎 對不對"},{"start":618.126,"end":631.722,"text":"所以在這種情況之下需要被保護的人對那需要被保護的人一定要保護他們對不對這一定要的所以我本期要在這裡跟你說明現在你們認為要不要去修法要不要去修法"},{"start":635.373,"end":641.584,"text":"要不要去修法因為目前霸凌的這個案子還沒有很明確的法所以經過了這麼痛苦的個案經過了這麼痛苦的個案我們應該可以專案去研擬"},{"start":650.519,"end":665.719,"text":"去組一個team去研擬到底這個認定是怎麼樣認定本市也不希望社會大眾一直質疑我們政府本市更不希望我們所有的公務人員有被霸凌而無處沒有申訴的管道"},{"start":666.872,"end":681.105,"text":"對不對?你一直點頭你絕對認同本席的說法。當然當然。 對不對?所以呢本席也希望也就是在這樣的一個情況之下我們是不是應該要應該要去來做修訂法律。請教。剛剛為"},{"start":683.812,"end":699.547,"text":"對,剛剛委員所提的這樣的一個我們經過了經歷了這樣的慘痛的教訓對啊我們總要讓職場更好跟社會更好這個是我們會在權者方面來跟權者的機關你是組一個team嗎好好的去演繹讓大家可以放心來討論嘛也就是修訂那個法律可以讓所有的工作"},{"start":706.294,"end":727.067,"text":"有權者,所以讓大家都能夠,讓工作者大家都能夠放心啊。謝謝,這是我們一起努力的目標。最少他是一個合組作用嘛,對不對?一定要往這個方向改善。好,所以就組一個team好好的去研擬,好不好?好,我們本身也會來衛福部那一面也會來精進。對。也會跟各個牽扯單位大家來互相研議。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1987,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時48分）謝謝英明的召集人，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，延續剛剛的議題，文化健康站的照服員和廚工，其實這個你應該可以很放心地來答應，因為尤其我們在城市中的城市，還是有很多人需要照顧，所以如果說依照這個比例3%，在我們整個通膨來講，這個是完全必須的，所以你剛剛還是沒有辦法很直接地回答，你說會儘快、儘快、儘快，那你總是要說一個deadline的時間點在哪裡，讓人家有所準備跟依歸，可就可，不可就不可，你說儘快、儘快、儘快，快、快、快，快到什麼時候？多久時間？告訴人家嘛，對不對？都要過年了。"],["邱部長泰源：最重要的考慮點是怎麼樣，我想一定有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管考慮怎麼樣，你總是有一個時間點可以應許給人家，現在沒有要求你說加或不加，加的話要加多少百分比，沒有這樣子，只告訴我們要充分地讓你們研議，什麼時候可以告訴人家？"],["邱部長泰源：現在已經是12月中，12月底好了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要告訴人家嘛！不然大家這樣子，沒有答案不行啊。多久時間？"],["呂次長建德：非常感謝委員對這個事情的關心。不過因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請告訴我們時間。"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為現在真的像部長剛剛說的，是牽一髮動全身……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：剛剛部長回答說12月底，那……"],["呂次長建德：這個要做總體的衡平性考量，我們會趕快來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，沒關係，請你告訴我們時間。"],["呂次長建德：我們會趕快來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個快、快、快，你加一個「趕」，那到底……"],["呂次長建德：其實這個裡面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我們時間，沒關係，你告訴我時間。"],["呂次長建德：這個真的是牽一髮動全身。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你告訴我時間嘛。"],["呂次長建德：這個很多要很謹慎來衡量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謹慎來衡量，我請問，我們什麼時候可以得到答案？"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，我們會謹慎來衡量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本來是快、快、快，趕快，現在變成要謹慎。沒關係，你應該要有……"],["呂次長建德：報告委員，因為這個牽涉到很多……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你請回答。部長，我們大家理性討論，但是你還要有一個時間，因為一直在講，完全沒有一個時間點，我們如果只要求時間點都聽不到，那我們接下來要怎麼執行？"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們那個……可以或不可以，不可以就去找原因。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊、對啊。你有當過民意代表，你就知道百姓的需求。"],["邱部長泰源：委員的希望是這樣子，我想我們在12月底來把這個答案先呈現。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。"],["邱部長泰源：後續要努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝部長。12月底我們等著看、等著聽，文化健康站照服員及廚工是不是要加薪，給我們一個答案、方向，要加或者是不加，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝部長。","接下來，部長，我要跟你討論霸凌的事情四處延燒，你這一次的調查報告，就好像繼續放火，8件裡頭只有3件成立，而且都是非主管的在處分，司長級的都輕輕放過，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，是不是在縱容霸凌文化？是不是要讓基層的公務人員繼續煎熬？我相信你絕對沒有那個心，所以本席要求你公布調查報告，因為資訊在你的報告當中根本是沒有的，所以你要重啟調查，一一來說明，否則我看社會大眾跟國會都沒有辦法接受。