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說得非常的好啊,所以臺北地院就不想背鍋啊趕快發新聞稿啊,說你們一開始的時候就沒有限制出境啊人跑的臺北地院的新聞稿啊,在暗指什麼?在暗指是檢察官的責任啊那我現在就具體問一個事情嘛"},{"start":550.482,"end":560.652,"text":"當初在台北地院審理的過程當中林秉文因倒庭而沒有倒庭立體的檢察官在睡覺嗎?有任何積極的作為嗎?"},{"start":562.472,"end":579.04,"text":"這個是沈立松的被告齁,要不要限制出境出海或者是整個羈押或交保那個,我想這個要尊重法院新北,新北地院齁,這個是法院的職權法院的職權嘛,但檢察官發現該道的人部長,請你把問題聽完好嗎?請你把問題聽完好嗎?"},{"start":587.028,"end":590.37,"text":"在審判程序當中立庭的檢察官發現人不見了不用促請法院為職權的發動嗎?具體的回答什麼時候發現他不見什麼時候促請法院為職權的處理"},{"start":612.543,"end":617.126,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":638.666,"end":665.745,"text":"那個主席啊是不是可以跟部長溝通一下等我問題問完請他回答問題可以嗎是不是可以主席請部長回答問題就針對問題回答不要插嘴可以嗎因為這樣子的話社會大眾關心的根本就不知道我問什麼他答什麼嘛"},{"start":668.038,"end":696.759,"text":"是不是可以請主席處理?麻煩部長,請針對問題回答。好,謝謝主席。部長,我來請教一次。立庭的檢察官發現該到庭的人沒有到庭了,什麼時候促請院方為職權的發動?有做這件事嗎?檢察官有跟法院表示說請依法處理。什麼時候跟法院做這樣的表示?"},{"start":698.011,"end":724.024,"text":"當庭就這樣處理了?當庭就這樣表達?當庭這樣處理喔?對,這樣表達是在哪一個庭裡面?幾月幾號的庭?這個是在12月12月5號和議庭和議庭的時候就12月5號的時候才請法院處請法院依照職權處理嗎?我為什麼拿這件事情出來問?"},{"start":725.572,"end":744.909,"text":"社會大眾很憤怒啊大家看不下去啊不是只有一樁啊先是小民啊再來是瑞生銀樓的啊再來是林秉文啊大家關係好的消息都很靈通啊人就跑啦結果今天部長您是這種態度"},{"start":746.96,"end":764.448,"text":"防腐好像檢察官可以做的全部都做了他跑檢方也沒辦法也很無奈是這樣嗎這個是我們現在檢方辦案的態度嗎來請教部長人抓的回來嗎"},{"start":767.104,"end":778.299,"text":"12月26號開庭再來拘提笑死人啦人現在就已經在國外了現在是期待什麼他自己坐飛機回來開庭讓你們拘提喔太可笑啦"},{"start":780.137,"end":809.417,"text":"上一次我請教我們的檢察總長所基層的檢察官看不下去請法務部開課要學習怎麼被媒體經營然後總長說你不是很清楚沒有關係從上次質詢完到現在我相信總長有去了解基層的檢察官點名北檢的檢察長高檢的檢察長檢察總長是歷史罪人我再強調一次這不是我說的這是基層的檢察官看不下去"},{"start":811.089,"end":817.49,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":841.297,"end":860.977,"text":"然後呢10月25號跟我說分案處理了依照偵查不公開檢討小組會議依法查明真相來請總長您10月25號發函到現在目前查處的狀況如何跟委員報告喔委員提到的問題喔"},{"start":863.68,"end":877.427,"text":"這個偵查不公開的問題是個很重要2017年施改國事會議的決議那剛剛委員那天指導之後我們有交到台高檢署他們現在正在調查中因為現在正在偵查中他們無法調卷但是"},{"start":878.885,"end":900.28,"text":"那天回來之後我們要請我們檢察官這個研究之後我們又研究了一個對策就是這個建議事項其中有一點我們建議參考美國的法制定令、偵查、保密令把證人、證人還有一些相關的人都列入這個規範的範圍而且提高法律的位階提高刑案"},{"start":901.081,"end":907.647,"text":"另外,對於多島機制,我們建議把外部委員納入。"},{"start":918.971,"end":947.37,"text":"你覺得啊,你說要給證人,基本上像是美國的Gaggo Oat,這個我知道,但問題是,這個跟我所檢舉的案子有什麼關係?所以你們現在是在懷疑說這個秘密證人自己去外面講嗎?