{"error":false,"id":["158195"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":158195,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158195","日期":"2024-12-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-2-13","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第2會期第13次會議","屆":11,"會期":2,"會次":13,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"第11屆第2會期第13次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-12-17T15:31:02+08:00","結束時間":"2024-12-17T15:46:30+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:28","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/92fdadfc0332711c7cf807c685d3c918b05e405f736a88db82411c1dea8c2d76f3b915669f50d0dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"15:31:02 - 15:46:30","會議時間":"2024-12-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第2會期第13次會議（事由：一、討論事項：本院國民黨黨團，建請院會作成決議：「勞動部前部長何佩珊及勞動力發展署北分署前分署長謝宜容應受嚴厲之譴責，並移送監察院及檢調單位，如情節重大者將撤職查辦，永不再任公職。」是否有當？請公決案等25案。（12月13日）二、同意權之行使事項：總統咨，依據憲法增修條文第6條第2項規定，提名周弘憲為考試院第十四屆院長，許舒翔為考試院第十四屆副院長，邱文彥、鄧家基、王秀紅、呂秋慧、柯麗玲、黃東益、伊萬•納威Iwan Nawi 7位為考試院第十四屆考試委員，咨請同意案。（12月17日上午）三、審計長列席報告中華民國112年度中央政府總決算審核報告案審核經過並備諮詢。（12月17日下午））","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.050968750000001,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.40909375,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.285968750000002,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.551593750000002,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.829093750000002,"end":26.625968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.16596875,"end":30.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.456593750000003,"end":32.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.852843750000005,"end":35.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.36284375,"end":44.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.39534375,"end":47.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.90534375,"end":54.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.908468750000004,"end":56.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.376593750000005,"end":84.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.04721875,"end":85.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.87409375,"end":89.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.43471875,"end":90.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.98721875000001,"end":97.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.66971875,"end":100.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.19659375,"end":111.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.84471875000001,"end":112.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.58721875,"end":117.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.67909375,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.98596875000001,"end":127.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.53284375,"end":158.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.12471875,"end":158.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.35221875000002,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.63909375,"end":158.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.36471875,"end":169.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.68096875,"end":161.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.53721875000002,"end":163.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.61284375000002,"end":165.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.99596875,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.84659375,"end":180.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.96471875,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.01534375,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.02784375000002,"end":182.