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824.86,"end":1825.481,"text":"特別收入基金"},{"start":1839.835,"end":1853.431,"text":"離島建設基金一業務計劃應據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整二基金來源用途及輿促一基金來源元月9億零152萬2千元配合123年度中央政府總預算審議結果"},{"start":1855.601,"end":1873.145,"text":"簡略國家發展基金會第12目非營業特種基金第一屆離島建設基金向下補充離島建設基金中設備及投資3,420萬元本項因隨同修正簡略政府撥入收入向下供戶撥款收入3,420萬元改列為8億6,732萬2千元二基金目途9億59萬9千元照列三原本"},{"start":1881.747,"end":1901.934,"text":"原列本期剩餘92萬3千元,減列3420萬元,改列為短處3327萬7千元,三截角工庫,五列數,四通過決議八項,三特別收入基金,花東地區永續發展基金,一業務計劃,一應據基金來源與用途審查結果,隨同調整,二基金來源用途及餘處,"},{"start":1902.694,"end":1925.398,"text":"一、基金來源600萬元二、基金用途27億零629萬1千元三、本期短促27億零29萬1千元均照列三、結繳公庫列數四、通過決議三項四、特別收入基金促進轉型正義基金一、業務計畫因依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整二、基金來源用途給予促一、基金來源6918萬1千元二、基金用途1億6274萬8千元三、本期短促"},{"start":1932.299,"end":1958.278,"text":"九千三百五十六萬七千元均照列三節繳工庫列數四通過決議五項一百一三年四月十一日星期四討論事項一審查一行政院行政審議遠洋一月條例第十四條之一、第三十六條之一及第四十七條條文修正草案案討論事項合併詢答委員邱振軍、楊瓊英、王傑、吳立華與李玉琳及張雅琳說明提案要旨"},{"start":1959.5,"end":1977.239,"text":"農業部代理部長陳俊濟報告後委員林黛樺等21人提出質詢均由農業部代理部長及原民會經發處長宋麗如及相關人員及其答覆登記發言委員處不在場走開局域經與發言完畢訓導結束委員陳冠廷及邱正軍所提出的質詢列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":1978.48,"end":1997.716,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆部分請交案單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會二委員邱振均等18案拟據遠洋漁業條例部分條文修正草案案三委員楊瓊英等21人拟據遠洋漁業條例增訂第14條之一及第38條之一條文草案決議依第三條條文照委員邱振均等人提案通過"},{"start":1999.569,"end":2022.514,"text":"2.第14條之1條文3.第36條之1條文4.第47條條文均照行政院提案通過5.併案審查完略拒拒審查報告提報委員會討論不需教育的黨團學商並推請秋招級委員議員院會討論時作補充說明2.審查1.行政院函勤審議野生動物保育法部分條文修正草案案2.委員鄭天才等人3.委員賴樂榮等人4.委員黃婕等人5."},{"start":2024.995,"end":2053.631,"text":"委員吳立華等人6、委員郭育晴等人分別擬具《野生動物保育法》部分條文修正草案案7、委員李玉玲等人擬具《野生動物保育法》第19條、第21條及第21條之一條文修正草案案8、委員張雅瑩等人擬具《野生動物保育法》部分條文修正草案案決議1、第二條條文照行政提案通過2、委員郭育晴等人提案第4條條文不予通過維持現行法條文"},{"start":2055.257,"end":2070.541,"text":"3、第19條條文所有提案及委員楊瓊英等人及委員林黛樺、關乎吳立華等人分別所提修正動議均保留、送院會處理。 4、第21條條文所有提案及委員林黛樺、關乎吳立華等人所提修正動議均保留、送院會處理。 5、第21條"},{"start":2072.802,"end":2091.969,"text":"之一條文所有提案及委員林丹化、關火、吳立華等人所提修正公益均保留、送卷會處理六委員張雅玲等人提案第31條條文不予通過維持現行法條文七第37條條文八第50條之一條文九第51條條文均照行政院提案通過十第51條之一"},{"start":2094.637,"end":2121.203,"text":"條文所有提案及委員張啟凱、瓜虎、高金、素梅等人所提修正動議均保留送院會處理。11.第52條條文造行論提案通過12通過附帶決議兩項,13附帶決議一項保留送院會處理。14.並按審查文據拟據審查報告提報院會討論需交由黨團協商並推請秋招及委員與院會討論時作補充說明。主席宣告通過決議之文字及條文相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理、散會、宣讀而畢。"},{"start":2127.142,"end":2134.907,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金。今日詢答宣讀完畢"},{"start":2153.339,"end":2167.541,"text":"那本日議程所列討論事項為審查113年度經濟部主管附屬單位預算非營業部分的尋答那首先我們請經濟部王美花部長請做報告"},{"start":2177.485,"end":2184.649,"text":"主席各位委員那今天經濟部就主管的4個作業基金非營業的作業基金來跟各位委員做報告那第一個是經濟的作業基金那這個主要是包括這個科技產業園區的作業基金跟產業園區開發的管理基金那這個主要就是之前的這個加工出口區的作業基金跟"},{"start":2201.564,"end":2207.793,"text":"工業局的這個管理基金這兩個部分那名稱做修正的部分那在113年度業務的總收入是83億2000餘元總支出是76億5000餘元那剩餘的是6億6000餘元"},{"start":2217.526,"end":2217.566,"text":"第11屆第1會議"},{"start":2236.517,"end":2243.802,"text":"科技產業園區作業基金辦理男子科業產業園區第三園區的用地取得以及高軟第二園區的第一棟大樓的興建計畫。第二個水資源作業基金主要是有包括水庫經營管理跟河川輸菌的管理輸菌跟清淤以及發電以及觀光等等四大項還有包括溫泉政策規劃跟技術的研究發展"},{"start":2265.416,"end":2269.859,"text":"那在113年度的業務收入有91億1千餘元業務的支出是110億200餘元那短處18億8千餘元那較112年度增加短處7億2千餘元那主要是配合擴大清淤那辦理入化作業跟增加抽泥沙以致積水的銷貨成本增加另外烏溪鳥嘴潭工程"},{"start":2292.914,"end":2294.976,"text":"依照計畫在112年已經完成了土石標售作業所以113年度就減編相關土石銷售的收入那在固定資產的建設部分113年度計畫13億9千餘元"},{"start":2308.485,"end":2333.556,"text":"主要是辦理中央管河川的數據工程用地徵收以及大安大甲溪聯通管的大甲溪輸水管工程的建設第三項是經濟特別收入基金主要包括經濟部下面的推廣貿易基金、能源研究發展基金石油基金、再生能源發展基金以及中小企業發展基金等等"},{"start":2334.457,"end":2348.991,"text":"主要當然就包括負責貿易推廣的工作、能源研究發展的工作政府的儲油、石油開發跟技術研究的計畫再生能源的推廣計畫、中小企業的發展計畫特別是針對新創中小企業加強資金融通"},{"start":2354.937,"end":2356.84,"text":"出盡轉型升級優化相關的輔導措施那在113年度的這個預算來源有254億2000餘元用途有225億3000餘元"},{"start":2369.434,"end":2375.156,"text":"那剩餘的是28億9千餘元,較112年度增加剩餘24億7千餘元那這個主要是供庫的撥款收入增加所致那第四大項就是核能發電的後端營運基金那這個主要包括低放射廢棄物的處理跟儲存計畫"},{"start":2391.343,"end":2413.569,"text":"低放射廢棄物的最終處置計劃用過核燃料的儲存計劃用過核燃料最終處置計劃以及核子設施除役拆廠及其廢棄物處理跟最終處置的計劃等等各項工作那113年度的基金來源是267億7千餘元用途是64億4千餘元剩餘有203億餘元"},{"start":2419.31,"end":2424.335,"text":"叫112年度增加剩餘6億9千餘元：這個主要是預估長期的貸款購買公債金額增加以及利率上升利息的收入增加所致以上是本部的非營業基金113年度的預算的簡要的說明 敬請各位指教"},{"start":2446.871,"end":2455.01,"text":"好 謝謝部長的報告 那麼在場委員足以三人請問上次會議意思錄有無異我們意思錄確認 那麼現在呢"},{"start":2457.355,"end":2482.975,"text":"我們每位在報告結束之後我們現在進行詢答委員質詢前依照慣例主席台做幾項的宣布每位委員發言的時間本委員會6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘非本委會4分鐘必要時延長1分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記我們請登記第一位的林黛樺委員請做發言謝謝有請部長"},{"start":2486.297,"end":2510.399,"text":"我們請王部長我們缺水危機正在來襲而且是更加嚴重今天我們政府應該嚴陣以待包括今天我們的報導是頭條水情景超越百年大旱"},{"start":2513.731,"end":2532.157,"text":"市門蓄水率剩24%可以說是我們前三大水庫依照剛才最新的一個水庫的狀況前三大水庫幾乎都是平均20幾%而已的蓄水量本期就針對極端氣候下的降水"},{"start":2533.317,"end":2551.864,"text":"請請跟缺水也正在進行的狀態以及用水政策跟配套跟您做的這個討論以及最後本期的具體要求好在極端氣候下呢本期在3月的時候也這個向中央氣象署所知了既然我們台灣每月的11"},{"start":2553.084,"end":2570.355,"text":"每年5月至10月是枯水期,每年5月至10月是豐水期,而豐水期的水源來源兩個,第一個是梅雨,第二個是颱風。按照今年中央氣象署的研判,在今年豐水期當中3至5月以及6至8月北中南東"},{"start":2571.736,"end":2583.37,"text":"下雨是正常偏少的颱風在西北太平洋的颱風是正常偏少的所以雨量每雨颱風都是偏正常偏少"},{"start":2584.741,"end":2606.107,"text":"那缺水的部分呢過去都是17、8年一個大循環什麼大循環呢一個大旱一個這個大水現在已經縮短7到9年就是一個大旱跟大水所以臺灣長期仰賴水庫的供水氣候變遷的這個時代甚至我們在將近30年前發生了臺灣歷年56年來首次沒有颱風入境而也發生最大規模的乾旱"},{"start":2613.649,"end":2633.87,"text":"那目前這個我們的水情拉緊抱水量也持續下降21座的水庫14座的蓄水量是不到4成其中8座的蓄水量是跌破3成雖然這個今天下了大雨是天佑台灣了但是對集水區的水土狀態"},{"start":2636.152,"end":2650.737,"text":"有了大旱之後有了大水那個水質那個地表一定是不穩定的再加上我們在來了7.6的震7.6級的這個地震所以我想這個積水區的相關的"},{"start":2652.288,"end":2668.615,"text":"地質狀況：水土保持狀況也要請在這邊本席也提出提醒那對於用水政策既然今年都可以預估是缺水的你們是怎麼調配民生、農業、工業用水呢目前這個強水的狀態會是什麼樣的"},{"start":2672.156,"end":2686.601,"text":"的這個調配呢那部長以及針對4月的春季跟5月的梅雨如果降雨情形不加颱風季節所帶雨量又減少你又如何面對缺水以及相關的這個配套呢"},{"start":2687.386,"end":2699.197,"text":"部長您請回應一下現在所有民生大家都在關心的確實今年的這個春雨還不是很理想但是跟百年大旱比起來其實都還有這個相關的降雨"},{"start":2702.961,"end":2716.125,"text":"百年大憾的時候如果大家記得那是連雨都不下那第二個呢在枯水期的時候我們都加強這個工業用水的節水都希望他們能夠盡量節水那另外呢在相關的民生跟農業的部分我們也都精準的來調配那當然也希望大家能夠節約用水那台灣枯"},{"start":2726.808,"end":2731.05,"text":"這個枯水期跟風水期它的差距確實都比較多不過對這個全球的氣候變遷的部分所以我們相關的水的韌性計畫不斷的增加這個南北水的調動跟供應那這個就是現在還在持續增加你講到供水的韌性這句話也就是本期最後的具體建議了"},{"start":2751.579,"end":2772.495,"text":"你的供水任性你主責就是在這個水利署跟水公司臺灣的缺水狀態是道屬全我們是全世界可以說排名第10名我記得10來1名18還10幾名的缺水的國家那是因為自來水但是呢"},{"start":2772.935,"end":2788.365,"text":"自來水公司這家公司我不曉得他怎麼因應你講的供水任性他用他自己的現在是破千億的負債他用他破千億的負債為國家貢獻了什麼從92年的24.5%降至12.54%20年之內他降了12.4%的漏水量"},{"start":2799.092,"end":2826.226,"text":"這個的數字跟日本東西來講是有過之而無不及這完全是他破千億的空穴那水既然是日常生活不可或缺的民生必需品本席都認為自來水管線就是基礎建設的一環這句話部長你認不認同自來水管線是基礎是我們自認供水任性的基礎建設的一環你認不認同"},{"start":2827.987,"end":2850.272,"text":"是或不是當然是全臺灣自來水管都是臺水所有臺水公司也是百分百政府持股那行政院就應該重視既然他是自來水的是我們基礎建設為什麼他的維護太壞全部都是由他"},{"start":2851.565,"end":2851.585,"text":"國營事業營運"},{"start":2870.8,"end":2874.582,"text":"一千億其實是相關的這個金流的問題那台水公司的這個管線的汰換那事實上在前瞻計畫也有相關的經費支出部長我直接點給你聽很明顯你不曉得細節所以你就不曉得要怎麼去支持台水了"},{"start":2886.987,"end":2903.512,"text":"這個破千億第一個水電的增加你只要漲水漲電他們也就是用電大戶那再來呢你的管線的維修你即使你的專管有政府支持所有的管線的維修也是他"},{"start":2904.292,"end":2919.818,"text":"第三個落水管的預算也是他第四個因為他已經負債千億了利息也是他連你剛才講的我們的這個如果是因為缺水而導致休耕這樣是誰來補誰來補水利署跟台水補"},{"start":2924.733,"end":2950.218,"text":"所以再來你又限制他什麼限制他說你這個他的水費要不要增加是中央決定所以呢連本席一再的呼籲說你們應該增加這個用水大戶千度以上的用水大戶的級距給台水收針對這個用水你也不同意你反而叫做用作耗水耗水費耗水費誰收啊你旁邊的水利署在收"},{"start":2951.599,"end":2976.619,"text":"我都不曉得臺水已經負債遷移投入所有的公共建設然後呢 剛才講的全部甚至連這個這個修根之後他也要補助水利署也補助那他也要補這叫做什麼話 郵供 那個台語怎麼說 郵供沒什麼啦 怕破怕破沒破就對了 怕破要破問題是怕破 人家都破 人家都是他都破的"},{"start":2980.442,"end":3007.878,"text":"所以我不曉得這個今天主計處上來一下主計處主席有請主計處我們請主計處這個經濟部雖然你有針對本席的意見去跟主計總處說行政院說好那他的虧損我分兩年本席要求用兩年來補結果主計說這虧損如果是這樣的話所有這個各國營事業如果虧損的話那是不是都要行政院來補"},{"start":3009.485,"end":3032.17,"text":"那他的意思是這樣他的回文是這樣嘛那我不曉得來水利那個主計總書這邊您來我已經講得很清楚了包括台水是63年以前他不是全部國營所有他是63到67年如果我印象沒錯這4年他才是把所有各縣市政府的水管"},{"start":3033.07,"end":3049.248,"text":"整個才收歸那時候的這個省政府之後才作為國有所以在63年以前的基礎建設是所有都是地方自己做的品質之差不好意思全部都是要水公司國營事業全部來負擔"},{"start":3050.749,"end":3072.331,"text":"所以它的基礎跟台、跟電、跟油是不一樣的所以我不曉得主計總組來雖然您來的這個關節不高但是既然你來了你就替我這樣的說明本席這樣的一個陳述你認為這個主計處還有什麼理由不補台水"},{"start":3073.464,"end":3090.88,"text":"在他的這個破千億的情況之下你現在又講到我們部長很好他還講很多目標剛才說他還要增加供水韌性全部都台水你自己扶啦除了專管是政府出其他全部都台水自己扶我不曉得這樣公司他要怎麼經營欸來 