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2,"end":2004.946,"text":"任何一個提案的委員或是黨團的法案都盡可能的求取討論的周延以及品質並按討論就是最能夠提升議事效能以及正面的強化問政品質的方式只是很可惜在週一的委員會上那民主進步黨一直希望能夠透過協調那請國民黨團的召委吳宗憲委員可以讓"},{"start":2010.427,"end":2029.363,"text":"各個法案,不是只有民進黨的黨團法案希望被併案,包括今天的呂玉玲委員有兩案,鄭天才委員有一案,汪小玲委員有一案,總共五案,如果能夠在週一就能夠併案審查,就不會有剛剛林思明委員所說的是不是要重複再討論一次的這種異議。"},{"start":2032.466,"end":2054.935,"text":"所以剛剛林思明委員的發言正是足以說明週一的處置是不周延的是欠缺妥善思量的所以剛剛您的發言正驗證了週一民主進步黨要求並案審查的合理性跟正當性好那回過頭來週一的委員會的審查讓大家覺得非常的遺憾因為主條不審查"},{"start":2056.696,"end":2071.242,"text":"主條不討論。國會改革就在國人面前提出了一個最差的負面示範。週一的會議沒有辦法重來,但是週四今天的會議絕對不能重蹈覆轍。"},{"start":2072.922,"end":2079.706,"text":"剛剛林委員說如果今天再重新討論一次然後是針對民進黨的版本逐條來討論是不是會浪費時間呢?跟大家報告在立法院透過委員會的討論每一個條文的精神、緣由有沒有合憲有沒有合規透過充分的討論呈現在國人面前也加"},{"start":2092.794,"end":2118.517,"text":"也有會與各黨派委員來交換意見這絕對不是浪費時間這是完全要基於立法院的國會監督履行我們的職責花再多時間逐條討論都有必要更何況我們在討論的是國會改革的議案我們要強化國會的監督很重要的一件事情不管在法理上或實務上那個叫做委員會中心主義"},{"start":2119.378,"end":2147.716,"text":"什麼是委員會中心主義?就是每一個關涉的法案它被分派到立法院最專業最資深的該委員會審議的時候透過委員會審查的期程能夠充分被討論最終的協商必須要尊重委員會討論的結果盡可能去尊重這就是尊崇委員會的中心主義讓委員會的討論被正視、被重視而且被"},{"start":2148.997,"end":2167.058,"text":"經過更多嚴格的檢視所以當我們在討論國會改革姿勢體大這麼嚴肅的課題我們更不能去逾越跟踐踏了所謂委員會中心主義這個重要的原則跟精神所以很抱歉我萬萬不能同意剛剛林思敏委員的提案"},{"start":2167.739,"end":2170.684,"text":"今天在這裡逐條審查民主進步黨的版本每一條都經得起檢驗每一條都歡迎公民社會一起來提供更寶貴的意見這絕對不會浪費時間萬萬不能再重蹈覆轍讓週一"},{"start":2183.843,"end":2203.608,"text":"只逐條不審查直接送交協商那這樣透明公開在哪裡呢那這樣委員中心委會中心主義又蕩然無存所以我沒有辦法同意剛剛林思明委員的提案我非常尊重林思明委員齁那這個東西就程序論程序逐條就要討論逐條就要審查謝謝"},{"start":2206.974,"end":2219.292,"text":"好謝謝請問對於今天會議的進行程序有沒有其他首先要發言的好我們當第一次發言的好柯委員就是目前有臨呃我們是會議程序程序發言程序發言啊要還謝謝來請"},{"start":2222.928,"end":2241.526,"text":"因為剛剛有林委員思明表達認為本次的今天的審查會認為有重複然後希望是直接到朝野協商的時候進行討論那我要說明的是剛剛前段林思明委員說的的確在本次委員會審查的法案在委員會審查的法案"},{"start":2242.066,"end":2269.524,"text":"可以到院會的時候以操作的方式進行二讀,那同時並之前送委員會出委員會的法案進行協商。那這樣是否比較符合我們本院審查的原則?是否符合社會需要這樣的法案被討論的這樣的需求?我想我們尊重每個委員的發言,現在由柯委員請說明。主席,各位委員同仁,討論的這個會議是"},{"start":2272.335,"end":2296.352,"text":"在禮拜一怎麼的過程?難道透過直播大家不清楚嗎?然後難道在座各位委員當禮拜一所有的諾說諾說主條登記發言只允許少許時間的大體討論?那而且國民黨提案委員民進黨提案委員也不提案說明"},{"start":2299.444,"end":2303.919,"text":"這一幕大家可以看到出來這是國會史上最暴力的一刻"},{"start":2306.89,"end":2328.065,"text":"大家都知道國內的改革是在這個會議中中之中每一個人都這樣講這過程是怎麼樣難道大家心裡不清楚嗎那你今天要什麼邏輯來講說我們的提案新的提案進來那天我一直在講說歐小英委員的也有提案今天還能把他併進來"},{"start":2330.627,"end":2352.699,"text":"羅志祥委員提案,我們雖然還沒過夫期,可要併進來。我一直在講說,所有案子併在一起的時候,有差一天嗎?結果強勢連夜而過。這樣也是得到什麼?有終極都會贏嗎?難道他們人民的眼睛都瞎了嗎?國會改革大家都知道,"},{"start":2354.256,"end":2371.211,"text":"這有歷史緣由的從1993年遭到1999年才有國會無法產生然後不斷修但是2004的時候出現一個五八五四制國會調查權那國會調查權是當初大家都覺得很複雜"},{"start":2372.711,"end":2392.081,"text":"那我們在2016的時候也有提案但是留下最大爭點沒有過的就是國會調查權今天走了20年了其他不是沒有修的其他黨怎麼會沒有修啊直播啊、日安組織法、日安組織法、院長政治政黨、議事處理等等都有修啊"},{"start":2393.141,"end":2407.515,"text":"所以大家今天在大家重走一次的時候來到這個現場,難道今天主席是還要聽聽於副分局嗎?各位你可以聽聽副分局下大家進言,若舉手。"},{"start":2411.775,"end":2435.779,"text":"有可能讓這個情形再次發生嗎?我們盡量展現的就是說我們有好好的委員委員會的注意,大家好好來審查法案。那今天得到的是什麼?你完全是背贏大家論壽獎的嘛。況且今天民進黨黨版《立法院職權行使法》總共修24條,剩下一章兩個節。文法只有12條啊。"},{"start":2439.608,"end":2463.648,"text":"回來環境重複呢?這將來當然都是要病院審查的還有很多版本都是要病院審查那未來程序是怎麼樣的?柴油箱程序怎樣?菸味表決程序怎樣?沒有談好所有版本都要表決了這樣夠了嗎?當然沒有柴油箱都要談好所有二、三個版本都要一一處理啊那審查報告要怎麼處理?"},{"start":2466.337,"end":2479.046,"text":"所以這個立法是一個嚴肅的過程,不是大家認為想當然好了,運動所都會把他弄過去就好了,那因為這也不能很花言,然後就要講出表決。"},{"start":2480.852,"end":2500.181,"text":"這不發生嚴重的衝突。我們盡量克制在委員會最新委員中心處理,那天大家看到,我們全部不跟你們吵架,只是希望有幾個發言的機會。過去,目前委員還有民進黨委員,過去民進黨占營處理台,民進黨打強行處理委員會,那是國民黨占營處理台沒有辦法好談的時候才會發生。"},{"start":2505.504,"end":2526.597,"text":"我希望在他們好好談的時候,竟然有發生這樣的那種暴力。我不知道黃文昌委員在哪裡,他也是相當有正義感的人,應該也清楚啦。我們今天難道今天可以說完全有OMG版本不一樣的,也不可以審除除進入二讀。你二讀的事是說,不要在那邊討論。啊你不要換人,換人會漏氣。"},{"start":2530.459,"end":2537.504,"text":"那就蓋起來全部出去,這是我們要的國會嗎?這是新的國會嗎?大家喪失。謝謝。來,那麼請林委員、施民第二度的做程序的發言。"},{"start":2552.353,"end":2570.964,"text":"主席我想我非常尊重我們科總召或者護士要委員的發言我想這是一個程序的問題我從兩個面向來講說我們今天在排這個案子而且是由不同的召委來就同一個案子來排那這樣在過去立法院有這樣子的一個慣例嗎"},{"start":2572.685,"end":2595.297,"text":"那麼我想我們立法院我們過去一直強調為提高我們的意識效率我們對性質相同的法案我們得為並按審查另外我們為求審查秩序的安定性同意條文如今審查會一決後就不再討論這不就是我們民進黨一貫主張的意識效率一事不惡意嗎?"},{"start":2596.337,"end":2610.907,"text":"而且依據立法院職權行使法第十二條第二項當年的立法說明二為提高議事效率賦予委員會程序處理之全責同法第三項當年立法說明三"},{"start":2611.667,"end":2629.616,"text":"也說明避免對委員會已審查通過的條文因新案再併入審查而產生處理上之困難新案之提出如昔對已通過之條文而為容易造成借題新案之方法作為推翻舊案之手段"},{"start":2630.456,"end":2650.817,"text":"所以我們看到這一次民進黨的版雖不及並案審查但是這是同屬性質相同的法律提案卻捨棄議事的成立故意不致委員會抽出禁負二讀與相關提案並案協商反禁制排審"},{"start":2652.638,"end":2672.171,"text":"這讓人感覺是鬧雙胞啦所以我們認為說這樣企圖以不同的審查結果來製造紛爭、拖延意識、垂債改革、招攬弱竭啦以上好是那個柯委員來請柯熊德來 魏委員"},{"start":2675.789,"end":2700.77,"text":"主席各位同仁我再一次要回應我不同意國民黨委員要求今天不審查直接交協商的提案我們週一在司法法制委員會鬧出來的鬧劇週四絕對不能再重蹈覆轍已經有一次的程序不正義絕對不能再重蹈覆轍今天的主席是中嘉賓委員資深專業"},{"start":2702.972,"end":2730.321,"text":"那她也歷任多個委員會的召委相信召委會在主持意識上做出清楚的決斷但是我要回應林思敏委員林委員我跟您報告一下您剛剛的說法是有誤的民主進奔黨今天提出來的職權行使法總共有24個條文不是每一條都跟國民黨的版本條次相仿可以直接併案交付協商在程序上它就不可行"},{"start":2731.101,"end":2733.663,"text":"因為我們的24個條文裡面有12個條文是我們在週一快轉之下國民黨跟民眾黨的版本裡面沒有重疊的條文所以是有一半民主進步黨的條文裡面有12條是跟國民黨民眾黨並沒有重疊的條文他必須循程序在委員會裡面逐條被討論逐條被實質的審議這是第一個"},{"start":2759.119,"end":2772.802,"text":"而且這個12條文裏面我們還新增了兩個章節名所以連章節整個職權行使法的章節的排序這個法律秩序又大不相同這當然需要重新再來審議第二個我要再次強調審查國會改革姿勢體大"},{"start":2779.904,"end":2800.318,"text":"沒有任何一個法案不管是立委不管是黨團不管是藍的不管是綠的不管是白的不應當有任何一個法案被丟包我們今天在做補救就是讓被丟包的法案今天能夠循程序或強調今天不是只審民進黨團的版本還有國民黨呂玉玲委員兩個版還有"},{"start":2805.582,"end":2817.534,"text":"關小林委員一個版所以我們希望每一個版本都有被充分檢視、多元、對話、理性、辯論的機會所以沒有任何一個法案應當被丟包更不應當被鬧雙包"},{"start":2822.799,"end":2839.461,"text":"我要挑戰剛剛林思敏委員的發言他說今天如果再排民進黨的職權行使法就是讓法案的審查鬧雙包沒這件事本質上條文就不同內涵就不同違憲跟合憲這是大大的本質的不同所以我們不能夠"},{"start":2841.485,"end":2866.18,"text":"接受今天排案審查就是鬧雙包對不起這是被鬧雙包從來沒有鬧雙包這件事情所以國會改革沒有任何一個委員或黨團的提案應當被丟包也不會發生鬧雙包的事情今天透過程序我們落實委員會中心主義我們相信司法法制委員會的委員們都是充分準備"},{"start":2867.381,"end":2888.65,"text":"可以理性對話在這個前提之下本席堅持我是作為民主進步黨國會改革小組的召集人我們歷經了七次的專家學者的擴大會議我們歷經無數次的立委徹夜的研議我們負責任的提出合憲合規我們負責任的提出權責相符的國會改革版本它應當被審查而我要說"},{"start":2897.293,"end":2913.465,"text":"大家不都一直在強調這是一個開放的國會嗎?討論議案、逐條也讓線上的公民朋友一起來參與一起來聆聽一起來檢視一起來給國會改革最大的鞭策"},{"start":2914.065,"end":2916.808,"text":"不要害怕逐條討論不要害怕國民黨的版本經不起跟民進黨版本兩相對照會原形畢露國民黨團的委員對自己的版本要有信心不要害怕我們就逐條討論"},{"start":2930.385,"end":2958.8,"text":"而且這是基於議事規則,符合程序正義。十二條的條文是跟國民黨你們審過的版本完全不一致,它必須重行在新案新討論。謝謝來我先說明一下我們立法院職權行使法第十二條請大家現在可以詳讀主席在做說明"},{"start":2960.712,"end":2980.412,"text":"議案於完成二讀前,原提案者得經院會同意後撤回原案,表達委員會的審查在院會進行二讀處理前,它都是一個院會交付審查處理的過程,所以在這個院會沒有做出最後決定之前,可以把它撤回。"},{"start":2981.072,"end":3008.507,"text":"第二項法律案交付審查後性質相同者得為併案審查當院會一讀將法律案交付委員會審查後委員會得就性質相同者併案審查這也是第十二條第二項職權行使法第十二條好那目前在前天星期一的會議當中民進黨團希望"},{"start":3009.875,"end":3038.254,"text":"國民黨輪值召委擔任主席時能將已經由院會已經進行一讀但是在交付審查過程中還留待復議為走完復議期的案子能夠等候包括國民黨的呂玉玲委員還有鄭天才委員以及翁曉琳委員也都有提出同一個立法院職權行使法的修正條文修正案"},{"start":3038.973,"end":3063.627,"text":"都在院會已完成一讀尚未到達委員會交互審查還在等候復議的時候我們希望這些性質相同的得為併案審查請注意是得為併案審查委員會可以併在一起審也可以不併在一起審那比較遺憾的週一的輪值召委擔任主席的吳委員吳主席他不願意將"},{"start":3065.228,"end":3090.067,"text":"已經由院會交付,尚未完成賦予日期交到委員會的案子等候進行並案審查。」這裡面一共有五個案子。那因此呢,在這種情況之下本席作為輪值召委負責今天的議程當然可以排案再審。我們沒有重複審查。今天的五個案都不是週一審查的案子。這些案子沒有審查過。"},{"start":3091.929,"end":3110.587,"text":"請看第三項法律案附委經逐條討論後,院會再為併案審查交付時,審查會對於已通過之條文不再討論。那現在我們就要來確認一點了。週一的委員會我們是審查完略。"},{"start":3112.213,"end":3135.745,"text":"但保留,表示委員會並沒有作成通過與否的決議,只是審查完略。對條文的內容,委員會沒有作出可否的意思表達。所以在這裡面,週一的程序是完成審訊,但條文在委員會未經表決通過。"},{"start":3137.066,"end":3152.388,"text":"所以在院會二讀的時候,的確可以就還留在本委員會進行審查的相同性質的議案,進行抽出淨富二讀。"},{"start":3153.67,"end":3171.336,"text":"因為我們週一我們審查完畢提回院會當然提回院會之前還有一個草野協商的案子並沒有通過的條文所以要抽出來在併案進行協商誠如林委員所說的草野可以在協商的時候將現在"},{"start":3173.317,"end":3190.741,"text":"在本委員會同性質的法案就是立法院職權行使法跟週一已經審查完畢要送交院會的條文用二讀會前抽出的方式由院會來進行併案所以我們並沒有發生後半段"},{"start":3191.721,"end":3217.4,"text":"審查會就對已通過之條文不再討論。並沒有。那我要強調的今天的五個案當中有些的條文跟週一的有相近有些的完全不在週一的草案當中所以主席這邊要說明本次的委員會是將目前已達復席限期滿院會交付本委員會的五個提案並按審查"},{"start":3219.502,"end":3226.891,"text":"這並沒有重複跟新期的案子重複審查的問題。在此說明。接下來我們﹖好來委員他請。"},{"start":3231.926,"end":3256.864,"text":"主席好,我現在就程序發言其實我認為現在最重要的癥結也就在剛才主席你所說的就是因為同樣一個案子禮拜一我們的吳宗憲召委已經排案審查我們的國會的立法院職權行使法了"},{"start":3257.324,"end":3285.516,"text":"那你今天在同樣排這樣子的案子就會有像吳思瑤委員貴黨的吳思瑤委員所提出的國民黨的版本絕對不是怕你來比不是你們民進黨的版本就比較好而是同樣一個法案不同的召委處理的時候就會有不同的意見嘛你現在就要抽出嘛你現在就要抽出來再做嘛"},{"start":3285.976,"end":3306.91,"text":"那為什麼過去會有慣例就是同樣一個法案由同一個召委來排呢?就是希望整個法案的處理過程當中有一慣性嘛那你就在禮拜三要排貴黨的那你為什麼不等到下一次你們的案子來了吳宗憲再繼續排呢?為什麼不這樣子呢?為什麼你們不這樣子呢?"},{"start":3313.648,"end":3337.873,"text":"我先跟委員說明因為你非本會委員你提出的是會議詢問我不是程序發言所以本席對這個部分跟你做回答兩個部分那個司法法制委員會每個委員會有自己的一個慣例司法法制委員會並沒有限制委員就哪個法案的排審專一權第二剛剛所說的剛剛也包括林委員所說的"},{"start":3340.103,"end":3363.11,"text":"所說的一事不在意的確我們立法院職權行使法第十二條第三項他有限制院會在為並案審查的時候審查會不得對已通過的條文進行討論這就是一事不在意委員會在接受院會再次交付並案審查的同時對於委員會之前已經審查過通過的條文是不得再行討論的"},{"start":3364.41,"end":3380.225,"text":"這的確是有避免重複審議的問題也不會有後面跟前面翻案的問題所以條文上是很清楚問題是現在我們進行的並不是院會再為併案審查之再交付不是"},{"start":3382.143,"end":3406.523,"text":"現在我們在星期一的時候送到院會之前還有經過一個草野協商的程序這也是國民黨要求副總召要求他希望送出委員會進入草野協商但是我要說明的進入草野協商在院會做出第三項在為病案審查之交付之前我們委員會仍得就"},{"start":3407.103,"end":3420.131,"text":"已經交付的案子跟週一不同的法案進行排審。以上說明希望謝委員瞭解。請問文本會員還有柯委員要進行程序發言嗎?請時間兩分鐘。主席、各位委員。剛才國民黨的委員所發言的不管孫一鴻、林世民等發言都在自證其罪。"},{"start":3437.315,"end":3459.223,"text":"各位要了解立法院的議事規則很清楚同一性質相同的就是說我們都很清楚第一個立法委員提案的時候往往有先後次序的落差因為行政院先公告以後立法院就來把這個行政預公告法案就來稍微調整以後送進來"},{"start":3461.84,"end":3490.148,"text":"而又行政進來以後有來不及趕快又稍微調整又送進來所以常常有很多的落差這為什麼?因為公眾門在檢查各位提案數而已這是不可說的秘密那通常碰到這個情形,大家有時候會互相稍微斷解要查詢,查詢人家出去,到最後在院會叫做病人審查,就是如此"},{"start":3492.096,"end":3492.618,"text":"那所謂議事規則的規定"},{"start":3494.85,"end":3523.869,"text":"相同的不要再審,沒有問題。差一點有一半以上啊,本來就再審啊。法案審查什麼時候,說我一個前面的書記,後面的不能再來。修正條文不同,有不同案子啊。雖然案名長得一樣,但修正條文不同,當然可以審啊。這道理自明嘛。而且因為委員你也在司法及法制委員會。司法及法制委員會從來沒有說法案、排案的專屬性的問題。他常常接續排案嘛。"},{"start":3525.072,"end":3525.333,"text":"這個哪一個法?"},{"start":3527.731,"end":3556.873,"text":"然而這些修法或是立法院所謂法案法律條文裏面兩次就有寫出什麼時候有規定,還要你讓我先掛號,以後大家都不會再動了。這種不可能的事情,這是不合常態,而且不會發生的。所以大家要了解立法院運作是一個非常成熟的機制,這麼多年來該改的都改了。但是呢,我希望就是說,你們自己要冷靜想一想。"},{"start":3557.894,"end":3585.686,"text":"當然很簡單我的解讀很簡單就是你要強行通過然後在委員會禁止發言嘛那你自己的提案也不說明嘛一路演壓你也要過去嘛都讓外界看不到聲音嘛然後說出委員會那一路蓋牌嘛蔡偉鄉的時候你們出席就說都反對反對嘛然後在A11表決A11表決你又想要你國會都是為什麼禁止民進黨發言"},{"start":3587.447,"end":3610.428,"text":"這個東西一路蓋牌到底啊,這天下在做荒謬的過失啊。啊你自己講的楊某很清楚啊,在五年以前要通過嘛,要找那個親和來,讓總統來做國情報告,要急問急答嘛,還要書面報告啊。這可得嗎?這違憲了嘛。你們這次在建政中途嘛。"},{"start":3613.168,"end":3642.286,"text":"五二年以後,新的行政院長兩月份來愛博,做時政報啊。時政報,時政報三天前來,你又有總統來背刑,又有行政院長背刑,這是我們憲法體制嗎?我們憲法體制根本不是這一套嘛。總統是明顯的啊。那憲法體制當然就是說,總統行政院,有七條規定很清楚啊。憲法有七條規定很清楚啊。行政院是國家重要的行政機關。"},{"start":3646.147,"end":3657.283,"text":"那先往上來規定六、三條規定六案可以議決的東西那意義上法律案、條案等等嘛先往上說給你們潛力就是如此嘛"},{"start":3658.154,"end":3681.565,"text":"那代表香港第四條規定很清楚啊總統得來嘛做國情報告啦但是沒有急問急答到底是要問總統還是問行政院長 想得準那總統還可以提他 提市民答覆有這樣的憲政體制嗎 你們想一想那總之不會衝不會走嘛事先上也不會過嘛"},{"start":3683.56,"end":3708.114,"text":"大家很清楚,這整個憲法的規定很清楚。你對於行政院首屬的政策法,你還可以提服役啊。啊不然接下來就是什麼?你提不喜歡倒閣嗎?沒有所謂的官員不可以反諮詢,這些東西等一下我們大家要談。所以各位這種荒謬的一刻,你怕再演出來嗎?但是你今天你和組黨、民進黨不討論嗎?"},{"start":3712.493,"end":3729.202,"text":"而你們副總召就趕快叫來壓政吧所以各位歷史在看到你們所有過過的過程大家都會檢視的因為反正在法案審查有這樣的出道過嗎所以很絶大衝突才沒有辦法審就到柴油廠去再談"},{"start":3730.783,"end":3758.803,"text":"我們一直展現的要用論述好好跟你談,你不要以為我們完全都是蜿蜒相欠,都是遷移原則,那你們做完那一排完全不講話,國安委員他自己在國會已經很清楚了,他也當過國會議員,你們這邊有都當過了,那羅志強你自己的版本被背包你有沒有意見,這個都是很奇怪的現象。"},{"start":3759.93,"end":3777.648,"text":"這荒謬,這荒謬而已。那你今天,我們在主管講從那個角度,你只要能夠屬於我們,我們可以接受。是吧?好,謝謝。那麼主席在這裡,也是陳先生請,來。"},{"start":3784.54,"end":3809.285,"text":"今天我是非常滿懷感動來到這邊來去看我們今天的審議我先回應我們偉大的柯總召柯總說我的法案被丟包我跟各位說我的法案沒有被丟包我的法案就是2016年一字不插板的民進黨的國會改革法案"},{"start":3810.843,"end":3827.181,"text":"問題是2016年的那個案子被丟包了八年啊!被當啊!在座的一堆都連訴啊!哦不對!這是民進黨黨團版是所有民進黨立委一起代表提出的"},{"start":3828.369,"end":3855.986,"text":"丟包啦丟了八年今天快馬加鞭對不對又要什麼排審然後又要這個禮拜一我們已經要送到這個草野協商的國會改革法案你要今天要再來搞一次我跟各位說我覺得我很感動原因是什麼因為今天就展現了今天在野黨不管是國民黨跟民眾黨我們展現什麼叫民主給你們看啊"},{"start":3857.406,"end":3879.456,"text":"今天我跟各位說啦我們的主席啊我們這邊在講議事規則啊我講得好感動啊議事規則終於重要了啦你的解讀正不正確再說啦但是我只是永遠忘不了過去八年民進黨動輒開會五分鐘停止討論直接碾壓在野黨馬上就表決啦有理你在野黨嗎?"},{"start":3886.055,"end":3889.416,"text":"有離你在野黨嗎?昨天禮拜一六個小時民進黨要程序發言讓你程序發言要會議詢問讓你會議詢問要大體討論讓你大體討論搞了六個小時搞了四十次三會動議欸你想杯葛想要怎麼搞四十次三會動議就繼續搞啊那我要講什麼?"},{"start":3916.562,"end":3943.907,"text":"不就是讓你們繼續討論嗎?這叫什麼?這叫做過去的在野黨沒有辦法得到待遇啦!今天在這邊很簡單民進黨如果你真的這麼在乎國會改革你不要自己落隊說人家丟包你2016年好好省八年時間都過了啦!八年不好好搞今天搶這一天"},{"start":3945.685,"end":3967.775,"text":"獎這一天然後再回應我們的柯總召上來又開始急問急答毀憲亂政啦!柯總召今天我是誰你知道嗎?我今天叫柯建民我今天不叫羅志強2016年你就主張你就主張的是什麼?你就主張的就是主張的國情報告急問急答欸!不用!