這個當然是有關係啦,因為這個偵查不公開已經是歷史上一個問題,事實上在立法上...請你針對問題回答,所以IMB的案子你們認為是這個秘密證人自己跑去跟進周刊講嗎?是嗎?"},{"start":949.87,"end":976.639,"text":"是嗎?全部查無不法,全部牽結,你找不到誰洩密嗎?那所以啊,就以IMB的案子來講啊,這個命令證人嚇得半死,我還安排他去北檢作證,結果你們的對策是要給證人gaggle out,那所以呢在這個案子裡面你們是嚴重懷疑這個證人自己跑去跟淨州開洩密喔?有這麼蠢的事喔?"},{"start":978.34,"end":985.505,"text":"有這麼蠢的事喔!跟委員報告齁這個是週刊他是有跟那個"},{"start":986.926,"end":994.171,"text":"關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1014.585,"end":1019.728,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1038.615,"end":1061.209,"text":"全部都沒有檢方的人15個人全部都警察來對我們斯坦國事會議做了這麼重要的結論了以後最後查處出來的結果全部都警察檢方的一個都沒有對這樣查處的結果部長你滿不滿意我相信我們檢察官在偵辦建築會嚴守偵查不公開的一個規定"},{"start":1065.08,"end":1082.634,"text":"檢察官當然嚴格遵守偵查不公開的規定。那等於是2017年的時候司改國是會議做的這個決議全部都是廢話因為大家都遵守嘛2017年的時候遵守2024年也遵守嘛過去這7年查出來最後怎麼樣"},{"start":1084.847,"end":1107.736,"text":"過去這7年查出來一個檢方的都沒有全部都警察我們不能說就是來不好意思主席最後一個問題今天法務部的預算我看了預算了以後來來來法務部112年、113年、114年每一年都有編一般事務費辦理部外聯繫、考察及新聞發布大概都編了大概150萬這個錢拿來幹嘛的"},{"start":1114.043,"end":1138.337,"text":"這個錢拿來幹嘛的?這個錢編在你的預算書裡拿來幹嘛的你應該很清楚啊?這個是屬於這個是就是跟記者就是以來記者來參訪來了解我們法務部的各項業務及所屬間的推動的情形去辦記者的參訪嘛法務部所屬各項推動的狀況嘛來我們看一下實際實踐的結果2023年"},{"start":1143.038,"end":1145.481,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":1155.558,"end":1160.382,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1177.554,"end":1178.915,"text":"五、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":1200.718,"end":1200.738,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":1221.039,"end":1231.491,"text":"適合還是不適合?這個我們這個預算本來就是要做...本來就是要做這個事的嘛!我不是要做這個事喔!這個我要做一個澄清喔!這個我們就是要做了解...請你針對問題回答!錢這樣子花適合不適合?錢這樣子花適合不適合?"},{"start":1240.198,"end":1254.478,"text":"請部長你就直接回答我們的委員的問題啊到底適合不適合我們是落實執行我們這個預算的一個執行這個是跟媒體落實預算的執行喔那等於是當初過這個預算的委員不對啊"},{"start":1255.359,"end":1256.7,"text":"稍等稍等稍等稍等"},{"start":1276.447,"end":1283.942,"text":"記者招待這個不是說什麼招待這個到記者室我們也會安排其他的參訪行程是所以我請教你去飛行劇場做了什麼簡報"},{"start":1288.063,"end":1290.304,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":1317.23,"end":1327.919,"text":"二、審查2024年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分"},{"start":1346.107,"end":1374.633,"text":"晚上喝成這樣喔這都是現場的照片啊我為什麼挑出來講很多檢察官在問嘛要教一教開課教大家怎麼經營媒體關係啊我秀給大家看要怎麼經營啊就這樣子經營嘛經營得很好啊這個預算我一定提案三法務部要捍衛我也OK"},{"start":1375.663,"end":1388.757,"text":"你要去找這些記者來圍剿我,我也沒有關係,但我的信念是什麼?