主計總署"},{"start":3097.419,"end":3114.239,"text":"謝謝委員的質詢,就有關臺水這個部分的話,其實主席總署針對臺水的一些相關可能投資上可能不具效益的一些公共重大公共建設的話,其實主席總署都有做一個政治的一個挹注來協助那個臺水他辦理一些基礎的水域建設"},{"start":3115.182,"end":3137.25,"text":"好 那個您答的跟實際的好像都不太一樣因為我剛剛已經講得很清楚了所有它虧損的狀況包括公共建設的狀況那這個中央除了補專管之外其他為富貸款都是它處理所以所有的全部都是它自己然後呢 所以我在這邊具體要求政府應該由中央政府編列相關的預算給台水"},{"start":3138.27,"end":3148.423,"text":"用這個附屬年的這個專案補助給台水那或者納入第5期也就是明年要審的114年1到8月第5期的前瞻計畫基礎建設部長這可以嗎"},{"start":3151.764,"end":3154.786,"text":"我只是針對它的基礎建設我還沒講到它的虧損的部分、借債的部分謝謝委員支持那經濟部確實會幫台水來爭取相關的公務預算來給它做撥補那我們會提出80億元的相關的撥補經費那當然希望院裡面能夠支持80億太少了"},{"start":3177.017,"end":3184.782,"text":"真的,除非你叫供水韌性這四個字你會講到台電力韌性供水韌性在你經濟部如果你只貶80億的話那你後續所有的台積電現在全台灣都在開花這是好事你的那個耗水量之高啊我都不曉得你的這個供水韌性在哪裡這請你嚴肅的面對,謝謝我們後續檢討,好謝謝"},{"start":3208.206,"end":3209.487,"text":"主席我想請部長我們再請外媒部長"},{"start":3225.899,"end":3252.914,"text":"部長雖然您在520之後不會繼續留任部長的職位也有可能會高升那但是你是蔡政府這8年來任職最長的經濟部長從2020到2024整整4年就算未來繼任的郭志輝也要叫你一聲學姐所以我在這裡呢要請問一下這個學姐部長你敢不敢保證說今年不會有限電危機"},{"start":3254.59,"end":3270.898,"text":"不會,我們一定會把他做好穩定供電的這個工作請您不要忘了我們核三是今年7月即將要開始退役今年的電力系統幾乎都是您準備的核三到底有沒有準備要退役"},{"start":3272.155,"end":3284.154,"text":"河山按照原來的相關的規劃時程跟法規的規定確實到今年的1號季到今年的7月40年期所以是確定一定會"},{"start":3285.943,"end":3301.226,"text":"在目前的規範之下他一定是按照這樣子去走所以部長我另外一個小小的感慨就是說你們不顧民意不顧立法院的要求一意孤行一定要漲電價結果電費漲了現在還要限電拿錢不辦事就是拿錢還限電沒有限電沒有限電我接下來要問的問題就要問你"},{"start":3313.909,"end":3327.973,"text":"希望你不要做虛偽不實的回答4月15號當天下午的6點至7點左右因為大潭8號機明潭456號機同時故障備轉容量只剩下3.2%是否屬實"},{"start":3331.655,"end":3353.964,"text":"這個確實當時是有這樣的情境是啊那這樣子所以4月15號那一天臺電內部到底有沒有接到指令說要為分區限電做好準備這個我沒有聽說這個我沒有聽說那主要是確實是因為地震之後那有的機組當天就故障那有的機組確實是之後你沒有聽說但是臺電的發言人在16號他就說"},{"start":3358.266,"end":3379.475,"text":"他就說絕對沒有討論要分區限電但是呢經過兩天部長現在告訴我說你完全沒有聽說說要分區限電到底是發言人說謊還是沒有如實的報告部長為什麼台電發言人第一時間要對外說謊這難道不用究責嗎"},{"start":3380.956,"end":3385.239,"text":"對不對為什麼這個總經理有沒有說謊報告委員我們在高層開會這是高層指示的嗎我們在開會的時候從來沒有指示下面要做限電的準備這個工作絕對沒有你看沒有做限電準備臺北ADCC基隆ADCC通知一中央CDCC"},{"start":3408.456,"end":3415.701,"text":"完整全文就是說 預計19點開始緊急執行分區輪流停電有沒有這個訊息這是你們內部群組的訊息喔這件事情發生之後我也在看到底為什麼會有這樣子的一個訊息出來是 所以 這非常嚴重以前用二發電不夠 現在用說法發電"},{"start":3435.214,"end":3451.078,"text":"我們的作為是這樣子就是要緊急分區輪流停電那個指令是從我們中央下去的他是說昨晚有收到要準備ADCC代表區域調度中心全台6個CDCC中央調度中心是你總管理處的26樓那部長我要請問一下他們在準備調度什麼是調度晚餐嗎跟委員報告"},{"start":3458.8,"end":3464.222,"text":"我們各個部門都有他自己的權責是不是 台電專屬的電力調度中心他已經在準備要輪流停電了你們對外一直在否認為什麼不面對現實為什麼不誠實的來告訴大家說我們的確是有能源危機呢跟委員報告當天的預估我們的備轉容量率還有6%以上只是在到了5點多的時候我想要問一下部長來部長我問你"},{"start":3486.889,"end":3496.336,"text":"我想要拜託你,你可以幫大家證實一下說到底有沒有這個訊息?到底有沒有這個訊息?就是說這個訊息是不是屬實?如果假設是假的,台電必須站出來辟謠啊怎麼可以放任這種謠言打擊台電的信譽呢?總經理我沒有請你講,我在問部長"},{"start":3511.006,"end":3515.309,"text":"我沒有收到這樣的訊息那我想是不是可以請部長徹查說到底是不是為什麼會有這個訊息呢我會請台電來了解但是我想地震造成的基礎相關的故障我們的台電同仁是用最快的速度來做修復我沒有在究責他們我的意思是說"},{"start":3533.379,"end":3543.586,"text":"這個調度準備不只是一兩個單位這是紙包不住火的去否認這個事實只是降低人民對台電的信任度另外一個證據是台電7點準備要限電第一個出來爆料的是誰你知道嗎是一個綠營的友軍網紅你看"},{"start":3553.21,"end":3571.332,"text":"王信網紅他說可以證實本來7點要限電所以我6點45才緊急呼籲大家要調高溫度關冷氣就差那麼一點點到底他是部長還是你是部長他比你還早知道要限電欸我想對網路上的各項訊息你有沒有什麼話要說"},{"start":3572.653,"end":3591.111,"text":"我想最主要還是以台電的這個相關的規範指令來執行 這個最準確啦我再跟部長講 相關證據真的非常多 台電4月15號當天的備載容量的時間圖顯示6點的時候就是一個低點 你有沒有看到"},{"start":3592.202,"end":3598.948,"text":"你有沒有看到假設這個還不夠明顯我再給你另外一張圖我們沒有說這個有問題那這個就是因為地震造成機組故障那所以為什麼他還要說謊呢為什麼他要說不會分區限電沒有準備要分區限電呢我們沒有說謊總經理是你的發言人說謊我沒有說你說謊"},{"start":3615.282,"end":3625.293,"text":"就是說來繼續看一下這個圖更明顯這個4月15號當天的電壓圖5點第一次微幅降壓有沒有看到"},{"start":3626.26,"end":3630.602,"text":"跟委員報告這就是為了要光電離線做準備在5點47分又大幅的下降這就代表當下供電可能已經出很大的問題了這麼明顯的證據在這麼危急的情況真的沒有要準備分區限電嗎?跟委員報告整個的問題是因為4月3號發生地震之後讓我們的很多的火力發電的機組的鍋爐我們的鍋爐長度裡面一個長度就是500公里的長度"},{"start":3655.034,"end":3655.674,"text":"主席可不可以請他"},{"start":3685.696,"end":3687.783,"text":"對不起你有什麼問題"},{"start":3689.642,"end":3714.407,"text":"我再請問一下部長請問備載容量降到3%就代表臺灣只剩下3%的電力全臺灣只剩下3%那是一線之隔全臺大停電欸到底各個調度中心有準備本來就是天經地義的事情啊這個準標準程序就應該做的事情如果經濟部跟臺電都一再否認那只有兩個可能"},{"start":3715.527,"end":3718.089,"text":"第一就是說謊明明準備要限電卻對外否認第二就是無能電力已經低到只剩3%結果各個調度單位都沒有啟動緊急準備正正意外調整的事故我們台灣人的想法就是趕快來修補"},{"start":3736.34,"end":3739.102,"text":"請問這整個狀況變成是只有說謊或無能之間你要選一個嗎?我只希望說你們要誠實努力來做這個事情就是要誠實我現在就想要知道說是不是你們團隊也跳電了?"},{"start":3758.433,"end":3759.974,"text":"還是你們現在是正在限電我們其實是非常努力來解決相關故障的排除的問題而且呢最後一個問題我問部長四一五限電危機發生之後聽說很多調度中心的值班人員都被查手機"},{"start":3774.02,"end":3790.041,"text":"要查說誰洩漏消息請問部長是不是有這個事情我不瞭解對你不瞭解如果有這種思維他就是典型的解決提出問題的人以為這樣就沒有問題了其實我們真正要檢討的是我們的能源政策啊怎麼會我們"},{"start":3792.544,"end":3812.774,"text":"三年已經補貼了你們四千零一億然後呢還要漲電價然後還要限電現在第一個也沒有限電第二個地震造成的這樣短期故障只剩3%就要全台灣停電了你告訴我不需要限電不要用粉飾太平的方式來補貼你不能想說我們想到的就是趕快來解決這樣的一個故障問題完全不是為了什麼所以部長我相信你"},{"start":3819.577,"end":3829.72,"text":"我相信你說你可能不知道但是呢這麼多的證據告訴你了部長你要徹查呀你要徹查因為本席剛剛所提的問題跟訊息跟圖片如果經濟部查的是屬實的話也請用書面回覆本席沒有問題我們可以跟委員報告謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":3847.13,"end":3861.997,"text":"好,接下來我們請內陸委員請做詢答那我也請行政部門因為是詢答所以呢等委員這個發言需要行政部門回答再回答好嗎?謝謝好,謝謝主席請部長,王部長跟王總經理好,我們請部長跟王總我先問一下啦,部長王總經理是台電的專業經理人現在最了解,我先問王總經理好了啦"},{"start":3876.262,"end":3884.627,"text":"呃 台電有沒有說謊報告委員 台電沒有說謊 台電沒有說謊4月15號有沒有這樣的限電危機呃 跟委員報告"},{"start":3887.028,"end":3909.688,"text":"在4月14號的時候其實我們已經看到一些狀況了那什麼狀況呢就是整個的地震所造成的那個機組的受傷害啊不是馬上發生的是陸陸續續在發生那原因就是因為我們的鍋爐啊很多都是這種所以都在台電的掌控之中嗎那有所謂產生所謂的限電危機或剛剛其他委員講的那些狀況嗎"},{"start":3910.569,"end":3919.136,"text":"那跟委員報告其實他最大的一個問題是在下午5點51分就是4月15號當天5點51分的時候發生了大潭的8號機有110萬千瓦的這麼大的一個量跳脫然後到了6點16分不到30分鐘"},{"start":3930.345,"end":3945.35,"text":"我們的那個在明潭那邊呢有一個巴士也是一座是地震這個是地震內傷內傷的話在那個瞬間他那個巴士故障之後導致我三部機組跳脫這兩個加起來就185萬的機組跳脫總共有6%的被轉容量率是一個這麼大的一個狀況發生這個從來在田安沒發生過我知道總經理那有限電的危機這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":3953.453,"end":3978.52,"text":"到了那個時機點是比較少我們的備轉容量剩下3%還是有3%嗎?還有3%比較緊張一點但是還在3%內是還在可控制的範圍內我覺得未來如果發生像這樣的事情我也建議台電要清楚對外的說明因為現在訊息太多了有時候甚至網路很多有時候會不斷的這樣傳以而傳而出劇流受反而會造成大家的一些困擾然後我建議台電其實可以"},{"start":3978.92,"end":4007.179,"text":"立即清楚的對外做說明所以第一個很清楚沒有說謊的問題第二個其實確實比較緊張那是因為4月3號之後的大陣包括後面的余陣所導致那我必須肯定啦臺電在4月3號那樣的大陣狀況下還維持得相當好其實這真的是不容易的所以我覺得還是給予臺電辛苦同仁要給予基本的肯定那至於產生了所謂這些後面的東西的時候我建議臺電都應該第一時間對外來澄清說明不要讓什麼好像對於發言人怎樣的這樣的傳"},{"start":4008.4,"end":4027.285,"text":"我覺得對於臺電整體上是不公平也是信譽上也是受損的所以我覺得這個也請未來這個王總經理這邊持續來推動讓更多正確的訊息第一時間讓社會知道穩定民心好不好好謝謝委員好部長剛剛其實王總都有講了部長應該都認同王總剛剛講的那個意見是"},{"start":4032.507,"end":4053.585,"text":"我想這個電力是一個相當複雜的問題我想這幾年台灣整個整體的我認為電力策略上大體方向都是正確的不管是從綠能的推動到整個這個儲能等等的甚至於很多穩定的供電系統的穩定等等我們做了很多的努力我也相信這個未來都會有很大的成果"},{"start":4054.666,"end":4072.195,"text":"我想我還是要對部長因為其實部長上任4年嘛上任4年那現在終於這個新的部長上來之後也可以稍微卸下重擔那我還是要肯定部長這4年來其實我們並肩作戰在國家在立法院這邊我看到其實從客觀數據來上這4年來經濟成長率3.5"},{"start":4075.837,"end":4087.873,"text":"是小龍的第一名所以我想不管怎麼樣的整體部長在這塊領導經濟部的團隊我想是值得肯定的那我想問一下部長接下來未來你會不會繼續留在內閣團隊連會大家服務"},{"start":4091.06,"end":4101.605,"text":"謝謝委員那我想經濟部長委員也知道那業務繁多那我每天想只要還在一天我就非常努力把我們經濟部的事情做好部長如果有機會繼續留在內閣團隊內也希望你能夠繼續為國家來服務謝謝委員鼓勵另外我想問一下郭志輝董事長"},{"start":4109.488,"end":4128.681,"text":"由產業界來接任這個確實是相當大的一個挑戰你也知道其實以臺灣的政治環境產業界過來是相當辛苦的是部長怎麼看待這樣的一個郭董事長願意來接任部長這樣的一個我想第一個產業界的人士而且是這樣的一個這麼大的事業公司的負責人願意為國家來承擔這個國家的產業的發展的政策"},{"start":4134.285,"end":4139.286,"text":"我們是非常的感激那他也願意為國家來做奉獻那我想這個我的任務就是趕快用最快的時間跟新任的部長來做你有沒有給新的部長有什麼樣的建議有我其實第一時間就跟新的部長聯繫那我也跟他說經濟部因為業務比較多那希望用比較多的時間來跟他做業務的這個交接我也希望部長"},{"start":4161.491,"end":4185.98,"text":"多多給予協助特別是很多經濟部的業務相當繁重而且相當瑣碎那有些部分像您長期在經濟部你當然就相對熟悉了解但是外面來的一個新的部長要熟悉業務需要點時間更何況以現在的朝野的方式恐怕不會給部長新的部長太多的時間所以我也希望部長大力來協助讓好不容易產業界的人有這樣的信心也有這樣的魄力願意進來國家來幫忙"},{"start":4187.501,"end":4202.206,"text":"我認為應該給予更多的鼓勵跟支持不然未來你看這幾任為什麼經濟部長幾乎都是由內部才有一些機會因為外面光看到立法院這種草野惡鬥這種狀況大概看到都怕了誰會願意放棄到外面的這麼好的一些狀況而願意投身到公眾服務來所以我覺得應該國家應該給予"},{"start":4205.666,"end":4229.195,"text":"多一點正面的鼓勵才會有更多的人才願意進到政府機關來從多面向來貢獻給國家請部長來大力支持另外我也想關心一下今天早上下了雨其實心理上是感覺是比較好的因為最近有點擔心這個水的問題北部的部分現在有幾個水庫的水量不到三成部長擔不擔心接下來的水情的狀況"},{"start":4230.569,"end":4254.413,"text":"現在是確實都還在枯水期但是已經是枯水期的比較末端了那這一段時間我們確實都會比較謹慎來調度跟相關的使用那我想我們每一天都針對這樣的一個枯水期來做所以水情還在掌控之中嘛省慎的之中水利署的同仁也都會在這樣的情況之下會定期來做檢視所以接下來"},{"start":4259.755,"end":4268.294,"text":"接下來開始有可能沒一起甚至於整個訊息的來臨之後其實應該水情會穩定下來我們希望我們希望所以應該是還好署長有沒有什麼看法補充還是"},{"start":4270.273,"end":4270.533,"text":"所以水情上是穩定嗎?"},{"start":4299.711,"end":4325.276,"text":"我們審慎的來因應 審慎因應南部的本委還是要提醒部長跟署長持續甚至於南部現在包括台積電不管是PE、P2、P3都陸續有到高雄來做投資的狀況水還是要持續那我希望未來在再生水廠甚至於海淡廠的部分還是請部長跟署長持續來規劃我覺得南部讓他的水情更加穩定對於整個產業的均衡發展都有相當大的一個注意"},{"start":4326.216,"end":4351.606,"text":"再來我想請教一下前天4月16日高雄沿海如果發生貨櫃車掉落鋼捲掉到地板這個一個都4噸5噸重這也不是只有前天發生其實這幾年來大概發生了這4年來發生了12件甚至有些發生了人命的問題"},{"start":4352.566,"end":4381.265,"text":"我希望部長跟局長能夠特別的去要求因為有些我們現在國企跟會議都在做了我們會加速來完成但是這些人為應該去防止發生的應該要去控制就是說不應該讓他不管是他的整個維護的系統沒做好還是他的車速過快等等我認為這個部分部長跟局長應該要去要求這些業者要更加甚至在出來的時候就要做更多的一些的要求跟把關"},{"start":4382.165,"end":4383.186,"text":"負債比較重大,如果沒有綁好會有意外,我們來加強跟他們做..."