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.17971875,"end":182.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.46659375000002,"end":182.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.73659375000003,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.93909375,"end":195.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.43096875,"end":194.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.05534375000002,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.37471875,"end":210.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.88409375,"end":211.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.35221875000002,"end":214.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.37284375000002,"end":221.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.46471875,"end":221.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.95409375000003,"end":224.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.14784375000002,"end":229.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.22284375,"end":248.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.18221875,"end":249.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.48159375,"end":249.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.51096875000002,"end":249.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.56159375000001,"end":249.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.61221875,"end":249.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.62909375,"end":263.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.36721875,"end":251.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.14159375,"end":276.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.69659375000003,"end":279.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.91971875,"end":283.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.14284375,"end":287.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.49221875,"end":308.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.06284375,"end":310.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.68284375,"end":312.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.60659375,"end":336.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.04034375000003,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.61971875,"end":336.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.65346875,"end":336.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.73784375,"end":336.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.97409375,"end":342.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.94784375,"end":343.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.11221875,"end":345.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.32721875000004,"end":346.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.61409375,"end":346.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.36909375000005,"end":348.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.49971875,"end":350.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.74846875000003,"end":350.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.92971875,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.26284375,"end":354.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.57034375,"end":374.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.79096875000005,"end":379.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.39784375000005,"end":384.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.96659375,"end":396.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.77096875,"end":415.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.96596875,"end":417.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.88971875000004,"end":433.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.19721875000005,"end":424.