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汽車當然也是有但是汽車這部分目前交通部是還沒有打算改裝登記還沒有開始實施"},{"start":2554.645,"end":2567.16,"text":"還沒有打算喔現在有兩件事情一個是改裝要不要登記這是一件事情但是就環境部這邊來講只要噪音超過標準的不管是機車或者汽車都會開閥這是兩件事情"},{"start":2567.848,"end":2594.463,"text":"不是,就是重點就是說因為你的法規上是講機動車輛嘛它是確實包含汽車嘛但是你現在的執法的重點就在於這個機車沒有包括這個汽車部分我是覺得我可以接受逐步的處理但是說機車量比較多所以暫時不處理汽車齁這個還是就是請你們再思考不是,我現在就放一段影片齁我放一段影片就是請你瞭解一下到底是哪一種車子發出這個噪音齁好,請你播放"},{"start":2610.1,"end":2624.894,"text":"部長,您覺得這是什麼車子?哪一種車型?以我的經驗齁,好像汽車跟機車都會有這種...誒,所以是...都...都有可能...誒,單...單選...誒,因為這個單選經驗...啊?部長?喔?部長,就是汽車啊?汽車啊?"},{"start":2634.503,"end":2659.241,"text":"當然這一題這裡面看起來是汽車但是我的經驗是好像有一種摩托車那種聲音也是加速也是只有你的法規也含那這樣我們是重點在噪音嘛所以就是說對於這種報音車輛不管是來自這個汽車或汽車我這樣博人都一定同意用力抓重重罰所以你剛剛也提到說要加重這個罰則所以即便改裝是合法的但是改裝之後所發出的這個"},{"start":2660.061,"end":2660.421,"text":"我認同事實上"},{"start":2685.359,"end":2703.901,"text":"其實汽車的量不會少於這個機車給陳委員報告我的理解是我們先把造成問題的最大部分的先解決然後接下來在其他的部分那一般來講汽車剛剛所看到你看它一定是在高速公路或者在比較寬敞的道路"},{"start":2704.381,"end":2706.202,"text":"但是現在就對於汽車的部分有沒有這種規劃跟想法呢?"},{"start":2731.975,"end":2748.801,"text":"我覺得我們可以來做 管不管,就是說要不要管 我想跟委員報,我們管是管,就是他只要超標,噪音超標,抓到還是都開單 這個不分機車或汽車 這沒有分 但是我們知道很多源頭就是來自排氣管的改裝嘛 如果你先給他一個檢驗的機制"},{"start":2750.882,"end":2752.384,"text":"是不是可以請交通部來問一下有沒有規劃汽車的部分也要相對應"},{"start":2768.404,"end":2795.822,"text":"呃跟委員報告一下就是說談的一個課題就是排氣管的認證那成如現在就是說先實施汽車的部分源頭要有先認證過的這個排氣管那如果車主要去做替換的話才有合格的產品其實我大概知道原因了因為你們大概覺得說汽車比較容易看到側面嘛那汽車是在底面嘛但是我是覺得不是應該這樣分的這個汽車的部分的話原則上交通部會配合環保署如果說環境部"},{"start":2796.843,"end":2798.984,"text":"請問部長你了解為什麼這個排氣管它要設計成可分段拆卸這個理由你了解嗎?"},{"start":2815.23,"end":2843.828,"text":"我不是那麼清楚為什麼分段嗎?你看左邊是汽車嘛,後面是汽車就有人了解嘛為什麼要這樣設計可分段拆卸就是它有所謂的頭段、中段、尾段它是可以拆卸的嘛就是方便維修啊它是方便就是它整個這個有時候原廠車就原台出廠的時候它的設計就是這樣的那我想讓看首長們看下一張下一張就是所謂的這個目前齁目前因為不一致嘛難"},{"start":2844.908,"end":2873.918,"text":"臺中南投苗栗這個部分他地方的環保局他規定就是受理機車改裝這個合格檢驗的時候他要求把中段跟尾段焊死、碾死然後網路上有很多網友在就是在討論說這個是各地因為你沒有統一標準各地的這個環保局他自己去設定這個標準那我覺得這樣是不對的是不是應該有全國統一的標準來做這件事就環保署環境部來規定然後大家是一致的"},{"start":2874.383,"end":2892.625,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的建議因為我想為什麼會有些縣市會這樣做是因為很多這個機車的車主他經過認證之後他回去以後又把它哪一段又拆掉就如剛剛陳委員講他分段很可能他已經拿到我們的"},{"start":2893.246,"end":2894.748,"text":"你說他後來又再去?"},{"start":2894.748,"end":2916.909,"text":"後來對,還是會造成噪音?不會,還是有很多次他原始這樣,因為他為了方便維持,我們可以理解。最後您談到的那個下一張,剛剛說就是科技嘛,科技除質法。聲音照相設備這個是我們也是跟你剛剛報告的數字是一樣的。那根據部長我唸給您聽,就是說之下是以六都來說台中是13台,那數量最多的是新北36台,是差了3倍。"},{"start":2918.37,"end":2941.51,"text":"那各縣市除了新竹有10台唯一的雙數其他的都是個位數那基隆市最少只有一台其實不夠執法使用那如果說在執法末端這邊要去了解有沒有這個噪音、報音事實上還需要科技執法那請問你們現在有規劃這個預算就是說要幫助鼓勵這個地方的這個地方他們在能夠在執法的時候能夠做得更完整嗎"},{"start":2944.512,"end":2970.61,"text":"給陳委員報告本來是112到116有編的這個1.9億要購買306台那現在因為有這個急迫性已經把執行時程拉到明年變成112到114就會有306那也請各位有在進行中好對對對而且加速希望未來可以好就謝謝就是氣質要一致的管理那焊接的部分也要了解那這個科技執法部分請加強好謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝主席"},{"start":2974.412,"end":2978.637,"text":"謝謝陳昭芝委員接下來請陳金輝委員發言主席各位委員各位官員早安我請部長請薛部長"},{"start":2989.773,"end":3003.231,"text":"部長上禮拜您有提到上禮拜您提到要回去學校教書了嗎?是因為65歲了必須退休在這邊也祝福您可以繼續為我們國家做運英才是我會謝謝"},{"start":3004.813,"end":3033.428,"text":"今天我們來看一下這個噪音是目前我們打到不管是各縣市政府的1955等等都是民怨之首那統計起來呢臺灣有睡眠障礙的比例大概是20%所以這些人半夜一被吵醒就會陷入嚴重的失眠那我們也有看到各縣市政府都加強取締積極的開罰甚至從源頭管理規範機車改裝排氣等等多管齊下"},{"start":3034.068,"end":3056.764,"text":"但是想要問一下因為前瞻計畫的第4期到今年年底就要結束了可是我們現任的國發會主委之前宣布第5期會聚焦在擴大淨零能量還有地熱、氫能等等的反而是這種跟老百姓生活很貼近的議題沒有提到請問環境部對於前瞻計畫第5期預算中積極來處理噪音問題"},{"start":3061.747,"end":3075.787,"text":"這件事情有沒有什麼想法?第5期現在還在規劃因為第10期是執行到今年還有8月份左右那我剛剛也報告過今年我們前瞻計畫跟公共建設大概將近1.9億有剛剛會說買山"},{"start":3082.492,"end":3103.116,"text":"至於第5期當然我發現現在環境部不只是噪音這個議題事實上其他還有淨零科技、資源循環事實上都應該可以爭取更多的前瞻建設跟地方政府來共同合作能夠讓我們的環境事實上是更永續"},{"start":3104.576,"end":3127.249,"text":"因為地方政府7月要編預算了嘛8月要提出預算書所以他們現在也會很緊張畢竟這些科技執法費用非常的高他們也不太可能負擔這個必須要靠中央來幫忙所以我們也希望環境部的態度要出來讓地方政府好好做事謝謝謝謝陳委員給我們的建議"},{"start":3133.792,"end":3154.336,"text":"這是你們環境部自己做的一個小編做出來的宣傳大家要積極的來回收紙的餐具、紙的容器等等的不過我也想問一下部長因為您可能是住在雙北或是新竹住台中您有遇過自己來追垃圾車嗎?"},{"start":3155.656,"end":3178.372,"text":"你自己有追過垃圾嗎?因為我住在那個是社區,社區就放在對,給廠商一起拿去回收嗎?對對對,所以不用我們有接到中南部的民眾跟我們反映說他把這些紙餐具、紙容器回收好了以後呢拿去給垃圾車結果清潔隊是跟他講說噢這個我們不收請你用一般垃圾塞進來就好請問你有聽說這樣子的狀況嗎?"},{"start":3180.433,"end":3203.493,"text":"有 這個我有聽過不過昨天鄭老師世界地球日在大安森林公園有一個活動那慈濟的顏執行長告訴我現在慈濟他們自己有一個技術對於紙餐劑因為紙餐劑為什麼現在在一般來講不回收就是因為它雖然中間是紙的但是它上下都一層次有一個PE圖層對所以要把它先分開現在慈濟他們已經有辦法把那個分開"},{"start":3204.714,"end":3226.461,"text":"所以事實上那個紙都還可以回收所以我也請那個顏執行長把這個技術跟環境部來分享一下我覺得假如這個可行事實上慈濟也在做了那我覺得應該也可以這個環境部來推動我先跟部長報告一下這個問題到底在哪裡民團已經做了一個很清楚的圖示我們來看"},{"start":3227.861,"end":3251.274,"text":"這個紙容器的製造商呢他必須要有合法繳費他才會挹注資源回收基金到末端的處理商但是因為紙容器的製造商他有地下的有短繳費用的所以我們現在的這個基金有短缺嘛因此處理商他就沒有辦法去鼓勵回收商好好的做好回收"},{"start":3252.014,"end":3264.941,"text":"所以你要不要想像一下這個經過因為你剛好講部長自己也是住在公寓大廈所以資源回收車的紙容器回收佔我們多少的百分比"},{"start":3266.882,"end":3283.735,"text":"給陳委員報告齁,你剛剛提到這個問題齁,容金那個現在是15點多%啦齁,那我們基本上現在要做的就是一個沿途管理,事實上我們的昭緯主席也特別關心這一塊,我們現在已經在進行,要來做這個從沿途事實上就要來這個"},{"start":3285.376,"end":3308.965,"text":"對,所以你也發現你們的生產數還有末端的處理數是不是有很大的落差嘛,大概5萬噸左右嘛,所以好那我們來看你的源頭管理做得如何你自己出去可能你有自己帶飲料杯但是這個便當盒啊等等的你有去掃過你上面印的QR code嗎?"},{"start":3310.365,"end":3335.632,"text":"只要沒有QR Code的那個基本上大概就是所謂的這個一般地下工廠所生產的沒有QR Code的是不是對沒有QR Code現在環境部要求只要是合格合法的廠商他們都一定會有一個QR Code那部長你自己有沒有拿來掃掃看我是沒有掃掃看但是我吃的便當我看那個的確都有QR Code那我告訴你掃了以後長什麼樣子"},{"start":3338.166,"end":3350.033,"text":"這個我早上不管是有時候人家會送飲料星巴克或是這個麥當勞冰旋風等等它上面都有一個QR code你們的QR code啊掃出來就是這個樣子欸"},{"start":3353.084,"end":3372.82,"text":"所有的QR Code掃出來是一模一樣就說這個業者是來自循環署登記列管的業者你麻煩部長你去掃掃看你們自己的Code跟農業部做出來的Code農業部做出來的Code你掃下去你會發現他是哪邊生產什麼時候生產還有這一家"},{"start":3373.601,"end":3374.901,"text":"因為你的掃下去沒有任何的差別"},{"start":3398.058,"end":3402.225,"text":"陳委員我是不是可以請我們副署長來說明更詳細一點可能應該有比這個更詳細的資料"},{"start":3406.654,"end":3427.519,"text":"跟委員報告,那這個扣因為有時候我們是顧慮到民眾用餐可能沒有那麼方便,它是少有沒有標示而已但是詳細的廠家生產等等的資料,那個是給我們去查了所以我們在查的時候,最近幾年用這些的方法也查到2億多的短路在追究對,所以你們內部的資料有,只是我們民眾看不到"},{"start":3428.459,"end":3439.171,"text":"但說實在的其實你們也可以去訪問一下他去買便當通常肚子很餓或是買飲料他有東西吃就好了他不會去管這個扣我頂多我還蠻在意農產品我會去管這個農產品是不是從品質優良的廠家提供的"},{"start":3446.519,"end":3460.995,"text":"但是你去買便當的時候你真的不會很在意這個盒子是不是環境部認證過的QR code所以也許這個方法你們要再檢討一下是不是真的可以有效來控制產量跟回收量的落差"},{"start":3461.556,"end":3486.596,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的建議我請我們喜歡署來思考一下QR Code內容是不是應該要更對要更具體一點或是讓他有誘因啊因為你這樣子在懲罰很乖的人很乖的人他合法的廠商他可能會覺得欸人家就是copy複製貼上就可以做的跟我看起來一模一樣民眾掃起來也是一樣他根本也不可能會去檢舉啊是"},{"start":3488.298,"end":3492.765,"text":"最後也想請教一下部長那你沒有掃過QR Code的話你自己有騎過電動機車或是開電動車嗎?"},{"start":3496.897,"end":3500.4,"text":"我坐過電動車啦但是沒有開過電動車買不起因為你們有一個2040運具電動化的這樣子的目標你知道嗎按照目前的進度啦除了108年我們有補助電動機車當時曾經暴增之後呢"},{"start":3518.536,"end":3533.468,"text":"逐年遞減,所以我們如果以每年9萬台、8萬台、7萬台這樣子的速度算下去,你猜還要多久我們才可以運劇電動化?