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art":7.78,"end":20.397,"text":"主席、在場的議事公務人員、省紀長及隨同官員、以旁聽信老、國民今天我們就來就省紀部來進行諮詢那要請主席邀請省紀長麻煩請省紀理長"},{"start":32.472,"end":58.586,"text":"總委員好沈議長好我今天的題目很清楚落實救安基金合規運用而且要強化審計的最終主導功能我想每次我跟您請教我都會跟您確認一下我們審計部的功能因為外界不是很了解所以我請教一下審計的職權是不是有包括合法性審計、績效性審計跟記憶查財務的維持是包含這三大部分的面向功能"},{"start":59.406,"end":75.286,"text":"那麼在於財務審計的部分根據審計法第二條你們包括監督預算的執行並且要審核財務的收支對吧對那你們在績效審計的部分根據你們的審計法第69條如果機關未盡職責者你們要報告他的上級機關甚至要報告監察院對嗎"},{"start":76.721,"end":102.748,"text":"那如果是因為不是因為預算的問題是他你們發現是制度的缺失或者是有設施不良你們要提出改善的建議對嗎對那如果你們發現不是他沒有做而不是他做得不好是他沒有做有些可以增進公益的你們也可以建議機關要去做吧是吧對那另外呢雖然還沒發生但是你們看到有潛在的風險你們要提出預警的意見是不是是的好所以審計部的功能很重要你同意嗎"},{"start":103.328,"end":128.515,"text":"同意好 那我們來問一下這個特題你知道就業安定基金吧就業安定基金的來源跟用途你大概知道嗎加強國民就業好它大概有將近八成是來自於僱主使用國外移工必須繳的費用它其中的包含三個作用第一它辦理有關這個國民就業第二要提供勞工的福祉第三它要處理有關外國人的"},{"start":129.5,"end":156.629,"text":"拼固管理好 那我們來看一下112年度到底用了哪些你覺得哪個部分用了最多錢提振勞工福祉5%外國人的拼固管理11%用諸多的是不是促進本國國民的就業對的好 那你認為在疫情期間我們提供本國人的薪資補貼算不算算那如果像花東大地震災後的災民他的從晚就業這算不算算"},{"start":157.125,"end":172.594,"text":"好那我們看下一頁那如果說以這次勞發署北分署他用來裝修他分署長他的辦公室安裝軌道燈花了140多萬這算不算救安基金的合法用途這有點勉強"},{"start":174.963,"end":175.823,"text":"為什麼這些人員要中央一條片來指派?"},{"start":196.221,"end":215.42,"text":"因為要獨立要獨立要內部集合要集合這個機關首長有沒有內機內控對不對對如果以這個北分署來講把救安基因拿去裝修首長的辦公室誰應該發現是不是主計或會計主任要發現說不能核銷應該那如果他核銷了那這個主計主任是不是失職"},{"start":222.835,"end":237.862,"text":"那另外人事主任．如果機關內部的員工．經常超時加班．加入來加班．那這個人事主任是不是發現有異常．表示酬長的內部的人事派遣猜情有問題．要不要提出報告要如果沒有提出來．人事主任有沒有失職"},{"start":239.708,"end":248.421,"text":"好那最後一個政風如果機關內部這麼多問題政風一定要接到檢舉如果政風接到檢舉沒有來查辦政風有沒有失職"},{"start":250.493,"end":275.295,"text":"應該有好那我們看這些都是中央一條邊指派到各機關像勞分署這是四級機關那他們跟首長的關係他是要監督跟輔佐首長對不對對如果被首長摸摸頭了他們完全失禁內部的紀錄功能誰來監督這些幕僚機關你覺得誰還可以監督他他來監督首長的結果他自己卻同流合污怎麼辦"},{"start":278.442,"end":288.304,"text":"我請教他要報告他的上級他就是被摸頭啦被收買啦他同流合污啊來我們來看一看審計單位的職能他是一個外部監督政府財政"},{"start":289.189,"end":309.72,"text":"一個政府機關你們審計室各界審計室是每年要跟這些行政機關中央地方跟他看到審計報告跟他調一些數據出來做一些審查對不對對你覺得審計部跟你們的審計室有沒有可能去發掘機關內部政風人士跟會計他出了問題有沒有可能發掘"},{"start":312.122,"end":319.708,"text":"如果他在預算的資料上有問題就地抽查以後有可能發生有可能 如果你們發生問題你們要怎麼做我沒退"},{"start":321.602,"end":343.855,"text":"你們怎麼做?會移送,像這個未競組者,會移送他的相關單位。如果是財務上設有不法或重大違私,你們要移送上級機關,或交給監察院或司法機關嗎?對。所以這一件,勞發署的北分署可能有這個問題,你們就會做這樣的行為嗎?對不對?對。那如果是預算執行校能部長,你們突出審核報告,你們機關回覆審核意見之後,"},{"start":344.835,"end":353.714,"text":"他要負政治責任嘛,社長負政治責任嘛,是不是這樣?所以一個是政治責任,一個是法律跟刑法上或受懲戒的責任。是不是有這個,你們有這個能力?"},{"start":355.609,"end":375.38,"text":"審計報告可以敦促機關首長．面對他的政治責任．或者是他要去面對．他因為違法．他的法律責任．跟刑事．或公務員受懲處的責任．這是你們的責任．對沒有錯好那請問你認為．目前審計部．你們年度的審計報告．還有你們手下的審計室．有沒有對中央或地方機關．達到這樣的功能"},{"start":378.108,"end":402.465,"text":"應該我們都有這樣有沒有統計有有那你們目前因為你們的審計報告發掘出這些不管是預算執行效能不彰還是因為機關內部設有不法或重大違私要負起法律責任或刑事責任或移送監察院懲戒的有沒有有那大概怎麼樣數字怎麼樣每年怎麼樣存報監察案這五年一千多件一千多件移送涉及刑事案件2859案是"},{"start":406.367,"end":434.764,"text":"通知各機關查明處分的有2037人次剛剛講的增進財務效能的建議和重要審核意見我們這五年提出了一萬兩千多件那這樣的成績你滿意嗎?這樣的成績你滿意嗎?你作為審計長你作為審計單位你滿意嗎?我們會盡量再來加油那像勞發署、北分署這個情況你們有沒有查出來?有有,那你們做出了什麼樣的一個處置?"