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t":392.267,"end":396.23,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":416.124,"end":426.555,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":440.128,"end":441.429,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":460.658,"end":462.5,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":482.618,"end":490.472,"text":"所以當然我將來我還是會去請教在合法範圍內我會去請教那個高雄高分檢是怎麼回事請他們能夠"},{"start":492.544,"end":512.473,"text":"我們了解一下狀況是怎麼樣,我還是這樣,我絕對不干涉個案,但是我希望通案的去了解,會不會國家還有其他人遇到一樣的狀況。就是他無處可申約嘛,整個國家又沒有幫他,那這時候我們這樣做對嗎?司法是保護人民,是維護社會正義,還是司法是找人家麻煩?"},{"start":514.514,"end":534.244,"text":"委員這個簡單一句話,委員講這個,因為這個案子我們也注意到,因為這個案子判決確定,所以我們現在正在研究,是不是體體非常上訴,謝謝沒有,我剛剛在談的不是這個,我剛剛在談的是家屬申請評議部,那個是無期徒刑確定,這跟非常上訴無關,總統還是要麻煩您聽我的問題啦"},{"start":540.693,"end":559.72,"text":"議員報告因為評議部是法院司法院所以這個問題是要請問司法院因為法務部我們無從去處理評議部不是不是你弄錯你們都弄錯部長你不能這樣亂打喔你這樣亂打我覺得你真的很沒意思因為案子確定後了我跟你說"},{"start":560.97,"end":586.801,"text":"可以來申請月覽評議部的有被告有檢察官但是死者家屬不能申請嘛所以他今天能做的就是問院方我可不可以申請評議部院方說你不行你不是當事人這時候如果檢察官願意幫他申請的話他也可以啊但他今天得到的結論是檢察官不願意欸欸我不知道部長中央你們是假裝聽不懂我的話嗎我覺得我講得很清楚啊"},{"start":589.942,"end":617.76,"text":"公文報告啦,當然只是因為已經確定進入執行的話當然已經沒有刑訴法的適用這要回到政府資訊公開法或是檔案法的規定檔案法,但如果已經確定的話規檔就檔案法去適用如果沒有的話政府資訊公開法來閱覽但是它有另外一個前提因為是評議部另外我們法院組織法106條就這個閱覽有一個特別的規定沒有老師謝謝你來你看一下那個公文幫我把公文放出來你看一下高分檢是怎麼回他的"},{"start":618.921,"end":634.133,"text":"麻煩你們看一下右邊那個他是說本案非死刑判決案件沒有調閱的必要性我今天就這公文的去請教當然法規你說用法規去告訴人民不行那我們公文上面寫清楚"},{"start":635.094,"end":640.638,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":663.835,"end":691.819,"text":"我也覺得高雄高分遣不能這樣欺負當事人嘛那你告訴他法規說不行那我們可以接受但你不能講這個說啊不是死刑案件沒有調閱的必要那那這樣家屬當然會覺得他是個孤兒啊各位報告啊這個台中高雄高分遣可能誤會委員要調閱的意思啦所以他以為是殺人的案件事實上這個案子是判無極度刑的案件跟現罷108其實是沒有關係的他可能誤會了委員的意思"},{"start":693.58,"end":720.751,"text":"但是我看到高雄高分解還是這樣嘛那高雄高分解是不是要出來解釋為什麼是這個說法或是他們能不能夠引用正確的條文去給家屬回覆那家屬他再依據看有什麼政治的方式像譬如說老師剛剛說的那個資訊公開法用那個方式去申請調閱那這是另外一個層次的問題所以這個部分可能要麻煩你們給我一個回覆好嗎"},{"start":721.533,"end":722.314,"text":"稍等稍等稍等稍等"},{"start":740.629,"end":742.55,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":758.78,"end":767.125,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":789.296,"end":814.817,"text":"憲判8出來之後我們國家司法體系一定會再被人民不信任我跟你保證因為人民不像我們念法律我已經是檢查體系出來我已經很能夠跟常常我都跟家屬解釋這不是檢察官的錯不是法官的錯是制度法律沒有修