部長，你的看法呢？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，剛剛已經有決議了，我們會去識別化以後，到各個委員的辦公室去報告，因為這個牽涉到裡面有很多人被訪談……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席贊同這個方向，你們剛剛有作決議，那本席要瞭解……"],["邱部長泰源：衛環的委員及想要瞭解的委員，我們會儘速去報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，本席要瞭解。"],["邱部長泰源：那我就到委員辦公室報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一定要好好地保護需要被保護的人嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：一定、一定。當然、當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，錄音帶都已經被揭露了，我相信你聽過了，內容說：你們必須要先自殺，你等人家來他殺，你要先自殺啊，你一定要先表示你的誠意啊。還有一個說要自殺還要先表示誠意的？這一些調查的結果是說什麼？「不當的比喻，尚不構成霸凌」，這種話都講得出來，部長，沒有辦法想像我們的基層員工、基層人員身心靈多麼煎熬，如果是你的家人或你的小孩碰到這樣的主管，你會認為他不是霸凌嗎？請做說明。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個用詞的確非常不適當，但是據瞭解，當時是在講一個案件，意思是說如果你自己不把它弄好，就是等別人去報告的時候，會被別人修理。所以他的用詞是比較極端，但是絕對……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你認為是極端的用詞？"],["邱部長泰源：長官不可能叫人家去自殺、他殺。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：影音呈現是如此，叫人家自殺，還要先表示誠意，這是哪門子的說法？"],["邱部長泰源：據我瞭解，所謂的自殺，就是自我要把事情弄清楚……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以資訊越來越多，部長，資訊越來越多，你應該要把這個好好地調查清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：有，這個我們非常……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席剛剛聽到你在答詢當中站起來說，在處理臨時提案的時候你站起來說，該調查的都要調查，要調查得水落石出，就是你說的嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然，一定要調查得非常清楚。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以一定要好好查清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：毋枉毋縱。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：毋枉毋縱，一定要查清楚。","接下來，本席要跟你討論，你們的報告內容說，霸凌申訴人必須要具名，以言詞或書面提出，行政院的霸凌平台也是這麼說，也說要具名。所以本席要說，要具名，第一個，表示我們的行政能力顢頇無能，連調查的能力都沒有。第二個，就是要準備秋後算帳，你叫人具名，會引發寒蟬效應。這樣的決策是誰決定的？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，沒有、沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：誰決定的？"],["邱部長泰源：後面有補充，匿名者只要是能夠舉出事證跟他針對哪一個人，我們就是一樣去調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也要調查嘛，所以不需要具名，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：我們這8案應該大部分都沒有具名。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請問，你們不需要具名，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：不需要具名的，我們現在也都納入調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以也是要具名？"],["邱部長泰源：不用啊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到底要不要具名？"],["邱部長泰源：匿名的我們也調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那要不要具名？"],["邱部長泰源：匿名的就是他就沒有具名。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，匿名的也調查……"],["邱部長泰源：當然最好是具名。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最好是具名，所以就是要具名啊！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，不具名……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要具名，誰敢啊？"],["邱部長泰源：不具名我們也調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不具名也調查？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是你們也希望他們具名，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：這是一般的規定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為行政院的霸凌平台也就是要讓人家具名，所以本席要告訴你，這一次霸凌案之所以能夠在網路上面廣泛地討論，就是因為有匿名性，才能夠被廣泛地討論，讓媒體跟調查單位可以有線索去查，甚至也有人發文，明確地說他在公務體系，但是如果讓他具名，他根本不敢出面舉證或陳情，對不對？你也知道嘛，你當過民意代表，你也知道啊！"