},{"start":436.629,"end":458.319,"text":"第一個他的未競逐者的他有那個採購異常的我們就移送檢調那檢察院呢未競逐者的我們依照我們的審計法第69條移送監察院你們送了沒有最近這個報告正在加快啦全國都在看好我接下一個問題好來"},{"start":459.67,"end":461.612,"text":"水資源是影響農業產量的重要關鍵因素。我們看到這幾年來我們的"},{"start":478.133,"end":496.38,"text":"農業部的農田水利建設從127億成長200億到接下來2025年下來會有212億你認為農田水利設施的更新改善跟軍務的復興、跨域整合還有精準化的灌溉措施以擴大灌牌戶你覺得哪一項影響農民哪一項要最優先做"},{"start":498.646,"end":527.122,"text":"這事項都很重要但是龍田水利設施更新改善這是影響最大那我們來看一下現在農業部說怎麼樣他說沒有灌溉用水當然影響到農民耕作所以他們做到了擴大灌溉服務達到五萬六千公頃過去水利會的時代有分灌區內他才處理灌區外的不處理現在灌區外的農民認為有需要他可以跟農田水利組織申請農田會幫他做這些農田水利設施對不對對"},{"start":528.183,"end":541.09,"text":"好那請問一下如果我的農田原來在你們的灌區外現在你說願意幫我服務我就提出申請在你還沒有幫我做之前請問我的農地上沒有辦法好好的發揮農業效應農業部怎麼辦農民怎麼辦"},{"start":545.089,"end":549.691,"text":"如果灌溉設施未完善,主管機關要不要制定補償措施?"},{"start":563.932,"end":581.445,"text":"應該要目前國土計劃法我們的農業發展區有第一類第二類還有其他類但是我被化為農業發展區之後我就限制我做其他的使用但是如果政府的灌開措施設施還沒有到我進來我沒辦法做我的農田發展那你覺得政府有沒有意外補償"},{"start":582.622,"end":603.258,"text":"以限定人民的使用你又沒有提供他足夠的配屬設施政府要不要補償我們有向農業部提出這樣的建議就是跟我說的認同優先改善農業發展預定區的農田水庫設施如果還沒有做我們就要補償你同意嗎我同意好那我們來看一下現在根據土地稅法"},{"start":604.459,"end":631.986,"text":"在非都的地區他編定了農業用地那他是最後前戶但是都市土地若他的公共設施未完俊前如果能做農地使用的不收地價稅是不是這也是一種補償嘛對我是可以工業用地我可以蓋工廠但是你沒有開闢道路我不能做工廠我自己去做農業用地那你不能跟我收什麼工業用地的地價稅嘛對好但是我們農地不收農戶我們等一下看"},{"start":632.566,"end":643.552,"text":"那是不是呢,我們可以根據下一個,你可以要求農業部徵金新增的科目預算．對於過去經濟部．若久旱不雨．他會調度農業用水．經濟部會給農民的休耕補償．對不對?對"},{"start":647.694,"end":662.486,"text":"那如果不是因為天氣久旱不宇．是因為農業部的灌溉設施未達．我農地沒辦法灌溉．沒辦法做好的友善耕作．你認不認為農業部或你們支持．要編列預算科目的用途．來補償農民．你這不支持"},{"start":663.624,"end":688.242,"text":"應該要由農業部好好的來檢討很好,所以你要監督農業部新增預算科目提出相對應的補償所以我們看最後就是說有水才有田農灌溉設施是農權如果我們政府應提供而未提供農業設施的話那我們這個不是施捨政府要提出補償措施能不能督導我們行政部門要具體的趕快提出改善方案"},{"start":689.022,"end":713.844,"text":"可以嗎?好,那我們再往下看齁來,我先問你如果你是老師全班的總平均是95分全班總平均95分喔只有一個是考不到70分的其他都98分今天你跟校長說我要把全班的平均分數從90分往上拉高你是要幫助那些98分以上的考100分還是先把那個70分的拉起來"},{"start":714.793,"end":743.888,"text":"把70分的拉起來空間就有效益嘛對不對對好那我們來往下看同樣的我們來看臺灣的自來水普及我們的卓院長說我們的自來水普及率95%已經都有了剩下的5%沒有所以你認為未來自來水的普及要從這5%去擴大要找哪一個地方找普及率高的還是找普及率低的找普及率低的很好我們來看一下目前我們自來水的屏東只有全國未達八成"},{"start":744.741,"end":760.96,"text":"我們全國的普及率是95%那過去這幾年我們屏東成功的在短短3年內因為前瞻基礎建設的支持我們從63%提升到72%增加了6%、5%好那請問你往下看你認為接下來我們自來水的沿管工程"},{"start":761.6,"end":782.225,"text":"是要去針對已經普及率95%的繼續去找那個還剩下人口少偏遠的管型要較長的還是要找像屏東這種普及率低還有很多人口稠密的地方他的管線施設比較短的地方優先去做哪個成本比較低應該是普及率低的像屏東這樣的地方你完全認同嗎好那我們來往下看"},{"start":782.93,"end":806.366,"text":"各縣市的延緩工程的平均成本就像你說的沒有錯普及率越高的他要繼續施工的成本比較高普及率低的像屏東只要不到16萬就可以做到一戶了所以全國目前有超過51%的經費是用在屏東其他各縣市用的比較少你認為這樣的分配是合理還是不合理你認為屏東用比較多合不合理"},{"start":807.042,"end":830.331,"text":"合理很合理那未來如果我們這樣的相關計劃的經費運用是不是要繼續加碼投資屏東縣這是應該往這方面來那所以我的結論就是說相較於其他縣市站在審計部你們績效審計的立場提高全屏東縣的自來水的普及率對於全國的自來水普及的最惠禮錄是不是最有幫助"},{"start":831.227,"end":838.888,"text":"對的那你們審計部的審計報告未來在看這樣的相關的水利或自來水普及工程你們會提出這樣的建議給行政院嗎"},{"start":840.095,"end":860.651,"text":"向委員報告我們今年在赫佐114年的上半年在做無住來水地區的專案審計專案調查是我們會把委員的這些看法觀點納進考慮這不是我的觀點你完全認同就是審計部的意見了因為這都是合規合理的嘛"},{"start":861.411,"end":880.645,"text