納稅人的錢不可以這樣花!來,出國,來來來,接下來請馮誠署長。參加國民國際透明組織這場考察花了多少錢?"},{"start":1398.707,"end":1411.142,"text":"我們的這個預算的部分用的不多我們是使用那個外交部有給我們大概300萬的錢國防部有給我們50萬的錢那主要是負責全部都是國家的錢嘛對但是那個所以總共花了多少錢"},{"start":1412.481,"end":1417.745,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":1440.326,"end":1465.981,"text":"跟委員報告一下齁其實我們在國際中連政交朋友這件事情我們其實是蠻用心的是是是這個我了解所以我才具體的請教完你這個考察完最重要的啟示是什麼你有寫在出國報告你你忘了嗎你忘了你在裡面寫什麼嗎我很用心欸把你們去的我全部都拜讀完欸所以我才請教你嘛你最重要的啟示是什麼"},{"start":1467.401,"end":1495.92,"text":"我跟委員說齁其實我們這一次去齁大概像我們每次出國的時候齁我們都是希望在跟國際間齁在那反貪腐這件事是!對就是說所以你最重要的啟示是什麼?你講兩點出來就好啦第一就是反貪腐的一個經驗上的交流嘛然後第二就是增加我們國際間的一個能見度只有這樣齁?我認為是這樣是最重要的那你還記不記得你這個出國報告寫了什麼?你還記得嗎?這出國報告是你寫的嗎?"},{"start":1496.857,"end":1518.724,"text":"出國報告不是我寫的不是你寫的啊你在出國報告表示了什麼你記不記得出國報告裡面的內容蠻多的啊是是是是是所以我沒有問你嘛我沒有要你背行程給我聽嘛我只說你最後去參訪的這個你得到的啟示是什麼嗎這個有這麼困難嗎那我跟你講啦我覺得我們來我給你看啊"},{"start":1519.949,"end":1549.21,"text":"去完了以後說什麼?馮署長關於立陶宛施行接避者保護法立陶宛的接避者保護法是只有公部門還是公司部門都受規範?法務委員齁跟您先再澄清一下我並不是出去玩的在這一次沒關係你出去進行非常重要的考察那結果你的結論立陶宛的吹哨者保護法是只有公部門還是公司部門都有?跟委員報告立陶宛的這個接避者保護法是公私並行的"},{"start":1550.049,"end":1577.892,"text":"你想起來了嗎?你想起來你在這個報告表示什麼了嗎?不是想起來,我不知道委員要問這一個部分啦那因為報告的東西蠻多的嘛來參加亞太經濟合作組織APEC第39次反貪腐極透明化工作會議去的是沈鳳梁副署長嗎?沈副署長有來嗎?他沒有來沒有來嗎?OK好,沒關係我下次有機會的時候再請教不好意思喔,再用一點時間,謝謝"},{"start":1581.949,"end":1582.676,"text":"現在請陳俊宇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":882,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩請法務部鄭部長、最高檢察署邢檢察總長、廉政署馮署長、臺北地檢署檢察長、新北地檢署檢察長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：各位早。時間的關係不一一問候，時間緊迫直接切入。有關於就業安定基金被濫用的事情，我在衛環委員會直接點出來用公帑買了東西，跑去送私人親友，甚至在招標的過程當中跟廠商有圖利綁標的問題，這件事情新北地檢署動作非常快，我先肯定。","下一個問題，不是只有這一百多萬買禮品有問題，現在審計部大概簡單的看了一下就有五千多萬遭到濫用，就這個部分檢方啟動偵辦了嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分臺北地檢署已經立案偵辦。"],["黃委員國昌：臺北地檢署已經立案偵辦了，有列被告嗎？許銘春是不是被告？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個有告發，所以許銘春是算被告。"],["黃委員國昌：陳菊是被告嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前不是。"],["黃委員國昌：目前不是，告發的對象只有許銘春嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：許銘春。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子的辦案有沒有上限？