},{"start":4398.379,"end":4409.188,"text":"局長一個月內的時間給我一個檢討的報告好不好就怎麼樣的改善措施然後怎麼樣去提醒齁因為這每一個掉落下來運氣不好就是人命沒有錯運氣不好現在隨便壓下來動輒就是車輛受損甚至於動輒連整個所有的路牌整個全部都受損"},{"start":4418.017,"end":4431.496,"text":"安全是第一的如果沒有安全其實沒有其他可言所以我認為這個是產業發展或整個移居城市一個最重要的一環我們希望產業跟人命並重這兩者要去兼顧再來我請教一下"},{"start":4432.777,"end":4460.182,"text":"前鎮園區也謝謝部長大力支持有24億的一個新的一個計畫作但是接下來好幾個都在進行當中不管是B3的基地包括社區土地包括儲運用地的部分我希望部長跟局長持續來加速來推動這個是一個50年前就最好的一個加工出口區的地方那也謝謝部長我們改名了也給予一些更新了以後我希望後面這些的進度都能夠持續來推動"},{"start":4460.942,"end":4464.864,"text":"是 這個一定我也一直督促他們這個相關的這個精華地帶怎麼樣騰龍換鳥讓這個可以不斷的來更新那政府怎麼樣來協助廠商來做更新還有相關的公共建設的部分來支持"},{"start":4478.092,"end":4497.391,"text":"副長這個是不是也一樣請給我匯後給我你們整體的所有的一些進度好不好就是說這邊的更新的進度包括未來的規劃進度我們希望這個50年前臺灣經濟奇蹟的一個重要的起源地在經過整個執政之後我們讓它有一個更好的一個新的一個改變沒錯好不好那請匯後再把這些詳細的資料給我好謝謝"},{"start":4507.2,"end":4507.5,"text":"邱映英議員"},{"start":4529.336,"end":4542.804,"text":"委員長早部長我想今天這個在前幾天新的內閣公佈之後您是第一次到立法院來那心情上感覺怎樣感覺是好像快要畢業了會比較輕鬆一點呢還是"},{"start":4545.927,"end":4555.618,"text":"我看您今天有一點笑容過去其實在這麼龐大的業務壓力底下其實我還是要對經濟部尤其是王部長您領導的經濟部我要給你們一點鼓勵經濟部在這幾年來天災、地震"},{"start":4566.849,"end":4579.234,"text":"包括經濟上的危機處理我覺得王部長您非常的盡心盡力我覺得還是要給您跟您的團隊一些鼓勵那尤其這一次其實我們看到地震之後"},{"start":4581.116,"end":4600.114,"text":"花蓮規模這麼大的地震但是花蓮除了震倒的房屋那一帶以外其實沒有太多的停電那當然這兩天開始會有一些陸續的這些比如說這幾天桃園兩天就跳電了4次我想"},{"start":4602.752,"end":4627.549,"text":"臺電過去在我們在做韌性電網的這一塊前瞻的計畫裡頭去做韌性電網這一塊臺電花了很多的時間立法院也花了很多的時間來監督你們但是我剛剛看了幾位委員的質詢對臺電我們不是只有鼓勵有一些人對你們有很大的苛責但我覺得臺電在每一次"},{"start":4628.72,"end":4652.774,"text":"地震或者是颱風來的時候,台電在修復電力的這一塊所付出的努力,好像很少被肯定。我覺得這裡我真的要肯定台電,尤其你們的整個工程團隊,這次在很短的時間之內修復電力,或者是讓花蓮並沒有引發大停電,這個全世界都認為這是奇蹟。"},{"start":4655.046,"end":4665.064,"text":"可是好像沒有得到任何的掌聲大家一直不斷地罵你然後一直說台灣要限電了台灣要缺電了即使你們要回答要解釋"},{"start":4666.991,"end":4684.373,"text":"委員們還是不讓你們回答齁我覺得這個對你們來講是不公平啦但是不應該的跳電不應該的停電或是機組稅休這個會對住戶造成的影響我認為台電應該還是要能免則免您同意嗎"},{"start":4685.174,"end":4687.015,"text":"謝謝委員那確實在桃園的這幾天的這樣的一個情形是配電系統一個有的是電網有的是相關的設備的故障那這些故障呢那有一些如果很快可以移除"},{"start":4700.719,"end":4707.263,"text":"臺電一定會用最快的速度移除那比較停的時間比較久是因為那個設備或者是那個纜線整個斷掉他需要做一個比較大的工程所以花的時間比較長一點那我想臺電的同仁其實是在修復這個是都沒有日夜沒有分我知道臺電的同仁在修復都是拿命在拼啊"},{"start":4722.791,"end":4742.598,"text":"風在刮,尤其像我們在南部颱風來的時候風在刮大家就一直要求台電要立刻復電那個工人爬到電線桿上面去下著大雨刮著大風所以我覺得在這一方面除了我們的韌性電網這一塊還要持續的加強以外其實我覺得應該給台電一些鼓勵"},{"start":4744.238,"end":4758.874,"text":"接下來我要問了這個大安新的內閣老實講我剛剛對於王部長我是肯定的但我對於未來接任的經濟部長我有期待但是也有擔憂因為他是從業界來他不了解立法院的生態"},{"start":4760.335,"end":4779.886,"text":"在立法院裡頭我們這個臥虎藏龍我只能這樣說立法委員問的問題五花八門能不能接招會不會接招能夠怎麼樣的回答我覺得可能王部長您要花一點時間來跟我們的這個未來的郭智輝郭部長"},{"start":4780.686,"end":4784.347,"text":"以您現在了解的狀態我看伊朗跟以色列的這個衝突擴大"},{"start":4801.432,"end":4816.572,"text":"對於這個荷姆茲海峽的封鎖那這個對於未來或者是短期之內全球的這一些石油或者是天然氣的調度一定會產生一些影響嗎部長能不能"},{"start":4818.294,"end":4832.226,"text":"就您的角度可以說明的就是說我們少了中東地區的這一些進口量是不是我們的調度量缺口包括天然氣或者是石油我們的調度的缺口從哪裡來我們的靈活度夠不夠"},{"start":4835.388,"end":4862.553,"text":"剛委員報告我們從這個伊朗那一天發射攻擊之後我們就臺電中油就緊急成立了這樣的一個戰情中心來瞭解這個第一個情勢那第二個會不會讓這個相關的油價氣價甚至包括煤喔都有大幅的一個上漲所以我們在中油臺電的收集最精準的資料裡面那第一時間也看到"},{"start":4863.073,"end":4865.575,"text":"伊朗就趕快宣布說他就是這一波了那我們也看到國際上非常多的國家特別是從美國為首來怎麼樣控制這個局勢不要再去擴大那從那一天的攻擊到現在其實目前的情況上我相信很多的大國都在"},{"start":4885.129,"end":4888.611,"text":"中間傳說所以相關的油價氣價的部分除了當天有稍微上漲之外那這兩三天都還是情勢上大家都還在控制當中所以經濟部也是跟著國際的腳步有隨時在密切監控這整個局勢的發展這整個戰爭局勢的發展沒錯"},{"start":4905.76,"end":4933.316,"text":"好,如果說是這樣的話我相信這個因為我過去問過你們你們大概現在從中東地區的這個進口量大概已經也低於五成整個靈活的這個調度的靈活性上面或者是對於整個局勢國際局勢的監控上面我想不會因為內閣的交接而有所怠慢所以我還是要期待這個不會,同仁都進進業業把這個事情一定要做好"},{"start":4934.096,"end":4948.949,"text":"部長我接下來要請教您另外一個問題這個是跟我們今天要審查的基金有相關過去這個我們因為在推動新南向政策所以我們有一個這個推廣貿易基金裡面有去編列了"},{"start":4949.469,"end":4949.889,"text":"107年編列10億元"},{"start":4966.463,"end":4989.131,"text":"決算數是零。108年開始到112年也都各編列了5億,決算數也是零。所以今年113年一樣還是編了5億,但我不知道會不會有任何的廠商去做。我想這件事情我還是要請教,雖然很尷尬,你們編列了這樣的錢但是沒有廠商。"},{"start":4990.211,"end":5005.641,"text":"甚至說他應該有可能就是根本不可能有去海外在新南向的地區有去做這樣的公共工程的機會所以你這樣的一個基金還要繼續編嗎?關於委員報告那目前我們已經有一個目標國在洽談這個事情那應該最近應該會有比較這個具體的進程那這個就會趕快來執行"},{"start":5014.386,"end":5035.594,"text":"好,所以你那個113年你覺得應該是會有執行的可能性是會有執行的空間對,對好,OK部長我想還是與您共同勉勵啦謝謝委員謝謝您過去這段時間為台灣的經濟所做的努力那我期待未來我們一起繼續為國家加油謝謝好,接下來我們請張旗開委員請做詢答"},{"start":5063.054,"end":5084.543,"text":"我們再請王部長我聽聽看有笑容啦其實一直都是有笑容問有笑容的部長最近電鍋水都很緊張喔最近會不會用那個大停電或者是限水"},{"start":5085.551,"end":5105.833,"text":"電的部分因為地震所以地震當天就有機組故障那事後這幾天呢因為地震造成的相關的管線破管等等陸續出現那確實這個是事後才發生的這個事情我聽說中情你說內商啦很多人說內商等一下來看看內商的問題現在比較嚴重的我先跟你講一個"},{"start":5109.537,"end":5131.415,"text":"十五那一天就出現北台灣可能要可能會大限電對不對然後那16號桃園地區有近萬戶大停電我告訴你你知道可以嗎?湯不是只有16近萬戶的大停電你知道可以嗎?桃園又有三個地方停電了嗎?我先跟你講一下湯市的"},{"start":5134.465,"end":5146.255,"text":"桃園路今天早上7點14分17戶停電另外的龍潭、中正路跟中興路一帶今天早上7點57分潰線跳脫造成5332戶停電搶修完以後現在還有678戶停電另外桃園區的山林里大平里民有路7點56分4600"},{"start":5163.729,"end":5178.966,"text":"零五副停電,每天要進一萬副,怎麼會這麼嚴重?不只是16號已經停電一次了,大停電一次了,今天可以七點多,又來加起來,會超過一萬副喔"},{"start":5179.716,"end":5191.746,"text":"是 我這樣子 這個是配電的問題啦 就是線路 因為我們線路總共長度大概30幾萬公里啦 30幾萬公里 那其中某些地方偶爾會有一些狀況發生"},{"start":5196.155,"end":5198.277,"text":"大家會擔心嗎?對不對?昨天這樣,今天早上就這樣我想這個可能還是跟大家說明相關的配電系統因為纜線很長然後設備非常多那今天早上確實也有相關的雷雨那這個相關的氣候也確實會讓這樣的一個機組的故障的部分那這個故障"},{"start":5220.918,"end":5230.445,"text":"這個故障有一些其實台電很快就可以把它修復那有一些如果要更換會花多一點點時間來修復那台電其實都用最快的時間來做這個維修的動作 我知道台灣很辛苦 也不將心比心 你們是停電的"},{"start":5238.908,"end":5267.506,"text":"家庭你會怎麼想這個事情所以台電都用最有效率一般的這個家庭而且是太密集了而且現在我們要的不是解釋問題的內閣我們現在是要解釋解釋是要解決嘛但是你要知道問題是什麼問題停電這個頻率看起來是在增加當中而且看起來是有危機為什麼有危機?天氣越來越熱對不對用電的監控期馬上就要到啦夏天馬上就要到啦第二個"},{"start":5268.646,"end":5289.106,"text":"河山廠1號機7月就要除以了對不對河山廠的1號機1號機7月是百分之百分之3.5的這個用電量到期人又變少了對不對第三個就是剛才總會講的你現在還內傷現在餘震跟地震還是還是平傳的啊所以這個都是現在很嚴重的這個危機所以拜託一個最少一個"},{"start":5291.001,"end":5291.441,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5318.071,"end":5340.388,"text":"湯漆湯漆那麼多的工廠那麼多的公司這整個產業發展會受很大影響民眾受到影響更大是來我給你看一下更嚴重的現在我們缺電缺到什麼程度現在都要挖東牆補西牆現在可能不是只有缺電的問題現在可能都還要限水你看一下石門水庫現在水量多少24.5對不對深溫水庫剩下34.5"},{"start":5347.099,"end":5366.391,"text":"我去統計17個月報全台已經有8座的水庫蓄水量是低於3成了結果現在要檢討什麼?第一年不是減水而已喔這已經接近百年枯水期對不對?這樣還要檢討什麼?沒有沒有跟百年枯水期差很多有接近啦兩成多了嘛對不對?沒有沒有差很多兩成多啦那現在今天有一個最新的新聞"},{"start":5368.015,"end":5378.16,"text":"你現在你看看一下看一下你的水位那麼低24.5結果你的發電水力發電的數量你看石門水庫已經降到24.5了結果你水力發電用了多少"},{"start":5379.843,"end":5408.113,"text":"90.44元升溫水庫用了多少98.8元今天甚至更新的消息台電說要叫升溫水庫叫水利署這邊要發電現在水已經在蓋嘛本來就要節省水了對不對結果你現在叫它水利發電水就流失了嘛這個完全不會犧牲水因為它是上游把電發下來下游都存著然後這個存著的水民生要多少、農業要多少再來用"},{"start":5409.453,"end":5421.307,"text":"完全沒有浪費現在除了名壇是有這個上下載序的對不對是你在這個發電的過程裡面本來就會受影響啊所以今天包括今天的消息連水利署你是不是今天最新的消息不是水利署都出來講了沒有我們那個還有下池"},{"start":5424.531,"end":5450.153,"text":"不會,它只是發電放水的時間去搭配相關的尖峰但是呢這個放了水一定是都下面有一個下池那這個池呢再來看什麼時候用水完全不會浪費我們再來看下一張完全不浪費再看下一張,剛才總委說地震造成內傷嘛所以一直在停電、跳電對不對看一下之前我請教過你哪一種電"},{"start":5451.812,"end":5480.095,"text":"最便宜那種光核電現在我們要問另外一個問題你現在預防地震受的影響哪一種電最耐震你看這個圖當花蓮發生大地震的時候那間的氣墊50分所有的供電全部都是往下降的對不對是不是燃煤、氣電工生、民營電廠全部都往下掉有一個是平的什麼地方最穩定的、最耐震的是哪一個"},{"start":5481.926,"end":5501.765,"text":"跟委員報告河山是在屏東是最靠近南邊這次內商很多的包括像剛剛講那個三部基礎75萬都在南投台中就是靠近鎮央比較近反正其實河能也是現在你在設計的時候最注意安全嘛也是最穩定的嘛我們再看一個下一張好不好來 看這個發生311地震的日本"},{"start":5502.586,"end":5523.854,"text":"這幾天已經多天了他們要重新啟動全球最大的核電廠今天本席給部長跟眾議員看這些東西不是說你一定要改變什麼做最大的改變可是你要想一想你最近確實是在缺電隨時可能大限電的這個危機裡面對不對重新思考一下好不好重新思考一下至少今年要七月"},{"start":5524.614,"end":5547.824,"text":"你的河山場的一號機,100度裡面有3.5度是從那邊來的,你如果缺了這個電,你隨時可能會大限電或大停電,好不好?另外回過頭來,我請教博定一下,你已經跟新任的這個部長有通過電話嗎?我們願意祝福啦,願意祝福,祝福你一樣,他至少現在碰到兩個很嚴重的問題"},{"start":5549.686,"end":5574.981,"text":"兩個嚴重的問題一個是觸犯政交法的這個問題第二個商業商業會計法這個問題這個老蔣他目前還沒有上任之前這個是屬於個人公司治理的問題可是政治人物很重要的是什麼政治誠信所以等他上任完之後他當初觸犯了這個政交法觸犯了商業會計法這個重新都會被檢視另外再看下一張"},{"start":5576.735,"end":5605.534,"text":"彭博社這個新聞我看你非常的注意對不對彭博社代表是什麼他的總社在美國的紐約他是全世界最大的財經資訊的提供的地方又是在美國所以他示警是不是代表美國一部分的這個意見他示警的是什麼你為什麼去幫中國大陸的華為晶圓廠的污水處理現在好像變成銀彈風機大家都說誒污水處理廠廢水處理廠是小事果定"},{"start":5607.011,"end":5631.073,"text":"你對晶圓廠的廢水處理廠應該很了解,對不對?