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.36096875000004,"end":426.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.26346875,"end":429.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.45721875000004,"end":448.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.51784375000005,"end":449.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.66096875000005,"end":487.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.97159375,"end":505.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.74221875,"end":498.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.23096875000005,"end":506.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.06159375000004,"end":506.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.16284375000004,"end":518.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.35909375,"end":529.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.17596875,"end":532.3190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.55096875,"end":534.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.76596875,"end":535.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.6940937500001,"end":536.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.74034375,"end":537.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.8034687500001,"end":549.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.7678437500001,"end":552.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.04159375,"end":573.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.03409375,"end":575.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.87346875,"end":582.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.9778437500001,"end":587.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.9897187500001,"end":588.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.8840937500001,"end":589.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.8247187500001,"end":591.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.32659375,"end":592.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.15346875,"end":595.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.85346875,"end":597.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.8615937500001,"end":599.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.32971875,"end":599.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.0890937500001,"end":602.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.7553437500001,"end":603.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.53159375,"end":604.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.7634687500001,"end":605.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.24846875,"end":610.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.90596875,"end":613.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.4834687499999,"end":619.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.6303437500001,"end":621.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.3178437500001,"end":623.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.22034375,"end":625.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.63784375,"end":631.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.35409375,"end":637.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.61909375,"end":645.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.60909375,"end":648.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.72284375,"end":650.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.5747187500001,"end":652.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.19471875,"end":653.2959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.2959687499999,"end":654.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.32971875,"end":654.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.9834687499999,"end":656.