給陳委員報告,基本上我們現在的方向"},{"start":3534.308,"end":3561.153,"text":"整個政策跟交通部應該是鼓勵大眾搭乘公共運輸那早期的確有採取所謂的太舊換新只要你不管是燃油車舊的換新的或者說燃油車換成電動車都鼓勵可是這樣子的話就會造成事實上這些使用機車的人數還是沒有辦法降下來"},{"start":3562.855,"end":3575.892,"text":"我們來看使用機車的成長幅度你好像沒有很具體的做法可以讓使用機車的人降下來因為我們除了108年電車有稍微增長"},{"start":3583.721,"end":3599.736,"text":"110、111、112購買汽油機車的是遠高過購買電動機車的對,那個當然是價錢也是一個因素那另外就是假如說所以現在這個是蠻矛盾的就是當我們鼓勵他即使是機車有燃油車換成電動車那這樣子我們機車的數目還是不會減少"},{"start":3603.939,"end":3632.719,"text":"好最後啦建議一下看一下對您剛提到價錢所以呢僅有不到三成他現在需要置換機車的人他會願意買電動車因為他每年花的錢實在是太多了所以你可能要仔細去想一下如果大家沒有辦法在短期內改變他的生活習慣去搭乘大眾的交通的電動公車等等的你要如何用你的補貼去讓人家有感而他在"},{"start":3633.659,"end":3634.68,"text":"接下來請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":3660.401,"end":3665.352,"text":"請我們的部長還有我們的警政署副署長還有交通部司長李副署長"},{"start":3670.916,"end":3697.649,"text":"好,部長早 早部長,噪音污染大概是長期我們國人最為生活困擾的 是現在大家生活都高壓力然後晚上睡不著又再加上噪音這個議題大概不分我們的城鄉那這幾年當然環境部跟交通部跟警政署確實有非常多的解方可是是不是能達到效果我覺得有待檢驗"},{"start":3698.925,"end":3710.257,"text":"所以先請問一下警政署這邊目前是不是有掌握全國縣市執行環境間聯合稽查的狀況而且請問每週攔查幾次每次從幾點到幾點開始攔查"},{"start":3714.878,"end":3733.204,"text":"我們以112例來講我們聯絡稽查有1826次我們去年整體我們自己在執行當中不管盤查、攔檢的有查後發現這個有改裝的等於要掌握各縣市的狀況那整體的數據"},{"start":3735.336,"end":3737.077,"text":"為什麼這樣子問這是我們辦公室這邊因為拿不到資料所以我們"},{"start":3759.304,"end":3783.275,"text":"去致電了六都的我們的環保局先不看其他的縣市那足以確認當然高雄市是在我們禮拜五下班之前他都沒有辦法提供那都不依那第一個當然桃園市現在目前看起來是最高因為每天執行新北市呢事實上是次高但你看最高至高當然也要問的是這整個人力搭配的狀況是這樣不是只有說"},{"start":3783.655,"end":3809.963,"text":"每天去查或是每週4到5次還要看他查的點到底是多少所以我想問一下請問警政署針對噪音管制執法的頻率強度目前中央是不是有統一的最低執法的頻率就因為環境間的確不是你們啟動可是如果你們不配合的話基本上這效果非常的差那你就要問說那警政署這邊知不知道各地的做法是什麼"},{"start":3811.615,"end":3835.89,"text":"報告委員在原則上有關於這個環保噪音的取締部分我們是屬於一個被動配合的一個機關所以就是環保有找你們才去做環保都沒有找你就沒有去做這是第一個就是說環保他那一邊有排的時候我們一定配合那另外我們自己本身的防治危險駕車的那個勤務的部分那可能會在"},{"start":3837.591,"end":3864.854,"text":"後半夜或是深夜的那個時候我們也會請那個環保...可是中央如果沒有特別去要求的話會不會如果環保找各地的警局去配合的時候通常也不可行因為你這邊大概沒有統一的一些要求的頻率就像幼童車輛車它有一些檢驗在路上攔查的頻率而且有被法規規定所以我想問一下你們中央自己到底有沒有特別去做這樣的配合"},{"start":3866.771,"end":3889.393,"text":"我剛剛的資料裡面 事實上這裡面環境間聯合稽查從110年到上個月總共4097個場次 那告發的次數是7730可是如果你是分散到各縣市的話 不一的話 那狀態就會像現在看到的是桃園最高嘛 然後"},{"start":3890.434,"end":3905.571,"text":"新北事實上是次高嘛可是我們也不知道這個量體的狀態是什麼是不是有因為這些區域裡邊有特別的地點事實上是比較常發生的所以有去做所以比較中央我覺得比較沒有辦法掌握了"},{"start":3907.974,"end":3921.391,"text":"這一點我想我們再來跟這個交通部跟內政部來思考一下三個部會應該要共同因為這件事情不是只有環境部有關聲音取締設備的裝置狀況這一樣也是我們去問"},{"start":3926.22,"end":3953.046,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":3953.186,"end":3960.09,"text":"環境部和各縣市在分配這個聲音照相的這個部分也必須各縣市首長願意去提撥配合款"},{"start":3980.703,"end":4009.549,"text":"要他們不願意那很抱歉可能這個機會就會給其他縣市所以這個可能可是也要知道哪些地方真的是像嚴重度比較高的時候那才是環保單位要著力的所以整個噪音取締的設備跟手段事實上在執行的時候我們還看到一些問題點就是說你的聯合稽查必須要由警方配合所以我為什麼剛剛先問警政署可是各縣市的執行的頻率不太一樣還有移動式的噪音照相"},{"start":4010.489,"end":4038.647,"text":"這個因為環境的條件上蠻嚴苛的所以常常取締成效不彰那固定式的噪音照相呢又一樣地點相同的話大家都會因為這樣子而規避掉那有些就是會希望因為機動式的澄清案所以他會希望移動式的可是主要選擇這個採購的時候所以就想問部長你對於目前你噪音取締的這樣子的執行方式是不是滿意"},{"start":4039.828,"end":4067.265,"text":"有改善的空間因為這個剛剛也才執行一段時間嘛那我們allways一個政策推動開始初期總是可能還會有哪些不足那就透過後續陸陸續續再去把它改善那就煩勞部長交接給下一任部長真的要好好的去做啦因為這對國人事實上是蠻困擾的那目前不只是我們的現行法規管制真的是不夠嚴格因為罰款"},{"start":4068.607,"end":4082.984,"text":"對很多有益違規的人就像每一個月去繳你的大廈管理費的那個管理費一樣因為這個很多人事實上他會去做這樣子應該是明知故犯的狀態所以"},{"start":4084.985,"end":4104.311,"text":"車主尤其是機車你如果是汽車你一定是扣車可是機車的話你是限期改善有些被罰的他就回去改一改然後再去監理站再查驗OK之後他再回來改回來所以這基本上反而讓車行多賺一筆不只罰也罰不怕"},{"start":4105.376,"end":4131.586,"text":"所以根本抓也抓不完抓了等於沒抓所以請問交通部、環境部可不可以針對加重罰則然後針對累犯當場查扣車輛不知道這兩個部會可不可以回答這個因為我個人的感覺是的確這個金額對很多這個特別是在玩玩車族啦齁以及那些高檔車的人齁這個真的是完全沒有影響"},{"start":4133.507,"end":4134.347,"text":"對,你的登記系統,我們現在台灣有一千光講機車"},{"start":4156.874,"end":4167.263,"text":"一千四百五十五萬輛的機車可是現在登記的是一萬四千九百多件然後只有一千我剛看簡報是一千九百五十七件"},{"start":4168.079,"end":4191.339,"text":"裡邊是已經經過登記的好寶寶們都已經去登記可是民眾如果自願去登記的話那改裝的當然經登記就可以上路可是合格的可能還是有問題這個排氣管那改裝尚未經檢驗的不是您的225組的話那民眾去送檢檢驗合格就可以上路可是有些人他根本不會想去啊因為我就是想要這個聲音來"},{"start":4192.5,"end":4210.486,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4210.946,"end":4225.956,"text":"還是麻煩用時間關係請提供一個報告就你未來如何改善經濟因為只是採用這個登記的話我覺得效果不彰所以我認為源頭管制是非常重要的因為透過肩頸間的一個"},{"start":4229.887,"end":4244.522,"text":"攔查跟登記這個制度去管制根本就是不足的源頭管理反而是首先就是設備可是我們對於排氣管的這個設備並沒有明定規定說要去變更的時候做一個嚴厲的採儲"},{"start":4246.94,"end":4248.58,"text":"獲得各項委員會提供各項委員會提供各項委員會提供"},{"start":4273.886,"end":4302.977,"text":"希望針對這一塊甚至消費者角度上來看的話可能他也不知道他改裝竟然會產生噪音所以還是希望是不是可以比照國外一個事實上是對車主提高罰金那美國大概就是紐約現在其他州也開始跟進也就是說大概跟台灣相差罰金相差10倍還有源頭管理應該是改裝的車廠如果他違規那是不是"},{"start":4303.697,"end":4304.518,"text":"接下來請廖惟祥委員發言"},{"start":4351.897,"end":4352.338,"text":"有請部長請學部長"},{"start":4358.817,"end":4385.033,"text":"好 廖委員早 薛部長早部長今天的這個專報的主題是噪音管制跟加速推動排氣管噪音認證但是看到貴部的書面報告跟簡報的資料你們在源頭管理的部分只有提到這個檢測噪音認證合格的有225組排氣管請問這裡面有汽車用的排氣管嗎這裡面應該是以汽車為主啦"},{"start":4385.731,"end":4398.592,"text":"全部都是機車嘛 是所以只有針對改裝機車的排氣管進行認證請問部長但是汽車其實也有改裝排氣管還有排氣閥門也會造成噪音污染為何這份報告裡面沒有"},{"start":4399.983,"end":4428.622,"text":"這個未來我想是下一階段可以去思考剛剛陳委員也特別提到就是說我們現在重點是擺在機車那下一階段應該汽車也應該可以納管但是針對噪音超標的一個處罰的是不分汽機車不要噪音超過那個標準所以你們未來也會趕快加速把這個對汽車的部分好那這個部分提醒你們一下應該也要來做"},{"start":4429.142,"end":4432.289,"text":"好再來部長我們可以看到喔"},{"start":4433.055,"end":4460.184,"text":"在我們環保署108年的時候3月有一個標案叫做機動車輛噪音聯合機查和排氣管認證及管制計劃這300多萬的標案是由一位凱聚科技實業股份有限公司標的那在109年的時候7月份也有另外一個標同樣的標案他是800多萬的那這個部分呢改叫做歐宜科技股份有限公司標的"},{"start":4461.977,"end":4480.472,"text":"好 那我想這個環境部喔 因為去查了一下歷年的這個得標記錄 這兩家公司以前也是環保署跟我們環境部的常客 我相信環境部對這兩家公司應該也不陌生吧我們同年或許熟悉 我個人是不太清楚 是 因為我沒有介入到這個好 那下一頁"},{"start":4482.216,"end":4498.948,"text":"在這個112年的時候這個OE公司也得標了一個就是112年行政院保護署這個環境保護署的大氣環境司的強化噪音管制措施及營建工程噪音改善計劃"},{"start":4500.309,"end":4519.915,"text":"這個算是一個顧問案那它的內容主要是講說掌握縣市的環保局推動聲音照相科技執法情形以及提供技術資源匯整更新各縣市的車輛噪音聲音還有照相科技執法的設置的形式、地點、套數跟成果"},{"start":4520.535,"end":4537.742,"text":"那瞭解本署在這個前瞻計畫移撥各縣市移動式的聲音照相設備的營運情形並篆擬常見的問題與回覆內容供環保局參考還有在營建工程的這個噪音微型感測器的評估應用"},{"start":4538.702,"end":4561.241,"text":"強化源頭管制的策略還有收集國際上至少三個先進國家運用這個噪音微型感測器跟營建工程還有相關室外環境相關的這個噪音監測的案例所以針對民眾陳情這個營建工程的噪音案件進行分析好簡單來講它就是一個類似顧問案那顧問案完之後"},{"start":4562.122,"end":4574.248,"text":"他是不是有建議要採購所以你們在10月的時候這個OE公司又得標了一個112年行政院這個環境保護署的大氣環境司移動式聲音照相科技執法辨識系統採購案是嗎?"