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搶通所以在整個初步的這個鐵公路部分都通了但是後續還有中長期的一些復建的一個比較長期的計畫這個我們等一下會報告也都積極的在進行"},{"start":2045.97,"end":2059.768,"text":"那我跟各位報告就是說這一次的確讓我們發覺在台九比如說4月3號的夏青水橋這是在舒花庵裡面的河嶺到崇德這一段然後在4月10號"},{"start":2061.45,"end":2085.908,"text":"從台九線的邊坡掉下來砸到在我們的軌道讓我們的普悠瑪出軌這也是在蘇花安的和平到和中段所以我們認為在蘇花安這個建設計畫是交通部現在要推動最急的一件事情那我們希望在民國121年完工那整個蘇花公路就是變成比較安全的一個公路"},{"start":2086.943,"end":2115.285,"text":"那有關國道六號東延花蓮的建設特別條例我們目前也按照行政院的中長期個案計畫的這個要點在進行現在正進行這個路廊的踏勘跟地址的踏勘我們希望說在這些過去在穿越中央山脈所碰到的這些環境的影響還有包括"},{"start":2117.487,"end":2139.322,"text":"這個斷層還有包括我們的一些地熱、原爆等等的課題必須在我們現在已經在進行中的地質調查把它釐清後續要進行可信性的研究所以我們覺得在國道六號東延部分在交通部也是持一個正面的態度但是我們期待它是經過一個很完整的一個評估就跟全國的各個建設計劃一樣"},{"start":2140.723,"end":2145.569,"text":"那以下的這個兩個報告我就請章崔龍司長跟這個趙信華局長來特別來這個詳細跟各位報告。謝謝。"},{"start":2164.136,"end":2191.083,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生以下就0403花蓮地震有關公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制提出來報告4月3號早晨7點58分花蓮縣政府南南東方25公里處發生瑞士規模7.2地震地震深度15.5公里"},{"start":2194.775,"end":2196.943,"text":"交通部接獲中央應變中心開設通報隨即派員進駐"},{"start":2200.222,"end":2228.421,"text":"所屬各機關及開設緊急應變小組以下緊急鐵路、公路、海運、觀光應變作為就報告．進行報告．在公路設施搶修部分．這次地震造成台八中橫公路．台九、台九町新舊蘇花公路．台十一花東濱海公路及臺十四甲離山道物色等路段落實攤方．經公路及相關公路段積極搶災．"},{"start":2230.542,"end":2254.214,"text":"省道編號公路均已經在4月7日12點完成搶通作業有關台八中橫公路、台九縣蘇花公路搶修復建的情形報告如下台九縣蘇花公路在崇德以北20公里到宜蘭和平溪口20公里範圍內一共有6處的災阻有6處災阻那"},{"start":2257.915,"end":2261.48,"text":"那其中台九縣就是剛剛部長所提的下清水斷橋、積極搶修岡變橋是在4月6號18點"},{"start":2267.537,"end":2288.762,"text":"單線雙向開放五噸以下的小型車通行。在台八線東段也就是和歡山到太魯閣之間70公里的路廊內,主要的摘點有13處。13處我們在4月6號12點30分搶通。台八線中橫西段也就是中橫便道行政區在台中市行政區內。"},{"start":2290.262,"end":2319.531,"text":"在谷關跟德基範圍的24公里內主要災點有11處攤方。那我們也在4月7號12點之前完成搶修恢復通行。在應變措施方面在道路管制蘇花公路在台九縣也就是花蓮縣秀林鄉、崇德以北、太魯閣以北7公里範圍內7公里範圍內我們每天以開放三次的方式而進行管制。在台八縣中橫公路東段"},{"start":2322.622,"end":2322.642,"text":" ．一、"},{"start":2342.899,"end":2358.152,"text":"總統變道總統變道我們每天以開放兩次的方式提供提供通行那目前仍是以規範有五種對象可以進出就是離山的居民、工程維修、緊急救難、協助研究以及公務"},{"start":2359.033,"end":2383.489,"text":"那在昨天開始我們為了讓災區的農作物能夠運輸也開放現種提高到17公噸讓災食物跟蔬果能夠運輸下山在協助撤離受困人車部分台八縣因為地震攤房災損超過500多人受困在太魯閣京英酒店經過公路局緊急搶修在4月6號"},{"start":2384.73,"end":2401.492,"text":"早上巡查、排除零星落石後,在10點、13點及16點開放天翔往西經由大漁嶺到台14甲線往南投或是於大漁嶺經過台7甲往宜蘭通行。"},{"start":2402.633,"end":2429.57,"text":"開放的車輛是一種也就是二十人座以下的車輛通行由警方於大漁嶺天翔社管制站一共撤離了三十輛至小客車三輛騎車人數一共是兩百三十二人那上有兩百七十二位留在太魯閣京英酒店的旅客跟員工公路局也緊急增調了十三輛的中巴在四月七號抵達酒店並在"},{"start":2431.739,"end":2456.685,"text":"當天上午11點開始撤離人員全速往西送至台中高鐵站在設施的復原重建部分在台九縣下清水橋的復建我們在中段當天就清理舊橋讓受困的民眾通行第一階段我們開放岡邊橋是供5噸以下的小車通行"},{"start":2459.406,"end":2473.263,"text":" ．二、我們將優化岡邊橋預計在五月底希望能夠讓大型車通行在未來的復建我們希望在今年年底能夠完成那其他的摘點我們主要以民隧道"},{"start":2474.565,"end":2490.179,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":2490.179,"end":2505.265,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2505.525,"end":2527.39,"text":"引運以及用路人跟旅客的安全這個部分我們會在115年底也就是在兩年半年能夠完成台八中橫的西段中橫變道的部分有11個點我們用要用護坡保護的方式也會在今年年底完成同時公路局就不發汽車駕照行車執照牌照發放"},{"start":2528.57,"end":2549.705,"text":"等六項的業務也提供減免規會到113年10月底此外公路局也在研議在花蓮地區的大遊覽車減免汽車燃料稅及牌照稅的做法這個是有關公路部分的搶修復建以及重建的工作在鐵路部分"},{"start":2551.805,"end":2554.25,"text":"地震當下造成北回鐵路及東線有10處的障礙在4月3日24小時"},{"start":2559.451,"end":2582.864,"text":"完成障礙排除之後我們在4月3號兩次動動也就是在地震發生後的16個小時內完成單線雙向通車在4月4號7點完成最後一次搶修後也就是在地震後23小時內完成東西陣線雙向的運行在鐵路部分的應變部分"},{"start":2583.804,"end":2600.264,"text":"提出應變部分。第3當下造成台鐵公司依然交西以南到花蓮鳳林以北停止。在覆死後,台鐵公司隨即投入人員的輸印、物資的輸送,特別是以平車載運中華電信的維修工程車"},{"start":2601.045,"end":2618.838,"text":"以及台水公司的搶修工程車及救援機具物資、抵達花蓮和平等站進行救災的工作。此外,台鐵公司也執行蘇國北運的作業,供應蘇國合作社提出申請,但是到運變中心結束開設時,"},{"start":2620.726,"end":2638.923,"text":"並沒有業者提出申請並沒有業者提出申請在復建在復原重建部分目前只有台鐵的秀林重合站月台有局部受損我們會盡快地搶修會要在今年的10月底供恢復正常運作供旅客上下車"},{"start":2639.884,"end":2658.078,"text":"在空運的應變方面,花蓮地震造成入運中斷。為了疏離受困民眾,交通部民調局當日及協調航空公司在4月3日及4月10日加開台北、台中、高雄往返花蓮的班機一共17架次。"},{"start":2659.113,"end":2676.088,"text":"在海運的設施搶修部分地震造成花蓮港外港範圍內編號17到25號等9座碼頭的後線備填區域因為土壤局部異化產生15到70公分不等的下陷隆起"},{"start":2677.889,"end":2691.377,"text":"這個部分經港公司緊急搶修後目前除了20號及21號碼頭沒有辦法正常作業外其餘的碼頭均恢復運作在海港的"},{"start":2693.189,"end":2708.537,"text":"應變措施方面．地震當時．因為蘇花公路下清水橋的斷橋．在台鐵公司輸運正常之後．台鐵公司隨即睜開花東列車外．交通部航港局也在第一時間啟動海運輸運的備援機制．立即緊急調度臺北快輪．"},{"start":2717.934,"end":2734.569,"text":"來進行輸運並且在親民年假期間運人不是尖峰的時段協調連江縣政府調度新馬輪在4月5號起協助輸運在不收費的情形下在4月4號起總共4天內開航10個航次輸運782人再運各類車輛586輛以上是"},{"start":2744.457,"end":2772.188,"text":"海運的輸運循序。在復原重建、花蓮港、花蓮港部分港公司因為23號碼頭受損較為輕微所以修復後將作為維生碼頭來維持東部的地區的貨物運輸在未來的復建部分17號外港區域17號到25號碼頭的整建部分我們會在今年底完成四座碼頭的整建"},{"start":2772.948,"end":2790.894,"text":"並且在明年的年中、明年6月之前完成剩下的5座碼頭整建。港公司將針對這次地震引發的問題會特別針對碼頭的承載力以及抗潮位的功能來加強對"},{"start":2793.131,"end":2820.828,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2820.968,"end":2838.288,"text":"另外一般旅館有漢翔酒店這三家酒店這剩一家飯店都申請停業到4月30號那其中花蓮漢平酒店除了停業之外也向地方政府提出申請要資遣員工交通部觀光署定有交通部觀光"},{"start":2840.127,"end":2867.049,"text":"屬接受禮數業融資相關的信用保證要點．協助受災的業者順利取得資本性融資．或者是周轉金的貸款辦理災後重建．希望能夠恢復正常的營運。最後要特別剛主席及各位委員、理事先生報告．這次地震造成花蓮地區交通設施的多處的災損．聯外交通一度中斷．"},{"start":2868.427,"end":2882.937,"text":"交通部及所屬機關在中央災害應變中心指揮下、協同行政院災防辦公室、內政部、消防署、警政署等單位緊急應變、全力搶修、鐵路在4月4日及恢復雙線正常運作"},{"start":2886.588,"end":2910.317,"text":"嚴重攤方的台八線中橫公路及台九線也恢復通車並啟動緊急車輛爭吊的機制將受困的旅客安全撤離災區也因為適逢親民假期交通部也立即啟動海空運的輸運協助東部民眾返鄉及輸運旅客後續交通部將督導所有的"},{"start":2912.011,"end":2912.912,"text":"市長,您的報告很像總統部長的報告"},{"start":2940.066,"end":2947.96,"text":"你把所有部位全部納入。那個請回。照這樣剪短一點好不好?報告過了不要再重複了。"},{"start":2949.484,"end":2975.727,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生以效就國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案處理意見報告那傅委員所提的這個草案那我們提出交通部的建議公委員來參考那辦理過程的話第一個就是說84年的話曾經有完成過國道六號的一個可行性研究那因為穿越中央山脈上存在地熱、斷層、鹽爆、湧水等不確定因素那經報告行政院92年"},{"start":2977.228,"end":2999.478,"text":"七月合定,勿封道浦里段,定名為國道六號南投段,已於98年3月通則。第二個部分就是說103年行政院103年2月26號國土保育專案辦理情形這個會議才是在安全、共生及永續的觀念下,高山公路原則上不再開闢,也不輕易啟動拓寬。"},{"start":3003.137,"end":3024.749,"text":"一百零九年三月四號立法院交通委員會決議請交通部三個月內重新啟動國道六號埔里花蓮段的地質調查探勘這個部分的話我們也有做處理那交通部在一百零九年的六月五號也報行政院就是說這個探勘工作要辦這個探勘工作那行政院是一百"},{"start":3025.929,"end":3037.254,"text":"09年11月30日和徒請本權則何處那這個部分後來我們交通部考量整個開發的一個案子所以這成為我們在110年底召開諮詢會議來爭取收集各方的意見作為後續參考"},{"start":3043.117,"end":3067.073,"text":"國道六號如果由埔里到花蓮延伸到這個出名的路廊總長90公里,隧道群有18座總長約50公里,路廊最長的單一隧道達17.4公里。高工局在110年12月召開專家學者諮詢會議,初步認為他穿越中岸山脈不確定因素甚多,除了工程技術困難,"},{"start":3068.554,"end":3088.965,"text":"難度高以外並具有造架高、工期長、環境衝擊巨大、行車安全及防救災疑慮。行政院陳院長在112年3月4日在立法院答詢時同意辦理地質調查。高工局已經在啟動這項調查工作。"},{"start":3090.919,"end":3097.646,"text":"第7後續的話交通部將視路廊、踏勘及地質調查研究結果來根據辦理後續的規劃、環評及引領相關的一個建設計畫作業"},{"start":3105.114,"end":3124.046,"text":"第三、交通部建議處理意見:「國道六號東延計劃因穿越中央山脈地質複雜,已先釐清相關工程關鍵課題,已依行政院所屬各機關中長期個案計劃編審要點規定,按預算程序逐年編列經費循序辦理。」"},{"start":3127.202,"end":3133.347,"text":"所以交通部在支持花東地區已經投入了中長期的一個計畫已經超過2200億加上未來規劃中的蘇花安這些等超過3000億的一個鐵公路建設"},{"start":3140.011,"end":3160.868,"text":"第二、國道六號由湖里東延花蓮因穿越中央山脈不確定因素很多目前相關課題的調查已經展開我們建議是說等到整個足夠的資訊有收集到足夠資訊之後嚴厲解決方案再繼續進行後續作業以上報告敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":3168.035,"end":3189.893,"text":"這一次花蓮的震災,馬祖請農務,但是新臺馬倫在請農務的情況之下,縣長跟鄉親決定第一時間我們把最新的新臺馬倫持往花蓮震災,那麼運輸了兩百多輛車子,四百多位鄉親順利的回來。"},{"start":3193.787,"end":3220.578,"text":"然後馬祖內部不是沒問題,也是一團的亂,要吊住船隻所以我們全體的同仁是不是給馬祖、縣政府跟鄉親掌聲鼓勵一下好不好?非常謝謝王縣長跟我們所有鄉親的支持好,現在進行合併詢答先宣告以下的事項範圍時間初期委員五分鐘,列席委員四分鐘"},{"start":3229.576,"end":3246.873,"text":"委員發言登記於11點30分截止。各委員如果有提案,請在11點鐘以前提出,以便醫生人員會診。暫定11點半休息10分鐘。總委員則上不休息。現在請登記第一位委員李崑哲召委發言。"},{"start":3252.639,"end":3254.721,"text":"謝謝陳雪生、趙偉請下王國材部長、趙新華局長還有齊相淑、陳署長齊相淑署長"},{"start":3263.236,"end":3288.648,"text":"呃,召會長,李召會長部長好對於任何地方重要的交通建設其實交通委員會長期以來都是不分黨派也沒有意識形態都會給予全力的支持我們看到馬祖的建設就好陳雪生召委也非常認真實在的爭取那也為馬祖爭取很多重要的交通建設那對於"},{"start":3290.922,"end":3317.381,"text":"國道六號延伸花蓮這樣的一個特別條例其實我們都是支持對於任何縣市尤其是花蓮一條安全的道路當然也都會全力的支持但是交通建設其實大家都很清楚是不能用法律來框定的它必須透過嚴謹的程序它有相關的不管是像地質調查"},{"start":3319.38,"end":3335.931,"text":"可行性研究還有環境的這樣的一個綜合規劃然後是環境影響評估環差的評估財務的評估都是必須經過這些程序的剛才也提到這一次花蓮的地震"},{"start":3337.234,"end":3365.174,"text":"蘇花街、花圭它應有的一個安全的功能目前是還沒有蘇花安啦因為蘇花安現在還在做環境影響評估不是嗎 來說明一下是 呃 剛才報告就是說蘇、蘇花安現在在做環評、中規所以就是只有蘇花街因為它其實本來就是蘇花高速公路嘛對就是因為環境的一個評估啊沒有通過所以我們"},{"start":3365.674,"end":3366.054,"text":"當然這些其實剛才也提到"},{"start":3383.482,"end":3410.689,"text":"這一條道路從埔里到花蓮不管是從過去7919年開始不管是一般的道路或是國道相關的延伸其實已經經過9次了經過藍綠的執政也已經經過9次的相關的評估、分析、什麼所以說我們必須還是要有一套嚴謹的程序尤其是經過中央山脈它有斷層的問題"},{"start":3412.383,"end":3440.202,"text":"啊他有言報的問題他有地熱的問題他有永全的問題所以他的地質的這樣的一個啊調查是非常重要的因為任何交通建設啊一定是要以安全為前提要以永續為前提要以共生為前提不是嗎安全的道理就是這樣來的啊那我們也提到說這一次相關的這樣的一個"},{"start":3441.645,"end":3469.292,"text":"國六東延的條例說要10年內要來完成可惜嗎雪山隧道不過是13公里挖了15年才完成台北的鐵路地下化23公里也經過了28年才完成那我們相關的這些國道六號的這些"},{"start":3471.138,"end":3496.615,"text":"我們必須要清楚他全場大概是90公里有70公里是隧道最長的隧道在目前的規劃大概是超過17公里以上如果是真的施工的話但是全世界第三長的隧道10年內能完成嗎部長、局長你們都是專業的交通人士交通的專家"},{"start":3497.395,"end":3520.927,"text":"如果這個條例通過10年內能完成嗎 來說明一下非常困難我跟委員在報告就國道這個東六號東延花蓮事實上過去是已經講說已經打死的不做了那我們後來覺得必須這個往前來走所以我們現在在做一件事就剛才談到的地址的調查還有路廊的踏竿路廊"},{"start":3521.807,"end":3546.899,"text":"怎麼樣避過這些環境敏感或地質敏感的地帶那現在這個已經按照我們這個中長期個案計畫在進行當中了如果在我們榻坑路廊找到然後這個這個平屋可行我們就進入可行性然後綜合規劃、環評等等的程序那的確剛才委員所提的非常重要就是說過去我們全國的各個個案計畫"},{"start":3548.14,"end":3553.754,"text":"都是經過一個詳細的評估。