":"在那你們的職責你們就應該建議吧不是因為中委員建議嘛應該是你們本於職責這樣建議是不是這樣對你審計部是獨立機關那又不是我中加兵的指令是不是這樣有一個問題啊因為他的湖流水啊湖流水很發達支援服務所以啊接管的人啊"},{"start":881.946,"end":906.889,"text":"好像醫院也不是那麼強你放心,前幾年缺餘啊＼地下水抽不到＼大家都嚇壞了＼大家都要裝置來說那應該就在這個機會啊＼趕快把他補給民眾的醫院不是問題政府的經費是要加強挹注好,來最後的結論就是說除了我剛剛說的救安基金你們的審計你們要發揮最後監督的審計功能監督機關裡面才,就是政風"},{"start":908.049,"end":931.79,"text":"主計跟人事你們要作為這些監督單位最後的最終監督你們要做這兩個審計部對決算審核報告因監督農業部透過預算科目的增列提供尚無灌溉服務地區的補償措施你知不支持我們會來做一個審計的那個檢討好那另外自來水的普及你也支持你剛剛的做法對不對對"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":36,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（14時43分）主席、在場的議事工作人員、審計長及隨同官員以及旁聽席的國民。今天我們就審計部進行諮詢，要請主席邀請審計長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：審計長好。我今天的題目很清楚──落實就安基金合規運用，而且要強化審計的最終督導功能。每次我跟你請教，我都會跟您確認一下審計部的功能，因為外界不是很了解。首先我請教一下，審計的職權是不是包括合法性審計、績效性審計及稽查財務違失──包含這三大部分的面向功能？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。那麼在財務審計部分，根據審計法第二條，你們包括監督預算之執行，並且要審核財務收支，對吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們在績效審計部分，根據審計法第六十九條，如果機關未盡職責者，你們要報告其上級機關，甚至要報告監察院，對嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果不是因為預算的問題，你們發現是制度缺失或設施不良，你們要提出改善建議，對嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果你們發現不是他做得不好，是他沒有做，有些可以增進公益者，你們也可以建議機關要去做，是吧？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，雖然還沒發生，但是你們看到有潛在風險，你們要提出預警意見，是不是？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。所以審計部的功能很重要，你同意嘛？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。那我們來問一下這個課題，你知道就業安定基金吧？就業安定金的來源及用途，你大概知道嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：加強國民就業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，它大概有將近八成是來自雇主使用國外移工必須繳的費用，其中包含3個作用，第一是要辦理有關促進國民就業的事務，第二要提升勞工福祉，第三是要處理有關外國人的聘僱管理。好，我們來看一下112年度到底用了哪些？你覺得哪個部分用了最多錢？提升勞工福祉5%，外國人的聘僱管理11%，用最多的是不是促進本國國民的就業？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那你認為在疫情期間提供本國人的薪資補貼算不算？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那如果像花東大地震災後的災民重返就業，這算不算？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那如果以這次勞發署北分署用來裝修分署長辦公室、安裝軌道燈，花了一百四十多萬，這算不算就安基金的合法用途？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這有點勉強。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這不太應該嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：不合用途。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不合的話，誰要提出來？誰要告訴這個分署不可以？來，我問一下，機關內部是不是有3種幫忙做內部監督的人員，進行內控內稽？包括主計、包括政風、包括人事，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼這些人員要由中央一條鞭來指派？為什麼？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為要獨立。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要獨立、要內部稽核，要稽核這個機關首長有沒有內稽內控，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果以這個北分署來講，把就安基金拿去裝修首長的辦公室，誰應該發現？是不是主計或會計主任要發現說不能核銷？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果他核銷了，那麼這個主計主任是不是失職？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該是失職。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們要把關嘛！