},{"start":4577.793,"end":4600.102,"text":"那委員可不可以請我們大氣師張市長來回答因為我這個內容我不是那麼清楚跟委員報告這兩個計畫是性質是不一樣的那聲音照相本身來講我們從110年就開始採購所以跟這個112年這個4月份的這個計畫來講是沒有什麼關聯110年就採購第一批22套那這個112年10月這個是採入第二批採過那個21套"},{"start":4606.824,"end":4634.915,"text":"對,但是很神奇的事情就是這個OE公司在得標的顧問案之後在10月份就是又得標的這個採購案好,不過沒關係下一頁喔OE科技決標了這個金額大概是1800多萬的金額喔可是你們這裡面有說該採購案設備經標檢局檢定合格跟通過儀器的筆測經本署完成測試驗收合格方撥付該套次的尾款"},{"start":4635.655,"end":4635.795,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":4659.178,"end":4683.325,"text":"基本上我們去查了一下這個歐宜公司跟這個凱聚他根本就是同一家公司第一個證據他們共用網站而且他公司設立的地址也相同第二個證據他的董監事都是這個魚性家族相互擔任董監事所以你這樣看起來他是不是同一家公司背後算不算同一批人"},{"start":4684.837,"end":4697.709,"text":"應該是同一個類似集團裡面的公司假如說甚至連網頁也都一起那當然就是同一期但是這個跟前面的構案我不曉得有沒有他就是這個標案就是他採購了這個器材的標案是"},{"start":4700.751,"end":4720.814,"text":"所以政府採購法裡面有施行細則的第38條的第一項第4和第5款政府辦理這個採購的時候簡單來講就是有利益衝突的時候要在我們的採購文件中明文禁止得標廠商自己協助自己的行為請問我們這個標案裡面的合約裡面有沒有寫有沒有明確的載明"},{"start":4723.251,"end":4739.005,"text":"這個產品假如環境部去採購將來驗收是環境部來驗收啦但是剛剛檢測就是檢測公司就是另外一家那你們驗收了這不就是同一家公司自己我不曉得這個案子現在是不是已經就結案了還是怎麼樣"},{"start":4740.083,"end":4758.679,"text":"我請我們市長來跟我們報告一下目前這個驗收的部分還在進行當中所以還沒有驗收還沒有驗收所以那你們知道它是同一家公司自己給自己檢測嗎自己的產品給自己的另外一家公司檢測嗎之前不清楚之間的這個關聯所以我現在提出來你們才清楚"},{"start":4761.184,"end":4782.031,"text":"事實上這種問題我們再來進一步釐清但是我們所了解很多在儀器的製造商他本身那家公司裡面就會有驗證跟分析的這個部門那那個部門假如去這個出去證明說這個產品是合格接下來就看"},{"start":4782.591,"end":4806.499,"text":"好部長那我告訴你因為其實他明明有其他的實驗室喔要不要接受他的認證好我簡單來講這件事情的邏輯就是OE公司他跟這個凱聚公司就是同一間公司那OE提供的儀器筆測報告是由凱聚公司檢測的那這個情況邏輯不就像是少林足球裡面講到的裁判、球證、旁證都是他的人你怎麼跟我鬥這就是球員兼裁判啊"},{"start":4807.299,"end":4828.141,"text":"那根據貴部環境這個研究院的公開資料一氣的比測至少有6家可以做為何這家這個案子就是由凱聚來做這不就是接案驗收一條龍嗎?環境部的陣風處還在嗎?還有功能嗎?還是說裝睡的人叫不醒還是說他根本就不知道被蒙在鼓底或是在眼皮底下讓他過去"},{"start":4829.582,"end":4853.223,"text":"因為如果今天沒有提出來是不是你們完全不知道這件事然後也沒有去做這個檢查是當要委員這樣子假如有任何不法非常歡迎去舉發那這個案子因為剛剛我們張市長講還沒有結案那我不曉得這裡面的一些採測或者關係什麼樣反正就是我們絕不護短假如迴緩"},{"start":4854.949,"end":4882.344,"text":"在違法的地方歡迎去舉發這個是我身為部長的一個態度絕不護短非常清楚很好那我希望貴部盡快的調查如果有任何不法請現在也請檢調來進行調查然後因為這幾年環保署從環保署到環境部的預算其實最大的問題就是委外辦理的經費也是各部會的第一名連立法院的預算中心也都點名過委外經費過高的問題"},{"start":4884.266,"end":4909.907,"text":"所以這代表什麼意思基本上就是環境部把自己的核心業務也都委辦給外部的廠商所以環境部就只能夠任由廠商予取予求像剛剛這個樣子也非常像廠商叫你們開什麼標請問環境部有能力說不嗎現在連驗收的部分則得標廠商也自己找了自己檢測公司你們可能也都被蒙在鼓底直到現在才知道在你們眼皮底下大剌剌的這樣圖利"},{"start":4911.77,"end":4929.08,"text":"這樣子你們都不曉得,是不是這樣案子太多,還是就只是其中一件?事實上,票委員可能也有一些地方大概言過其實啦,因為這個問題去年在預算審查的時候我也認同委員說,環境部的委外比例偏高,那我回去也初步的了解一下,有一些"},{"start":4929.66,"end":4929.9,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4953.622,"end":4968.229,"text":"沒有問題我們會把這個資料如果有需要我們會提供給檢調但是我現在在質詢台上告訴你這件事情就是希望你們也好好的去調查這件事了解可以是好謝謝好謝謝廖委員好謝謝好謝謝廖偉祥委員接下來請王育明委員發言謝謝主席我們是有請薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":4986.501,"end":5015.741,"text":"黃文豪部長好,本席想請教你對於新任的環境部部長人選彭啟明先生他是氣象達人那你認為以他的專業度來擔任環境部的部長他各方面條件是不是最適合的人選還是有比他更適合的人選因為之前傳出來其實不是他包括張皇珍可能是女性或者是其他人就是可能是真的環工背景出身的"},{"start":5017.101,"end":5041.269,"text":"這個王委員對於這個彭準部長的看法我尊重啦但是以我個人的這個看法我覺得他很有這個專業這個特別是在大氣氣象、空氣污染跟國際合作那當然其他領域或許有一些他沒有涉獵他也可以透過他其他的產業的經驗"},{"start":5043.03,"end":5067.484,"text":"以及未來跟我們的部內的主管同仁去慢慢去學習你認為他的專業有沒有超越你在環境相關的專業上面他有沒有超越你因為我們是希望說部長愈換愈專業愈好嘛你認為他們有他的專業是氣象專業我知道啦但是因為目前中央氣象署是隸屬在交通部啦"},{"start":5069.076,"end":5083.946,"text":"但是環境部我們譬如說監測資訊師、我們大氣師事實上也都跟氣象署合作的關係非常密切已經很長久的時間譬如說像今年23月份我們跟NASA好好好"},{"start":5085.207,"end":5099.228,"text":"這個話題我想到此或許部長你也不適宜再對新部長有一些評論不過本席是希望說要帶領環境部環境部其實各部門大家其實都是專業比較不是政治的考量"},{"start":5099.708,"end":5125.648,"text":"所以當然希望這個部長是要專業取勝不是說只要跟準總統關係比較親近他就可以擔任這個位置這個是我們期待的那我當然也謝謝部長您是專業出身大家對你其實也有期待8個月可能其實覺得太短了一點這個應該是讓你如果有更多的時間可以把你的相關的專業跟長才發揮得更淋漓盡致才對那進到今天的這個主題"},{"start":5127.689,"end":5156.271,"text":"部長你是台中出來的你在台中的時候你有沒有這個半夜睡覺的時候被這個腦仁的機車、汽車噪音吵醒過有有對不對正好住在大馬路旁邊很腦仁對不對所以的確是所以我很認同這個要取締這個是民怨之首但是要取締我們就要來看怎麼有效的取締事實上這個噪音案件已經飆增56%那你如果都是要靠環境監"},{"start":5157.552,"end":5178.164,"text":"要動用基層的環保局的人警察人員三更半夜10點到凌晨6點在那邊站崗這個叫做勞師動作真的是累死人了這個恐怕機察人員也坐不久就會過勞了所以本席覺得最有效的方式應該我們透過科技執法"},{"start":5179.344,"end":5205.189,"text":"認同這科技執法就是透過這個照相跟聲音的部分就可以直接取締開發那這個是最有效的但是這個圖表這個部長我希望這個您在離任之前這件事情你要全力支持這一個科技執法可以提升執法的量能也可以減少人力但是目前全國的設備全國210套固定109套移動101套"},{"start":5207.95,"end":5224.396,"text":"真的太少了你看看單市、台中市喔台中市的人口即將邁入285萬比台北市要多但是目前我看到一個是少一個是分布不均啊你光看六都的分配台中市13部"},{"start":5225.117,"end":5243.398,"text":"臺北市23部新北市36部那臺中市的人口還比臺北市多那為什麼會有這種落差我不知道環境部你在補助上面你是按照人口數復原的大小還是機車數量在補助上面有沒有一個什麼樣的標準因為我看完這個圖表"},{"start":5244.739,"end":5271.836,"text":"老師說我不知道標準在哪裡給委員報告因為剛開始才210部的確有一點分配不均那我會責成環境部我們同仁再來檢討但是更重要是說既然大家假如認同科技執法是最有效而且不會勞師動眾那我們也很期待委員能夠將來幫忙環境部我一定大力支持但是你們編太少"},{"start":5273.377,"end":5282.841,"text":"我現在要告訴部長的就是說你現在114年的預算1.9億才要96部分配到二十幾個306部啦你是要增設96還是306?306到明年底因為你們的語意有點不清楚"},{"start":5289.744,"end":5317.458,"text":"本來是112到116編了1.9億要買306那我們現在把他時間縮短到114早兩年明年就可以增加306是增加306步是是 那就會把這個數目盡量把它那我問你臺中市政府有新聞給你們他要50步你們在未來明年的這306步他們想要的數量這樣達得到嗎"},{"start":5318.799,"end":5338.35,"text":"我想我們同仁他們應該有一些計算公式不過我想這個王委員這一點我們將來特別留意好不好我希望的就是說我今天也不是只是幫台中市爭取是這一個問題很惱人我去年也擔任副市長您也是台中出身那台中問題很嚴重我知道像桃園其實也很嚴重"},{"start":5339.691,"end":5360.556,"text":"新北京很嚴重大家都很嚴重那現在既然環境部要編組我希望你們要聽見地方的聲音地方需要的量我們就一次應該把它編組因為明年的預算還沒有要審那如果你現在部裡面編的還不夠其實環境部各樣的預算很多針對民怨之首我覺得環境部如果用力的去做大家會很有感"},{"start":5361.016,"end":5381.414,"text":"而且會很感謝部長您這個雖然上任不到一年但是如果這個是您可以回去好好督導環境部在520之前讓大家把這個預算編組也讓各地方政府感受到說這個中央環境部很重視大家也不要讓我們的地方的這些環保局的人員過老的話我覺得這是一個很大的這個政績"},{"start":5382.935,"end":5403.99,"text":"好不好,我們全力來支持,那你要督促部門來把這件事情做好好,謝謝那另外一個就是我們的那個燃油機車數量居高不下的問題這個空污我們機動的污染源這個管制在這個燃油機車這個就佔一個非常大的比例,那你看這個圖表"},{"start":5404.87,"end":5411.674,"text":"我們每一年我們的燃油機車數量還在成長已經來到1384萬那雖然我們的電動機車有在成長那成長的幅度坦白講並不算太高那所以在這個部分今天交通部也有來這個交通部我們的林司長林福山司長我覺得這件事情也不是只有這個環境部的責任因為這個主管"},{"start":5430.945,"end":5452.12,"text":"主管這個燃油機車這個其實是交通部那怎麼樣是不是交通部認證資源也很多啊跟環境部討論用一個更有效的這個政策我們來有效的引導讓電動機車的增加是有效去汰換燃油機車而不是兩個數字都增加目前我看起來這個就是民眾好像"},{"start":5453.676,"end":5454.477,"text":"在這個議題上面怎麼樣有效的引導透過你們的政策讓大家"},{"start":5482.874,"end":5503.68,"text":"願意去換電動機車的比例再更提高不要再繼續購買燃油車 這個交通部有沒有什麼想法?這個部分跟委員報告一下就是說運氣電動化裡面剛剛提到包括電動大客車包括電動對 這部分做得很好包括電動機車我覺得公車做得很好但機車做得不好那現在就是說在2040"},{"start":5505.06,"end":5528.125,"text":"那這個電動小客車跟電動汽車我們原則上就是希望達到市售比百分之百的部分那目前是在這個過程當中那剛剛委員所提到的部分的話就是針對這個電動小客車還有電動汽車的部分的話目前交通部跟經濟部還有環保署我們三個部會會通力來這個合作那目前是設定每年每年都有這個市售比的一個這個達到的一個這個目標你們的標準是什麼"},{"start":5530.906,"end":5556.586,"text":"目前的標準大概就是說各有分年目標但是整體的部分就是說希望到2040那這個市售比新車的部分全部都是電動好 這個我提醒市長跟部長2040是設一個遠程的沒錯但你要達到這個遠程你必須每一年的分年短期的跟中期的你也要有一定的目標你如果過程沒有那個結果是達不到的好不好"},{"start":5556.906,"end":5557.026,"text":"好,謝謝王媛"},{"start":5578.564,"end":5587.649,"text":"謝謝王玉明委員現在先做宣告等一下在黃秀芳委員質詢結束休息10分鐘好那現在請盧憲一委員發言主持人請問部長請薛部長好盧恩早好早那我們先看一下噪音所造成對身體的影響大概我們現在的容許的"},{"start":5608.171,"end":5608.892,"text":"對身體的長期影響"},{"start":5623.581,"end":5645.742,"text":"你說對健康的對健康當然是希望在綠色的區域啊是那因為以前我們大概都想說如果是你要提高聲量來講話的話大概那個背景大概就是80分貝是那現在大概越來越嚴格希望能夠設定常態在53或54這裡大概有一個基礎的了解第二個就是下來"},{"start":5647.55,"end":5655.569,"text":"現在大家都知道說噪音是最高的一個所謂的公害那不知道有沒有去我們鄉下住宿過"},{"start":5657.045,"end":5680.719,"text":"我們部長如果我們在山上做生活的話大概6點會叫你起床的是村長的廣播村長的廣播村長廣播他會先放一段音樂讓大家知道說村長我要講話了好那結果呢現在不是村長廣播叫醒我們大概5點多他們就那些騎正機的就經過我們相間的道路所以現在是"},{"start":5681.331,"end":5696.473,"text":"重機車的噪音叫醒我們的村民那怎麼樣取締都沒有用因為那個時間點不會有公務人員上班那你用取締的話取締的話根本就無人到場也無人舉證也無人去蒐證那上上"},{"start":5697.234,"end":5719.771,"text":"現在剛剛都前幾位委員都在講我們的那些檢測的設備根本就不夠,你們說114年才會大概全省300多件那商上根本更不用講有這個設備,我們連分配這件事情也都搞不太清楚,那樣的一個設備我們連看都沒有看過那你說在商上旅遊地區的話,你要怎麼來監測或者說防止這樣的一個噪音的惡化"},{"start":5721.041,"end":5747.612,"text":"在山上基本上還是要靠人力跟捲舉因為然後這種噪音的檢測說真的為什麼我們現在要科技執法最主要是它是有一個非常短時間的那種現象它就呼嘯而過啊對呼嘯而過事實上你就它假如一個一個部落大概一到兩公里的距離它一下子就過去了所以那個的確是一個挑戰所以我在想說你們在做一個規劃的話山上或者是旅遊地區應該這個噪音的規範要更嚴格"},{"start":5750.434,"end":5750.556,"text":"可以嗎?"