柯總召"},{"start":3972.111,"end":3975.373,"text":"二、委員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":3989.226,"end":3990.466,"text":"三、委員呂玲等16人擬具"},{"start":4016.914,"end":4041.607,"text":"我先說明一下那個週一的會議進行並沒有癱瘓議事也沒有佔領主席台所以還是由當時的輪值召委我們吳宗憲主席所進行的一個議事的程序這跟剛剛柯委員所說的有所不同那接下來我們要請正牌的柯委員要發言"},{"start":4048.373,"end":4070.914,"text":"好,周一有點氣氛可以好好談了我是很期待這一刻因為如果有顏碧春、柯建民那我不需要你來追隨我啦但是你可以整天盯著我,我沒有意見有一句話叫做東施孝平"},{"start":4072.403,"end":4100.372,"text":"有一句話叫做十人雅會。我不知道這個中文這麼簡單,中文喔讓胡文綺那邊一直笑,跟黃國昌兩個在旁,胡文綺那邊笑。我希望你這八個字,什麼叫中式笑評?什麼叫十人雅會?既然至於十人雅會,今天在以大家的講說,我都抄個女生文版本,你沒有完全抄,你有很多其他的創建出來啦,你的版本不是只有一個人,我們大家都很清楚嘛。"},{"start":4101.704,"end":4115.571,"text":"我們怎麼都要審法呢所以今天要講說2016你要就是要實現我們理想2016十五到八年都沒有做請問那八年中間你以為沒有民進黨委員嗎沒有民進黨委員嗎"},{"start":4120.475,"end":4148.846,"text":"沒有台人嗎?國民黨一直存在啊!國民黨今天才從地球上冒出來的嗎?才在國會的嗎?這是在共同的責任、在共同的問題嘛!你們有沒有在提出來?你們有沒有說用這個邏輯來打的話,也是自證體罪啊!那給老闆而已嘛!你不要講什麼邏輯嘛!國會改革是民進黨的責任!國會改革是所有立法院的責任!"},{"start":4150.438,"end":4175.503,"text":"我從1963年進來之後,現在是全民國會改革,國會違法,1991年是我們都曾經講過,中國農會不能修法。這是大家共同的問題,大家要是一個比較好的國會嘛。你今天講這個以後,我無問題的常常這樣講。你民進黨不說我們來做,那你國民黨給錢不就是要理會它嗎?你國民黨今天要怎麼整個地方掌權啊?這是什麼邏輯嘛?"},{"start":4177.222,"end":4191.738,"text":"這是一個貿易共識,我們不想用國內貿易報告的道理,所以保留五八五四線那一條最關鍵條文,其他可以修,我們盡量修。那五八五四線到底應該,這個案真的還錢,那其他的失法權的界限在什麼地方?"},{"start":4192.864,"end":4196.747,"text":"二、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法第十五條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":4221.96,"end":4225.582,"text":"二、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文"},{"start":4252.745,"end":4269.67,"text":"章義忠章義忠就是如此嘛當年三一八二十二允許三一八前一天章義忠的時候章義忠就是進來蹲在牆底牆底牆角下自己喊說要通過這才會衝突嘛"},{"start":4271.581,"end":4297.753,"text":"只是沒有辦法有,而是一時之需的時候,根本那媒體會擠在一起,國民黨在佔領之下拿大聲大聲的進來,這時候才有可能有,我們那時候所謂所謂才有可能,但是當然也要依程序來處理,要很完整的,包括歐洲交流的時候,當然,上一屆舉動與歐洲交流的時候,程序不完整,從來,我們都認得啦,所以立法院的意思規則是很清楚透明的,"},{"start":4298.77,"end":4300.913,"text":"兩、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":4315.14,"end":4333.044,"text":"這什麼話啦!這還說立法院有七個案件有那麼多題材,啊你還問?你都根本不給!全部都說!講什麼好話!我希望今天這樣的討論,可以來,大家好好來辯論。吼,你不曉得要不要搬給我?你搬給你自己好了!"},{"start":4334.831,"end":4355.139,"text":"那麼本席依立法院議事規則與委員發言前先宣告發言時間每位委員發言時間兩分鐘這是指程序發言那麼請需要發言的委員在莊委員之後呢請先到主席台前發言登記那主席會盡量的讓首次發言的委員先發言來請莊委員時間兩分鐘"},{"start":4364.28,"end":4364.46,"text":"主席"},{"start":4376.889,"end":4400.766,"text":"不分黨派我相信很多人每一個早上都跑幾個委員會第一件事情那麼早去非本會要幹什麼就是要去做提案說明我早上第一個就跑到教文去做提案的一個說明大家再來做一個回顧這一次的攻防裡面我們我在上一次我們吳政院主席在主持這個會議的議事的時候我就提出來了"},{"start":4401.627,"end":4424.562,"text":"你這查一天你不寵,你不愛紅,你不愛淡,你就會碰到這樣的一個爭議。剛剛羅委員所提到的,說你現在扮演是柯建民的角色,這是換起來好像民進黨的一個黨魂,讓大家有所記憶。第八屆我就進來了。第八屆當初啊,林佳龍有一個提案,到了第九屆,我跟顧立雄我們也有共同提案。"},{"start":4425.478,"end":4437.563,"text":"民進黨不是反對國會調查權,我們自己就有版本。當初林德福還到我旁邊,敢要這樣做,要擴權耶。你去看你們當初的政策會執行長賴思寶怎麼講,他就是擴權,我們不用說那麼多,你沒那麼大。如果要這樣計較的話,每一個政黨把過去所講的過的話,拿出來做一個檢驗的話,那好玩喔。政黨之間的一個攻防還是要講一點點道理啦。各位再把它去想一想啦。"},{"start":4455.75,"end":4471.542,"text":"國會改革我相信大家今天坐在這個地方你今天去把它看我們周秘書長他所提出的報告這三頁裡面他其實是在講四個字叫做國會自主啊就是說國會啊立法院大大到那個內部大到有夠大有夠大到都不清的你知道嗎"},{"start":4473.183,"end":4490.145,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":4491.069,"end":4508.202,"text":"那這句話就送給你們國民黨當初的講法那本席要特別提出來就是說今天吶我們在院會交互拼案以前吶草野協商都還沒啊所以你真正要去講一事不在理的話仔細再去想一想吶大家都當到立法委員吶這哪是一事不在理的問題呢底下多少誰學法的那你再去把它想想看我們通過的法案我們吳主席在主持這個議事的時候你創了一個先例啊"},{"start":4520.712,"end":4539.674,"text":"提案不用做說明阿不用做主導討論阿你就把人家給送協商阿任何一個人當召委你要裁決送你要做保留保留是意見不一樣我們每一次都討論完了意見不一致說好保留送協商"},{"start":4540.831,"end":4558.558,"text":"我們在講的保留是在講這個的,你的保留跟別人都不一樣,都不要提案說明,都不用逐條討論,全部都是保留送協商。以後在司法法制委員會我們討論任何案子全部都不用討論啦,也不用提案說明啦,可以這樣子幹的喔?"},{"start":4561.206,"end":4584.603,"text":"國會調查權是立法委員很大國會自主愛怎麼通過就怎麼通過但重點不要忘記了這個課題到底你要限制到誰你那個範圍你那個限制甚至於你那個強制的一個手段你到底要用到什麼樣的一個程度要用到刑法要用到行政法這個都不用討論了"},{"start":4588.41,"end":4592.512,"text":"民進黨你說你們過去全部連要過去你說那一天什麼花了六個小時啊這也亂講議事本來就是這樣子嘛沒有人霸佔你主席台沒有人讓你不能審下去嘛那個就是正當的議事工房按照議事規則來啊提三位本來就是優先處理啊那你注意把它想想看當天裡面他有什麼六個小時?人家有什麼討論六個小時?"},{"start":4612.023,"end":4612.143,"text":"議員議員提醒議員提醒"},{"start":4638.138,"end":4656.406,"text":"本席在宣告的時候並沒有把時間明確地講,都是給兩分鐘,但實際上都講超過兩分鐘啦。好,那我這邊做更正的宣告,我們發言時間改為三分鐘。然後剛剛莊委員的部分一開始是兩分鐘,後來也多給他一分鐘了,所以都很公平。那所以每位委員發言時間兩分鐘,現在登記發言的委員,"},{"start":4660.838,"end":4668.79,"text":"呃,對不起,登記發言時間是三分鐘那目前登記發言的委員還有羅志強委員、吳思耀委員跟柯建民委員再請羅委員請時間三分鐘"},{"start":4674.773,"end":4703.918,"text":"我今天真的是抱著愉悅的心情來這邊看待今天非常民主進步的一個討論剛剛我們的柯總召說不要東施孝平我跟你講這是犧牲捧心為2016年版本的民進黨犧牲版本感到心痛犧牲捧心不是東施孝平今天民進黨在這邊你會發現我真的是這兩個月很大的學習"},{"start":4705.6,"end":4717.447,"text":"五分鐘停止討論,直接用多數碾壓。」五分鐘停止討論,直接用多數碾壓。五分鐘停止討論,直接用多數碾壓。五分鐘停止討論,直接用多數碾壓。五分鐘停止討論,直接用多數碾壓。五分鐘停止討論,直接用多數碾壓。五分鐘停止討論,直接用多數碾壓。"},{"start":4735.911,"end":4760.836,"text":"因為怎樣怎樣所以我停止討論交付表決就是你國民黨活該倒霉啊不就這個意思?不就這個意思?不就這個意思?然後呢六個小時還有給你扣休息啊扣朗讀啊欸你五分鐘給他扣休息扣朗讀嗎?你直接碾壓別人欸五分鐘碾壓別人沒事"},{"start":4762.284,"end":4778.13,"text":"六小時所有該要發言討論法案搞了六個小時你可以提四十次散會動議啊網路上怎麼稱呼各位前輩先進門啊綠色巨嬰黨輸不起啊輸四十次啊散會動議啊輸四十次啊吳宗憲、張偉在上面主持的時候讓你充分討論搞了六個小時"},{"start":4791.638,"end":4802.787,"text":"你還提兩次譴責啊我都不知道五分鐘你給誰討論啊五分鐘你給誰討論啊你五分鐘給誰討論啊你要比啊黨團協商討論啊保留黨團協商討論啊這不是議事規則裡面的嗎"},{"start":4818.767,"end":4844.919,"text":"這不是一定是規則裡面我新來的啦所以我為2016年的那個死掉的民進黨捧心啦我新來的啦我新來的啦所以為今天審判會委員主持會議五分鐘停止討論表決捧心啊我新來的啦我新來的啦所以我要特別講沒有什麼時空環境改變啦"},{"start":4846.067,"end":4867.543,"text":"什麼急問急答叫做政治攻防難怪人家說民進黨國會改革版本就是幫助貪源說謊版本啦因為你們把這個話可以隨便說政治攻防然後現在時空環境我只看到民進黨的屁股變了啦稀釋捧心了啦好"},{"start":4871.038,"end":4889.156,"text":"我們接下來請吳思瑤委員做程序發言時間三分鐘主席各位同仁現在是立法院的憲法時刻"},{"start":4890.685,"end":4915.427,"text":"國會改革跟憲政體制息息相關在面對憲法之前每一個人都要謙遜面對民意面對人民的托付我們都要虛心我希望今天在場的每一位委員在發言面對嚴肅的國會改革的議題收起戲謔的態度收起你嘲諾的口吻"},{"start":4917.079,"end":4935.468,"text":"我要再說﹐任何一場球賽﹐國球是台灣的﹐棒球是台灣的國球﹐任何一場球賽有它的賽制、賽程的安排﹐但球賽最清楚的就是要依據賽制﹐投手、上場、直球對決。"},{"start":4937.045,"end":4954.302,"text":"打手打擊手可以就位揮棒爭取進攻但是週一國民黨的排審的國會改革的法案就是一場賽制不公的棒球賽因為投手就是國民黨"},{"start":4956.104,"end":4976.39,"text":"你們所提的國會改革版本不敢被審查投手不敢上場投球而民進黨作為防守方在週一的會議上我們爭取打擊者要上場揮棒爭取得分主席不讓打手上場揮棒打擊"},{"start":4977.95,"end":5001.368,"text":"然後主席也就是兼裁判在那裡一直的宣告三正出局三正出局三正出局從第一局到最後一局第九局都在旁邊場邊喊三正出局三正出局沒有投手上場投球也不讓打擊者上場打擊一路到三正出局九局下然後宣告這個藍白隊獲勝藍白隊直接晉級有這種的嗎"},{"start":5007.472,"end":5015.257,"text":"我要再說一次,不要東施笑評,不要食人牙慧,確實如此。現在是2024年,為什麼國民黨的羅志強委員嚴閉稱2016的民主進步黨的國會改革的版本呢?"},{"start":5024.468,"end":5028.592,"text":"不要學已經被社會檢視有違憲之餘的條文正因為民進黨在2016端出來的版本我們經過檢視社會沒有共識而且也對於大法官誓字585號確實有所調查聽證權的漢格所以我們尊重憲法尊重社會的共識我們自治"},{"start":5049.15,"end":5053.495,"text":"沒有因為民主進步黨是國會多數就如同您剛剛說的強行碾壓讓這樣一個違憲之餘的版本通過回到2016年民進黨國會改革的版本的脈絡就是這樣"},{"start":5065.54,"end":5072.927,"text":"好的要學,不要亂學。如果你要學習民主進步黨2016年的版本,你也好好抄,抄對。民主進步黨2016年的版本是沒有國會特徵組。你們今天有國會特徵組還有國會特權組。"},{"start":5086.089,"end":5103.052,"text":"民主進步黨在2016年的版本也沒有藐視國會罪可以入人於罪路人講路人與民間企業今天進店是明天台積電每一個私人企業、人民、民間團體都會被叫來立法院因為國會可以私設行堂"},{"start":5104.235,"end":5119.99,"text":"我們沒有這些離譜違憲的條文。羅志祥委員您真的是新來的。您對於條文完全不懂。您掩蔽了2016年的民主進步黨的版本,您也沒有讀懂,您也沒有讀通,您要抄也抄對。"},{"start":5120.991,"end":5124.474,"text":"但是我要再次說我們對歷史負責2016年的版本經過檢視民進黨負責任的回應社會的共識我們在憲法面前該低頭就低頭該檢討就檢討今天請討論2024年的民主進步黨的版本歷史"},{"start":5139.987,"end":5161.738,"text":"會留下憲法時刻每一個政治工作者每一個國會議員你採取什麼樣的立場你採取什麼樣的態度我再次提醒不要再浪費時間我非常同意林思敏委員剛剛第一句話說的不要浪費時間不要拖延現在就開始逐條我們節省時間謝謝吳委員接下來請陳俊委員發言時間三分鐘"},{"start":5171.82,"end":5196.296,"text":"好謝謝主席那在場各位委員大家好我們都是第11屆的立法委員那從2月1號開議到現在在場也有三位司法法制委員同一個這個法案提過不只一次包括我們吳宗憲召委有五個版本那翁曉琳委員也有四個版本"},{"start":5197.236,"end":5222.475,"text":"復坤啟委員復總召也有三個版本其中也包含今天排定的相關議程法案修正的提出經過委員辦公室內部討論之後委員們一致聯署經過我們院會的一睹到委員會審查討論之後無論是不是有無意義來送交我們院會或是保留送協商"},{"start":5223.436,"end":5247.455,"text":"那修法的這個過程我相信雖然只是一小步啦齁那我們都希望能夠更加完備來成為我國的一個法制那對於國會改革的決心我相信在座各位委員都是有之一同啦齁那可是在禮拜一看來我們整個過程非常的冗長"},{"start":5248.567,"end":5275.485,"text":"那經過這個當時我們吳釗緯主持的會議最後也宣判就是宣讀就是當天的這些法案已經審查完畢可是說真的我從地方的議會這個經歷過在禮拜一的這個整個過程裡面並沒有所謂的這個審查沒有實質的審查也沒有這個提案人的說明沒有經過詳細的討論"},{"start":5278.168,"end":5283.708,"text":"那這個法案到底有沒有算是審查完畢那我也覺得非常的納悶喔"},{"start":5285.407,"end":5311.76,"text":"所以對於這個國會改革的決心我相信我們在座每一位議員都有自己獨到的想法我相信只要大家能夠用心去把這個所送進來的這個法案這個討論審查之後我們一定會有一個最大的共識也會形成是民眾所期待的一個共識我相信"},{"start":5313.742,"end":5320.67,"text":"這個部分可能要我們草野不分黨派有志一同大家一起來思考才能夠達成這個目標以上"},{"start":5335.718,"end":5361.072,"text":"主席各位同仁我要講的大概就是說請大家要考量一下這個憲法憲法它其實不會像某些委員講的它會跟著這個時代然後短時間內就做巨幅的改變所以我們現在的版本國民黨在禮拜一提出來的版本其實跟2016年民進黨的版本還蠻像的有很多條文甚至都是直接"},{"start":5362.472,"end":5372.757,"text":"民進黨當年的版本不錯我們直接引用所以說這個法案會隨著這個時代變更那個是把憲法跟法律搞混了"},{"start":5374.383,"end":5374.503,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":5395.067,"end":5415.957,"text":"會隨著社會脈動然後會常常的修正的那個叫法律或命令那絕對不是憲法兩個等級不一樣就像你不能把打漆彈跟國防比當做同樣的東西一樣這是不能這樣比擬的所以大家要注意一件事情憲法是國家根本大法絕對不可能在短時間內"},{"start":5417.858,"end":5438.09,"text":"因此大幅度的變動所以這個理由我覺得是很奇怪為什麼當年覺得這樣現在覺得這樣這是兩回事第二個就真的是程序的問題我在這邊跟各位解釋一下其實禮拜一的時候各位都有提出兩個譴責案我想麻煩各位我們在這邊做的事情"},{"start":5439.127,"end":5452.756,"text":"依照立法委員行為法我是要如果對我有意見要送紀律委員會不是用譴責當天我為了議事的順利我真的不想要鬧這件事我下來這裡舉手反對我自己的"},{"start":5454.209,"end":5480.37,"text":"的這個譴責案因為這譴責案如果通過之後公告其實對民進黨是傷啊你拿一個錯誤的程序來這裡玩這邊的主席這是不對的甚至有委員在外面說看到我這樣做笑死其實我跟你講這沒有笑死你沒有照程序去譴責主席才會被笑死我在那邊說我們以後不要再犯這個錯如果我們以後誰在那邊做不好我們就送紀律委員會這個就符合立法院的立法委員的行為法"},{"start":5481.01,"end":5507.669,"text":"我們在這裡國家最高的民主殿堂凡事還是必須要依照法律來做好不好不只對我們也是我們對民進黨的委員也不能用譴責案我們還是送紀律委員會如果覺得有問題的話我覺得事情過去就過去了但是我想說之後的程序我們還是比較希望能夠依照法定程序來走不要一笑大方謝謝各位"},{"start":5509.377,"end":5510.298,"text":"在回復吳宗憲委員之前"},{"start":5532.83,"end":5553.44,"text":"如果要再做,若以憲法概念的大家來互相討論一下。剛才吳教委員講得很好,現在是憲法時刻。當然,那我要去司法的時候,那立法院表決的時候,我講過一句話,我們都要向憲法低頭。"},{"start":5554.62,"end":5568.848,"text":"大法院解釋同事合憲可以立專法後來立法院就照這樣的情形來處理當然我主張也是如此所以我們不希望看到黃中匪氣寡婦黏民"},{"start":5570.683,"end":5599.271,"text":"也就是說,憲法是一個核等神聖國家的根本大法。結果羅致雄委員可以自行講一些完全不合憲的言語。所以在這裡要講一句話就是說,到底那一天,羅致雄委員覺得很委屈、被譴責,那也是經過議決的。那到底為什麼要譴責你,難道不清楚嗎?"},{"start":5600.808,"end":5628.055,"text":"有編輯委員壓著你都當然大家都看得很清楚嘛這編輯委員跑了他當然跑了我們要煎好那個過程大家要很清楚嘛是不是你要照程序爭議來完全沒有嘛所以我們給你大於討論這是什麼這憲法之前是羅志祥賞給的啊是你召委賞給的啊而且這打字七零八括"},{"start":5629.622,"end":5648.389,"text":"職權草案不能發案：立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案：立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案：立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案：立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案：立法院職權行使法部分條文"},{"start":5660.249,"end":5660.97,"text":"國內改革經過三十年"},{"start":5676.309,"end":5694.178,"text":"在上次最後的時候也是少於一年多,不過已經結束了。後來才結合有些疑慮的部分,那是我們國內的多數啊。我不敢讓它通過啊。難道那時候沒有官黨委員嗎?那時候沒有實力嗎?"},{"start":5695.816,"end":5719.854,"text":"而至於上個屆沒有民進黨嗎?沒有人在提嗎?那今天大家面對很好,我把我事件的核心價值與意義,就是這個地方而已啊。其他都是該改該修的,這個地方我們要弄清楚。不是可以置意妄為的。所以我今天要講的最後一句,要在今天講的就是說,有一句話就是說,對人有談情啊。"},{"start":5723.424,"end":5737.452,"text":"那事實上是,我們民進黨不要扮演齁,完全那個都研究會閉起來。不管民主、金融講什麼話,不然外面的整個批判,你們都不管這些。"},{"start":5738.959,"end":5763.908,"text":"晚時也應該點頭了然後告訴各位這是一個直播這是先人時刻大家要鼠目看前台灣的鼠目在看這個我常常講說這中中是中很好啊那為什麼他不敢講話所有提案他自己提案不敢說明大家越辯越明才對啦各位國民黨在海委員"},{"start":5766.486,"end":5793.746,"text":"我對你們感到很惋惜啦,會議已經走了,你們可以開始講話才對啊。你一直在看待這一刻,會反撲的,你不要以為這樣你寵,大家讓你寵,然後配合條例,分題一個人提的,配合一算一個人提的兩兆,什麼都沒有關係。我一算東西大法院一事就破功了,你自己起立法,"},{"start":5795.168,"end":5822.405,"text":"所以我們一定要用在合憲信底下那憲法框架原則底下好好審這個法案你會討人的啊但是不是說不管民進黨怎麼講如果想導釋就是說我賞給你們你們過去怎麼樣國會期的情形你知道嗎國會期情形是怎樣國會改革2016審了一年多了通過有通過不少條文啊但是對於國會調查權的部分"},{"start":5824.301,"end":5852.633,"text":"這大概是有所保留我自己也有所保留否則早就通過啦怎麼樣你可以引申到有國會藐視國會稅還要有重要部會首長人事同意權人事同意權只有我申請過兩次大概1997年已經修掉了沒有人事同意權這些都是要修憲的範圍"},{"start":5854.434,"end":5883.135,"text":"你不用憲法的角度,要修憲你用修法來處理,那修法也要修合理,也要在憲法的效果底下來修。今天核心問題是在這裡,希望國民黨委員二分之一能遭遇,你們可以扮演自己了。好,謝謝柯總召。接下來在審發會委員程序發言結束後,本席就要進行處理。好,那請,曾委員。"},{"start":5886.953,"end":5899.587,"text":"另外一位省委員,會議詢問待會,我們先讓這位省委員發言完。不好意思,不太習慣,因為以前都只有一個省委員,現在叫兩個省委員。"},{"start":5903.383,"end":5916.753,"text":"我想我個人一向很不喜歡說在委員會裡面把委員會當作call in節目來這邊玩所以我想我們還是就立法講立法就程序講程序"},{"start":5917.754,"end":5917.774,"text":"案。"},{"start":5948.214,"end":5977.102,"text":"更何況這個主張所以這個拿來這裡批評政黨我是覺得不太公允這是第一點第二點這個我想我們還是要就這個程序我們來談今天這個程序發言就程序來談第一個今天大家爭執的第一點就是禮拜一的那個會議裡面的到底是不是有程序正義當天我們最大的爭執其實都不是你們說不讓人討論什麼這個都是一回事"},{"start":5978.459,"end":5990.704,"text":"對我個人而言我認為最大的問題就是在程序上面有最大的瑕疵就是一個法條在委員會裡面最後是要決定要通過或者是要否決或者是要保留我覺得"},{"start":5992.518,"end":6014.992,"text":"這個都不是主席裁決的權利,主席不能說大家會議裡面決定,大家決定這個條文要通過,結果主席說那我裁決否定或我裁決不要我要保留,不行,這都是委員會大家公決的。所以那天最大的問題就是所有的條文都保留,民進黨每一個條文都提出意見說我們反對保留,這時候怎麼辦呢?這不是主席可以裁決說那我這一條就保留吧。"},{"start":6015.816,"end":6040.038,"text":"你可以說保留到後面討論,你不能說委員會結論就是保留,這個委員會結論如果是保留一定是經過會議議決。吳宗憲,吳宗憲我很尊敬你,但是這個是我那天對那天程序最大的質疑,這是保留不是主席可以裁決,把這一條文保留出去的。所以那一天可以說整個審查,到最後我個人認為這個程序都是有瑕疵,都有瑕疵。"},{"start":6040.697,"end":6065.289,"text":"再來就今天的程序而言大家在談說這個案子審過禮拜一審過了為什麼要重複審查這個有兩個角度剛剛都談過很簡單的我怕這個大家聽不懂我再簡單的整理一下第一個今天有一些條文是當天當是禮拜一沒有的當天今天一樣這個法案名稱一樣但是條文不一樣12條是溢出的條文"},{"start":6066.789,"end":6094.783,"text":"那你說這12條已經審過不能再審嗎?