是台積電曾經講過喔他們的廢水處理要有38種分流那是很精密的高科技喔不是一般的民生的這個污水處理喔第二個他跟大陸的關係這麼密切新任的這個部長上台之後能夠確保每個商業機密特別跟晶圓跟晶片有關的會不會外洩"},{"start":5632.659,"end":5660.168,"text":"另外是美國的關係我剛特別提是彭博社來示警那我要問你你昨天講了說是不是違反美國的法規還要進一步去諮詢廠商還有了解他的態度你為什麼這樣講昨天你有在煩惱什麼嗎除了有沒有違反自己的法規之外齊凱今天本席很重要再提醒一個點不要把他去處理華為的這個晶圓廠的污水處理當成一般的民生用水民生污水"},{"start":5661.155,"end":5667.017,"text":"他是很高科技的這是一個點第二個你講到美國的法規對不對美國那邊有些擔心嗎應該精準的是這樣講就是說這一個報導之後呢那經濟部也有啟動相關的瞭解跟調查那這個調查結果那確實沒有違反我們任何的法規那這個包括他還有別的廠商的部分呢"},{"start":5684.461,"end":5688.943,"text":"那或者做這個廢水或者說這個相關的這個場務的處理的部分那所以也有請各相關的部會表示意見那目前就是大家都最後的結論就是這個沒有違反任何法規那至於美國的部分因為美國是這個外國直接產品的這個原則那這個相關的規定我們也仔細的檢視了以後那這個跟我們這幾個案子的情形確實"},{"start":5714.213,"end":5724.738,"text":"跟美國的規範也沒有關係所以這一些的案子確定是沒有違反相關的規定一般美中台關係本來就是民間那現在很多人檢討是說"},{"start":5726.755,"end":5737.88,"text":"如果新的這個新的這個要接你位子的經濟部長上來以後他跟中國大陸關係那麼密切特別這一次是跟華為然後晶片本身也是敏感的第一個我想要講的就是說臺灣這個企業界跟中國這邊有關係我覺得只要是正常的關係那這個我們應該大用這樣的來看待因為臺灣跟中國的貿易關係畢竟還是有30、40%那第二個就是說"},{"start":5754.166,"end":5756.947,"text":"他當經濟部長要做好相關的這個保密的規定或者跟原來的企業有非常好的這個切割我想這個經濟部新的經濟部長應該都會做好這些事情他在光電跟那邊有那麼多的這個投資利益迴避也是個大的問題"},{"start":5772.233,"end":5797.009,"text":"你跟他聯絡所以這段時間沒有錯確實很多地方你要提醒他他現在是公司治理的問題而已以後就不是囉你上台以後包括政治誠信的問題包括以前反走過必留下痕跡每一樣都是要被檢視的上台才是檢視的開始你要提醒他第二個包括美國這個態度可能要進一步更進一步去了解好不好那另外我最後還是要拉回來雖然民眾同關現在是電的問題我剛才已經跟你講了"},{"start":5798.47,"end":5812.426,"text":"一個早上通路上的地方又跳電跟停電了不要再發生這個我們會做好服務是一定現在民眾最關心的就是真的是用電的這個問題了不要再發生了至少在你下台之前好不好是我們會努力是謝謝"},{"start":5819.178,"end":5831.383,"text":"也不是在他下臺之前應該是沒此事好對謝謝好我們接下來請鄭正前委員請做詢答主席好我想請王美華部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":5850.151,"end":5855.844,"text":"部長因為新內閣的金獎人選已經出來了所以我要特別珍惜跟你每一次對話的機會"},{"start":5858.477,"end":5879.317,"text":"因為那個電的問題坦白說也是我們在這段時間以來一直在跟你對話的一個很重要的一個部分那415的時候一個大那個跳機的一個情況差點變成一個大跳電大家都非常的緊繃那剛剛也很多委員也都特別提到那4月16號桃園這邊14月17號都持續"},{"start":5883.161,"end":5895.88,"text":"包括桃園、中壢、大園、平鎮這邊都持續一直有一個停電的一個情況所以電的問題肯定是非常重要的那我想特別問一下因為4月15號這個跳機的事件之後據說"},{"start":5899.945,"end":5918.641,"text":"據說臺電現在正在查當天的值班人員到底誰把那個緊急可能要北區要規劃停電這樣的訊息一個揭露然後要查值班人員的手機是不是有這樣的事情我沒有聽說"},{"start":5920.639,"end":5940.901,"text":"報告委員沒有聽說這件事情沒有聽說這件事情我想特別問一下因為大家都關心電的使用沒有缺電現在大概什麼都不行所以電肯定非常重要所以我們提這些問題也是希望能夠解決電的問題包括我們在提整個能源政策整個能源"},{"start":5941.902,"end":5954.046,"text":"發電的配比等等的問題對於整個資訊的提供肯定是重要的那我這邊的時候看到了在4月15號之後我們的官網臺電官網當中的時候提到我們的備載容量還是16.08%非常的高讓大家覺得非常的滿意當然我也特別講因為"},{"start":5964.36,"end":5985.807,"text":"美花部長可能也很服氣很大因為15號沒有真的發生那個停電的一個情況可是問題是當天的時候呢中央電台中廣這邊他就直接表示我們的備載容量一度低到只有剩2.8%這是什麼情況可不可以請總經理這邊做個說明向委員報告"},{"start":5988.988,"end":6015.113,"text":"其實到了15號當天早上我們8點我們就開會了那時候開會主要是因為在前一天星期天發生了這個另外一件就是臺中的7號機也破管也破管那就是內傷剛剛講內傷不會馬上發生在那時候發生在禮拜天發生然後和平1號機就是靠近央央旁邊也都還是延遲修復因為確實傷得太嚴重"},{"start":6015.493,"end":6031.211,"text":"因為這個部分其實我們大概知道可是我特別要提到的一個情況是因為我們4月15號的時候本來想要透過民壇就是抽蓄水利發電去救急結果後來發現民壇這邊也出問題然後我看到一個很大的訊息是"},{"start":6032.112,"end":6053.538,"text":"所有的用電大廠的柴油發電機都被要求啟動包括台積電他們本身有36萬千瓦的柴油發電機也在當晚的時候都投入於發電的情況所以顯然現在整個台灣的電的情況其實是有問題的那我在想說針對415之後我相信你們之後會有個具體的報告"},{"start":6054.178,"end":6079.788,"text":"在跟本辦公室做一個報告我想接下來在珍惜跟美發部長對話的一個時間我想問他的是因為在我們今天在討論所有的基金的一個預算當中的時候我們看到了核能發電的後端營運基金這邊會出現一個114年可能台電就不會再提撥目前我看到所有的這個"},{"start":6081.881,"end":6102.675,"text":"預算書當中的時候就是台電目前每年大概提撥216.69億大概是這個數字那114年之後就沒有了那我想問一下以目前整個這個核厚的一個基金的情況呢我看它現在的整個"},{"start":6107.138,"end":6128.235,"text":"資產在今年底的一個預計數大概會到4555億可是它整個錢放貸出去的金額大概也高達了我查到今年3月底大概有4459億大概錢全部都出去大概這個核耗的一個基金同時又"},{"start":6129.471,"end":6152.575,"text":"放貸給了台電然後又買了國庫的公債所以整個下來之後呢我們就發現這個基金很好用這個提撥之後的時候錢又繼續被台電用回去然後再買了國庫的狀態那我想說針對這個部分在114年之後就沒有繼續提撥那我們後續這個基金要如何去運作"},{"start":6155.928,"end":6176.782,"text":"各位委員報告大概目前來講我們整個後端基金因為依照109年它總共提撥總數要到4786億所以依照規定就是說我必須在114年也就是2025前必須要提足所以剛剛委員有提到說我每年要提撥216億就是為了要把這個補足"},{"start":6181.64,"end":6198.775,"text":"所以現在補得足嗎?補得足那所以114年之後就沒有每年再提補216億嘛 對不對但是我們還是會每5年檢討一次所以它是一個滾動檢討在這個檢討的過程當中有沒有可能同時去檢討整個核電的一個政策如果延逸之後那就會繼續提補這個基金就會繼續累積"},{"start":6201.938,"end":6202.479,"text":"針對這個部分的時候我們希望好好來做一個檢討一下"},{"start":6220.059,"end":6232.029,"text":"針對整個核能那個政策是不是研議的時候我希望美華部長其實在您交棒之前的時候也能夠給後續的新的經長有一些比較更具體的建議我當然知道這是"},{"start":6232.875,"end":6232.995,"text":"有關於"},{"start":6250.222,"end":6275.385,"text":"推貿基金的部分推貿基金的部分那我們看到了一個推貿基金裡面有一個捐助金融機構辦理海外公共工程貸款利息的一個補助計畫那麼這個部分呢從107年到今年今年也是預算也是預計5億可是每一年的那個執行數都是零"},{"start":6276.606,"end":6302.152,"text":"就表示我們在這個部分的時候呢做得很失敗是不是表示我們整個新南向政策其實是有問題是需要再做進一步檢討的可不可以請部長做一個簡單的說明是那這個部分呢我們確實希望能夠用這個所謂的ODA的方式呢來跟相關的國家來做合作那今年度呢我們已經有一個目標國而且進展比較具體"},{"start":6303.052,"end":6331.772,"text":"所以今年度的這個案子應該是會成行所以說今年從107年到112年都是資訊數都是零你就今年不會是零你的意思是這樣子對OK那我想說之後的時候再到本辦來做一個細部的報告那本席也希望說對於整個新南向政策當中的目前執行的狀態還有後續新的經常來是不是繼續往下推我們也希望針對這部分做一個進一步的了解是"},{"start":6332.492,"end":6353.89,"text":"好 那最後一個部分我要針對目前整個那個水資源作業基金的部分因為水資源作業基金裡面的時候它針對觀光業務的部分有管了兩個水庫一個是石門水庫一個是曾文水庫然後呢它的整個的一個收支的狀況從109年虧損3700多萬一直到"},{"start":6359.714,"end":6384.955,"text":"今年預計會虧損到5500萬就整個情況每況愈下有沒有什麼樣的解決的方法是謝謝委員指導那這幾年因為我們大力的在做一些庫區的工程當然有一些影響觀光但至於委員你說到的解決的方法第一個是我們積極跟地方政府合作然後另外的一個部分的話是對於民眾"},{"start":6386.516,"end":6414.656,"text":"可能會去入園或是進到水庫的一個狀況我舉一個例子徵文水庫在過去的一段時間它滿庫的那每一天的這個入園人數就會很多蘇長這個就是我接下來要問的問題因為以我看的目前所有的水庫當中的主管單位非常的多樣有經濟部水利署管的就你這邊管的有台水管的有台電管的有台糖管的還有"},{"start":6416.597,"end":6437.33,"text":"農業部、農學署管的有地方這麼管的非常非常的多光是經濟部主管下來的有58個水庫這58個水庫每個管理的方式都不同都不同比方說我們在日月潭這邊的時候你要到日月潭去民眾要去要先向交通部、公安局這邊申請再跟台電申請什麼水庫這邊要跟"},{"start":6440.732,"end":6465.493,"text":"什麼時候管理中心申請?民眾水庫要跟水利署這邊沒有辦法申請等等都不一樣可是我要特別講的狀態就是因為108年行政院這邊有提出一個開放水域這樣子的一個政策就像我們開放山林一樣讓民眾能夠去享受山林開放水域也希望說讓民眾能夠去享受台灣很豐富的一個水資源可是目前來看的時候呢"},{"start":6465.973,"end":6482.126,"text":"就是每個單位都非常的管理顯然是沒有統一一致的所以本席希望經濟部至少在經濟部所屬的水庫的主管機關能夠針對非營利的個人或團體從事無污染的水域活動的時候呢"},{"start":6482.987,"end":6506.563,"text":"希望能夠採取更開放的一個心態這樣才能夠有助於民眾親近水域發展水庫的水域尤其功能那麼也能夠增加水庫的一個收費那因為在前兩年的時候其實也有民團直接發起了一個公共政策平台希望能夠開放水域可是後來呢執行的狀態是怎麼樣可不可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":6507.844,"end":6522.213,"text":"謝謝委員指導我們非常同意委員所說的這個原則事實上我們對於水庫的管理經濟部有同一個法規蓄水換為使用管理辦法那剛剛委員所這個表上面畫紅線的部分都是在這個法規裡面"},{"start":6523.474,"end":6539.913,"text":"當民眾或是團體有需要的話都是劃紅線的部分是水庫管理單位跟水庫管理單位申請所以這個申請的窗口會一致那各個水庫因為它的效能不一樣所以它的申請的對象會不一樣那目前為止的話我們不然是對於水庫周邊"},{"start":6541.554,"end":6556.734,"text":"的觀光或是有一些辦活動,像新竹寶二水庫也有辦過所謂慢跑活動。處長理解,可是像那個像那個我們新竹縣這邊的鵝鳴湖這邊的時候,他們現在新竹縣就表示說回歸那個整個"},{"start":6557.875,"end":6558.336,"text":"新竹缺水缺水的狀態之前4月15號的時候"},{"start":6576.488,"end":6602.086,"text":"石門水庫這邊去表示說我們有一個石門水庫到新竹這邊的一個供水的計畫預計一天有30萬噸那目前整個石門水庫本身的水儲量也很少那新竹這邊寶山水庫、寶二水庫的水也都很少那我們很擔心整個科學園區這邊又大陣又開始非常的焦慮缺水的問題有沒有一個簡單的處理方式部長可以簡單回應一下"},{"start":6602.506,"end":6605.888,"text":"其實我們除了這個桃園到新竹之外我們還會再有另外一個管線從台北這個南世溪這邊再增加相關的水源每天可以供應桃園那這樣的話才可以從北一直再往南收所以從台北這個增加的這一條水管"},{"start":6622.317,"end":6649.952,"text":"很重要才可以讓桃園再繼續往哪來供應新竹因為我昨天看到一個新的新聞它是說原本的時候預計石門水庫每天可以支運新竹這邊的水本來是10萬噸後來現在變成5萬噸那我昨天聽到說可能因為桃園本身也在缺水可能就沒有辦法再支應了那我們希望針對這個水跟電的問題經濟部這邊能夠多花一些心思然後做更好的一個交棒是應該的是"},{"start":6651.573,"end":6651.773,"text":"李玉琳委員"},{"start":6676.774,"end":6694.854,"text":"副部長辛苦了停電、跳電、沒電、缺電、限電這都是重要的問題所以在部長您在經濟部長位置上你也努力的不讓他停電你也說沒有缺電但是就是在停電沒電"},{"start":6696.536,"end":6710.049,"text":"在花蓮的地震之後的話很多機組受損那在4月15號開始我們就平臨的全台就會有限定的危機馬上4月16號桃園就三度停電"},{"start":6711.343,"end":6732.117,"text":"的這個情形發生16000多戶停電你說是因為這個電纜線的這個受損的情形昨天晚上平鎮龍台又停電3000多戶你說是變電所的這個潰線跳脫都有問題那我們也給你的經費"},{"start":6733.8,"end":6755.654,"text":"五千六百多億要讓你再把這個電纜電網整個強韌起來這十年的計畫但是我們看到的是每一年這個停電輸電的問題發生更加的嚴重從2020年一直到去年2023年是越來越多七十幾次到去年106次沒有改善"},{"start":6759.167,"end":6759.367,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":6782.82,"end":6802.154,"text":"輸電級的那個線路設計的規劃方式跟配電級接到家裡的那個電是不一樣的輸電級我們都會考慮到它的韌性所以它都有所謂的N-1這種概念什麼叫N-1就是我有一條故障的時候呢不會影響到民生用電可是你超載的時候就會跳脫就會跳電嘛你超載的問題都沒有解決啊我們線路不會讓它超載我們設計的時候就已經考慮到如果說不夠那全台你統計的就五條路線在超載光五條路線桃園就佔了兩條路線啊"},{"start":6812.022,"end":6820.807,"text":"那個超載是在有一條故障的時候才會超載如果是兩條都沒有問題是不會超載是這個意思所以對於有超載的潛在的這種地方我們就會在源頭規劃設計新的路線來做這樣子那現在桃園有兩條路線那你要規劃嗎"},{"start":6827.791,"end":6843.3,"text":"主要是因為桃園... 那怎麼樣是全面去檢修來解決這超載的問題我們現在就是遇到超載的路線之前幾年就開始去做規劃但是在施工的時候有時候會遇到抗爭沒有辦法架鐵塔所以就導致這個問題部長 因為每次停電 桃園就先停電了"},{"start":6844.662,"end":6862.658,"text":"所以桃園這個問題你們要整個全面去整修這個問題尤其是我們桃園是工業用電的大戶你們都要有所感才對跟委員報告您這邊看到的這個圖是輸電的那這三天停電的都是配電的就是那種小電送到家裡這種小電所以你看"},{"start":6863.399,"end":6877.046,"text":"在你整個和平電廠發生問題之後臺中的電廠也發生問題最重要是觀音的大潭電廠也跳機也有問題和平還有明潭通通有問題所以都在我們桃園這個地區的輸電這個電網、電纜還有潰線整個的問題"},{"start":6882.609,"end":6899.827,"text":"請給我們一個整個完整的修復規規電廠的部分比較是地震造成的但是大潭的話是因為不是不是輸電或配電的配電就是小電送到家裡這部分比較不會是地震影響"},{"start":6902.169,"end":6907.191,"text":"蘇電會受到地震影響最嚴重的是電廠因為電廠裡面的設備一搖的話鍋爐的管線長度就500公里一個鍋爐就500公里這麼長所以只要一搖晃就有可能受傷害所以在這個狀況之下它的機率比較高"},{"start":6917.659,"end":6940.171,"text":"不管是這個輸電、配電我們4月份就開始就漲電價了漲電價了讓你漲了那你至少要讓我們人民穩定能夠供電讓我們使用吧這是你們的職責對不對是所以至於長久的問題你們要好好的解決這個我們提了再提了所以也要拜託你們啦是那接下來本席想問的就是說因為地震的問題"},{"start":6941.272,"end":6946.699,"text":"我們在1999年之前的話我們對發電廠的地震的那個耐震程度是五級對不對後來1999年之後的話是六級那現在花蓮這個地震是7.2級那未來如果有更大的地震我們那個耐震能夠承受嗎"},{"start":6963.118,"end":6980.238,"text":"請你看到這張圖這張圖就是鍋爐裡面那個管線密密麻麻的那如果說我要讓他地震的層級要再更拉高的話他所有的扣件他必須要更強固那更強固的話他會讓我的那個發電的效率會變差所以我們就必須要做個權衡"},{"start":6981.932,"end":7006.9,"text":"我們通常在大修的時候呢基礎大修的時候鍋爐大修的時候會把很多的管所以現在耐震級數到幾級可以到幾級新的1999年之後是6級6級那現在地震7.2級7.2級但是它不是正央它比較遠所以慢慢的未來更大未來它的正央在哪裡不知道所以我們是不是要再加強這個我們在未來設計新的電廠會考慮"},{"start":7008.325,"end":7011.427,"text":"一定要考慮,因為已經到7.2級了,是不是?"