如果沒有一個詳細的評估就把它定案。"},{"start":3555.52,"end":3579.445,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":3579.525,"end":3605.626,"text":"不分黨派不分藍綠也沒有意識形態都會全力的支持我想陳雪生召委對於交通委員會長久的這樣的一個大家的共識覺得這是一個很重要的一個方向那對於重要的交通建設當然現在用定法律的狀況要來推動或者是大家對於權力分立的原則"},{"start":3607.147,"end":3623.739,"text":"認為立委的權利應該要更大要凌駕行政要凌駕司法這都另當別論但是千萬別忘了交通建設安全永續共生這是最重要的前提"},{"start":3625.052,"end":3647.409,"text":"尤其是中央山脈這一次0403的花蓮大地震造成整個生態的衝擊我們要讓整個交通建設更符合安全永續的這樣的一個前提我希望各位委員、交通委員會的委員要深切的思考另外我們現在來討論地震的問題"},{"start":3651.252,"end":3668.963,"text":"陳署長,我們這一次其實我們看到2024四月份這個四月到目前還沒有過完四月份總共發生了940次的地震那顯著的有感地震有191個最大的有感"},{"start":3670.145,"end":3687.398,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":3687.779,"end":3698.286,"text":"地震我們來比照2023年同樣是4月其實增加了10倍那2023年的這樣的一個災防的一個國家級警報發佈了13次2024年到今天已經發佈了26次是不是來署長說明一下"},{"start":3709.758,"end":3723.912,"text":"國家級警報發布有一定的標準只要規模和震度達到一個程度就會發布的確在花蓮地震之後有很多的余震國家級警報是2012年我推動的當時還沒有細胞廣播系統也沒有國家級警報"},{"start":3731.44,"end":3746.527,"text":"那要求當時的毛志國部長必須要全力的建置相關的這一些機制也要求NCC要全力的配合但是我們國家級這個警報到目前為止他的"},{"start":3747.967,"end":3765.847,"text":"午報的情形還是時有發生我們這個機制應該要進行修正那我們看到2021年到今年到現在為止發生了7次重大的午報事件不管是2021年你看同一個地震宜蘭"},{"start":3768.908,"end":3786.153,"text":"同一個區域的地震發布了14次的地震或者是震度兩極他也發布這樣一個告警或者是台東二級地震卻在台南發布這個國家警的警報那這一次大家印象最深刻的就4月3日有7個縣市應該要發布沒有發布當然我們這個"},{"start":3793.587,"end":3821.866,"text":"四月三號當然是這個7.2級的這個地震也會低估為6.8級的強震所以我這七個縣市沒有發布那我有一個具體的想法地震預警應該要發布而沒有發布那現在發布的標準是25G對不對來署長說明一下是四級地震的震度25G好三級地震的能量大概是8至25G是不是這樣是"},{"start":3824.187,"end":3824.388,"text":"來,書長說明一下。"},{"start":3846.243,"end":3860.861,"text":"是 這個的確有考量我們也在檢討那相關的這個這些的作為我們其實已經有邀請了這個學者專家我們在下個禮拜就會有學者專家討論會針對這個後續的相關的改善作為去做討論好署長"},{"start":3864.685,"end":3876.856,"text":"另外就是規模6.5以上的這個地震啊它震度會比較強而且一定會相關的餘震會比較多而且震的時間也比較久那我們是不是"},{"start":3878.824,"end":3892.411,"text":"來研究一下請專家學者大家來研究這個發生規模6.5以上的地震的時候震度3級以上是否這些區域也花布告緊這個是要很嚴謹的態度來思考來請署長簡單說明一下"},{"start":3895.732,"end":3914.797,"text":"是這個在過去我們討論裡面的確有討論那這個部分因為發布會牽涉到防災單位相關的作為那其實過去我們有邀請這個災防辦還有地方政府的災防機關一起做討論那我想經過這一次的這個事件之後對這件事情會有一個比較明確的結論"},{"start":3916.257,"end":3942.747,"text":"必須以更嚴謹的態度來修正相關的這些標準值讓民眾能夠確實得到預警的這樣一個效果那這麼多年來12年來也逐漸建立了國家級警報大家對於他的一個基本的信任那相關的誤報、落報的狀況必須要儘速的來做一個調整希望這個氣象署必須全力的來督促相關的作業好謝謝委員好謝謝我們李奮哲總召"},{"start":3949.663,"end":3951.805,"text":"稍微請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝主席,請王部長王部長請"},{"start":3972.281,"end":3994.706,"text":"部長早部長我想本席這個會期就已經三次三次兩次在交通一次在經濟針對這個特別條例這是第三次說實在話本席講的都已經有一點這個老生常談這個會期就講了三次本席要再一次強調"},{"start":3996.65,"end":4024.839,"text":"每一個委員為自己的選區爭取權利每一個委員為國家重大建設發展來爭取我都覺得很合理但是本席要再一次強調本席絕對反對用特別條例此例如果一開第一個破壞了憲法權利分立的原則立法委員只要誰佔多數立法委員相互支持大家都來提特別條例"},{"start":4026.53,"end":4054.747,"text":"我跟雪生召委已經做很多年的同事了他長期為離島在拼命為他的馬祖在拼命他也很清楚的知道你看今天只給我5分鐘嘛他也很清楚的知道這個題目沒什麼好講了啦所以他只給我5分鐘嘛因為他知道我上來又要批評這件事情因為資深委員就知道這件事情如果這樣搞可行他早就已經提在馬祖至少提200個特別條例了啦"},{"start":4056.549,"end":4075.157,"text":"對馬祖台灣啊馬祖台灣大橋特別條例他不用在馬祖一誤來就不能不能動啊不是他不能來開會是整個馬祖的鄉親很不方便啊那搞不搞一個特別條例馬祖直接蓋一個大橋通直通台灣"},{"start":4077.446,"end":4099.339,"text":"他也知道他也心中也覺得如果可行有預算還評都過了可行性評估也過政府也有錢當然啊他也很支持啊我也很支持雖然我不住馬祖他也約過很多次我都沒有去馬祖可是我也會支持為什麼這個條件一切都符合所以他你看他為什麼那麼多年很認真在立法院質詢"},{"start":4100.953,"end":4127.306,"text":"我在當副院長的時候他每次上台總質詢他都很認真把馬祖鄉親的需求讓行政部門知道因為這是權力分立啦這是權力分立啦現場那麼多的委員難道每一個選區沒有需要的嗎?上一次我在跟你講過嘛如果特別條例這種做法是可行的我也講過啊大台中發展特別條例一照啦請你幫我準備好我就要提這個"},{"start":4128.7,"end":4149.526,"text":"不可行嘛不能這樣搞嘛權利分立憲法給予立法院什麼職權我們叫五權分立大家不滿意改三權我都沒意見那個都是大家可以討論在民主社會民主政治裡面都可以討論但現行的架構五權分立的架構裡面立法院負責什麼行政院負責什麼大家清清楚楚"},{"start":4150.735,"end":4175.062,"text":"國家這樣才有辦法運作嘛所以回到國道六號的延伸本席過去也曾經講過嘛這個是國家重大建設這條如果通的話那台中到花蓮很近嘛所以交通部現在也在進行你們叫做地質、地表地質的調查對不對那你為什麼要做地表地質的調查"},{"start":4176.923,"end":4190.381,"text":"表示那個地方在狀況上面的確碰到很多這個原爆啦還有一些這個地質斷層的沒有錯所以他是很務實科學我們要面對很多環團對於環境的質疑"},{"start":4192.495,"end":4208.574,"text":"蓋了這一條路對台灣的這些原生的植物動物對台灣的環境有沒有產生什麼樣的衝擊我們必須把環境的對環境的衝擊跟影響做一個很完整的評估我們不應該再相信人定勝天嘛"},{"start":4209.642,"end":4228.84,"text":"一個地震你看我們今天都還要為地震臺灣這個多地震的島嶼我們不斷的在祈福不斷的在努力怎麼讓災害沒辦法我們克服不了天他要讓我們地震就地震但我們提供怎麼樣的預警系統我們提供怎麼樣的防震的法規條文來防止蓋的更堅固"},{"start":4230.168,"end":4249.102,"text":"所以我們只能在上天啊聯名的情況底下我們盡其人類的可能來做所以一樣的道理當我們面對國家重大建設我們第一個要想到我們要挑戰天要挑戰什麼所以國道六號我不會說我一開始就說毫無理性的我就贊成或反對但我遵照"},{"start":4250.731,"end":4258.615,"text":"我們行政機關這麼多年下來我們有一套評估的程序這個評估的程序就是類似像這個事情我們必須從地質的調查"},{"start":4261.53,"end":4289.576,"text":"很多包括原住民的等等問題斷層的問題以後這一條會不會面對有經過多少地震斷層帶的問題詳細把它研究好之後如果覺得這個是可以克服我們就進入下一個階段叫做可行性評估然後接著可行性評估如果又過關了可行性評估當然包括環評嘛都過關了我們才有細部設計才有綜合規劃嘛這個就是一個流程這個就是行政流程"},{"start":4290.968,"end":4314.457,"text":"這個就是任何評估一個重大建設理性務實的角度不禮盲、不沖狀、不因為政治口水淹沒了我們這個專業這個也是未來我們這個建設能夠成功要說服民眾說服跟我們意見不同的人我們有一個基本的科學理性的根據這個就是這一套嘛所以我已經講了第三次今天只剩下五分鐘"},{"start":4316.107,"end":4341.215,"text":"但是我還是必須要再一次在這裡大聲的呼籲本期對於每一個委員要提案去爭取建設我都沒意見但是用特別條例的方式如果此例一開我跟大家保證每一個人都有幾百個特別條例要提我常常跟你們講我對我們那個人行道、人孔蓋我都不滿我有人孔蓋發展特別條例"},{"start":4342.827,"end":4359.642,"text":"我有水溝興建特別條例我都一大堆我準備好了嘛如果這個可行這樣二稿可行的話所以本席還是再三呼籲啦立法院立法委員大家很努力要為地方發展來講話本席都覺得很棒很肯定"},{"start":4360.745,"end":4380.018,"text":"但是我們不可以立法委員帶頭把違憲亂政把這種明顯就違反權力分立的原則這種方式如果可以搞過去我們立法院已經11屆了立法院不是第一屆啦所以本席還是再一次這樣最後我只提醒一點因為時間已經到了我只提醒一點"},{"start":4381.53,"end":4403.677,"text":"對於震後就是現在我們在談這個所謂應變機制這個因為事實上已經開始應變但是本期比較關心的是震後花蓮觀光產業的振興因為大家知道先天這兩年已經先天不亮從疫情結束之後國人旅遊型態的改變缺工的問題結構的這種調整"},{"start":4406.278,"end":4407.018,"text":"〈花蓮地震公路〉"},{"start":4434.428,"end":4456.92,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":4457.06,"end":4469.028,"text":"指放聯盟來評估嘛我們指放可以帶動可不可以透過指放的比賽然後帶動西部的觀光客的球迷就過去那邊然後可以讓他住就住"},{"start":4469.838,"end":4469.878,"text":"謝謝蔡委員長。"},{"start":4496.428,"end":4514.855,"text":"好,謝謝蔡副委員長對馬祖的支持希望你第4次發言繼續幫我們發聲,謝謝看來你講馬祖的時間我都幫你扣掉了好,下一位請游昊委員發言"},{"start":4525.899,"end":4529.261,"text":"謝謝找委有請部長部長請部長好部長辛苦那在這裡也延續了剛才質詢跟發言的情況那本期同樣的今天也是第三次兩次在交通一次在經濟還針對這特別條例阿"},{"start":4550.911,"end":4567.998,"text":"那表示支持跟而且也是必須必要那因為如果說許多的重大建設那因為過去包括這8年的一些停滯那而沒有辦法進行我想說我們國內的重大建設也不能這樣子一直的延宕跟delay"},{"start":4568.938,"end":4591.906,"text":"相信這個所謂的特別條例一定是重大的建設或事件才會有所以包括這個嚴重特殊傳染肺炎防治及紓困陣型特別條例過去在通過的時候大家其實不管是這時候藍綠都有見證同樣的交通委員會的立委一定對於國內的交通發展跟建設絕對是不分藍綠"},{"start":4593.286,"end":4621.49,"text":"那我相信在這個中台灣的生活圈包括中張頭如果能夠藉由國道六號東延還能夠到花蓮的話我相信這個不僅是對花蓮有幫助對南投有幫助甚至對整個中張頭在交通發展或公關發展等等絕對都有幫助所以說在這次的特別條例那我在想本席同樣的是就如上次在交通後面在經濟也希望說今天在交通委員會再次表達"},{"start":4622.55,"end":4642.583,"text":"這個特別條例、國道六號東延那個其實是重要且必須就如上次所講的過去有十大建設那這十大建設創造了我們台灣經濟發展的奇跡那現在也需要許多亮點的交通建設才能夠讓我們小小的台灣在許多的交通的面向上更能四通八達"},{"start":4643.303,"end":4643.623,"text":" ﹝國道六號東延草案﹞"},{"start":4664.426,"end":4692.185,"text":"那在將來能夠盡快來去做實施我覺得這樣子的建設不僅是對南投跟花蓮是好對於整個國家的經濟發展絕對是大有助益那所以說在過去從79年就已經規劃那我相信剛才部長一開始在說明的時候也有提到說支持正面的態度那其實在有時候啊其實南投的鄉親大家都會提啊"},{"start":4693.305,"end":4711.075,"text":"這個以前的話縱北傾南他過去8年的這個前瞻計畫縱南傾北但是中部阿東部爹不疼娘不愛好不容易有一個國道東延還可以讓南投跟花蓮做一個大型的交通建設就在現在的話還是需要從中阻礙那在南投過去"},{"start":4711.855,"end":4739.683,"text":"一開始有這個貫通的話是在這個台灣鎮總兵吳光亮那時候打通八通關古道那後面開始有公路的實施那過去的一個重要的交通建設而現在剛才我們有提到的許多隧道的部分其實現在的技術上其實通通是已經可以來超越那也可以來完成這樣子的一個交通建設其實在國外比這個技術更難的其實也是都有"},{"start":4740.143,"end":4768.403,"text":"所以說本席還是在這裡就是要就教部長在其實民進黨過去也曾經提到花東發展條例也是特別條例特別基金特別預算那在今天的國道六號東延那交通部除了正面態度之外那可以在多少的時間之內那盡可能的來針對六號東延來提出一些具體的時程表跟計畫表跟大家說明等有人報告齁"},{"start":4769.204,"end":4788.159,"text":"因為這一個叫做個案計劃就像委員在談比如說捷運行政在南投這叫個案計劃那過去是比較沒有針對個案計劃來提因為個案計劃它必須經過我們中長期計劃的審議程序來進行就是說包括這個可行性綜合規劃、環評等等的"},{"start":4790.58,"end":4809.231,"text":"我們認為這次台八縣的確顯現出脆弱的一面我剛才說持正面態度我們現在就要進行當中了的確中部地區要有一條比台八縣更安全的路我想這部分是我這次感覺所以我想說"},{"start":4810.751,"end":4832.636,"text":"我們持正面但是如果不經過評估我們現在正在做路廊的調查還有這個地質的調查路廊調查踏灘路廊踏灘就是開始找路廊預計多久之內這個調查報告會出來一五年就就出來了比如說已經找到路廊地質OK那就是進入後面的可行性的一些程序那我是希望事實上最重要一點是說這種個案計畫"},{"start":4834.957,"end":4855.179,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4855.319,"end":4879.352,"text":"我沒關係因為等一下還會審查條文還會繼續所以說第一的話是希望說正面的態度就是積極的作為那再來的話南東縣政府有提到南豐村到青外村的高架道路可以成為六號的先期的一個交通建設的部分他也希望能夠列入紀錄還能夠盡快來做一個評估謝謝好謝謝好謝謝六號委員的發言下一位請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":4887.998,"end":4916.895,"text":"我們台南的大佬林俊賢委員感謝雪宮主席本席邀請我們交通部王部長王部長請委員請台鐵,台鐵在嗎?公總在嗎?公路局在嗎?部長我們4月3日發生發生了花蓮大地震那4月10日有一塊落石"},{"start":4918.328,"end":4941.996,"text":"在台九線160的地方掉下來打到了火車你知道吧?知道,是。還有運氣啊,那個石頭非常非常大。砸中了台鐵啊。幸好沒有人傷亡啊。他是掉在軌道的旁邊,然後車子在走去插撞他。好。但是那個地方啊,就是台九線160K啊。"