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個就尊重檢察官的偵辦，檢察官是證據到哪裡就辦到哪裡。"],["黃委員國昌：好、很好，大家都聽到，拭目以待喔！新北地檢署辦謝宜容，大家認為民進黨政府的斷點，辦得很快，往上辦的時候，辦的速度、辦的角度、辦的深度就是社會大眾關注的重點，不要到時候檢方辦出來的結果比審計部做的還糟糕，是不是會這樣？我不知道，不預設立場，我們接下來繼續往下看。","88黑金洗錢集團這個事情，我還在民間社會的時候，從2022年就持續追蹤，我一路追蹤下來必須要老實講，政府說要打詐、要打洗錢，辦這些案子卻辦得零零落落。我為什麼這樣講？先從「小明」郭哲敏開始講，當初去88會館的檢察官把他放走，好不容易抓回來，追究檢察官的責任，我從2023年一路問新北地檢署什麼時候要給行政調查報告？結果我今年8月拿到的行政調查報告說是一切合法、沒有違失。所以現在法務部的立場是，針對這個先去88會館接受招待，然後又把「小明」郭哲敏放掉的檢察官，連社會上面普遍印象不佳的監察院都彈劾了，但是你們的行政調查報告是一切合法、沒有違失。對於新北地檢所交出來這樣子的行政調查報告，請問法務部背書嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分，有關於去88會館的這些檢察官，我想……"],["黃委員國昌：請針對問題回答，我沒有那麼多時間，不好意思。新北地檢作的行政調查報告法務部是不是背書？這個問題非常的簡單明瞭。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們尊重新北的行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：尊重新北地檢署。請新北地檢署檢察長。"],["余檢察長麗貞：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣的行政調查報告等於是在幫這位檢察官背書，認為監察院的彈劾沒有道理，是這樣嗎？"],["余檢察長麗貞：這部分已經寫在報告上，我們認為檢察官當時在……"],["黃委員國昌：我瞭解，你們的報告我全部都拜讀了，就是回給我的公文嘛！但我現在的問題是什麼？從2023年的3月到2024年的8月，連監察院都彈劾了，你們的行政調查報告還是一切合法、沒有違失，讓人看了瞠目結舌啊！所以以新北地檢署的立場來講，監察院的彈劾不當，是這樣嗎？"],["余檢察長麗貞：我們尊重監察院的調查報告……"],["黃委員國昌：在接下來懲戒法庭的審理過程當中，新北地檢會力挺這位檢察官是嗎？"],["余檢察長麗貞：目前沒有通知我們去……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係啊！你們實際上的作為是怎麼面對自家人的？一個檢察官跑去88會館，後來把他放了，你們的行政調查報告是一切合法、沒有違失，標準比監察院還要低，讓人瞠目結舌啊！有問題的還不是「小明」耶！這些有關係的人都很厲害，涂誠文一樣！偵辦涂誠文地下匯兌洗錢案，檢警跑到睿森銀樓的私人招待所，這個都是客觀確認的事實啊！已經是洗錢犯的犯罪嫌疑人，還有檢警跑去睿森銀樓的地下私人招待所，如出一轍、模式一模一樣，涂誠文跑了！請問一下，現在涂誠文到案沒有？有人知道嗎？有人關心嗎？有人在意嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：涂誠文現在在通緝中。"],["黃委員國昌：在通緝中？通緝多久了？怎麼跑的？我上一次問的時候說要偵辦，偵辦的進度如何？查無不法、謝謝指教！這不是第一次問，我上次問的時候，說要分案偵辦嘛！怎麼跑的？調查局局長請上來。不好意思，部長，你的問題還沒有回答，他的問題是下一個。現在偵辦的進度如何？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在涂誠文……"],["黃委員國昌：是哪一個地檢署在辦？"],["鄭部長銘謙：現在臺北地檢署……"],["黃委員國昌：來，臺北地檢署，偵辦的進度如何？"],["王檢察長俊力：因為他目前通緝中，我們有……"],["黃委員國昌：他當然在通緝中嘛！要不然你們在偵辦什麼？我上次問的時候就是問人怎麼跑的嘛！這麼厲害，都招待檢警，事前都收到風聲，都有辦法先跑，涂誠文、郭哲敏的模式不是一模一樣嗎？這些詐欺、洗錢的、有設招待所的都知道可以先跑，大家都這麼厲害？上次問你們，你們說要分案偵辦，偵辦的進度如何？"],["王檢察長俊力：報告委員，這個通緝就是分案，另外……"],["黃委員國昌：這個通緝就是辦案？"],["王檢察長俊力：是，另外我們針對這個案子，有發動拘提搜索，另外也有五個被告也都被聲押獲准，所以這個案子我們有繼續在偵辦當中。"],["黃委員國昌：就洩密的部分呢？"],["王檢察長俊力：我們也會查。"],["黃委員國昌：查的進度呢？"],["王檢察長俊力：我們要根據檢察官蒐證的情況。"],["黃委員國昌：所以到目前為止沒有進展嘛！