},{"start":5752.016,"end":5781.154,"text":"我們山上特別是國家公園還是什麼應該是有一個特別區域的噪音管制因為無論多少人在提也沒有看到有人在取締或者說他們因此受罰所以造成在山上生活的那些老人家大家都知道噪音的影響對老人家可能就會引起失眠啦或者是一些認知上面的問題可以體會對 那我覺得啦應該要放一定的比例在山上來防止這樣的一個惡化好不好"},{"start":5781.434,"end":5808.836,"text":"好,我們來思考盧文也可以給我們建議在哪些地方可能要特別來加速那現在我們針對靜音噪音就是我們也沒有辦法說而來量測或者說一個具體的數據讓大家能夠生活上能夠比較安靜那通常在國外是說10點以後就不要洗衣服了那在台灣有這樣的一個規定嗎台灣譬如說我們都知道參加很多活動基本上10點以後就"},{"start":5810.554,"end":5835.7,"text":"有沒有一個強制的規範這個部分強制的規範活動的部分可能這個我比較不太清楚不曉得內政部他們我覺得現在的近鄰噪音是造成很多人的生活上的困擾因為每一個人的上班時間不一樣有的人上夜班結果有的人是回來的時候是要補眠的結果造成鄰居都在一些混亂的一個情況我給盧文報告我們噪音科技執法它是"},{"start":5836.3,"end":5861.105,"text":"沒有時間限制24小時都有在監測你舉報他以後就過來測嗎?沒有沒有那個科技指法事實上就前天後都隨時有記錄他的整個聲音的音波那同時還有攝影機針對哪一步測他的結構事實上是在我們的簡報裡面有一張圖還蠻複雜的一個一套設備那我希望針對靜零噪音這邊可以多做努力好不好"},{"start":5861.886,"end":5881.826,"text":"好,OK好,那現在就是關於我在想重機的一個罰則我覺得太少了我看看你們的報告裡面大概那個罰金大概都3000塊、3600塊這樣的一個數值那如果說一部重機大概都50萬以上甚至到百萬了按這個罰金對他來講根本就不痛不癢對,我認同是不是"},{"start":5883.408,"end":5899.364,"text":"我覺得我們應該在思考其他除了這個金錢之外是不是還要上課或者做哪些更可以殺雞儆猴的效果大概有幾個方向,我們放最後一張好,來,如人建議"},{"start":5901.274,"end":5927.055,"text":"大概就是說從它這個一些我們WHO的一些那個規範當然有來源的、有路徑的、有一些基礎設施的甚至是一些硬體設備最後就是你剛才講的行為的那我們希望在行為上面的教育比如說大部分使用這些政績的不是高射精地位的人可能在學校生活上面可能要多一點教育"},{"start":5927.495,"end":5928.376,"text":"我認同這種想法"},{"start":5949.696,"end":5950.156,"text":"謝謝盧憲伊委員的發言"},{"start":5977.148,"end":5990.294,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉委員發言謝謝主席,我請部長好,蘇元昭"},{"start":5995.916,"end":6013.036,"text":"市長,恭喜喔,脫離苦海啦感謝,不會啦,別說這樣,我學習很多這個,你我愛人是牛肉腸你我愛人也是大掌缸來這邊,正常人都會變得不正常不會不會,是不是很太客氣了"},{"start":6013.536,"end":6016.897,"text":"今天大家都一直在 圍著噪音在走 讓部長見識見識 來"},{"start":6055.047,"end":6055.407,"text":"三、二、一"},{"start":6078,"end":6096.908,"text":"這個台灣這個是一個很棒的行業137點似乎你還要再上來看車子看車子看車子這個都沒掛牌 沒有掛牌"},{"start":6108.667,"end":6113.592,"text":"還在噴火 還在噴火 還在烤 烤汁部長 你看了這個 你覺得怎麼樣我看了是很興奮欸你看 這個 這個排氣管 一支排氣管都要十幾萬"},{"start":6131.892,"end":6159.879,"text":"我要這裡另列的看法台灣這個改裝的行業非常的很棒喔我們做的材料還有外銷還賺了不少錢所以年輕人他沒掛牌啊你要怎麼換但是唯一不好就是他在室內在室內測試空氣不好你看都是在室內車子也是那車子最多他就掛臨時牌一年繳個二三十萬他還爽"},{"start":6162.026,"end":6178.34,"text":"林氏牌你如果沒辦法開檔啊對不對?對不對?阿姨這可能是這群人大概都在玩車的阿在他們自己的場域嘛所以這個要怎麼引導啦不要剛剛在講一直進阿我這裡有一個建議齁這個大鵬灣國際賽車場現在閒避很慢的要怎麼引導讓他去那邊去那邊"},{"start":6187.365,"end":6210.16,"text":"為什麼呢?這個大鵬灣國際賽車場是我在第8屆立委的時候我是促成之一的主力之一那那個時候是希望F1去那邊後來因為長度不夠所以變成F2而已那現在因為大鵬灣飆出去東方集團解約了重財了現在要再找新的合約但是這個賽車場就"},{"start":6212.982,"end":6234.258,"text":"丟在那邊是蠻可惜的我們是不是把這個產業你看那年輕人看到那個就爽啊他們就是要玩這個那為什麼不把他引導到這裡第二我們稅收也增加然後讓他們有地方去去去花樣一下然後車子也可以都可以摩托車也可以"},{"start":6235.683,"end":6236.023,"text":"所以蘇文"},{"start":6251.389,"end":6275.712,"text":"其實你的觀念很好 我覺得這種才是既然我們禁止不了那就應該是引導在特定的場域讓這群人可以去發揮也符合他的興趣應該是這樣又不會影響到別人應該是用引導來取代這個禁止的這個是可以思考的方式張斌那個賽車場也是也沒有達到F1"},{"start":6276.932,"end":6286.398,"text":"所以這個都是F1以下的所以我們要把它弄因為這個長度不夠啦所以如果能夠達到F1的話當然是要把它弄成F1"},{"start":6287.546,"end":6295.128,"text":"所以剛剛看到這個是另外一個角度這是一個產業從另外一個角度來思考不是妖魔鬼怪沒那麼嚴重啦但是他們到路上去那飆車就是不對那會在路上飆車就因為他沒有場地嘛所以你本來你要引導所以"},{"start":6308.319,"end":6308.339,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":6336.775,"end":6365.054,"text":"我們現在的聯合機場你剛剛講了什麼什麼要警察跟環保的因為警察不能去取締噪音嘛所以一定要跟警察跟環保就發生一個事情啊你看你們噪音給人家花了3000、6000這麼多少當然還是要喊說喊殺喊打最好花到一萬、兩萬我沒見但是呢你交通對這邊用交通條例43條那前面是用第8條噪音的11條噪音的"},{"start":6368.096,"end":6393.253,"text":"警察開一張單環保開一張單行政罰則可以一事二罰嗎?它只是一個噪音而已捏部長我想假如一罪大概不能二罰啦就看他那個行為是屬於哪一個當然站在這個人民的權利就讓他選擇他要接受兩個裡面哪一個我個人的看法"},{"start":6395.589,"end":6411.818,"text":"這感覺給人家吊罩吊6個月捏你知道嗎?有這樣幹的嗎?所以我今天講的都是用另外一個角度來看事情我們當部長就要講官話回到學校當教授就要講實話"},{"start":6414.383,"end":6434.217,"text":"沒有啦,我都講實話我沒有在講官話河山廠的廠長退休前三天五天還在跟我吵架他說你有缺電沒有缺電結果他退休之後兩天我去拜訪他我請他當我的核能顧問他說缺電缺得一塌糊塗我說你神經病啊"},{"start":6434.417,"end":6436.058,"text":"最近要增加到300多套"},{"start":6464.428,"end":6465.069,"text":"對,306套,會再增加"},{"start":6474.056,"end":6501.625,"text":"可能我回去再了解我們分配的一個原則因為有時候大家各縣市也比較互相比較來比較去當然假如說真的落差很大可以稍微反映一下我相信環境部在做這個分配應該有他一定的原則包括縣市政府的配合度願意不願意來配合款這個也相關因為現在數量都還很少所以數量很少的時候在那裡比較說哪裡多哪裡少可能"},{"start":6504.146,"end":6508.968,"text":"我們來爭取更多的設備最後一個問題最後一個問題就是電動車現在都沒有聲音啦電動車我看沒什麼噪音會不會太安靜了會不會發生車禍有點吵吵的不習慣"},{"start":6527.654,"end":6538.663,"text":"市長現在這電動車它很多感測器啦其實你看我們包括Tesla還是什麼你在高速公路跑它旁邊有車載它會有聲音跟反應啦所以也是有這個我覺得車這個車上它會設置沒有這是它開車的人它旁邊一大堆sensor"},{"start":6554.677,"end":6570.705,"text":"但是外面的人：比如說騎摩托車的人騎電動車一直騎過去,你也不知道會發生什麼事所以我們的噪音你說70以上不行,80以上不行剛剛盧委員有講大概70、80那些範圍那如果電動車的噪音是0那還得了"},{"start":6576.848,"end":6580.711,"text":"電動車的部分在這個國際安全法規裡面有要求他最基本的一個這個警示音啊國內的法規跟聯合國跟歐盟的法規都一樣"},{"start":6606.988,"end":6628.639,"text":"我在西部提供給委員資料,但是要求一個警示音。警示的音量。好,謝謝。好,謝謝蘇文。好,謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言。下一位我們請王信煌委員發言。謝謝主席,我們請部長。請部長。"},{"start":6634.712,"end":6647.4,"text":"華為,你好部長,我看你今天好像很高興是因為心情好像特別好不會啦,平常也都內心都非常淡定"},{"start":6650.282,"end":6650.382,"text":"OK﹖"},{"start":6667.301,"end":6684.459,"text":"可能很多機車主很喜歡在那邊飆車那尤其是在深夜的時候或清晨的時候其實那個聲音真的都非常的大那我們也時常請地方的環保局就是要去測這個噪音的聲音"},{"start":6685.901,"end":6705.679,"text":"我們當然也希望就是說我們有這一套的這個科技執法那是不是可以裝在最需要的地方所以我不知道說你們現在有200預計是200多部嘛那你們的標準是就是說地方政府跟你們申請那你們是預計要裝在哪裡你們有一個標準嗎"},{"start":6705.999,"end":6731.112,"text":"事實上跟黃委員報告我們基本上是補助地方的環保局那像這種反應的話理論上應該是地方政府、地方環保局他們去評估根據民眾的反應說哪一個路段經常都有這些飆車管還是噪音比較高那地方環保局在那個地方去裝飾我們不會環境部所以是有地方政府自己去評估"},{"start":6733.333,"end":6744.201,"text":"那你們有一個標準就是說要什麼樣的這個程度或者是就是說那個車輛多少才可以裝嗎?有這樣的一個規定嗎?