},{"start":7011.427,"end":7016.671,"text":"是所以這個是要衛生某種安全、公安的問題你們一定要考量進去好不好?"},{"start":7016.671,"end":7028.279,"text":"是那接下來想請問的就是現在很多國營事業針對勞工的問題都有說要減班尤其是那個我們在這個工作"},{"start":7035.356,"end":7060.973,"text":"在我們的《性平工作法》裡面的第19條在府役未滿3歲子女可以向雇主減工一小時中華電信已經開始了提高在6歲以下的小孩童人可以每日減工一小時那我請問部長那我們現在國營司令有沒有要配合同步來進行"},{"start":7062.592,"end":7072.724,"text":"根文報告事實上我在去年前年我其實就有一個措施對就是他可以彈性的上下班就是只要有這個家裡有這個0到6歲小孩的就可以彈性上下班具體的一個方案出來可以公佈他們的這可以怎麼去申請有有其實這個之前我們就有相關的規範"},{"start":7082.495,"end":7098.604,"text":"那現在是經濟部有沒有在做更多的一個部分那我們也會請我們的人事來做相關的檢討所以部長是支持這個方法我個人是非常支持因為6歲以下孩子還是要接受照顧沒錯我們讓年輕的爸爸媽媽覺得我一方面又可以上班可以增加生養是"},{"start":7109.309,"end":7121.954,"text":"請問部長我們禮拜二的時候禮拜一的時候有去那個石門水庫我們看了那個情形除了說我們有供水到新竹那最重要我前一個會刊也是有到這個大"},{"start":7123.715,"end":7128.117,"text":"大苛凱去看我們清淤泥的問題那這個大苛凱這個清淤泥也就是我們之前阿姆平這個清淤是不是走過清淤的這個子計畫在這個預算上面的話我們的編列都有進來但是我們發現了一個問題就是清淤泥的時候"},{"start":7139.181,"end":7158.199,"text":"有一個廢棄物廢棄物的這個東西所以我們工程費有增加那不足的經費大概有4.5億那我們那個賴署長也是有一起去那看到這個情形我們也希望說我們可以如期如質的來完工可以把在中長期的這個計畫裡面把這個不足的經費把它補足進去好不好"},{"start":7159.453,"end":7186.769,"text":"是委員這個部分我們同年已經在想辦法看未來怎麼跟市政府來合作了因為經費畢竟是有限的對因為清運是很重要的你的經費到位的話他才可以如期來完工讓我們什麼水庫的蓄水量才能夠增加好不好好謝謝好謝謝來敬禮謝謝好接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢答"},{"start":7203.232,"end":7229.503,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長。我們再請王部長。還有水利署署長。好,蔡市長。好,我也好。部長辛苦了。是。這個辛苦很多年了。不會,應該的。覺得在這個位置在這一段時間為國家做這些事情非常有意義。非常謝謝你。這個自然水法第12條之2。第12之2條。"},{"start":7233.77,"end":7255.165,"text":"這個第三項裡面特別提到這個水源保育與回饋費得納入這個基金管理然後專攻水質水量保護區內辦理水資源保育與環境生態保育基礎設施基民公共福利回饋及受限土地補償之用"},{"start":7256.397,"end":7283.133,"text":"然後這個第三款也提到發放因水質水量保護期之化設土地受限制使用之土地所有前人或相關前一人補償事項還有原住民族第7租稅這個補助事項第12至2條第4項也特別提到補償對象這個相關的這些發放標準還要由言明會跟"},{"start":7283.946,"end":7308.383,"text":"由經濟部跟聯盟會共同定的,都定了,這個標準也都定了。《世大學法》第12條第5項,自用於第3項第1款至第5款,但延續民主相應從優考量。這個實施很多年了,實施很多年了。現在就是署長,"},{"start":7310.132,"end":7329.092,"text":"請問署長,這個實施很多年了,經費基金也都有編列,那你們在執行上,往年幾月份會撥到地方政府?如果要撥到地方政府的經費?"},{"start":7330.913,"end":7356.746,"text":"這個部分大概是第一季然後有些單位有的單位他會比較晚送那可能是第二季第一季是什麼時候?幾月到幾月?一到三月左右一到三月那基本上針對這個問題我們也想出解決方法第一個是說事實上每年的這個用度大部分都是如常的那我們希望說他前一年"},{"start":7358.506,"end":7377.681,"text":"前一年也許10月就先送過來我們就預審所以可以更快一點也許在第一季的前一兩個月就可以處理像今年的話我們也是這樣子來處理基本上在3月的部分我們針對全國水質水量保護區的部分都已經核定了"},{"start":7380.609,"end":7401.555,"text":"是不是請署長會後把那個花蓮縣跟台東縣的部分提供給本席沒有問題也許你們的同仁的作業有點說不定有漏掉的部分尤其是花蓮縣跟台東縣查一下好謝謝這個部分"},{"start":7406.274,"end":7435.687,"text":"上次有跟這個部長以前我都是質詢署長那上一次有特別質詢這個部長因為部長是寫法例的這個而且這方面的權益應該要以保障內政部修訂了這個土地法第14條第一項各款規定不得私有土地的劃定原則這裡面我們就談到這個原住民申請原住民保留地"},{"start":7437.335,"end":7465.009,"text":"以奉合定：誰奉合定：是行政院是行政院合定為徵兵保留地這第一個合定之後嚴明會地方政府就把它設定耕作錢、地上錢或農業錢所以兩個條件部長還有署長他第一個行政已經合定了我現在談的有幾筆土地"},{"start":7467.412,"end":7487.381,"text":"行政院已經合併徵花邊沿珠穎堡的地他那個過程很長是從鄉鎮公所一直到縣市政府到中央行政合併然後合併之後人民會、鄉鎮市公所再把他設定耕作錢、地上錢或農業錢"},{"start":7489.005,"end":7505.331,"text":"然後就可以應排除劃入不得私有土地的範圍這是內政部所訂的一個規定所以本席這個老案子吉安鄉海濱段678-1、678-2、679及680-1這幾筆土地經濟部水利署並沒有依水利法83條公告為不得私有的氣塊然後這個"},{"start":7519.537,"end":7546.205,"text":"我剛講了這幾筆土地這幾筆土地都是行政院已經核定的而且已經設定跟做前所以這樣的要請這個部長這個請署長這邊能夠把他能夠把他這個趕快就同意這個因為他就照"},{"start":7547.318,"end":7548.785,"text":"依法來處理,可以嗎?副總。"},{"start":7550.388,"end":7551.169,"text":"秀明先生"},{"start":7581.911,"end":7599.819,"text":"這個比較特別那至於說像秀姑蘭溪或是其他的溪的部分的話?署長你回去查整個那個區塊如果沒有一筆私有土地我就認了非常多的私有土地都在那邊喔"},{"start":7606.901,"end":7623.474,"text":"土地所有權給他一樣限制使用,我們絕對是依法限制使用,好不好?那相關單位假如說是來文,那話我們會依法,然後依照程序來做回應我的意思說你先去查,到底這個這幾筆土地的桌邊那個7塊"},{"start":7625.964,"end":7652.784,"text":"整個7塊到底有多少事由土地這很容易查吧?對,沒有問題就麻煩這個署長部長這個會後請署長依法行政這是法律這符合法律好不好?是最後還有時間還有部長跟署長先回座然後台電副總經理"},{"start":7662.821,"end":7679.345,"text":"這個核能發電後端營運基金這個你們編列的這個我就覺得說是需要再考量當然有的已經執行了當然不得不執行像這個蘭嶼第7基民生活環境與飲食習慣調查"},{"start":7681.958,"end":7702.184,"text":"這個它的必要性我是質疑啦不然你把那個到底當初調查的目的是什麼提供給本席另外就是這個推展費用這個外界先導地方設新廢棄物處理及儲存業務這些大家都了解啦"},{"start":7703.864,"end":7728.049,"text":"這個已經幾十年了要花這些錢還不如把這些錢直接給我們的蘭嶼的鄉親做這些先導的費用然後這裡你看看這個木林木林跟公益支出也提供去年的執行情形好不好是 謝謝"},{"start":7729.344,"end":7751.542,"text":"我們要去檢視到底是不是確實對於蘭嶼的鄉親有幫助另外這個核能發電後端營運基金這個部分這個部分這個因為現在很多都要除役也沒有核四、核一、核二、核三"},{"start":7755.011,"end":7755.031,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":7789.809,"end":7810.886,"text":"請楊純英召委質詢謝謝主席 本席想邀請部長部長好好 委員好 部長您辛苦了部長的一職是被公認最難坐穩的位置"},{"start":7812.834,"end":7831.551,"text":"部長你已經創下了歷史紀錄也就是在整個體系當中經濟首長的紀錄你是小英政府任職最久的經濟部長部長你認為你在任內你最滿意的政策是什麼你有沒有覺得有什麼遺珠之憾還沒做到的"},{"start":7832.723,"end":7839.228,"text":"我想我擔任這個期間很長那我非常珍惜跟同仁一起努力打拼然後讓臺灣的經濟讓臺灣的各項的發展都往正面的走那我有非常多不是只有單一、滿一的等等但是很多經濟部委員也非常清楚經濟部的業務持續都有還有非常多優先的業務要去推動所以"},{"start":7862.005,"end":7863.347,"text":"有沒有你認為你覺得你最有榮耀的是什麼事你推動的"},{"start":7875.538,"end":7898.019,"text":"我想我最有榮耀其實是跟同仁的共識大家形成一個非常好的team然後用非常快速的時間不管是來解決問題你所說的說明是跟同學的這個跟同仁的互動那在你整個業務的推廣方面政策你認為有哪一項是你覺得最覺得是最成功最有榮耀的"},{"start":7899.14,"end":7911.363,"text":"就是因為有這樣的跟同仁的合作那包括克服了百年大旱那包括雖然我們電力有出了一些問題但是因為有這樣的問題有這樣的挑戰我們其實是做了更好的一個安排不管是在各式各樣的電力的供給跟韌性的部分那包括臺灣的整個經濟的發展讓全世界看到臺灣這個重要性"},{"start":7926.267,"end":7950.376,"text":"你提出了抗百年大旱這個的確是一個很大的挑戰所以一開頭我說這是最難坐穩的位置那你能夠做了這4年多也不簡單所以本席要請問你對於預計新接任的準經濟部長你的看法呢?"},{"start":7951.494,"end":7958.516,"text":"我們非常非常感佩企業界願意來做相關內閣的隔遠對國家的經濟大政方針繼續再往前走畢竟從業界來有他的高度跟他的事業你要不要給他什麼的建議建議的部分我想大家對台灣的整個經濟的發展都有很有期待"},{"start":7976.582,"end":7978.685,"text":"你還在敘述情緒的話語所以本席跟你分享因為據聞他是最懂半導體這個產業的部長"},{"start":7997.366,"end":8022.295,"text":"據聞如果他接了應該是如此但是本席希望你告訴他我國的中小企業本席一直一直一直跟你討論這一項我國的中小企業將近有160萬家占所有企業99%人口勞動人口占了920萬人所以在這樣的情況之下他也占了我們就業人口即將八成"},{"start":8023.015,"end":8027.857,"text":"所以中藻企業一直是臺灣的磐石它也為了臺灣呢創造了四小龍的一個光榮的一個龍頭同時它也是定定的我們臺灣民生安定最重要的骨幹"},{"start":8038.9,"end":8067.799,"text":"同時他也充滿了活力彈性他也靈活的創新你同意這樣的論點嗎我完全同意完全同意所以他也製造了很多我們的隱形冠軍在全世界發揚光大對不對是的是所以你要不要告訴他不只半導體我們的中小企業要好好的照顧對不對一定要告訴他你要你這個學姊要告訴他接下來我也請台電總經理一起上來"},{"start":8069.601,"end":8072.687,"text":"限電為期接著桃園的萬戶停電電力的偵測要不要檢討請問部長我"},{"start":8079.184,"end":8080.484,"text":"16號本席辦公室中午的時間向台電要索取資料"},{"start":8103.431,"end":8116.29,"text":"說15號的狀態到底是怎麼回事當天晚上從中午的時間到當天晚上10點半才獲得回顧這樣子的效率可以嗎要不要檢討"},{"start":8118.291,"end":8127.776,"text":"謝謝委員我想臺電的同仁因為15號16號都在緊急處理相關的這個電力的問題部長不要再情緒性的發言我們針對問題大家一起要努力臺電的總經理在這裡這也是我最敬佩的這個領袖那我要告訴你"},{"start":8140.322,"end":8161.447,"text":"15號發生事情16號中午我們請問到16號的晚上10點半才獲得回應為什麼會如此來接下來本席要請教那麼台電你是否在15號有備妥限電停電的計畫因為你只告訴我們部長你聽他告訴我們說他在會議中沒討論所以等於是沒有正面的回覆會議中沒討論接下來本席要請問"},{"start":8170.748,"end":8194.848,"text":"沒關係你不回答也沒關係16號不回答也沒關係本席說要在這邊提問真正的答案到底15號總經理你們有沒有被託有沒有通知有沒有討論到要限電跟停電的這個報告因為據媒體所說你們已經通知台電向各區處喔通知要輪停準備"},{"start":8195.789,"end":8218.615,"text":"有沒有再回事 請說明好 跟委員報告我們通常在每一天的期前12小時或24小時會預估接下來的備轉容量率那麼到了中午的時候到了15號中午的時候我們的備轉容量率還是超過6%以上那以這麼大的備轉容量率其實我們不可能在那個時候就是說所以你們在會議中你15號整天的會議沒有討論嗎沒有討論我們要理清楚沒有討論都沒有討論"},{"start":8225.618,"end":8226.558,"text":"15日晚上出現的台電四部機跳機"},{"start":8251.141,"end":8274.357,"text":"全台備轉容量首度降到3%以下 嚇到我在台中我很緊張我們的中國要怎麼樣支應好接下來16號就發生了桃園的這樣的現象所以距離我們供電穩定是不是應該有很大的空間我們這樣看在4月15號的中午的時候"},{"start":8276.139,"end":8285.603,"text":"至少還有6% 超過9% 為什麼?因為反習已經在跟你講到15號晚上如何了啦不要再去逃脫那些問題來接下來我們15日你台電就已經啟動了需電競價緊急機組的臭緊急調度"},{"start":8295.246,"end":8311.93,"text":"機制包括你請求台電、台積電、用電大幕的發電也啟動了核二核三廠以及我台中渦輪柴油發電都發電了水力發電來核來渡過這一次的難關是不是如此"},{"start":8312.731,"end":8317.754,"text":"那些基礎 有那些事實 但是這些都是我備轉容量的一部分對 你要給社會當中知道 當你發生問題的時候 你有什麼辦法嘛就不用怕嘛 你要告訴民眾清楚啊 不然人家問你不講嘛 對不對你不講我們都會知道 所以這些剛剛本席所說的都是你在籌電的這個項目嘛 都已經執行嘛 對不對"},{"start":8342.731,"end":8360.759,"text":"你既然有努力做你為什麼不讓社會大眾瞭解呢?知道你們的辛苦呢?來接續本席要請教這一次要用電大戶來支援發電的狀況那你這一次的成本又要花了多少?有的大概8塊錢有的是比較貴的是10塊錢有12塊嗎?"