失靈了嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外是人事主任，如果機關內部員工經常超時加班、假日來加班，這個人事主任發現有異常，表示首長內部的人事派遣、差勤有問題，要不要提出報告？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果沒有提出來，人事主任有沒有失職？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該失職。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後一個是政風，如果機關內部這麼多問題，政風一定會接到檢舉，如果政風接到檢舉而沒有查辦，政風有沒有失職？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們看，這些都是中央一條鞭指派到各機關，像勞發署的北分署，這是四級機關，他們跟首長的關係是要監督跟輔佐首長，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果被首長摸摸頭了，他們完全失去內部的監督功能，誰來監督這些幕僚機關？你覺得誰還可以監督他？他是來監督首長的，結果自己卻同流合汙，怎麼辦？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他要報告他的上級……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他就是被摸頭了、被收買了，他同流合汙啊！來，我們來看一看，審計單位的職能是外部監督政府財政，你們各地的審計室每年都要看包括中央和地方行政機關的審計報告，跟他們調借數據出來，做一些審查，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得審計部跟你們的審計室有沒有可能去發覺機關內部政風、人事、會計出了問題？有沒有可能發覺？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果它在預算支用上有問題。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般在就地抽查以後有可能發覺。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有可能！那麼如果你們發覺問題，要怎麼做？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會移送。像未盡職責，會移送他的相關單位。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果是財務上涉有不法或重大違失，你們要移送上級機關，或者交給監察院或司法機關嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以這一件勞發署北分署可能有這個問題，你們就會做這樣的行為嘛！對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那如果是預算執行效能不彰，你們提出審核報告，機關回復審核意見之後，首長要負政治責任，是不是這樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以一個是政治責任，一個是法律跟刑法上會受懲戒的責任，你們是不是有這個能力？","審計報告可以敦促機關首長面對他的政治責任，或者是他要去面對自己因為違法的法律責任跟刑事或公務員受懲處的責任，這是不是你們的責任？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯吧？好，那請問你認為，目前審計部你們年度的審計報告，還有你們首要的審計室，對中央或地方機關有沒有達到這樣的功能？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該我們都有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有沒有統計？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前因為你們的審計報告而發覺出這些不管是預算執行效能不彰，還是因為機關內部涉有不法或重大違失，而要負起法律責任或刑事責任、或移送監察院懲戒的，有沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有！"],["鍾委員佳濱：每年的數字大概是怎麼樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：陳報監察院的這5年有一千多件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一千多件？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：移送涉及刑事案件2,859案，通知各機關查明處分的有2,037人次。剛剛講的增進財務效能的建議和重要審核意見，我們這五年提出了一萬兩千多件了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這樣的成績，你滿意嗎？你身為審計長，你身為審計單位，你滿意嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會儘量再來加油！"],["鍾委員佳濱：像勞發署北分署這個情況，你們有沒有查出來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，你們做出了什麼樣的處置？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：第一個，他有未盡職責的、他有採購異常的，我們就會移送檢調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：監察院呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：未盡職責的，依照我們審計法第六十九條移送監察院。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們送了沒有？