我們現在這個構想就是因為數量比較有限所以可能會讓它比較朝向移動式的這邊放幾個月然後換個地方換個地方那這樣把這個設備的效果能夠加大"},{"start":6758.712,"end":6773.619,"text":"那至於說地點我們會再跟環保局這邊再談一下因為噪音的陳情大概有兩種種類一種就是在比方上下班的時候那個很多人很多車的時候很吵這是一種另外一種是比較安靜的地方偶爾很吵那就吵得受不了"},{"start":6773.999,"end":6795.408,"text":"所以這兩種類型我想我們跟環保局在談的時候請他們一起考慮進來好,那我們當然希望就是說剛剛很多委員就講尤其山上或者是在平常它就是很安靜的地方那突然間這一條路又直又好騎所以重機就很喜歡在那邊飆車所以我覺得這個也是一個重點"},{"start":6796.929,"end":6818.408,"text":"我們未來是不是可以請地方的環保局,類似這樣的一個地方是不是可以就是加強就是科技執法這樣子是,不過跟黃文報告我們210套裡面有固定的109套移動101套差不多1比1左右固定跟移動說真的都有它的優缺點你固定"},{"start":6819.368,"end":6826.813,"text":"但是移動的話就變成你可能要人那人半夜的時候可能他就沒有辦法去執行所以移動跟固定好像都有一些"},{"start":6840.851,"end":6866.591,"text":"有缺點當然假如多數量夠多的話就不會是問題那數量不多那就要去衡量這兩個謝謝那部長接下來請教就是說我們現在有很多汽車或者是機車其實它都是檢驗合格的那如果說像未來我們這種科技執法進行之後那也有少部分可能它原本就是檢驗合格那"},{"start":6867.412,"end":6875.947,"text":"透過科技執法他也有可能被罰我不知道說你們有做這樣的一個統計到目前為止這樣子的數量是有多少"},{"start":6876.84,"end":6896.01,"text":"所以它原本就是一個合格的就是說它的這個排氣管是領有環境部認證的那個但是呢它有可能被滑那被滑的原因純粹是因為它的噪音還是超過這個那個標準那這個原因當然可能是"},{"start":6898.711,"end":6918.217,"text":"這個車主自己又把哪一個消音器還是什麼拿掉了那當然也可能說他使用某一段時間然後老舊的那個排氣管就是已經失去它消音的效果就被罰通常是這樣或者的話假如說是新買的結果又突然被罰我相信車主絕對會去告"},{"start":6919.137,"end":6945.176,"text":"會去申訴啦他被罰他一定會申訴所以理論上是比較不會有所謂的冤枉的情況來話那就是部長講的可能就是使用一段時間或是自己本身自己再去做一個對有些會把消音器還是什麼拿掉甚至是現在剛剛另外一個委員不是有提到這個分段式新聞有人搞不好就把其中一段拆掉換成新聞也有可能啦"},{"start":6946.356,"end":6964.666,"text":"那部長我想請教就是說我們要這個檢測這個噪音的話可能就是警察的部分他是沒辦法直接開單嘛有的他是直接拍照或是有人反應的話他可能到現場可能拍個照那也許就請他再到"},{"start":6965.134,"end":6986.312,"text":"在合格檢驗的地方再去檢驗那像這樣子的話我想請教就是說類似這個狀況就是譬如說去拍照完之後請他到合格的地方再去做檢驗的話這樣的合格的這個機率有多少譬如說我們可能認為說他可能這個噪音超標"},{"start":6987.512,"end":7010.83,"text":"其實請這個相關單位來拍照完之後那他又去做檢查檢查完之後是合格的這種比例到底是有多高?有做這樣的一個統計嗎?待會請張師長來回答比例我這邊再稍微先回答一下環境部對於假如他的排氣管是沒有經過環境部認證那從明年開始"},{"start":7011.85,"end":7024.577,"text":"今年是有一年的一個緩衝期明年開始假如使用沒有經過環境部認可的排氣管也要被開花然後即使合格的排氣管"},{"start":7025.802,"end":7051.556,"text":"噪音量超過也要太晚然後接下來請我們張市長來回答剛剛的比例的問題目前畫面上這個案子來講應該是桃園在執行那個淨桃專案的一些這個是直接到修車廠、機車行去拍照然後再請他到那個可能再去做檢驗我覺得"},{"start":7053.662,"end":7065.145,"text":"這個真的是還蠻奇怪的我們的環保人員你去看這個機車行然後看他有沒有營業登記這個也不是環保局該做的事啊"},{"start":7065.751,"end":7072.276,"text":"所以應該我們環境部這邊跟地方政府應該要有一套標準如果說你們要到那個這個機車行或是你們在外面去坐這個機車的話你們應該有一套標準然後讓地方"},{"start":7086.528,"end":7099.923,"text":"的環保局可以有依循的一個方式好我跟黃委員報告齁環境部定期齁會跟地方環保局針對不同的業務會去做一個業務的這個交流跟檢討的會議"},{"start":7101.525,"end":7121.273,"text":"那這個議題既然黃委員也特別提到我請張司長在下一次環境部跟地方環保局同仁在做業務交流溝通的時候也把這個案例拿出來讓各地方大概就是大家有一致的標準不要造成擾民的一個動作"},{"start":7122.153,"end":7149.47,"text":"那我希望就是說環境部你應該是定一個標準那另外就是說你們在路邊可能這個都是地方政府在執行在地方在路邊執行這個噪音或者是那個排氣的這個部分那其實我覺得他們的車輛就隨便在馬路旁邊就直接停下來就我覺得這個也不對所以我覺得你們應該也要一個標準就是說中央這個環境部"},{"start":7150.791,"end":7166.051,"text":"跟地方政府應該要有一個類似我們如果要檢測的話那你這個車子要放在哪裡不是說馬路隨便你就停下來然後就請人家停下來然後做一檢測我覺得這樣也不對而且這個也會很危險"},{"start":7168.137,"end":7184.213,"text":"我們來檢討一下就是說這種移動式的檢測設備是要在什麼地方來擺設會比較好也不要造成民眾包括交通上面的一個困擾跟阻礙這一點我們來檢討一下那這個機場車直接這樣子這樣也是合法嗎"},{"start":7189.951,"end":7213.18,"text":"我們對那個聲音照相的設置有一定的規範這我想我們找環保局再檢討一下因為可能各環保局執行的方式我可不可以請一下那個交通部就是有關這個車輛做檢測這稽查車那他做稽查的時候他的器具就直接擦在這樣子其實這樣是合法的嗎?"},{"start":7214.581,"end":7229.445,"text":"跟委員報告一下車輛規格分成兩個部分如果說涉及是這個長久固定在車輛的話就會涉及到這個車輛的這個規格變更 那個要到監理機關去做變更那這輛機車的部分應該是屬於短暫時用附掛的一個方式 這個是沒有關係 這個部分的話"},{"start":7235.526,"end":7258.619,"text":"這樣子這個照理講它這個是一個作為環境前面應該有相關引導的部分那如果是引導的話那是一個等於說是說保護啦這個如果說像這個環境間在做聯絡清查的話前面應該會有警察在引導那實質內容會是這個環保人員跟監理機關的人員在座位我想說這個可以更細部一點可以做得更好一點"},{"start":7258.899,"end":7284.849,"text":"好,所以我在這邊請我們環境部針對地方政府你們要去執行稽查的話第一個你車輛的擺的地方我覺得安全應該是安全安全為考量第二個就是說你們要到這個機車行或者是這個我覺得你們也要有一個標準啊應該要有一個標準讓地方的環保局可以有一個依循好不好好,謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝"},{"start":7292.931,"end":7295.633,"text":"謝謝黃旭安委員的發言那現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":7902.52,"end":7905.742,"text":"好,現在繼續開會請圖全級委員發言好,謝謝主席再麻煩請我們薛部長請薛部長好,圖恩好"},{"start":7930.78,"end":7945.4,"text":"謝謝徐部長今天也針對我們噪音管制的問題我們了解世界衛生組織他針對住宅區戶外他平均的音量是以55分貝來做建議的標準"},{"start":7947.222,"end":7967.261,"text":"所以經過我們調查的顯示75到80分貝會讓人感覺吵雜不舒適那50到55分貝以下我們會感覺比較舒適對不對那針對這一部分環境部有沒有針對住宅區的音量設計類似的這些標準"},{"start":7970.389,"end":7972.61,"text":"所以我們針對各個區塊都有設一些噪音管制的標準嘛"},{"start":7998.936,"end":8021.259,"text":"我可以讓大家瞭解一下因為我們有看這個統計從2021年到2023年我們看從2021年開始桃園龜山、基隆、新北樹林、新北淡水、臺北萬華、高雄這兩年的時間就發生了因為噪音而殺人的事件"},{"start":8022.2,"end":8042.327,"text":"所以這個幾個共同點據我們了解幾乎都是在集合式住宅或者社區那針對這些部分不知道我們環境部有沒有針對這些社區噪音造成的這些影響有沒有做過這些研究有沒有提出一些因應的辦法"},{"start":8043.733,"end":8064.549,"text":"給圖文報告這種社區這個鄰里之間的一些爭執事實上可能是警察單位來在負責大概是環境部很難會因為鄰居比如說包括樓上唱卡拉OK放聲音很大還是怎麼樣他們通常應該是會向警政單位檢舉"},{"start":8068.252,"end":8096.347,"text":"今天會提出這個就是因為說希望我們環境部能夠重視這個噪音所影響的問題也希望對於我們管委會的功能其實很重要也希望我們環境部結合我們內政部還有衛福部希望能夠針對這些部分做一些研究希望說能夠從我們各部會之間能夠提出一些方法盡量讓這些悲劇不要這樣子發生"},{"start":8096.667,"end":8114.358,"text":"我認同圖文的建議這個應該是真的要跨部位對我希望說做一些研究是不是在這之前能夠提出一些因應的方法一些改善措施希望能夠超前部署不要讓這些悲劇一再的發生圖文這個建議非常正面非常好我認同"},{"start":8114.938,"end":8140.331,"text":"那針對噪音的部分其實我們知道噪音其實最大宗應該是車輛的噪音那從去年開始桃園市長張三正上來以後有推出一個淨桃專案因為桃園市針對這個車輛噪音這個民眾反映很多年反映給很多的單位都一直沒有辦法解決造成民眾很大的困擾後來我們發現推這個淨桃專案之後"},{"start":8143.793,"end":8169.104,"text":"從去年6月份開始他設了稽查點設了50處然後這整個陳情案件就明顯下降了14%那是不是我們環境部對這個淨桃專案有做一些了解是的我們環境部補助的桃園市有27部的這個噪音的這個檢測的這個設備所以各位看到的這一部應該"},{"start":8169.924,"end":8174.068,"text":"對,其實我們後來研究其實他這個淨濤專案他要歸功在這個聲音跟照相的科技執法因為以前稽查的"},{"start":8193.447,"end":8221.778,"text":"困難度在於說他要配合警察局環保局監理站等各單位設這個臨檢點聯合稽查才有辦法取締所以造成他的難度很高後來發現這個聲音照相科技執法之後發現這個成效很好那是不是針對這一部分我們環境部行政院好像針對這一部分好像有提出預算對不對是給圖文報告原本是從112到116編列"},{"start":8223.318,"end":8249.531,"text":"這裡面講的1.9億購買306套啦那因為現在大家需求非常這個殷切我們已經把時間縮短到明年底就來完成這個請購的306套給地方政府那未來事實上剛剛也很多委員非常贊成也非常支持我們所以我們希望說115接下來再有一個3年或4年計畫來加速"},{"start":8251.692,"end":8253.514,"text":"說這個306套好像單就臺中市好像就拿走了50套"},{"start":8267.685,"end":8282.322,"text":"所以是不是針對這個預算的部分他們的申請,台中市申請他申請還沒有拿排氣管所以其實重點在於說大家都覺得這個科技執法這個部分成效非常好"},{"start":8282.782,"end":8303.364,"text":"所以各縣市都希望能夠增加這個科技執法的設備來嚇阻這個車輛所造成的噪音的問題那所以凸顯這一塊希望針對這一塊的預算我相信很多委員都會支持那也希望說能夠把我們這個車輛的噪音做一個很好的改善"},{"start":8304.105,"end":8326.669,"text":"我們會積極來努力,爭取更多預算來投入到噪音的這個科技執法好,那其實除了車輛噪音之外,像我們桃園市飛機所影響這個交通噪音因為桃園市有我們全台灣最大的國際機場那所以它的航空噪音也是全國最嚴重的地方"},{"start":8327.149,"end":8327.169,"text":"因為這個..."},{"start":8354.085,"end":8363.123,"text":"民航的部分可能是交通部的權責範圍是不是可以請交通部來回答"},{"start":8369.795,"end":8387.14,"text":"我今天報告我這邊是公共運輸室是針對車輛的部分、航空的部分好沒關係那針對我們環境部我們噪音防治法規定它這個防治區兩年就要檢討一次可是2021年已經檢討一次正常2023年就要檢討那是不是2024年我們有這個規劃嗎?"