沒有這12條從來沒有審過所以今天當然可以審查這是第一點第二點你按照這個立法院職權行使法第12條第三項他這裡面很清楚的講過所謂不再審的前提條要件是什麼是對於審查會已通過這條文不再審查但是各位那一天在我們主席的裁決之下沒有一條通過通通保留"},{"start":6095.914,"end":6118.823,"text":"所以我們沒有一條是已通過的條文啊我們只有已保留的條文所以當然這不符合當然是可以再審查啊因為沒有任何一條已通過通通是保留再來最後我在這裡也特別跟羅志祥委員抱歉啦剛才在台下這樣子我個人是不喜歡這樣子但是為什麼我會講說新來這個不太不禮貌啦"},{"start":6119.443,"end":6136.25,"text":"但是事實上過去所有的這些議事衝突你再去看一次好好看那個錄影帶看那個議事錄其實所有的程序都有走停止討論一定有人提案停止討論雖然我在主席台被人家包圍拉扯但是一定有人提案說"},{"start":6137.782,"end":6155.594,"text":"提案,而且我針對這個提案還要做處理,我也不能像吳宗憲一樣說啊沒有那就這樣處理不行,我一定要說好我們針對這個提案要停止討論,付諸表決大家贊成不贊成,那贊成,好通過,表決通過。所以所有的這些,那時候為什麼我會再主持一次,其實在前一個"},{"start":6157.12,"end":6179.665,"text":"前一次其實我已經通過過一次了但是就是因為有這種程序不正義就像禮拜一一樣就是這個保留沒有經過會議議決就主席進行保留你沒有經過這個程序之後那個會議的效力我們後來就否定掉重新再來一次所以立法院不管有什麼衝突拉扯多數表決但是一定該走的程序通通要走完他才會算數以上"},{"start":6182.042,"end":6185.47,"text":"好謝謝那剛剛因為沈博洋委員有會議詢問請時間兩分鐘"},{"start":6194.249,"end":6221.107,"text":"好 沈博洋會議詢問 謝謝我應該不需要兩分鐘那麼久那我只是先回應一下今天最主要有這個為什麼我們今天要去討論這個的議題在這個之前我先回應一下吳宗憲委員不過他走出去了就是說第一個就是今天到底那一天為什麼是沒有經過實質的討論然後也沒有經過表決然後就全部保留這的確是一個程序的問題所以當時我們提出要譴責嘛"},{"start":6222.328,"end":6242.26,"text":"吳宗憲、趙偉那時候的主張是說因為怎樣有紀律委員會我在這邊再念一次立法委員的這個行為法本章所稱的這個叫利益迴避指的是立法委員行使職權不當增加本人或其關係人金錢、物品或其他財產我再念一次"},{"start":6243.2,"end":6262.121,"text":"只立法委員行使職權不當增加其本人或關係人金錢、物品或其他財產。」我就問吳宗憲、趙偉那一天你在程序上所做的不當的財事是增加了你的金錢上的不當的財產嗎?是利益迴避事項嗎?不是啊!它是整體迴避問題啊!"},{"start":6263.903,"end":6288.988,"text":"那為什麼要用紀律委員會?如果你自己覺得有金錢上的問題用紀律委員會那我當然很歡迎再來就是紀律委員會是要用主席才是你那天就是主席啊當時設計這個法條的時候根本就沒有把你這個狀況放進來嘛所以到底是誰沒有在念法律這件事情我覺得是值得商榷的或許這可能也不是法律的問題這是到底有沒有中文程度的問題"},{"start":6290.388,"end":6314.845,"text":"第二個我要講的是今天不斷地我們要實質討論這件事情今天提出的是到底有沒有重複我們講形式跟實質形式上總共24條文今天條號上只有12個重複那另外12個沒有重複的那怎麼會是重複討論呢這是第一個第二個是按照目前的法規如果說你今天有重複討論指的是你前面已經實質討論了嘛"},{"start":6316.326,"end":6327.476,"text":"我們前幾天有沒有做任何的實質討論沒有啊七個小時我總共只發言七分鐘這怎麼會是一個實質討論呢所以這完全不符合所謂的重複表決謝謝"},{"start":6330.421,"end":6337.128,"text":"好 謝謝我們審委員的確我們本委員會目前本席主持之下並沒有重複審查的問題那也謝謝剛剛這個審判委員的補充那在這裡就剛剛委員的詢問包括謝玉鳳委員不在場我也這邊做個說明那麼在我們本院"},{"start":6348.098,"end":6371.211,"text":"同一個委員會類似或同樣的法案名稱有沒有有不同招委來排的呢?我這裡提供兩個部分在同一屆當中我們111年在未完委員會第十屆第六次的第六會期當中有先由林惟洲招委排了《陰害防治法》的詢答他在3月23號排的詢答然後呢"},{"start":6373.092,"end":6393.32,"text":"在五月二十三號的時候由瀨會委員員進行來審查。那另外在第九屆第七次的會期當中同樣的交通委員會道路交通管理處罰條例當中先是有李昆澤召委排案審查然後呢又有四月二十九號陳雪生委員排案審查這都是本院"},{"start":6394.02,"end":6410.455,"text":"不同的委員會就同樣名稱的法案由不同的召委在不同的時間排審。至於提到說在不同會期當中甚至有內政委員會住宅法在第九屆第一會期是由黃昭順召委來排審。到了第二會期由趙天寧委員來排審。我要強調的本院的一事不在意原則配合會期不連續原則"},{"start":6419.043,"end":6429.821,"text":"他就是一時不在意在同一個屆期不連續同一屆當中我們對於同樣條號同樣內容同樣的法案呢我們做不在意"},{"start":6430.578,"end":6456.733,"text":"那是指同一屆那我們在同一屆的當中的不同會期也有由不同委員會來排審原因是什麼?原因在於該草案並沒有完成審查通過交付院會處理的程序我再強調一次因為目前委員會法案的秩序是在於我們侵襲役的委員會有審查完略並沒有通過任何版本的條文所以"},{"start":6457.393,"end":6470.16,"text":"到我們立法院職權行使法第十二條第三項並沒有已通過的條文重複或重新審議的情況。」那在這裡特別說明。那接下來我們就來進行提案說明及報告。"},{"start":6481.567,"end":6506.501,"text":"待會進行程序的進行我們絕對不反對不管提案說明乃至於行答但是在這裡我要點出一個問題記得禮拜一我在講話的時候有講過一句話叫藝術則不打我們眼睜睜看你怎麼演剛才省法院委員就點出核心的問題了"},{"start":6508.089,"end":6521.802,"text":"第二個立法院委員會在審查的時候要出委會都要每一個關卡都是合法的而且是有一節的都要表決的我們有異議你不管"},{"start":6523.298,"end":6546.626,"text":"這中間我要告訴國民黨委員要告訴民進黨委員上個禮拜一讓強行出委員會的議事程序法案全部合獨樹獨國的理論都可以廢棄的這是留下一個將來大家爭辯的焦點然後這個時間告訴各位我們過去不管怎麼樣人事都是少數"},{"start":6548.444,"end":6566.539,"text":"在衝突中沒有辦法順利審議的時候在所有人圍到底下主席要一直地言即便再怎麼困難也要把每一個關卡經過程序、表決、意義都要講完才可以出委員會"},{"start":6568.755,"end":6594.104,"text":"我記憶中最有名的一個案子,會計法修正國務教會。上次在審查的時候,趙惠水、趙偉世、郭國文。但是在審查的時候,他沒有把整個程序完整呈現,我們認了,重新再來。你認為這樣的行為,你認為走得過去未來在朝野鄉,未來因為我們的挑戰嗎?欲速則不達。"},{"start":6597.304,"end":6605.446,"text":"不要以為你們這樣一輪壓下去,我就眼睜睜看你們怎麼弄這問題請好好思考一下"},{"start":6607.468,"end":6629.221,"text":"好,謝謝我們柯總召的發言我們會確保每位在場委員的發言權益以及參與討論的權益這點本席會務必來貫徹那也非常謝謝到目前的進行為止呢各位委員都依照議事規則來進行發言那我們希望接下來我們繼續按照這個方式來走完那先進行提案說明及報告"},{"start":6632.166,"end":6645.304,"text":"報告部分我們已經有書面報告了那我們進行提案說明發言時間三分鐘首先請第一位提案人民進黨黨團代表吳委員思堯進行提案說明時間三分鐘"},{"start":6649.693,"end":6671.034,"text":"謝謝主席我代表民主進步黨團立法院職權行使法來進行提案說明首先開宗明義向所有的國人朋友那跨黨派的委員來進行報告民主進步黨這一次職權行使法修正的條文有24條大方向上我們恪守憲法絕對合憲合規"},{"start":6673.456,"end":6698.313,"text":"也遵從實務的經驗,它一定是合理可行的議案。更重要的是,國會改革要全責相符,國會有權就要有責,所以民進黨的版本絕對是在合憲、合規、合理可行、全責相符的前提下,我們的版本24條經得起檢驗,也歡迎各界一起來檢視。"},{"start":6699.714,"end":6719.708,"text":"那我來說明我們有四大面向的修正第一大部分是立法委員職尋權的保障要予以提升為了要保障來履行憲法五十七條第一項所定我國立法權之核心職權也就是立法委員神聖不可侵犯的職尋權我們要讓立法院的意識運作法制化"},{"start":6723.851,"end":6749.353,"text":"不再發生在院會或在委員會職權被沒收的情事。所以我們提出了第21條的修正案。第二大面向,民進黨團要強化立法院的人事同意權的行使程序,讓它更周延。不管是憲法層次或是法律層次的人事同意權的行使,我們都清楚地在條文當中來區分行使表決權之門檻。"},{"start":6750.814,"end":6774.297,"text":"而且為了要讓人事同意權的行使更周延更客觀更多元更來履行嚴謹性我們擴大學者專家公民團體社會公正人士的參與來強化審議程序我們要有公聽會第三面向就是重中之重的調查權民主進步黨的版本是調查"},{"start":6775.638,"end":6779.002,"text":"條約雙軌劃在院會層級有調查委員會在委員會層級有條約的小組那這個部分總共有19個條文完全都遵守大法官誓字585號"},{"start":6790.735,"end":6797.837,"text":"解釋六三三號的原則。立法院的調查權乃至於調閱權都是行使憲法職權賦予的輔助性權利,它是一個資訊的獲取權,所以民進黨的版本絕對不會是國會特徵處來入人於罪,也絕對不會有藐視國會罪強化人權的疑慮。"},{"start":6812.521,"end":6817.763,"text":"最後一項民進黨的版本很重要的就是也要來完備黨團協商的規範我們各提出職權行使法第七十條還有七十四之一條的修正要落實會議的公開原則那黨團協商的過程也應當詳實記錄而且透明公開在國會頻道來播放"},{"start":6834.128,"end":6836.129,"text":"另外,為了健全議事規範,我們也明訂禁負二讀之應交付黨團協商這個部分,把它明確化、法制化,不會發生由黨團不清楚規範產生實務執行爭議的事件。"},{"start":6850.439,"end":6855.041,"text":"那由提案委員來所屬的黨團就負責召集該次的協商讓條文更完備所以職權行使法民進黨有24個條文那樣樣像像我們都歡迎大家來提供寶貴的意見而唯有透過逐條充分理性多元的對話才能夠讓條文更好讓國會改革更進步另外再補充除了職權行使法民進黨的國會改革版本另外在議事規則也有提案"},{"start":6878.792,"end":6892.846,"text":"修正、在立法委員行為法也有提案修正以及在立法院組織法我們也有提案修正而這另外三個法案的修正到目前為止只有民進黨團提出修正因為民進黨團要求我們是"},{"start":6896.809,"end":6913.575,"text":"權責相符的國會而不是只擴權不對自我克責跟自律的國會這是我們版本跟在野黨最大的不同所以大家也歡迎一起去檢視立法委員行為法、立法院組織法乃至於議事規則的修正案只有民主進步黨版本提出負責任可行進步的條文謝謝大家"},{"start":6918.978,"end":6947.637,"text":"謝謝吳委員的發言在這裡主席也做一個宣告讓大家知道一下預告啦關於剛剛吳委員提到的其他的立法院組織法立法委員行為法以及本院的議事規則那麼我會在下週本席輪值召委的同時將包括民進黨在內如果還有其他黨團的委員或委員個人的提案都會併入來排付交付審議好那麼接下來我們請提案人翁委員小林進行提案說明"},{"start":6967.987,"end":6972.35,"text":"主席在座的各位委員各位行政官員大家好"},{"start":6973.891,"end":6977.586,"text":"今天在談到"},{"start":6981.099,"end":7004.629,"text":"這個應該說之前在整個程序發言其實拖了非常長的時間大家都非常關心我們的憲法如何規定我們這次所提的國會改革相關法案有沒有抵觸憲法我必須說這件事情其實在之前的公聽會上面還有這個多次的委員會上面的詢答裡面都已經確認過所提出來的"},{"start":7008.64,"end":7025.885,"text":"國會改革的種種的法案並沒有違背憲法的規定。」這個是我們在完備已經被遺忘已久的這個國會調查權以及國會改革的相關法案。之前民進黨委員口口聲聲說"},{"start":7035.353,"end":7040.8,"text":"我們所要求總統來立院進行國情報告是違憲。有違憲嗎?"},{"start":7046.394,"end":7071.288,"text":"請總統來立院進行國情報告並且接受疑問疑答。」這有違憲嗎?我不知道什麼時候他們真的變成憲法的釋憲者。好像我們所有的規定都必須要經過民進黨委員的認同不違憲,那才叫做是合憲的規定。請尊重每一位立法委員的立法權。"},{"start":7074.551,"end":7101.978,"text":"我雖然是新科立委可是我也熟讀相關的立法院的議事規則以及立法院的職權行使法說實在話我真的很佩服之前的尤其是民進黨的委員這麼會玩議事程序、議事規則既然你們認為國會改革的法案這麼重要為什麼要浪費這麼多的時間在談一些言不及義的東西"},{"start":7104.929,"end":7132.293,"text":"我必須講國會調查權的法制已經延宕太久我們這次提出立法院的這個調查權以及聽證權這個是為了要能夠充實以及彌補立法委員過去透過質詢以及預算審查所不足的地方"},{"start":7133.663,"end":7160.804,"text":"我們希望能夠更妥善的去執行我們的職權當然必須要有充足的資訊在沒有充足的資訊前提之下我們怎麼可能會做好去扮演好立法委員的角色去真正的去執行有關於這個立法委員的相關的這個職權所以立法院的聽證以及"},{"start":7162.173,"end":7187.37,"text":"的調查權是有必要的,而且不能夠僅止於只有限於調閱文件的部分。」民進黨所提的版本雖然換了個名詞叫調查權,但是它還是只限於調閱文件而已。這跟之前的調閱文件權沒有差別。而我們現在是要將調查權能夠擴大到連相關的"},{"start":7192.193,"end":7195.236,"text":"立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":7205.198,"end":7224.729,"text":"民進黨的版本口口聲聲說是一個進步的國會改革法案但是請各位可以仔細去看一看他們講來講去其實還是跟沒有修法的意思是一樣的所以呢在這邊我希望我們的所有的國會改革法案都能夠往前進一步否則的話就是退步"},{"start":7226.811,"end":7251.514,"text":"好謝謝翁委員接下來有請提案人呂委員玉玲進行提案說明呃呂委員有兩案請呂委員玉玲進行提案說明呂委員玉玲不在那我們接下來請提案人鄭委員天才進行提案說明鄭委員天才鄭委員天才不在所以呢接下來我們接續請機關代表報告發言時間三分鐘有請立法院周秘書長報告"},{"start":7259.415,"end":7284.707,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生大家好貴人會今天舉行全體委員會議奉邀內席就委員所提立法院職權行使法修正草案進行報告深感榮幸貴人會於本年4月15日願以針對臺灣民眾黨團擬具立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案等十五案審查完略先於說明"},{"start":7285.908,"end":7312.33,"text":"本次排審的六案職權行使法修正草案共計五案,大體可分為四部分,一個是國情報告,人事同意權執行規案及建制、調查、代償權機制,請檢量說明如下。國情報告部分有關國情報告,已歸委員會3月21日第8次全體委員會議獲邀進行專題報告,相關重點已進行報告及說明草案修正"},{"start":7313.431,"end":7330.75,"text":"規定能代委員凝聚公室,遠不再重複。」人事統一權部分現行六案職權憲法第29條僅針對現法位階人事統一權程序有所規定法律位階之人事統一權目前依慣例交由常設委員會出題針對統一權行使方式應採記名或不記名"},{"start":7335.083,"end":7357.63,"text":"一、事務案解釋第七、六、九號解釋議職各有利弊,各國立法律均有之,另就臨時同意權員是否一律召開公聽會,外國立法律一不一,均屬立法形成自由之範疇,當尊重委員合意決定。執行部分,委員提案你將施政執行改採固定時間制。"},{"start":7359.19,"end":7383.514,"text":"寧併執行進行之規範或針對被刑官員委婉義務者可以法律責任等節涉及貶厭行使職權之程序。尊重委員合意決定是否予以法治化。調查權部分一、司法院4585號解釋議職文件調研原為調查權重要方法之一。兩者就採分別規範或與專章內統一規範。屬於立法證書之選擇尊重委員合意決定"},{"start":7388.12,"end":7415.634,"text":"二、各委員會於本年4月3日、10日及11日召開立法院職權行使法修法公聽會,各界對調查權行使之課題、範圍界限及強制手段選擇之意見不一,學者專家也對如何有效監督行政機關並避免侵犯人民自由、隱私權、緩緩機密外線危害國安等面向提供許多寶貴意見,因應未來國會調查"},{"start":7418.3,"end":7436.022,"text":"聽證權之條條整當尊重委員在委員問政監督權益之維護各縣政機關之職權的衡平行使以保密事項所欲保護之法益,兼取得衡平二之合一決定,及以行政幕僚的立場"},{"start":7436.883,"end":7451.468,"text":"對於上開提案,我們尊重各位委員審議的結果,也會配合處理相關後續行政支援工作,以使編院職權行使更為順暢。以上報告,敬請指教。謝謝。好,謝謝。接下來有請法務部陳次長報告。時間3分鐘。"},{"start":7458.464,"end":7473.88,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先生有關於今天審議的立法院職權行使法部分因為先前行政院已經有提出書面報告法務部對這方面尊重行政院的意見我要口頭再說明一下基本的架構我們是建議在"},{"start":7476.062,"end":7494.308,"text":"事法院四至第三二五、五八五號解釋、六三三號解釋、七二九號解釋等等的架構之下尊重各位委員審議的意見。那基本上這幾號解釋呢,大致上就是法律的明定相關的程序跟相關的這個"},{"start":7496.129,"end":7521.439,"text":"作法。第二個要得意見讓人民或是使用者包括委員包括機關能夠對意見他這個整體程序上的處理跟他後果如何。第三個可以做司法審查的部分。第四個要符合憲法23條之下的比例原則、法律明確性原則還有潛力分立原則等等這些的基本原則。另外有關於委員"},{"start":7522.259,"end":7525.26,"text":"短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短"},{"start":7552.833,"end":7573.163,"text":"協議義務等等這些的架構之下的話呢所說的處罰是不是請委員再做思考那在刑法方面的話呢能夠用其他方式來做處理讓我們整體的這個國會的這個職權能夠更加的完善也讓各界不會有相關的疑慮以上報告進行指教"},{"start":7574.96,"end":7603.28,"text":"那個不好意思主席啊,會議詢問可以嗎?我要請教一下,今天有沒有請法務部提書面報告啊?我們委員會沒有要求法務部提書面報告,他只有口頭不是啊,我建議這樣啦委員會有委員會運作的規範跟尊嚴今天找一個連書面報告都沒有提的行政單位上去做口頭報告我認為期期以為不可"},{"start":7604.774,"end":7626.696,"text":"法務部的立場到底是什麼?白紙黑字寫出來白紙黑字寫出來因為行政官員站在上面講話都不用負責任的我建議啦我建議啦如果有要請他上去做狗頭報告的話請行政機關先把書面報告交出來連書面報告都沒有交"},{"start":7629.357,"end":7651.044,"text":"謝謝,謝謝黃委員的指教,因為本委員會在接續星期一、星期三之後,我們的時間比較倉促,所以考量到時間上的許可,我們准予我們次長,請。那我想那個我們就開始進行那個...沒有沒有,我要回憶一下。來來,請請,那個也是會詢問嗎?好,那請。我看法齁,王國昌完全一致。這一點我,我剛才在聽..."},{"start":7652.498,"end":7680.989,"text":"事長有講話的時候,我趕快跑到後面去,先拿一點出來,我以為他有很好的書面報告啊,因為他講話都非常關鍵啊。為什麼?主席你以後可能要注意,注意完整一點。是,謝謝。上台報告的官員都要有書面啊,這不能這樣做。紅中委員剛剛講的這個事,我很少跟他一介一致,要泡個泡下去啊。沒有,真理是越變越明。"},{"start":7682.765,"end":7706.486,"text":"因為為什麼我剛一聽我在這裡一聽的時候他講到五八五、三二五這就對,六三三就對啊前一陣子都對啊他是這個意見很寶貴啊這就點出來憲法的規定是怎麼樣什麼叫合憲性所以從這個角度觀點切入的時候來看待其他委員的版本"},{"start":7707.657,"end":7736.779,"text":"那當然我在這裡還是要公然講一下吳宗憲委員和王昌委員在國會調查權上面他寫的是符合5854線的其他國民黨版本是非常離譜5854線釋出來他是針對稅務的補充嘛那補充他極致是什麼可以划緩只能是花錢而已在合理強制範圍內最後的手段是如此不是抓去關欸"},{"start":7738.499,"end":7764.938,"text":"所以我們在這裡我是主張說大家好好講好好編不是自己創新法自己創法律這個東西是不會成的嘛但是我要點還是要點醒齁我剛才前一位你所提的問題齁請副運區委員好好思考一下因為他不要以為他什麼時候都把他幹盡了安心到大陸去訪中齁"},{"start":7766.803,"end":7768.968,"text":"好,謝謝柯總召的會議詢問那陳榮剛本席對黃委員的會議詢問說明因為"},{"start":7775.432,"end":7800.813,"text":"時間的關係因為我們本週的議程有比較倉促所以呢準與我們委員會對機關發出開會通知的時候考量到時間的需要那我們因為今天所有出席機關代表的口頭補充都有逐字稿那我們呢待會的相關書面報告呢跟口頭呢都會列入公報的記錄那麼如果"},{"start":7803.24,"end":7831.928,"text":"法務部可以的話,可以請次長將剛剛的口頭說明啊,也以書面的方式送交本委員會來,可以嗎?好,謝謝。來,那麼機關代表報告完畢,相關書面報告內容請各位參閱,並…主席我有事情要補充,可以嗎?我再強調一次啦,不管今天議程是怎麼排,受邀練習的主要單位,那不是用議程排是不是倉促?為什麼法務部有特權?"},{"start":7833.885,"end":7843.832,"text":"立法院秘書長報告交得出來?司法院交得出來?就只有法務部交不出來?這樣的理由我們有辦法接受?"},{"start":7845.646,"end":7872.058,"text":"主席倫茲召委本周事議程我准予法務部免交報告那這一點呢各位委員的指教我們未來在會議的進行會繼續的改正好謝謝委員的指教接下來提案說明及機關報告已進行完畢現在開始詢答詢答時間本會委員為八分鐘會本會委員為四分鐘均不再延長那麼目前呢就截止發言登記請登記第一位黃委員國昌發言"},{"start":7892.083,"end":7894.365,"text":"麻煩有請立法院秘書長有請莊秘書長"},{"start":7905.327,"end":7928.224,"text":"秘書長好,延續上一次在針對國會改革法案的時候對您所提出來的詢問我知道您作為立法院的秘書長基本上是一個行政幕僚總管的性質所以在很多法案上您不便表示一切這個我都理解那因此接下來在針對有關於國會改革相關法案關鍵"},{"start":7929.745,"end":7954.097,"text":"重要的問題您在您方便的程度範圍內表達意見就好不用覺得太勉強過這段時間不斷的有立委說依據大法官釋字729相關的議案只要有涉及刑事偵查立法院就不可以組成第二小組秘書長你贊成這樣的法律見解嗎"},{"start":7955.557,"end":7972.414,"text":"是可以成立啦是可以成立啦由於他的規範喔是不違背7號、9號的期試說得非常的好可不可以成立調閱小組啊跟調閱了以後可以調閱什麼東西啊這是兩個完全不同層次的事情秘書長你贊不贊成"},{"start":7974.176,"end":7980.478,"text":"贊同贊成嘛7月9他的關鍵是什麼7月9他的關鍵是啊我們的立法院司法法制委員會成立了一個調閱小組以後跑去跟最高檢察署啊要求要調閱什麼要求調閱最高檢察署特他61啊的案件啊祕書長"},{"start":8000.1,"end":8027.482,"text":"您知不知道為什麼會有大法官釋字729號解釋文當時有一些事情發生當初有一些事情發生嘛你講得非常非常的為外當初就是司法法制委員會成立的調閱小組嘛跟最高檢察署要調閱特他六十一的卷嘛所以才被人家提釋憲嘛大法官才宣告違憲嘛他宣告違憲的是什麼"},{"start":8028.303,"end":8037.574,"text":"你成立這個調閱小組了以後怎麼會去跟人家調閱偵查中的卷證呢是這一件事情被宣告違憲這個才是核心而當初這個監聽調閱小組提案要成立的正是民主進步黨的黨團"},{"start":8048.166,"end":8067.216,"text":"要去調閱特他61的也正是民主進步黨的黨團要去調閱這一個所以被大法官4至7月9宣告違憶憲民進黨團一天到晚在跟大家講毀憲亂政、毀憲亂政結果在我們的大法官事件史上729號"},{"start":8070.407,"end":8088.262,"text":"在729號裡面被清楚的記下一筆的正是民主進步黨黨團當初要調的東西第二個問題我就非常的納悶我就回顧當初監聽調閱專案小組那個時候的意思路我發現"},{"start":8089.537,"end":8116.34,"text":"那個時候要退他六十一有個非常重要的關鍵點那個重要的關鍵點是說因為我們的國會的電話是不是有被監聽那為什麼會產生國會的電話是不是有被監聽的問題因為那時候涉及到了我們那個時候立法院的院長王金平跟在野黨最大的黨鞭柯建民是不是有去關說司法的問題"},{"start":8118.004,"end":8143.464,"text":"叫曾永夫交代高等檢察署的檢察官針對柯建民所涉及的刑事案件不可以提起上訴就是因為這件事情整個風暴才全部都起來但我看完了以後我發現很奇怪那個說2013年監聽調閱專案小組柯建民某個程度上可以說是涉案當事人"},{"start":8144.724,"end":8156.403,"text":"他為什麼可以參加這個監聽調閱專案小組啊?