正前只能這樣但是我跟你保證民眾都聽不懂所以在民眾的眼裡就是這個王八蛋政府整天在那邊不保護我們"},{"start":816.115,"end":844.42,"text":"我很多次用力跟他們解釋但是他們聽不進去所以憲法發出來其實造成的問題很多不管是以自決不管是最嚴重到目前都很惹出很多的麻煩性那當然我有多次說其實就是法官在造法法官根本不應該侵害到立法權以及檢察官跟法官的獨立偵查或獨立審判權我都覺得這不是他們能夠去干涉的那另外"},{"start":845.22,"end":860.128,"text":"其實我們這次三、七個人裡面有一個黃春琦跟陳逸龍的那個案子他是非常久以前的案子然後他們是唯一死刑嘛那這個勢必會被非常上訴一定會的嘛因為大法官已經有交代了"},{"start":861.108,"end":874.06,"text":"回到普通法院我會跟各位報告還是之前有請教過總長跟部長的問題他們沒有符合羈押的要件他有逃亡之餘嗎?他有篡政之餘嗎?二、三十年前的案子他要篡什麼政、滅什麼政?"},{"start":876.542,"end":877.883,"text":"三、審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":904.958,"end":929.146,"text":"就不符合刑事訴訟法101跟101之一的羈押要件。那我們一直講,很多實務的也出來講,現在就只有政客跟政客跟那些側翼整天說不可能,叫我們不要危言聳聽。但是你我我們都是,都是司法官出來的,你們也一定懂我在講什麼。那這會是一個很大的問題啦齁。那就像我剛剛講那個黃春祺他們兩個人,他們還適用10年就可以假釋的規定。"},{"start":930.666,"end":957.929,"text":"他行為實施在最早期的法律規定10年就可以扣掉羈押的時間他在如果判無期徒刑確定他不用5、6年就出來了啊那這個社會上面會不會害怕那辱人勒俗欸這真的很可怕齁所以這部分要麻煩要以娼生為念啦雖然部裡面也娼生為念那我希望說要真的要麻煩一下齁那另外齁再給我一分"},{"start":960.403,"end":964.328,"text":"先處理會議時間,上午會議時間繼續進行到排定法案審查完畢為止。"},{"start":972.554,"end":975.675,"text":"司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期"},{"start":990.24,"end":1016.979,"text":"所以不管是檢察官助理的法案推動或相關法案推動或者是打詐法案我都是盡全力的幫忙我並不是說對院檢有仇恨沒有我反而是希望讓我們的院檢能夠走向人民越來越支持所以在這幾個法案以及檢清檢察官跟法官工作量的這幾個法案我都是到處去遊說其他的立委一定要幫忙不要找麻煩所以你們也很清楚從一開始對檢察官助理"},{"start":1018.426,"end":1019.548,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1036.024,"end":1039.868,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":1064.173,"end":1079.714,"text":"公務員報告委員所提到的網路流量紀錄相關的14條之一第2項或是相關執法事實上我們已經完成在預告程序當中了事實上它可以在近期內就"},{"start":1080.915,"end":1101.801,"text":"請問是外部監督單位還是內部監督單位?原則上他是內部監督單位,內控機制。因為你們還沒有推出來,那我再提醒一下,像德國他就是設置外部的中立單位,因為今天如果說我們收集資料的單位跟管考的單位保存跟監督的單位,"},{"start":1102.521,"end":1125.789,"text":"是同一單位或是類似的平常都在一起的單位其實民眾還是會打一個問號那這部分再麻煩老師這邊能夠想一下看能不能夠有什麼去修正能夠讓人民更信任那另外還有一個就是說調閱的部分因為通報法15條其實有某些範圍是檢警可以先就是自行去調閱"},{"start":1126.969,"end":1149.689,"text":"那這個自行去調閱的這個部分,到底有沒有監督?那有沒有中立的監督機制?自行調閱的部分。各位報告,所有相關在11條裡面包括我們職權調取,或者是都在我們這個不在執法裡面的監控範圍,監督的範圍。它的授權規定是包括所有的,所有的調閱都包括。"},{"start":1150.129,"end":1170.814,"text":"包括剛剛委員所提的這個不需要調取票的職權調取的部分,特定犯罪的部分也是要在內控的範圍內內控。就同一個內控機制。對對對。好,那沒關係,那我知道你們的想法。