},{"start":8393.181,"end":8408.112,"text":"我覺得我們應該是定期要來檢討,看看有哪些地方不足當然委員只要有更好的一些建議或想法像桃園它是屬於航空城,所以的確有一個特殊的需要"},{"start":8409.113,"end":8435.976,"text":"因為之前當然可能疫情的關係啦那現在慢慢疫情已經趨緩那從之前飛機的架次又從22.5萬現在又恢復到31萬可是它全盛時期是52萬我們現在認為第三跑道再增設下去我們這飛機的架次一定會更多是不是針對這個噪音防制有可能會擴大影響到更多的民眾所以"},{"start":8437.577,"end":8461.526,"text":"針對這個噪音防制希望能夠再重新檢討讓我們的民眾能夠分配到他應該有的噪音防制回饋金那在這邊也跟部長這邊討論一下就是因為針對我們噪音防制我們的計收方式從之前應該是最大起飛的重量還有我們的起飛的音量現在比利時也有針對"},{"start":8462.546,"end":8477.574,"text":"非基金的部分也納入新生肖的關稅制度那是不是也針對非基金這一部分是不是也可以納入這噪音防治這個回饋金的部分去做這個計收的方式"},{"start":8480.275,"end":8505.893,"text":"這個我想當然我們會請交通部來考量但是我個人覺得可能這個應該他會是考慮產生的噪音包括能源的效率等等其他因素至於機靈有時候我跟圖文分享一下經驗我們在二月初到三月初不是跟美國NASA做中南部的這個空氣品質三度空間的那個測試嗎"},{"start":8508.214,"end":8533.673,"text":"那美國那一架飛機是54年的DC-8的那個機型54年結果它有辦法在我們的跑道裡面大概是10來公尺就低飛然後去蒐集我們整個中南部包括台南機場、花蓮機場的空氣品質所以我個人的感覺是機零有時候也很難去當作一個標準因為裡面的可能發動機還是什麼都會更新"},{"start":8534.133,"end":8550.042,"text":"那針對這部份也希望說針對噪音防制規定能夠讓這個受影響的居民能夠得到他們應有的回饋我認同我認同好感謝謝謝部長謝謝圖文謝謝謝謝圖全集委員接下來請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":8561.956,"end":8564.024,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":8569.552,"end":8590.933,"text":"王維好部長好謝謝剛剛聽到很多相關機車噪音帶來的影響那我這邊也根據今天排的議程來跟您瞭解一下對於交通工具噪音檢測量能的部分那其實噪音對國人的健康影響"},{"start":8592.054,"end":8614.837,"text":"還有需要更多的研究才能夠讓我們知道噪音對於除了一般健康之外還造成了哪一些的影響所以在提這個噪音檢測之前我們還是先來討論一下機車排氣檢測的問題因為噪音跟氣體對於民眾健康的影響事實上還是要做一些區隔那同時也要多了解"},{"start":8615.638,"end":8639.616,"text":"目前機車的量已經接近了1500萬輛如果把這個汽車也加進來的話是2300萬輛幾乎是每一個國民都會有一輛代步的工具這個是密集度非常高的一個不知道是好還是說我們有什麼更好的方式來改善在我們讓這個交通順暢的同時移動順暢的同時能夠達到好的這種環境的保護"},{"start":8645.149,"end":8671.027,"text":"謝謝王委員這個建議這個問題事實上因為我們臺灣基本上地狹人稠道路通常也比較小所以機車會那麼流行事實上是有它的原因因為真的用機車比開車有時候真的方便太多了特別是你到市區到比較狹小的地方所以大概機車這一塊一直真的很難"},{"start":8672.128,"end":8698.9,"text":"短時間降下來所以除非我們的大眾運輸工具真的非常便利我幾乎可以不用車子我到哪一個地方就可以有大眾運輸工具所以這些年來不管環境部不管交通部經濟部我們在對汽車的一些太舊換新的政策事實上也做了一些調整早期就是只要你"},{"start":8699.56,"end":8724.741,"text":"因為這個新車它的效率比較高省油的效率所以就鼓勵即使你是燃油車也是鼓勵這個太舊換新那後來隨著這個碳排以及隨著空氣污染的因素就會逐漸鼓勵這個燃油車換成電動車可是我們剛剛也看到一些資料這樣子機車數目並沒有減少因為我們的習慣沒有改變"},{"start":8726.903,"end":8743.385,"text":"我們本來是希望說民眾也可以減少機車而去搭乘大眾運輸工具但是發現沒有啊整個機車的數量各位也可以從網文你看你的數據來顯示所以現在我們基本上不鼓勵"},{"start":8746.087,"end":8771.8,"text":"從這個能源的效率從排碳去這個太舊換新的但是當然也允許這個地方政府他在開發工業區他需要不管是這個碳的這個減量的額度或者空氣污染減量額度可以去做一個鼓勵的措施去做增量抵範的這個政策這個是還有在執行的"},{"start":8772.66,"end":8792.187,"text":"對,所以政策上有改變有更好的誘因能夠讓民眾再知道說使用交通工具的時候它其實也要付出一些社會的成本代價那如果能夠幫助社會減少相關的這些污染那我們知道這個通勤的空污的確是造成目前"},{"start":8793.027,"end":8807.641,"text":"不管是PM2.5也好、液氧化碳等等造成的影響都遠比電力業還要高很多所以如果透過剛剛部長所提到的這些方案或者是誘因的話希望能夠至少減少這些方面帶來的影響"},{"start":8808.642,"end":8825.767,"text":"那這個空污的部分PM2.5對於民眾健康尤其是目前知道如果跟癌症相關的話那可能跟包括這個肺部的癌症是讓我們非常擔心的那我們如果往下看的話曾經也有一些研究"},{"start":8826.767,"end":8844.137,"text":"在大部分都在都會區因為都會區造成的影響相對是比較高這是2017年的資料我們可以看到如果從這個臺北車站往不同的方向處理走不同的路線的時候在東西南北發現這個PM2.5的監測值就差很多"},{"start":8848.78,"end":8863.852,"text":"現在已經過了7年了不知道還有沒有相關的研究提供民眾當自己是機車主的時候在不同的地方如何能夠去了解掌握自己的健康或者是暴露在2.5方面這個部分的影響"},{"start":8865.596,"end":8887.711,"text":"給委員報告齁 這個研究報告是環境部之前我們內部同仁好像是自己做的一些研究成果啦齁 那我覺得像這種對民眾健康息息相關的一些自發性的研究應該可以繼續來推動當然我們也很期待譬如說因為這個議題是跟大眾的健康非常"},{"start":8889.032,"end":8908.11,"text":"關係非常密切,只要能夠再結合衛福部、我們跟國衛醫院跟協助機構能夠在這一塊多投入更多的一個經費那應該是有助於我們瞭解空氣的品質跟我們健康之間的關係就會更好啦"},{"start":8908.47,"end":8927.719,"text":"那因為環境部本身自己的我們的研究經費我在環境部這些自己來看我是覺得還蠻可惜的就是說環境部的經費他比較偏向在執行政策面或者民眾生活環境品質相關的部分反而對於比較"},{"start":8928.88,"end":8951.915,"text":"算是前瞻性的或者說跨領域的研究的這一部分在經費上應該還有努力的空間我們將來會折成我們的國家環境研究院事實上在這一塊可以多投入一些經費當然我們會來爭取更多的科技預算來做這方面的研究是,現在部長如果回到學界"},{"start":8953.336,"end":8955.339,"text":"我非常樂意這是我應該做的我非常樂意好 謝謝我們可以看到其實機車"},{"start":8970.299,"end":9000.299,"text":"﹗"},{"start":9000.401,"end":9000.421,"text":"哼!"},{"start":9001.752,"end":9029.883,"text":"王偉恩這個數據非常好理論上應該是正好相反對不對新車這個即使前幾年沒有檢查大概都OK只要他出場的時候已經合格反而使用越久這些效率啦不管是這個排氣啊氣體的過濾效率就會更差那應該盜檢要更高不過這個王偉恩這個數據顯現結果正好相反我們來思考看看有沒有"},{"start":9031.443,"end":9045.991,"text":"這個更有效的方法應該我個人覺得這個倒減率的確是年齡越高偏低這個是有一些是再麻煩布里針對這個狀況做一些了解跟處理的方案"},{"start":9046.791,"end":9073.847,"text":"我們再看一下這個噪音對我們國人健康的影響剛剛也有人提到其實WHO一直在示警這個低噪音的確是一個很重要的一個保護作用可以避免民眾身心健康的影響如果我們能夠有效去把這個噪音的控制下來不管是白天的或是夜間的噪音應該對我們的健康影響都會得到更大的改善我們可以往下看"},{"start":9075.868,"end":9098.926,"text":"歐洲認為這是很重要的議題需要大家一起來努力可以我們往下看發現說歐洲認為因為噪音造成的影響提早讓死亡這是必須要特別去改善的所以他們也提了一個具體的數字要求我們可以往下看說他們希望在2030年長期受到交通噪音影響的困擾人數要從2017年相較就是要減少30%"},{"start":9102.568,"end":9119.207,"text":"不知道我們國家有沒有相關的一個長期的規劃說未來我們需要如何去執行一個定量的一個目標來做一個可以去根據這個目標來做依據的一種檢討模式"},{"start":9120.01,"end":9137.103,"text":"給王委員報告,我覺得今天跟王委員這樣子交流意見我覺得受益很多因為環境部的確早期比較偏向空氣污染而且是長久傳統我們環保署在座的就是空氣污染"},{"start":9137.883,"end":9141.506,"text":"我個人覺得環境部未來對聲音跟健康的關係應該要投入更多的"},{"start":9156.977,"end":9158.738,"text":"在這個聲音的對健康方面應該要做更多的研究"},{"start":9174.13,"end":9197.562,"text":"謝謝部長的言諾因為我們知道環境部基本上就是噪音還有空污的問題那這個其實都必須要未來如何能夠在針對全民的健康的維護之下希望也有機會更多可以跟衛生環境部這邊有做更多的連結讓對於這樣的研究可以更好因為我們發現真的"},{"start":9198.883,"end":9199.163,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":9230.341,"end":9256.698,"text":"謝謝主席楊群發言再請部長請薛部長好楊委員好部長好噪音認證排氣管在執行力和政策方面本期認為應該是要宣導兼顧是嗎是執行跟宣導因為這個很重要民眾對於這個噪音它是有很大的"},{"start":9257.338,"end":9259.041,"text":"昨年修正的相關法規裡頭我們有將"},{"start":9273.582,"end":9274.263,"text":"對,明天明天"},{"start":9288.879,"end":9295.442,"text":"違規則會怎樣呢?違規則要有什麼處分?要罰錢嗎?我告訴你喔,要罰錢,最重的可以吊銷牌照,是嗎?是不是?我們這邊原來喔,就是說假如他的排氣管"},{"start":9311.047,"end":9332.034,"text":"沒有經過環境部認證他的罰款是比較少就是900到1800那假如他的噪音特別是在管制區的一個地方大概就是1800到3600那假如在特定的一個區域的話開始罰款的時候是3000那可以"},{"start":9332.774,"end":9356.423,"text":"一次一直在滑那也可以滑到3萬所以我們必須要去宣導嘛好那我們預估在114年元旦要上路剩下大概半年多的時間對不對所以呢為了要改善我們的環境呢安全有助於就是從源頭去管理那本下請教現在的相關制度建立的進度怎麼樣呢"},{"start":9357.663,"end":9369.998,"text":"目前沿途管理我們就是請這個假如他擁有我們環境部公布的大概兩百二五八個這個排氣管"},{"start":9372.421,"end":9372.641,"text":"可以減少很多的舟車勞頓"},{"start":9390.387,"end":9406.424,"text":"是而且速度會更快那換句話說噪音的管制認證標準你們目前所規劃的就誠如剛剛部長所說的是如此嗎是所以我們希望規劃好上路前要有充分"},{"start":9407.205,"end":9431.983,"text":"的這個宣導讓社會大眾來了解本期具體建議你不要只有放在你的網站上面因為沒有幾個人會看啊你可以看你的瀏覽人數所以我希望呢因為這個是對民眾也非常的期待不管是用獎勵或者是用通路合作的等等方式應該要去宣導要上路前必須要去宣導讓社會大眾來了解好不好"},{"start":9432.463,"end":9448.036,"text":"好謝謝楊委員的提醒那同時跟楊委員報告就是說除了環境部之外事實上地方環保局也非常重要我們每一次像這種政策一定都事先有跟地方環保局去做溝通就合作嘛所以我剛剛跟你說的嘛通通合作"},{"start":9449.538,"end":9471.158,"text":"一定要大力宣導讓大家知道。本席要跟你討論看費的問題。上次本席也跟你討論過。因此我們在3月26日雖然沒有達成怎麼樣的方式但是至少有繼續在討論。所以未來要上任的"},{"start":9471.758,"end":9497.72,"text":"新的部長他也說他上任後會讓大家多多的來溝通也就針對於減碳的需求全民的一個減碳需求的一個共識當然最重要的您剛才也有回答到說我們不是只有以碳費來遏止這個觀念本身非常的贊成所以需要國家生態系的一個改"},{"start":9499.14,"end":9524.03,"text":"這是非常重要的那所以呢2025年起要開始開增碳費很多的這個企業界大家都很緊張到底什麼時間那是不是在2025年要開增呢事實上我跟楊委員報告這裡面現在關鍵是這樣企業希望環境部早點公佈碳費的收費辦法以及自主減量的一個辦法"},{"start":9525.61,"end":9544.603,"text":"還有就是指定目標因為他們很重要他要有脫炭的能力啊他也要有接軌國際啊他總是要準備啊所以那三個執法必須先依靠讓我們的企業知道他們怎麼去寫自主減量計畫書才能夠享受"},{"start":9555.61,"end":9582.309,"text":"還沒有定案嗎?好!就因為還沒有定案所以本席要請教您因為要新接任的部長他也要說他也說了要好好的來溝通您有什麼建議給他?我想這個我們的彭準部長他也是氣象專家那他對近年排放這一塊事實上也有他的專業那我們會在這個月的時間之內"},{"start":9583.83,"end":9602.267,"text":"會把我們所知道的包括我自己所知道的會全部來跟我們彭準部長來分享我相信他應該是可以去無縫接軌對無縫接軌當然是必須要努力這麼做但是問題是本席剛才請問的你有什麼"},{"start":9603.288,"end":9624.028,"text":"最需要建議給我們的這個新任的部長我要給他的建議蠻多的啦我大概很短的時間也大概不可能那你舉例啊我會讓他就是說在政策上的推動應該是有一致一貫性事實上彭準部長他也蠻認同現在環境部針對碳會徵收的方法"},{"start":9624.528,"end":9628.992,"text":"所以你講的是宣導嘛但是本席所提問你有什麼特別要建議給我們的部長的?"