律師長依照您的高度您對於立法院裡面利益衝突迴避的理解你認為這樣妥當嗎?"},{"start":8158.117,"end":8186.144,"text":"因為那是由委員會來組成的,我不太了解你也不太了解嘛,所以按照民主黨您今天表示的意見是說以後我們成立不管是調閱委員會還是調閱小組涉案的當事人自己參與這個調閱小組都不會有什麼問題民主黨您的立場是這樣嗎?按照相當規定去處理那你認為應該的相關規定是什麼?"},{"start":8188.211,"end":8208.901,"text":"涉及到有相關性的利害的當然有需要迴避需要迴避嘛OK齁秘書長您可能講到這邊啊我老實講已經是勇氣可嘉勇氣可嘉齁沒有關係第二個爭點過去又有民主進步黨的立委啊說政府惡毒一定"},{"start":8209.561,"end":8225.011,"text":"要交付黨團協商。」那個時候他們提出這個主張的時候我就百思不得其解到底規範在哪裡結果今天民進黨自己提出來的法案終於承認了這件事情根本沒規範"},{"start":8226.696,"end":8242.719,"text":"這件事情根本沒規範所以他們希望按照他們覺得他們想要的方式提了這個修正草案嘛秘書長我的理解有沒有錯誤如果容許我講兩分鐘可以是是是我給你兩分鐘"},{"start":8243.94,"end":8269.926,"text":"因為當時在第四屆第六會期的時候在處理的時候因為是由黨團有給法治局做就是黨團協商是原則是由法治局來主政來寫條文啦那時候我恰好是後面到台聯那邊去報告一些國會的運作回來以後當然在會的時候我是有加了第十條之一"},{"start":8270.606,"end":8298.186,"text":"那當時的法治局是認為大概比較沒有爭議的案會進入二度那在實際運作上反而是爭議的話才會進入二度比較多啦那後來這事變成是一個漏洞那漏洞就在公民投票法裡面有一個案例所以這也是不成文的一個例規一個意思例啦並不是在法院有規定所以才會有第八條的第二項"},{"start":8299.187,"end":8319.308,"text":"跟第三項如果有面臨到這個的時候再按照案例就是會交黨團協商是這樣的一個整個一個過程好來那就問題就來了嘛第一個我們剛剛確認了目前立法院職權行使法也好議事規則也好從來沒有一條說淨富二獨要交付黨團協商我的理解正不正確"},{"start":8321.616,"end":8340.743,"text":"好,那我們接下來再看實際的例子嘛實際的例子在第十屆第一會期第十三次會議的時候民主進步黨黨團自己提案喔進復二讀的提案喔欸他沒有說要交付黨團協商欸他進復二讀的提案是什麼必!造案通過"},{"start":8342.486,"end":8367.023,"text":"那奇怪囉?民主進步黨怎麼一方面要主張進步二讀一定要交付黨團協商喔?結果自己推的案子符合他們需要方便的時候這個進步二讀不用交黨團協商啊就直接照案通過啊因為拜讀他們的提案表啊這個是我們民主進步黨黨團總召柯建民簽名的啊上面寫說您請願會進步二讀並什麼?照案通過"},{"start":8370.882,"end":8396.924,"text":"那就奇怪啦!民進黨不是說政府要一定要交付黨團協商嗎?怎麼會提出這樣子一個違反他們自己心中所認定的規定的提案呢?這證明了什麼事?這證明了什麼事?這證明了民進黨心中他們在意的從來就不是立法院要怎麼建立規矩從來關心的就是我喜歡怎麼樣就怎麼樣"},{"start":8397.805,"end":8409.231,"text":"別人近乎二讀,不希望交付黨團協商。而自己近乎二讀,然後失望,造案通過,他就造案通過。我算啦,是很尊重主席的人啦。主席站起來了,我一定會尊重。"},{"start":8422.13,"end":8442.946,"text":"但大家所有在看的人可以去看看剛剛程序發言的時候說兩分鐘也好三分鐘也好站在對面講了多久站在對面講了多久大家可以去計時基本上面的規矩跟規範這個國會的運作我再強調一次不是某一個人愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹謝謝"},{"start":8450.421,"end":8468.092,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員的發言為了議事運作順暢有時候本席在主持會的時候會盡量給予多寬容那現在議事進行非常順暢就希望各位發言的委員能夠遵守我們發言的規則接下來有請我們柯委員發言"},{"start":8476.144,"end":8476.824,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8495.848,"end":8516.57,"text":"很可惜,他們委員走了,走了啦。他要挑戰我,我馬上要回答啊。他在做宿外裁判,今天講國會改革,他提到其他問題去,沒有關係,正好我在場。第一個,他們很守規矩,時間大就要走。剛才時間到了以後,他後面還講多久?"},{"start":8518.485,"end":8538.184,"text":"這個活生生的案例大家都現在都看得很清楚吧當然這個大家這樣所花的時間這是好事難免有時候國會是沒有100%啦但是大家都都基於尊重立場上所以呢黃委員你兩公共是在爭執嘛救世好就大家留在旁邊"},{"start":8539.21,"end":8559.854,"text":"這才是我們今天要面對的啊他講兩個問題我回答第一個729事實是怎麼來的只有事實因為我引起的當年九月二號戰爭大家都知道嘛我告黃世民幹嘛一久這個是我告什麼漢奴會憲政體制終結特務制國黃世民監聽國會"},{"start":8564.091,"end":8589.415,"text":"這何等大事啊前世的民主國家只要然後和馬來西亞人兩個人天天看監聽資料如何追查柯建民然後如何做政治操作這是馬來西亞人一輩子的恥辱華盛頓因此而下台可以監聽國會然後對我是二十四小時現役的各位"},{"start":8590.94,"end":8617.066,"text":"這是民主國家的現象嗎?所以我在這裡的時候問王子明你跟馬英九見面幾次?為什麼一個檢察總統誰以為跟總統分門呢?他說一次,我說你再想清楚他說兩次,我說你死定了各位,這個都是我留下的紀錄我說你死定了,為什麼?你根本隨時跟他見面嘛隨時跟他通電話嘛"},{"start":8618.686,"end":8647.249,"text":"然而總統跟總統在照政治操作違法監聽,這個世界民主國家總統就下台了。總統是憲法守護者。所以我是要尋釋掉的。掉的什麼?掉童年紀錄。到底馬英九跟黃毓民的童話童年紀錄,這掉出來真相大白。馬英九是何時能看啊?"},{"start":8648.386,"end":8670.067,"text":"這個官司他要跟我打嗎?是不是這樣?所以他很勤的抵抗前,不提供就是不提供。後來,好像市民還曾經跟蘋果日報講說,他要跟委員長通話無數,統統要同仁同義。所以他要調他的通聯紀錄,就是如此啊。他自己提供也自己來啊。"},{"start":8671.488,"end":8691.635,"text":"所以才有他們操作一個,才有一個大法官729解釋嘛,說政策中的安全不可以掉月子。要問的,這是一個,各位區議士這樣走過來,洪國昌到底懂什麼?他以為抓到我小輩子可以在這裡打我一番,痛打一番,可是他沒有臉來面對我。第二個,"},{"start":8695.691,"end":8700.217,"text":"二、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案：立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":8714.136,"end":8726.649,"text":"當然要朝野鄉一個月嘛。合作法立法院這個案子,我們國會,國會改了這個法,也不是在這裡審了啦。禮拜一國民黨也不要演這一套,進入二讀就馬上通過。今天當然要朝野協商啊。他幾個案例說進入二讀然後通過,那是朝野鄉裡面大家簽好的。"},{"start":8735.049,"end":8759.037,"text":"彭文昌彭文昌彭文昌彭文昌彭文昌彭文昌彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭文彭"},{"start":8760.484,"end":8773.649,"text":"希望他等一下進入主條的時候,我來跟他對這些問題。時間到了嗎?因為我黃班看不到。還有三分半。所以說今天我們是在講國會改革。"},{"start":8775.431,"end":8799.73,"text":"國會改革的時候就比喻說,把收支金額組馬上通過,不可能的。請問你用什麼手段,收支金額組可以,那才超享一個月嗎?當然是那種金額二組大家同意底下會馬上通過,這是立法院最快速的一刻。那兩手緊急事項,可能是條約案,可能是大法官釋憲時間一年到了,"},{"start":8800.779,"end":8829.285,"text":"不趕快處理,立法院會有失職守。這件事很特別,大家有共識的,才有可能提出驚惡圖,然後讓他牽草耳箱,讓他過去。所以黃國昌故意忽略那一段,如果要說事情,就要一天一天說。所以今天我要在這裡,用很短的時間,來告訴國民黨立委。我剛才點出一個很重要的問題,沒有程式正義,絕對沒有實質正義。"},{"start":8832.171,"end":8850.044,"text":"擬一般應當的所有程序全部違法。我不知道將來在院會的所有如何表決,什麼我已經很科技危險地點出來,我沒有好明講。所有反正都要經過一決了,大法官三四二號解釋,"},{"start":8851.448,"end":8879.42,"text":"大法官三思要解釋你為什麼有三思?因為國安戶口有關係當然國安戶口在任何表決處理的時候黃金平院長馬上喊通過沒有經過預決所以大法官三思要解釋說你把所有的事情經過預決的話除非違反憲法那可以排除其他法律因為你這個是在修憲法案你可以這樣搞法嗎?"},{"start":8880.981,"end":8901.527,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8901.852,"end":8928.57,"text":"吳宗憲委員、新科委員他根本不了解他在這個地方犯到幾下錯誤也隱瞞下著國會改革無法在AOI處理的衝突性因素我剛才講說國民黨總召傅文綺委員馬上去大陸他以為安心可以走了他走到幹什麼幹的都尾聲亂頓都走完了我警告各位國民黨委員在那天審查的時候"},{"start":8929.636,"end":8959.048,"text":"並且表情是無奈的,內心是掙扎的。因為國民黨的部分期判,黃國昌搭這個私入列車要開往前來,讓你們集體去跳樓,這是一個你們當那個違憲的兵馬俑,共同埋葬嗎?這一刻你們都得好好想一想,是怎麼搞的?因為我眼睛紅斑齁,我一直想走規矩啦。"},{"start":8959.915,"end":8986.267,"text":"此事若無所謂,也就我黃班正要在治療中。所以黃文謙國民黨委員,坐在這裡,主席會否無奈,你給副總召說啦。副總召就叫黃國昌兩個拔嘴一下,這是可以轉動台灣、轉動全世界以為是這樣的,可惜就是還沒掌控。請國民黨委員,你們未來要接受民意調查的這一刻,是你們最後檢驗時候。"},{"start":8990.375,"end":8999.983,"text":"謝謝柯總召,剛剛柯總召所說的主席應該是指周一輪值的吳釗偉,不好意思,還是要說明一下接下來有請羅委員志強發言有請周秘書長"},{"start":9018.152,"end":9030.687,"text":"民主黨好,其實同樣,也是跟黃國昌委員一樣有些在你能回答的範圍之內,我們就來就教一下今天民進黨2024年的國會閹割法案當然他們認為是國會改革"},{"start":9036.27,"end":9053.449,"text":"我這邊也跟秘書長報告一下實際上我覺得今天我看到2024年民進黨的國會改革法案我想到八個字就是欲練神功必先至功"},{"start":9055.38,"end":9075.378,"text":"就是典型的葵花寶典不過神功蓋世是行政院然後我們立法院就要在民進黨的所謂的葵花至公寶典當中就自我閹割這自我閹割不是個評價而已我們就來一一來就教一下我們民進黨真的是令人嘆為觀止的"},{"start":9077.66,"end":9094.058,"text":"自我閹割版本我先來講民進黨的這個2016年的國會改革版本跟2024年的國會改革版本到底差別在哪裡也就教一下我們的秘書長到底為什麼會有這樣的差別我們先來看第29條"},{"start":9096.001,"end":9112.67,"text":"第二十九條2016年的民進黨版本跟2020年差別在哪裡?第一個民進黨在新的版本這個閹割版當中把檢察總長、中選會主委、公平會主委、NCC主委的同意權從院會移到委員會審查"},{"start":9113.951,"end":9137.783,"text":"然後而且刪掉了2016年審查意見擬具報告提送院會他刪除審查期不得少於一個月的規定也就把我們的審查的密度跟期程縮短那更重要的是他把表決從記名改成無記名表決門檻也閹割本來在民進黨2016年版本是全體一半現在也是全體一半"},{"start":9138.786,"end":9147.852,"text":"他自己閹割掉啊,變成出席委員一半,變比較少啊,門檻比較低啊。所以我要跟各位講啊,我要想要請教一下我們的秘書長。"},{"start":9149.414,"end":9174.354,"text":"到底我們今天的表決以現在我們的立法院正副院長我們現在都改採記名表決已經大家都往這討論民進黨也認同所以民進黨的技術性的亮票都已經在做了那為什麼人事同意權今天結果我們民進黨的自我閹割版本的把它改成所謂的無記名呢你認同覺得現在還是人事審查權要無記名嗎"},{"start":9176.325,"end":9204.24,"text":"我想大概由委員來決定這一個到底要不要記名不記名啦那版本裡面來看是因為在禮拜一裡面大部分都是用記名表決啦來 方式來處理那現在的民進黨今天的提案版本是寫無記名啦那自己剛才有提到是一個現行法裡面的處理是不是憲政的"},{"start":9205.06,"end":9209.163,"text":"一、民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文擬具:「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文"},{"start":9225.914,"end":9236.026,"text":"我才為什麼一直剛剛跟我們柯總要講說什麼東施、孝平齁我說這今天不是用東施、孝平來看啊但你眼睛是放在2016年版本你知道稀釋捧心啊"},{"start":9236.952,"end":9238.313,"text":"二、委員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":9257,"end":9280.645,"text":"民進黨的第30條在2016版本他是要求被提名人學歷、經歷、財產、稅務、刑案記錄所有這些離離口口的相關資料都要拿出來喔欸今天2024年全部刪掉了所以被提名人的學歷、經歷、財產、稅務、刑案記錄都不重要嗎還是今天被提名人愛丟什麼資料就丟什麼資料"},{"start":9283.064,"end":9303.163,"text":"我想要問一下秘書長就是說基本上到底我們是不是應該對被提名人在審查更慎重資料更周全比較好呢審查密度能夠更高當然是比較會更卓越對被提名人會比較更了解接下來我們再看這個第45條"},{"start":9306.414,"end":9312.554,"text":"第四十五條在2016年的版本跟2024年版本最大的差別在於說"},{"start":9313.646,"end":9338.421,"text":"他就採取所謂的僅限於什麼樣情況之下我要跟各位講這立法的文字你應該正面表列先查法都正面表列但你還先自我告訴大家說什麼情況之下不能行使不能行使自然有相關法律跟憲法的規定但是不用這個卑躬屈膝道還要特別強調說我們只能如何如何才能開始進行所謂調查權"},{"start":9339.501,"end":9367.599,"text":"再來就講所謂的調閱我們講調查委員會跟專案小組的部分第46條民進黨的2016跟2024版本就是刪除了新的版本刪除了文件可在會期外調閱的規定將調查專案小組改為調閱專案小組全線限縮只能要求機關就特定議案提供參考文件"},{"start":9368.419,"end":9389.245,"text":"必要時才能夠要求文件原本。」2016年的民進黨不是這個樣子。我想請教我們的秘書長,會期並不限制立法權吧?我們在國會的調查權是屬於立法權輔助性權利,為什麼要用會期來限制我們今天的調查權呢?"},{"start":9391.517,"end":9416.994,"text":"以現行法來當時我們在理的說是這一個委員會或是小組成立一定在會期中啦至於在調閱的這個時間上是不受這一個在修會前是可以行使的然後另外吼要求竟然是只要求參考文件我真的是覺得說民進黨真的不要把立法院搞成行政機關的小媳婦啦小媳婦啦"},{"start":9417.708,"end":9432.292,"text":"那各位抱歉另外我再講一次比較嚴重一點的還有一點就是什麼呢還有一點就是民進黨這48條的部分那也很厲害他48條裡面呢他本來是說這個虛偽陳述的"},{"start":9434.733,"end":9454.943,"text":"要處罰 要罰虛偽陳述特別強調說謊官員要罰這是2016年民進黨版本裡面的可是我不懂為什麼2024年版本特別別把虛偽陳述拿掉特別跟大家講說抱歉我新的版本我沒有要處理說謊官員啦我現在請問秘書長說謊官員官員可以在立法院說謊嗎"},{"start":9461.084,"end":9461.905,"text":"我要跟秘書長說的,也跟我們所有的民眾說的"},{"start":9477.895,"end":9503.927,"text":"就是說這一段時間你會發現我們在談國會聽證調查以及尤其官員處罰的這個部分我發現民進黨有一個新的民進黨的朋友不敢說全部的民進黨有一個新的辯護的方式就是說官員在這個聽證調查竟然沒有說謊的權利啦我會發現會有這樣的一個印象就是2024年民進黨的版本當中竟然把虛偽不實陳述拿掉"},{"start":9505.553,"end":9527.392,"text":"這個版本能看嗎?我真是覺得民進黨你對不起我們2016年的民進黨啦以上好謝謝羅委員的發言齁那麼先做預告稍後在省委員發會詢答完畢後我們休息五分鐘接著請省委員發會進行詢答喔對不起換過了嗎喔對不起齁這邊是吳世耀委員抱歉好"},{"start":9540.384,"end":9541.805,"text":"國會改革需要符合程序正義,更需要合憲合規。國會改革要回應人民的期待,有權就要有責。下一頁這三個缺一不可的要素您都支持嗎?"},{"start":9567.438,"end":9568.439,"text":"所以他當然要程序正義當然要合憲合規當然要選擇相輔下一頁"},{"start":9587.148,"end":9597.099,"text":"但是呢,非常遺憾,我們的國會改革就從這週一的被社會看見了,社會也撻伐了。竹條但不被審查,然後有案卻沒有辦法併案。"},{"start":9603.966,"end":9624.695,"text":"所以我要再次說程序不正義這是可惜了國會改革而我們再看看我稍後會來檢視我們都同意國會要更有武器更能夠有效監督但是國會的職能要提升所以呢我們不能過當的只從擴權的方向去提案"},{"start":9628.757,"end":9656.797,"text":"我們應當在憲法給予的非常清楚的界限裡頭提出合憲的條文然後權責也不能不相符我們不期待更是社會不期待的只談擴權不提立委的自律跟克責的這種國會三個要件都不具足這就是國會的假改革程序不正義不合憲不合規"},{"start":9658.738,"end":9667.203,"text":"權責不相符,這就是民服其實的國會假改革,也是不折不扣的國會增擴權。」"},{"start":9670.596,"end":9694.25,"text":"我前一位委員羅志強委員他真的很喜歡回顧歷史喔修法要往前走修法不能逗退嚕我們國會要更進步修法不是在懷舊不是在考古我已經多次說明了不需要東施笑評要學就好好學要抄條文就抄好的條文"},{"start":9698.732,"end":9700.373,"text":"民主進步黨2016的條文經過社會的檢視沒有社會的公示所以我們喊卡這是負責任的權利自治民主進步黨2016的條文正因為跟憲法585號"},{"start":9715.205,"end":9737.563,"text":"有關於調查跟聽證權的漢格他是有違憲之餘的所以民主進步黨即使居於國會多數我們也不會強行碾壓在憲法之前每一個人都要低頭都要謙遜所以羅委員很喜歡拿2016民主進步黨自己都已經認為經過檢視不適宜再提出來的法案"},{"start":9742.527,"end":9761.138,"text":"結果現在羅志強委員一再的拿2016年的版本來奉為歸孽。修法不是懷舊。修法也不是文化資產一定要復舊如舊。修法就要進步、合憲、往前走。"},{"start":9761.878,"end":9781.744,"text":"所以我這裡提出來有關於漢革了行政人士權有關於要超越了司法權跟監察權有關於違反憲法第三、增修條文第三條以及四之三條的總統到立法院國情報告的憲法規定這些都是現在國民黨版"},{"start":9783.174,"end":9806.938,"text":"民眾黨黨所犯下的凌駕憲法的違憲條文。」所以我這裡再一次列舉違反大法官釋字不勝美舉。認真的委員、虛心檢視的委員應當好好的去把這些釋憲案從頭到尾看一看。下一頁。"},{"start":9808.493,"end":9811.174,"text":"民主進步黨的版本保障立委的職群權。我想民主黨應當同意為了讓議事人員好做事也不會凡事都推給議事人員來當代罪羔羊所以民進黨在職權行使法21條提出我們明定立委職群的順序及時間"},{"start":9827.159,"end":9837.183,"text":"就不會再發生因為其他立委沒有到場或提早諮詢結束然後也逼得主席當下也不知道該如何示好然後祕書處的人員也急得如火鍋上的螞蟻不知道要怎麼樣來緩解這樣的狀況這是過去30年立法院沒有發生的狀況"},{"start":9846.067,"end":9861.581,"text":"所以民進黨入法、法制化讓委員的質詢的時間予以法制化您應當支持吧這是避免我們議事人員未來的困擾也不會讓韓國瑜院長未來也會有再一次的困擾您同意吧"},{"start":9863.503,"end":9869.269,"text":"因為當時在黨團協商,我們有做過演繹當然這次行使職權程序還是有審查會來做決定不過我只跟委員報告"},{"start":9877.256,"end":9879.497,"text":"事由．立法院司法及法制委員會議．立法院職權行使法部分條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":9901.664,"end":9910.957,"text":"有支持方每一個議案的進行每一個法案的執行會有它好更好的一面也許也會有"},{"start":9912.459,"end":9920.806,"text":"產生一些委員要在場等待的情形但我相信多數的委員是願意等待時間的啦因為憲法所賦予的立委職權權是神聖不可剝奪的也請這是一旬剛剛秘書長提醒的非常好這是韓國瑜院長所召開的朝野協商的結論我們把它入法化法制化下一頁"},{"start":9935.777,"end":9953.153,"text":"我們來看看民進黨的第二個部分就是完備人事同意權的行使程序有關於記名或無記名我也要糾正一下羅志祥委員的說法您的說法錯誤民進黨團沒有去更正記名或無記名的修法"},{"start":9953.894,"end":9970.585,"text":"而是維持現行條文。國會從過去到現在對於人事、對人的同意權一向是以無記名投票來為之。」包括這一次大家在投的立法院的韓國瑜院長。就是如此。所以民進黨在職權行使法針對完備人事同意權的部分我們在29條、30條、31條就是要讓它可以加嚴、加密"},{"start":9979.19,"end":9986.295,"text":"的好好審查而且民進黨的版本是可以輔助召開溝聽會講話人事審議程序的多元客觀嚴謹性我想這個部分我們在審議過程當中應當也可以獲得社會人民的支持因為不管在憲法層級或法律層級的人事同意權民主進步黨的立場就是讓他加嚴加密的實質審查謝謝下一頁"},{"start":10008.717,"end":10012.064,"text":"好,重中之重來了為了不跟憲法585號的釋字案漢革我們嚴格的檢視"},{"start":10017.598,"end":10038.781,"text":"職權行使法的調查調閱的這個章節。民進黨在第八章裡頭分兩個章節分流處理雙軌處理才不會有所漢格也在權力義務非常的明確所以我們的調查權是依憲法賦予立法院職權有重大關聯者"},{"start":10040.529,"end":10045.112,"text":"然後不得侵犯行政特權不得調閱訴訟中案件也詳定了保密的義務更增訂了利益迴避的義務以及如果有人在調查調閱的過程當中行使了這個虛偽不實之陳述我們也依法律的授權對不起是憲法的授權增訂行政法這是大法官解釋325號"},{"start":10069.79,"end":10093.579,"text":"五八五號六三三號七二九號的規範我們都符合憲法的規範所以民主進步黨2024的版本是有調查權是有調閱權請在野黨的委員不要來做虛偽不實的訊息傳散再次強調沒有任何人可以在國會說謊"},{"start":10096.018,"end":10121.93,"text":"民主進步黨絕對要求在國會的每一個人都要基於事實去陳述沒有任何人可以在國會說謊所以如果有虛偽不實質陳述依憲法的規範依大法官誓字所賦予的授權增訂相關的行政法環這是民主進步黨合憲的主張但是民進黨不會支持國民黨黨的藐視國會罪"},{"start":10125.111,"end":10138.51,"text":"因為他擴及人民今天路人甲路人乙都會被傳來國會問到滿問到飽今天任何一個企業不管是中小企業還是大型企業也會被立法院叫來"},{"start":10141.346,"end":10162.755,"text":"條約、調查、問道滿、問道保如果你講的答案不是立委要聽的對不起藐視國會罪被關三年罰三十萬還有更高的罰還這就是強害人權所以最後呢我要再次說明國會改革就是權責相符不能夠容許"},{"start":10167.575,"end":10181.846,"text":"國會特徵組在這一次的在野黨版本裡頭具備創設出來。