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.9409687500001,"end":666.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.2053437500001,"end":677.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.9040937500001,"end":677.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.8828437500001,"end":679.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.02596875,"end":680.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.93721875,"end":681.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.16909375,"end":682.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.86096875,"end":684.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.4597187500001,"end":685.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.4722187500001,"end":689.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.3915937500001,"end":695.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.66909375,"end":696.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.7490937500002,"end":698.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.0947187500001,"end":699.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.5459687500002,"end":702.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.41909375,"end":704.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.93346875,"end":705.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.04721875,"end":707.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.8359687500001,"end":708.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.6415937500001,"end":712.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.4597187500001,"end":713.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.7803437500002,"end":713.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.42159375,"end":713.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.4384687500001,"end":713.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.65784375,"end":713.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.9953437500001,"end":715.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.05409375,"end":718.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.61909375,"end":722.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":722.66909375,"end":723.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.9853437500001,"end":724.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.5547187500001,"end":726.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.88784375,"end":727.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.7822187500001,"end":729.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.54971875,"end":736.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.89471875,"end":741.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.0078437500001,"end":746.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.42909375,"end":748.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.68596875,"end":754.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.47846875,"end":756.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":757.09409375,"end":759.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.6084687500002,"end":760.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.4522187500002,"end":763.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.26596875,"end":764.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.43034375,"end":766.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.3203437500001,"end":770.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.5772187500002,"end":776.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.05721875,"end":780.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.73596875,"end":782.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.2334687500002,"end":787.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.60409375,"end":790.