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，所以行政院也有說，只要有媒體報導或有訊息，有相關訊息我們都是要查、要處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們有一個答案，現在行政院的霸凌平台是要具名，我也告訴他們要改。第二個，我們現在可以確認，衛福部雖然說希望具名，但是不具名的、匿名的，有舉證的，你們……"],["邱部長泰源：對，有舉證的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，當然，就是這樣子的情況，你們也要調查，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個要釐清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：沒錯，就是這樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你要去思考，到現在，你婉轉地說，如果是匿名的，但是有實際狀況可循者，你們都會調查，那你要去考慮，也要告訴行政院，衛福部都可以這麼做了，行政院也要可以匿名啊！"],["邱部長泰源：行政院長有這樣指示。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：行政院長有這樣指示，可是霸凌平台是要具名。"],["邱部長泰源：那霸凌平台……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你要告訴他，那個霸凌平台的具名規定要拿掉，你跟他很好，你告訴他，對不對？因為講的跟做的文字是要啊！"],["邱部長泰源：有些依法辦理以外，我們會強化它的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你要告訴行政院長，你跟他很好，我知道，你要告訴他，衛福部都可以接受匿名，如果有實證，都可以接受，你要告訴他，不要讓行政院做的一套跟你做的又不一樣，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：但是我們衛福部現在是只要有實證，有實證的我們就辦理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有實證的，不需要具名就可以查，我們確認這一點，非常好，因為我也可以理解，公務單位是怕有濫訴、濫查，怕打擊到無辜，這個本席也可以了解。"],["邱部長泰源：因為一查下去，說實在的，將影響公務的運轉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，但是我們有政府的目的，不就是為了可以查明真相嗎？對不對？所以在這樣的情況之下，保護需要被保護的人。"],["邱部長泰源：我們有各種技術來處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，對需要被保護的人，一定要保護，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：一定要、一定要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一定要的。所以本席要在這裡跟你說明，現在你們認為要不要去修法？因為目前霸凌的這個案子還沒有很明確的法，所以經過了這麼痛苦的個案，我們應該可以專案去研擬，組一個team，去研擬到底是怎麼樣認定。本席也不希望社會大眾一直質疑我們政府，本席更不希望我們所有的公務人員有被霸凌而無處申訴，沒有申訴的管道，對不對？你一直點頭，你絕對認同本席的說法，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席也希望，在這樣的情況之下，我們是不是應該要去修訂法律？請教。"],["邱部長泰源：對，剛剛委員所提的建議，我們經歷了這樣慘痛的教訓，我們要思考怎麼樣讓職場跟社會更好，我們跟權責機關……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要組一個team，好好地研擬讓大家可以放心。"],["邱部長泰源：來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：來討論，也就是修訂法律，可以讓所有的……"],["邱部長泰源：修訂法律，就是有權責的機關……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有權責，所以讓工作者大家都能夠放心。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝，這是我們一起努力的目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：至少有一個嚇阻的作用嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：一定要往這個方向來改善。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：認同這個方向吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。所以去組一個team，好好地去研擬，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。我們衛福部本身內部也會來精進，也會跟各個權責單位互相研議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","請盧縣一委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-26-14","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","劉建國","陳菁徽","林淑芬","王正旭","羅廷瑋","黃秀芳","廖偉翔","王育敏","陳瑩","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","邱鎮軍","涂權吉"],"page_start":143,"meetingDate":["2024-12-16"],"gazette_id":"1140602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140602_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、考試院、行\n政院人事行政總處針對「所屬機關有關霸凌事件之調查檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1140602_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}