國民黨的版本國會特徵組藐視國會罪就是要打造不折不扣的"},{"start":10184.439,"end":10207.677,"text":"國會特權組。」我們表示反對。我在這裡,對不起,佔用了多一點的時間,因為這個議案非常的重要。也希望秘書長基於您的專業,基於您的經驗,基於您的背膀,在審查的過程,言所當言,為所當為。這是我們的歷史責任。好,謝謝秘書長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝委員,謝謝周秘書長。現在一先前的宣告,休息五分鐘。"},{"start":10212.817,"end":10236.315,"text":"二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案案件事宜、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案件事宜、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案件事"},{"start":10236.775,"end":10238.658,"text":"之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":10749.424,"end":10754.226,"text":"繼續開會,先處理會議時間,中午不休息,上午會議繼續進行,至討論事項個案的審查。接下來請林委員施明進行詢問。"},{"start":10774.849,"end":10785.453,"text":"謝謝主席也謝謝我們好同事我們林士民林委員有請我們立法院我們周秘書長我請周秘書長周委員好秘書長好有幾個關於議事的部分來就教你也算大家給你尊重的叫做老心肝我"},{"start":10801.004,"end":10826.825,"text":"但是我問你要不要給我贏啊?你沒有抽筋嗎?叫我自己看。我跟你說過之後,人家就跟我說我怎麼落馬呢?說我自己羞辱太多。我覺得我羞辱沒有吧?是啊。我也有發論的。我也做律師王說落馬,聽到那些人的気持是吃肉的你知道嗎?但是啊,我要來就教民主黨就是說,就是說我們立法院裡面,整個議事規則裡面,你認為有沒有什麼叫意義權?"},{"start":10834.509,"end":10861.102,"text":"在議議前裏面大概保留院內發言的時候大概譬如說委員會裏面他對於這一個審查結果有意見的話他就保留有意義就保留院內發言大概法條裏面大概有這個規範在哪個地方其實在我們立法院的職權行使法第68條第三項裏面他有去講各委員會在審查議案也不用院會讀到有爭議的時候主席就可以裁決來進行協商"},{"start":10863.463,"end":10882.498,"text":"這其實也是在廣泛、也是在說意義權啦!會通嘛!對不對!你要看啦!我們拜日啦!我不要讓你太為難啦!我們拜委員會來的審查立法院職權行使法的時候啊!你也要現場啦!那民主黨你可不可以認同當時是不是屬於各個委員會審查議案碰到那天這樣是不是叫作剛才的爭議?"},{"start":10885.083,"end":10892.928,"text":"因此我未變壞,因為委員會的審查與委員會的直接處理,因為我大概是院會的幕僚。我不要害你,國民黨把你趕走啦。吵到那種程度了,當然就是爭議啦,當然就是爭議啦。但是爭議的時候,怎麼樣去解決啊?其實啊,我們議事規範裡面都講得非常清楚啦。你像比如說啊,"},{"start":10909.099,"end":10928.324,"text":"那時候朱先生裁決所有的議案都保留送草也協商。我要來請教你了就是說在我們立法院職權行使法所做的裁決的這種協商的主席是裁決送協商或是送出委員會協商或是說協商是在委員會裡面來協商"},{"start":10930.836,"end":10951.173,"text":"應該要這樣說啦,因為這個剛才專委所提的六十八條第三項你看在第三項裡面有另外的規定在委員會中啦那另外一個狀況當時在設計的時候在第四屆第六會期在當時交下來我研究設計的時候因為我本身有當時考量是"},{"start":10951.934,"end":10975.074,"text":"委員會中心,院會的黨團協商是輔助性的,但是一個接軌,所以要協商的話,應該先開始一定是委員會的召集委員去召集協商。所以這叫做有專業的人,所以我不要為苦而讓你跳,所以大家都很清楚嘛。那協商當然就是在委員會主席,譬如說宗嘉濱委員那其他這邊在主持的時候,大家有意見嗎?"},{"start":10976.355,"end":11000.863,"text":"當然就是要協商啊。要我補充,不是。協商有兩種。一個在委員會開會當中的協商,那是委員會的主席。那當然。那如果這個案已經審查完畢,送到委員會的時候需要協商,那個時候還是委員會的招集委員,不是協商。是嘛。所以我們委員會當場裡面碰到有爭議的時候,本來就可以這個這個這樣來做協商。那你認為當天的主席這樣處理好不好?"},{"start":11001.81,"end":11003.931,"text":"而立法院最不要創下這種惡力就是說我今天特別去提醒就是說我一早我就跑三個委員會"},{"start":11027.168,"end":11029.299,"text":"我們有提案,我們一定要提案說明,讓人聽嘛,說我們為什麼要提案嘛。"},{"start":11032.305,"end":11057.216,"text":"提案稍後,你再看,你如果說我們對法律在做諸條審查的時候法令到底是什麼,大家來表達意見嘛你贊成還是反對,不然你告訴我贊成的人聽聽你反對,覺得你的也有道理看要怎麼加進來,還要怎麼做修正所以法案如果在委員會裡面,我們一直在強調委員會中心主義那如果審到最後就是連提案說明"},{"start":11058.556,"end":11074.483,"text":"不容說明,主條兩種賣,碰到有爭議,也不在委員會裡面做協商。這個是非常不合理的。最近我來套一個最近很紅的一個電影,我希望議長在主條在審查的時候,表達意見的時候,我不用想大廚擲筊啦,跟官聖帝君擲架的時候擲筊,擲筊說我今天可以來做主條討論,你可能比較沒在看這個啦,但是現在網路上很紅。"},{"start":11087.449,"end":11088.991,"text":"所以我要請教秘書長就是說像我們碰到這種狀況碰到這樣的一個狀況在審查過去民進黨在審查我相信最大的爭議的最大的一個政黨之間會產生最大爭議的一個法案就是不當擋產條例"},{"start":11106.73,"end":11124.709,"text":"你去看看,那時候在審的時候,蔣其成、李燕秀、陳超明、王玉敏甚至於前時代力量的委員黃國昌,大家也是都討論啊。討論到最後你都沒有共識以後啊,那你才去動用表決,當然要不要協商。"},{"start":11126.11,"end":11147.656,"text":"包括輸贏,這就是大家的感恩,叫議事定時來,社會自有公斷。但是在禮拜一的時候,大家都沒有機會講,這個就非常非常可惜了。那另外接下來要請教的就是說,我也請我們法務部陳次長可以上來一下,就中你們兩個老先角,這個國會調查權,"},{"start":11150.27,"end":11161.926,"text":"我相信今天在黨的委員一直在提說民進黨2016年有是啊有啊連我都跟顧立雄共同提案我也贊成要國會調查權"},{"start":11164.522,"end":11179.99,"text":"這確實是一個輔助立法委員行使職權監督行政部門的一個很好的一個工具嘛行政部門本來要接受立法院的一個監督但是呢當初就是真的就沒有共識所以只通過了一些國會改革的一個法案像比如說直播"},{"start":11180.65,"end":11185.273,"text":"現在看起來已經是很簡單的事情了但是為什麼說國會要改革是我們要被改革啊我們要去改進啊那如果說又碰到爭議的話我也認為很麻煩像現在這麼多法案裡面我從秘書長你的報告書面報告裡面我也看到了你幾乎每一個"},{"start":11203.386,"end":11227.59,"text":"事項你都講 這都是立法院自己來做決定就好就只有四個事嘛 國會自主嘛但是這個國會自主 它的射程到底會有多遠範圍到哪裡 強制手段要到什麼地步甚至於這個課題到底是只有行政部門 還包括老百姓這個就當然要討論啦 譬如說你還敢這樣嗎?這罐頭都不用討論的 你去問這個不用討論嗎?"},{"start":11230.991,"end":11235.613,"text":"因為你們要合議啊是啊就是說大家要合議什麼叫合議就是要討論嘛沒有討論哪來的合議呢我必須要指出來了就是說我一直非常擔心啦2016年的法案當初就是因為沒有共識也被國民黨批評為這個叫擴權那現在國民黨好像撿到寶貝一樣嘿過去你民進黨有這樣主定嗎全部都把他嚇死了"},{"start":11257.342,"end":11272.141,"text":"這個叫進步我沒有意見但是我再次提醒為什麼請次長上來就是說翁小玲翁委員她留學德國她算是一個法學素養非常豐厚的一個委員但是我為什麼要在這邊提醒呢"},{"start":11272.922,"end":11278.964,"text":"當年你看那個德國在發動國會調查權的時候德國他在阿富汗駐軍一又十萬當年在從阿富汗撤軍的時候國會發動調查權要去調查說當年在撤軍這個程序到底有沒有完備有沒有保護到他們的阿兵哥第二個就是說在調查他們的阿兵哥在撤退的時候到底有去跟人家搶搶到阿富汗那裡的被子有去把女兒被打到嗎"},{"start":11301.11,"end":11310.634,"text":"德國他們國會發動調查權可是他們國會調查權就跟我們現在的憲法法庭解釋一樣他很重要揭示出一個什麼就是跟你講說要發動調查權"},{"start":11315.641,"end":11324.513,"text":"國內發動調查委員幾乎都是基於政治的鬥爭為目的,可是呢,如果涉及到人民的話,你必須要有公義性。你若沒有公義性,三個要調查的就調查,到時你說虛偽的陳述,就三當。"},{"start":11333.973,"end":11341.617,"text":"立法院沒有這麼大的權限啊。憲法23條在講比例原則嘛,你倆都大聲的嘛,對不對。我們在創設一個藐視國會,就變成創設憲法23條的一個例外的一個規定。我擔心的是這個啊。"},{"start":11350.781,"end":11369.396,"text":"委帝國黨內立法黨內人你說要不要救濟當然要有救濟甚至於要不要仿效德國他們所規定的國會調查權裡面連證人連證人民被你調查到傳喚到找到國會裡面來他都會有像我們刑訴訴訟法裡面的規定的拒絕證言權喔"},{"start":11371.397,"end":11397.251,"text":"哪些需不需要?有需要沒需要?我如果今天是法官,一個案子我審,你們要傳喚證人的話,我會跟你說:「欸,次長,你傳那個證人沒有必要,我就裁定把你駁了掉。」現在立法院連這些相關的配套都沒有,這是我很擔心的地方。強制的手段到底會不會過高?甚至於說你那個課題到底要不要加到人民?簡單請那個次長回應一下。"},{"start":11400.092,"end":11422.512,"text":"市長請簡單回應因為時間關係基本上呢重點是立法也要注意到比例原則這四個字啦齁那在比例原則下的話呢相關的作為也應該注意到正當程序前端的保障才能做後端的強制這樣的要配套所以剛才民進黨也提到說合意嘛合意大家要講的好就講那在比例原則合乎正當程序在後面強制的時候是不是過檔"},{"start":11423.513,"end":11448.068,"text":"等等這些做深切施法。那秘書長你認為那個人家德國憲法法庭他們揭示出來的他們要發動國會調整要具備公益性才可以,你認不認同?國會委員會去考量啦,並這個相關的一些原則大概都委員會會把在討論的過程大概會考量。好謝謝,謝謝莊委員、謝謝秘書長、謝謝次長。接下來有請林委員、施銘詢答。"},{"start":11465.873,"end":11465.893,"text":"項目。"},{"start":11473.192,"end":11475.755,"text":"民進黨黨團的修法這一次召委排審的有五個案"},{"start":11489.988,"end":11511.521,"text":"大概可分為四大部分,就是有關國情報告、人事統一權、質詢的規範還有建制、調查權的機制首先我想先對有關質詢規範來就教我們的秘書長我們看這次民進黨團提案陣列《立法院職權行使法第21條第四項》"},{"start":11513.982,"end":11527.419,"text":"就議事處依第一項登記名單擬定質詢順序及時間,立法委員依表定時間進行質詢。表定時間已屆經暢明三次不在場者,視同放棄質詢。"},{"start":11530.764,"end":11538.976,"text":"這部分我是想說這個可能要經主席暢明三次不在場,適同放棄質詢,建議可能你們做這個修正,因為我們原來的議事規則是說經主席,主席兩個字好像漏掉了。"},{"start":11545.706,"end":11569.214,"text":"當然我想這樣的一個修法我想表達的是說這部分也感謝民進黨肯定韓國瑜院長主持院會的公正無私並無沒收他們當時一直主張的說韓院長沒收這個委員的總質詢的權利我想藉由這個條文的一個修正我們看得出來"},{"start":11570.134,"end":11598.884,"text":"其實韓院長當時唱名三次委員不在場其實就是放棄執行權了所以才會有這種情形把它訂得更清楚一點但是把它訂在立法院的執權行使法21條第四項這個部分是不是妥當是不是有重複規定我要救教一下我們的秘書長"},{"start":11603.065,"end":11626.231,"text":"議事規則第29條第一項規定施政方針及施政報告之質詢於每會期集會委員報告日起至開後七日內登記之所以我們的施政報告之後的總質詢它也是採登記制"},{"start":11628.391,"end":11649.837,"text":"那麼在二十九條也規定以登記發言之委員經主席暢明三次人不在場者視為放棄所以其實議事規則已經就以登記發言的委員如果經主席暢明三次人不在場你就視為放棄"},{"start":11651.858,"end":11672.739,"text":"所以我們在這個總諮詢也是用這樣子的一個議事規則的規範請問秘書長你同意嗎要這樣說明啦其實議事規則這部分是因為有提案討論表決所以在暢明三次表決是在討論中啦那我們施政報告的諮詢裡面我們是在每一次的"},{"start":11674.32,"end":11693.106,"text":"總實情一開始主席就會宣告所以當天的情況我們一直也對外有說明是因為主席已經宣告如果你不在場的話就是蔡明山就事為棄權所以這個就已經有用現行的在規範裡面就因為多數都是引用19條"},{"start":11698.228,"end":11719.337,"text":"我沒有特別說明,其實是應該是在我們總執行的在進行期已經有做那個宣告。是,當然民主黨講的沒有錯,我們在這個總執行一開始院長也做這種宣告。當然我們因為今天我們要立這個法嘛,官民黨團要立這個法,所以我就要救教你,其實一是規則,因為院長在宣告也"},{"start":11720.157,"end":11734.364,"text":"一、民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案 案件之一、民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案件之一、民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案件之一、民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案件之一、民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案件之一、民進黨黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案件之一、民進黨黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文"},{"start":11745.43,"end":11766.961,"text":"會不會讓我們感覺到有這個畫蛇添足這樣的一個感覺那我也請民進黨的黨團你們來思考這樣的一個議題所以我就叫秘書長說這樣子議事規則有規定的東西在具立法院職權行使法來訂正相關的規範是不是這樣子的一個規定"},{"start":11768.582,"end":11796.131,"text":"因為你是議事規則的問題,定在職權行使法是不是讓我們感覺說這個體力有不符的一個感覺?所以可以補充一下嗎?因為這一個民進黨團提的這個案倒不是在這個地方啦。它是要固定時間啦。是在固定時間,所以當時黨團協商的時候,我委員也在嘛。所以他說主席在針對這一個裡面是沒有共識嘛。"},{"start":11797.952,"end":11824.138,"text":"所以才要求議事處去研議啦那研議現在大概我們議事處本身也有研議出來一個結果啦但是這裡面就是比較如果照這個條文來裡面就會有面臨到一個狀況就是說雖然有去登記但是如果這個委員他來不及來或是他提早結束那官員就一定要坐在那邊等這個會產生這個情況"},{"start":11827.099,"end":11828.58,"text":"議員呂玉玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":11851.175,"end":11852.436,"text":"委員呂玲等17人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":11875.69,"end":11901.247,"text":"民進黨團可以思考一下並沒有反對只是提出來大家來做一個理性的思辨另外說針對國會調查權的這一個部分我想民進黨是針對調查權他裏面提到45條第二項說前項調查權行使僅於憲法附與立法院職權有重大關聯之範圍內使得為之請問民主黨"},{"start":11905.89,"end":11931.337,"text":"何謂憲法賦予立法院之職權有重大關聯之範圍?」您解釋得出來嗎?我沒辦法做這個說明,因為調查權裡面,因為我們這個地方應該是從那個司法院的大法官會議去解釋3號跟5號來看的。是,是,我了解,我了解。他的引用相關的文字。其實我的意思,"},{"start":11932.762,"end":11957.51,"text":"本來我們憲法63條就賦予我們的立法院立法院的職權那我們的立法院的職權行使法我們每一章也針對我們這個憲法所賦予我們的這個職權我們就職權行使法就分別的把它列定我們的一個權這個行使職權的範圍所以現在在第二項"},{"start":11958.63,"end":11963.655,"text":"談及你能行使調查權範圍僅憲法附以的職權有重大關聯的範圍內。所以這部分所謂重大關聯範圍由誰來定義?我是就叫祕書長,誰來定義?因為這是一個非常不確定的法律概念。"},{"start":11979.051,"end":12003.491,"text":"以後又會產生重大爭議。我說可以調查你說這個跟憲法所賦予立法院的職權沒有重大關聯又會爭吵不休各黨各派又會有自己的意見所以這樣的一個立法把不確定的法律概念定在我們的立法院的職權行使法四十五條第二項正列上去您認為妥當嗎?"},{"start":12004.872,"end":12007.454,"text":"謝謝林思敏委員的質詢。我們接著有請下一位陳俊宇委員質詢。"},{"start":12046.496,"end":12055.335,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們有請秘書長跟我們司法院的陳廳長好謝謝有請秘書長還有廳長請"},{"start":12060.978,"end":12083.812,"text":"陳委員好秘書長好、廳長好首先我先請教我們司法院陳廳長那在上個禮拜啦齁上禮拜士林地院的理性法官那已是因為工作壓力過大而不幸墜樓離世啦齁那一位這麼優秀的法官發聲如此的憾事令社會各界非常的萬喜"},{"start":12084.755,"end":12105.45,"text":"那根據媒體的報導在這個遺憾的事件發生之前那李信法官就曾傳簡訊給他的妻子表示說我很累也曾提到說因為這個太多的這種工作壓力讓他可能不堪負荷"},{"start":12106.584,"end":12122.096,"text":"那顯示法官恐怕是長期處於這種高壓過勞的這種工作的環境之下那像這樣的情況我先請教一下我們這個陳庭長您的工作壓力會很大嗎?"},{"start":12124.855,"end":12127.336,"text":"我只有近兩年是在司法院服務那之前都是在辦審判的工作"},{"start":12157.504,"end":12179.755,"text":"因此可見應該在基層的這種法官那種壓力是不堪負荷的那我想請問就是說針對我們這個理法官的憾事也讓我們再次提醒減輕司法體系的這種負擔以及工作負荷的過重的問題是刻不容緩的"},{"start":12180.95,"end":12202.835,"text":"但其實過勞的這個議題已經存在一段時間了那過去不管是在立法院還是民間都有過許多的討論那尤其近幾年我們也知道爆量的這種詐騙案件幾乎淹沒了整個司法體系不管是這個檢警還是法官都在海量的這種案件中咬牙苦撐"},{"start":12204.255,"end":12218.813,"text":"那我想請教聽長就是司法院對於這種這一次發生的事情我們有沒有進行相關的檢討是的跟委員報告那其實司法院在這個昨天也就是17號有召開過檢討會議那關於這個"},{"start":12223.991,"end":12229.033,"text":"一、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":12251.503,"end":12268.311,"text":"而然後持續來推動防度濫訴等等那都是我們可以立即採取的一些的具體的改善的措施那同時那也希望各界能夠關注這個議題然後投入更多的資源給司法"},{"start":12269.691,"end":12290.142,"text":"給司法部門,那因為我們受制於這個中央政府機關總原額法的限制,我們的原額即將用盡。那我想其實是適量大量的人力投入司法,那對於緩解法官的壓力是有助益的,謝謝。好,我希望我們能夠提出具體能夠解決這個問題的辦法跟規劃。"},{"start":12293.663,"end":12307.168,"text":"讓實際在這個基層從事這些工作的法官能夠感受到這個壓力的減輕。那我想問題還是不斷的惡化當中,所以刻不容緩一定要馬上去做這個事情的解決。"},{"start":12308.308,"end":12324.03,"text":"那不論是人力資源的補充或是判決書類的這個簡化那有好的措施就應該要盡快提出來解救司法官在水深火熱之中的這種工作情況而過勞的問題當然不只是存在法官"},{"start":12324.751,"end":12340.084,"text":"那檢察官也是這部分也請我們法務部是不是也同步積極來檢討和規劃這個再請我們次長協助幫忙並且要深入瞭解第一線司法人員的這個實際情況避免只上談兵"},{"start":12341.138,"end":12360.685,"text":"那另外對於這件事情我們這個許中立院長日前走訪士林地院的時候也提醒法官要注意身心多參加一些戶外的活動那不要整天都綁在辦公室裡面被法官們認為是一番沒有溫度沒有距離的基層遙遠的這種言論但我們也看到"},{"start":12364.373,"end":12381.913,"text":"有臺中地院的公告說讓全院同仁公駕半天去參觀展覽希望能夠放鬆一下心情我想請問司法院對於這部分有沒有相關的指引讓各地的法院都能"},{"start":12384.383,"end":12413.986,"text":"能參照來落實許中立院長的建議,多照顧法官的身心。」有沒有?報告委員,我想這一部分其實大概不需要司法院的指引,目前我們沒有指引,但是其實這都是各法院院長就自動的這樣子來做,就像委員剛才舉例的台中地院,那其實士林地院也有類似的,院長他們法院也有類似的措施,就是鼓勵法官們有半天的工假可以出去"},{"start":12414.597,"end":12416.399,"text":"一、民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":12442.681,"end":12465.485,"text":"的情形甚至在這個未還這個委員會的天花板還有燈條也整組都掉下來那我想請教祕書長在地震這個兩個禮拜後相關的這個災損都已經檢查完了那也修繕完畢了嗎好好聽長您先回座"},{"start":12469.495,"end":12489.667,"text":"報告委員那因為地震發生的時候我們第一時間已經通知廠商那也在那個連假時間的前兩天就已經絕大多數做成修復那就後續有一些小狀況再做一點整理以上報告好都已經在處理了嗎是好那我想請教祕書長就是在4月1號"},{"start":12493.909,"end":12515.789,"text":"事業一號我曾經質詢過,那是在地震前那我針對我們這個國會擴建的相關期程當時這個秘書長回應是說總務處還在研擬當中也會向韓院長報告那在這個地震發生之後那到現在我想請教說秘書長您已經向韓院長報告和討論過這個事情了沒?"},{"start":12518.923,"end":12540.714,"text":"簽卷我上次跟陳委員報告過總務處他研議後才會跟韓院長報告是不是要經過黨團協商成立的一個情形我們現在部長已經在研議在整個過程大概要多久的時間我當時是有跟我提是六個月內"},{"start":12541.975,"end":12542.135,"text":"六個月"},{"start":12557.773,"end":12571.932,"text":"嚴厲的過程也還沒完成,那也還沒跟韓院長報告這件事情嗎?針對這個還沒有跟,院長報告是上次有一個公督門,院長只是我跟他們接見的時候曾經有針對這個跟他報告過一次。"},{"start":12574.715,"end":12596.287,"text":"本席會不斷的追蹤這個國會擴建的議題是希望說在整個國會改革的這個討論當中能夠關注到硬體的這一塊我們不是只有這些條文方面我們硬體方面應該要納入去一併討論除了上述保障的這些意識運作維持這個意識的品質以外"},{"start":12596.827,"end":12612.72,"text":"也是為了要提升進行國會外交史的一個格局甚至目前我們立法院內還有許多的地方都可能還是違建的問題也是要透過我們這個國會的這個擴建或是簽建才有辦法解決應該是這樣子吧"},{"start":12614.341,"end":12638.532,"text":"所以我希望說這個部分秘書長跟我們處長應該要積極來辦理。