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11:07:48","會議時間":"2024-12-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分。\n二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分。\n三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支部分。\n四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪被害人保護協會114年度預算書案。\n五、併案審查\n（一）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案。\n【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答；預算提案於12月24日中午12時截止收件】\n【12月18日及19日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.262218750000001,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.25284375,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.62784375,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.387218750000002,"end":17.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.52596875,"end":24.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.58409375,"end":26.406593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.06471875,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.143468750000004,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.345968750000004,"end":38.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.48471875,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.90221875,"end":41.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.150968750000004,"end":47.078468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.078468750000006,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.44971875,"end":48.040343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.76159375,"end":49.930343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.33534375,"end":52.377218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.27159375,"end":55.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.49034375,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.22409375,"end":64.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.38346875,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.66534375,"end":73.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.83346875000001,"end":77.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.42346875,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.45284375,"end":81.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.60409375,"end":86.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.85284375,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.52346875,"end":91.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.15534375,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.71846875000001,"end":110.42721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.44409375000001,"end":110.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.91659375,"end":112.26659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.53659375000001,"end":112.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.19471875,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.13971875,"end":116.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.40534375,"end":115.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.04221875,"end":118.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.05846875,"end":125.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.78346875000001,"end":128.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.01909375,"end":141.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.51534375,"end":143.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.03784375,"end":151.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.46721875,"end":155.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.59721875,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.00971875000002,"end":166.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.69221875000002,"end":176.