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.9284687500001,"end":794.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.5734687500001,"end":795.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.7547187500002,"end":808.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":800.6315937500001,"end":801.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.6272187500001,"end":802.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.6640937500001,"end":811.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":810.55409375,"end":811.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.66784375,"end":814.7390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.34659375,"end":817.2703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.74284375,"end":822.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.1259687500001,"end":826.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":826.9565937500001,"end":827.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":828.27284375,"end":835.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":835.98471875,"end":847.6453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.8647187500001,"end":850.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":850.9697187500001,"end":854.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":855.5090937500001,"end":857.4328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.8547187500001,"end":858.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":858.68159375,"end":859.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":860.5715937500001,"end":861.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":862.0734687500001,"end":864.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":865.41471875,"end":870.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":870.5278437500001,"end":880.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":881.2434687500001,"end":891.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":891.9253437500001,"end":894.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":894.92909375,"end":901.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.26971875,"end":907.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":908.5134687500001,"end":909.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":910.6228437500001,"end":923.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":920.12346875,"end":920.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":923.2453437500001,"end":924.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":925.0847187500001,"end":925.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":925.6415937500001,"end":926.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":928.66221875,"end":928.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.419,"end":13.85,"text":"謝謝謝謝大會主席韓院長還有陳審計長還有各列席官也是不是請那個陳審計長麻煩再請陳審計長"},{"start":23.804,"end":49.67,"text":"市長你好我想依決算法審計機關在審核各機關或各基金決算應該要注意有無違法施職或不當的情勢那依審計法審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令之不當之處得事前"},{"start":51.352,"end":53.378,"text":"拒簽或事後踢除追繳資"},{"start":57.624,"end":84.093,"text":"中選會前主委陳櫻前違法失職．花了人民血汗錢931萬元的案子省紀部的同仁已經有提供相關的資料給本席辦公室做說明作為最新的進度那我想本案從109年到現在法院早已經判決而且多次駁回在審"},{"start":86.335,"end":109.456,"text":"本席認為說中選會不當支出應該要剔除追繳．並追究陳寅前前主委的責任案子拖延到現在這4年多來省紀部你們是否有信心．可以把陳寅前違法失職．多花人民血汗錢931萬元給追討回來"},{"start":113.112,"end":135.459,"text":"報告委員大概第一個這個案子是我們移送監察院監察院後來彈劾後來彈劾法院判了要陳主委要賠20萬陳主委也賠了我們就開始我們也有請中選會開始追究相關人員的責任"},{"start":136.879,"end":139.741,"text":"沒有再追下去,那你認為這樣可行嗎?"