},{"start":4945.099,"end":4972.802,"text":"臺鐵說那個地方不是落石區了臺鐵你知道吧臺灣經過地震以後我們所有的鐵公路沿線都做邊坡的安全檢測所以在這一次發生這塊大石頭的地方臺鐵裡面是不列為落石區了但是很奇怪了公路局是把它列為落石區了是同樣一座山同樣一個地方"},{"start":4973.783,"end":4996.65,"text":"台九線這個鐵公路是並行的是連在一起的為什麼一個單位說落石區一個單位說不是我先初步說明一下台九線是在鐵路的上面所以台九有它的邊坡然後鐵路在下面所以不是嗎它等於是從它掉到公路不會再往下掉再滾過去就到鐵路啊"},{"start":4999.591,"end":5010.61,"text":"他一條上面一條下面阿你有規定池頭只能滾到公路就要停下來阿如果你公路以上是落水區你鐵路當然也是吧這樣才合理吧"},{"start":5011.687,"end":5034.481,"text":"那花蓮港鐵所在公路公總說他那個邊坡是落實區那台鐵同樣經過啊就旁邊有兩條線上下平行的啊那邊不是落實區的確那個公路齁它事實上我們等於在我們蘇阿安裡面的和平到合作我們要全部再去全部要再去通盤檢討檢測啦因為當時就發生了那個落實的意外嘛"},{"start":5041.158,"end":5069.977,"text":"地震嘛你知道台灣現在地震恐怕越來越頻繁了2022年台東就六級多啦今年2024年花蓮就七級多了上次大地震在台南2018年嘛對不對也是六級多大地震嘛好那就算公路局把它列為落實區啊那公路局啊既然是落實區他也沒有安裝落實警告系統那地方也沒有也沒有"},{"start":5072.771,"end":5092.865,"text":"所以他沒有辦法預先偵測到落實他也沒辦法去警告台鐵那我來找一下目前公務局的落實警告系統就做大概這8個地方了是經費預算不夠嗎還是你逐年安裝還沒有做好"},{"start":5094.624,"end":5114.603,"text":"各位委員報告因為我們主要還是做就是說防落實的相關的一個設施啦因為告警的話就是說他其實是就是說是先警告就是用路者比如說前方的不過因為有落實的地方的話其實我們是先做整治你不要看這個小事情喔你那個變波檢測都假的啊"},{"start":5116.369,"end":5137.18,"text":"同一個邊坡台鐵說不是落實區公總說是我就用這個案子給你參考了而且這個地方確實發生損害啦還好啦落實沒有直接擊中車廂啦有沒有導致火車翻覆或遊客有死傷啦"},{"start":5140.423,"end":5166.969,"text":"我跟鐵路跟公路都要做個討論啦再來我來談一下今天的主題啦國六東延到花蓮的問題啦我記得當以前高空局有估算過預算嘛好像3年前估8815這樣子大概8000億左右8000億嘛那3年前嘛現在啊我看要破照啦"},{"start":5169.58,"end":5180.045,"text":"三年來再加上物條再加上人工物料的漲價超級乾坤啊那重點是蓋得起來嗎你做得開嗎在這個國民黨提的這個東延國六東延裡面他規定10年要完成各位你知道雪水12公里挖了15年了"},{"start":5199.434,"end":5215.92,"text":"在這個國六東延裡面啊最最困難的就是能高山啊能高山碎到幾公里?好像18公里啊?17公里多少?比雪碎還要長啊雪碎花15年喔能高山要花幾年?"},{"start":5218.108,"end":5244.367,"text":"跟委員報告這個還要再評估還要再評估嗎?也效益很長而且龍高山那個地質很脆弱的啦什麼岩盤啦、湧泉啦等等啦雪碎啊死了13個人啦我在龍高山這種難度啦我看會更危險啦對不對那同時啊你為了要東延到花蓮啦你那個橋墩要架很高啦因為他才可以衝過高山嘛"},{"start":5245.322,"end":5271.448,"text":"我看你的計畫裡面估算喔,哇這個這非常可怕啦台灣第二高的啦就附近啦國信啦南投國信鄉的那個橋墩啦70公尺啦就橋墩高有23層樓啦你現在國六如果東延喔到霧社啦就超將近1150公尺啦比國信還要高很多啦所以呢橋墩恐怕一定會破100公尺啦100公尺30幾層樓高的橋墩欸"},{"start":5276.175,"end":5304.026,"text":"然後你要再估算他能不能抵擋天災強震啊而且他也不是直接就裝那麼高你要慢慢慢慢慢慢讓車子滑坡上去啊所以這個工程啊有相當高的一個困難度啦那以前我看這個計劃裡面吳君濟委員啊他說拿歐洲尤其像瑞士的鐵路隧道來做比較啦那瑞士的山脈都古老山脈研板他那個非常穩定啊"},{"start":5305.25,"end":5321.595,"text":"台灣不一樣喔台灣的中央山脈啦是新生的山脈尤其像農高山這種喔中央山脈地址那是片岩啦一片一片那個很脆齁那歪下去很容易整個崩塌下來所以困難度不知道是絕對是遠高於"},{"start":5324.644,"end":5348.775,"text":"現在像類似隧道這種等等啦因為你要挖隧道你要把那個岩盤破壞掉因為它整個都石頭嘛你要把它挖開嘛雪碎的岩盤啦岩附啦就岩盤的覆蓋高度大概750公尺國六這個都超過1000公尺各位可以想一想當時挖雪碎喔50幾噸挖到剪痛口啦"},{"start":5350.559,"end":5379.509,"text":"現在限定國六到花蓮要10年完成那有可能啦而且你要經過了丹大野生動物保護區能丹野鳥棲息地光環頻力環頻力要做到合年合月啦那怎麼可能怎麼可能限期完成而且是破造的工程蓋下去如果蓋到一半蓋不起來蓋下去以後安全性的考量超級前根法案"},{"start":5381.254,"end":5404.582,"text":"﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5405.54,"end":5432.008,"text":"反對沒辦法他稍微一修改就經過國家公園你看環評就卡那裏更何況整個國道六這個環評恐怕更複雜所以我是覺得政策一定要考量現實面還有它的可執行度否則都弄到後來好不好提起點來跟大家做參考交換意見謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":5434.807,"end":5452.718,"text":"好,謝謝林靜憲委員的發言。下一位請何欣晨委員發言。有沒有急功?謝謝主席陳學生召委。我們請部長。"},{"start":5461.538,"end":5484.471,"text":"市長好,我們今天談花蓮地震那震災之後呢我看媒體有報導那事實上落石有落到這個鐵道那我就想到說不管是天災或者是事故那安全永遠排第一那我之前在台中捷運發生事故的時候曾經在"},{"start":5485.171,"end":5506.727,"text":"要求我們交通部要盤點捷運周遭的工程還有離清楚近縣建的一個規範那甚至進一步的不是只有軌道還有呢我們的國道快速道路等等這周邊的近縣建的這個工程的盤點因為呢除了"},{"start":5507.307,"end":5515.931,"text":"而立正也有可能影響到這些工程的一個建築物或者是他相關的建材設施設備的掉落那也有可能因為發生了"},{"start":5517.83,"end":5537.356,"text":"告知原因的事故也會導致可能如台中捷運那樣子的一個狀況那台中捷運的狀況是已經非常完整的清楚因為我知道我們運安會也有一個相關完整的報告出來但是我覺得我們應該防範於未來而且能夠依照過去的經驗要來面對未來能夠防止相關的事件在發生所以我記得"},{"start":5547.499,"end":5568.7,"text":"對於這個確實當時你也承諾要在兩個月內協調地方政府來盤點清查不管是軌道、國道或各快速道路周邊進線建區的這所謂的工程的狀況來保障安全嘛對不對那我也很高興看到確實我們交通部有盤點他有給了我一"},{"start":5569.241,"end":5590.742,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":5591.448,"end":5607.679,"text":"有沒有再更新應該有再更新部長我跟你講沒有再更新啦應該是當時候1、2年在我的要求之下確實你們有去盤點那盤點出來呢依我現在螢幕上"},{"start":5608.679,"end":5635.676,"text":"給你的頁面是有關中部的那確實有工程名稱啊在哪一個快速道路或國道旁邊啊那這個工程內容是什麼啦是不是有所謂的起重機的吊臂啦齁或者有什麼其他的這個設施設備確實當時候有去盤點但是呢那是112年112年到現在呢沒有為什麼呢因為我們並沒有相關的系統來建置"},{"start":5637.216,"end":5644.141,"text":"那部長你認為該不該建制所謂全國性的這樣子的整合平台而且應該資訊公開透明"},{"start":5647.189,"end":5670.946,"text":"我再瞭解一下當時就是請各地方政府還有包括我們自己的單位旁邊有一些靈鬼工程的做一個調查那資料是不是更新的部分我在因為今天是沒有還沒有確定我可以跟你確定因為當年一、二年的時候是在我的要求的時候才給我"},{"start":5671.647,"end":5688.319,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":5689.136,"end":5706.338,"text":"那這個當然我知道你們需要計畫需要預算來建制那部長你現在承諾說應該需要那是不是趕快在最快的速度裡面折成相關單位趕快編匡列預算趕快做這個建制這個相關的系統整合平台"},{"start":5708.64,"end":5722.611,"text":"首先,定期的更新這部要做。那怎麼公開?就是把這個資料,如果這個系統還沒有建以前,比如說公布在交通部的網站等等的,可以這樣做。是,所以我是建議,"},{"start":5724.252,"end":5747.602,"text":"有分短中長期你說在系統平台還沒有建置之前那是不是應該趕快更新趕快盤點趕快更新趕快公布在你們的官網那如果可以的話我是希望能夠建立一個系統建立一個整合平台讓全台灣各地相關的捷運、國道、省道、快速道路等"},{"start":5748.542,"end":5770.194,"text":"都應該要納入在我們的盤點範圍裡面這個是安全啦好不好好這你答應嗎好那接下來一點點時間我就要問台中機場的事情喔部長台中機場的周邊我知道有一個204年的計畫啦但是呢昨天昨天地方政府有"},{"start":5771.212,"end":5787.537,"text":"我回答地方議員說這個機場周邊的開發評估完成是因為中央定位不明所以我地方政府很難定計畫那部長我們這個台中國際機場的定位不明嗎?"},{"start":5788.226,"end":5801.007,"text":"我現在非常明確那個就是說現在以這個區域當它為主而且現在的航線一直在增加包括新宇你把它當這個等於是hub來"},{"start":5802.714,"end":5813.758,"text":"一個基地嘛一個題目我想中部機場有他的這種區域性的角色而且很重要的區域性的一個起飛航站還有離島的航線還有國際的航線中部地區很重要嘛對不對所以部長我覺得要跟地方溝通啊為什麼"},{"start":5821.761,"end":5843.452,"text":"因為從台中國際機場從陳水扁時代在2004三個台中第一、三個第一我們讓台中機場升格為國際機場一定也是當時胡志強市長的時代我們中央地方合作讓台中機場可以升級成為國際機場那到了"},{"start":5846.834,"end":5866.698,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":5866.758,"end":5867.058,"text":"我們很清楚我們要讓台中國際機場如何"},{"start":5892.756,"end":5908.626,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5908.874,"end":5934.837,"text":"是,因為我們現在台中國際機場2040計畫已經出來,裡面包括我們未來第三航廈。然後我知道過去委員在談這個局限,局限就是機場一線。我覺得它的重要性是尤其是變成這個很重要的台灣機場的一個輔助的很重要的機場。我想這部分我們是不是把這個相關的資料跟台中市政府讓他知道我們後續的一個計畫。"},{"start":5935.998,"end":5949.032,"text":"讓台中市政府知道我們對台中國際機場第一個定位明確第二個滾動式檢討甚至我們中央民道民代不分黨派不分顏色都希望積極的來讓台中國際機場的這個2040的整體規劃案可以盡早提早"},{"start":5957.028,"end":5970.693,"text":"提早施程 對不對來建置我們的台中國際機場 對不對那讓地方政府知道說地方政府周邊該配合的也應該明確的表示如何在配合共同來讓台中國際機場"},{"start":5972.073,"end":5996.305,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6005.97,"end":6012.873,"text":"好,謝謝啊。謝謝何俊仁委員的發言。下一位請陳素悅委員。好,謝謝主席。請主席邀請王部長。"},{"start":6026.651,"end":6029.253,"text":"國道六號東延花蓮建設及花蓮地震陸海空應變機制進行詢答民意代表基於"},{"start":6041.563,"end":6058.344,"text":"值者替地方爭取交通建設我想這個都是天經地義無可厚非的所以對於這個目前有委員要倡議推動福道六號東延花蓮這個建設目前針對這個建設我們交通部有沒有什麼相關的作為"},{"start":6059.415,"end":6078.446,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們現在去年年底啟動叫做路廊踏勘及地質踏勘這兩個工作所以我們現在等下找這個路還要包括地質的調查剛才談到這個中央商賣太多的這個斷層、原爆還有一些還有一個環境敏感地帶"},{"start":6079.446,"end":6102.542,"text":"那我們是覺得整個國道六號東延我們現在在就是已經持正面態度在做這個相關研究但是他一定要經過這個嚴肅的一個評估我們在進行後續所以我們是覺得說還是要有一個嚴謹的評估這個道路未來可行會更高所以我們是希望朝這方面來做的"},{"start":6102.862,"end":6123.593,"text":"對,我們知道就是每一件這個重大的工程都不是一觸可及的而且它的完成也是牽涉的面很廣那條件也不一樣所以我們在推動這個公共的建設就是有一定的一個流程跟期程所以今天這個副委員他提出了這個國道六號東延的這個條例那就"},{"start":6126.474,"end":6139.248,"text":" ︎部長來看這樣子有沒有符合我們這個計劃的流程因為我們過去像那個委員在彰化爭取了很多相關的計劃評估以後就是去進行了所以經過一個嚴謹的評估反而讓這個計劃更可行"},{"start":6142.992,"end":6165.427,"text":"所以我們是覺得在過去沒有個案計畫直接用條例來框那如果這樣的話就是沒有跳過這個委員所提的這些可行性評估到施工的這個過程那我們是覺得這樣事實上跟我們過去的這個嚴謹的是違反的我們是期待還是走回這個地方"},{"start":6166.407,"end":6193.022,"text":"對因為剛剛我有提到就是每一個公共建設的完成它牽涉的人面很廣那具備的條件不一樣所以尤其就是說以目前他們在推動的這個國道六號因為尤其要通過這個中央山脈這個是中央山脈也是被這個就是一些保育專家列為是一個地質敏感區跟保育區所以未來是不是可以在這樣子的一個環境敏感區來興建這個"},{"start":6196.263,"end":6217.757,"text":"快速公布。我想這個都是要經過審慎的一個評估。那尤其我們看到這一次0403的這個花蓮大地震。這個相信也是這個大自然對我們的一個警示。因為以前都說人定可以勝天。我想當大自然反撲的時候,我想是沒有任何人可以去阻擋的。"},{"start":6218.217,"end":6236.374,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6236.374,"end":6255.538,"text":"﹏"},{"start":6255.538,"end":6274.889,"text":" ﹏……"},{"start":6274.949,"end":6298.223,"text":"那一天還好車輛不是連駕的第一天若是連駕第一天路上的車輛很多恐怕會造成更多的災難我想這個都是沒有辦法去預期的那這一次的大地震事實上本席這邊也要肯定我們交通部的一個相關的應變因為包括在搶修因為像清水斷橋這個橋斷了我們可以馬上原有的舊橋來做一個"},{"start":6303.746,"end":6332.892,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6333.112,"end":6348.651,"text":"那這一次我們也看到就是說台鐵在這個落實的預警系統有發揮功能就是說在地震發生的那一天就是有一個太魯閣號因為預警系統所以它可以趕快停下來避免這個落實去"},{"start":6349.271,"end":6371.593,"text":"就是造成這個災害、就是意外可是之後相隔應該是一個禮拜就發生了普悠瑪號因為擦撞到這個落石而出軌這個也是造成乘客真的是驚魂未定所以我們真的我們也不能說每次都是靠運氣因為我們還是要盡好做好這個"},{"start":6372.333,"end":6374.674,"text":" ﹝在台鐵沿線現在有26處的落石預警告警系統,後期還有38處。"},{"start":6394.104,"end":6418.387,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6418.387,"end":6441.254,"text":" ﹏"},{"start":6441.334,"end":6469.532,"text":"我想交通便利都是每一個鄉親的一個期待也是需求不過再怎麼樣的就是便利我們還是要以安全為首要所以就是說就現有的一個交通路線不管是鐵公路的一個安全的一個維護或者是預警系統的一個加強建制我想這個是必要的包括年代的就是說未來一個新屁公路的一個安全性我想這個也是我們"},{"start":6470.312,"end":6491.201,"text":"一定要是首要考量的。好,我們會持續努力。好,謝謝陳委員。接下來我們陳雪生召委。好,謝謝主席。是不是請部長。"},{"start":6497.547,"end":6524.599,"text":"早安部長我再說一次齁因為剛才在主席台上面這個這一次花蓮的震災我們新台馬倫你看我們馬祖啟農屋喔是是是啟農屋啊我們還是以救災為先啦齁那麼這個新台馬倫就開往花蓮但花蓮我們馬祖那邊一團亂啦所以說真的我們真的要謝謝"},{"start":6526.042,"end":6549.69,"text":"連江縣的網線還有所有鄉親的體諒帶了200多輛車子回來400多個人是不是解決了一個大問題所以我在講說這個船我也跟航港局業局長講你像這種船做了以後,棚位也要做船金門有誤的時候這個船也可以持往金門救援"},{"start":6551.696,"end":6575.43,"text":"我們那船也可以駛往那邊去救援啊。所以這很重要,因為金門馬祖常常起霧嘛。那樸屋有問題你看,花蓮有問題我們就去了。所以這個機制很好啦。對我們地方確實帶來不便。但是我覺得王縣長跟鄉親討論啦,我們基於大愛,所以同胞愛啊。"