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：最近這個報告正在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要加快啦，全國都在看。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我接著下一個問題，先問你，先有田才有水──水田、水田，是先有田才有水，還是先有水才有田？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該先有水才有田，因為是農作……"],["鍾委員佳濱：水田、水田，先有水才有田嘛！很好，做過農事、從農村來的。我們看一下，水資源是影響農業產量的重要關鍵因素，我們看到這幾年來，農業部的農田水利建設從127億元，成長到200億，接下來到2025年會有212億，你認為農田水利設施的更新改善，跟圳路復興跨域整合，還有精準化的灌溉措施，以及擴大灌排服務，你覺得哪一項影響農民、哪一項要最優先做？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這四項都很重要，但是農田水利設施更新改善，這是影響最大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！我們來看一下，現在農業部說怎麼樣？它說沒有灌溉用水，當然影響到農民耕作，所以他們做到了擴大灌溉服務達到5萬6,000公頃。過去水利會的時代，有分灌區內才處理，灌區外的不處理，現在灌區外的農民只要認為有需要，他可以跟農田水利署申請，農田水利署會幫他做這些農田水利設施，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。請問一下，如果我的農田原來在你們的灌區外，現在你說願意幫我服務，我就提出申請，在你還沒有幫我做之前，請問我農地上沒有辦法好好的發揮農業效應，農業部怎麼辦、農民怎麼辦？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：一般農民就會休耕。"],["鍾委員佳濱：休耕，好。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：或者是鑿井灌溉。"],["鍾委員佳濱：鑿井灌溉，不管怎麼樣，前者休耕，他沒有收入；鑿井灌溉，他自己要多花錢。我就問這個題目，如果灌溉設施未完善，主管機關要不要制訂補償措施？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前國土計畫法，我們的農業發展區有第一類、第二類，還有其他類，但是我被劃為農業發展區之後，就限制我做其他的使用，但是如果政府的灌溉措施、設施還沒有進來，我沒辦法做我的農田發展，你覺得政府有沒有義務補償？你限定了人民的使用，你又沒有提供他足夠的配屬設施，政府要不要補償？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們有向農業部提出這樣的建議……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是跟我說的一樣，認同優先改善農業發展預定區的農田水路設施，如果還沒有做，我們就要補償，你同意嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們來看一下，現在根據土地稅法，在非都的地區編定了農業用地，它是徵收田賦，但是都市土地如果它的公共設施未完竣前，如果仍做農地使用的，不收地價稅，是不是？這也是一種補償嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是工業用地、我可以蓋工廠，但是你沒有開闢道路，我不能做工廠，我自己去做農業用地，你不能跟我收工業用地的地價稅嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是我們農地不收農賦，那麼是不是我們可以要求農業部新增科目預算？過去經濟部如果久旱不雨，它會調度農業用水，經濟部會給農民休耕補償，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果不是因為天氣久旱不雨，是因為農業部的灌溉設施未達，我農地沒辦法灌溉、沒辦法做好的友善耕作，你認不認為農業部或你們支持要編列預算科目的用途來補償農民？你支不支持？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該由農業部好好來檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！所以你要監督農業部新增預算科目，提出相對應的補償。所以我們看最後，有水才有田，灌溉設施是農權，如果我們政府應提供而未提供農業設施的話，政府要提出補償措施，這個不是施捨，能不能督導我們行政部門要具體的趕快提出改善方案？可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個我們來努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們再往下看，我先問你，如果你是老師，全班的總平均是95分，只有一個是考不到70分的，其他都98分。今天你跟校長說，我還要把全班的平均分數從90分往上拉高，你是要幫助那些98分以上的考100分，還是先把70分的拉起來？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：把70分的拉起來的空間比較大……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最有效益嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來往下看。同樣地，我們來看臺灣的自來水普及，我們卓院長說，我們的自來水普及率是95%，已經都有了，剩下的5%沒有，所以你認為未來自來水的普及要從這5%去擴大，要找哪一個地方？是找普及率高的還是普及率低的？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：找普及率低的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。