是吧？"],["王檢察長俊力：目前為止，我們仍然在努力當中……"],["黃委員國昌：請調查局局長。這個人有在調查局的通緝查報的專刊上嗎？重大的犯罪，調查局有一個通緝犯查緝通報的系統嗎？"],["陳局長白立：查緝外逃的……是，有。"],["黃委員國昌：照片都要出來嘛！"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["黃委員國昌：他有嗎？"],["陳局長白立：這個部分我要……"],["黃委員國昌：調查局的同仁協助一下，你確認以後再上來回答這個問題。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["黃委員國昌：接下來更扯，第三個，林秉文，一樣是88會館，我們鄭文燦的「麻吉」林秉文一樣，88會館洗錢，現在人到哪裡去了？部長有沒有掌握？"],["鄭部長銘謙：林秉文這個案件，現在因為已經起訴了，法院在審理中，這個……"],["黃委員國昌：你說得非常好啊！所以臺北地院就不想背鍋，趕快發新聞稿，說你們一開始的時候就沒有限制出境，人跑了！臺北地院的新聞稿在暗指什麼？在暗指是檢察官的責任。我現在就具體問一個事情，當初在臺北地院審理的過程當中，林秉文應到庭而沒有到庭，蒞庭的檢察官在睡覺嗎？有任何積極的作為嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是審理中的被告，要不要限制出境、出海或者是整個羈押或交保，我想這要尊重法院，新北地院……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有錯啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是法院的職權。"],["黃委員國昌：法院的職權嘛！但是檢察官發現該到的人……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們沒有聲請權，要跟委員報告，在審理中的被告，我們檢察官並沒有聲請權。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，請你把問題聽完好嗎？請你把問題聽完好嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們法律上如果有給我們這樣的權力，我們就可以聲請。"],["黃委員國昌：在審判程序當中，蒞庭的檢察官發現人不見了，不用促請法院為職權的發動嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們檢察不是毫無作為，我們檢察有請依法處理，這個也會根據刑事訴訟法，有關於要定期報到、限制出境、出海……"],["黃委員國昌：好，具體回答，什麼時候發現他不見、什麼時候促請法院為職權的處理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：促請，我們當然可以促請，但是在法律上，我們並沒有聲請權，所以我們沒有違背職務的問題，我們沒有失職。"],["黃委員國昌：所以有促請嗎？請針對問題回答就好。"],["鄭部長銘謙：請依法處理，這就叫……"],["黃委員國昌：好，你說檢察官什麼時候跟法官說？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為法官可以依照刑事訴訟法有關防逃相關的機制來做處理，這是法院的職權，我們檢方必須要遵守法律。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，是不是可以跟部長溝通一下，等我問題問完，請他回答問題？可以嗎？主席，是不是可以請部長回答問題，就針對問題回答，不要插嘴？可以嗎？因為這樣子，社會大眾關心的人，根本就不知道我問什麼、他答什麼嘛！是不是可以請主席處理？"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：麻煩部長請針對問題回答。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席。部長，我來請教一次，蒞庭的檢察官發現該到庭的人沒有到庭了，什麼時候促請院方為職權的發動？有做這件事嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：檢察官有跟法院表示請依法處理。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候跟法院做這樣的表示？"],["鄭部長銘謙：當庭就這樣處理了，當庭就這樣表達。"],["黃委員國昌：當庭這樣處理喔？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，這樣表達。"],["黃委員國昌：是在哪一個庭裡面，幾月幾號的庭？