},{"start":9651.946,"end":9669.691,"text":"我覺得彭準部長應該很優秀所以也沒有特別建議就是說這個堅持我們在環境永續以及我們2050進行排放支援循環、零廢氣等大方向的推動這樣就會非常棒"},{"start":9670.371,"end":9696.236,"text":"這是你給他的建議是這是你給他的建議一起加油我們現在隨時要聯繫都很方便啦所以楊委員放心好了這個我覺得會這個贊能力沒關係你可以用書面資料給本席你要建議現在的部長到底是哪些方向好嗎謝謝好謝謝你謝謝楊委員謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來請李昆城委員發言"},{"start":9705.407,"end":9732.283,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長,薛部長好,李文好部長,這個車輛噪音其實大家都很重視這個不論是在我們的都會區或是其實一般縣市過去在當議員的時候那其實就常常這種檢舉案可是檢舉案似乎很難成立就是說這個除非是固定式的"},{"start":9733.479,"end":9736.882,"text":"有關噪音的處罰標準白天晚上有不一樣嗎?晚上有特別嚴格嗎?"},{"start":9756.158,"end":9775.447,"text":"市長有分別嗎?有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":9786.785,"end":9812.256,"text":"車速的話應該是白天晚上都一樣車速白天晚上都一樣那就沒有分嘛所以我的意思是說那你同樣的這個車速那它早上是86分貝然後比如說50的話是86分貝才違規那晚上也是86分貝才違規嗎分貝數是一樣但是那個法爾是不一樣晚上會加倍處罰那晚上的分貝數有辦法把它降低嗎"},{"start":9815.339,"end":9819.228,"text":"對啊,因為其實白天跟晚上的這個86是不一樣的感覺"},{"start":9822.508,"end":9850.188,"text":"當然你們是,我看你們這一個晚上的話,夜間時段是財閥會比較重嗎?這個劉恩的建議很好,因為晚上他的背景值也比較低,所以你高一點,哇那種感受就很...就是說你的白天的86跟晚上86是不一樣的啊,感受不一樣嗎?是,我覺得可以檢討。是不是,就是說因為其實在夜間的這個住宅區啊,你搞不好你50分貝你就覺得很吵了,那可是你們還是墊到86啊?"},{"start":9851.892,"end":9860.03,"text":"所以我剛才問說那你們這個白天晚上標準有沒有不一樣那可是這樣問起來都是採一樣86跟90嘛那這有沒有檢討空間啊?"},{"start":9861.497,"end":9885.144,"text":"李委員我們來檢討一下好不好李委員剛剛講的是有道理對啊不然就是大家都一樣可是晚上一定不一樣晚上就是六七十分貝你就覺得很吵搞不好不用那麼高就很吵好不好這個你們來檢討一下我們來檢討一下好那第二個就是說現在你們一個固定式跟移動式的這一個科技執法210套嘛"},{"start":9887.585,"end":9899.436,"text":"預計在114年增加到306套,現在增加大概100套左右,第一個明年有辦法完成嗎?"},{"start":9900.967,"end":9917.188,"text":"我們希望明年本來是到116...所以這一套是多少錢啊?這套多少錢?這個一套一百萬...那都是中央付嗎?目前給我有報告目前是中央付一部分地方要配合款比例是多少?"},{"start":9918.51,"end":9935.575,"text":"比例跟各縣市的財政條件不同會有不同比如新北市咧大概比如說中央出多少地方出多少我的意思是說當然現在我看你們給新北已經算是最多了36套了可是我們新北很大"},{"start":9936.475,"end":9948.367,"text":"三十六年分一分,各區就分不到什麼了。我就想說,這個如果一百萬的話,我不知道是預算不夠還是怎麼樣,其實你明年多增加一百套其實也是不夠啊。我們這個東西有很難生產出來嗎?"},{"start":9955.179,"end":9973.456,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":9973.936,"end":9999.515,"text":"未來增加100套也是各一半嗎?移動跟固定是各一半嗎?這個我想即便是固定也可以定期做移動一個地方設置幾個月之後那那個陳情案件數有一些變化之後我們就換這個有時候我們一代表就請這個地方環保局就是說有些路段我們就覺得說民眾常常在反應可是他們就說啊那個不夠啊所以都沒辦法過去用啊"},{"start":9999.915,"end":10025.99,"text":"所以我是覺得說,能夠增加再增加,我覺得100套其實也是不夠啦所以我們的預算不夠還是怎麼樣?請李委員將來就是支持,因為...這我明天支持啦,我是說是不是你們自己編的預算不夠還是怎麼樣啦?這是一回事啦因為黨組沒有想到大家反應那麼正面啦都很正面啊那我是建議啦,如果預算夠的話啦因為現在還在編明年預算嘛,預算夠的話這個我們來增加啦好不好?"},{"start":10027.851,"end":10046.918,"text":"我最後一個再問按照你們的資料告發的量次110年到113年3月有3686件可是真正的裁罰的案件每年好像才500多件"},{"start":10050.15,"end":10057.293,"text":"這個110年110年我手中的資料才500多件欸那為什麼告發的有3000多件可是每年抓起來才500多件這個落差在哪裡啊這個我們來瞭解一下好不好就是說這個機動車輛的噪音110到111就每年都500多件啊那可是你們的資料就是說你們告發的這一個量次這個有3686件這還是移動式的還有包含固定式的7000"},{"start":10079.97,"end":10108.377,"text":"7000多件欸還有傳統軟件7000多件那個比例差蠻多的欸我們是不是可以請李文辦公室也把資料跟我們來勾結比對一下好啊好啊這裡面落差大了對啊對啊因為落差還蠻多的啊對我絕對難想像你們這個有就是比如說有告發但是後來真正裁罰的對啊比例差蠻多的啊這個是有落差必須把他弄好好不好你們去查一下那我們把你們資料給你們那你們再給我一個答案好不好"},{"start":10109.278,"end":10114.244,"text":"謝謝李君誠委員現在先做一下宣告在牛許廷委員質詢結束處理臨時提案現在請林德福委員發言謝謝主席是不是請薛部長"},{"start":10132.114,"end":10149.165,"text":"您好部長您好因為現行那個聲音照相科技執法遇到風速大的時候這個大於每秒5公尺為了避免爭議不予開罰那其實媒體報導部分縣市聲音照相科技執法告發率過低"},{"start":10151.035,"end":10177.574,"text":"反而以人力聯合稽查來攔檢來告發率則可以達到五成以上那為了瞭解聲音照相科技執法這個預算補助效益有關各縣市這個聲音照相科技執法告發成功率相較於這些環保局、警察局聯合人力稽查攔檢告發成功率那我是希望說"},{"start":10179,"end":10201.54,"text":"環境部應與相關單位提出書面資料給立委們做一個參考不找你的看法勒可以因為我們來找出原因因為這種聲音還是需要透過科技執法它比較有一個對啦那本席是認為抓草不抓改那"},{"start":10202.461,"end":10221.682,"text":"噪音車應該從源頭控管改裝車、炸街造成民怨之首民眾半夜被汽機車排氣管的噪音吵得不得安寧不管是聲音照相、科技指法或是人力的攔截、攔查"},{"start":10222.563,"end":10244.067,"text":"都要雙管齊下給民眾一個安寧的生活環境本期是希望環境部與警政署應用聲音照相科技執法時遇到噪音車未懸掛車牌或使用撬牌器或偽造車牌警政署要協助揪出這類惡意歸併稽查的車輛要給民眾"},{"start":10248.107,"end":10263.72,"text":"還給他們一個生活的安寧部長你的看法呢?我認同所以我們也朝著這個方向來做因為剛剛包括王委員也特別提到這個噪音已經是造成"},{"start":10264.881,"end":10267.903,"text":"警察幾乎都沒有在做嘛"},{"start":10296.022,"end":10319.011,"text":"因為你今天要是配給警察每個警察都有機會來做這些噪音排放這些不管汽車、機車他們才會怕今天因為你們環保署檢測的就是路邊偶爾我差不多大概幾個月看一次而已其實那個"},{"start":10320.936,"end":10350.262,"text":"可以說沒有什麼效果啦所以說到處才都是這樣子部長你的看法勒?林委員齁 這個建議很好齁我想我接下來會責成我們部裡的同仁啊同對啦應該要傳承啦也會鼓勵因為齁這個是很重要啊部長重視這個民怨啦民怨啦跟警察這個警政署以及跟交通部監理單位之間的一個合作啦齁部長我想"},{"start":10351.542,"end":10378.272,"text":"2050淨零排碳已是我國政府的目標以國內舉辦跨年活動為例全台合計的排碳量推估有高達3000噸以公股、航庫、臺灣銀行為例為落實環境永續減碳並於今年3月透過碳泉底換完成信用卡"},{"start":10379.565,"end":10385.369,"text":"我非常認同所以有所謂的綠色金融的這一塊給林委員報告像金管會他們的探錢交易所去年這個8月7號在高雄成立"},{"start":10398.539,"end":10425.727,"text":"去年的12月底我們也第一次把國外的探泉這個品質好的引進到國內那國內的金融機構很多銀行也都去探購我是希望說環境部能夠率先做示範給這些部會辦活動的時候依循他的範本未來希望各部會舉辦大型活動因草擬探綜合計畫以達成這個活動探綜合你的看法呢?"},{"start":10426.287,"end":10454.883,"text":"完全認同現在很多大公司他們辦活動也都朝碳中和的方向在走最後一個議題隨著2050淨零排碳政策推動未來可預期鋰電池廢氣量將大幅度的提升針對未來電動車和除電系統的鋰電池淘汰和它的循環二次的再利用環境部相關規範是不是有準備好"},{"start":10455.283,"end":10476.933,"text":"給林委員報告已經是李電池的回收已經是環境部支援這個循環署裡面很重要的因為李電池回收在利用提煉桂金屬如何避免在回收過程中產生二次的污染本期提醒環境部要落實稽查避免廠商造假好不好謝謝林委員的建議"},{"start":10481.016,"end":10498.754,"text":"謝謝林德福委員接下來請林淑芬委員發言主席各位大家午安是不是再繼續請我們薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":10503.164,"end":10504.765,"text":"新北市6天執法開罰1500件"},{"start":10522.853,"end":10538.78,"text":"六天就取締了1500件那當然我們知道這個設備大概就是它必須要測速還要有聲音還必須照相所以它是很複雜的一套機器那我們也知道新北市目前分配到這個36套"},{"start":10541.642,"end":10549.972,"text":"那我們蘆洲,像我的選區蘆洲其實有一套固定的固定設置在中山一路可是你知道我是受害者曾經我們蘆洲不曉得是那個超跑的愛用者還是什麼他很準時半夜12點以後才開出門"},{"start":10556.781,"end":10585.182,"text":"因為這個好像好的車沒有跑開出去飆一下不太像超跑所以在半夜12點以後才會開出去飆那我知道它不是我家樓下那一條路它是還有一段距離的大條的四線道的馬路但是你們都聽得到我們大家所有不是我們的社區不是我們的結果整條馬路半個蘆洲都知道半夜12點以後有人開超跑在飆車"},{"start":10586.924,"end":10597.528,"text":"其實在那裡你說臨時發現了然後你沒有設定鼓動的你用移動的這個聲音照相設備來你移動了來已經照了這個永遠第一個不是換不均而也換寡那你全部這麼多年來你花投資30億元你要講說對於噪音對人體身體健康的影響很大可是30億元這麼多年投資只有30億元"},{"start":10614.975,"end":10624.22,"text":"其實是遠遠不足的,老實說。真的造成我們很大的困擾。我們就是受害者。所以其實從量來講,從法制面你對噪音的規範、夜間白天的規範不一。這個當然要有落差。國際上不能說天空、晚上、夜深、人靜。你30分貝跟白天的30分貝差很多。"},{"start":10640.487,"end":10643.349,"text":"法制面也要檢討．執行面也要檢討．設備．有法沒好．你沒測速、測音．還有照相設備沒好．公寓、善集室必先利其器．這個我想部長你剛才有回應了．但我今天不是要談．主要不談這個．