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.67846875,"end":179.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.80409375000002,"end":200.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.19346875000002,"end":210.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.73596875,"end":218.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.50721875000002,"end":223.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.24909375000001,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.52721875,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.46784375000001,"end":231.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.71159375000002,"end":237.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.96846875000003,"end":239.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.60096875000002,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.32221875000002,"end":245.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.07659375000003,"end":252.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.54846875,"end":257.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.02034375,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.38721875,"end":259.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.12971875,"end":261.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.98534375,"end":265.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.11159375,"end":269.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.60034375000004,"end":274.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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就職大典我今天很感慨就是我們一直強調司法獨立法務部的所作所為民眾都看在眼裡"},{"start":399.005,"end":422.194,"text":"報告委員九關陳先生他的遺囑就是有兩家一般的受刑人是一家就足夠了所以原則上他兩家我建議啊就要找十家啦都來證明說他的健康這個仍然是需要在外面這個治療而且還要給他各種各樣不同的職能訓練所以你這邊講的你雙龍人的職能訓練還只能夠在監獄裡面辦啊"},{"start":427.324,"end":455.096,"text":"那也跟委員報告因為台中監獄在國慶當天也有另外派人到現場去做相關的瞭解。主長你現在講這些話就是我都不知道怎麼說對不對第一個你該不該核准他這違背了你們當時說是可以讓陳水扁保外就醫的原則你根本不應該核准就你還派個專員去陪他這是成何體統啊然後另外我還要再講的就是"},{"start":456.543,"end":459.346,"text":"陳水扁到現在已經停審多少年了?請問今天那個檢察長有來嗎?就是針對這個案子。"},{"start":471.748,"end":473.23,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":489.793,"end":495.236,"text":"二、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":514.465,"end":525.994,"text":"是只有兩次吧?還是一次?我最近看到只有一次北檢應該有好幾次喔北檢到底有多少次?今天北檢有沒有來?是"},{"start":534.307,"end":551.943,"text":"有關於陳水扁先生他在臺北地院庭審的這個部分我回去立刻查證以後來跟委員報告你要立刻查證我上次才請你們發紅給我我看只有一次啊你們從104年到現在將近10年了你們只有提出一次你們對得起國人嗎"},{"start":561.024,"end":578.344,"text":"收刑人不是都應該要同樣的主意嗎?停審司法院停審也是不應該那你們也應該要一直全要請求要恢復要恢復審判是恢復審理你們也沒有啊10年才一次"},{"start":580.185,"end":581.506,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":609.741,"end":627.91,"text":"法務部需要司法院我們還需要嗎?因為你們做的這些作為已經讓國人對司法失去信心就是權貴司法看看最近的南韓國會通過了總統彈劾案立刻就送到憲法法庭在過去朴槿惠總統"},{"start":639.804,"end":642.585,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":667.063,"end":676.266,"text":"從蔡英文到賴清德現在都不願意給這個陳水扁特赦但是回到你們法務部的問題回到司法院的問題我真的是拜託法務部矯正署還有我們的地檢署就是請你們要拿出這個骨氣好不好司法的脊樑在你們身上啊"},{"start":696.561,"end":708.166,"text":"不要讓國人看到這個今年矯正署周署長的回覆,看到高檢署竟然只有一次提出申請,這個實在是讓國民真的不能接受這樣子的一個做法。"},{"start":716.789,"end":743.268,"text":"我這個我之後會做一個決議啦或是其實今天我就要求你們以後每個月都要持續的提出這個請求法院要對陳水扁的案子進行審理一個每個月提出不不為過吧責任就不在你們的身上了接下來就看法院怎麼做請問部長還有這個高檢署的這個檢察長可以做到嗎"},{"start":746.036,"end":773.693,"text":"這個我們來努力。好,那鄒署長,那你呢?我會持續來就保衛醫治這個部分依規定來嚴格把關。依規定。我跟你說,不要逼我去修你們保衛醫治的條例喔。這樣子的話不要,這個因為陳水扁的案例,他已經是一個破口。我實在是覺得說你們矯正署不應該這樣子做。"},{"start":776.906,"end":778.107,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1224,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時54分）有請法務部部長，還有矯正署周署長。"],["主席：請部長跟署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長好，署長好。法務部非常清楚了解，本席很在意的事情就是針對保外就醫的事情，我現在想請周署長，能不能告訴我到底現在有多少受刑人是保外就醫？截至目前為止。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們保外就醫的人數每個月都會有所變動。