},{"start":8363.666,"end":8386.21,"text":"因為你們還有一個彈性兩層那個就12塊有沒有那是臨時吊他起來有沒有有有有這一次有用到12塊嘛對不對對這都有簽約的就會跟他簽約你不用怕我們要了解事實所以你有用到12塊的嘛對不對是的所以這一次光光這一次你告訴部長這一次你的成本還要花多少"},{"start":8388.013,"end":8403.891,"text":"我們還沒有算啦我們這個等算出來再來回報部長所以本席第一個就是提問我們有討論的空間台電很辛苦全力支持台電但是你們要怎麼樣供電穩定你們必須要去檢討你不告訴我們方法我們要給你看答案"},{"start":8410.031,"end":8421.714,"text":"就這一次你度過難關你買到12塊你要花了多少成本真的這一次因為地震120萬千瓦的機組沒有修復大潭8號機明台456號機陸續的跳電你影響到185萬千瓦的供電你只要少了任何剛剛本席所說的你就瀕臨限電"},{"start":8437.697,"end":8440.799,"text":"告訴你本期憂心夏季要到了夏季的用電高峰來臨緊急調度的機制常常要登場"},{"start":8457.749,"end":8475.917,"text":"會經常要登場你要未雨綢繆怎麼辦跟委員報告我們的機組都是在利用非夏天的時候做維修所以這些機組在6月之前會陸續歸零把你認為要穩定供電的方案請詳細書面資料給本席好不好是本席也再次強調"},{"start":8477.881,"end":8504.924,"text":"我們需要了解內容才能夠告訴民眾讓民眾安心好不好我最後一個議題推廣諾易基金的設立部長 王總監會我們提升對外出口競爭力跟國際貿易的地位我願意但是我台中很重要的臺灣區工具機零組件工業同業工會也就是我們號稱你們也非常關心的TMBA"},{"start":8505.845,"end":8521.808,"text":"我們公布了我們的工具機112年9月份的出口是比前期我們少了11.4%那你出口的機種跟出口的市場我有跟你分清楚機種你少了12.9%市場少了13.3%所以在113年當中你的貿易推廣工作計畫裡頭一樣智慧這個機械海外推廣的經費一樣是1億"},{"start":8535.111,"end":8553.424,"text":"我每一次都給你全力的支持但是你推廣不力你告訴我怎麼樣協助我們產業好不好我們全力的支持預算你一樣照這樣編可是你市場一直在下降你的機種出口率也下降你怎麼辦你怎麼樣協助我們產業沒錢不要說有錢你又沒辦法給我們推動這怎麼辦啊"},{"start":8560.333,"end":8561.314,"text":"市長你這麼回答還有有一點神經有觸動我請你告訴我"},{"start":8585.626,"end":8600.952,"text":"你每一年固定編列一樣的數字你的成效怎麼樣112年是成效不彰我告訴你市場下降了13%機種下降了12.9%你告訴我你未來怎麼推動請詳細書面資料給本市好嗎可以可以好我們再給委員"},{"start":8614.18,"end":8624.805,"text":"謝謝 接下來我們請謝一鳳委員因為我們沒有休息所以如果行政部門有需要請自行 謝謝好 謝謝主席我想要請台電的總經理我們再請王總經理"},{"start":8644.616,"end":8671.503,"text":"王總我想要請問一下就是我們在2021年跟我們2022年的停電就是事件的專案報告裡面你已經說明了我們夜間的就是因為太陽能電力的供應下降所以你們就是要想辦法讓夜間的電力的彈性可以恢復可是為什麼現在到了今年已經2023了"},{"start":8673.624,"end":8678.232,"text":"我們還是沒有辦法是不是?"},{"start":8678.232,"end":8680.415,"text":"2024跟委員報告齁這次最主要是因為"},{"start":8681.618,"end":8703.744,"text":"地震之後的一些機組陸陸續續故障陸陸續續內商股關係陸陸續續故障他不會是發生那這個狀況之下在15號當天是下午同時他半個小時之內發生的兩部應該講四部總共四部機組同時沒有電送出來那這個在台電送電的意思"},{"start":8705.004,"end":8724.105,"text":"在那個我的大潭電廠的8號機110萬千瓦然後呢在民潭的有三部的抽蓄發電機那是因為他的送電出來一個很重要的一個設備叫做Bus那個Bus呢因為地震搖晃了之後就在那個15號當天造成他短路所以他那個三部機組的電也送不出來"},{"start":8724.545,"end":8726.066,"text":"所以你這次的備載都沒有用到核電我看到都是柴油"},{"start":8739.971,"end":8754.646,"text":"修飾台積電的製備的36萬千瓦的柴油發電還有核二核三的柴油發電機我們等於是說在備轉的準備方面是會一道又一道的防線就是預防剛剛講到15號當天發生的這麼重大的衝擊"},{"start":8758.95,"end":8785.323,"text":"臺電被一個重擊但是因為我們的備轉容量是夠的所以我們有守住即使發生了這個事我們的備轉容量還有3%就是這樣子所以我很感謝同仁大家這麼努力可是我想要理解的是如果說我們備轉的容量夠那為什麼需要用到這麼多的柴油發電機還要用到台積電的"},{"start":8786.689,"end":8802.825,"text":"因為我們還要預留3%在最後萬一還有下一個的重極台電的一個事故發生的時候我們還要能守住不限電所以我們先把其他的部分先用掉留100萬千瓦的餘裕容量在那邊大概是這個目的"},{"start":8805.469,"end":8824.175,"text":"我還有看到我們用了台積電自備的36萬千瓦的柴油發電機但是根據台電111年度的永續報告書裡面台積電強調自己使用再生能源是達到預設的標準"},{"start":8826.016,"end":8854.492,"text":"但是在2019到2022年他們直接使用天然氣柴油的是8.61億度到13.36億度那如果我們說我們真的是沒有缺電真的是穩定供電的話為什麼台積電會使用柴油跟天然氣而不是使用再生能源"},{"start":8854.932,"end":8881.275,"text":"好 跟委員報告在2021那段時間主要是因為國內的景氣非常的好尤其是中美的問題之後很多台商回來所以那個時候的用電量突然暴增我們增加了大概6%的用電量從來沒有過這麼大的一個用電量所以在那個時候在某一些情境之下然後台電的基礎又有故障所以那時候那幾年有請台積電出來協助"},{"start":8882.056,"end":8882.076,"text":"財務部長"},{"start":8898.61,"end":8921.564,"text":"不足的阿是不是所以跟委員報告其實這幾年臺電的電力一直在持續的建設包括像最近深巴深巴是IPP啦不是臺電的電廠他已經在最近在試運轉了然後包括我們的臺中也有兩部機組新達也有三部機組正在興建所以我們這些量持續的在興建就是為了因應未來的用電的成長而在準備當中"},{"start":8923.045,"end":8930.988,"text":"臺電都會在前面5年10年之間就在預備未來的用電需求一直在努力那我還想請問王部長王部長你要卸任了這要跟你恭喜還是要跟你歡送你給自己打幾分"},{"start":8949.026,"end":8974.582,"text":"沒有打分數的問題就是做好每一天的工作你沒有打分數喔你對未來的那個我們新任的部長有什麼期許我們非常感謝他願意來承擔這樣的一個重責大任那對台灣的未來的經濟發展一定很有幫助是嗎那他是對於我們半導體最了解的部長你覺得你跟他了解的程度是怎樣"},{"start":8975.222,"end":8979.966,"text":"臺積電的永續報告裡面他們在2019年到2022年他們使用天然氣跟柴油是8.6億度到13.36億度那代表了對於臺積電來講"},{"start":9003.291,"end":9022.231,"text":"能源穩定的問題是非常重要的那它佔了台灣出口的GDP非常重要的比例我認為怎麼樣子讓台灣的電力可以穩定是非常重要的議題尤其是在這一次的大停電之後那部長你會怎麼樣期許他"},{"start":9023.264,"end":9048.397,"text":"我們確實這個電力的部分大家都很關心那我想這個部分怎麼樣做好電力的供給我們也會跟新部長做好交接現在我們正在做的電源的開發也好或者因應產業界有新的需求我們怎麼樣搭配要提早準備等等我們一定都會去做說明我們今天還有審就是核後端的那個基金"},{"start":9049.377,"end":9076.831,"text":"但是我其實在這四年來我一直在想那我也問王總經理到底對於我們的核燃料棒現在是核廢料嗎?怎麼樣子重新再利用?那國際間已經有先進的科技可以重新再利用那對於相關的議題臺電有沒有進行相關的研究?來"},{"start":9079.318,"end":9096.649,"text":"向委員報告,臺電持續在關注國際上最新的科技的應用,就像委員提到的這些已經用過核燃料的廢料可不可以再精進的部分,當然國外也在做這方面研究,只要一旦有突破有成果,我們也會照這個成果。"},{"start":9098.49,"end":9098.65,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9119.483,"end":9143.235,"text":"合電這樣子的一個壓力那未來如果我們繼續使用核電的時候我們才可以就是說解決核廢料的問題是不是是跟委員報告我們現在在核二、核一廠區要蓋中間的中期的這個核廢料的儲存廠在那個儲存廠我們會把已經用過的燃料棒放在那個地方"},{"start":9143.655,"end":9160.98,"text":"那一旦未來技術有如委員說的他可以再把這些燃料、廢燃料再濃縮然後再利用那這些技術但成熟這些我們就馬上就會有做後續的一些處置和應用好 謝謝喔來我們接下來請邱志維委員"},{"start":9185.153,"end":9194.604,"text":"國貿署 江副署長 能源署 李副署長 政務長 謝聖川署 何署長 水利署 外署長 還有人事局管理局 楊局長"},{"start":9206.311,"end":9234.064,"text":"一起上來好了今天省基金幾個部分先問推廣貿易基金這是經特的部分這個江市長基金來源今年編列多少錢基金來源今年編列多少錢基金來源我們113年編列67億好主要是因為你的出口總值增加對那你的這個基金用途編列多少錢"},{"start":9235.151,"end":9261.818,"text":"用途是58億左右那是國際市場開發對哪些國際市場你要先開發我們國際市場的話是全面的就是只要應該有幾個重點嘛不可能說全面的今年的幾個重點在哪裡主要的第一個是幫廠商爭取更多的買主所以會邀請主要的買主來台灣第二個部分呢是到國際上去"},{"start":9262.738,"end":9288.013,"text":"參加相關的展覽或者相關的這個推廣的活動去年也有相關的計劃嘛是不是可以把去年你們這個針對基金用途在國際市場開發的部分把這成果是不是可以提供一些把相關資料提供給我另外CPTPP也是你們重要的重點嘛就您個人的預估啊當然經貿辦也很重要你個人預估臺灣加入CPTPP最樂觀是什麼時候可以加入"},{"start":9289.375,"end":9311.886,"text":"這個是我們一直會努力的目標 這個委員也有成立一個CPTPP的一個聯盟我說你預估啦 我現在預估 因為我時間有限 你預估最樂觀、最悲觀、最樂觀是什麼時候我們臺灣可以有CPTPP我們會盡我們最大的努力 持續的跟相關的會員我問你 樂觀跟悲觀 最樂觀我們什麼時候可以 大概給我一個提成表嘛"},{"start":9312.98,"end":9319.906,"text":"這個時間表我們可能沒有辦法由我方來決定因為必須要所有的會員都要有共識請部長請部長你都不講啊我都請部長休息"},{"start":9341.616,"end":9342.699,"text":"連樂觀你們都講不出來來部長樂觀的話我們什麼時候可以教習"},{"start":9348.747,"end":9372.007,"text":"委員確實比較抱歉 因為確實要在他們這邊成立 譬如說入會工作小組來啟動我都很熟啦 但你們說有個目標值最多關我們什麼時候可以加入 很多非操是在我 可操是在我可操是在我們部分 我們全體都說好了我當初有時候把相關的法律修正案也都修完了對不對 相關要法什麼的全部修完了"},{"start":9372.267,"end":9400.456,"text":"沒錯那你要有個工作期程給駐外單位說什麼時候我們要加入這才有工作壓力嘛因為我們有壓力還有動力啊因為我們台灣是被審的這個部分那事實上這個外館非常非常的積極來爭取讓他們相關的會員來成立入會的這個工作小組那但是確實這個部分不是比較好你先回座那個因為經濟特別收入有五項基金我先跳過來先問水資源這個老實講"},{"start":9403.217,"end":9409.78,"text":"今年總收入是多少?91億左右支出是大於收入?對支出主要是擴大7億阿公兩隻口,你今天有沒有7億?"},{"start":9418.127,"end":9433.757,"text":"今年還是持續會在前提裡面做清淤還有包括阿公店水庫有沒有清淤有有有有清淤齁對你把阿公店水庫清淤的目標值跟花的預算你提供一個要給我齁完全沒問題因為潭嶺志鴻池岡山齁潭嶺志鴻池你們目前規劃怎麼樣"},{"start":9435.419,"end":9453.117,"text":"臺體滯洪池的部分可能要看我們現在要看整個預算的來源你把相關的進度再混一下給我那滯洪池也是你們管的嘛對不對對我剛才有這個聯邦學習A、B、D滯洪池有前紅號滯洪池"},{"start":9454.258,"end":9454.658,"text":"發言委員：完整會議"},{"start":9474.668,"end":9481.372,"text":"那這沒有問題 這部長非常重視啊我們每天去那邊運動還是有人抱怨說公共施展不夠這個職災做得不夠好請問請加強好不好好好那接下來這個中小企業署好 委員好何署長 比較少人問你齁這個你今年啊"},{"start":9504.249,"end":9530.658,"text":"你這個中小企業發展署你這個基金來源是多少錢?這個國庫要撥補27億28、27億27億國庫撥補然後其他我們有一些收入大概9千多萬好啦28億28億是今天要省的你們這個基金來源是林口新創園區你們針對這些新創園區要做到南北平衡阿"},{"start":9532.133,"end":9542.666,"text":"南部有沒有相關新創園區的規劃南部目前是雅灣在高雄那是高雄有分很大有南高雄北高雄北高雄也要重視"},{"start":9544.346,"end":9567.396,"text":"你那個雅雯在南高雄是賴瑞榮那邊你當然要重視那我這邊你也不能忽視啊北高雄是未來S囊帶的核心耶你也有新創學校的這個育成中心啊他們也有設一些新創拿什麼不能相比你要拿出這個不僅是台灣的南北平衡高雄的南北要平衡"},{"start":9568.444,"end":9578.2,"text":"你很多資源放在這個高雄南邊固然我支持但是你也不能忽視這個高雄北邊高雄北邊是未來高雄市進步繁榮發展的一個核心區"},{"start":9579.491,"end":9600.547,"text":"所以你新創事業你要這個超前部署所以我要求你是不是在未來除了雅灣之外在高雄的北邊你能夠去規劃一個這個新創園區我們再來找看有沒有適合的地點地點都是你們的台南很多地啊沒有沒有那個要重新蓋的話那可能這個部長你支持嗎點頭就好了"},{"start":9602.898,"end":9620.171,"text":"部長的支持所以一個月之內針對在北高雄成立這個中小企業組你主管的成立這個新創這個聚落或新創園區提出一個完整的規劃說明撒各位好不好另外你要提供對這個新創事業"},{"start":9622.83,"end":9649.239,"text":"新創事業當然需要更多的政府的協助我希望你能夠針對中南部的中小企業也好或中南部的新創事業也好提供更多具體的協助北部當然一方面北部可能相對資源比較多相對的人才也都集中在這邊南部也有人才南部也有新創需求所以對南部新創基地特別是高雄"},{"start":9651.514,"end":9678.204,"text":"新創的資源分配要多一點在高雄特別是北高雄所以署長這部分我會定期的跟你做討論你需要把你的過去一年執行的狀況針對高雄在南部對高雄你扶植的新創產業的具體的成果是一個月之內是不是給我相關的資料最後這個"},{"start":9680.531,"end":9696.46,"text":"再生能源,再生能源就是李副署長是再生能源規模是多少?再生能源大概6點多億,再生能源基金並不大那目前我們推動再生能源的費用大部分是在需要基金裡面"},{"start":9697.867,"end":9713.424,"text":"你你今年的這個主要的基金用途是在增加太陽能深色的留神優化是是這個經費這個部分啊你能不能具體再說明一下是主要是太陽能的深色主要是地面型的用在地面型的"},{"start":9713.744,"end":9728.539,"text":"因為他案件非常多一年大概我們目前大概有六七千件的案件那所以我們尤其是地面型的有涉及一些環境的議題還有土地的程序那你那個所謂模組的回收費是什麼東西"},{"start":9728.999,"end":9748.918,"text":"模組的回收會是我們現在太陽光電未來現在用它20年的經濟受領到了之後它就會變成廢棄物那我們現在是要求 那為什麼要由你來回收呢我們是提供一個基金它在設置的時候它就要繳每K瓦是1000元的基金作為未來處理的費用也就是說它經濟受領完成之後要處理它的廢棄物那這要一筆錢"},{"start":9752.802,"end":9765.257,"text":"那這個我們是跟環境部合作的那我們在一開始的時候就把它收起了免得它未來以後20年到它就跑掉了所以我們是等於前方在那裏作為未來處理廢棄物使用"},{"start":9766.775,"end":9767.736,"text":"最後請教一下楊博跟楊局長"},{"start":9790.14,"end":9815.666,"text":"白浦財運園區你什麼時候要給我?像委員報告白浦園區的部分目前是高雄市政府在規劃我當然知道啊那現在是爭取才有的對那現在高雄市政府變成這個喬科的第二區對不對所以上次有跟委員報告那你要還給我一塊有有現在已經上次有跟委員報告過就是那個在喬科的南方的部分我們要找一塊哎呀我在我選區啊你不要對對對一定會找到"},{"start":9816.526,"end":9840.733,"text":"已經有確定的區位了嗎?