},{"start":6576.297,"end":6593.864,"text":"我們船開具我們借座小船到台北來我真的非常謝謝王縣長還有陳昭偉我們海關局打一個電話他馬上同意而且那是在親民輸運的時候是人滿滿的我就非常感謝就是說"},{"start":6594.884,"end":6618.264,"text":"然後馬上就到花東來輸運。我非常非常謝謝。真的在過去我跟縣長、陳委員我們覺得你們都是非常的大功、願意來協助各縣市。非常感謝。所以我們鄉親當然也非常謝謝我們鄉親,他們也都諒解政府的作為了。所以從這個地方"},{"start":6619.335,"end":6646.183,"text":"我們有一條臺馬之星你知道嗎?臺馬之星這條船做的時候確實有問題。把牛的心臟、兩萬噸的船的心臟裝在那個豬的心臟裡面。你看那個豬能夠活得下去嗎?豬活不下去啦。所以臺馬之星還會有狀況。我跟你講不如能夠淘汰、及時淘汰。"},{"start":6648.581,"end":6660.588,"text":"那我們台馬輪不是有賣了一點錢嗎?賣了一點錢你交通部可以考慮啊?賣了錢再加上我們再給一點錢啊?再去做一條不要那麼大的,為什麼?"},{"start":6662.382,"end":6681.079,"text":"因為常常起霧嘛。常常起霧兩邊可以對開嘛。當然這裡面要投入一些經費。但是為了解決離島交通的問題。金門、澎湖都有4系的機場啊。我們到現在連3系都還不是啊。快有了。尤其快的沒錯啊。南竿機場顯像還生了齁。那個側風確實有問題齁。南竿機場已經無法改善了。"},{"start":6689.261,"end":6710.313,"text":"我請問部長,北韓伊朗改建案在哪裡案子?現在國號會已經送到行政院3月28送過去,現在就等約定來合定,我覺得應該很快行政院我去找卻找不到啊,行政院我去找找不到秘書處已經也上層了"},{"start":6716.1,"end":6743.745,"text":"案子應該我在判斷在政委那邊應該的因為我也為了鄭文燦副院長也沒有啊那鄭文燦副院長沒看到那院長更看不到那我在總質詢的時候院長答覆我部長你也在場嘛他跟我講什麼時間我要求兩個禮拜那你跟院長一樣講一個月嘛這一個月時間到啦院長講話不能不算話"},{"start":6745.588,"end":6767.827,"text":"院長可以講話不算話嗎?陳建源院長我跟趙偉豹現在看起來在北根機場、後建都支持國防會同意啊我了解一下政委那邊有沒有什麼意見我再了解一下現在還有什麼意見?我了解一下我不知道我在上一次選舉之前院長說已經核定了啊核定了後來"},{"start":6769.056,"end":6792.724,"text":"這一次選完以後我又問院長,院長說原來還在院裡面啦,還在院裡面那院長都已經答應啦而且我要求說兩個禮拜很像你們講一個月吧,一個月時間也到啦陳建律院長講話算不算話不算話也沒關係,你講清楚啊我來開個記者會啊,院長講話不算話"},{"start":6797.857,"end":6826.287,"text":"對,因為他主要程序還沒有打印章有影像有錄有文字稿這不可以亂來吧我來這個也來幫你追蹤一下追蹤我已經打三次電話給部長了拜託你追蹤你追到哪裡?上次是追國報會現在國報已經出來了我天天都在追我是每天每一時每一秒也有人也有相信講說北竿機場的改建"},{"start":6827.11,"end":6855.715,"text":"可能會影響到一些經濟發生的問題我跟你講不要急嘛你先把北京機場先把它改建到核定我也問公主委啦我說橋勒世西是我們國內頂尖的這個工程顧問公司欸那他現在已經標案出去了請英國的英國的地方第三方的公正人士再來評估這個造橋有沒有困難度"},{"start":6858.234,"end":6885.728,"text":"他算是好意啦工作也算是好意那我們賴準總統也打電話給工作也好幾次也在關心這個案可能你不知道但是我告訴你我的層次比你還高啦我知道的事情你還不知道我說拜託部長雖然你快卸任了我們很晚熄啦不是說今天就要開告別式我希望不要告別好不好我們永遠的朋友"},{"start":6887.284,"end":6916.375,"text":"我拜託就是說在這個部分請您繼續幫我們努力尤其橋啊當然先做橋嘛是不是橋如果合定先做橋橋如果沒有合定的話我們再來跟居民討論看看這裡面因為做橋有300個人起碼進場嘛那觀光客的話不可能到了南竿你不到北竿這不可能一定也會到北竿去消費嘛所以居民不需要那個你北竿的居民以後要到"},{"start":6917.315,"end":6934.143,"text":"南韓坐船造成他交通的不便,我們也可以有方案出來嘛,配套坐司。不要錢嘛對不對,在這五年坐船到南韓來,我們政府來出嘛。這都不是問題啦,都不是問題啦。"},{"start":6935.649,"end":6959.059,"text":"當然在適當時機我也會去馬鞍珠考察的時候有請交通部,有請部長、民航局長、行政司長相關單位也會到那邊去跟我們鄉親、北韓的鄉親做一個完整的說明因為現在橋還沒有決定嘛你去說明都是空的現在我去說明也不對民航局去說明也不對"},{"start":6960.47,"end":6985.204,"text":"因為你大橋要定案以後才能夠有完整的說明所以坊間一直在講說這樣那樣都是隨便講親善共共所以我才沒有及時的去回應我們老百姓我想你把大橋案子定案做還是不做?如果做的話怎麼回事?不做的話怎麼回事?"},{"start":6986.277,"end":7011.434,"text":"因為畢竟中央政府對這個德政我們是非常感謝另外講到今天的主題雪水雪水做了20年那國六國六要做多少年我是不知道但是你今天不做明天就會後悔啊剛才早上很多委員講了哎呀中央山脈有什麼東西啊落塵啊或者有什麼斷層啊有水啊什麼的"},{"start":7012.64,"end":7037.931,"text":"我們雪山隧道沒有嗎?雪山隧道也有嘛。可以轉彎啦,可以繞道嘛,很多的方式。是不是?你今天不做,明天就會後悔。台中到花蓮可以找那麼近的一條路。我們他做20年雪隧做20年,我們可以做30年啦,做40年啦。我們是看不到起碼我們幫下一代著想。你起碼先有個可行性的評估。"},{"start":7038.547,"end":7067.115,"text":"你地質的測量等等都可以把這些配套全部用上去嘛而且我們副國務級委員也沒有講說今天馬上要做啊也沒有講說多少錢啊是不是評估多少錢也不知道啊那有人講說是八千億是好幾倍我們一年的工程金費你分30年50年就沒有那麼多錢了嘛所以我覺得交通部啊還有我們一些執政黨的同仁啊委員啊"},{"start":7068.369,"end":7089.958,"text":"不要站在很主觀的方向去想,交給專業的專家有沒有去做評估,去做評估是比較有道理的。部長你覺得勒?我基本上我剛才談到我們從這個正向來思考這件事,但是就是說剛才談到的我們現在已經在做路廊踏桿跟地址調查"},{"start":7090.939,"end":7112.606,"text":"我們在這個調查裡面會把重要課題把它找出來然後就進入可行性那我們是覺得說這個是一個很重大的工程對花蓮也很重要但是它必須很嚴肅很專業的做一個評估不是說用一個條例直接把它定下來就像這個馬祖大橋一樣也做到綜合規劃中間也跑這麼"},{"start":7114.827,"end":7135.874,"text":"已經證明對交通部公路起來講已經證明可行了阿只是現在在合作有我有問過公主委阿世襲還不夠嗎你還要拿到英國去他說英國的公司也會找世襲去討論同樣道理就是說我個人是持正面但是我覺得他要經過類似馬祖大有這種評估然後我們就加速進行那當然"},{"start":7136.994,"end":7148.902,"text":"這次在這個台八的狀況這麼脆弱我們是覺得在這一個腳步齁我們可以加快應該再加快來進行的我認為新的革命上還好我會就這方面因為"},{"start":7151.904,"end":7169.069,"text":"賴院長他也很關心這個大橋,他去馬祖也答應我他要做這個大橋,他要做不是不做,賴準總統他要做不是不做,所以我覺得希望蠻大的"},{"start":7169.537,"end":7188.46,"text":"我希望是大橋跟機場我們一起來做。把馬阿祖的未來,我站在馬阿祖的高度、馬阿祖的視野來看這個問題。這才是永續的一個經營之道。為了後代子孫。我不管我看得到看不到。好不好,我們共同努力好不好。好,謝謝。謝謝趙委員。"},{"start":7190.302,"end":7213.774,"text":"好謝謝我們陳雪生召委接下來請我們李明哲委員啊魯明哲委員抱歉我那對沿道的都比較緊張啦好謝謝主席有請我們交通部王部長王部長請"},{"start":7218.3,"end":7237.052,"text":"市長,首先表達我個人對於國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例表達支持。我覺得這是表達我們一個地方建設的一個決心。因為在很多一個重大建設每次拿到桌上排序的時候,我們在花動很多一個交通建設,可能因為價錢又貴,"},{"start":7239.534,"end":7263.776,"text":"公程又有困難所以永遠被擺在後面所以我就展現決心啦第二個齁我自己覺得長年來花東人回家的路型定義都被我們定義完畢了花東人回家就是他的責任就要去台灣頭看看跟基隆鄉親打打招呼要不然就到台灣尾跟屏東鄉親打打招呼再回家北鬧南鬧那為什麼我們在"},{"start":7266.278,"end":7294.085,"text":"所謂的建設的一個工法科技不管是在歐洲的大陸或者對岸的大陸在大山大水他們有多少地質比這個更困難的都可以做好所以我覺得如果國道六號東延花蓮的話我覺得讓花蓮人重新定義花東人重新定義他們一條回家的路所以我個人是表達支持那我想這個因為時間不多了"},{"start":7295.384,"end":7312.278,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":7312.358,"end":7340.681,"text":"一五年開始那時候就是邊坡落石一個警告系統當時要說26處結果我們到我上任到我上任的時候那時候問而原本預計的騎乘也延期了一直到2021年的4月2號太魯閣事件因為車從邊坡滑下去了大家要重新開始檢討加速把26個地方能夠完工"},{"start":7341.542,"end":7366.719,"text":"那我們再看到4月3號4月3號大地震的時候我看到你這個董事長局長變董事長董事長有報告嘛這一次發揮了功效阻止了列車進入落石路段26個這個告警系統有幾個發布有幾個有反應要跟委員報告0403這一天那個時間點我們是有一個系統一個嗎"},{"start":7371.562,"end":7399.888,"text":"二十六個裡面有一個發現了欸一個就很重要喔我講真的齁那也這個引發或者促使了列車停下來嘛對速零二停下來這就很有用啊那我們本來想說問題大致解決了齁因為哪裡危險也是尊重你們那個專業你們選了二十六個最危險的地方然後也做好了但是七天之後我們不用嘛剛剛我們這個軍縣委員也說了齁而又撞擊到"},{"start":7400.948,"end":7402.31,"text":"我請教一下"},{"start":7417.771,"end":7436.479,"text":"你現在這個26個是不夠嘛齁那你們現在講說那個地方因為沒有不是我26個當時的告警系統可是你的自己的工會啊勞工董事啊還是工會啊秘書長啊他自己啊秘書啊他也說啊他說其實事實就在"},{"start":7437.199,"end":7452.672,"text":"地震當天啦因為你是4月10號才撞到了但地震當天就在距離現場就是你所謂的不是那26個重點區就已經發生了落實了然後2019年的時候幾年前也發生了落實"},{"start":7454.053,"end":7480.751,"text":"那這個部分那這樣我就請教你一下你現在偵測那就不夠就不夠有一些地方發現也是危險就不夠那我們再針對這個糾結下去沒有用啊你現在要偵測38處是不是這個計畫那現在的進度如何經費找到沒有有經費都已經有找到我們現在38處我們預計會全部在明年的年終會完成"},{"start":7481.371,"end":7496.904,"text":"明年的年終會完成嗎?現階段我們會在6月完成發包然後我們計畫在9月我們就有實體的阻攔跟一處示範性的告警會完成"},{"start":7498.005,"end":7525.592,"text":"這個你的地點的一個評估我相信除了專家之外你第一線的公路、公班我相信今年累月他最了解了我們希望26加38未來總共64個我們整個台鐵高風險路段真的是希望能夠保平安然後最後我鐵道局請教一下就一分鐘就好了這是因為去年的五月"},{"start":7527.062,"end":7543.376,"text":"我們在終結他的因為有施工的吊被墜落嘛發生了一死十四傷那我們在就這個月啦我們桃園捷運、桃捷運發現還好那個比較小的施行鋼就掉進去軌道了那當然造成了一個跳電"},{"start":7544.937,"end":7568.245,"text":"現在他們也在想他們也在想說這個義務入侵的一個系統因為原本是這樣啦因為台鐵要經過甚至高鐵要經過很多地形複雜的一個區塊那一般的捷運大部分都是在軌道已經比較穩定的一個區塊所以在早期全台灣的捷運都沒有裝這個那現在我想鐵道局還是部長部長你要講一下吧"},{"start":7568.985,"end":7597.716,"text":"因為全臺灣的一個捷運齁他們現在也希望對於義務入侵軌道能夠裝監測偵測系統這個部分這個交通部跟鐵道局可以支持嗎?這個可以支持嗎?支持他們?看他們提出計畫啦就是說這個技術呃委員長這部分是不是局長說的這個根文報告齁因為捷運系統現在所做的義務偵測方向是朝向在車上裝"},{"start":7598.669,"end":7625.28,"text":"像我們小客車這一種所謂的固態雷達就車載的車載的是不是那這一部分呢我們曾經洽詢過全世界相關的這個主要的系統商跟顧問目前在這個部分技術上是不穩定的他的可靠度還沒有辦法達到非常穩定的一個狀態非常容易造成誤告警所以上次在談這個案子的時候這樣的齁"},{"start":7626.7,"end":7655.046,"text":"現在全台灣的捷運公司他都有提出這樣的一個需求我希望鐵道局是有回應的如果技術是車載的一個系統或者特定在施工風險區塊在軌道放置這個部分我希望你們能夠來協助好不好好謝謝好休息五分鐘負委員對不起啊要解決部長一號跟二號的問題"},{"start":7658.646,"end":7672.983,"text":"你趕快去喔,等一下又是一兩個鐘頭你趕快去一下你腎臟沒那麼好你腎臟好到越南早就被割掉了"},{"start":8013.442,"end":8042.431,"text":"好,各位請就座好,現在我們請傅崐萁總召花蓮主席各位立委同仁各位媒體女士先生交通部王部長及各位官員我們再一次回顧"},{"start":8044.141,"end":8067.297,"text":"我想從20年前不斷地在立法院不斷地呼籲什麼時候才能夠給2300萬人都有一條安全回家的路但是我們很汗顏啊到即時今日台灣早就是一個已開發的國家我們並不是啊孟加拉更不是一所皮牙"},{"start":8068.581,"end":8097.763,"text":"一個已開發國家台灣島就這麼小但所有的基礎建設都還沒有來完成而且幾十年來在立法院不斷的呼籲當然大家都有各種不同的看法我們都尊重但是道路新建完成就是給人走的為什麼一個國家有兩種以上的國度這個是我們一直很好奇每天大家出門都希望平安的回家"},{"start":8099.653,"end":8128.548,"text":"何忍看東台灣的鄉親讓家人們在這樣的道路上行走而且又是在歐亞板塊跟菲律賓板塊的擠壓之下有這麼多的天災地變颱風來就從東岸來地震又是主要的地震帶國家早就一套長遠因應的辦法在這個地方早就應該來興建這些道路"},{"start":8129.81,"end":8154.611,"text":"我們再次的強調在這一次的0403的大地震當中蘇花蓋所有的路廊都是完好如初最安全的而在台八線中橫台八線能夠幸免於難的都是躲在這個民粹道裡面"},{"start":8156.078,"end":8180.871,"text":"所以為什麼我們國家的國民還要忍受這樣的一個怠惰的政府忽略對這樣的一個地區早就應該做好的基礎建設大家很難想像這不是交通問題交通平權人命無價為什麼要讓我們人民在暴險當中"},{"start":8182.901,"end":8206.492,"text":"而且這一次也包括國外的觀光客也不惜得罹難還有各縣市的好朋友來到花蓮都碰到台九縣的崩山台八縣的崩山我們看一看這段影片到底為什麼我們的國家還可以容忍這樣的生活環境在台灣我們來看一下"},{"start":8213.094,"end":8239.997,"text":"從德台九線的崩山是這麼可怕這裡面有多少人在第一時間就被活埋了開始倒車逃命梳化公路"},{"start":8264.53,"end":8288.896,"text":"聽見警報聲響、駕駛油門吹了起、躲進隧道逃命。直播差點沒命,因為下一秒眼前景象讓車上的人不敢置信。前方道路全坍塌、隨後滿天煙塵、席捲而來。行車記錄器全被土石覆蓋、伸手不見五指的恐怖景象,有如世界末日般,駕駛前後遭到煽動。"},{"start":8315.151,"end":8342.364,"text":"因為我們的家人每天回家跟出門都要走這樣的路我們的同理心、將心比心在哪裡?將心比心在哪裡?可以,可以了,把它關掉"},{"start":8345.686,"end":8368.816,"text":"所以我要請教一下為什麼台灣還有這樣的人民在這種環境當中來生活我們大家的同理心在哪裡?台巴線還能走嗎?新的路廊早就應該要做了讓大家都能夠平平安安在台灣成為一個共同的生活圈所以我這裡先表達請部長"},{"start":8373.937,"end":8400.383,"text":"請部長本席請教一下2020年3月4號就在這個委員會我們通過了國道六號的這個探勘啟動2020年3月4號就通過了主決議在委員會林佳龍部長敬表尊重也支持在本委員會通過以後"},{"start":8402.177,"end":8426.354,"text":"現在路廊探勘到什麼時候可以完成?各位報告目前是去年年底完成委託115那我是覺得在這一次我的確看到整個台北市委託金額是多少錢?兩千多少?一千多少?兩千萬左右一千八百萬一千八百萬路廊就可以探勘完成嗎?"},{"start":8430.037,"end":8456.276,"text":"什麼時候可以完成路廊的探勘?地質研究。現在是一一五五年底嗎?二零二六年年底。好。北齊再一次強調二零二零年年初通過的決議要到二零二六年年底才能夠完成地質的研究還要再來可行性再加個五年八年"},{"start":8458.666,"end":8486.75,"text":"那個都已經不曉得改朝換代多少次了。我想交通部就是用這樣的心態在面對這樣的事情。我們希望部長這是留給兒孫走的路。他要去韓院長跟陳建仁院長說完工的時候我們已經不在位子上但是給代代兒孫一條安全的路來走。"