不要說六個月啦,應該要縮短七成。因為這個已經討論那麼久了,為什麼還要再六個月時間?我相信內部應該都有一個想法了。上一次秘書長您也大概有講,六個點應該也都有一個這個主要的一個想法。所以我希望說應該是要加緊腳步啦。刻不容緩請秘書長跟處長這個盡快辦理。好,以上。"},{"start":12644.858,"end":12649.903,"text":"好謝謝陳委員的質詢謝謝我們有請下一位是審法會委員主席我們有請周秘書長好秘書長請"},{"start":12672.832,"end":12688.97,"text":"鐘秘書長早現在已經午安了鐘秘書長在立法院服務多久我當考試委員之前是38年兩個月現在來了大概有兩個多月"},{"start":12691.504,"end":12706.861,"text":"我自己我1992年那時候我們正好國會全面改選第二屆立法院的時候那時候我就在這邊當助理我大學剛畢業來這邊當助理我印象中那時候"},{"start":12707.682,"end":12709.643,"text":"一、民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":12729.977,"end":12740.594,"text":"已經第十一屆了我們這也第十一屆了嘛齁這個州民黨可以說整個都看到這整個立法院變化的過程事實上所謂的國會改革"},{"start":12742.063,"end":12769.786,"text":"並不是說我們今天開始在國會改革事實上從1992年在第一屆國會那時候萬年國會不用改選那個時候是幾乎是毫無制度了那這個92年之後自從這個立法院定期改選之後這個我們在立法院整個規則幾乎每一屆都在做一些改變跟改革嘛對不對是不是"},{"start":12770.842,"end":12799.001,"text":"應該這樣講,因為在81年的時候是還有改選的82年尤其是第二屆開始全面改選那中間當然有多次的為了立法院的內規在外界所談的就是88年那個無法就第四屆進來的那個無法那其實在政黨輪替以後第四屆的時候又大幅的改變其實在整個過程的整個過程包括我記得那時候1992年"},{"start":12801.002,"end":12806.907,"text":"改選93年你剛講民國八十二年就1993年開始就職對那時候我那時候進來"},{"start":12809.668,"end":12830.855,"text":"我記得那時候根本還沒有什麼草野協商制度法制化都還沒有就純粹都是這樣一步一步這樣子改革過來所以其實我要講的就是這樣子其實我們現在說大張旗鼓說國會改革國會改革法案其實一點都不新鮮因為在這整個從1993年到現在整個過程"},{"start":12835.595,"end":12859.674,"text":"大概我們立法院針對我們運作上面我們大家有發生漢革或者是有爭議之後我們大家就會經過朝野大家共同來解決新的辦法所以我在講說這一次我們大家在這段時間所看到的這些相關的這些國會的立法國會制度的一些改變的立法它其實就是這樣的過程裡面的一環那我看到"},{"start":12861.452,"end":12888.458,"text":"每一個政黨每一個政黨的版本。我們在禮拜一也在這邊上演了一齣民進黨從頭做到尾在旁邊看到尾也上了一齣我個人認為程序上面很有瑕疵的一個審查會我們看到其實國會這次大家所提出來各個黨派所提出來的法案裡面其實都有各種不一樣的面向"},{"start":12889.588,"end":12898.392,"text":"那我比較遺憾的就是說我們看到在禮拜一我們看到的我們所通過的這些其實基本上都是立法基本上都是立法權的擴張"},{"start":12900.149,"end":12926.044,"text":"這是立法院職權的擴張的相關法條。包括要把總統國情報告常態化、質詢化、人事同意權及命令權的追認、總統彈劾的相關質詢,還有質詢的規範要讓立法院可以移送行政官員,立法權可以移送行政權,到讓司法權來裁判。"},{"start":12927.456,"end":12953.234,"text":"這是三權分立的一個新的理論另外還有立法院政府院長選舉甚至還有刑法的藐視國會罪等相關的立法所以我看到這些都是立法權的擴張但其實國會改革的面向由我們民進黨團所提出來這次整套的國會改革的法案其實不只是"},{"start":12955.996,"end":12970.374,"text":"立法院職權行使法這樣子一個部分而已。事實上我們還有再提出一些包括這個強化秘密會議的規範這個也是社會關注的在之前社會非常關注在立法院所召開的秘密會議它到底秘不秘密"},{"start":12971.215,"end":12985.653,"text":"他這個秘密會議的結果他到底到底這個這個我們立法委員自己有沒有辦法保守這個這個保密的義務那另外包括這個強我們跟秘書長可能最有關的我們強化國會的知通知通安全"},{"start":12986.434,"end":12987.255,"text":"之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":13004.568,"end":13025.962,"text":"再來就是強化幕僚單位提升專業能量這些如果我們民進黨這些改革方案能夠這樣照民進黨版本通過我相信未來我們秘書長在立法院整個我們立法院的職能都可以大幅的提升那另外還有這個這個也就是說除了國會改革其實除了國會擴權以外還有一個很重要的變相是國會的自律"},{"start":13027.063,"end":13043.66,"text":"國會的自律就包括我剛剛所講的這個國會自己的這個這個秘密會議規範我們國會的這個這個知通安全的強化更重要的包括我們這個國會自主的這些這些性平反對性平歧視的這些相關的規範那還有這個這個其他"},{"start":13046.022,"end":13072.615,"text":"涉及犯罪若國會議員涉及犯罪之後的這個這個相關司法移送的這樣子的的屬於國會自律面向的部分那這部分我覺得覺得說說在我們這個禮拜一這樣開快車的過程中整個國會改革會被扭曲成是國會自己的擴權就只有看到國會擴權的面向這是我個人是深感遺憾深感遺憾那這個"},{"start":13074.624,"end":13099.885,"text":"這個部分我想要請秘書長來表示目前我們立法院有關這個資通安全的部分我們有做什麼樣的強化因為本來現在資通安全的資安長就是副秘書長民進黨所提的版面我也都拜讀過了在裡面將來要設也是一樣有副秘書長"},{"start":13100.566,"end":13105.607,"text":"之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":13129.773,"end":13143.07,"text":"立法院職權行使法的部分都比較具政治性就是說不同的政黨有不同的看法但是在下個禮拜我們民進黨所提出的這個國會改革的版本這個就真的是針對我們國會國會的自律以及國會這個這個"},{"start":13146.033,"end":13174.334,"text":"專業資安方面的提升。」這個部分我想秘書長就應該要可以嚴所當嚴了就不必像現在在這裡說全部都不必評論了那時候你就要好好的來評論我們有關這些相關的法案這樣好不好我會提一些看法包括法治局預算中心的用聘用還是因為聘用就會涉及到聘用聯盟可能是要轉為要用聘任的方式來"},{"start":13175.034,"end":13181.939,"text":"但是我們有一些看法,我們有一些看法。好,我知道了。好,謝謝秘書長。謝謝周秘書長,謝謝沈委員。接下來有請謝委員、榮介詢答。欸,主席我請閉嘴掉。"},{"start":13204.76,"end":13233.108,"text":"市委員好市長你好這改革啊是大家都很介意大家都很想要做的一件事合理說改革就是要說自己好的嘛賣花要說花紅啊賣茶要說茶香啊對不對啊不是啊讓你們在這裡漏氣啊"},{"start":13234.073,"end":13237.914,"text":"啊看啊,你被這樣互相漏氣,啊不一定會進步啦。誰會說你的1990年你說什麼,什麼人說什麼,誰會說你的1991年你說什麼,什麼人說什麼。本來的心事獨寫啦。事情本來就是時間沒感嘛。啊結果現在在這裡,咕嗅鼻沒味啊,鼻嗅咕臭皮。"},{"start":13262.674,"end":13267.216,"text":"而你們坐在那裡是看得到嗎?看得到嗎?在想不想你們都迷迷糊糊。我個人是這樣說,為什麼大家會提出這個改革的方案?要滿足社會的期待嘛。對不對?過去的七、八年來,就是立法院主謀嚴格。民間說,啊,立法院就不屬於是行政院的立法局啊。"},{"start":13292.451,"end":13304.398,"text":"處處之有白書嘛。那麼,要來面對,今天不是民進黨可以萬年執政,任何政黨都有可能可以執政。行政權的五萬,今天在做生意最好是有事無窮嘛,因為白書有人在喊嘛,有人在呼喊嘛。"},{"start":13322.065,"end":13330.047,"text":"此外剛好國會三黨無過半,不關上執政,這就是一個改革最好的契機啊。結果不是啊,民進黨要幹,國民黨也要幹,大家本來能好多少就要講啊。一味的配方沒辦法,你要去訴科說是怎麼做,今天你國民黨要吃緊急。"},{"start":13349.451,"end":13356.956,"text":"因為行政權的五萬,咱說咱的這寸就好啦。主席講三百,叫三百沒來叫官員在那等,這個衛民處在社會可以容忍嗎?你立法委員今天是沒人在跟你關課捏,所以會逼官員比較沒壓力。但是所有的官員嘛,會上班大家也壓力很大捏,法官也很大捏,檢察官也很大捏,大家都壓力啊。"},{"start":13377.868,"end":13384.491,"text":"結果來到這裡,你說你點點的、命點點的,你沒資訊,還要叫官員坐檔嗎?這個委員處理社會可以了解嗎?這本來就是大家要共同面對嘛。再來,行政權的五萬。今天,立法院今天在國民黨要選的,不是要扣款的,是要補款!過去的七百年,主謀嚴格!"},{"start":13408.456,"end":13410.037,"text":"違反委員做到不尊嚴!不對就不理你啦!我不用跟你講秀威嘛!對不對?詐騙集團今天為什麼會跟民進黨那些人在協助會?這跟民進黨本身無關的,因為他剛才在執政。今天我國民黨執政,這個詐騙集團就來跟國民黨協助會,為什麼?我想要做這個罪名!"},{"start":13434.918,"end":13438.602,"text":"出於社會一般人民的信賴﹑行詐騙執行﹑所以這個詐欺的這麼多就是因為行政權沒得到適度的監督﹑他可以來這裡亂講﹑甚至可以把你委婚這順﹑"},{"start":13455.68,"end":13464.527,"text":"我不用接受你的質問啊!我沒說實話啊!沒關係啊!這個詐騙集團為什麼要向這些人說很好啊!這沒關係啊!這越騙越多啊!也抓我們不中啊!你看看台版的檢普案破罪又破那麼輕了!那麼多檢察官抓那麼多人!以上那麼多、起訴那麼多!我掛暗戀比較認真啊!用到沒那麼多就詐騙了!一雞獨待啊!"},{"start":13485.279,"end":13490.323,"text":"所以這個改革啊,就是說,要不然你扯我,我扯你。真不實在面對嘛。過去,若不是這種的形態,就沒有這個超機能的案嘛。這個超機能,不想跟你講實話,機能對賭賣你也要問?一顆玫瑰褲你也要問?對不對?這個過端的疫苗,"},{"start":13513.7,"end":13519.744,"text":"五、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法第十五條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":13544.36,"end":13549.924,"text":"條文權、條責權都可以討論,它是有必然性的嘛。不去輕鬆說我今天提到條責權,不需要立法院委員大家大到三都選不下,沒那麼大啦。沒那麼大啦。有很多可以給我們規範的啦。你不要接受規範,規範你不會在最好人民也可以用選票給你借財的。"},{"start":13574.966,"end":13589.332,"text":"所以沒有那個就沒有壓力了啦。在這裡是要要求行政、立法、司法、議席之間大家盡量平靜而已啦。三年沒過半天這個機會,總統也已經表達,總統鄧小林剛好很客氣,他也表達他願意來立法院報告。"},{"start":13601.816,"end":13605.882,"text":"這就是可以建立憲情慣例的很好的時間第一"},{"start":13609.107,"end":13632.913,"text":"一文一答、接文接答、通文通答﹐那才是規矩順。黨團合相嘛、政黨合相嘛、政黨合相主連理連。當然我個人的看法啦齁,對元首啊、給他適度的內容,這合理啊。若請問今天做市長我是不會當法院的啦,對嗎?我問你,你問我。"},{"start":13634.926,"end":13638.428,"text":"議員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法第十五條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":13656.397,"end":13661.938,"text":"立法院：沒有那個說法規範：鄉長他若來報告還要求總統來報告：立法院若報告接受這個業務嗎?沒有問題啦!對不對!這很簡單的事情!鄉長作為都可以承受!總統董三林若願意來報告!"},{"start":13679.432,"end":13685.182,"text":"這有什麼可以爭取的?所以三黨這個時候就是應該在建立憲政管理最好的時機,失去這個機會了,對啦。是這次在法院會變成最大的危險。"},{"start":13694.127,"end":13704.171,"text":"我們應該在這般的將來這個三黨無過半,總統好選人若願意表達安捏,立法院的行政庭是可以滿足這個會議的進行,各司法格的進行。所以應該要接受國民黨所提出來的這。那麼民進黨有意見,沒關係,我們來政黨合相的時候,大家充分的溝通。"},{"start":13721.758,"end":13723.68,"text":"謝謝我們謝委員謝謝祕書長接下來有請吳釗偉中線委員詢答麻煩祕書長有請周祕書長"},{"start":13742.062,"end":13765.033,"text":"委員好秘書長好我想請教一下秘書長我先提一下我想國會調查權它的一個理念其實我們在法律上面也可以看到有相類似的理念比如說政府資訊公開法或檔案法這些東西其實它主要實現的就是人民資的權利所以我覺得國會調查權因為國會的這些議員都是"},{"start":13769.855,"end":13788.89,"text":"人民選出來的。他一樣是在實踐人民對於知的一個權利。所以我想請教一下秘書長對於大法官皆是以調查權然後獲取資訊能夠讓國會善盡民意機關的職責那秘書長是否同意憲法賦予立法院的這個職責?"},{"start":13790.111,"end":13790.131,"text":"案。"},{"start":13806.151,"end":13826.001,"text":"錯誤的解讀秘書長的說法。」所以我想說秘書長這邊其實說得非常清楚那我們對於法律的見解我想說我大概的想法跟秘書長也是類似所以那個記者的報導可能有所誤解那我想請教一下那依據我們剛剛所說的那國會制定調查權這是違憲嗎?"},{"start":13828.932,"end":13856.749,"text":"從五八五一路這樣推下因為本來立法院的調查權跟委員報告過五八五號解釋本來是賦予我們這個普世性的權利嘛那在已經很明確的在解釋文裡面寫得很清楚了是 謝謝秘書長好 那我想請教一下那你知不知道為什麼憲法賦予這個國會的這個調查權這個權利我們一直急著要把它法制化秘書長知道原因嗎"},{"start":13858.55,"end":13886.077,"text":"其實我上次也說過因為我們現行的職權行使法本來就不足嘛所以因為當時我88年在處理的時候是只有3號號解釋只有文件調閱那58號號解釋是1993年才有的所以必須要去補強所以國衛的內內規這個職權行使法在補強的時候調壓前這一章裡面本來就需要稍微再修正啦"},{"start":13886.517,"end":13910.606,"text":"我上次也說過我想我們把一個憲法上面的權利我們把它法制化中間有一個很重要的原因就是因為我們要把它的行使的要件把它明文對不對因為我國是成文法國家我們把它明文下來讓政府讓這些立法委員在質詢的時候他有所依詢嘛那另外還有一個就是"},{"start":13911.775,"end":13926.767,"text":"如果你沒有一個法制化的話很容易在運作的時候就造成侵害人民權利甚至洩漏國家機密的風險所以這就是我們為什麼急著把它法制化的一個非常重要的原因"},{"start":13928.666,"end":13948.416,"text":"我來談一下就是說其實最近有很多人有很多委員一直講嘛哇你這個調查權這個什麼出來之後或者是你的對於這個國會國會對於這些受調查者的一些請他來說明或者是一些處罰他說這是老民啊什麼但是我在這邊跟各位報告"},{"start":13949.932,"end":13974.323,"text":"其實三權分立國家他們的國會也常常有很多東西是要去詢問到一般民間機關但是他是有個前提他絕對不是說亂七八糟想叫你來就來他一定是調查的事項是涉及到公共利益而且跟國會的職權有關聯性的時候才會做這件事情所以"},{"start":13975.003,"end":13997.428,"text":"很多時候是被帶風向,很多時候是危言聳聽,跟人民說哇那你家開麵店我就傳你過來國會這邊處罰,沒有這種事情啦。那你說華航,假設華航今天那個飛機沒有保養好,發生一些事故,我們請他來說明,這種跟公共利益有重大關聯性,這個才有可能。"},{"start":13997.768,"end":14012.608,"text":"例如美國國會常常找波音公司去問為什麼沒有人說他們那個叫擾民我想說這個部分我想剛剛把它解釋說明一下這是怎麼回事另外就是我覺得"},{"start":14014.519,"end":14042.998,"text":"當我們在行使這個調查權的時候比如說我的版本以及黨團的版本其實都非常的寫得很清楚就是有關調查權的行使我們是會那個準用到行政程序法以及行事訴訟法其實為什麼我當時在寫法案的時候我會特別要求這個因為我自己本身是很重視程序正義我要求國會在做調查的時候在做懲罰的時候"},{"start":14044.72,"end":14063.195,"text":"不能夠置以妄為,不能擴權,所以一切要依照,要準用相關的程序法,這樣子才能保障人民的權利,也讓人民有救濟的管道。」這就是為什麼我的版本一直堅持說有一些東西要準用相關的程序法,也就是說在"},{"start":14063.916,"end":14067.418,"text":"議員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":14083.627,"end":14085.268,"text":"一、民進黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":14108.226,"end":14124.068,"text":"關於機密外洩的問題,我們剛剛有講到說立法院職權行使的時候也是要保障讓機密不能外洩。你知不知道就是就我們立法院職權行使法還有國家機密保障法都有規範到這個部分。"},{"start":14125.47,"end":14152.182,"text":"例如說4至729號他有提到當立法院進行文件調閱的時候對於包含工商秘密的部分其實立法委員他有進到這個保密的義務這個在729號也寫得非常清楚也就是說729號其實他在你符合法定程序之下進到這些保密義務之下其實你去調閱這些私人的工商秘密這個是合憲的"},{"start":14152.782,"end":14178.336,"text":"我想大家可以去閱讀729號我想729號跟585號我們在這邊多次的攻防但我要跟各位報告法律的閱讀判決判例的閱讀我從學生時代到現在我就知道一個點不能只截一段來看必須整篇把它看完不能只截頭來看尾部看所以上次行政院副秘書長來這裡我為什麼發脾氣因為他在胡說八道"},{"start":14179.376,"end":14207.055,"text":"他亂解485號所以那次我很不高興我認為行政院的高官來這裡不能講那種話你要是說不懂的人來講就算了高官來這裡亂講話帶風向這個我不太能接受這也是國之不信啊走到那個位置的人卻胡說八道這真的不應該尤其行政本來要維持中立他不能玩政治他應該要持平的說如果你今天你依照585號去講我沒有意見但是你不能亂解485號"},{"start":14209.52,"end":14209.741,"text":"那那個"},{"start":14211.345,"end":14238.478,"text":"我想我最後我可能講一個東西也幫大家示意因為今天有直播我示意幾個東西第一個我想柯總召他前幾天有講一句話叫做總統會被抓去關我想第一個我們念過憲法的人一定知道我不是迴憲亂政憲法五十二條非常清楚總統有刑事獲免權"},{"start":14239.298,"end":14248.618,"text":"所以絕對不會發生總統在那邊被問一問抓去關的事情所以不要亂帶風向憲法五十二條再來第二個"},{"start":14250.287,"end":14274.328,"text":"有關我們藐視國會罪,其實這個適用上面也跟總統的關聯性沒有那麼大。比如說我的版本,總統他來國情報告他是基於憲政的秩序,跟質詢行政院的規範不同,跟聽證調查權的規範也不同,所以不會發生那種什麼總統來問一問被抓去關這個事情。"},{"start":14275.329,"end":14293.402,"text":"這崩馬牛不相及啊不能混在一起講所以我認為是這樣啦每一位我上次有講每一位立委先進我在這邊政治之力是最淺的每一位立委先進我都很敬佩每一個立委都是他的家族他的父母眼中的驕傲但是來這裡我認為不能亂帶風向"},{"start":14296.104,"end":14312.034,"text":"今天這個法案這個法律規範即使跟國民黨的邏輯不同我也不敢隨便亂講這是我的堅持所以我對於法律的解釋對於釋制的解釋我不會挑有力的來講我一定是持平看完之後該怎麼說就怎麼說就像"},{"start":14312.674,"end":14316.935,"text":"我對於柯總召說總統被抓去關這個,我也覺得這個是亂帶風向。因為憲法明定總統有刑事獲免權。"},{"start":14338.479,"end":14362.871,"text":"再來我們說的行政院的這些我們對於行政權的這些監督這些聽證調查權跟總統也無關所以不存在總統抓去關這件事情我在這邊要特別說明我一切依法論法任何人都可以挑戰我的想法好那謝謝在這邊謝謝剛剛把這些我對於這個國會改革的一些想法提出來謝謝各位"},{"start":14365.499,"end":14379.729,"text":"好,謝謝吳釗緯的諮詢。我非常認同吳釗緯的說法。我也觀察到您有很多並沒有連署國民黨的提案。那希望在逐條審查的過程你可以捍衛您法律人的專業。那違憲的條文就是不要支持。我支持你。好,我們現在休息。"},{"start":15168.015,"end":15187.337,"text":"好,現在宣布繼續開會那現在有請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員質詢不在有請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員不在有請張家俊委員張家俊委員張家俊委員不在有請鄭振前委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在"},{"start":15187.998,"end":15201.345,"text":"有請謝依鳳委員、謝依鳳委員、謝依鳳委員不在場。有請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在場。有請徐欣盈、徐欣盈、徐欣盈委員不在場。好,有請鐘嘉斌交委諮詢。"},{"start":15208.055,"end":15219.507,"text":"主席﹐在場的委員先進﹐列席求證五千萬首長﹐官員會長﹐公眾夥伴﹐媒體記者女士先生﹐有請我們今天最忙的周秘書長﹐還有第二忙的陳次長﹐"},{"start":15220.336,"end":15222.418,"text":"國會如果審查機制失靈,倉促修法會獻名於罪,而且會造成媒體噤聲,企業屈服。"},{"start":15242.077,"end":15261.086,"text":"我們翁委員版的刑法140之一已經出委員會了。他這裡面說條文內容就這麼多,其他藐視國會之行為處三年以下有其徒刑。請問周秘書長,經過本週一的逐條審查,你認為翁委員版本的其他藐視國會行為是哪些行為?你想得到的?"},{"start":15267.33,"end":15285.417,"text":"那你覺得這樣的一個描述用八個字其他描述國會行為有沒有符合罪行法定原則在一個刑法140之一的條文修法的法案當中用這樣的文字描述有沒有符合這樣的罪行法定原則"},{"start":15286.499,"end":15306.462,"text":"很困難思考一下,次長你覺得呢?依照您在法律上的認知的見解。基本上既處罰明確性言者的話,盡量不要用不確定的法律概念。那這幾個字呢,在目前文字上看起來是不確定的法律概念。好,謝謝我知道次長會答,因為您的報告就是這樣寫。"},{"start":15308.343,"end":15330.229,"text":"那可是這樣的一個條文已經送出委員會了那會有什麼問題呢我們來看一下接下來同樣公務員的版本立法院職權行使法第45條還沒有出委員會喔就是今天要審的喔他說立法院呢經院會決議得設調查委員會委員會決議設調查專案小組要求特定的機關"},{"start":15331.909,"end":15358.43,"text":"法人、人民團體及個人聽證並提供文件資料及檔案。請問一下,秘書長你在看資料還是我問次長好了。這裡的法人有沒有包括公司、學校、醫院?法人的話包括公司法人。那機關有沒有包括獨立機關?包括公平會?都包括在內。人民團體有沒有包括一般的賞鳥協會?"},{"start":15360.712,"end":15365.682,"text":"個人有沒有包含公民記者?包括好所以說"},{"start":15366.892,"end":15394.406,"text":"一旦這個條文在今天大家的意見、傾向要把它完成那它會跟翁委員同樣以作委員會的刑法140之一的版本相扣連只要這兩個條文一起通過未來在我們本國不管你是行政機關還是獨立機關不管你是公司法人、財團法人、社團法人你是醫院、你是學校、你是廟室、你寺廟、你是長鳥協會、你是公民記者你都有義務來"},{"start":15396.568,"end":15408.803,"text":"應立法院要求聽證而聽證的時候你就是接受質詢拒絕提供資料要處三年以下有期徒刑請問秘書長你覺得這兩條這樣子一起看您覺得有問題嗎?"