},{"start":159.394,"end":161.337,"text":"總計長931萬這不應該要發的所以我們現在已經出公文請"},{"start":170.083,"end":194.854,"text":"中選會對因為不管因為大部分他都就是剛如同委員所講的純子緯這個案子都是被退回啦這個是都駁回上訴在審但是都是駁回都是說你這個案子是確定的而且應該要追回他的錢嘛對不對對但是他這樣拖拉我認為審計部應該要有作為啊"},{"start":196.815,"end":220.616,"text":"我們已經棄了公室 要中選會開始檢討陳主委中選會檢討沒有用啦 官官相護啦我認為說 這個一定要有作為今天這是一個案例喔因為你今天要是亂花人民的血換錢 不應該花的結果到最後法院也判決"},{"start":222.116,"end":247.942,"text":"就20萬就好了其他都不必了你知道我們損計劃我們現在已經請中選會在查在追了我跟你講啦那個沈記長你中選會去追不如你們跟監察院甚至於啊該怎麼做你們要有作為啦人民都在看啦931萬不是9萬多人民的血汗錢一分一毫一厘都不能給他浪費明慈明濤這是我們的主軸"},{"start":250.083,"end":275.123,"text":"我要繼續追所以說沈記長你要把這個事情我相信你很清楚投追到現在那個俗話說身在公門好修行然而部分公務部門的這些勞役不均的問題導致人員流動高那人力資金公部門首長主管掌握的權力包括烤雞"},{"start":276.784,"end":286.969,"text":"沒有辦法全身自愛反而借端借勢想做皇帝那就更容易產生一些騷擾、霸凌等等這些案件"},{"start":288.524,"end":308.276,"text":"我相信剛剛很多同仁都在提出說勞動部同仁親身的案子本席也感到遺憾跟不捨後續更爆出就業安定基金使用的不當這些問題今年11月底陳審計長有承諾一個月內你要提出報告請問審計長這個承諾到現在為止有沒有變"},{"start":313.357,"end":335.644,"text":"沒有變自我會對外召開記者會正式的做說明我們會把這些報告送到立法院送到立法院好那目前曝光的不當使用項目舉辦客人的演唱會、裝潢、辦公室買咖啡豆等等沈記長還有哪些掌握不當使用項目可以對外說明嗎"},{"start":336.804,"end":354.519,"text":"沿著上我們去查了以後發現不合用途的大概有5000多萬我們會收回會收回齁要繼續追啦我認為齁一定齁不能縱放而且齁"},{"start":355.652,"end":373.932,"text":"全民都在看看你們到底有沒有作為另外對於就業安定基金不當使用勞動部長洪森翰已經承諾將在明年1月中提出強化的機制那本席是希望說省紀部也要提出就業安定基金"},{"start":374.873,"end":393.583,"text":"的使用用途做規範不要再讓就業安定基金變成部會首長的小金庫你的看法呢我們會給勞動部一些意見包括希望能夠公開租用明細還有使用效率這個要公開透明"},{"start":394.784,"end":417.272,"text":"那要是上網勒使用上網勒讓大家眾所周知啊你知不支持支持那你就要求我認為說齁因為過去這段時間啦等於是小金庫那你不能只是勞動部的齁其他只要像這些基金一樣全部都要要求陳記長你的看法勒因為基金有時候齁"},{"start":418.052,"end":442.871,"text":"像你臺大也是一個作業基金那個就對他來講所以我們有一些像勞動部這一個因為是啟資一些特定的產業我們希望他能夠公布他用到哪裡去了沈記長你把這些資料統計以後本席需要一份我認為這個一定要公明這個公開透明讓大家眾所周知"},{"start":443.831,"end":448.915,"text":"口頭報告資料第4頁提到112年度﹐稽查發現財務上違私的案件有35件﹐其中通知各機關查明﹐處分的有29件﹐受處分人員有141人次﹐"},{"start":467.246,"end":487.234,"text":"審計部通知．機關查明．處分的部會．有國防部．經濟部．財政部．等等機關．反而勞動部沒有列在裡面．本期是希望審計部進行一一三年．決算審核報告時．勞動部要列為清查的重點．你的看法呢"},{"start":488.055,"end":503.671,"text":"這一位發生了這麼大的一個影響這位很大的一個的案子啊我們會照委員的意思啊好好地來希望該有的大家該負的責任該怎麼做就怎麼做啦我認為說齁這些齁"},{"start":506.294,"end":531.983,"text":"大家都在看為什麼因為你繳的那些外勞大家所聘請的每個月固定繳多少然後你用這些基金去就是到處亂花而且為所欲為你說大家怎麼看今天你要是沒有做出給老百姓給人民一個交代我相信啦人民會離政府越來越遠"},{"start":533.595,"end":548.781,"text":"你認不認同我同意那接著就是年輕改革議題以陳審計長來討論本席其實我老早就呼籲改革必須要有公平性你認不認同"},{"start":549.884,"end":566.123,"text":"任何的事情都要公平正義對那其實改革站在國民黨團的立場我們也都不反對那勞動部前部長何佩珊說政府撥補勞保戶最終支付的責任就是改革"},{"start":567.384,"end":589.01,"text":"那撥補就是改革那新任勞動部長洪森漢表示說目前沒有砍勞動勞保幾戶的整個規劃這些話聽在一般退休的這些軍公教他的民眾耳朵裡面真的格外的諷刺那個沈記長"},{"start":590.865,"end":609.268,"text":"因為過去我想蔡政府時代你就擔任了那到現在的賴政府高喊改革但卻只有找軍公教來下重手而且污名化軍公教製造階級對立"},{"start":611.565,"end":629.743,"text":"那勞保改革卻遲遲沒有任何的動作那民進黨政府改革只做半套因為勞保最快倒大家都清清楚楚那我請問陳審計長對於勞保年金改革的意見是否能認為勞保撥補金額"},{"start":633.146,"end":649.276,"text":"相較基金財務缺口．人數有限．建議勞動部重啟年改．並研議具體可行的．長期這個財務撥補計畫．那個那個沈機長我們112年度有這樣的意見有這樣的意見希望他整個檢討檢討整個"},{"start":659.444,"end":677.411,"text":"改革工程整個重啟再研究看看因為他有相當多的潛藏負債第二個也看看他的一些特資金的投資過半面的效益的情形我們希望整個盤一盤檢討一下陳記長其實年改當初他是軍公教勞"},{"start":686.67,"end":708.265,"text":"你要是說年改以後你要是站在公平而且讓大家能夠接受的一個平等線上我相信大家心無口無但是啊他只有針對軍公教而且你通過這個法律照理講法律是不受既往你認不認同"},{"start":709.827,"end":725.954,"text":"這一個因為是涉及高度政治不是這個不是高度政治今天不能講高度政治為什麼因為這是有關年改年金改革叫得漫天叫響但是"},{"start":726.974,"end":748.624,"text":"最後只有針對性的而且喔講實在話啦變成人家說我已經在公部門我已經服務三四十年我退休以後我當初為什麼要跟政府這個來做這個工作我要去考試我才能夠升任我就是退休以後我有保障"},{"start":750.318,"end":776.108,"text":"那既然要保障尤其人到一個年紀年紀越大他的支出越多為什麼他可能年長了要請外勞第二個他可能要年老多病要經常上醫院但是我當初有這樣的規劃當我退休的時候你把我從等於是我一個月可以領6萬你給我砍到3萬6就是年年砍年年扣"},{"start":777.108,"end":804.345,"text":"你說這個對這些退休的軍公教公平嗎?那個沈紀長你的想法勒?應該整個剛剛講的包括這些勞保的年金改革包括公務員的改革公務的這些改革應該政府應該再盤整一下盤整一下看看整個到底"},{"start":805.525,"end":821.505,"text":"應該是怎麼樣的一個整體會對整個國家發展會最好對那些退休的軍公教他們混混不平因為我經常在基層跑很多基層退休的軍公教他們認為說"},{"start":823.451,"end":850.301,"text":"為什麼我退休以後請來砍我你當初要是說我要擔任做這項工作的時候你要是說我將來我退休以後年金一定只有60%那我就不選擇這個行業但是我已經做了三四十年我退休以後你再從我退休以後來砍我你要是說我今天立了這個法然後未來你要是要這份工作"},{"start":851.061,"end":861.1,"text":"你就要有心理準備未來你大概就是你退休以後最多領六成年年減他心裡有數"},{"start":862.13,"end":880.513,"text":"我認為這個才叫公平合理但是你當初開始的時候就說我要軍公教勞實際上只有改軍公教勞還連連撥補我不是說特別說去排斥勞沒有這個意思我是說一定要站在一個"},{"start":881.354,"end":909.851,"text":"公平的平等線上你竟然要砍你就是軍公教全部都要做我相信那些軍公教他們沒有話講但是剛好對倒他只有針對性的所以說那些人啦混混不平啦軍公教他認為說當初我要是說真的你要是說給我砍到六成我就不選擇這份工作我還考試過來的勒那個沈機長你有什麼看法"},{"start":911.407,"end":924.763,"text":"就尊重委員的一些這樣的一個看法這個也是政府要去看整個長遠的發展該怎麼樣是對國家最適最利的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（15時31分）謝謝大會主席韓院長，還有陳審計長，以及各列席官員。