那有沒有想過說這些民眾,因為很多案子我們以前也知道,他這案下去查一查之後發現他"},{"start":1171.914,"end":1173.798,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1183.786,"end":1189.508,"text":"收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金收支部分關於法務部矯正機關作業基金"},{"start":1212.014,"end":1229.164,"text":"各位報告通保法它關於這個救濟的話我們在刑訴的416條它有一個準看高的一個救濟機制嘛倒是這個司法警察的這部分那目前法制上也許還不夠完備那檢察官的調取票的部分他就循416的準看高去處理"},{"start":1230.572,"end":1233.273,"text":"審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管"},{"start":1256.124,"end":1262.192,"text":"那是不是說這麼高的一筆錢給你們那你們還是要說清楚是怎麼用細節怎麼用"},{"start":1264.383,"end":1287.194,"text":"那我們還是要知道啦,就是說這不是小數目,所以細項還是要給我們,讓我們清楚一下那甚至就是說我很在意的一個就是你調取到的資料是由監控,誰監控或是誰保存那這個機制有沒有做好,其實已經上路幾個月都還沒有出來喔,這個然後我們又花了國家那麼多錢"},{"start":1289.235,"end":1316.572,"text":"這個也不太對,所以這部分麻煩你們能夠給我們比較詳細的資料。報告委員,這個整個大的計畫是編在內政部警政署。那有關這個網路流量的後端的分析,我們是包含在這個大的計畫裡面。那因為現在整個的設備都還沒有完全建置起來,所以目前是都沒有的。只是說在法規上,未來這個都必須要有令狀才能夠來執行。"},{"start":1317.873,"end":1341.922,"text":"好那這樣我知道就好那最後我就跟你們提一下就是我希望有幾個東西要麻煩你們回覆一下啦大概就是說我剛剛提到的那個內機內控這個整個配套措施還有調取的比例還有內部審核準博的那個數據希望給我們一下還有調取成功之後呢起訴跟定罪如果有的話"},{"start":1342.842,"end":1370.863,"text":"如果還沒有就沒關係如果已經有案例的話那麻煩這個例子能夠給我們那我稍微去了解一下這個偵查手段比例原則為什麼會要求這樣是因為我們看了之前那個反滲透法抓了一堆人結果後來起訴的比例並沒有很高啊很多後來是簽結或不起訴嘛那我們要去看一下一個法規推出或一個行政行為出來之後他對於人民的侵害比例原則上有沒有問題"},{"start":1371.764,"end":1371.784,"text":"稅務部長"},{"start":1401.704,"end":1403.667,"text":"收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分關於法務部主管收支部分"},{"start":1418.946,"end":1427.839,"text":"對於吳宗憲委員所提出的相關問題請法務部在一個月或調局在一個月之內提出具體詳細的書面說明。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1457,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時42分）謝謝，我們麻煩部長還有總長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長、總長，午安。我這邊想要跟兩位就教的主要是評議簿的問題，其實我們都知道評議簿這個東西就是法官他們在做判決的時候，各個法官在評議簿上面各自對於這個判決的結論去留下紀錄、留下意見，所以當意見不一樣的時候，在合議庭的意見不一樣的時候，其實是少數服從多數。但是在這一次憲判8號出來之後，大法官是要求普通法院法官他如果要判死刑必須要一致決，當然這個一致決現在有很多的爭議，先姑且不論將來的問題，我們先討論37件已經死刑判決的案子，我先請教總長，因為這是通案性討論的一個議題啦！總長，如果我們就這37位死刑犯來講，而且評議簿還在的時候，如果有看到一位法官當初是不同意，請問是不是就要提非常上訴？總長，要麻煩你快一點。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我們現在37件裡面，有30件是沒有評議簿的，7件是有的，目前統計是這樣子。如果說……"],["吳委員宗憲：我的意思是說，如果還有評議簿的，如果裡面有看到確實是有一位合議庭的法官當時是不支持判死刑，這樣子的話，你是不是會提起非常上訴？這個是很重大人命關天的事，麻煩你們真的要認真面對。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我們現在全面把所有的資料都調過來，也發了很多資料給相關的律師，現在30件沒有評議簿，7件有，如果說它沒有一致決的話，我們依法來提起非常上訴。