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是在12月5日合議庭的時候，就……"],["黃委員國昌：12月5日的時候，才請法院促請法院依照職權處理嘛！我為什麼拿這件事情出來問？社會大眾很憤怒，大家看不下去，不是只有一樁，先是小明，再來是睿森銀樓的，再來是林秉文，大家關係好的消息都很靈通，人就跑了。結果今天部長您是這種態度，彷彿好像檢察官可以做的全部都做了，他跑了，檢方也沒辦法、也很無奈，是這樣嗎？這是現在檢方辦案的態度嗎？請教部長，人抓得回來嗎？12月26日開庭，再來拘提，笑死人啦！人現在就已經在國外了，現在是期待什麼？他自己坐飛機回來開庭，讓你們拘提？太可笑了！上一次，我請教檢察總長，基層的檢察官看不下去，請法務部開課，要學習怎麼被媒體經營，然後總長說不是很清楚，沒有關係，從上次質詢完到現在，我相信總長有去了解。基層的檢察官點名北檢的檢察長、高檢的檢察長、檢察總長是歷史罪人，我再強調一次，這不是我說的，這是基層的檢察官看不下去，直接跳出來控訴，上一次我也問了，我帶im.B的秘密證人去北檢，結果內容被鏡週刊寫出來，我去告發，沒有人知道，結果記者直接把我的名字寫出來。我上次追進度，我們一個一個來，總長說痛心疾首，然後10月25日跟我說分案處理了，依照偵查不公開檢討小組會議，依法查明真相。請總長，您10月25日發函到現在，目前查處的狀況如何？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：跟委員報告，委員提到的問題，偵查不公開的問題是個很重要，事實上也……"],["黃委員國昌：是，2017年司改國是會議的決議嘛！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：委員那天指導之後，我們有交到臺高檢署，他們現在正在調查中，因為現在正在偵查中，他們無法調卷，但是那天回來之後，我們有請檢察官研究，有研究了一個對策，建議事項其中有一點，我們是建議參考美國的法制，訂定偵查保密令，把證人還有一些相關的人都列入規範的範圍，而且提高法律的位階、提高刑度。另外，對於督導機制，我們是建議把外部委員納入……"],["黃委員國昌：總長，不好意思，你書面的東西，會後給我就好了，因為我……"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：這個也很重要，要說明一下重點……"],["黃委員國昌：因為我來是要跟你溝通的。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你說要給證人基本上像是美國的gag order，這個我知道，但問題是這跟我所檢舉的案子有什麼關係？所以你們現在是在懷疑這個秘密證人自己去外面講嗎？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：這個當然是有關係，因為偵查不公開已經是歷史上的一個問題，事實上在立法上千瘡百孔……"],["黃委員國昌：是，請你針對問題回答。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：所以要解決問題要從根本上來解決……"],["黃委員國昌：所以im.B的案子，你們認為是秘密證人自己跑去跟鏡週刊講嗎？是嗎？全部查無不法、全部簽結，你找不到誰洩密嘛！所以就以im.B的案子來講，這個秘密證人嚇得半死，我還安排他去北檢作證，結果你們的對策是要給證人gag order，所以在這個案子裡面，你們是嚴重懷疑這個證人自己跑去跟鏡週刊洩密？有這麼蠢的事！有這麼蠢的事？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，週刊是有跟陳姓人士求證才做這樣的報導，這個是我們有開庭做求證的。"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！你講的就是陳歐珀嘛！重點是什麼？重點是週刊去問陳歐珀的時候，他怎麼知道秘密證人去講陳歐珀什麼？他一定是知道秘密證人去講陳歐珀什麼，才請陳歐珀回應、幫他洗地嘛！上次我請教你的時候，我說過去這7年從司改國是會議到現在，有多少人被追究，你跟我說處分15人，我請你把15人的名單交給我，結果交出來，我一看，哇！瞠目結舌，厲害了！15個人，全部都警察，沒有檢方的人，全部都沒有檢方的人，15個人全部都警察。對於我們司改國是會議作了這麼重要的結論以後，最後查處出來的結果全部都是警察，檢方的一個都沒有！部長對於這個查處的結果滿不滿意？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信我們檢察官在偵辦案件時會嚴守偵查不公開的規定，這部分我們也都是有……"],["黃委員國昌：檢察官當然會嚴格遵守偵查不公開的規定。