是不是請陳審計長？"],["主席：麻煩再請陳審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：林委員好。"],["林委員德福：審計長你好。依決算法，審計機關在審核各機關或各基金決算應該要注意有無違法失職或不當之情事；依審計法，審計機關對於各機關違背預算或有關法令之不當支出，得事前拒簽或事後剔除追繳之，是不是這樣子？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員德福：那我請教，中選會前主委陳英鈐違法失職，花了人民血汗錢931萬元的案子，審計部的同仁已經有提供相關資料向本席辦公室說明，作為最新的進度，本案從109年到現在，法院早已經判決，而且多次駁回再審，本席認為中選會不當支出應該要剔除追繳，並追究陳英鈐前主委的責任，案子拖延到現在，這四年多來，審計部你們是否有信心可以把陳英鈐違法失職、多花人民血汗錢的931萬元給追討回來？審計長，你怎麼看？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：報告委員，第一個，這個案子是我們移送監察院，監察院後來彈劾，法院判陳主委要賠20萬，陳主委也賠了，我們也有請中選會開始追究相關人員的責任，但是中選會說這個案子監察院本來也有追究相關人員責任，他們解釋說明了以後，相關人員除了主委以外的人員，監察院沒有再追下去，所以……"],["林委員德福：沒有再追下去，你認為這樣可行嗎？審計長，931萬耶！這不應該要花的耶！這是人民的血汗錢耶！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以我們現在已經出公文請中選會……因為誠如委員所講，陳主委這個案子都是被退回……"],["林委員德福：是駁回……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，都駁回。"],["林委員德福：他是上訴、再審，但都是駁回，表示這個案子是確定的，而且應該要追回他的錢嘛，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員德福：但是他這樣拖拉，我認為審計部應該要有作為。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們已經去了公文要中選會開始檢討陳主委……"],["林委員德福：中選會檢討沒有用啦，官官相護啦！我認為這個一定要有作為，今天這是一個案例，因為你今天是亂花人民的血汗錢，不應該花的，結果最後法院也判決，結果就賠20萬就好了，其他都不必了？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：依照審計法，我們現在已經請中選會在追了。"],["林委員德福：我跟你講啦，審計長，中選會去追，不如你們跟監察院去做，至於該怎麼做，你們要有作為，人民都在看，931萬不是九萬多，人民的血汗錢一分一毫一釐，都不能浪費，民脂民膏……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會看緊，這是我們的職責。"],["林委員德福：我要繼續追。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["林委員德福：審計長，所以你要繼續追這個事情，我相信你也很清楚。俗話說身在公門好修行，然而部分公務部門勞逸不均的問題，導致人員流動高，人力吃緊，公部門首長、主管掌握的權力包括考績，若沒有辦法潔身自愛，反而藉勢藉端想做皇帝，就更容易產生一些騷擾、霸凌等等案件。剛剛很多同仁都在提勞動部同仁輕生的案子，本席也感到遺憾跟不捨，後續更爆出就業安定基金使用不當的這些問題。今年11月底陳審計長有承諾一個月內要提出報告，請問審計長，這個承諾到現在為止有沒有變？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：沒有變。"],["林委員德福：沒有變喔！是否會對外召開記者會，正式的做說明？會不會？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會把這些報告送到立法院。"],["林委員德福：送到立法院，好。目前曝光的不當使用項目，有舉辦個人的演唱會、裝潢、辦公室買咖啡豆等等，審計長還有掌握哪些不當使用項目，可以對外說明嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：原則上我們去查了以後，發現不合用途的，大概有五千多萬，我們會收回。"],["林委員德福：五千多萬會收回，要繼續追啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["林委員德福：我認為一定不能縱放，而且全民都在看，看你們到底有沒有作為。另外，對於就業安定基金的不當使用，勞動部長洪申翰已經承諾將在明年1月中提出強化的機制，本席是希望審計部也要提出就業安定基金使用用途的規範，不要再讓就業安定基金變成部會首長的小金庫，你的看法呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會給勞動部一些意見，包括希望能夠公開使用明細還有使用效率，這個要公開透明。"],["林委員德福：對，還要上網，讓大家眾所周知。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員德福：你支不支持？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：支持。"],["林委員德福：好，那你就要求，因為過去這段時間等於是小金庫，不能只是勞動部的，其他的只要跟這些基金一樣，全部都要要求，審計長，你的看法呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為基金有時候……像臺大也是一個作業基金，那個對它來講……"],["林委員德福：但是我是說……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有一些像勞動部這個，因為是取自一些特定的財源，所以我們希望它能夠公布它用到哪裡去了。"],["林委員德福：審計長，你把這些資料統計以後，本席需要一份，我認為這個一定要公開透明，讓大家眾所周知，以昭公信，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好的。"],["林委員德福：好，我再請教審計長，口頭報告資料第4頁提到，112年度稽察發現財務上違失案件有35件，其中通知各機關查明處分的有29件，受處分人員有141人次，審計部通知機關查明處分的部會有國防部、經濟部、財政部等機關，反而勞動部沒有列在裡面，本席是希望審計部進行113年決算審核報告時，勞動部要列為清查的重點，你的看法呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為發生了這麼大一個影響社會的案子，我們會照委員的意思，好好地來處理，希望該有的、大家該負的責任……"],["林委員德福：對，該怎麼做就怎麼做啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["林委員德福：我認為這些大家都在看，為什麼？因為大家所聘請的這些外勞每個月要固定繳錢，然後你用這些基金到處亂花，而且為所欲為，你說大家怎麼看？今天你要是沒有給老百姓、給人民一個交代，我相信人民會離政府越來越遠，你認不認同？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：同意。"],["林委員德福：同意，好。","接著就年金改革議題與陳審計長討論。本席其實老早就呼籲，改革必須要有公平性，你認不認同？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：任何的事情都要公平、正義。"],["林委員德福：對，其實站在國民黨團的立場，我們也都不反對改革。勞動部前部長何佩珊說政府撥補勞保負最終支付責任就是改革，撥補就是改革。新任勞動部長洪申翰表示，目前沒有砍勞保給付的整個規劃，這些話聽在一般退休的軍公教民眾的耳裡，真的格外的諷刺。