},{"start":8487.967,"end":8508.556,"text":"我想這樣的心情韓院長的心情陳建榮院長也表示支持我們希望交通部所屬單位能夠盡快完成這個事情這不只是安全的問題更是人道的問題所以不要想說再來完成什麼地質調查報告可行性研究"},{"start":8510.612,"end":8533.272,"text":"曾文燦副院長在跟我討論這個事情他說你看我們現在環島高鐵我們不是不做啊我們要做啊台北延伸到宜蘭要做啊高雄延伸到屏東要做啊行政院要做啊我說什麼時候輪到行政院來做你用BOT的案子就可以了嘛我說台灣高鐵就是BOT啊你為什麼政府又突然跳進來自己要來做"},{"start":8535.174,"end":8535.474,"text":"拜託民間做"},{"start":8553.343,"end":8573.473,"text":"這很簡單的事情。我們希望這是不要再空耗下去。而且國道六號打通的事情在條例寫得很清楚。促進民間參與。不管是國內的BOT還是國際的BOT。人家來做地質的研究調查、路廊的三竿可信研究都不會比我們的政府要快10倍。所以我們還是誠意的來面對這個問題。"},{"start":8578.393,"end":8599.071,"text":"部長,可以嗎?我想蘇阿安這次有提及看到台九線跟台八線的脆弱我想蘇阿安121我們現在環評事業底就送進去就121把它完成了那這個國道六號的東延事業上上次委員談到VOT我也跟局長談過了"},{"start":8600.632,"end":8621.428,"text":"另外就是說縮短事實上路郎踏刊跟地質調查是不是跟後面的可行性兩個時間把它縮短我剛才跟局長講有些地方是因為有些項目是的確在可行性研究室可以做的我這部分會跟局長來討論的確我覺得在這一次整個這一個台八的脆弱的確"},{"start":8623.309,"end":8641.077,"text":"讓這個延伸案本身更是有它的必要性我自己有這樣的感覺但是剛才談到這些行政的程序因為行政程序有的在處理的過程中政府的行政效率"},{"start":8641.937,"end":8667.75,"text":"二零二零年三月四號通過二零二六年年底才會完成前後竟然要花六年九個月的時間一個路線地質調查要六年九個月唉我覺得齁部長啊交給民間來做啦數效率絕對比政府好啦我想啊不要用所謂的行政程序來卡關"},{"start":8670.278,"end":8681.207,"text":"蘇花案到現在201616年就應該要做的事情到現在2024年蘇花案的環評還被退建還要求補建八年了"},{"start":8683.154,"end":8709.11,"text":"今天看到這樣的一個路況我們大家拿出良心來面對我們的國人我跟委員再說明一個重染是BOT的案子你的相關的資料也要給投資廠商包括剛剛所談到的這些地質的一些相關資料並不是說突然跳到BOT去因為他對他也不了解國外的這種案件很多"},{"start":8712.892,"end":8739.565,"text":"你去看一下台灣高鐵當時怎麼興建的決標以後開始規劃開始處理85年到87年88年什麼時候動工什麼時候決標你回去看一下這些資料我們再一次的要表達政府的心態是什麼有沒有好好用良心來看待人民"},{"start":8740.438,"end":8741.759,"text":"接下來我們請林佩祥委員花蓮"},{"start":8775.202,"end":8776.808,"text":"好,謝謝主席,請部長王部長"},{"start":8783.297,"end":8805.435,"text":"您好部長我個人是對這個國道六號東移我是贊成的尤其是我上禮拜天特地跑去花蓮了一趟當我看到那個橋墩都已經被那個地震震到的時候其實我就知道更不用敢講說天王星啊其他的狀況我就知道這整個花蓮對他們來說"},{"start":8807.056,"end":8836.356,"text":"這一次的地震雖然當然說很多人都把這次地震跟921拿來比但是相對來講這次的地震的強度對花蓮來講其實是相當影響非常深遠的所以說我不贊成那個國道六號的東移主要的原因在當初我們沒有在404月3號之前我們是因為希望能夠幫助東部台灣的發展但是現在的話其實有一個更迫切的東西也就叫做救人"},{"start":8837.036,"end":8857.591,"text":"人家說要致富先修路那要救人可能也要先修路而我會剛剛我在那個研究室裡面聽了我們不少之前委員的發言我發現一件事就是說我們針對這案子先不要預設立場那是不是能夠比較實質的才要先執行那才知道是否能夠可行"},{"start":8858.331,"end":8882.796,"text":"甚至這樣講我剛剛在我研究室是因為要開一個協調會針對基隆的一個八斗子凸堤碼頭可是八斗子凸堤碼頭如果去年或前在疫情前開始做的話可能只需要八千萬這經濟部漁業署的案子但是現在我問的時候就直接要到一億兩千萬以上也就是說整個這個多出50%的費用因為原物料的上漲"},{"start":8883.536,"end":8901.688,"text":"那同樣的我們現在看到國道六號東宜這個案子很有可能我們今天不趕快進行那明天或是明後年再過三年搞不好又因為又因為說有物料上漲包括現在不只是疫情之後我們遇到惡霧戰爭又遇到以壓戰爭所以說我會覺得這個東西盡快進行會比較好"},{"start":8905.47,"end":8926.543,"text":"那另外一方面呢我也必須幫我們花蓮的鄉親這次的難民講他們幫他們請願啦因為那天我有去的時候有特地有一個有一個有一個這個算是不能講記者會而是說說明會請他們幾位這些他們的那個災民代表出來講話他們提出了好幾個訴求我記得比較主要的五個"},{"start":8927.463,"end":8950.93,"text":"那第一個是他們很希望因為花蓮主要是以觀光業為主他們就很希望說我們交通部可以站出來因為交通部不是只有管交通還要管觀光能夠的話幫我們的幫這些未來他們來旅客的旅遊的工具來做出實質上的補貼像說里程數補貼啦之類讓他們旅遊的人會比較有意願在交通工具上面來到花蓮"},{"start":8951.85,"end":8978.384,"text":"那第二個是尤其是他們大客車因為現在花蓮的觀光業基本上全面斷吹的時候他們大客車他們就很擔心說這個因為當上前兩好不容易才熬過疫情那現在他們大客車很多時候很需要說這個時候跟比照疫情的時候來去做補貼甚至做出免稅像說今年免牌照稅燃料稅之類的希望說交通部可以體恤說花蓮這邊大客車有這樣的狀況"},{"start":8980.385,"end":8995.167,"text":"第三點他們有提出來是說是不是能夠在這邊建起交通部可以研究所謂的複合式的鐵公路的聯營讓說旅客可以過來花蓮的時候比較方便那第四點是有關民宿業者"},{"start":8995.788,"end":9022.27,"text":"民宿業者他們也是有提到說因為疫情才剛過我們有一個很好的先例不管是地震還是還是還是還是疫情都算是一種另類的都算是天災的一種那在這個情況之下呢民宿是不是可以比照疫情來去做出補助甚至他們講的比較具體的說能不能說在這半在這一年之內可不可以說他們當然是業者提出來說一年一個民宿可以補助五萬一個月補助五萬塊之類的"},{"start":9023.251,"end":9043.586,"text":"那是交通部跟中央政府的權限但是我會提出來是他們當下直接跟我講的第五個就是說他們有提到說國內外的觀光旅客來花蓮的時候是不是可以比照SARS而不是疫情是比照SARS的時候來去做出補助因為現在他們就直接提了現在很多人不敢去花蓮"},{"start":9044.326,"end":9073.376,"text":"因為花蓮現在的狀況其實蠻讓人家擔心什麼時候餘震不知道而且我們也清楚我們也清楚知道聽說太魯閣國家公園需要復育到本來的狀況就可能需要至少五年以上的時間才有可能把一些步道基本步道把它修好所以這些事情其實是他們這些災民直接向我反映的那我會希望說基於我們在過去兩年對不起過去三年的疫情時間我們常聽到一句話叫做同島一命"},{"start":9074.136,"end":9098.241,"text":"那其實現在是全台灣其實都是台灣人都是中華民國的國民是台灣人全體台灣人一起幫助花蓮的時候了而中央政府尤其是交通部就是主管交通建設也是主管觀光建設這時候應該做出領頭羊的姿態然後來幫助這次花蓮度過這個難關而甚至這樣講大破大立這個"},{"start":9100.001,"end":9118.428,"text":"國道六號東宜可以把危機化為轉機,然後實質上把台灣東部好好發展,促進整個區域平衡,甚至把花蓮變成所謂亞洲的後花園。我想請部長,這就是請部長把我剛剛講的話盡量拿回去考量。好。我要回了嗎?好。"},{"start":9119.228,"end":9138.658,"text":"我想很謝謝林委員對花蓮的關心。事實上我們最近在政務站副委員長已經在召開。他是整體跨部會的。剛才你談到的這個比如說牌照稅、棄藍費等等的也有在討論。那棄藍費是交通部管的。所以我們這部分是我們在處理。"},{"start":9139.378,"end":9153.994,"text":"那剛才談到那個聯票也討論就鐵路跟我們台灣關巴或是台灣好行這種套票這個在處理另外我跟委員報告現在公共署已經提出有三波的這種初步方案"},{"start":9154.855,"end":9170.047,"text":"就是說第一個包括禮數月的融資還有利息的一個補貼還有相關的這個稅件的減免這第一波第二波就是他們會把現在受災受災戶友的住在外面讓他去住旅館做一些補貼"},{"start":9171.088,"end":9187.234,"text":"第二個第三個就是光彎產業的這個振興方案這個包括自由行跟團客他現在都提出方案但是我希望這個光屬再把它寫完整一點那這個整個在行政院是一個大的package在討論各位提出來"},{"start":9187.714,"end":9188.794,"text":"接下來我們黃健豪委員花蓮"},{"start":9221.226,"end":9246.982,"text":"好,謝謝我們主席喔。那我們一樣先請部長。好,王部長。王議員好。嗨,部長好。這個相見日子不多了喔。但是我們這個施政還是延續的啦。首先當然是要來請教一下我一開始來談這個地震之後我想這個台鐵415車次在4月10號的時候一樣有遇到這個擦撞的這個落實的問題。那當然這個"},{"start":9249.923,"end":9271.903,"text":" ﹝討論﹞"},{"start":9272.148,"end":9290.262,"text":"為什麼特別提到公路局啊這個是貴部公路局在提供這個蘇花改、蘇花安的相關的這個報告裡面提到台九線160k路段的落實區是在這個蘇花安的評估的時候基本上公路局認為這一段是有落實的風險"},{"start":9291.303,"end":9307.462,"text":"但是台鐵公司卻覺得這一段沒有這個是非屬落實高風險路段那本席今天提出來是因為這個同屬交通部我們一直希望說政府的橫向聯繫要做好那當然如果今天事前橫向聯繫有做好那我想"},{"start":9308.274,"end":9337.193,"text":"你們就不會說這邊是這個有的一般公共局覺得落實區結果台鐵覺得這邊是非屬落實高層路段這邊都是同樣都是政府的報告啊都出自同一個部啊還沒有跨部會哦還是點部裡面的哦所以我就講說就是拜託一下就我覺得這種事情不要再發生了因為其實自從2021年泰魯格號事件之後全大家全台灣都很關心說關於這個軌道運輸的部分的安全性在偵測機制上面能夠更加落實"},{"start":9338.654,"end":9354.844,"text":"更加的去執行這個案子。那半話說今天提到的落實區的問題部長你可以回應一下未來在評估是不是高風險路段落實高風險路段的時候你們還會依據什麼樣的標準各單位之間後續有沒有整合的作業可以執行"},{"start":9355.484,"end":9376.137,"text":"是,很謝謝黃委員的指教,就是說的確這一次在台鐵自己的邊坡他覺得是沒有問題的可是在上面的這個台九的部分公務局是他等於在樹花庵的這個範圍內那從這一個公路的邊坡調到台鐵的軌道在過去他們的確沒有思考到這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":9379.139,"end":9391.913,"text":"由於花蓮這一次有800多次的這個阻震跟移震所以未來這個地方比如說從公路的東西會不會掉到鐵路是很重要所以我已經有跟兩個局長談了我們下一階段是做38處的這個告警系統"},{"start":9395.196,"end":9411.049,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":9411.192,"end":9431.24,"text":"好部長謝謝就希望說這個人民的安全是非常重要因為像你們現在提到說這個正在進行中的鐵路遍佈維護與管理規範草案這個是2023年12月29號的提出來也就去年年底提出來了但是這個草案其實也是源自於當初這個泰魯格號出事之後我想才會提出這個相關的規範草案"},{"start":9431.9,"end":9454.247,"text":"那想問一下這個目前的進度到哪裡因為你2021年發生之後到底2023年才提出年底才提出中間隔了兩年多三年現在2024年已經4月了很快要月底了所以這個草案到底什麼時候才會審議完成然後送進立法院裡面這個是不頒現在交通部在複審我們要加速來審查複審多加速"},{"start":9458.655,"end":9460.937,"text":" 你們每次都說加速啊,兩年多了。"},{"start":9477.534,"end":9502.392,"text":"好,因為他有那個專家審查的機制啦。我教數了。我來教數。好啦,沒關係啦。這個不為難你喔。我是希望盡快,因為如果再來一次喔,我想這個邊坡如果沒有維護好,如果再發生意外,其實這都是人命的損失喔。我要真的要誠摯來拜託。好,那接下來來談到我們這個今天主題要談到國道六號東延花蓮的問題。我想先跟部長確認一個消息喔,確認一個事情。這一次的這個花蓮的這個地震問題,"},{"start":9503.953,"end":9515.819,"text":"在沿線都有很多的損傷。那我想問一下,隧道裡面有沒有傳出災情?蘇阿改的部分沒有。蘇阿改沒有。就是蘇阿改的隧道沒有災情。那那個中橫?"},{"start":9517.447,"end":9544.696,"text":"蘇花公…那個中環這段有沒有…隧道內部有沒有處理在一起?好,為什麼特別提這個?就是其實今天為什麼特別提到國道六號東延花蓮要做這個路廊其實為什麼要就在這個事件之後我們發現隧道按照現代的工程它可能相對於直接遇到落石隧道裡面其實它相對來講是比較能夠保護這個用路安全的"},{"start":9545.666,"end":9553.996,"text":"那基本上我想問一下到底在這個能高隧道以這個能高隧道為例技術上工程面上能不能做到"},{"start":9554.721,"end":9580.379,"text":"他主要齁,能夠說應該是事其實沒有純單純就工程面技術面上我們先不管環評這些行政流程我先瞭解一下就現代的科技現代的工程技術做這樣子的隧道是可不可行的做不做得到跟委員報告齁那在一般的做的一個隧道的話齁那沒有說打不通的但是就是說他一個到底要怎麼來做齁他必須要有審慎的一個思考"},{"start":9582.885,"end":9607.306,"text":"我先舉個例子1996年瑞士在做阿爾賓山脈的聖戈達基縣隧道1996年就開始要做了1998、1999開始執行2016年通車但是回想一下其實阿爾賓山它也是有地震的它有地震的問題那它在上個世紀末它就在技術上覺得可以做也就做了"},{"start":9607.987,"end":9636.409,"text":"到前幾年來把它通車但時間起來正式的通車所以我才接著問說以台灣的這個地質環境跟這個工程面來講技術上能不能做到那當然過程裡面要去評估要去做這些事情我都我都可以理解我知道說人家這個幾年20年前30年前的技術上就評估可以做那到了現在而且又加上我們花蓮的這震災再加上我剛提到的隧道裡面確實在這一次的震災當中發現所有的可能"},{"start":9636.749,"end":9656.834,"text":" ﹖"},{"start":9658.696,"end":9676.671,"text":"我沒有反對啦,我正向來進行這件事情那剛才談到的這種能高隧道最重要就是說你的路廊你要怎麼挖這個隧道你當然不能經過那種什麼延爆的地區所以我們現在正在做這個地址的調查找路廊也是這個原因"},{"start":9677.591,"end":9701.266,"text":"那我個人是覺得這個整個東延案我們就加速來進行但是我是希望是循我們原來的程序加速進行好部長謝謝我才要強調25年前這個歐洲就做了打通這個隧道長達60公里的這個道路那我想這個台灣應該在工程面技術面科學上是可行的好謝謝好謝謝黃建豪委員"},{"start":9707.759,"end":9725.37,"text":"在此先作宣告本日有委員提出臨時提案一個案稍後在所有登記委員發言完畢以後隨即處理臨時提案另外後面工作人員聽到"},{"start":9727.919,"end":9750.605,"text":"現在12點20分發便當好不好我們邊質詢邊吃便當因為不是12點20就結束下面繼續我們繼續開會還要審查逐條審查所以方便你們就方便沒關係好不好那現在請我們許副葵委員發言許副葵委員發言"},{"start":9760.053,"end":9782.034,"text":"謝謝主席。有請王部長。部長請。委員部長午安。感謝部長這段期間對於屏東建設的支持跟關心。那也歡迎部長午二零之後來屏東去討啦。謝謝。我想請教部長就是我想"},{"start":9783.055,"end":9807.776,"text":"平東這個長期有幾個重大的交通建設那我們都一直在叫起綱來做啦針對可行性評估綜合規劃環評照這個程序來進行那我想這也是交通部給我們的一個答案那當然今天我們針對副委員提出這個特別的一個條例來講我想我比較個人比較擔心的是"},{"start":9810.959,"end":9815.024,"text":"這個之前我在質詢的時候一直問到部長這個是不是一條捷徑"},{"start":9817.112,"end":9840.224,"text":"該不會用這個方式來改觀我們剛剛所謂的程序的問題?這樣大家都跳過這個程序,那是不是每個立委都可以來這樣子提出這樣的要求?這個請部長回答。是的確,像委員提這個過去不敢在縣政府爭取的平安快速道路,那現在可行也通過了,就準備往下走了。高鐵的部分也一樣嘛,現在到綜合規劃、環評。"},{"start":9842.125,"end":9861.496,"text":" 那我們是覺得說第一個當然是全國一致有一個嚴肅專業的評估這個很重要所以我們是覺得現在在國道六號東延已經在進行中了那我剛才也跟我們局長談在這個地質調查跟路上踏竿跟可行性時間把它縮短"},{"start":9862.617,"end":9880.975,"text":"我們現在等於是這個也全力在進行中那只有經過這個很嚴肅的評估以後確定可行那未來才能確保一個安全的路所以我們是強調這個程序不是一個很環雜的程序是一個專業理性的一個評估的程序"},{"start":9881.756,"end":9907.185,"text":"部長 這個就是本期現在擔心的一個問題點因為針對這個花蓮這個大地震之後我們擔心會不會這個原本我們都知道環評的程序比較進行有一個很長的一個時間會不會經過這個地震的影響造成環評這個程序又會拉得更長造成我們所謂個性是一個重大交通建設受到很大的一個影響時間又會拉得更長會不會這個問題出現"},{"start":9910.566,"end":9934.753,"text":"我覺得現在的在省財環境我們有很多客服這種環境比如說有的地方不應該經過我們就繞過等等的部長應該不會受到這個影響部長另外我想剛剛傅永有提到所謂的VOT的興建的這個案子那根據本席的了解他先有提出一個叫做引進國際的一個主權財富基金的一個模式"},{"start":9935.433,"end":9961.499,"text":"我請教國內我們有目前有這樣的處理方式嗎?