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我相信。"],["黃委員國昌：那等於是2017年的時候司改國是會議作了這個決議全部都是廢話！因為大家都遵守嘛！2017年的時候遵守，2024年也遵守嘛！過去這7年查出來最後怎麼樣？過去這7年查出來一個檢方的都沒有，全部都是警察！"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們不能說就是……"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，主席，最後一個問題。今天法務部的預算，我看了預算以後，法務部112年、113年、114年每一年都有編「一般事務費─辦理部外聯繫、考察及新聞發布」，大概都編了約150萬，這個錢是拿來幹嘛的？這個錢編在你的預算書裡是拿來幹嘛的，你應該很清楚啊！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是記者來參訪、瞭解我們法務部的各項業務及所屬機關的推動情形。"],["黃委員國昌：好，去辦理記者的參訪，瞭解法務部所屬各項推動的狀況。我們來看一下實際實踐的結果，2023年辦了兩天一夜遊，我看了這個行程真是非常地充實，在高鐵站的會議室進行40分鐘的簡報，我看了覺得很詫異，進行簡報要在高鐵站的會議室，怎麼不在法務部的會議室？原來要從高鐵站出發去參訪，參訪完了全部都是吃喝玩樂，錢是這樣花的噢！部長。你看裡面的行程……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個不是吃喝玩樂，我要跟委員說明，我們是利用各種場合做宣導。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：並不是宣導就只有作簡報，這個行程本來就是要作簡報嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：所以一定要去酒店才能宣導，對不對？"],["鄭部長銘謙：你到機關去的時候，也是要實際去瞭解機關業務推動的情形嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以一定要去酒店才能宣導嘛！然後開會的時候要在高鐵站的會議室嘛！錢是不是這樣花？我問你，部長，你覺得適合不適合嘛！你覺得適合，我也給你機會回答，你就大大方方地跟全體納稅人講「我法務部認為錢這樣花適合」，你就大大方方這樣講嘛！錢這樣花適不適合？請問部長，適合還是不適合？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們編這個預算本來就是要做……"],["黃委員國昌：本來就是要做這個事的嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是要做這個事，我要做個澄清，我們就是要讓人瞭解業務推動的情形。我們在做簡報……"],["黃委員國昌：好，我就問你，請你針對問題回答，錢這樣子花適合不適合？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們這樣……"],["黃委員國昌：錢這樣花適合不適合？你就給大家一個答案嘛！"],["主席：請部長就直接回答我們委員的問題，到底適合不適合嘛？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們是落實預算的執行，這個跟媒體……"],["黃委員國昌：是落實預算的執行啊！等於是當初過這個預算的委員不對，竟然給你錢拿去做這種事！"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且委員，作簡報、做報告並不是只在高鐵站，我們作簡報到每個機關都要實地去瞭解各個機關業務推動的情形。"],["黃委員國昌：可以，我們請教一下，你去i-Ride飛行劇場做了什麼簡報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是……當然，記者招待……這也不是什麼招待，到記者室我們也會安排其他的參訪行程。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我請教你去飛行劇場做了什麼簡報？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是搭配的嘛！到機關做簡報，我們會就其他一些……除了實地的參訪，當然我們會安排其他的參觀行程。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，因為我把行程全部都調出來了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們的參觀行程的簡報，本來就是到機關實地參訪的時候做的嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：我把行程全部都調出來了，適不適合這樣做？