我們來看一下，目前我們的自來水全國只有屏東未達八成，我們全國的普及率是95%，過去這幾年屏東成功地在短短3年內，因為前瞻基礎建設的支持，我們從63%提升到72%，增加了6%、5%。請問你，你認為接下來自來水的延管工程是要去針對普及率已達95%但人口少且偏遠的、每單位管線所需較長的？還是要找像屏東這種普及率低，且還有很多人口稠密的地方，它每單位管線所需較短的地方優先去做？哪一個成本比較低？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該是普及率低的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：像屏東這樣的地方嘛！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你完全認同嘛！好，我們來往下看。各縣市延管工程的平均成本，就像你說的沒有錯，普及率愈高的，它要繼續施工的成本比較高；普及率低的，像屏東，只要不到16萬就可以做到一戶了，所以全國目前有超過51%的經費是用在屏東，其他各縣市用得比較少，你認不認為這樣的分配是合理的？你認為屏東用比較多合不合理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：合理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很合理！未來如果我們相關計畫的經費運用是不是要繼續加碼投資屏東縣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：是應該往這方面來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後是我的結論，相較於其他縣市，站在審計部你們績效審計的立場，提高全屏東縣自來水的普及率，對於全國自來水普及的最後一哩路是不是最有幫助？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們審計部的審計報告未來在看這樣相關的水利或自來水普及工程，你們會提出這樣的建議給行政院嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：向委員報告，我們今年或者114年的上半年在做無自來水地區的專案審計、專案調查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會把委員的這些看法、觀點納入考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這不是我的觀點，你完全認同，就是審計部的意見啦！因為這些都是合規、合理的嘛！站在你們的職責，你們就應該建議嘛，而不是因為鍾委員建議嘛！你們要本於職責這樣建議，是不是這樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你審計部是獨立機關，又不是我鍾佳濱的指令，是不是這樣？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：但是我們也發現其中有一個問題，因為它的伏流水很發達。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對、資源豐富。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以接管的人好像意願也不是那麼強。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你放心，前幾年缺雨，地下水抽不到，大家都嚇壞了，大家都要裝自來水，你放心。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那就應該趁這個機會，趕快把它……"],["鍾委員佳濱：民眾的意願不是問題，政府的經費是不是要加強挹注？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後是我們的結論了，除了我剛剛說的就安基金，你們審計要發揮最後監督的審計功能，監督機關裡面，就是政風、主計跟人事，你們要作為這些監督單位最後的追蹤監督。你們要做這兩個：審計部對決算審核報告應監督農業部透過預算科目的增列，提供尚無灌溉服務地區的補償措施。你支不支持？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會來做審計的檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，另外在自來水的普及上，你也支持剛剛的做法嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，非常感謝審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝鍾委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的詢問，也謝謝陳審計長的詢答。","我們請登記第2位的廖先翔委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-13","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鍾佳濱","廖先翔","林憶君","吳琪銘","林德福","賴惠員","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","賴士葆"],"page_start":396,"meetingDate":["2024-12-17"],"gazette_id":"1140104","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140104_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第13次會議紀錄","content":"審計長列席報告「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」審核經\n過並備諮詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1140104_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}