目前是看重喬科南方的有一塊土地既然已經確定區位就開始啟動作業流程因為你這個國土計畫實施之後還要相關的地目變更這個當然我知道這個部分我當然討論過好幾次但是越早啟動你到時候才能趕快這個"},{"start":9841.613,"end":9842.414,"text":"我們現在請林德福委員做詢答"},{"start":9876.176,"end":9886.128,"text":"謝謝召委是不是我們來請王部長還有水利署賴署長還有我們台電許副總"},{"start":9894.092,"end":9906.765,"text":"王部長我請教因為本席去年在3月的時候有問過這個題目我現在再問一次如果台電正式匯除核四把核四認列損失馬上就增加了2800億的虧損媒體報導台電核四轉型方案將改為綠能的綜合電廠"},{"start":9917.595,"end":9931.354,"text":"相關合適的損失政府將採婚年認列來減損以電匯婚年婚攤來收回那我請問部長在520前會不會有定案"},{"start":9933.791,"end":9957.323,"text":"應該是還沒有還沒有定案那我請教因為2023年其實超徵有3617億為例那本席我本來是希望說其實你超徵的稅收一次把它處理把那個合適的問題避免電價再度調漲這個部長你有什麼看法其實一次把它處理掉因為你電價以後漲你漲電價一漲百物期漲"},{"start":9962.87,"end":9966.914,"text":"事實上3600這個問題主計總處這邊應該有多次的說明他是包括中央跟地方的部分那中央的部分那在中央的相關的經費包括能不能讓我們台電來追加預算還有勞保的使用等等那經費確實都已經分配了"},{"start":9984.471,"end":10009.732,"text":"因為你每一次只要這個大家預測說台電會這個可能電價會調漲你百物就先仗在前面這個是很嚴重的問題部長你知道嗎我們確實對這個電價會影響相關的他們已經做了非常謹慎的處理所以在這個民生的或者是內需的這個部分其實漲幅只有7%的部分而已是部長其實齁"},{"start":10013.679,"end":10041.798,"text":"這個事前要怎麼去規劃非常重要你不要說漲了以後而且拉了那麼長結果講實在話現在真的百物齊漲了什麼都漲老百姓這個痛苦指數越來越高因為薪水不漲那個不漲全台有多數水庫蓄水率不到一半什麼水庫蓄水量只剩兩成多"},{"start":10042.759,"end":10059.056,"text":"交通部氣象局預報表示預估春季降雨並不是很樂觀希望民眾絕業用水昨天石門水庫水位只剩219公尺有蓄水量剩"},{"start":10060.259,"end":10074.336,"text":"只有4983萬立方公尺那我請問經濟部目前你們有什麼因應的措施預計什麼水庫、水位降至多少就會啟動離風減壓的供水你們有沒有一些預備的方式換案"},{"start":10077.499,"end":10099.368,"text":"現在目前是還不到這個減壓供水的地步是還不用那我們確實是會謹慎來再看這個枯水期的部分那當然看這個春雨還是能夠挹注的部分未雨綢繆我是認為很重要部長日前已表示水價沒有調漲計畫那我請問部長這個承諾有效期這個520前還是還是一年有效"},{"start":10107.339,"end":10132.454,"text":"目前520之前目前沒有條價的規劃520以後你不知道因為你那時候不當部長了嘛對不對是部長水資源作業基金113年預算編列耗水會有5億元收入可用於節約用水的推動2015年經濟部曾推動補助購買省水的洗衣機、馬桶等等"},{"start":10133.194,"end":10157.012,"text":"無預的預算每年可節省821萬噸的水量大約一個阿公電水庫有那麼大的水量蓄水量我是希望說經濟部應用這些耗水費收入來規劃省水產品的補助加速民眾來更換這個省水洗衣機、馬桶、節水又減碳一舉兩得,您的看法呢?"},{"start":10158.019,"end":10172.12,"text":"謝謝委員那因為那個今年度會到4月截止然後之後收取的費用是多少那這個怎麼規劃水利署會謹慎來做規劃我是任委署長賴署長這個事情要規劃而且要多做宣導阿"},{"start":10173.271,"end":10189.608,"text":"你的看法勒當然要多多宣導因為大幅可以節水對整體的社會都是有幫助的對啊你這個要未雨綢繆而且這個是長遠的計畫長遠的看法每一年都會逢到好不好大前天4月15號台電發生大跳機"},{"start":10190.629,"end":10216.547,"text":"那其實北台灣差點大停電還是這個協調科技業減電這個減少用電並幫忙發電才搶救回來但能造成桃園以及北部新北地區有一些停電那部長您在111年的303全台大停電後您有自行處分說個人不在乎個人的去留那如今520內閣"},{"start":10218.57,"end":10220.397,"text":"經濟部長的人選已經有出現了"},{"start":10221.721,"end":10229.466,"text":"那王部長您是我能夠承諾520前若要是再像這種大規模停電跳電的狀況你就請辭下臺你的看法呢這個部分我們當然要負責任但是因為這一陣子確實是因為地震造成的損傷那企業的部分有發電機幫我們發電但是他沒有減少用電所以對產業的生產都沒有影響所以說你認為520前絕對是很safe"},{"start":10252.041,"end":10273.674,"text":"沒有問題我們一定是要把它做好相關的管理我也希望如此那個最後一個議題太陽能光電發展與我國電網的發展更新速度息息相關那媒體報導波蘭這個電網營運商因為太陽能發電增長的速度過快而在今年就必須這個"},{"start":10276.135,"end":10292.842,"text":"三次的切斷綠能併網的連接因為其綠能擴張過快已經超過波瀾電網負荷量的程度反而可能造成跳電斷電的風險那部長我國是否也有沒有相同的狀況"},{"start":10294.062,"end":10301.551,"text":"沒有每個國家的情形不太一樣那對台灣的部分我們除了綠能之外那另外除能還有我們的電網的這個設置其實是相當所以說沒有這個問題就對了我們沒有剛才委員講的這個情形"},{"start":10309.901,"end":10337.213,"text":"波蘭未來將逐步的來升級電網以因應再生能源的成長那我國行政院在303大停電後同年也提出說要強化電網韌性建設計畫10年5645億新台幣來升級電網那請問上述預算包括綠能、並往連接的這些部分有沒有需要再增加預算以建立以再生能源並往連接"},{"start":10339.214,"end":10367.544,"text":"跟委員報告這裡的經費就包括做這樣的一個分散電網的需求了我認為這個很重要是好不好謝謝是謝謝接下來我們請王宏威委員請做詢答好謝謝主席我請王部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":10372.895,"end":10389.655,"text":"好 委員好部長你應該知道這幾天桃園的居民非常崩潰因為到今天早上連續三天的大停電而且今天早上的停電範圍將近一萬戶那幾乎已經是分區在停電"},{"start":10391.222,"end":10409.927,"text":"請問一下部長你所掌握的狀況為什麼桃園這幾天連續的在停電跳電跟委員報告今天早上確實我也看到那個有大雷雨大雷雨對那這個大雷雨會對地方的配電的這些設備等台北有沒有大雷雨"},{"start":10410.727,"end":10429.154,"text":"臺北也有大雷雨所以只要有大雷雨任何地方都可能發生跳電是不是大雷雨會對地方到家戶的這些好那我想請問今天早上大雷雨前天晚上大前天晚上應該是昨天晚上跟在前天晚上有大雷雨嗎"},{"start":10430.524,"end":10435.226,"text":"沒有大雷雨不是我們確實是一個是纜線的這個跳脫一個是設備的為何通通發生在桃園今天如果是發生在台北我們也受不了昨天的部分確實在桃園你們有很多的理由我請問部長你要不要跟桃園的居民"},{"start":10454.313,"end":10455.555,"text":"說道歉連續3天部長還有我們可不可以"},{"start":10473.417,"end":10498.445,"text":"在這邊保證只要今天早上為止這個停電可以結束了一個連續桃園不會在近期之內再發生這樣的大規模停電可以保證嗎這個不能用保證但是我們發生這個設備損壞我們一定會用最快的速度來修復那我想今天早上委員也講了那這個目前都已經恢復了是"},{"start":10499.245,"end":10508.728,"text":"當然要恢復啊所以也就是說我們一再說要強調我們的一個就是在電線的韌性上面你們現在也沒有辦法做到嗎這不是缺電的問題可是問題電網韌性還是有問題啊在桃園集中這樣子連續三天不知道是第四度還第五度已經數不清楚了所以我覺得在這一點對桃園居民是非常非常的不公平"},{"start":10525.433,"end":10535.904,"text":"那另外剛才林德福委員也特別提到其實尤其你們剛剛調整電價然後就發生連續的大停電剛才我在我們的財委會還在問主計長主計處在講說我們現在的通膨壓力當然有來自於電價的上漲"},{"start":10544.893,"end":10550.182,"text":"而我們現在通膨壓力下其實有關於房租我們房租已經連續8個月到3月份連續8個月都超過百分之二這是過去從來沒有發生過的"},{"start":10557.645,"end":10577.035,"text":"所以也就是這樣通膨壓力還有升息大家也知道央行升息就為了為了你漲電價嘛所以我們一直在講錯誤的能源政策一定要改弦易張一定要跟動當然你馬上要離開經濟部我希望未來的新政府應該針對我們的能源政策應該做全面的去做檢討那另外請教部長我們今天"},{"start":10582.958,"end":10584.92,"text":"何時會啟動核三廠的核廢料處置?"},{"start":10599.588,"end":10624.659,"text":"因為核三廠它目前的用過核燃料的部分不多嘛 對不對對它大概還有5年的容量所以我們大概包含一二號機組都還有5年容量對是嗎對所以現在不需要啟動核三廠所以這就是部長啊我們為什麼在講說我們希望核電延益核電延益現在全世界潮流都是如此"},{"start":10625.546,"end":10632.328,"text":"美國研議日本研議美國現在有些電廠還要把它延到80年那當然他們會要經過一些評估所以我們一直在講你們常常用核二廠說哎呀這個核燃料棒啊這個呃這個呃他的該是儲存槽那每次說啊新北市政府怎麼樣怎麼樣問題可是核三廠剛才也講核三廠的核燃料標根本沒有滿所以核三廠其實是可以在你們研議的開始"},{"start":10653.976,"end":10670.904,"text":"可是為什麼不做呢?是 發言委員他基本上如果說核三廠雖然他只有5年可是我研議的部分你還是需要後面的你現在就可以開始開始來做所以我就說你到現在你的意思說你根本不用去做核三廠的核廢料處置"},{"start":10672.085,"end":10686.351,"text":"但是在我們現在整個的電源的就整個能源結構極不穩定而且現在看起來都要調高電價的一個狀況之下我在這邊還是重申雖然部長或者也許你們我不曉得會不會有職務的調動我還是覺得你們能夠以民生為念"},{"start":10692.794,"end":10717.233,"text":"以我們的產業發展為念能夠把這個核電廠可以開始啟動研議計畫發言委員研議的部分說實在還是要有法規的部分我們有修法呀我們有修法你們行政院也可以提出版本啊你們行政院如果要做的話也不需要我們立法院沒有修法你們也在做現在我們還有修法很多人還說我們修法是幫你們解套其實我覺得我是幫全台灣人解套啊"},{"start":10721.576,"end":10739.996,"text":"是不是我們今天不必不需要為了什麼政治之爭、政黨之爭而是我相信部長自己本身也提到太多產業界的意見了吧到現在為止如果我們還不做一些更動我們還不能夠做一些改變還要死守著反核神主白"},{"start":10740.536,"end":10769.085,"text":"還要死守住2025非核家園的省主牌那麼全台灣要付出慘痛的代價這個我時間到了我希望即便是在部長即將卸任仍然苦口婆心今天你們如果能夠動念一下能夠為整個的產業發展民生用電我們現在的電價如果按照這樣走下去電價只會上漲然後我們整個通膨只會加重然後我們的所有的租屋族只會苦不堪言謝謝"},{"start":10777.039,"end":10778.159,"text":"王美花部長和台電"},{"start":10805.282,"end":10806.403,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10836.383,"end":10855.242,"text":"道歉了幾次?跟委員報告齁,那這個我們講的都不是叫扯啦齁,那這個事實就是事實。有,不是啊,我現在問的問題是有沒有算過部長任內道歉了幾次?我沒有特別算,但是因為...那有意向中道歉幾次?沒有特別想這些事情,對。"},{"start":10857.001,"end":10873.313,"text":"講過都不記得也不是啦犯了錯、道歉了、反正催淪賠交換這個也不是講過都不記得本席幫你回憶一下至少我們可以查到就有三次三次都跟什麼有關?記得嗎?"},{"start":10875.56,"end":10891.813,"text":"都是跟電有關都跟電有關阿2021年有全台大跳電五天內兩次停電經濟部長道歉2022年3月3號全台大停電經濟部長道歉今年"},{"start":10893.512,"end":10908.953,"text":"龍潭桃園連三天跳電經濟部長又道歉每一次道歉都一定會講一句不容許再發生這樣的錯誤了不容許再讓國人沒有電可以用了結果道歉完還是一樣啊"},{"start":10910.114,"end":10919.436,"text":"道歉完還是這樣子啊還是一而再再而三的道歉啊很廉價的道歉國人、民眾感受不到我不知道說部長哪來的勇氣可以在國會殿堂裡面講說你的道歉是真誠的我剛連問你說你道歉過幾次你也不記得了然後你的道歉理由你只記得說跟電有關"},{"start":10937.483,"end":10965.644,"text":"我之前在總職學園就問過你你的勇氣到底是梁靜茹給你還是張正岳給你的我覺得我們做事情就是為國家認真來做事情部長想請教4月15號這一次我們有提到也有人講到是說這個金掌或是說這個台電高層緊急出手打電話給我們這些國內的大戶請他們要嘛就是降載要嘛就是啟動他們的一些備用電源有沒有這樣的事情"},{"start":10966.401,"end":10973.543,"text":"我們在這個非常緊急的像這種臨時出狀況的部分我們確實有電話聯絡有電話聯繫是當初電話聯絡聯絡了多少家業者因為這個是台電這邊來做相關的聯絡總經理請回答當然這個部分我們是針對用電比較大的用戶聯絡了多少家廠商"},{"start":10995.458,"end":10999.56,"text":"媒體報導也有講是說當天的備轉容量率最低的時候到2.8%2.8%換算成這個千瓦的話會是多少?"},{"start":11017.025,"end":11020.948,"text":"臺電有個內規叫做臺灣電力公司電源不足時期限制用電辦法執行及通報機制有嗎?"},{"start":11020.948,"end":11020.968,"text":"有"},{"start":11045.23,"end":11073.212,"text":"他有講到如果說少於90萬千瓦的時候要召開第1次的緊急會議所以剛有提到4月15號是低於90萬千瓦有沒有召開緊急會議跟委員報告發生低於剛剛講到八八八十萬這個是到了晚上的6點16分是那有沒有召開緊急會議那我們在前面都會有召開會議每天都會開會但是說會議的頻度跟他的那個層級"},{"start":11074.193,"end":11082.447,"text":"本席現在要問的是說你剛剛已經承認了台電內部我們有電源不足時期限制用電辦法執行跟通報機制"},{"start":11084.053,"end":11102.213,"text":"他有講到如果說少於90萬千瓦要召開第1次的緊急會議如果更急迫少於50萬千瓦要召開第2次的緊急會議並且要即刻通報經濟部經濟部也要成立緊急應變小組對嗎沒有錯那本席現在請教"},{"start":11104.574,"end":11122.022,"text":"4月15號那天有沒有依照相關規定召開緊急會議我們是在當天的早上8點10分跟12點召開會議但是那個不叫緊急會議因為那個時候的備轉容量率還有在6%以上是安全的是很安全的本席現在問是2.8%的時候有沒有依照我們的內部通報機制"},{"start":11126.744,"end":11150.716,"text":"召開緊急會議我們相關同仁都在我們的緊急會議室但是沒有那個名目說召開這個緊急會議沒有這個名目但是我們的高階主管全部在那個地方那你做出來決策你好那本席要請教所以你今天打給這10家工業大戶你是用什麼樣的名義跟決策我們有所謂的虛量反應我們有虛量反應的機制第一個是虛量反應的機制虛量反應的機制也是有合約的關係"},{"start":11157,"end":11170.386,"text":"您聽得懂剛本席的疑問跟質詢了嗎?