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以最新的數字呢？"],["周署長輝煌：最新的數字是不是稍候一下……報告委員目前有四百多人。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，保外就醫的受刑人最長的是保外就醫多少年？"],["周署長輝煌：這邊到10月底止……"],["翁委員曉玲：矯正署長……"],["周署長輝煌：最長目前這邊是沒有資訊。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有資訊？超過9年以上的受刑人有多少人？"],["周署長輝煌：因為保外醫治它不是每一年統計，比如是三年前出去累計的，或是當年度出去的，有時候會有不同……"],["翁委員曉玲：太驚訝了！"],["周署長輝煌：最多應該是23年。"],["翁委員曉玲：什麼？"],["周署長輝煌：23年，我們現有……"],["翁委員曉玲：最長是23年，超過9年的呢？有多少受刑人？我很驚訝矯正署竟然沒有相關統計數字，而且這是很重要的訊息呀！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，上一次我們有提供一些數據給委員，但是因為它的統計有基準點的不確定性。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有關係，你就以上次提供給我的數據有多少人嘛！我的意思是說，這難道不是矯正署很重要的業務，結果你現在反而來問我，說我記不記得！請問今天其他監獄的典獄長有在嗎？是不是都可以來彙報一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，我們是不是用書面來做一個答復？"],["翁委員曉玲：我跟你講現在這樣的情況，你說我怎麼能夠不好好的去檢視矯正署的預算，連這個最基本的數字都答不出來，我本來其實不太想再提保外就醫這件事情，特別針對矯正署周署長，其實我對周署長很尊敬，我完全沒有要特別去挑剔矯正署。但是我今天看到矯正署的報告，我有感而發，你說要提升矯正機關的能見度，要妥適調整收容人的技能訓練職類，我看到這個部分，其實我的感想是矯正署不需要有太多的經費去做矯正機關的能見度，只要陳水扁他多參加幾次活動，你們矯正署就有名了啦！","可以告訴我一下保外就醫的情況──現在相關的法律規定，陳水扁的情況是符合保外就醫的規定嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，我們保外就醫是以審查基準配合他的醫囑由臺中監獄……"],["翁委員曉玲：好。"],["周署長輝煌：它每個月都會派人去……"],["翁委員曉玲：臺中監獄的典獄長有來嗎？有嗎？沒有，下次審查預算的時候，我希望他到。","你們都沒有懷疑那個醫囑有問題嗎？明眼人都知道，陳水扁他早就已經恢復了身體的健康，都還可以出席賴清德總統的就職大典，口才辨給、頭腦清楚、身體健康良好，今天換成是任何一個受刑人有這樣的處遇嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，有關這一次國慶大典，陳水扁先生也是在前一天才確定能夠出席，因為這是國慶籌備委員會邀請，然後他……"],["翁委員曉玲：他確定能夠出席是不是要經過你的核准？請問一下署長，要不要經過你的核准？"],["周署長輝煌：他要報我們臺中監獄，會讓我們知道。"],["翁委員曉玲：只是讓你們知道，不需要經過你們核准喔！你們之前講的那些原則都是寫好看的嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：他是因為國籌會的邀請，然後總統府也有再電話邀請他。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們可以拒絕國籌會的邀請，什麼叫做司法獨立？署長，什麼叫做司法獨立？國籌會的邀請你們可以拒絕，是不是？"],["周署長輝煌：因為我們也配合醫囑，醫囑方面覺得他參加這種所謂的國慶大典對他的身心狀況是有正面的幫助。"],["翁委員曉玲：署長，你每次講這個話，我把它剪起來放在我的短影片上面，你知道有多少的民眾覺得署長你今天發言真是不可思議啊！如果你認為陳水扁今天參加總統就職大典是有助於他的身心健康的恢復，為什麼不把所有的受刑人都邀請去參加總統的就職大典？我今天很感慨的是，我們一直強調司法獨立，法務部的所作所為民眾都看在眼裡。"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，有關陳先生的醫囑有兩家，一般的受刑人是一家就足夠了，所以原則上……"],["翁委員曉玲：喔！他有兩家，我建議最好找10家，都來證明他的健康仍然需要在外面治療，而且還要給他各種各樣不同的職能訓練，所以你這邊講的收容人職能訓練還只能夠在監獄裡面辦啊！"],["周署長輝煌：因為臺中監獄在國慶當天也有另外派人到現場做相關的了解。"],["翁委員曉玲：署長，你今天講這些話讓我都不知道怎麼說，第一個，你該不該核准他？這違背了你們當時說可以讓陳水扁保外就醫的原則，你根本不應該核准，結果你還派一個專員去陪他，這成何體統啊！另外，陳水扁案到現在已經停審多少年了？請問今天檢察長有來嗎？就是針對這個案子的承辦地檢署。"],["鄭部長銘謙：有些案件在臺高院審理中，有些是臺北地院審理中，這部分有停止審理，我們檢察官都有促請……"],["翁委員曉玲：請問到目前為止促請了幾次？"],["鄭部長銘謙：像二次金改的，就是國泰併世華案這部分停審是在104年，北檢有好幾次發函、高檢另以補充理由書來促請高院繼續審判，次數我這邊是沒有數據。"],["翁委員曉玲：促請幾次不知道？法務部不曉得？幾次？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我另外再請他們提供；另外教唆偽證案……"],["翁委員曉玲：是只有2次吧！還是1次？我最近看到只有1次。"],["鄭部長銘謙：北檢應該有好幾次。"],["翁委員曉玲：北檢到底有多少次？今天北檢有沒有來？"],["王檢察長俊力：有關於陳水扁先生在臺北地院停審的部分，我回去立刻查證後再來跟委員報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：你要立刻查證，我上次才請你們發文給我，我看只有1次啊！你們從104年到現在將近10年了，你們只有提出1次，你們對得起國人嗎？受刑人不是都應該受到同樣的處遇？司法院停審也是不應該，你們也應該要依職權，要請求、要恢復審判、審理，你們也沒有啊！10年才1次！陳水扁的狀況你們應該是每天都要提出聲請，而不是10年才1次，上次有個案子法律追訴期都已經經過了，坦白說，因為我作為法律人，我又是法學教授，其實我應該要維護司法院、法務部的相關預算，可是你們的所作所為真的讓我覺得我們需要法務部、需要司法院嗎？我們還需要嗎？因為你們這些作為已經讓國人對司法失去信心，現在就是權貴司法，看看最近的南韓，國會通過了總統彈劾案，立刻就送到憲法法庭；過去朴槿惠總統彈劾案通過之後被判刑入獄，人家也是乖乖坐牢啊！之後文在寅總統給她特赦，讓她提早17年出獄，法治國就要這樣做，但從蔡英文到賴清德，現在都不願意給陳水扁特赦，那就回到你們法務部的問題上、回到司法院的問題上，我真的是拜託法務部矯正署和地檢署，請你們要拿出骨氣，好不好？司法的脊梁在你們身上啊！不要讓國人看到今天矯正署周署長的回復，看到高檢署竟然只有1次提出聲請，這實在是讓國民真的不能接受這樣的作法。我之後會作一個決議，其實今天我就要求你們，以後每個月都要持續的提出，請求法院要對陳水扁的案子進行審理，每個月提出不為過吧！責任就不在你們身上了，接下來就看法院怎麼做。請問部長和高檢署的檢察長可以做到嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們來努力。"],["翁委員曉玲：周署長，那你呢？"],["周署長輝煌：我們會持續就保外醫治這個部分依規定來嚴格把關。"],["翁委員曉玲：依規定？我跟你說，不要逼我去修你們保外醫治的條例，因為陳水扁的案例，他已經是個破口，我實在是覺得你們矯正署不應該這樣子做，因為陳水扁而害了其他真正需要保外就醫的受刑人，以上。希望你們每個月提出聲請，副本要給我，讓我知道，謝謝。"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲代）：接下來是麥玉珍委員，麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在。","接下來有請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}