},{"start":15411.84,"end":15431.363,"text":"因為你在調查說要在五八五號他一定有一個調查我只說我沒有說因為五八五號大概太多了條文現在看起來設計這兩個併在一起很可怕我問莊秘書長如果有立委幫婆婆喬貸款不成可以要求來應要來聽證提供資料如果拒絕還要判刑你覺得有這樣的情況會發生嗎"},{"start":15432.932,"end":15460.078,"text":"因為這一個跟莊委員報告他應該不管是院會或委員會他成立調查委員會調查小組他一定是合意的不會他個人的一個因素當然合意立法院我們合意機關都是有一個合意的過程但是我們也看到很多合意的過程結果這樣的極端情況有可能發生會讓貸款銀行不知道如何是好我們往下看"},{"start":15461.701,"end":15488.528,"text":"接下來我們看到這是楊瓊英委員的版本已經出委員會了在本週一所以讓我們保留他說各委員會為了審查閱會交付制議案得依憲法第67條第二項規定舉行公聽會邀請政府人員及社會上有關係的人員來出席陳述證言表示意見或提供相關的資料如果出席人員非有正當理由不得拒絕出席看起來沒什麼對不對"},{"start":15489.668,"end":15502.922,"text":"但是社會上有關係的人員有沒有包括我剛剛說的醫院、學校、媒體、新聞機構、公民記者、廟室負責人還有商鳥協會的代表有沒有"},{"start":15503.973,"end":15531.053,"text":"有關係之人可以報告這些。次長你覺得呢?有關係之人很廣啊有沒有名諜排除?就文字上來講是全部包含在內啦那還規定不得拒絕出席喔那我們來看一下回到翁委員的版本已經出委員會的無故缺席啊要處三年以下的有期徒刑啊無故有沒有正當理由說到無故請問無故缺席跟非有正當理由不得拒絕出席兩個意思一不一樣請問次長"},{"start":15540.613,"end":15558.147,"text":"五、八、五號解釋是說邀請人民可以參加調查是有,有這個權限但是法條設計上我們是建議委員們五、八、五號有說它是可以什麼滑環嘛那滑環是最後手段嗎是啊最後手段嘛那有多少刑責嗎在五、八、五號解釋沒有提到刑責的問題好來秘書長我請教一下"},{"start":15559.082,"end":15585.502,"text":"如果有委員強迫同僚要捐款,這個事情被寫成報導,不管是真是假,那可以傳喚記者出席嗎?如果要調查這個事情,有報紙媒體報導啊,說有立法院啊,有某黨黨團那個大碗要求同僚要捐款,質疑這個報導有問題,那要求聽證,要求調查,那傳喚這個記者來出席,"},{"start":15587.625,"end":15593.785,"text":"你覺得在假設這兩個條文通過配套,請問該記者有拒絕出席的權利嗎?"},{"start":15595.951,"end":15624.275,"text":"記者報導他本來就文到關有做解釋他有我部分他是他有報導他是有保護我們沒有我們就請他來才出席啊不是你來接受調查對有保護他的一個情況大概他他比如舉個例來講記者有報導他有名字吧那認為他這個有他因為本身在585號這一個解釋裡面是調查事項是報導這兩個是不能不不不一次的不一次的概念"},{"start":15625.289,"end":15642.19,"text":"調查事項就要調查有沒有這件事啊有沒有強迫同僚捐款啊請媒體來記者來說明一下你憑什麼寫這個報導啊可不可以拒絕呢拒絕要判三年以下有期徒刑啊秘書長、市長今天本席在這裡很沉重的要做這個話"},{"start":15643.464,"end":15670.239,"text":"其實立法院剛剛說到委員會中心主義在委員會進行類同性質法案的並案審查其目的就是要找出這些法條有沒有因為競合或是勾連所造成對人民權利的侵犯更不要我們從一開始就在說到585號的四字四字585號的要求或限制大家都很清楚但是現在由於星期一的委員會大體討論被剝奪逐條討論被沒收"},{"start":15673.464,"end":15702.571,"text":"其他委員其他政黨的版本包括他們自己同黨的版本也被封殺就會出現這樣的情況我們往下看另外我們再設想一個情況根據呂玉玲委員就是今天還沒有出委員會的版本她的立法院職權行使法第二十八條之四行政院長各部會首長及相關出席立法院會議之政府人員在接獲立法院邀請出席會議時未經會議主席准假有缺席者為藐視國會處一年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":15703.872,"end":15718.107,"text":"請問周秘書長,召委輪值主持會議,天天邀請行政院長出席,不但可以判刑,行政院還能運作嗎?有沒有國外的立法力?包括委員,因為行政院長不到委員會來,"},{"start":15721.065,"end":15743.764,"text":"那其他的部會首長就要囉,那就來每天來開會就不用來不用上班了最後最後因為時間關係我不要拖了最後就是我們在場副委員版本刑法14條之一已經出委員會了對於出席的這些人接受質詢的時候他如果虛位陳述三年以下有提出行請問次長你認為這裡居住的是包括前面說的機關"},{"start":15745.68,"end":15765.391,"text":"公司行號、公司法人、財團法人、學校、社團、醫院還是只限於行政機關?這裡面的主體是什麼?課與義務的主體是誰?對象是誰?如果就這樣條文的寫是包括全部啦。包括人民。但是所以我剛才前面說,之前我想說要正當程序,就是在程序上。好,那我們來看一下齁,同版本,怎麼不見了?"},{"start":15767.179,"end":15795.294,"text":"同版本的第一是一條之二,如果是行政院官員在立法院接受立委總質詢,總質詢,委員會質詢不算,反而是人民只要不來就有三年以下聽證程序,行政院官員要在總質詢的時候須謂不實處一年以下有期徒刑,請問民進黨你覺得這兩個條文對人民的刻以刑責重還是對行政官員刻著的刑責重?"},{"start":15799.79,"end":15827.91,"text":"很明顯嘛,一個三年以下,一個一年以下。次長,三年以下跟一年以下哪個重?是三年以下重。是啊,人民判得重啊,官員罰得少啊。就定是這些條文是要監督政府還是獻名於罪。我們請大家深思。以上謝謝。好,謝謝中召委,也謝謝次長及祕書長。好,接下來我們請翁曉琳委員詢答。不用。"},{"start":15829.358,"end":15830.383,"text":"發給書面接下來請賴氏寶委員詢答"},{"start":15836.049,"end":15860.397,"text":"啊對不起,要賴世保,賴世保委員,賴世保委員不在所以我們所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢答結束那委員諮詢時呢,要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會好,那麼我們因為時間的關係我們先休息,那下午兩點半繼續開會"},{"start":21483.758,"end":21506.63,"text":"繼續開會,現在進行討論事項,那討論事項呢,審查民進黨黨團擬具、「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案等十案。那另外呢,討論法案時未立於審查討論,請主要列席機關的代表一致我們主席台正前方首長席的位置就座。"},{"start":21508.666,"end":21527.837,"text":"我們本案先進行大體討論每人發言時間八分鐘並自主席台前登記現在可以開始登記了大體討論後再進行逐條審查那麼上午有關於法務部報告書面部分已經送至委員會那請各位委員參閱並列入公報記錄"},{"start":21533.677,"end":21536.06,"text":"好,請在場委員先就大體討論發表意見,我們開始進行登記"},{"start":21547.229,"end":21547.67,"text":"等候議員議員議員"},{"start":21581.185,"end":21604.65,"text":"現在大體討論先請登記發言順位第一的柯委員見名請柯總召待會發言的時候我們兩邊的發言台都可以使用請大家就您習慣熟悉的位置"},{"start":21605.834,"end":21629.482,"text":"因為下午我們就是進行大體審查跟主條審查主席、各位委員同仁我認為站在這邊當然比較習慣我比較習慣正面看著副總召、看著國民黨委員早上發生一個插曲因為坐在那裡、站在那裡那黃國昌在我前面講話"},{"start":21631.274,"end":21654.235,"text":"他說大家要準所時間,時間到要停止,結果他也是也拖了一點時間。他說我執行時間針對我,我有一些指證,但是我要回答的時候他卻不在,很可惜。那我在執行的時候我曾經講過,我想就控制時間,不要怕他多嘴,但是我還要講剛才記者問我,"},{"start":21657.492,"end":21684.744,"text":"電視誤報,所以我實行到一半從來看不見,沒有那回事。是因為我得到黃斑,有黃斑的時候,因為黃斑有特徵就是看遠看不清楚,但是看近看很清楚。所以我不想站起來的時候,不想讓人家收賊,所以我會停下來問說時間到了嗎?這是先講。但是我要告訴各位,"},{"start":21685.796,"end":21712.173,"text":"防犯的病人我對防犯沒有錯看也看不清楚但看盡齁看法案是明察秋毫獨居肺炎十五個人版本的肺腺斷層部分一秒就得罩這是我現在自己新年出來因為一副防犯的另外我告訴各位因為我事實上你要去看一下CIA情報員的獨居室"},{"start":21714.597,"end":21736.223,"text":"因為這樣我訓練很獨心術,所以我委員局一個急動、一個笑、一瓶一笑,我黃國昌講話以氣大小、自恃,馬上知道阿表是想要什麼結果,是要給他黑眼睛還是待會要發動偷襲,還是要宣揮同意,這一點我先說明不要傻笑好不好,好,回歸正戰。"},{"start":21738.243,"end":21753.731,"text":"國有改革方案大家都知道我們希望在立法院裡面如果在委員會好好審查過去審查一年多但是有的不能用我們就沒有公司就會處理今天我們還是一樣同樣立場在看待這個事情"},{"start":21754.651,"end":21769.037,"text":"但是我很遺憾我們在最近從立法院二月二十號開議到今天我們看到整個國家的軸線都很傾斜的、都扭曲了這國家在福音旗迴旋戰爭之下、韓國章合作底下迴旋戰爭"},{"start":21770.458,"end":21793.756,"text":"莫此違憲。」莫此違憲不管修憲要修憲成績的東西搞成修法乃至於提特別條例特別法一個人又提了兩兆不勝為大所以這些都是違反違反憲法的所以大家要冷靜一下違憲的任何措施、幾項提案到最後這邊還是違憲"},{"start":21795.39,"end":21821.847,"text":"那今天我在這裡也要當早上有這個吳宗憲委員對我本人提出一些指證我早上在這個地方也講過有關於這次最重要是五八五事件結果二十年來立法院不敢修正我們這次真的面對五八五事件那其他的其實坦白講你這樣衍生出來藐視國會罪等等刑法疑似疑等等都是違憲的"},{"start":21823.188,"end":21851.027,"text":"因為吳鮑思說吳鮑思寫得很清楚,他就說可以處以法反的強制手段,就像法治那樣,不知道怎麼過啦。但是吳宗憲的版本是寫的和王中選是一樣,差不多。但是吳宗憲委員,你不要忘記,你連署官房黨本你都有連署。換句話說你是一個人,幾人挑一種心,對你是哪一個吳宗憲。"},{"start":21852.768,"end":21870.561,"text":"是和國民黨靠攏吳宗憲還是獨立行使職權吳宗憲當然是當問題出現的時候你馬上已經馬上效忠所以這個是我對吳宗憲委員的有點期待以及落差所以吳宗憲委員講說我委員爽聽"},{"start":21876.94,"end":21901.475,"text":"我說趙委員盤等連總統都要抓去關,沒有錯。但是呢我告訴各位,2012年的時候,九一二陣陣的時候,那個人事長這有影響嘛,我告滿一九。我們都知道總統在憲法上保障不受刑事訴求,那一年我告滿一九,黃世民等,包括江玉華,後來最後江玉華。"},{"start":21902.762,"end":21928.661,"text":"那人臺北市地研室檢察長叫...檢察長齁...呃...周...呃...檢察長...蕙玉文給我現在...對不起我差點忘記媽媽名字齁總統不受刑事訴求檢卸後...卸任以後另一行偵辦可不請馬英九卸任以後就起訴了我在懷疑你對上他齁所以我當然知道齁"},{"start":21930.862,"end":21943.129,"text":"這個總統不是除了刑事訴求,但是他總統一將呢?歐小英委員的版本刑法一十一,你們知道明明不是只有國會改革,還有刑法,還有婦人契業刑,也是國會罪。"},{"start":21946.471,"end":21963.457,"text":"而此前的審與稀有的陳述或提供的集結提供資料或藐視國會之前,刑法一時一時刪了以下。當然我都先沒有這樣提,但是我想有連署。"},{"start":21964.793,"end":21987.33,"text":"那問題來的版本也是如此就是說他當中另外就是說國會調查區調查區的所有稀有陳述都是三年以下有續居住刑或一科罰金三十萬這不是代表所有人都可能因為你行使國會這個特殊的權利國會特權主政特殊的權利違憲端正權利是分立的"},{"start":21988.251,"end":22008.949,"text":"檢察官扮演檢察官,法官扮演法官你這樣一下子把它寫出來,人家司法院不知道怎麼回答法務部不知道怎麼回答這不是毀憲亂真嗎?你還寫到行政院長總之有時候有攜尾陳述一年以下並易割法金什麼叫攜尾陳述?"},{"start":22013.911,"end":22025.331,"text":"所以這樣一個法院不寧願信而且脫逸整個法語學以及憲法規定這種版本咱們出了台的嗎?"},{"start":22026.943,"end":22039.17,"text":"然後反執行也有刑責各位今天我們在審查這個時候好不容易20年以後我們開始面對國會調查權的問題請各位不要恣意擴展違憲亂真歷史會幫你們編輸的好不好不要再笑了好謝謝柯總召的發言"},{"start":22055.322,"end":22055.922,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":22079.125,"end":22095.453,"text":"對啊,你們提四十次,我們提一次以後變差異,也不得已啊。羅志祥每次都要點名到我,讓我做一個稍微稍事澄清很簡單。禮拜一我們為什麼提稍微東西?因為你都幫我所有執行嘛。"},{"start":22097.706,"end":22116.277,"text":"這主條也不能這樣講,頂多給你大於討厭,國會委員的語氣,我都給你大於討厭你還怎麼不滿意所以呢,我們是要照程序來,因為你沒有照程序來,因為你要過去,所以當然我們反對,只有三個東西可以為之,那制止你的惡行"},{"start":22117.779,"end":22119.919,"text":"三、委員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":22145.782,"end":22171.021,"text":"三位都要忙處理啊 怎麼主席跑掉了主席怎麼見了 主席跑掉了書面啊 給書面啊 書面啊 提書面啊 怎麼這麼 先書面去講啦要馬上處理啊主席失蹤了總之好 今天要回來啊 忙處理"},{"start":22173.68,"end":22173.88,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":22200.47,"end":22203.933,"text":"三、委員呂玲等16人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條文〉案。"},{"start":22228.117,"end":22228.517,"text":"各位國務黨委員"},{"start":22252.662,"end":22252.822,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":22270.044,"end":22284.793,"text":"總長你可不可以出去把主席找回來主席找回來主席讓我們大家休息一下我們價值是要主婦條討論主婦條審查好好談你們是要把它刪廢掉上次也是一樣"},{"start":22286.174,"end":22300.304,"text":"主席,我們的主席從頭到尾都做到了。所以,這個立法院不是今天才開始。第三位動議我沒有處理。這層議事處理程序的處理,每一個人待會有他的權利。但是呢,從這裡突然出國民黨煩惱之處。你跟韓永利買一些禮物送給臺灣。"},{"start":22729.426,"end":22748.192,"text":"我們今天這司法委員會誕生了一位神盾局局長神盾了我們尊重尊敬他尊敬的神盾局局長一看到三會動議就神盾了這種是不是也是一種主席濫權"},{"start":22757.366,"end":22785.445,"text":"對,然後也沒有宣布說休息時間是多久,然後自己跑去休息所以我們可能應該要發起一個那個譴責主席的案子不能用譴責,要送紀律委員會對,那所以我們要選個代主席出來這樣,我們這邊來現場人數來選一個代主席,我公推我們的柯總召說代主席吧,因為我們現在也不知道那個我們的神盾局局長跑去哪裡了去"},{"start":22786.626,"end":22806.313,"text":"一具立法院議事規則第二十五條會議進行中主席得卓財時間宣告休息這是依照議事規則是在卓財時間必須要明定它是什麼時間為什麼什麼叫卓財你的解釋好像是奇怪真是違憲亂證這何來違憲 你要瞭解那個陳羅志強委員又Cue到我說不出來說不出來"},{"start":22816.06,"end":22822.563,"text":"總召問一下,我們的會議外詢問,我們神盾局局長、宗家兵主席大概要神盾到什麼時候回來?"},{"start":22838.82,"end":22842.881,"text":"委員呂玉玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文．立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":22869.731,"end":22886.764,"text":"國會改革方案,結果國民黨要喊散會,那何許可惜啊?不會啦,你們都喊四十次散會動議,我們喊一次而已。四十次都是合法合憲,一次也不會過分。價值意義完全不一樣,你是阻礙會議進行,你現在還是要阻礙會議進行,不讓我們進行討論嘛。"},{"start":22890.177,"end":22895.419,"text":"你們的省頓局局長不見。 44次幫助會議進行。 44次幫助會議進行。然後省頓局局長不見也是幫助會議進行。總理大廳要來了,叫我跟大家勉勵一番啦。"},{"start":22914.585,"end":22937.109,"text":"二、委員呂玲等17人擬具〈立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文〉案〈立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文〉案〈立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文〉案〈立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文〉案〈立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文〉案〉"},{"start":22944.642,"end":22968.697,"text":"那2012時任北檢檢察長,你應該知道,叫楊志宜。他合互當過司長,司長。他北檢檢察長做了2014,然後他在現在在台高檢,高雄檢,高雄檢,高雄當檢察長。當年他就是這樣,我告白以久。"},{"start":22970.205,"end":22998.939,"text":"兼聽國會,操作政治,讓黃世民的豪洩一氣,違法違憲,捍衛政治體制,終結特務治國。」所以一告的時候,梁昌世議前一張,他真的很厲害,他把他發一張文給我,說總統不受席日訴求,等卸任以後再進行偵辦,就是如此啦。所以我們今天要談的就是說,為什麼歐小英委員的提案,"},{"start":23000.2,"end":23017.935,"text":"刑法一百四十條,你現在你們現在是除了國會改革以外,你引申在秒數國會最區,然後無限候選。可以凡是被執行的人,稀有的陳述,不拒絕提供資料,讓刑法請問這個有沒有違憲。我報事是這樣的嗎?"},{"start":23021.845,"end":23049.816,"text":"可總知道這沒有違憲啦其他國家也都這麼做啦其他國家憲政體制不一樣你講哪一個國家我們有什麼不一樣憲政體制都還沒有憲法然後可以套用美國的嗎套用可以大法會嗎這憲法就洗在那裡好不好我是很不喜歡講這句話你先生本來就是大法官你先生就是大法官所以回家請假你先生就好這樣講我非常不好意思好不好我們從來不會"},{"start":23052.838,"end":23074.505,"text":"當時呢?那如果這樣做主條條文來討論啊,我覺得這樣討論才有意義啊,對不對?中委員,文委員如果你覺得說,那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?那為什麼你們不讓我們主條啊?"},{"start":23078.645,"end":23098.273,"text":"我心無寸我心無寸無弄無弄早上黃國昌講大好班47月9其實我再提一下時任的大好班陳先生大好班就是你先生我對於那個事件我解釋給大家聽"},{"start":23100.939,"end":23117.638,"text":"我為什麼在馬英雄九月二政經的時候九月八號馬英雄自己出來開記者會那是黃士平九月一號那是已經整個關於徵求完畢的案子他拿出來講拿出來講"},{"start":23122.022,"end":23143.338,"text":"那次呢,很抱歉,黃世民犯了什麼?犯了違反通信檢查保障法,犯了個資法,犯了洩密。他把審查中的資料,監聽到的東西拿出來開記者會。所以我告他,這三個,他到法院裡去的時候,他跟我爭辯,他說有,他有什麼?"},{"start":23144.859,"end":23169.648,"text":"操法各位主卻為了事由。」所以我說你這個案子,我告告檢察長,告告審判長。他既然這樣講,待會他自定有罪了。他沒有所謂的操法各位主卻為了事由。就是如此。第二次,整個甄決完畢以後才會發動決議要甄爭。那當然相關人員都不起訴。所以我要調什麼,要已經甄決完畢的"},{"start":23172.593,"end":23194.951,"text":"的資料。當然本來就可以調,但是那時候的大法官,包括陳孫生大法官,他轉個彎怎麼講呢?他說這個當然整體環境可以調,但整體環境調的時候會怕檢察官他整個周圍上面會受到影響,所以就寄給調。就是那時候的大法官,729四字。"},{"start":23196.451,"end":23206.752,"text":"因爲這樣嘛,因爲為事嘛,要調出來的時候,那你問他們所有通行記錄調出來這一項大白,馬英九跟黃世民天天在通電話"},{"start":23208.191,"end":23234.756,"text":"這就是161條條案是吧?而且他是為我掛線他我沒有關係他正常別人今天別人總之讓我報個實好不好報一句話報個實現在那個報告齁我們神頓局局長目前已經神隱二十分鐘我接下來就是每一段時間幫大家報告一下神頓局局長鍾嘉賓神隱二十分鐘"},{"start":23235.916,"end":23255.178,"text":"看到三位動議﹖立刻秒變神盾局局長桃獅夭夭﹖對﹖不見﹖完全不見蛋了﹖二十分鐘了﹖二十分鐘了﹖我們來看看我們神盾局局長可以神盾到什麼時候﹖沒有關係﹖你們開﹖你們40次三位動議﹖我們都幫你處理"},{"start":23257.04,"end":23278.696,"text":"看到上會動議一次立法院審斷局局長,佩服專家兵。看到上會動議立刻夾著尾巴就跑了。各位親民,你們也是大家都如此。你們協議人數多數,不讓進入職位審查。不怕你們版本受到嚴重挑戰,潰退國人。"},{"start":23285.641,"end":23305.556,"text":"現在是法學教育好不好等一下請請那個我們沈柏洋教授來跟你講這個法學教育可以嗎講教室就好不然大教室報告柯總現在休息時間我們就不要發言好不好合格也有事啊休息讓我們耳根清淨合格也有事好不好休息正好你再這樣單個不如像老一台車機當好不好"},{"start":23309.195,"end":23337.117,"text":"我們保證你愈編愈明。那叫主席回來啊。可以啊,我們來唸這個中旗。你們請省政局局長齁,起碼就是。那中主席也沒有比較大方啊。對啊,你們有吃水果,他也沒有請我們吃水果。"},{"start":23340.36,"end":23347.008,"text":"道歉,應該要讓那個總主席請啦,他自己去休息了,然後都沒有顧到我們。這種主席其實真的很不稱職。"},{"start":23369.13,"end":23393.941,"text":"我吃游泳啦,沒來輕鬆啦,該喝的就該喝。這吃民進黨的,給喝看啊。欸,天下沒有排斥午餐啊。你們也請我坐一下,我法學教育一下好不好。那後面的人每一個都快要拍手了,我這個法學教育不錯。憲法教學好不好。"},{"start":23397.082,"end":23416.195,"text":"各位,要面對歷史的一刻啦,逃避不是方法啦。逃避不是方法,這句話說得太好了,這是經典的詮釋啊。主席,我們現在不在位的主席,我們這首都要跟你喊話,逃避不是辦法,出來面對吧。"},{"start":23419.017,"end":23419.137,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":23440.06,"end":23466.011,"text":"我們都一直急著齁讓立法院的立法品質能夠增加所以不斷的趁機會讓法學教育一下好不好不是在那裡滑手機好不好要上台合作一次也可以啊立法品質的前提齁主席要在上面啦主席都不見了主席來你不要上會再跑了啊再跑啊這怎麼 這大家看得很清楚啦司馬莎是新人的傑之啊"},{"start":23468.232,"end":23484.657,"text":"主席就回來給大家看嘛你自己黃鼠狼當久了都不曉得自己長什麼樣子了我們剛剛省委員問了一個非常好的問題啊你看我們現在連會議詢問都不知道問誰了 對不對剛剛那個我們的省委員就會議詢問沒有人可以問啊 對不對"},{"start":23499.486,"end":23503.753,"text":"大法官在那你走錯了你應該去司法院不是來立法院"},{"start":23505.386,"end":23509.528,"text":"老柯我們決定支持你啦 真的"},{"start":23535.919,"end":23537.48,"text":"如果說柯總召願意推薦我我會欣然接受"},{"start":23635.419,"end":23639.567,"text":"這真的是長輩要喝的,乖!