沒有,好像沒有。我了解。啊這有那個國安的問題嗎?這個我就不清楚。但是我跟委員報告BOT一般比如說我有個案子要BOT出去我要有一些資料對外公布就像國安這個了解大鵬灣我們大鵬灣不是這樣就是過去有一些資料出來但是國道六號東延還沒有這些最新的資料"},{"start":9962.179,"end":9986.635,"text":"所以我是覺得在重燃要VOT他應該有一個這個先期的一個評估已經有一些資料了國外才敢來他都不會從頭開始那我想說他這裡提到很多的相關的建議但是我們現在已經在進行了現在我們就是一個過去所有都走這樣然後也完成台灣現在所有看到的建設幾乎都是走這樣的程序"},{"start":9987.881,"end":10014.3,"text":"那我想說最重要是我們加速在這次地震以後我們加速來進行是比較重要對阿所以部長我們還是要照相關的程序來照期間來走另外就是這裡有點也要跟部長這個反應因為我想這次花蓮地震之後造成我們那個屏東公路整個車流量整個塞在我們西部包含我們屏東出現這個有史以來破紀錄的車流量"},{"start":10015.32,"end":10040.314,"text":"像這個4月4號那一天光是一個南下路段5.3萬的車流量那從獅子的草埔隧道到豐港10公里車速為此10到15公里那我想未來未來是不是應該也要加快屏東的這個交通建設往東部未來是一個開拓往東部走的一個很重要的一個路徑這部分部長的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":10040.914,"end":10069.193,"text":"現在這樣我跟委員報平南平南他到鴻港的時候一個就是往台九線然後一個往二六嘛事實上在這裡就往東部跟往墾丁的已經分散了所以那另外就是南北公路的拓寬事實上我們已經進行很久現在剩下幾段也在拓寬我想他最大的應該是在平南快速道路在鴻港地區的分流分流以後我覺得就是狀況會比較好一點"},{"start":10069.733,"end":10083.116,"text":"所以我們來加速,而且平壤快道是裡面最重要的部分對,這部分邀請我們也要加快啦,因為畢竟這個東部若出現狀況的時候往西部地平東過花東是一條很好的路啦這裡我們來加速,謝謝好,謝謝好,謝謝徐委員下一位請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":10103.484,"end":10114.028,"text":"謝謝好謝謝我們召委喔那麻煩我們部長部長請鐵道局也一起好了好謝謝喔部長先請教一下我們系東線喔因為之前有流標嘛"},{"start":10115.144,"end":10143.351,"text":"我們西東縣之前有流標當然我跟新北市政府請教一下他們流標之後後續怎麼處置當然也有討論到一些原因好像是流標之後市政府會去詢問潛在的廠商這個標案是有哪一些問題其中好像有一項有提到說有講到國車國造的規格的問題廠商好像有一些疑義我不確定這可能部長不一定知道這個局長你知道嗎"},{"start":10146.884,"end":10167.285,"text":"目前應該沒有聽到有規格上面的問題沒有規格的問題好沒關係那我事後如果說新北市政府對於這個規格如果說廠商有問題的話那再來請教我們這個鐵道局啦就是因為現在都有規範我們的捷運建設基本上都要國車國照嘛那我想確認國車國照目前全台灣第一個案例是哪邊的"},{"start":10168.539,"end":10169.08,"text":"稍稍稍"},{"start":10190.479,"end":10204.718,"text":"會去可能確認因為畢竟國德國道可能就是一家廠商而已嘛一家廠商而已那他們可能會去確認一下規格沒關係這部分我們會後再來一起來協助新北市政府無論是規格的問題或者是經費的問題他們有提出嗎需要增加預算"},{"start":10205.619,"end":10233.576,"text":"目前還沒有嗎?好 那沒關係 那後續我們再一起推動好 謝謝局長那部長請教一下這個前一陣子這個大地震嘛那大家我們知道我們大地震完之後我們許多的軌道建設都會有這個巡查嘛那確認安全那才會行駛嘛那我想確認一下在公路系統啦我們也有許多的高架橋樑嘛那譬如說我們每天在走這個18標啊很多高架的路段我們在設計的時候是可以耐多少級的震度?"},{"start":10234.411,"end":10259.496,"text":"他很多次7級啦至少7級但是現在有一些舊的就沒有不符合新的大家都往7級現在的規範是7級但是就是要看他當初蓋的時候的一個規範那他符合當時的規範但是如果過去比如說過去是什麼5、6級我們會用結果補強方式來把它補強所以他你指的7級是指他所在地的那個嗎"},{"start":10260.436,"end":10276.376,"text":"那個傳遞到這邊的7級當地7級嘛那所以說這個強度應該是還蠻高的啦那7級的一個要求是指說因為我知道我們有一些規範比如說大鎮不倒嘛然後什麼中鎮怎樣小鎮可以普"},{"start":10277.377,"end":10305.596,"text":"基本上跟委員報告就是說我們在這個耐震的一個強度下的話他還可以維持一個行車的一個安全的就是人命的確保但他橋樑還是會有損傷的地方或多或少都有一些所以我們的七級就是確保他不會倒確保安全確保安全不會倒但是他可能有一些損傷就是看個案的情況這樣子那我們之後就包括每次地震之後也都會因為像鐵路運輸一定都是先停止"},{"start":10306.887,"end":10325.833,"text":"行駛嗎對不對那在這個公路系統的部分我們是大概會在多久時間內完成的一個巡視這樣子跟委員報告我們現在是整個國道部分有密布3000支的CCTV所以我們第一時間的話會在迅速都很短的時間內確認用CCTV全部都看一遍那看一遍之後確認沒有問題那我們就繼續來行駛這樣"},{"start":10328.334,"end":10337.754,"text":"所以CCTV有包含到有有有辦法到那麼密嗎?你如果說以三千隻的話大概多長一隻我們現在是一千一零六二公里"},{"start":10339.289,"end":10354.454,"text":"三千之一零六二公里,那大概平均．若算平均的話．所以我們可以確保我們的CCTV是能夠涵蓋．就是它的視野是可以涵蓋所有的路段．那你三千多字你要多少人才能夠把它看完．"},{"start":10364.553,"end":10383.024,"text":"所以我們交通中心的人都會集中一直來關注這些事那有沒有考慮過這個用AI輔助之類的來這個幫忙判讀這樣子目前還沒有看到有這些的發展那我們現在有那個後續的話我們會看國外的狀況是怎麼做尤其是日本"},{"start":10383.789,"end":10407.705,"text":"因為其實道路你鏡頭一樣的話那它的路況原則上會一樣這車子會動而已嘛那主結構原則上是不會動嘛那其實如果說用影像來判別的話相對起來我自己的判斷難易度應該不是那麼高啦如果說有一些小的小的損傷可能或許不一定有那麼容易判讀但是如果說我們應該可以在有比較大的損傷的時候應該是有辦法用這個AI系統來做給他一個判讀嘛"},{"start":10411.676,"end":10426.997,"text":"我們大概有一些列管的一個橋樑的部分會針對那些列管比較就是說我們評估上那個耐震的會有一些風險的地方的部分會特別去注意沒有我就其實只是討論一個時效性的問題啦就像我們大家都會希望說"},{"start":10427.858,"end":10457.858,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":10457.938,"end":10468.891,"text":"好謝謝謝謝好謝謝廖欣祥委員下一位請王世堅委員發言"},{"start":10484.714,"end":10506.153,"text":"主席,我請部長跟台鐵的董事長。給東部人一條安全回家的路。那這句話已經講了幾十年了。那也經過"},{"start":10509.358,"end":10535.063,"text":"兩黨輪流執政之後那也都各別在各黨執政時期都有發生過在往東部鐵路的意外事件那這一次我們有一個改善的六年計劃一百零四年到一百一十一年也花了不少錢花了十億元其實喔真的有效的話不要說十億元啦一百億元再多的金額都應該花"},{"start":10537.401,"end":10564.358,"text":"我今天跟你提起這件事情就是說我發現我們台鐵所布建所檢測的這些邊坡落石的地段滑動的地段我覺得齁過於草率啦花是有花了十億元沒錯但是你們檢測到的第一點你們檢測是用基本的目測目視"},{"start":10567.403,"end":10594.925,"text":"那第二點目視有認為有危險的地方你們才去加裝這些警示器啦偵測器這一些那事實上我都覺得這已經太被動而且也太少我就舉例你在整個台鐵這個沿線你們設的這些邊坡落石警示器你們有設26處"},{"start":10598.089,"end":10623.618,"text":"那這26處光高鐵啊高鐵只有在我們台灣的西岸光高鐵他就高達95處之多啦高鐵就95處他只在我們西岸更何況高鐵經過的地區大部分都屬於平民路段"},{"start":10624.745,"end":10645.13,"text":"那樣子的情況下他對於他會接觸到的邊坡他就那麼細緻詳細的去規劃去檢測去做警示器而你台鐵你通過了你不只是我們台灣西部地點你包括東北段整個環台灣的"},{"start":10649.172,"end":10649.972,"text":"這次發生問題的地點還不在你26處的偵測當中天啊"},{"start":10676.826,"end":10682.61,"text":"所以到底還有多少地方我們沒有檢測沒有去檢測到沒有去裝設監視系統所以還是個很大的未知數"},{"start":10690.543,"end":10718.822,"text":"所以這個部分喔那個部長你的看法呢這個部分要怎麼加強我跟委員報告的確在過去台鐵他有的用鋼軌裝來當柵欄然後在邊坡做一些燃石頭的一些設備然後我們後來這個26處已經做好現在我們另外一個計畫做38處那這一次剛剛委員提到的的確這一次是從這個上面的公路的邊坡調到鐵路的軌道"},{"start":10720.843,"end":10737.712,"text":"那他的確在他檢查裡面是鐵路的背後是OK的但是從上面公路這樣掉下來所以這個是在這次這個所以是從公路上那部長你這又提醒了我另外一點結果我們台鐵多妙他所檢測的範圍他說啊20公尺"},{"start":10742.187,"end":10768.726,"text":"範圍內才是他欸超過20公尺的一公那要看看所有全人是誰那很多那個那個就是他一推456就推給公務局或者推給其他邊坡那些坡地地主的身上這不是很奇怪嗎20公尺你20公尺怎麼算的啦這次我們觀看地震那個大石頭那個來源都不止20公尺啦不是嗎"},{"start":10769.898,"end":10792.461,"text":"所以你20公尺怎麼算的呢?局長你的算法是怎麼算的?欸那個董事長,你們怎麼算法?你是這一部分專業欸!你是鐵路局從基層一路上來的欸!你應該對鐵路系統的安全、它的檢測、它的布測這些偵測系統,你應該更謹慎才對啊不是嗎?是。"},{"start":10794.708,"end":10819.291,"text":"跟委員報告這個20公尺是指我們路權開始計算那的確啦像這一次我們這個地震發生在公路側的邊坡的這件事情我們未來會加強跟公路總局那邊的一個聯繫我們不會把這個加強跟公路總局的聯繫公路總局很多至少我覺得我光提供一樣"},{"start":10820.458,"end":10847.868,"text":"他有召詢啦就是說重大的地震事故天災之後人家他們啦會針對每一處可能的地點他們去做召詢每一次一起動連著就七天我請問啊我們鐵路局可有啦鐵路公司可有沒有吧我們也有我們自己巡軌的一個規定"},{"start":10849.298,"end":10865.692,"text":"你們有你們選舉的規定?怎樣的規定?至少我在你所有的報告裡面看不到。他是招詢。人家他早上一早就出動啦。你夜詢嗎?我跟委員剛才談到的有的叫定檢。一個叫特別檢查。就地震以後他們都馬上發動這個特別檢查。"},{"start":10867.634,"end":10897.157,"text":"然後我們在這個交通部有一個系統會通知他說哪一些地方要特別檢查這個我在做的確剛剛委員提到那個我覺得很重要就是說他的現在的危害已經不是只有看自己路線的部分他上面有公路他知道說上面有可能下來所以我覺得在這一次我也請他們兩個局要看一下像這一種從這個公路邊坡掉到鐵路的邊坡然後掉到軌道這件事情在後續的落實告警系統就要去處理"},{"start":10897.557,"end":10899.378,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員的發言。下一位請許宜貞委員發言。"},{"start":10924.755,"end":10927.148,"text":"主席請交通部王部長王部長請"},{"start":10933.949,"end":10953.916,"text":"議員好部長好我想請教一下就是我們0403的地震之後剛剛看你們的報告目前雖然已經修復了部分但是目前對外的交通還是相當不方便請問交通部計畫在多久的時間內會讓花蓮通往外的這個交通能夠恢復正常是我剛委員報告"},{"start":10954.796,"end":10971.767,"text":"那個鐵路部分在這個4月3號隔天4月4號就通了啦所以雙向鐵路沒問題公路就是一個是台9跟台8那台9現在的確下清水條斷了以後我們現在是用一個變橋的方式比較不方便單向"},{"start":10972.307,"end":10998.921,"text":"我的意思是說到底大概所有的海、陸、空通通都可以恢復正常的都在大概是什麼時候?現在都恢復但是就是比較不方便現在是會比較不方便然後我們有定的時程就是大概什麼時候可以恢復正常夏青水橋的部分就是年底會把它修好所以應該是所有的重建工作都在年底前會這個對外的交通的部分就中場的部分在年底"},{"start":10999.401,"end":11026.327,"text":"是不是可以請這個部長因為這是對花蓮人來說是非常不方便希望能夠加快然後另外就是在這次的地震當中因為其實花蓮最重要都是以觀光業為主旅遊業為主那現在這一次經過地震之後其實在疫情就已經造成了他們的一個衝擊那地震之後更是雪上加霜所以觀光署表示已經在年底五月到年底的協助振興方案"},{"start":11026.787,"end":11054.317,"text":"希望在五月初能夠順利推動。我想請教一下中央行政院是不是可以同意這個計畫的補助經費。我們現在大概有關公署的部分。就是說第一波就是禮數月的信用保證跟利息貸款。然後第二波就是受災戶讓他到旅館居住的補助。那第三個就是我們對於自由行跟團客的補助。"},{"start":11054.997,"end":11074.074,"text":"那現在觀光署已經有初步方案但是因為行政院是有一個各部會、跨部會的一個協助花蓮的一個方案那我們現在這個計畫會提到這一個來談是,除了花蓮我覺得台東可能也需要因為它最近的觀光的這個流人可以一直不斷地下降"},{"start":11074.654,"end":11102.16,"text":"另外再請教您就是發展觀光條例第70之二條規定本條例在中華民國104年1月22號修正前就是這個相關的這個條文在10年內可以向地方主管機關申請旅遊業的登記喔那但是因為前幾年遇到新冠疫情的關係所以這些單位包括商客大樓、青年活動中心、教室會館、這個國軍總管跟學校實習旅館這些都沒有辦法在10年內完成登記"},{"start":11102.84,"end":11120.762,"text":"但這些往往都是公安課他們住宿的會去使用的地方而且有不少的從業人員本期在這邊要求是不是可以在展延五年以輔導上述的單位取得合法的證照或轉型以維護他們員工的權益公安部署有在研究我請副署長說明好不好來請"},{"start":11123.624,"end":11140.873,"text":"是,謝謝委員關心這個議題那我想如果說像一些的香客大樓或者是說有一些不是營利性質的比如說這個香客大樓是這個水洗那個添那個香油錢的話那他就不計那個營業的那個事實所以這個不會在我們的那個規範那個範圍之內是"},{"start":11143.254,"end":11146.096,"text":"另外就是4月10日的馬席二會習近平公開表示樂見大陸民眾多去祖國報道"},{"start":11163.887,"end":11186.721,"text":"這個看一看不少人都認為這對於兩岸觀光可以很快的鬆綁也讓旅遊樂看到曙光所以在11號的時候我們的觀光航空股就紛紛上漲代表著大家都樂觀的看待此事所以交通部是不是可以先表達善意取消日前公佈的進團令重新開放我方組團附入旅遊重振旅遊業的這個商機"},{"start":11187.722,"end":11216.741,"text":"由我們這個率先的表態展現善意也代表我們更加希望兩岸能夠重啟觀光業請問部長是否可以因為我們現在3月1號到5月底現在在開放中對我知道那我只能是您6月開始的進行反應現在就在釋出善意我們要等回應昨天我跟觀光業稍微座談一下他們也事實上比如對岸的國台辦等等的也是因為這個馬歇二會裡面所提的這個部分他們也在探詢"},{"start":11217.702,"end":11238.555,"text":"所以說部長對於這個取消競團運營也樂觀其成是嗎?如果對方也過來的話雙向這個往來我是支持的。好,我們希望能夠協助李友業來共度這個難關。謝謝。好,謝謝許玉珍委員。下一位請麥玉珍委員發言。"},{"start":11257.361,"end":11260.386,"text":"邀請交通部部長謝謝主席麥偉豪"},{"start":11267.57,"end":11286.919,"text":"首先對於花蓮發生大地震我想大家都非常遺憾跟關心但我們發現說只是地震每逢像颱風、大雨的那種天災我們就會知道說基礎的交通建設有多麼重要"},{"start":11287.679,"end":11315.144,"text":"我相信每個東部的居民心裡都會有這樣子的一個願望是說想要一條回家的道路當然也是很慶幸這一次地震不是發生在連駕期間所以我們看到這一次的地震在樹花公路造成一名連結車的司機被落石砸中就是當場死亡"},{"start":11316.424,"end":11336.858,"text":"下清水橋整座攤販的全線中斷多地方攤販所以請問我們的交通部蘇安花的改善計畫到底要多久現在的困境到底在哪裡"},{"start":11338.01,"end":11343.857,"text":"國道六號東延花蓮現在也沒有困境,就要積極推動。