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，就我剛剛所理解，跟總長報告一下，這37位不管是被害者或者是被告，都是人命的問題，所以要麻煩最高檢這邊真的要審慎，要很嚴謹地去面對，這件事情不是在開玩笑，因為畢竟人命關天。我現在得到的資訊是，目前找得到評議簿的，如果在評議簿裡面發現曾經有法官不支持死刑，就是最終審的法官不支持死刑的話，就會提非常上訴。","再來，我下一個問題是，有30件評議簿銷毀了，沒有辦法證明是一致判死，請問總長，目前這個要怎麼處理？因為這都是社會的議題嘛！這個東西我在很久之前就已經提出來了，我不知道最高檢這邊有沒有任何作為、任何因應？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：有，如果沒有評議簿的話，我們基本上就推定它是沒有一致決，以被告最有利來做處理。我也跟委員報告，所有資料現在在我們這邊，已經有33件辯護人來聲請閱卷，13件完成閱卷，我們預計在今年年底以前完成31件閱卷，然後我們也寫了一些通知書給這些辯護律師，希望他們能夠儘速來閱卷，通知他們，等於是提醒他們，如果在這方面有違背法令的話，希望律師在10天內能向本署提起非常上訴。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，我的問題很簡單，只是說評議簿銷毀的部分怎麼處理，我並沒有請教到律師的部分，所以目前總長您的標準就是30件評議簿已經銷毀的，就要當作是沒有一致決要提非常上訴，是這個意思嘛！目前評議簿還在的部分，有沒有一致決的嗎？有沒有沒有一致決的？"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：我們現在有跟相關單位要到這些評議簿，現在要到的有7件，都是有一致決的，7件都有一致決。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，7件有一致決，那萬一要非常上訴，這7件可能就是以其他理由非常上訴，而跟一致決無關嘛！跟一致決有關的，當然就是評議簿裡面，第一個，法官本身就不是一致決或是評議簿已經找不到的、銷毀的，這個就會當作沒有一致決，那這樣子的話，總長，非常上訴的比率會非常、非常、非常高哦！你那30件沒有評議簿的等於全部都非常上訴，然後再加上就算有一致決的，可能還有其他理由，因為大法官講了很多理由嘛！好，那這樣我們就知道，也讓社會釋疑，因為這個標準到今天我們才知道，社會也才會聽到。","我再請教一下，我今天還有一個問題，就是到底誰可以聲請去看評議簿？從這一次師鐸獎女教師的案子來看，我們發現了一個狀況，這個被告後來被判無期徒刑確定，他在憲判8一出來的兩週內就判決確定了，確定之後是無期徒刑，所以當家屬希望去瞭解評議簿裡面到底法官的想法是什麼的時候，發生了一個問題，他向最高法院去聲請的時候，最高法院說你不是當事人，因為這是刑事訴訟法規定的，你不是當事人，所以拒絕。那他拜託臺高檢的高雄分署去幫他聲請，結果高雄分署竟然回復他說因為不是判死刑，所以你也沒有必要聲請，對於這個死者的家屬而言，他只跟我講了一句話，他說我好像是被這個國家拋棄的孤兒。","他的太太被殺死了，然後法院本來判被告死刑，最後改為無期徒刑，上訴被駁回確定，他希望知道發生了什麼事情，結果院方跟他說你不是當事人不可以聲請，檢方跟他說本案不是判死刑所以沒有聲請的必要，就沒有人幫他了，這樣對嗎？我們的司法到底是在保障人民，還是在找人民麻煩？其實這段時間我一直陪著他們的家人一路走過來，我們真的能夠體會他的痛苦耶！他每一次跟我見面，每一次在流眼淚，已經10年了，他們根本傷痛都沒有少過一分啊！今天被告把他的太太殺死了，被告把他們的媽媽殺死了，我們沒有辦法回到過去去挺身而出，去救那個被殺死的女教師，結果這麼多年下來，我們的司法把他改判無期徒刑，好！我尊重你法官改判無期徒刑，結果他今天希望去看評議簿，檢方也不准，院方也不准，所以他才講那一句話，我是這個國家的孤兒，因為整個國家體系沒有人在幫我。","當然將來我還是會去請教，在合法範圍內我會去請教高雄高分檢是怎麼回事，讓我們瞭解一下狀況是怎麼樣，那我還是這樣，我絕對不干涉個案，但是我希望通案的去瞭解會不會國家還有其他人遇到一樣的狀況，就是他無處可申冤嘛！整個國家又沒有幫他，那這時候我們這樣做對嗎？司法是保護人民，是維護社會正義，還是司法是找人家麻煩？總長。"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：簡單一句話，委員講的這個案子我們也注意到，因為這個案子判決確定了，所以我們現在正在研究是不是提起非常上訴，謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：沒有，我剛剛在談的不是這個，我剛剛在談的是家屬聲請調閱評議簿，那個是無期徒刑確定，跟非常上訴無關，總長，還是要麻煩您聽我的問題啦！"],["邢檢察總長泰釗：評議簿的話，它對外是不公開的。"