是台電內部有我剛提到的這個是我們也是依照相關條例台電內部有設立電源不足時期限制用電辦法"},{"start":11172.113,"end":11192.119,"text":"限制優先辦法明文就已經有規定了如果說低於90萬千瓦的時候要召開緊急會議那也要通報經濟部但是剛剛總經理也承認了就是說其實當天已經低於90萬千瓦了但是沒有依照相關的辦法來召開緊急會議他又嘗試說大家有在這個會議裡面但是沒有來成立這樣的一個應變小組"},{"start":11193.399,"end":11214.49,"text":"那可是有去打電話給這10家的工業大戶那我們就要問這10家工業大戶他到底是依照什麼樣的法源依據先工業大戶算是配合啊因為可能也認為是說我們國家共體時間大家覺得是說好如果說現在真的你告訴我們你是發電機關你是發電公司你告訴我們說電源不夠了我們該降的降該調整的調整"},{"start":11216.111,"end":11235.906,"text":"但是你沒有相關法源依據啊因為如果說你有成立這個緊急會議的話你才能夠有法源依據來去要求不是嗎而且有沒有依照相關的規定來通報經濟部還是現在都是因為5月20號之前了所以大家便宜行事換件手機拿起來卡這個LINE傳這個"},{"start":11237.307,"end":11260.338,"text":"阿大家用人情拜託的阿總經理平常是跟你也不錯你保證跟平常是跟我們也不錯所以我就傳訊給你我就打電話給你你就這樣就對了你就啟動就對了國家做事都沒有一個法源都沒有一個辦法我可不可以我說明一下齁那第一個委員講的那個時段事實上他們台電的所有的高階通貨都在這個25樓的會議裡面那這個會議事實上 那為什麼沒有依照法規"},{"start":11264.76,"end":11273.764,"text":"為什麼沒有依照辦法來成立緊急應變小組來召開緊急會議那個時間比較重要是來解決問題那所有的高管都已經在這邊出了這個問題了本時要問的後續本時要問的後續就是請提供緊急會議的會議記錄"},{"start":11282.025,"end":11293.115,"text":"有沒有沒有那是不是又是黑箱作業你就是讓沒有錯 緊急會議就是要處理事情但是你的會議記錄在哪裡這不是說明就可以解決的如果說我們國家內做事當然要解決問題但是更重要的是你的法源依據在哪裡"},{"start":11308.368,"end":11333.506,"text":"三秒鐘也是開會成立趕快決策有人負責三分鐘之內就可以做出決定這就有法源依據你有辦法如果說你的辦法出來之後你沒有依照相關的辦法去做而是每一次都是用人質的都是私下拜託的你除了第一沒有法源依據第二便宜行事第三是迴避國會的監督這個"},{"start":11335.007,"end":11336.329,"text":"本席在問說那緊急會議的會議記錄在哪裡當天做錯決策會議記錄在哪裡"},{"start":11350.649,"end":11352.309,"text":"委員提供所以當天有會議記錄嗎?當然沒有會議記錄部長親口承認4月15號在那麼緊急的狀況下沒有會議記錄大家就是共同的來"},{"start":11374.076,"end":11402.005,"text":"黑箱作業這個不叫黑箱這個解決問題最重要啊當然解決問題最重要但是你現在便宜形式本席就已經講出來了一開始我就講說有沒有這樣的辦法當然最重要就是要解決事情最重要嘛我講不客氣的要所謂的舊電是誰造成的也是你台電也是你經濟部不是嗎能源政策左肢右臭能源政策搞得讓大家覺得說提心吊膽能源政策搞得要去掉頭寸"},{"start":11402.985,"end":11423.913,"text":"這不是你經濟部造成的嗎你今天反客為主你今天反客為主你今天顛倒是非你今天讓大家覺得是說明明是你自己闖出來的禍結果你今天有這樣的一個緊急狀況還沒有會議記錄這不黑箱 什麼才是黑箱我完全不能接受這種東西不管你接不接受因為這根本不是你的權利這不是你的權利我們跟這些大用戶都有相關的契約我們都有契約"},{"start":11432.617,"end":11460.015,"text":"臺灣我們中華民國是法治的國家而本來就有相關的辦法你沒有辦法自圓其說我沒有辦法自圓其說部長你沒有辦法自圓其說因為你剛才打行政最重要是你這樣是迴避國會的監督完全迴避國會的監督我說實在的話再道歉100次都不及讓國人有一個合理安全穩定的用電來的重要這是本席給你的最後忠告謝謝"},{"start":11461.309,"end":11474.619,"text":"好 謝謝我想大家都不要激動趕快去把事情理清楚但是行政部門剛剛本席在詢答的時候告訴我是當天都沒有開會"},{"start":11476.623,"end":11489.2,"text":"現在是說這個高階主管都在現場本席也問了到底這一次的事件我們又多花了多少錢告訴我一度的調度是8塊再接下來說10塊最後"},{"start":11492.844,"end":11495.667,"text":"行政部門請你們在回答的時候你把真實的事情講出來"},{"start":11513.043,"end":11532.313,"text":"民眾要知道光光一個這樣的事件發生的時候我們納稅錢還要增加多少這是第一點所以也請台電公司你請剛剛你告訴我你們還沒有統計完成那你們在今天下班前請把它統計完成送交給經濟委員會以及巡達的委員"},{"start":11533.713,"end":11544.226,"text":"王總經理謝謝接下來我們請這才是非常理性的一個討論好不好因為不是罵來罵去罵到最後得不到答案民眾不要這個的接下來我們請黃國昌委員請做詢談"},{"start":11560.319,"end":11565.443,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請部長我們再請王部長台電的代表跟王總經理"},{"start":11573.735,"end":11591.476,"text":"表會好之前我在質詢國發會的時候我是點出來我們的國發基金拿了將近快要30億聯同耀華玻璃去投了一家虧損累累累積虧損上百億的光電公司結果搞了半天了以後"},{"start":11593.499,"end":11611.318,"text":"政府發納稅的錢我不會說那叫產業升級根本讓國發基金變成紓困基金然後那家公司的董事長就成為蔡英文綠年後援會的總會長這樣子的官商關係是我沒有辦法接受的"},{"start":11612.951,"end":11633.724,"text":"這個跟部長沒有關係因為接下來這家公司一片綠油油全部都是用民進黨的權貴在那些公司裡面有的當獨董有的當董事有的安插自己的私人進去但我關心的事情是什麼"},{"start":11634.446,"end":11658.814,"text":"這家公司當初跟經濟部承諾他不會賣股結果拿到了張斌工業區以後聯合再生工程股票賣得乾乾淨淨的套利大賺一筆了以後大賺一筆了以後讓那時候的工業局局長都說這個不是我提高聲量而已我們部長都提高聲量可以這樣胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":11659.534,"end":11682.961,"text":"其中有一個關鍵的問題當初這一家後台很硬的聯合再生去拿張濱工業區那邊的地的時候他裡面有做承諾為了要取得在地的居民在地環保團體的同意點頭他們做了什麼承諾他們做的承諾是他們要保留一個生態熱區"},{"start":11684.677,"end":11704.813,"text":"結果案場拿到了土地拿到了賣股錢賺了結果前面的承諾全部拋諸腦後發文要求經濟部工業局同意他們我們之前承諾的那個生態特區算了不要做了部長有沒有這樣的事"},{"start":11706.933,"end":11711.118,"text":"第一個他在生態熱區的部分他確實招標的時候有講不過他是提到他3跟4兩個部分標到的話他要來做因為這個生態熱區會跨到3跟4兩個的地域但是他最後只拿到一個標案沒有拿到兩個標案"},{"start":11726.275,"end":11726.315,"text":"執行部長"},{"start":11756.355,"end":11784.749,"text":"來看我先跟部長講我的立場是廠商在拿標案的時候做了很多承諾目的是什麼他要拿到好的分數他要拿到那個標案結果東西標案到手落袋了以後前面做的承諾全部都忘了能不做就不做廠商從他自私自利的立場或許可以這樣幹但我把這件事情提出來的理由是什麼經濟部也好"},{"start":11785.717,"end":11803.689,"text":"我們的主管機關也好要有自己的立場不能讓廠商這樣胡作非為部長剛剛說了我提了這個問題以後你們會請聯合再生好好說明我靜待我靜待他們最後說明的結果以及經濟部做什麼樣子的處置"},{"start":11805.229,"end":11831.003,"text":"國家的光電政策絕對不是讓這些覺得自己後台很硬的廠商愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞除了這些以外我們繼續再往下看聯合再生一樣跑去跟台水拿標案取得台水公司的光電標案讓台水放他們的光電板台灣自然水公司啦暗場我全部都列下來"},{"start":11832.359,"end":11844.07,"text":"結果他拿到了這個案場以後現在開始要做什麼事情開始要進行契約的變更聯合再生內部討論的時候說這個電我們來賣給雲豹可以賺更多的錢"},{"start":11851.578,"end":11863.553,"text":"那為什麼要賣給雲豹內部會議討論說因為雲豹我們可以處理台水可以處理台電他們通通都會同意我們來修改契約"},{"start":11864.813,"end":11892.421,"text":"我接到這個檢舉了以後我一定要求證我不是說人家怎麼講我就怎麼相信所以我召集了台電跟台水到黨團的辦公室來我當面據你跟他們提出這個檢舉有沒有這樣的事台電跟台水都跟我說有他們有提出換約的要求我那個時候告訴我們的國營事業堅守立場哈"},{"start":11893.851,"end":11921.81,"text":"你們是在為國家做事不是在為特定的光電業者謀利結果台水有堅守立場台水含附給我的是回復聯合再生我們不同意修改合約台水堅守立場但我今天利用質詢的時候特別跟部長報告這件事情是這個聯合再生非常的囂張台水不同意他們現在的計畫是什麼硬幹"},{"start":11924.612,"end":11951.574,"text":"臺水不同意關臺水不同意我們還是要硬幹完全不理臺水的意見他們也發了什麼他們也發了約跟臺電說他要跟中子跟臺電之間啊各受的合約這件事情是不是真的我今天不了解了報告委員這件事情是真的確實他要跟我們解約就是FIT臺電同意了沒有"},{"start":11953.591,"end":11980.183,"text":"我瞭解的是在公司的程序上我們因為是希望把綠電都給民間業者的廠商所以你們同意嗎?是嗎?原則上我們是同意這樣子的案子所以嘛就落入他們的套路了嘛好來請經濟部部長台電要同意台電負責但台水什麼?台水不同意喔當初喔當初台水跟他們簽約的時候是已經講好了喔"},{"start":11981.65,"end":12008.242,"text":"我把這些案場給你一度多少錢要怎麼算全部簽了什麼約這個又是第二個例子第二個例子喔第二個例子是什麼廠商拿到國家的資源了以後他真的在幫國家想嗎他沒有在幫國家想他愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞講話很囂張欸我背後我可以找到人去處理啊"},{"start":12009.232,"end":12015.707,"text":"我就是要硬闖阿你台水不同意又如何這件事情部長知不知道"},{"start":12017.77,"end":12040.802,"text":"委員我這樣聽起來有幾個可能需要我需要了解假設今天他的太陽光電是賣給台電那是短購費率但是他要跟台電中止去賣給民間我們是歡迎的因為這個就直接賣給民間台電就不需要短購費率來收購那至於委員講的這個台水的部分不要這個我回去再了解是什麼樣的一個狀況因為台水也好台電也好"},{"start":12044.344,"end":12070.814,"text":"上面全部主管機關都是我們的經濟部嘛我今天利用這個質詢告訴部長一個基本的觀念廠商他們站在他們自己的立場他們想要賺錢但我的要求只有一個我們的主管機關在面對這件事情的時候是要站在納稅人的立場站在國家的立場以納稅人的立場跟國家的利益為最優先不可以讓他們這個樣子愛怎麼搞就怎麼搞"},{"start":12071.576,"end":12093.083,"text":"守法如出一策阿當初拿張斌工業區的時候做一堆承諾拿到了以後愛怎麼改就怎麼改反正我們主管機關不會管嘛阿把主管機關當小孩的阿我先騙到了騙到了以後我後續要怎麼處理修改契約、變更契約生態熱區不用保留"},{"start":12095.282,"end":12111.804,"text":"手法一模一樣部長您看不出來嗎?可能這兩個案情不太一樣齁不太一樣那這個我回去再瞭解委員在部長您需要多少時間?這個我一個禮拜應該就可以瞭解一下一個禮拜請經濟部給我書面報告這件事要怎麼處理可以嗎?好可以沒問題"},{"start":12118.032,"end":12140.643,"text":"好謝謝那我們接下來請李博義委員請做詢答那我們中午不休息一直到我們會議的完整結束謝謝謝謝我們請部長休息後請那個請產業人區管理局局長陳局長"},{"start":12146.411,"end":12169.719,"text":"楊局長局長你好今天審定今天是做這個經濟作業基金的這些報告那其實我在4月9號的時候其實我有到我們的男子產業園區那去做一個協調會這個局長應該有掌握那局長知道後續我們這個產業園區要做的事情是什麼嗎"},{"start":12170.439,"end":12191.025,"text":"向委員報告委員那一天的結論的部分第一個就是請臺電公司規劃一下就是說大用電戶161KV的因為今天臺電來參與的是副總是許副總那因為當天是陳副總陳副總對這個電網的這一些業務比較熟悉所以我沒有請臺電我沒有請臺電上來總經理那總經理聽一下第二個結論的部分就是"},{"start":12199.167,"end":12220.714,"text":"未來園區內廠商需電的量的部分請我們跟廠商這邊多多的瞭解我們來講第一個結論第一個結論就是要請台電請我們園區管理局跟台電把161伏特也就是地下的比較穩定的電源可以拉到園區來"},{"start":12222.375,"end":12250.777,"text":"目前只有第二園區的日月光它目前已經有深設一個但是第一園區可能我們要園區管理局這邊協助台電把空間找出來非常多的廠商當天包含華泰、國巨等等日月光等等都有參與這個會議那當然這個會議也釐清了很多我們用電的這些問題包含可能秀一下這個也跟讓總經理清楚那天陳副總來說明的"},{"start":12252.378,"end":12272.949,"text":"我們外在可能會影響到園區用電會跟民生用電有稍微有重疊的部分目前都在整理但是確實廠商需要的是更穩定的這些高壓用電那這高壓用電需要園區管理局跟台電共同來籌設也必須要台電來做這個重大的投資"},{"start":12273.829,"end":12297.607,"text":"那這一方面是不是請總經理當天帶回來之後現在已經經過十幾天了有沒有相關的規劃跟計劃跟委員報告因為主要是這三個便利店所供應的範圍有園區裡面也有園區外面的一般民間所以它的接線的方式的複雜度比較高那我們是希望這裡面的園區能夠整合成"},{"start":12298.007,"end":12327.082,"text":"用一個161的特高壓的電然後直接給這些用電比較大的業者然後呢我們再把這個剛剛講的那幾個變電所再整理一下一些重要的用戶我們把他的這個用電啊其中在某幾個變電所供進去園區就是園區內的用電園區用園區外的用電就讓園區外的變電所總之我請教你一個外接161的這個輸出電路齁在園區裡面要籌設的話目前日月光公司自己申辦一個"},{"start":12327.722,"end":12351.58,"text":"那如果其他園區需要合併起來籌設的話,臺電能不能主動來提供這個評估跟服務?我們會協助業者來做這件事。還是要業者?對,因為這個是一個土地問題。就是他3000瓦、5000瓦這樣加起來不到這個,但是確實是要超過10家的話,確實是需要這個穩定的電路。那這一方面還是要園區管理局還是要臺電一起來做這件事情。"},{"start":12352.841,"end":12353.101,"text":"原區有什麼困難?"},{"start":12362.791,"end":12391.35,"text":"原區現在正在盤點就是上次委員有會議結論之後我們也正在盤點那我們現在尋找的部分大概就是我們因為委員知道就是原區開發已經56年了所以原區的空地比較少我們會找綠地綠地的部分這個就是空地有困難之外接電也有困難第二點我對於南梓的這個第三第三園區的這個進度我也持續關心那再請管理園區這邊再給我一些進度的報告謝謝是"},{"start":12395.652,"end":12403.915,"text":"陳婷菲委員、陳婷菲、陳婷菲委員不在現場羅敏財委員、羅敏財、羅敏財、羅敏財委員不在現場何新淳委員、何新淳、何新淳委員不在現場陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在現場"},{"start":12417.639,"end":12431.15,"text":"登記發言委員除了不在場之外其餘都已經發言完畢,詢答結束,我們有參議員委員、陳昭明委員、陳廷飛委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報,書面質詢"},{"start":12433.752,"end":12449.303,"text":"以及未及答覆的部分請相關單位於一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會各位同仁針對於討論事項所列的四個基金預算案如果有修正動議或者是相關的提案請於4月25日"},{"start":12451.144,"end":12468.351,"text":"星期四中午12點以前送經濟委員會辦公室一例後續的一個會診預時不再收案那麼我們今天本日的議程所列的討論事項尋答結束令定期進行審查現在散會謝謝"},{"start":12480.728,"end":12480.91,"text":"對,就是這樣"},{"start":12493.523,"end":12512.558,"text":"公佈公佈公佈公佈公佈"},{"start":12514.659,"end":12537.763,"text":"第11屆第1會期經濟部主管：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：經濟部主管：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":12545.054,"end":12551.386,"text":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會第3次全體委員會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}