目標就是121年完工。現在環評小組2月審購,我們這個月底會再送進去。趕5月12號的大會。過的話我們就是來見。"},{"start":11355.171,"end":11379.085,"text":"那剛剛所提的在整個蘇安的這個路線我們事實上從可行性到綜合規劃是不斷的優化比如說過去在河壬道崇德這一段是兩個短隧道我現在弄一個10.2公里的長隧道避免它裸露在外面的機會所以我們現在整個都是積極優化提供這個花東一條安全回家的路"},{"start":11380.302,"end":11402.989,"text":"好,謝謝我們的部長除了花東地區以外還有一個地方也是要安全回家的路就是我們的中橫公路的復建計畫從921到現在這個大地震的中斷我們台中的路線就離山地區的居民已經等了25年了"},{"start":11404.309,"end":11424.753,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11424.893,"end":11453.999,"text":"所以希望說我們就是大學都畢業了小孩子都嫁人了到現在還沒有通所以所以我們每一個縣市就是像我們台中這個離山這邊也需要一個回家的路希望說我們要不只是我們的花蓮所以這已經地震25年了所以今年呢在2月16號行政院終於核定可行計畫但是"},{"start":11455.497,"end":11475.613,"text":"要依照這中衡的變道還有計畫說在13年才完工這個是我們台中人就是等無啦等到脖子都寡啦等無到所以請問部長這個期程有沒有可能縮短還是有沒有其他的方案"},{"start":11477.015,"end":11503.331,"text":"委員報告,這個部分他前面921以後他經過十幾年叫做讓他地形、地貿穩定的時間那我們是估這個115以後可以進入施工的階段所以我們就提前做這個可行性那剛才談到就是古灌到德基水庫這一段現在已經方案也找出來了就是新的路線的方案找出來"},{"start":11503.891,"end":11526.346,"text":"那後續就是他因為後續還有一個環評然後這個綜合規劃的一個階段那我們要加速了我們加速來進行好這拜託我們交通部你們對政府來說只是一個計畫對我們的民眾在那邊來說是我們可以說有一個回家的路這個部分我們要拜託拜託我們的部長謝謝好謝謝蔓玉春委員發言"},{"start":11534.232,"end":11558.199,"text":"下一位請謝一鳳委員發言。謝一鳳、謝一鳳不在。陳庭菲委員發言。陳庭菲、陳庭菲不在。蔡易瑜委員發言。蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜不在。下一位請邱若驊委員發言。好,謝謝主席。有請部長。部長請。"},{"start":11564.341,"end":11593.465,"text":"好,部長好辛苦了那本席在上個月的時候25號在交通委員會諮詢的時候有提到講到花東地區的居民渴望一條安全回家的路那花東地區的居民也需要帶動地方發展的重大建設那花東的交通在這次0403之後那也讓原本的蘇花公路成為重災區那數百次的余震還有落石不斷重創花東的交通那花蓮和台東的居民還有很多民眾都想要知道究竟何時可以給花東地區"},{"start":11594.125,"end":11616.419,"text":"安全可靠快速的交通系統那王部長您也在本月11號受訪的時候說到現在花蓮最重要的就是蘇花安的建設讓整條蘇花公路變得安全那本期要請教部長要如何全力加速蘇花公路安全計畫那環評出省若通過可以確保2026年開始動工"},{"start":11619.961,"end":11620.921,"text":"三二年、晚工。"},{"start":11638.047,"end":11658.496,"text":"然後這次大家說要改的這個說要完全無損所以我們是覺得我個人覺得在過去做了三段中間的現在把它連起來這個是應該是目前是一個花東最重要的一條建設那目前是這樣環評在二月審查小組有些意見我們現在這個月底會再送進去"},{"start":11659.096,"end":11678.485,"text":"那我是有了解好像他們午夜會有個環評大會如果可以的話就按照這個行程來進行就是以2032年、1、2、1年完工當我們最重要的目標那4月10號的時候夜晚發生普悠瑪號在花蓮的和平站南端插撞到"},{"start":11681.847,"end":11692.533,"text":"地震落石讓乘客飽受驚嚇。台鐵行車安全改善計畫在這次花蓮大地震發生後還有哪些部分需要再做加強?有沒有盤點?"},{"start":11694.058,"end":11710.413,"text":"他在太魯閣事件以後他是在做了26處的落實告警的系統那現在還有一筆經費已經核定就是再加38處那他是在明年以前會完工"},{"start":11711.314,"end":11725.832,"text":"我上次提到就是說因為你這個花蓮地區大概阻震跟移震800多次所以它的整個地質可能都鬆動了所以我有特別請這個台鐵在評估比如說在公路的下方"},{"start":11726.852,"end":11742.244,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":11742.426,"end":11767.987,"text":"是,那請問黃建豪委員有問到目前的那個審議進度就是關於鐵路邊坡維護還有管理的草案嘛,那本席想要問就是請問還有在公路還有國道高鐵方面有沒有完善的相關規範?他那個規範是重點沒有規範他現在有他的規定在做啦,但是他做更完善就是說過去在邊坡就是規定這個定檢還有特別檢查等等的相關的一些規定"},{"start":11768.607,"end":11788.016,"text":"我們現在趕快就是這個修正的報告現在本來是說年底才有辦法審我看能不能再加速再加速OK好那本夕昨天到台七線40公里處的八林大橋因為遭坍塌的大石頭撞擊橋墩那進行會刊"},{"start":11789.477,"end":11808.957,"text":"我們台七線也是桃園通往宜蘭路上的其中有一個大漢橋會館那可以從簡報看到那北橫一帶是受遊客歡迎的景點那也要請交通部和相關單位檢視邊坡還有道路安全那台七線的大漢災害路段有設置如這個照片我們所看到"},{"start":11810.599,"end":11828.433,"text":"若實為地動的監測系統,請教部長各地公路的設置情況如何?各位報告,因為這個部分的話是屬於就是說委託陽明交大研究團隊一個事辦的一個計畫那這一個部分的話就是因為大漫路段現在還在這一個修復"},{"start":11829.714,"end":11852.459,"text":"那所以就是說通行的時候畢竟就是說它是一個大面積的一個崩塌的一個路段所以只是就是說這個是一個就是說這個落實的一個這個為地動的一個系統那所以就是說如果說有落實的話就是說大概會有一些警示那不過就是說主要是因為說現在大漫路段還在修復可能在通行的過程中"},{"start":11852.859,"end":11869.214,"text":"有一些低落實的風險先有一個告警那不過我們想說這個示範的一個這個系統如果說未來如果說有成效也不錯的話想我們也可以來演繹來推動所以目前只有大漫路段使用這個系統是是是好謝謝部長謝謝邱委員好謝謝朱洛豪委員的發言下一位請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":11899.614,"end":11916.379,"text":"主席、部長、公路總局執政"},{"start":11928.536,"end":11953.891,"text":"政務委員好部長好還有局長還有我們交通部的所有的官員我們去回顧一下蘇花改部長這次蘇花改這個零四零三地震都沒有怎麼樣嗎沒錯蘇花改當時蘇花改的路段是先做以前災害"},{"start":11955.353,"end":11955.593,"text":"我們看這個蘇花蓮"},{"start":11985.046,"end":12009.559,"text":"民國97年11月10號行政院合定這個可行性的研究兩年多之後就動工了有沒有一百年1月29號兩年多就動工了當時是比較困難的這個蘇花安一百零八年行政院合定"},{"start":12011.366,"end":12031.531,"text":"行政院核定然後開始進入環評整個108年行政院核定可行性研究到現在你們本來預估111年進入環評結果交通部一直到去年112年11月21號才送到環境部"},{"start":12036.84,"end":12065.663,"text":"然後環境部在今年的3月20號召開環評會議出審有意見所以這個部分我上次也跟次長講了交通部公務總局要跟環評委員因為環評委員換了跟以前的跟現在的不一樣要跟他們說明了蘇阿改的狀況跟現在蘇阿安"},{"start":12066.944,"end":12094.566,"text":"這個時候沒有通過很奇怪啊所以這個不會把他說明清楚尤其他們也有疑慮你就給他看南回公路有沒有南回公路也是往海邊去蓋的也有啊這個因為蘇花改蘇花案也有嘛有一部分是這樣要讓他清楚知道以前都通過為什麼現在不能過"},{"start":12095.882,"end":12099.832,"text":"要說服說服的方式就是用事實來讓他證明"},{"start":12101.243,"end":12128.111,"text":"可以嗎?現在二月的小組有意見他是原來跟我們講五月底送進去我們現在這個四月底就要送進去了那的確這個蘇哈路郎因為在太魯閣國家公演他要求四季的環評所以有一個一年的時間在這個環評被拖到這個時間但是我覺得這個是目前我認為在花蓮台東最重要的一條路我們必須加速來進行"},{"start":12130.25,"end":12153.87,"text":"對,確實應該要加速地來進行而且要一定要去把它說明清楚讓他們去了解還可以有個案例是什麼案例北回鐵路1980年2月1號正式通車典禮部長也清楚嗎北回鐵路這一次0403地震"},{"start":12156.894,"end":12180.294,"text":"凌晨就經過檢視檢視之後就安全了都沒有怎麼樣就通車了嘛對不對4月4號的凌晨就通車了給回鐵路這個就是很好的案例所以這個部分的就是要讓環評人員那個瞭解當初啊你看6年就工期6年工期啊"},{"start":12181.65,"end":12182.29,"text":"稍後請黃峰凱委員發言。等一下。"},{"start":12213.169,"end":12238.13,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請王部長部長請好部長好部長本來想說是不是還有機會明年本期回交通委員會的時候能夠看到您那但是看起來說不定你還有新的職務安排是不是沒有沒有目前有沒有新的職務安排沒有沒有完全沒有那也沒有人徵詢過您"},{"start":12239.4,"end":12246.055,"text":"沒有都沒有那之後勒我休息一下好久沒休息了應該沒有考慮要退休吧"},{"start":12246.843,"end":12276.143,"text":"我覺得也可以部長本席說實在話一直在強調交通就是要專業也因此用專業的態度做為每一天都可以為國家來做事那交通部跟外交部也不一樣其實我覺得交通部長不好做一個事情發生部長可能就要有負起責任我們看外交部說斷了8個邦交國都可以不用下台這也是非常離譜跟滑稽的事情"},{"start":12276.977,"end":12284.856,"text":"那我現在比較想請教的是說針對這一次的花蓮地震4月10號有據時入侵到我們這個鐵軌"},{"start":12286.857,"end":12312.579,"text":"其實這個議題我覺得一直都是一個老問題但是到底我們台鐵或是說到底我們交通部有沒有跟國人說明清楚大概說實話0402那時候這個泰魯格號的時候就已經有講了我們那時候也講說邊坡的一個防護跟這個軌道入侵的系統那當時不是也跟我們講是說要花20億來建置相關的一個費用相關的一個系統"},{"start":12314.961,"end":12329.087,"text":"那那個時候要人給人、要錢給錢我們也全力支持那怎麼會這一次又再發生巨石撞擊出軌、捕幽馬號巨石撞擊出軌然後才質疑說原來那個地方根本沒有警告系統沒有裝這個警告系統"},{"start":12330.171,"end":12356.018,"text":"現在那個公園報告以後我們做26處啦那後來我們發覺不夠所以他現在有一個經委也有要做38處那應該是我覺得這樣子喔部長能不能告訴國人一下全我們鐵道的路線裡面我們有多少這個公里長度那我們比例到底有多少是有含瓜在這個路徑鐵道路徑系統"},{"start":12358.837,"end":12380.809,"text":"什麼意思?你跟我們講26處他到底是一個點一個範圍還是一個路段一個範圍是 那個範圍到底有沒有含刮到多少面積因為其實你這樣看起來我們那時候一直講到26處我們當時候講說26處可能把台灣大部分這種危險的範圍都把它含刮進去那你現在又在一個落實之後你來講是說我們26處不夠要增加38處"},{"start":12384.69,"end":12401.74,"text":"那不就是當初泰魯格號事件的時候就讓大家覺得是玩假的嗎?如果你那個38處也認為是說是重要的那為什麼在當初沒有把它編列?當初就應該是26加38啊那你現在26處做完了大家以為沒有問題了以為安全了結果又發生了落實"},{"start":12403.632,"end":12405.694,"text":"二十六數是當時看就是用太魯閣在這個清水隧道裡面這個狀況跟他類似的就把它裝了"},{"start":12423.45,"end":12444.365,"text":"然後後來我們覺得這個不夠所以又加了這個38處現在在進行那不夠是因為這一次有落實而且這一次落實好加債好加債沒有造成這種慘案這種傷亡38處要很加速來做什麼時候可以做好?這38處最終在明年中明年中?預計要花多少錢?"},{"start":12449.513,"end":12469.207,"text":"三十八處的話大概這可能要查一下我查一下這跟委員報告好不好我跟委員補充啦就是說二十六處崔義雄做了奧米斯節不過三十八處這一次在花蓮的這個八百多次的組"},{"start":12470.128,"end":12492.176,"text":"議長﹖"},{"start":12493.669,"end":12520.658,"text":"當時我們講太魯閣號的時候就講說台鐵跟高鐵最大不同是高鐵他沿線全線都有鐵道入侵系統嘛警示系統那台鐵沒有嘛所以我們才會講是說那是不是台鐵應該也要加速來裝置當時也是期待是說是不是全線也要裝那當然有一些路段可能相對來講是可能真的評估沒有必要所以沒有裝可是至少我們也認為是說你應該要見其就見其尤其這是生命財產安全沒有人會反對"},{"start":12521.943,"end":12544.491,"text":"那你之前26處裝多少錢26處大概接近4億4億那現在38處38處是6.1億6.1億加起來不過10億我講不客氣的你當初泰魯格號事件發生之後你跟我們講要20億要30億我們一定也會同意國人也一定會同意因為什麼這個就是安全問題"},{"start":12546.414,"end":12557.419,"text":"但那個時候我們也都一直授權我們也是一直要告訴交通部門告訴台鐵部門講說提出來我們希望泰魯格號就最後一次了那結果你們講26億26處4億"},{"start":12561.446,"end":12589.589,"text":"結果現在又發生這個事情真的是很好家在沒有再發生不然的話我們講是說這除了天災外這可能是人禍那未來38處裝完之後還會不會有需求如果說這只是6億38處是6億那我真的建議你們再多花一個月的時間徹底的清查徹底的去了解你說38處我甚至講72處我相信交通委員會我相信我們黨團一定都會支持"},{"start":12590.851,"end":12596.023,"text":"不要每一次都是說一頓、做一頓、頭痛一頭、腳痛一腳 這就很典型的頭痛一頭、腳痛一腳"},{"start":12596.732,"end":12624.046,"text":"好,這個宏偉我覺得這次花蓮地震以後我事實上已經跟他們談過了如果要加金會我們全力支持我是覺得經過於這個地震以後他的整個這個地質的狀況都變得改變了啦他可能要更廣來看這個課題真的讓國人安心、安全我希望這次王國材部長任內要離開前真的為國人留下一個好一點的這個回憶好不好好,謝謝好,謝謝宏偉委員"},{"start":12629.116,"end":12641.4,"text":"下一位請張宏祿委員發言。張宏祿、張宏祿不在。張家俊委員發言。張家俊、張家俊不在。林益君委員發言。林益君、林益君不在。羅敏采委員發言。羅敏采、羅敏采不在。請林國誠委員發言。好,主席請部長。"},{"start":12664.361,"end":12682.845,"text":"今天在質詢你啊心裡面有一一不捨在我個人不管是當議員到當立委來我看到的講求專業的是王國材這不是拍馬屁是因為我私底下請教你"},{"start":12684.201,"end":12705.054,"text":"我比較質問的就傅崐萁總召提出花蓮的有兩個案、三個案我就看本會同仁一直在批評這個批評那個但是我私底下請教你你確確實實覺得花蓮的交通是要解決的"},{"start":12706.397,"end":12717.829,"text":"可是我們今天說實在的你專業走了以後又來換一個政治那就更糟糕更糟糕所以我還是要呼籲未來的賴政府"},{"start":12719.281,"end":12744.348,"text":"交通的事情是要用交通解決不是用政治解決所以我還是真的蠻希望下一屆的部長真的最少要像王國材這樣講專業再講政治不要先講政治再來講專業所以本席雖有依依不捨但是就事論事還是要來談國道六號的問題"},{"start":12748.052,"end":12752.118,"text":"我們為什麼不想一想我們從藍頭到花蓮花蓮到藍頭"},{"start":12755.68,"end":12783.82,"text":"本來是二十公里而已欸你偏偏的一定要繞了三百五十公里才可以到花蓮才可以到南投欸情何以堪欸南島也是人欸花蓮也是人欸哪裡台北哪裡對亞都都是人欸台灣人民那為什麼要不同的待遇就是因為有政治力的介入"},{"start":12784.5,"end":12804.328,"text":"所以我就感覺到很奇怪啊建設都不談專業先談政治再來談專業這個本末導致基本上本席是非常不贊同的另外一個部長你有沒有想一想為什麼他們一直要提這個案"},{"start":12805.664,"end":12834.864,"text":"這個也是被你們逼的啦三十年來你們說要做我不管是梳化膏、梳化什麼、梳化鐵或者國道六號都被你們騙到這陣子已經三十年了住在花東地區的人住在沿線的人我跟你說剛才我看到傅君祺總召在播放那些東西我就瞬間有一個想法如果"},{"start":12835.384,"end":12853.729,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":12854.129,"end":12877.865,"text":"將心比心三十年來您大家都專家都在做價位都政治林佳宇專業這不好所以最後啦也有人在講啊說啊這我現在開三千億啊開三千億啊問題無解決開三兆也是一樣啊沒有問題沒有解決你花一塊錢都是浪費公帑所以三千億不要再講"},{"start":12878.726,"end":12905.385,"text":"另外一個就是說哦那裡啊岩石啊地震啊什麼東西我跟你講啦部長技術啦現在都可以突破不要用台灣人民的想法我坦白跟你講任何再困難的技術都有辦法去處理所以我說實在啦我住在台北我本身屏東人當然跟我無關可是我就看不過去嘛"},{"start":12907.737,"end":12925.865,"text":"所以我希望,雖然依依不捨,但是你有這功能行為,我希望下一屆的部長不要再政治臨界專業啦。