審計長，過去蔡政府時代你就擔任審計長，到現在的賴政府高喊改革，但卻只有找軍公教來下重手，而且污名化軍公教，製造階級對立，勞保改革卻遲遲沒有任何的動作，民進黨政府改革只做半套，因為勞保最快倒，大家都清清楚楚。我請問陳審計長，對於勞保年金改革的意見，是否認為勞保撥補金額相較基金財務缺口仍屬有限，建議勞動部重啟年改，並研議具體可行的長期財務撥補計畫？審計長，你有什麼看法？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們112年度有這樣的意見，希望檢討整個改革工程、整個重啟，再研究看看，因為它有相當多的潛藏負債。第二個，也看看它的一些基金投資，各方面效益的情形，我們希望整個盤一盤，檢討一下。"],["林委員德福：審計長，其實年改當初是軍、公、教、勞，年改以後，要是站在公平而且讓大家能夠接受的一個平等線上，我相信大家心服口服，但是它只有針對軍公教，而且你通過這個法律，照理講法律是不溯既往，你認不認同？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個因為是涉及高度政治……"],["林委員德福：不是，這個不是高度政治，今天不能講高度政治，為什麼？因為有關年金改革，叫得漫天價響，但是最後只有針對性的，而且講實在話啦！變成人家說「虎打死才講價」，我已經在公部門服務3、40年，我當初為什麼要來做這個工作？我要去考試才能夠勝任，就是因為退休以後有保障，既然有保障，尤其人到一個年紀，年紀越大支出越多，為什麼？他可能年長了要請外勞；第二個，他可能年老多病，要經常上醫院，我當初有這樣的規劃，但是當我退休的時候，本來我1個月可以領6萬，你給我砍到3萬6，然後年年扣，你說對這些退休的軍公教公平嗎？審計長，你的想法呢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：剛剛講包括勞保的年金改革、包括公務員的改革案改革，政府應該再盤整一下，看看到底怎麼樣對整體國家發展會最好。"],["林委員德福：退休的軍公教憤憤不平，我經常在基層跑，很多基層退休的軍公教認為為什麼在他們退休以後要來砍？要是當初他做這項工作的時候，你告訴他將來退休年金一定只有60%，那他可以不選擇這個行業，但是他已經做了三十、四十年，在退休以後你再來砍。如果說今天立了法，未來要這份工作就要有心理準備，未來退休以後大概最多領六成，而且年年減，那麼他心裡就有數，我認為這個才叫公平合理。當初一開始的時候說要改革軍、公、教、勞，結果實際上只有改軍、公、教，勞還年年撥補，我不是特別去排斥勞，沒有這個意思，我是說一定要站在公平的平等線上，既然要砍，就是軍、公、教、勞全部都要做，這樣我相信那些軍公教會沒有話講，但是剛好相反，它只有針對性的，所以那些人憤憤不平啦！軍公教認為如果當初你真的要砍到六成，他就不選擇這份工作，他還要考試才能進來咧！審計長，你有什麼看法？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我尊重委員這樣的看法，政府也是要去看整個長遠的發展……"],["林委員德福：對啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：該怎麼樣是對國家最適、最利的。"],["林委員德福：對啦，好啦，以上，謝謝。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員詢問，也謝謝審計長的詢答。","接下來登記第6位賴惠員委員之諮詢以書面提出，請審計部以書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員賴惠員書面諮詢：","問題一：有關國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》對審計業務之影響","首先，據審計部公告之112年度財政缺失中，與地方政府財政及事權劃分相關之案件數多達1700多案。監察院李俊邑秘書長亦於近期新聞中，就記者提問目前審查中之國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》可能涉及的疑義時指出：若大量的錢下放，事權卻沒跟著走，未來責任歸屬、分配都會有很多問題。可見以監察院的立場而言，國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》將大幅增加審計人力的負擔：","請問審計長：","1.目前各區審計處之人力配置數量為何？是否有配置約聘僱之審計人員？","2.若以國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》之分配方式進行評估，審計部預期將會增加多少案件量？現有人力是否足以因應這樣的變化？","3.若以現有人力規畫狀況，國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》是否會造成審計部被癱瘓？對審計工作及國家財政會有何種影響？","問題二：有關中央政府及地方政府事權劃分之問題","承上，《財政收支劃分法》除關係到中央及地方財政分配外，由於經費之多寡與政府所需負擔的施政義務相掛勾，故權責分配問題也影響審計部工作之分配與重點。","近年各地方縣市政府透過中央以一般性補助款挹注財源後，財政已多能自主、甚至出現賸餘。然據報載，監察院李俊邑秘書長於報導中指出：地方政府決算時最常遇到的缺失係財政挪用，例如供社福專用之公益彩券補助用於舉辦其他活動。從這樣的現象可以發現，地方政府於預算編列及執行上仍沒有進行完善的規劃及確實依據預算落實。","請問審計長：","1.近3年地方政府因不當挪用預算經費遭審計部列為缺失者，占整體缺失中的多少比例？","2.承前，由於中央及地方政府間針對部分事項之事權劃分仍有爭議，造成特定案件預算究竟應由中央政府編列、抑或由地方政府編列偶有爭議，是否也是造成地方政府預算編列與實際運用有落差，而有挪用缺失的原因？","3.承第一題，從目前地方政府缺失狀況來看，由於國民黨版《財政收支劃分法》僅大量增加地方政府受分配金額，而並未討論如何分配事權，這將將使前述狀況更為嚴重，目前審計部有何因應策略？","問題三：有關台糖土地活化及租用問題疑義","據監察院於今年7月公告之「112年度中央政府總決算附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」中，營業部分有關台灣糖業股份有限公司之決算審核意見，其中多數審查意見與台糖土地活絡及利用問題有關。","請問審計長：","1.以本席選區而論，台糖除持有大量土地外，核有：新營糖廠、善化糖廠、烏樹林糖廠等舊糖廠資源。惟以新營糖廠為例，內部雖有規劃展售、觀光、禮堂等大型使用區域；但多數硬體已年久失修，且並未規劃如何與地方文化、糖廠歷史等資源結合，致民眾對前往糖廠觀光意願偏低；又以新營糖廠為例，新營糖廠內部有大量日治時期宿舍等歷史建物可作為觀光及文化保存運用，惟多數亦面臨多年為修繕而荒廢問題。請問審計部針對台糖土地活化利用欠佳目前是否有提出相關糾正？目前改善進度如何？","2.又針對台糖土地租用問題，據本席項台糖所資後發現，台糖107年至112年7月間存續之50件地上權設定案件中，多數地上權設定案件以5年、10年為主，僅2件取得20年地上權設定資格。而2件之中其一為佛光山文教基金會，另一為營利之新奇美公司。查台糖歷來地上權設定之狀況，營利事業之地上權設定多以短期設定為主，僅此案獲得20年地上權登記資格，監察院對此是否有查核相關程序是否符合法規及台糖歷來慣習？"],["主席：接下來請登記第7位洪孟楷委員詢問。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":432,"meet_id":"院會-11-2-13","speakers":["韓國瑜","江啟臣","鍾佳濱","廖先翔","林憶君","吳琪銘","林德福","賴惠員","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","賴士葆"],"page_start":396,"meetingDate":["2024-12-17"],"gazette_id":"1140104","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140104_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期第13次會議紀錄","content":"審計長列席報告「中華民國112年度中央政府總決算暨附屬單位決算及綜計表審核報告」審核經\n過並備諮詢─詢答完畢─","agenda_id":"1140104_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}