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，因為評議簿是法院、司法院，所以這個問題要請問司法院，我們法務部無從去處理評議簿可不可以閱覽的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是、不是，你們都弄錯，部長，你不能這樣亂答哦！你這樣亂答我覺得你真的很沒意思，因為案子確定後了，我跟你說，可以來聲請閱覽評議簿的有被告、有檢察官，但是死者家屬不能聲請，所以他今天能做的就是問院方我可不可以聲請評議簿，院方說你不行，你不是當事人，這時候如果檢察官願意幫他聲請的話，他也可以啊！但是他今天得到的結論是檢察官不願意耶！我不知道部長、總長你們是假裝聽不懂我的話嗎？我覺得我講得很清楚啊！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個案子已經確定進入執行的話，已經沒有刑訴法的適用，這要回到政府資訊公開法或是檔案法的規定。如果已經確定的話，歸檔了就檔案法去適用，如果沒有的話，政府資訊公開法來閱覽，但是另外有一個前提，因為是評議簿，我們法院組織法第一百零六條就這個閱覽有一個特別的規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒問題，老師，謝謝你。你看一下高分檢是怎麼回他的，麻煩你們看右邊那個公文，它是說本案非死刑判決案件，沒有調閱的必要性欸！我今天就這個公文去請教，你說用法規去告訴人民不行，在公文上面寫清楚，他們講出來，我也會說法規規定這樣，我們只能朝向修法去處理，可是老師，今天它直接說不是判死刑案件，這是高分檢回給家屬的文啊！所以我的意見在這裡。","刑九庭回的我就不講，因為今天司法院沒有在這裡，所以我就不談，司法院說他不是當事人，當然我們依照刑事訴訟法第三條，我也可以理解，但是檢方給他的回復是這樣，家屬一定會跳腳，我看完我也覺得高雄高分檢不能這樣欺負當事人嘛！你告訴他法規說不行，這我們可以接受，但是你不能說這個不是死刑案件、沒有調閱的必要，那這樣家屬當然會覺得他是個孤兒啊！"],["黃次長謀信：高雄高分檢可能誤會委員要調閱的意思啦！它以為是殺人案件，事實上這個案子是判無期徒刑的案件，跟憲判字8號其實是沒有關係的，它可能誤會了委員的意思。"],["吳委員宗憲：那不管，但是我看到高雄高分檢的函是這樣嘛！高雄高分檢是不是要出來解釋為什麼是這個說法，或是他們能不能夠引用正確的條文去給家屬回復，然後家屬再看要依據什麼正式的方式，譬如老師剛剛說的資訊公開法，用那個方式去申請調閱，這是另外一個層次的問題，所以這個部分可能要麻煩你們給我一個回復好嗎？麻煩你們要這樣子。"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：其實最近很多案子，因為法官所謂的是不是最嚴重之罪或者是說不判死，其實已經到不可思議的程度了，就像前幾天鬧出來輪胎行燒死8個人那件事情一樣，當然法官他判無期徒刑的理由是說被告自首，但是在我所知道的，刑法第六十二條修法之後，自首其實是得減輕其刑，也就是法官他會去審酌被告的作為跟發生結果的嚴重性，但是你看8個人裡面，一等親直系血親，尊親屬也被他燒死了，卑親屬也被他燒死了，太太也被他燒死了，也就是說親等非常近的家屬幾乎被他燒光了，結果法官還認為在得減輕其刑的情況下，他還是符合，就把他減為無期徒刑，這個是法官的事啦！這個是法官的事，沒有要請教部長。","在我看來，我覺得憲判8出來之後，我們國家司法體系一定會再被人民不信任，我跟你保證，因為人民不像我們念法律，我已經是檢察體系出來，我常常都跟家屬解釋，這不是檢察官的錯，不是法官的錯，而是制度，法律沒有修正前只能這樣。但是我跟你保證民眾都聽不懂，在民眾的眼裡就是這個王八蛋政府整天在那邊不保護我們，那我很多次用力跟他們解釋，但是他們聽不進去，所以憲判8號出來，其實造成的問題很多，不管是一致決，不管是最嚴重，到目前都惹出很多的麻煩性。當然我也多次說這其實是法官在造法，法官根本不應該侵害到立法權以及檢察官跟法官的獨立偵查或獨立審判權，我都覺得這不是他們能夠去干涉的。","另外，這一次37個人裡面，有一個黃春棋跟陳憶隆的案子，它是非常久以前的案子，然後他們是唯一死刑，這個勢必會被非常上訴，一定會的嘛！因為大法官已經有交代了。好，回到普通法院，我跟各位報告，還是之前有請教過總長跟部長的問題，他們沒有符合羈押的要件，他有逃亡之虞嗎？他有串證之虞嗎？二、三十年前的案子，他要串什麼證、滅什麼證？那他有沒有逃亡之虞？我跟你講，他還活在那個只有BB Call的年代，他在裡面關了二十幾年，跟外界也沒有聯繫，他要怎麼跑？所以將來他們會不會符合羈押的要件，我都整天在擔心這件事情，將來是不是對這37個有要另立專法，真的要請法務部去思考一下，有沒有必要另立一個專法專門針對這37個？