所以博弈,我要拜託啦,你不用回覆啦,因為你回覆,心裡話你不敢說啦。政治臨界專業,我還是要呼籲。"},{"start":12927.927,"end":12944.579,"text":"專業很重要不要用政治凌駕專業所以拜託這個案件該做得到要做這是本期對交通部所有的人員一個啟齊啦好你要不用回覆啦謝謝好謝謝林國臣委員現在處理臨時提案本日既有一個案子請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":12958.993,"end":12982.123,"text":"宣讀臨時提案。借與0403花蓮地震造成地形地貌重大改變地勢更加脆弱且山區環境極不穩定又高速公路局成於110年12月召開國內專家顧問諮詢會議諮詢國外專家初步評估需穿越中山中央山脈不確定因素高途工程技術困難度極高並具有"},{"start":12982.623,"end":13002.547,"text":"照價高供其長環境衝擊巨大行車安全及防救災疑慮然安全回家的路不僅是基於交流便利之交通平權更應適利於安全至上本草案涉及重大交通建設之推動自規劃至執行等過程須經過詳實可行性評估嚴謹確認符合計劃效率為避免本草案審查過程過於長處"},{"start":13011.909,"end":13033.515,"text":"草率應給予委員們就法案內容充裕之討論餘地以其使立法過程更為周詳勿使,遠要求交通部針對重大交通建設推動應循序漸進、新完成地質調查及踏刊研究,再次研究成果進行可行性評估,提案人委員林俊憲等。宣讀完畢。好,請問交通部有沒有意見?報告委員會有沒有意見?交通部沒有意見喔?各位委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":13041.889,"end":13047.149,"text":"有啊有盧委員你要不要說明一下?"},{"start":13054.232,"end":13054.252,"text":"委員長"},{"start":13084.312,"end":13106.147,"text":"整個的內容我覺得是針對立法委員是針對我們不是在講交通部就是應該立法委員應該要怎麼樣怎麼樣那對交通部反而基本上沒有提出任何的事情完全沒有對他們一些要求那我想說這個部分對委員這邊的一個討論因為待會直接國道六號東延"},{"start":13107.868,"end":13121.838,"text":"我們花蓮的這個案子本來就會逐條做一個討論直接在這個討論中一一來可以來表達意見所以我個人是不希望第二段的有一些針對立委的這個文字在裡面謝謝不是好那個副院長"},{"start":13128.447,"end":13155.478,"text":"我剛剛在這裡聽那個林國成委員針對政治不應該凌駕專業本人深有同感我也覺得政治不應該凌駕專業民進黨幾位委員同仁所提的這個臨時提案很清楚的原要求交通部針對重大交通建設推動應循序漸進先完成地質調查及踏勘研究再"},{"start":13156.522,"end":13176.221,"text":"是研究成果進行可行性評估。我想請問要求交通部做這個案子做這樣的一個行政程序不是因為對專業的重視這不是國家在面對重大交通建設所該進行的程序嗎?就算今天最後"},{"start":13177.342,"end":13202.961,"text":"國民黨所提、傅崐萁委員所提的版本通過了難道我們不需要進行難道我們的程序不是先進行地質調查、探勘研究再進行可行性評估嗎這個叫做專業啦所以呢我不知道反對這個案子那接下來就算傅崐萁委員的版本通過了請問請問一下諸位委員"},{"start":13205.097,"end":13230.315,"text":"你們該怎麼進行這個這個國道六號延升花東的這個案子所以我想民進黨委員所提的這個提案主要要提醒交通部程序就是這樣走啦那我不知道如果大家要反對這個程序這樣走那我倒想請教那大家接下來認為怎麼樣表決過了交通部連"},{"start":13232.113,"end":13256.248,"text":"地質探勘什麽都不用做肯定不會不用做直接蓋嗎這個叫做政治凌駕專業以上做這樣的報告好啊謝謝副院長林俊賢委員謝謝主席各位同仁剛剛提到的地質調查報告也許我們很多同仁不曉得"},{"start":13257.518,"end":13274.126,"text":"國道六號東延到花蓮的路廊探勘及地質調查進行到一半這是112年2023年12月14日展開也就是說目前正在進行地質調查當中預計是2026年完成地質的調查"},{"start":13279.83,"end":13292.321,"text":"所以是地質調查是已經開始而且調查到一半那如果按照我們副會計委員裡面他寫的他說立即啟動可靜性評估這個有衝突啦應該是你先完成地質調查報告"},{"start":13295.075,"end":13321.744,"text":"以它作為基礎那可靈性評估才能進行嘛所以其實我們這個提案也不是反對啦這個臨時提案的內容它是說先完成地質調查及踏竿的研究因為它是進行到一半了政府已經花錢花到一半了你現在在突然間要求它要立即啟動可靈性評估我們認為這樣有所衝突所以才提出這樣的一個臨時提案啦以上補充好蘇議員"},{"start":13328.271,"end":13353.165,"text":"謝謝主席那就是針對這個國道六號東延到這個花蓮這個建設案那我們的提案事實上不是在反對這個建設因為我們知道重大交通建設不是一觸可及的然後也需要長時間的一個推動所以剛剛林國松委員的發言我也深表贊同就是不能政治凌駕轉眼"},{"start":13354.226,"end":13354.446,"text":"好謝謝蘇委員"},{"start":13383.223,"end":13406.816,"text":"所有人等一下齁,早上蔡副委員長講,我們要尊重憲法嘛,對不對?像馬祖那邊大橋,我跟你報告一下副委員長,馬祖大橋可信性評估也過了,綜合規劃也出來了,技術也沒問題,預算也沒問題,錢就是不給啊,是不是?"},{"start":13407.645,"end":13432.13,"text":"這是什麼?這是政治凌駕專業。這個才叫政治凌駕專業。所以我剛才講的我也不想再講了。這個傅崐萁委員有沒有提說,有沒有講說多少錢啊?他有沒有說一定要幹什麼?只是說政府重視一下嘛,是不是?好,那林國正委員歡迎。"},{"start":13433.953,"end":13460.861,"text":"我想民進黨提這個案子我個人的看法當然是OK啦那這個是不是在最後第三段我是不是建議比較綜合性尊重交通部這裡在作業因為後面這兩段我認為都應該一定要做有沒有可能要求交通部這個部分改為建請交通部或"},{"start":13461.701,"end":13489.293,"text":"後面再加一個研議那這個問題就由交通部他們去做評估有沒有可能這樣可能大家也這個提案當然是沒有問題能不能說要求改為建議那這樣比較柔性一點這樣的話可能大家因為你們提的這些最後是由這個交通部他們來做後面這些動作我是建議這樣啦大家參考看看"},{"start":13491.038,"end":13515.453,"text":"要求改建請行不行?可以喔?要求改為建請。然後研議交通部研議。研議喔?原要求交通部研議。原建請。原建請啦,原建請。原建請交通部研議。好,那副委員有意見嗎?提案人做一個說明。"},{"start":13518.904,"end":13539.431,"text":"剛剛陳儒主席所講的在馬祖大橋可心研究通過了所有程序的晚輩但是沒有錢因為不願意編列也陳儒剛剛主席在詢答的時候有問到正天才委員也有詢答也有提到"},{"start":13540.598,"end":13567.428,"text":"二零零八年五月十號國民黨執政兩年八個月之後完成可行研究完成所有的程序在二零一一年一月二十九號動工兩年八個月樹花改動工從可行研究綜合規劃環境想評估預算編列全部完成我們再轉頭回來看一下國道六號在二零二零年三月四號"},{"start":13568.973,"end":13584.981,"text":"在本委員會就已經通過要進行地質調查探勘到現在今天部長表示2026年年底地質調查才可以完成總共一個地質調查609個月"},{"start":13587.581,"end":13612.739,"text":"還不要想啊我沒可行研究其實我想提這個案子我想大家都很清楚提這個案子啊這裡面都是交通部知道他該怎麼做的光提這個案子本席現在覺得都尊重啦但是對這個整個開發有什麼實質的意義只有看到民進黨的政府的行政效率6年9個月"},{"start":13614.767,"end":13630.061,"text":"才能夠把地址探勘才完成侯北可欣研究可能再搞10年所以用政府如果今天這個決議通過的話以後他照這個決議立法院決議的我照這個決議我再搞個15年"},{"start":13632.402,"end":13658.577,"text":"15年之後可行研究才通過其實我們這個案子裡面已經沒有提到預算了如果政府要編列編列沒有編列的話發國內或國際的BOTBOT國際的企業集團日本到東南亞做了這麼多的ODA做了這麼多的PPP都可以來做美國、歐洲都可以來做都很快我們一個地址大概要6年9個月"},{"start":13660.526,"end":13660.746,"text":"三黨的意見都不一樣齁"},{"start":13689.823,"end":13712.16,"text":"來請江林部回答一下主席剛剛那個胡孟俊委員提的有一點落差啦江林部資料是112年12月14號才開始地質調查地質調查不是6年9個月啦如果你以預計112年完成應該是3年啦江林部你回答一下啦就是我們是去年12月委託出去202312月到202612月是3年啦"},{"start":13716.323,"end":13716.843,"text":"好,順便再委員發言"},{"start":13745.489,"end":13772.844,"text":"台灣這個重大的交通建設不是第一次我一再的跟交通部提到北回鐵路北回鐵路民國六十幾年開始做它的難度絕對不會比這個國道六號的延伸到花蓮來的難"},{"start":13775.174,"end":13796.966,"text":"那個更難啊,鐵路北回鐵路啊,不是公路,不是高速公路啊鐵路啊所以要不要做而已所以這個地質調查探勘本來就會做啦為什麼這個時候會要提這樣的案這才是一個我們要去思考的本來就要做"},{"start":13801.913,"end":13820.949,"text":"他不做嗎?不做地質調查探勘研究嗎?樹花改要做新建的時候他不做地質調查探勘研究嗎?都有做本來就要做這個時候為什麼要提?這個時候為什麼要提?重點在這裡啊重點在這裡"},{"start":13828.717,"end":13857.539,"text":"本來就要做重點是為什麼這個時候要提對不對本來就要做啊好,鄭委員鄭委員對不對這個時候提這個才是政治扯這個扯不完啦因為國民黨還有國民黨的意見民進黨的委員他同意林國成委員修正的意見那國民黨不同意我看就表決吧是不是這樣同意不同意表決"},{"start":13859.158,"end":13879.966,"text":"同意不同意表決?要不要表決?要嗎?好那不然怎麼辦?那不然就一直扯就不要提,我的意思是說就不要提,提而反而是有政治的考量"},{"start":13892.402,"end":13907.486,"text":"那個工作人員發點涼茶給他們喝情緒不要激動不是啦就這麼一個案子因為我們下面大家緩和一點都立法院好同事嘛對不對"},{"start":13911.625,"end":13938.809,"text":"國民黨委員是不是同意民進黨委員這個提案?同意不同意?那不然這就表決了,我們民主的方式...好啦,因為我們後面還有案子要處理,我先清點人數好了"},{"start":13940.185,"end":13965.425,"text":"表決前幾點人數?在場主席委員13個人不含主席,已經足法定人數。我們現在進行表決。贊成這一個提案的請舉手。幾位?我不知道。手掌在他那裡我怎麼知道?你講的話我收回去。"},{"start":13967.247,"end":13995.029,"text":"好六位齁戰爭者六位反對者請舉手一、二、三、四、五七個七個好七位齁反對者七位反對者多數本案不通過好手放下來了好本案不通過"},{"start":13999.039,"end":14026.137,"text":"好,登記質詢委員就已經發言完畢做以下的決定報告及詢答完畢二、委員林益君、黃仁、許智傑、陳本瑜、陳柏楊所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報三、委員與質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部盡速以書面答覆現在開始國道六號東"},{"start":14029.176,"end":14041.507,"text":"東延花蓮建設特別條例草案的竹條審查並進行協商。為了不浪費大家時間,我們就在原位進行。在進入竹條討論前,先請議事人員宣讀條文。請宣讀。"},{"start":14045.618,"end":14072.641,"text":"副分析委員等53人擬具:「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案。」案。第一條為推動東西地區交通建設平衡區域發展,促進觀光產業,改善交通用品質,增進居民福祉特殊利益本條例本條例,為規定者適用其他法律規定。第二條本條例主管計畫為交通目的。第三條為順利推動國道六號東延花蓮計畫之整體交通建設與發展。中央主管計畫應用本條例通過後立即啟動可行性評估每半年檢討一次並設置中部橫貫公路高"},{"start":14073.381,"end":14088.19,"text":"橫貫高速公路建設推動委員會並邀請交通部國家發展委員會、地方政務協的專家等人共同組成由交通部部長擔任召集人及設置要點由行政院定制中部橫貫高速公路建設推動委員會應於一年內擬定國道六號東延花蓮建設推動發展計畫綱項"},{"start":14089.531,"end":14108.837,"text":"每半年檢討一次全部計劃之建設完成以不逾10年為限第4條主管計劃因依據國道六號東延花蓮建設推動發展計劃更要配合施工工程進展需要擬定之綜合建設方案其內容如下一方案目標及實施方案二公路沿線建設規劃三土地徵收取得市環境六號保護"},{"start":14109.477,"end":14139.077,"text":"五、配合天然公共資源開發六、天然災害防治七、分期實施計劃及執行分工八、分期財務需求及經費來源九、其他第五條為加速推動國道六號東延花蓮之建設與發展本田所需建設經費來源等一下列方式一、促進民間參與與公共建設法辦理採用民間興建營運後轉移模式二、採用國際照搬方式以興建營運後轉移模式三、引進國際主權財富基金採用興建後轉移模式"},{"start":14140.038,"end":14143.941,"text":"是由中央執行機關便利預算辦理執前身"},{"start":14145.151,"end":14172.943,"text":"由中央機關編列預算辦理所需經費來源得以舉借債務或出售政府所需的事業股份方式辦理不受公共債務法第5條有關每年度舉債額度之限制中央主管機關會配合前項之建設工程計劃進展因涉之國道六號東延花蓮發展建設基金作為本推動條例之各項永續發展文化保障之資金規劃與需求該基金之收入之"},{"start":14173.743,"end":14186.421,"text":"保管及運用方式由新聞電視第6條中主管機關意義永續發展為目標結合在地文化與公共環境保護人工景觀自然生態等特色作為推動本計劃沿線整體交通建設與發展技藝化自然圖並推動發展相關優質產業第7條"},{"start":14189.065,"end":14216.93,"text":"中央主管機關因擬立相關計畫對本條例新建後沿線土地開發取得而受影響,致援助民有關生活、文化保存、育醫保障並輔導援助民參與自然資源維護與經營管理及提供相關就業機會。第8條本條例自公布實施本條例實施日程由主管機關定之。宣傳完畢。那個跟本案沒有關係的海運、空運、觀光"},{"start":14218.137,"end":14244.11,"text":"官員請回。請回。謝謝你們,早上辛苦了。跟本案沒有關係,可以先回去了。沒關係。好,我們現在開始協商。法案的名稱。國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例"},{"start":14245.567,"end":14269.253,"text":"條文的第一條沒有沒有,要先名稱,先問我有沒有意見名稱有沒有意見?名稱沒有意見齁?好,名稱沒有意見,通過條文裡面第一條,各位有沒有意見?民產有沒有意見?有齁?有的話表決這不是表決齁?"},{"start":14277.401,"end":14283.183,"text":"好了,把這個結算。不用表決?表決比較快啊。"},{"start":14309.198,"end":14336.524,"text":"一條一條來第二條有沒有意見草保留第三條第四條第五條第六條第七條大聲一點嘛我聽不到"},{"start":14337.881,"end":14366.937,"text":"第七條?第八條?法案名稱是照案通過好,法案名稱我們就照案通過,大家沒意見了齁?協商完成,宣告協商結論如下法案名稱照案通過第一條至第八條均保留,送院會處理請問各位委員照剛才宣告的協商結論通過,有沒有異議?"},{"start":14368.697,"end":14388.188,"text":"沒有異議嗎?沒有異議就通過了。好,針對本日會議做以下的決議。一、討論事項所列國道六號東延花蓮建設條例特別條例草案。案、審查完異具審查報告提報院會討論。二、院會討論前請問各位委員是否須交黨團協商?要嗎?"},{"start":14399.818,"end":14425.565,"text":"好,需交黨上協商因為討論的時候由陳召集委員陳雪生補充說明本日議程處理完畢,現在休息明天上午九點鐘繼續開會接下來協商協商?還有啊?不是,沒有協商跟委員會好,休息現在不是休息什麼?"},{"start":14428.616,"end":14430.598,"text":"告知委員長王國材指揮長王國材指揮長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}