全體的納稅人心裡會有一把尺嘛！我今天只是要部長一個態度，你也可以說適合啊！這個行程很充實啊！一樣啊！2024年礁溪林美高爾夫球場，一樣啊！我有說錯嗎？11點簡報到下午2點，含中餐，其他的時間全部都在吃喝玩樂，我有說錯嗎？","這是現場的照片啊！我再給大家看，晚上喝成這樣噢！這都是現場的照片啊！我為什麼挑出來講？很多檢察官在問，要開課教一教大家怎麼經營媒體關係，我就秀給大家看要怎麼經營，就這樣子經營嘛！經營得很好啊！這個預算我一定提案刪，法務部要捍衛我也OK，你要去找這些記者來圍剿我，我也沒有關係，但我的信念是什麼？納稅人的錢不可以這樣花！","接下來出國的部分請馮成署長。參加國際透明組織這場考察花了多少錢？"],["馮署長成：我們的預算用得不多，我們是使用外交部給我們大概300萬的錢，國防部也給我們50萬的錢，主要是負責……"],["黃委員國昌：全部都是國家的錢嘛！"],["馮署長成：對，但是那個是……"],["黃委員國昌：所以總共是花了多少錢？"],["馮署長成：近400萬。"],["黃委員國昌：近400萬嘛！好，這個是考察。花了400萬的考察，給你最重要的啟示是什麼？"],["馮署長成：報告，不是說去考察花了400萬，而是指我們在整個透明晶質獎跟……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！國際透明組織的主席這次來臺灣我也跟他見面了。我請教你，做完了這個考察，你最重要的啟示是什麼？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告一下，其實我們在國際中，廉政交朋友這件事情是滿用心的。"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個我瞭解，所以我才具體地請教，你這個考察完最重要的啟示是什麼？你有寫在出國報告裡，你忘了嗎？你忘了你在裡面寫什麼嗎？我很用心耶！把你們去的全部都拜讀完了耶！所以我才請教你嘛！你最重要的啟示是什麼？"],["馮署長成：跟委員說，其實我們這次去，大概像我們每次出國的時候，我們都希望跟國際間針對反貪腐這件事……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["馮署長成：就是說……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你最重要的啟示是什麼？你講兩點出來就好了啊！"],["馮署長成：就是在反貪腐經驗上的交流嘛！第二就是增加我們國際間的能見度。"],["黃委員國昌：只有這樣噢！"],["馮署長成：我認為這是最重要的。"],["黃委員國昌：你還記不記得你在出國報告中寫了什麼？你還記得嗎？這個出國報告是你寫的嗎？"],["馮署長成：出國報告不是我寫的。"],["黃委員國昌：不是你寫的，那你在出國報告表示了什麼，你記不記得？"],["馮署長成：出國報告裡面的內容滿多的，委員是指哪一個部分？"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以我沒有問你，我沒有要你背行程給我聽，我只說你最後去參訪得到的啟示是什麼？這個有這麼困難嗎？"],["馮署長成：我也講了，我覺得我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我給你看，去玩了以後說什麼？馮署長提問，關於立陶宛施行的揭弊者保護法，立陶宛的揭弊者保護法是只有公部門還是公、私部門都受規範？"],["馮署長成：報告委員，先跟您澄清一下，我並不是出去玩的，在這次……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，你出去進行非常重要的考察。"],["馮署長成：是。"],["黃委員國昌：結果你的結論，立陶宛的吹哨者保護法是只有公部門還是公、私部門都有？"],["馮署長成：跟委員報告，立陶宛的揭弊者保護法是公、私並行的。"],["黃委員國昌：你想起來了嘛！你想起來你在這個報告表示什麼了嘛！"],["馮署長成：不是想起來，我不知道委員要問這個部分，因為報告裡的東西滿多的。"],["黃委員國昌：參加亞太經濟合作組織（APEC）第三十九次反貪腐及透明化工作會議，去的是沈鳳樑副署長，沈副署長有來嗎？"],["馮署長成：他沒有來。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有來嘛！OK，沒關係，下次有機會再請教，不好意思，占用了一點時間，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}