因為這37個裡面，有非常多人根本就不符合刑事訴訟法第一百零一條跟第一百零一條之一的羈押要件，那我們一直講，很多實務的也出來講，現在就只有政客跟那些側翼整天說不可能，叫我們不要危言聳聽，但是你我都是司法官出來的，你們一定懂我在講什麼，這會是一個很大的問題啦！","就像我剛剛講黃春棋他們兩個人，他們還適用10年就可以假釋的規定，他行為時是在最早期的法律規定，10年就可以，扣掉羈押的時間，如果判無期徒刑確定，他不用5、6年就出來啦！這個社會上面會不會害怕？那是擄人勒贖欸！這真的很可怕，所以這部分麻煩要以蒼生為念，部裡面要以蒼生為念，真的要麻煩一下。再給我1分鐘。"],["主席：我先處理會議時間：我們上午的會議繼續進行到排定的法案審查完畢為止。請繼續。"],["吳委員宗憲：主席，不好意思。","另外，有幾個跟預算有關的，因為我這一段時間，在立法院10個月，其實你們應該很清楚，這段時間我一直拚命幫院檢在解決問題，不管是檢察官助理的法案推動或相關法案推動，或者是打詐法案，我都是盡全力的幫忙，我並不是對院檢有仇恨，沒有，我反而是希望讓我們的院檢能夠走向人民越來越支持，所以在這幾個法案，以及減輕檢察官跟法官工作量的這幾個法案，我都是到處去遊說其他的立委一定要幫忙，不要找麻煩。你們也很清楚，從一開始對於檢察官助理，很多人是很敵視，到最後大家回過頭來支持，我真的花很多心思希望我們的司法能夠更被尊重、更被信任，所以我也很希望當我們挑出問題的時候，不是我在找麻煩，是真的麻煩你們要能夠把問題解決一下，然後我們就可以跟廣大的民眾講其實司法一直在努力、在改善中。","我請教一下，上次通過打詐四法，已經讓檢警可以瀏覽很多網路上的紀錄內容。當時我們在質詢的時候其實也一直提到一個點，就是有沒有任何保存、監督或管考的單位？不知道你們設計好了沒？因為法案已經上路好久啦！"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，關於委員所提到與網路流量紀錄相關的第十四條之一第六項或相關子法，事實上我們已經研擬完成，在預告程序當中了，近期內就可以推出。"],["吳委員宗憲：請問是外部監督單位還是內部監督單位？"],["黃次長謀信：原則上是內部監督單位，屬於內控機制。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，沒關係，因為你們還沒有推出來，那我再提醒一下，像德國就是設置外部的中立單位。如果蒐集資料的單位、管考單位跟保存及監督單位是同一單位、或是類似平常都在一起的單位，其實民眾還是會打一個問號。這部分再麻煩老師想一下，看看能不能夠作什麼修正，讓人民更信任。","另外還有一點，就是調閱的部分。根據通保法第十五條，其實某些範圍是檢警可以自行調閱的，那麼對於自行調閱的部分到底有沒有監督？有沒有中立的監督機制？我是指自行調閱的部分。"],["黃次長謀信：我剛剛有跟委員報告，在第十一條裡面，包括職權調取，都在子法的監督範圍內。它的授權規定是包括所有調閱，包括委員剛剛所提不需要調取票的職權調取部分、特定犯罪部分，也要在內控範圍內加以內控。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是同一個內控機制喔？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：好吧！沒關係，我知道你們的想法了。","那你們有沒有想過這些民眾，我們也知道以前有很多案子以他字案查一查之後，發現沒有犯罪嫌疑就簽結了嘛！那如果以後有民眾在這些資料被調閱之後接獲通知，才發現權利受侵害，有沒有什麼救濟途徑？如果民眾受到檢察官、警察職權調閱之後發現根本就是烏龍一場，自覺權利受到侵害，或現在有些特定檢察官會把資料給特定媒體，如果查到之後發現構成要件根本就不符合而簽結或作不起訴處分，卻因為資料外洩導致當事人權益受損，你們有沒有想過救濟方式？還是要民眾就去請民事庭處理吧？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，通保法如果涉及救濟的話，在刑訴第四百一十六條有一項準抗告的救濟機制嘛！倒是司法警察這部分，在目前法制上也許還不夠完備，被檢察官調取到的部分就必須循第四百一十六條的準抗告途徑處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：這樣好了，我大概懂你的意思，如果有問題，我會再請教，因為時間的關係。","在我的印象中，如果沒有記錯的話，預算中大概有5億元是針對這次打詐或網路監控方面的資料、流量分析等等，編在調查局的大概就新增四億九千多萬元。這麼高的一筆錢給你們，你們還是要說清楚怎麼用、細節上怎麼用。我們還是要知道啦！因為這不是小數目，所以細項還是要給我們，讓我們清楚。我甚至很在意一點，就是你們調取到的資料是由誰監控、由誰保存，這個機制有沒有做好？其實已經上路幾個月，機制都還沒有出來，又花了國家那麼多錢，這也不太對。所以這部分麻煩你們要能夠給我們比較詳細的資料。"],["陳局長白立：報告委員，整個大的計畫是編在內政部警政署，有關網路流量的後端分析是包含在這個大的計畫裡面。因為整個設備還沒有完全建置起來，所以目前都沒有，只能說在法規上，未來都必須有令狀才能夠執行。