長輩都要喝精力糖"},{"start":23677.825,"end":23703.858,"text":"不過那個明天中午有那個白花運動就是大家在盡量支持就法官協會他們在串聯白花沒有就是就是之前士林的那個事情然後大家希望說能夠挺法官所以明天中午12點有一個白花運動對這是法官協會他們在做的對那有能力的話大家就多支持"},{"start":23705.376,"end":23706.298,"text":"各地院新聞有出來"},{"start":23761.175,"end":23761.597,"text":"不好意思。"},{"start":24082.711,"end":24107.601,"text":"好了好了我們的備用主席我們的召委吳宗憲代替一下好了主持節目主持節目對啊不行啦不行啦你如果立法院開天窗你如果說宗教拼字神證局長那吳宗憲就殺弱勢了他這個攤子一下人口少一半等下你一攤我們這個整個司法法制委員會全部滅頂了我看只滅一半而已啦"},{"start":24115.521,"end":24133.826,"text":"總召你兼主席好了啦請上座新海羅牌嗎?可以啦你各自解讀1920年到1922年啦世界上有一個偉大的總統"},{"start":24135.851,"end":24162.561,"text":"就印度總統甘地他兩次1930年做到1934年他在講什麼愛與和平非暴力我們就是不要議會衝突所以才採用這種非暴力愛與和平的手段我希望你們能夠喚醒你們號召你們的良心為什麼今天要如此這是愛與和平非暴力的"},{"start":24163.976,"end":24189.056,"text":"你們這樣抱怨我們就是以者抱怨因為洋中手段包括今天和禮拜一都是阻止人家去執行怕把版本講得太清楚又有人就傻笑請去了解一下甘地為什麼對事業造成重大影響"},{"start":24190.576,"end":24210.766,"text":"讓所有人都非常景仰他他是在那個事情裡面一個領導性的人物因為他倡導著這個說法所以他能夠留名萬世今天我不希望你們說到歷史的賓士"},{"start":24214.403,"end":24222.309,"text":"不讓人家審查法案,尤其是國會改革。這種行為就是描述國會,更應該改革。"},{"start":24250.558,"end":24267.951,"text":"而立法院職權行使法部分條之三及第二十八條之四條文而立法院職權行使法部分條之四條文而立法院職權行使法部分條之四條文"},{"start":24281.314,"end":24292.833,"text":"秘書長,我們是不是之後應該要修立法院議事規則?像這種主席因故不能逝世的時候,我們是不是應該要改選主席?"},{"start":24294.093,"end":24294.253,"text":"因故不能試試。"},{"start":24311.583,"end":24330.558,"text":"法律用語啦!不要說我們的主席應顧不能事事,不太好啦!好不要啦!應事故啦!應事有!總統沒有改變的事由好不好!超過24小時再去派出所報案!現在還不用報案!我看我來演你一個...這個..."},{"start":24332.259,"end":24356.588,"text":"現在才多少?一個小時而已。他現在才失蹤一小時吧。好吧,就讓他繼續失蹤吧。超過二、四小時我們再協助報案好了。這個應該是..."},{"start":24363.766,"end":24370.376,"text":"就是濫用主席的職權然後耽誤這麼多官員的時間"},{"start":24550.002,"end":24575.058,"text":"協詢中委員快回來開會吧。我們的神盾局局長現在不見了哈。協詢一下。不錯啦,送你喝咖啡,你送他一個白牌子。"},{"start":24578.544,"end":24580.368,"text":"三、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":24761.573,"end":24786.327,"text":"董事長你要幹什麼?坐好坐好我講故事給你聽啦我講一個剛才講1920年20世紀的故事那講19世紀的故事給你聽好不好坐好啦各位1963年亞伯拉罕林肯"},{"start":24791.892,"end":24817.297,"text":"因為國家公園、國家墓園上講一段話,請各位要注意。八、七年前我們創設這個國家,這個國家是為了自由、民主、平等。對所有因為南北戰爭、喪失生命的人,我們都應該予以尊重。我希望美國能走向領有民智、民權的國家。"},{"start":24818.553,"end":24841.348,"text":"這是事實上一個非常有名的演講,只有三分鐘而已。請各位去google一下,用英文朗誦好不好?他會不會緊急在心?怎麼講?你去用英文朗誦一下。您肯的一個回答的演講。好不好?1863年了。"},{"start":24846.499,"end":24849.389,"text":"等下我再講20世紀的故事給你聽好不好"},{"start":24897.449,"end":24925.685,"text":"二、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬"},{"start":24931.601,"end":24931.682,"text":"之一條文"},{"start":26315.044,"end":26315.945,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26331.663,"end":26358.134,"text":"對,我們都期待開會我們期待開會國民黨不要動輒就是想要讓主條不討論禮拜一的錯誤今天不能再重蹈覆轍好嗎這有時間擺拍為什麼不認真準備條文呢都準備好了那你們不要提散會動議啊對不對我沒有夭折他啦"},{"start":26387.403,"end":26393.571,"text":"好了有時間搞這種小孩子遊戲要不要認真來討論就不要提散會動議啊我們就來主條討論"},{"start":26395.285,"end":26399.79,"text":"三、委員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":26419.409,"end":26424.833,"text":"民進黨這麼認真意識的民進黨一聽到我們提散會動議立刻宣布休息已經省以一個小時又十三分省以一個小時又十三分所以我們的中加兵委員國民黨的陽謀就是不敢審法案"},{"start":26441.603,"end":26461.989,"text":"我們看清楚你們的計謀我們很擔心你啦摸高一尺道高一丈我們看清楚你們的計謀我們希望你們不要害怕審查好嗎不要害怕審查對羅志強喝口水你也知道講太多話會口渴我剛剛請你的咖啡可以喝一下感謝感謝我們這個無事要很認真準備但是我們宗嘉斌主席先回來開會吧感謝你啊"},{"start":26479.278,"end":26480.041,"text":"誒?真的啊?"},{"start":26571.712,"end":26571.834,"text":"一、民進黨團擬具"},{"start":26627.176,"end":26646.087,"text":"及第二十八條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":26673.759,"end":26675.5,"text":"對、對、對神盾局長就是要帥好不好"},{"start":26685.74,"end":26686.38,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26709.575,"end":26736.953,"text":"之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":26746.761,"end":26771.298,"text":"之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":26780.197,"end":26798.345,"text":"而其次、委員呂玲等17人擬具、「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案。而其次、委員呂玲等17人擬具、「立法院職權行使法第十五條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":26804.496,"end":26822.05,"text":"一、民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案 案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文"},{"start":26838.688,"end":26848.697,"text":"二、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法第十五條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":26865.269,"end":26887.299,"text":"二、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之二條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":26894.248,"end":26920.315,"text":"一、民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案案 案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":26936.344,"end":26955.519,"text":"五點半就自動開會因為今天的議程只到五點半他們也打算拖到五點半"},{"start":26985.475,"end":26993.439,"text":"一、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":27009.225,"end":27032.696,"text":"那請他提供照片我們再重做讓他帥一點總長你代理五分鐘就好了啦好不好總長你讓官員們先回去了不要中嘉賓一個人神盾你搞得好像我們全部都變神盾局的我在這裡帶領大家代導好不好"},{"start":27035.278,"end":27057.588,"text":"至強委員,上帝賦予你智慧,賜予你勇敢,賜予你正義感。你今天不要亂搞,好不好?副分級委員,你也是一樣,上帝正在看著你,上帝給你錢餅,可是你不能亂用。我們一起阿門。副分級委員在聽音樂,他用耳機,聽不到您的開示。"},{"start":27066.683,"end":27072.925,"text":"耳朵聽不見什麼?這個可能可以治療了,沒關係各位,再撐一下,至少到五點半"},{"start":27093.45,"end":27116.935,"text":"這樣的情況你們覺得對你們是好嗎?對鍾嘉斌蠻好的。他跑到去可以去拍那個神盾局的那個電影不錯。對他蠻好的。我剛剛跟你講過甘地的故事啊。不抵抗嘛。愛與和平啊。我們不用國會暴力的。"},{"start":27126.254,"end":27126.374,"text":"應經國會問政典範。"},{"start":27141.629,"end":27148.611,"text":"讓全國人民可以看到一個主席可以這樣濫用他的職權,耽誤大家的時間。"},{"start":27163.023,"end":27168.968,"text":"爛權的是你們國民黨。你們不敢討論依據議事規則二十五條主席之可以因為你們的要求不合理來才是修昔。你們不敢討論不敢逐條。"},{"start":27179.616,"end":27181.817,"text":"國民黨自己的版本就算了。你們為什麼有這樣子的權力要來干預民主進步黨的黨版的條文被審查呢?你們害怕你們的條文被檢視,民進黨不害怕,民進黨的版本我們有充足的信心也期待跟社會對話。"},{"start":27198.346,"end":27203.669,"text":"一、國民黨害怕國民黨版的條文被逐條審查。民進黨今天周四我們不會重蹈覆轍。我們大大方方開大門走大路讓我們的黨版接受社會的檢視。所以為什麼國民黨要其再會動議?你們沒有權利沒有資格。"},{"start":27221.639,"end":27223.822,"text":"來阻擾我們的法案依程序被審查。作為一個國會議員在這裡不敢就條文論條文,不敢逐條審查,不敢實質的去辯論。"},{"start":27237.142,"end":27244.824,"text":"我再次說,汪小林委員您多次要找無私要跟您辯論憲法,我們就在主角角落的,我們就在,那我們就在主,很好啊,太好了,那請,那請汪小林委員,你請你們的國民黨團,等一下不要提散會動議,不要提散會動議,我們要意識可以直接的進行,進行主角討論。"},{"start":27266.111,"end":27270.855,"text":"主條討論在委員會不用這樣私下在講這些嗆這些不要惱羞成怒我們保持尊重主條討論的變化才有意義哦"},{"start":27281.943,"end":27284.806,"text":"主條討論的辯論才有意義哦!你現在自己在那裡不斷地跳槍跳槍跳槍是沒有意義的!請讓主條討論被進行!請讓法案被審查!請讓主條討論可以被進行!依議事規則我們打"},{"start":27305.764,"end":27309.886,"text":"當好一場球賽,請上打手就打球,同手上同手球,好嗎?遵守賽制賽程,不要害怕揮棒落空,沒有關係,不要害怕揮棒落空,沒有關係,好不好?"},{"start":27323.712,"end":27330.874,"text":"討論法案綜合的長譯,這代委員會會改革末時委員會中心主義。星期一吳宗憲、張偉碩主持的議程就是沒有讓委員會中心主義被實踐。"},{"start":27341.937,"end":27345.401,"text":"經過我們的了解同意您就盡致的讓法案每一條都直接打包每一條都直接送協商這就是沒有讓委員會忠心主義被實踐"},{"start":27358.682,"end":27371.965,"text":"你們最喜歡學習的美國制度美國國會的制度委員會中心主義何其重要可是你們踐踏了委員會中心主義你們直接讓條文打包你們直接把條文打包直接把條文打包然後直接交付協商請問輸不起在哪裡啊"},{"start":27385.387,"end":27385.567,"text":"是國民黨好嗎?"},{"start":27403.177,"end":27404.998,"text":"我們既不改造總統來,對時我們既不改造特定的討論嗎?沒有重點!然後再一句!為什麼要加入我們的陣營?"},{"start":27425.234,"end":27428.176,"text":"小藍、小白都是合作無間。合作無間。如果要辯論條文大家都準備叫起綱。國會改革就要叫起綱。就要叫不來。這麼簡單。這麼簡單。這麼簡單。這麼簡單。讓你們承認你們不要提三會動議啊。剛剛羅志強就很快的還沒開始進行。羅志強就趕快上去問三會動議。"},{"start":27453.573,"end":27474.543,"text":"我是四十分之一的民進黨,對不對?我超愛民進黨,我決定要坐到你那邊去了。歡迎歡迎,咖啡都喝了,我旁邊有個位子,歡迎。沒有問題,沒有問題,來我坐過去。歡迎歡迎,沒有問題,沒有問題。這麼喜歡,剛好我跟你上課。我剛好跟你上課,我剛好讓你看看我們2024的版本,我來跟你開示一下。"},{"start":27482.432,"end":27505.869,"text":"他有種就回來阿來開始開示一下我們的2016年的柯總召柯總召2016年這是錯的離譜你不要冒名當柯總召你這個功力差太多了啦格局也差太多了啦格局也差太多了啦馬上就要中嘉賓桃之夭夭了但跟你們格局差很多想逃的人是國民黨"},{"start":27506.79,"end":27514.052,"text":"民進黨40次三會動議,國民黨讓你表決40次,我們都是坦然面對,結果國民黨只要讓保安隊打包,直接打包送交協商,你害怕什麼?我們不歡迎你,我們不歡迎你,我們不歡迎你,好嗎?羅志強,什麼時候這麼愛民進黨,很可惜民進黨不歡迎你好嗎?"},{"start":27534.845,"end":27544.872,"text":"從政者要有良知,要秉持專業,好嗎?您不可以罵2016的民進黨沒有良知,好不好?2016的民進黨很有良知的,我這個不能接受,我這個不能接受,我這個不能接受,我這個不能接受,"},{"start":27557.78,"end":27563.705,"text":"人員都要遵守憲法的精神好嗎在社會沒有共識之下有違憲之餘的條文我們即使是國會多數也不會強行碾壓過關喝咖啡繼續喝不要喝我們的咖啡然後還講這些違逆事實的話這就是虛謂不實之陳述這就是藐視國會啊羅志強"},{"start":27583.562,"end":27590.164,"text":"是今天主席藐視我們政委官員。真的。咖啡好喝就繼續喝吧。咖啡還不夠啦。咖啡還不夠。咖啡喝不夠啦。"},{"start":27618.82,"end":27619.72,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":27643.733,"end":27643.753,"text":"案。"},{"start":30418.753,"end":30423.476,"text":"三點四點沒碰到我沒碰到我沒碰到我"},{"start":30445.277,"end":30453.823,"text":"三、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":30473.592,"end":30497.91,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":30499.514,"end":30504.237,"text":"之三及第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":30552.449,"end":30577.628,"text":"二、委員呂玲等17人擬具、「立法院職權行使法部分條之三及第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":30580.162,"end":30608.736,"text":"之四條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條之五條"},{"start":30633.686,"end":30634.308,"text":"感謝!感謝!"},{"start":30659.002,"end":30669.503,"text":"之四條文,其中一人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文,其中一人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文,其中一人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文,其中一人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文,其中一人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文,其中一人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文,其中一人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文,其中一人擬具:「"},{"start":30746.998,"end":30749.099,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30852.295,"end":30853.156,"text":"二、委員呂玲等17人擬具、「立法院職權行使法部分條之三及第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":30906.928,"end":30922.719,"text":"而其中一、委員呂玲等17人擬具、「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":30959.537,"end":30961.646,"text":"之三及第二十八條之四條文"},{"start":30993.354,"end":31018.041,"text":"二、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案 案 、委員呂玲等17人擬具"},{"start":31037.819,"end":31043.682,"text":"現在應該你來選總裁我?我不要看你這個樣子我喜歡美女大天天被編輯嗎?對啊"},{"start":31057.787,"end":31058.59,"text":"刑署令案例順。"},{"start":31985.498,"end":31998.021,"text":"來我們繼續開會好現在主席來這邊呢有接到兩個動議那麼一個是延長會議時間的動議一個是散會動議延長會議時間的動議呢他的暗由是針對本次會議你請延長會議時間延長是今晚十二時為止"},{"start":32014.844,"end":32040.751,"text":"另外一個三位動議是針對本日議程4月18日剛剛那個延長會議時間的動議是由柯建民委員等六名民進黨級委員所提出包括吳思瑤還有莊瑞雄、沈發慧還有陳委員跟本席另外我們也接到了"},{"start":32043.035,"end":32056.144,"text":"也接到了有傅君琦、總昭等六位委員提出的三位動議,它上面寫的是針對本日4月18日議程建請依立法院議事規則第26條57條規定,建議三位"},{"start":32061.889,"end":32081.628,"text":"那本席要說明一下因為今天呢民進黨這邊提出由本席來安排的五個議案的併案審查我們從一早開始包括接受大家的會議詢問程序發言我們希望讓今天的會議能夠非常的周延"},{"start":32082.714,"end":32107.614,"text":"事實上在這過程當中有多位委員提出對於本週一由輪值召委吳釗偉中線所排的有將包括以國民黨為主的委員一共有十五個提案二十個提案還當中包括民眾黨黨版的提案是關於立法委員職權行使法關於刑法關於"},{"start":32110.026,"end":32126.851,"text":"好像是立法院的這個組織法關於政府院長的選舉辦法呢已經完成審議但是呢未經過表決也未獲通過全案全部保留送我們院會"},{"start":32128.069,"end":32142.067,"text":"那本席基於向有包括國民黨委員在內以及民進黨黨團同樣是針對立法院職權行使法的相關提案修正那麼基於為了讓國會"},{"start":32143.669,"end":32170.426,"text":"的能夠健全有關於立法院的職權行使應該考量到更多方面以不會內部的衝突所以本席利用本週四輪值安排議程的時間將所有可以交給委員審查的提案通通同性質的通通提到這裡來那麼今天上午我們也很清楚的按照這樣的一個"},{"start":32172.591,"end":32194.378,"text":"提案委員說明、機關說明、然後進行詢答。到了下午,我們打算進行大體討論以及後續的逐條審查。我再次強調的,這些提案完全沒有在星期一的委員會當中進行過審查,所以絕對沒有重複審查的問題。"},{"start":32197.557,"end":32217.184,"text":"那麼由於本週一的各項提案也未經表決通過屬於全案保留送院會之前要進行朝野協商所以也沒有議事規則上沒有立法院職權行使法上重複審查的問題因此我們今天是希望能夠有充分的討論後來進行審查"},{"start":32219.165,"end":32232.263,"text":"那麼在下午呢我們進行了這個大體討論後我們進行登記大體討論那麼登記的委員有包括那個沈博洋委員在內的"},{"start":32235.719,"end":32259.046,"text":"時間快到了我們是打算進行我們的大體討論不料在我們柯委員發言之後就有國民黨委員似乎聽到要提出散會動議那麼散會動議其實就是不願意讓本會的大體討論主條討論進行下去那因此這裡面同時也有收到一個延長開會時間的動議"},{"start":32261.047,"end":32272.334,"text":"那麼延長開會時間就是希望說不想參與討論的不想逐條審查的那就請先回那麼願意來參與大體討論逐條審查的我們就繼續留下來不過根據立法院的議事規則"},{"start":32274.537,"end":32300.647,"text":"我們散會動議是優先所以我要先處理散會動議那麼現在依立法院議事規則第三條規定宣告本案採舉手表決現在表決傅坤祺等六人提散會動議不希望我們再繼續我們的大體討論和主條表決現在進行表決採用舉手表決表決前先清點在場出席委員人數"},{"start":32302.622,"end":32325.247,"text":"在場出席委員十二人,現在開始表決,贊成者請舉手。好,六人請放下。對不起,因為在場出席的人不含主席是十一人,對不起。在場不含主席十一人,那剛剛贊成的有六位,那反對者請舉手。"},{"start":32327.281,"end":32341.514,"text":"反對者是五位請放下那現在宣告表決結果表決結果除本席外在場出席委員不安主席十一人贊成者六人反對者五人本案贊成者多數現在散會"},{"start":32347.342,"end":32371.672,"text":"我們覺得很遺憾大家在這裡本來是希望能夠充分討論的但是由於三位動議一時規則要優先處理一處理三位動議就沒得討論了那謝謝大家也辛苦了我們謝謝各位列席的機關首長代表也謝謝我們會長工作人員還有辛苦的媒體記者女士先生大家辛苦了還有在線上關心本案進行的各位關心國事的好朋友謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}