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這樣我知道就好。","最後跟你們提一下，我有幾件事情要麻煩你們回復啦！大概就是針對我剛剛提到的內稽內控等整個配套措施、調取比例、內部審核准駁的數據，希望提供給我。還有，調取成功之後，起訴跟定罪的案例──如果有的話，還沒有沒關係，但如果已經有案例的話，那麻煩把例子提供給我們，讓我稍微了解一下偵查手段與比例原則的關係。為什麼我會這樣要求？是因為我們看了之前根據反滲透法抓了一堆人，結果後來起訴的比例並沒有很高啊！有很多後來是簽結或不起訴嘛！所以我們也要看一下一項法規推出或一項行政行為出來之後，對人民的侵害在比例原則上有沒有問題。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我要了解一下這麼做調了多少人以及後來的起訴與定罪率到底如何，我希望知道這個。","再麻煩一下，關於我剛剛講到的內控機制，你們也要參考一下德國、日本跟美國的作法，有時候他們引入外部監控機制，這時候人民比較能夠信任。再來就是針對我剛剛提到的網路流量分析系統還有通譯監察設備費的預算細目，希望能夠在1個月內給我就好。"],["陳局長白立：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有要求很快，就是1個月內把這些資料給我。"],["陳局長白立：好，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：剛才提到高雄高分檢的那項資料，也要麻煩你們給我，我拿到之後也才能夠跟家屬解釋到底是怎麼回事。我需要主席裁示一下，要在1個月內。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員。對於吳宗憲委員所提出的相關問題，請法務部或調查局在1個月之內提出具體、詳細的書面說明。"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["主席：是書面答復啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝部長、謝謝總長、局長還有老師。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員會跟本會。翁曉玲委員質詢時所要求的書面內容一併列入公報紀錄，並請機關答復。","委員林思銘、楊瓊瓔所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面回復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-20","speakers":["吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","沈發惠","吳思瑤","羅智強","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","洪孟楷","葉元之","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2024-12-19"],"gazette_id":"1140905","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1140905_00003","1140905_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分；二、審查114年度中央政府\n總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分；三、\n審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支\n部分；四、審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪\n被害人保護協會114年度預算書案；五、併案審查(一)委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「外役監條例第四\n條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員王世堅等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條及第二十一條條文修正草\n案」案、(三)委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「外役監條例第四條條文修正草案」案；六、繼續審查114\n年度中央政府總預算案關於立法院主管收支部分【第一案至第四案僅進行詢答】","agenda_id":"1140905_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}