我談空汙"},{"start":10661.437,"end":10672.823,"text":"就是說深坑啊深坑那個大火就是7000顆的鋰電池的這個倉庫在台北市區在鮮美市區其實造成很大的影響"},{"start":10674.602,"end":10701.382,"text":"那後來呢我們盧州五谷的隔壁叫林口林口南亞的塑膠廠也燒了兩三天那後來又淡水的泡棉廠後來又有樹林的木材廠泡棉跟塑膠廠這個風險危害對我們來講我們直覺的反應就是相當應該是有一定程度可是我今天來講從深坑這個案例因為它比較受到非常高大的影響的層面很廣"},{"start":10702.823,"end":10707.484,"text":"然後關注度很高的狀況我先來討論就是他當時7000顆鋁電池這樣子堆製然後燒的時候你們木柵空瓶的策戰的資料顯示到了隔一天你們的數據是PM2.5相較於其他策戰明顯升高"},{"start":10725.248,"end":10740.758,"text":"但是當時雙北的環保局都表示空氣品質仍在普通範圍內有升高但品質仍在普通範圍內這樣的結果跟我們民眾普遍的感受是很大的落差"},{"start":10742.939,"end":10770.06,"text":"那我今天在講我要講的是法治面的問題還有執行面也有法治面的問題就是說2018年我們對這個空污防治法裡面我們2018年的修法放了一個很重要的概念就是說環境知情權要放到空污防治裡面因為這個空污防治第33條我們當時就放了第一項公司場所的固定污染源"},{"start":10770.7,"end":10782.69,"text":"因突發事故大量排放空污石負責人應採取緊急應變措施而且還有限時時間最慢一個小時內要通知直轄市或縣市主管機關第二這些狀況主管機關、縣市政府、直轄市政府他要"},{"start":10791.718,"end":10817.605,"text":"令公司場所採取必要的措施或得令其停止該固定污染源的操作以外還要發布空氣品質惡化的警告還要採取因應措施那其實我們在講當初修法是說我已經授權給你們也授權給地方政府了有發生這種事情要趕快發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施"},{"start":10819.125,"end":10822.928,"text":"但是呢我們33條裏面的第4項還講說這裏面的惡化的警告發布通知方式和因應措施還有這個突發事故的緊急應變計畫應記載的內容執行辦法"},{"start":10836.136,"end":10848.79,"text":"還是要給中央主管機關去訂那你們當然就訂出來了你們訂出了一個叫突發事故的緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知的作業辦法這是你們的執法"},{"start":10850.014,"end":10866.261,"text":"可惜你們的執法裡面講到說啊經中央主管機關指定應公告設置空污防治的專責單位或人員的公司場所你們限縮了你們把這一些公司場所"},{"start":10866.801,"end":10873.128,"text":"先說在你們所指定公告的這一些不管是行業或是製程或是物質裡面你們才需要設置這個防治單位"},{"start":10881.758,"end":10898.148,"text":"他們的固定污染源的操作許可證要登載的製程除草產品種類那你們要求說使用付表所列的空污突發事故的管制物質或者是應擬定的空污突發事故緊急應變措施計畫"},{"start":10899.148,"end":10899.308,"text":"但是限縮在於﹐"},{"start":10918.132,"end":10926.361,"text":"公告你們的這個指定的這個公告的列別裡面製程啦或是產業或是我剛剛講的物質限縮了那我為什麼講這個你看"},{"start":10931.041,"end":10950.774,"text":"你們應公告的應設置空污專責單位或專責人員及健康風險評估人員的公告條件在那裡但是呢以深坑7000顆鋰電池影響這麼大、空氣品質這麼糟的狀況裡面它是不是你們公告應該要設置的這個"},{"start":10953.717,"end":10960.491,"text":"的範圍,然後是在你們的緊急應變措施計畫應提出還有警告通知作業應有的這個廠商裡面,他們是不是?"},{"start":10964.419,"end":10973.703,"text":"給林委員報告,事實上他不是,因為根根那個案子,他事實上是一個產品倉庫啊我知道,倉庫啊所以他根本就沒有在你們管制的範圍內而我們《空污防治法》的第33條並沒有限縮限縮在你們所管制的製程啦你們所管制的行業別裡面,我們沒有我們是講說,我們的母法裡面是講說要有環境知情權"},{"start":10994.132,"end":11022.926,"text":"不管哪一種污染源突發事故大量排放空污時就負責人要採取緊急應變措施最慢一個小時要通報給主管機關地方主管機關然後公司主管機場所業者也必須要停止該固定污染源的操作而且要發布惡化警報這樣子我們母法是長這樣子而你執法你的是辦法限縮了"},{"start":11025.526,"end":11046.383,"text":"因為我們來檢討齁你們先說了但是像撐坑這個你們也不是沒有也不是沒有辦法但你們有一個辦法叫空污突發事故的通報案及應變的標準作業流程的SOP但這個SOP只是一個內規也沒有法律明文規定也不是辦法"},{"start":11047.535,"end":11065.082,"text":"是吧給林委員報告事實上深耕這個案子發生之後你看後續的幾個案子情況處理的就就是說地方政府的環保局馬上就會這個跟民眾反應深耕這個事實上的確造成很大謎言深耕這個案子我們非常不能接受你知道原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":11066.363,"end":11079.794,"text":"他這個大火煙霧臭味瀰漫大半個雙北但是新北市市長第一時間出來說沒有測到戴奧辛那我問你戴奧辛要幾天才檢查的出來"},{"start":11082.637,"end":11084.358,"text":"為什麼雙北兩市的環保局人員他們在用手持式的測試器在火場周圍還有下方處做檢驗"},{"start":11100.606,"end":11102.808,"text":"現場的風速只有2.3m一秒還有這個電子鼻的毒質是零多功能的氣體偵測儀他們說偵測起來都是零檢測的項目只有什麼你知道嗎那個部長"},{"start":11118.84,"end":11131.966,"text":"只有液氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體他手持式的偵測器他說數值都是零因為他偵測的目標是液氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體當然是沒有測到啊"},{"start":11135.694,"end":11153.778,"text":"但是深耕大火燒掉的是電話、耳機最多的是鋰電池而這裡面有很多的聚氯銀烯、PVC或者是銅可能產生代奧辛氮氟化氫而他們用手持式的在案發現場測這個是這樣的方法是對的嗎?"},{"start":11158.334,"end":11180.449,"text":"事實上是太過武斷去用手持式的就是說確定說沒有帶耗芯這個是他那一台手持式的就沒有帶耗芯檢測的項目啊帶耗芯必須在實驗室進行化驗沒有辦法用這一台機器就馬上檢測所以第一時間市長告訴我們說現場沒有帶耗芯是根本連測都沒測"},{"start":11181.977,"end":11195.638,"text":"然後就隨便說說那我要講的是我是要講制度面當然就是複合性的火災災害你們應該定出監測的方法到底怎麼樣的採樣才是有代表性的要規範吧"},{"start":11197.933,"end":11226.012,"text":"是你是要再靠近火場的擴散煙流的原始濃度呢?今天首次試走火場變壓測呢?還是應在火場下風處、上風處不同的距離、數值的差異、污染物的濃度還要包含粒狀物、酸性氣體、帶奧辛重金屬、非化性有機物等要進行定性的分析還有各種物質的濃度的監測然後去模式模擬各種影響的可能範圍而且"},{"start":11227.993,"end":11246.276,"text":"最重要是你們這個都只是靠近地面或是輕微影響的地方策根本不具代表性他可能還必須這個高空的濃度所以我們其實有時候講說你的高空濃度你的策戰你要怎麼設你這些東西你策戰的內容又是什麼"},{"start":11247.665,"end":11267.716,"text":"所以讓民眾安心的不是一句符合標準就可以了所以難怪台北市市長也在生氣那我們講說存在環境當中它的污染物質是什麼濃度多少你要真實揭露環境的資訊而且要把這個資訊完整的傳遞給我們受影響區域內的民眾當污染持續擴散或擴大影響的時候我們要民眾要採取防護措施啊"},{"start":11275.1,"end":11292.791,"text":"那減少民眾在不知情的狀況下受到傷害啊 這個才是環境治理最重要的危害預警的責任而我今天要告訴你以深坑的大火為例 你知道嗎 在它附近300公尺就有3000安養中心和護理之家"},{"start":11293.852,"end":11305.388,"text":"然後這一群體質敏感脆弱的老人家你們有啟動了這個不要忘記喔 這個裡面你們的SOB裡面還有一個叫做危害評估"},{"start":11308.427,"end":11328.246,"text":"你們的危害評估的沒有任何的規範到底什麼時候要做出幾個小時要規範要做出危害評估的規範然後讓老人家或者是學校的學生然後都是靠我是深坑人啊我是台北人啊我是哪裡人啊靠社群軟體的壓力來讓你們施政然後來採取應變措施的這太離譜了"},{"start":11334.452,"end":11340.838,"text":"因為時間的關係等下到牛許廷委員質詢完要處理可是我這個制度面的事情要不要講完因為他真的太離譜了我們的重大空污的定義跟量化指標部長你要好好的檢討"},{"start":11349.787,"end":11370.077,"text":"第一線環保局的人員根本沒有辦法明確的判斷是不是已經達到空污突發事故通報緊急應變時的這個時機而你的危害評估淪於紙上作業而且沒有具體的應見型的步驟行政程序也沒有時間規範所以難以達到這個緊急應變的功效"},{"start":11375.459,"end":11395.949,"text":"所以有可能說你這個危害評估事實上是輪雨直上作業啦是不是請部長會後再跟林委員這邊補充說明對不對你們的在你們的空污突發事故通報緊急影片措施這一些以深耕蕩火來為例啊臺北新北市有沒有通報"},{"start":11397.21,"end":11419.303,"text":"有沒有通報?實際上這個中央跟地方是一起合作的因為它不是你們公告應設置緊急應變措施計畫還有緊急通知作業辦法內規定的產業但是呢當他們民眾檢舉事情發生以後地方政府也應該要通報而且要通報到中央來 這個事情有沒有通報?沒有"},{"start":11422.265,"end":11436.197,"text":"昨天早上有嗎?我看新聞報導好像好多天以後還說沒有通報連通報都沒有緊急應變措施是業者的責任但危害評估是地方政府的責任危害評估沒有具體的規範沒有時程的規範"},{"start":11438.999,"end":11465.813,"text":"在論語組上作業,保定還有很多要檢討的可是制度面、法制面要檢討啦但是只能留給下一任的部長了吧我看還是你在這一個月內可以具體的、霹靂手段馬上檢討,可以嗎這個是成科已久的問題的話沒有空裝級這一個月馬上要求我們來努力看看啦可以嗎"},{"start":11467.159,"end":11467.719,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請薛部長"},{"start":11491.823,"end":11518.313,"text":"學部長本期要先確認一下就是說今天本期之前一直有強調就是說改裝車問題噪音困擾民眾很久但我們要應該抓的是抓草不抓桿就是說真真正正如果說這個是合格的排氣管你可以讓他做源頭管理那如果不合格的你連他進來或說上市都不要上市那這樣子民眾在市面上找不到說"},{"start":11519.943,"end":11539.756,"text":"不合格的排氣管他就不會去裝那不會去裝就不會有這噪音鈔票的問題嘛所以本市也看到說你今天的報告裡面有源頭管理並且講說本部已經合格了225組的排氣管供車主選用225組裡面有多少組是汽車有多少組是汽車"},{"start":11540.899,"end":11542.88,"text":"現在也有討論到是說未來也要做這個排氣管的認證是不是"},{"start":11565.822,"end":11575.845,"text":"現在已經有在認證了我們現在認證已經根據今天的報告比例現在認證了多少1957件已經完成認證那持續在進行當中1957件已經在認證當中那現在改裝車主向環保局登錄的車輛是一萬四千多件一萬五千件左右所以什麼時候他會認證完畢就你們現在的量能來講"},{"start":11594.022,"end":11611.321,"text":"大概8月份左右8月份可以?對你們現在是委由地方政府環保局去做各地的認證?是是是所以認證完之後好認證這是重要的就代表是說本席之前記者強調的是叫源頭管理是不要說讓大家覺得說你抓"},{"start":11612.56,"end":11634.305,"text":"看到改裝車就覺得是說他們是這個過街老鼠其實重點還在於是說你有辦法去做噪音我們就要強烈取締噪音問題才是最重要的嘛對不對認同認同那所以現在除了這個源頭管理以外那更重要的是這所謂的科技執法因為我們地方政府環保局的人員其實人力上還是不足啊"},{"start":11634.665,"end":11656.712,"text":"而且你很難說要配合是這個街頭的這個取締或說街頭的一個檢視所以說科技執法相對重要但是你在第10頁的一個報告科技執法說114年增加306套完全沒有進步為什麼這樣講這是去年10月的數字"},{"start":11658.601,"end":11664.849,"text":"去年10月環境部在做專案報告的時候你就是講2025年306套"},{"start":11668.558,"end":11689.777,"text":"那半年過去了在去年10月的時候每一個委員我記得至少本席已經我們好幾位委員也都在提說其實如果說科技執法真的能夠來讓有些都會地區可以來增加這樣的一個執法量能的話應該要考慮多加的一個增加但半年過去了到今天你還是拿114年306套來我說實在話這不要講唐瑟阿"},{"start":11694.68,"end":11714.326,"text":"給紅衛報告這半年沒有任何的進步沒有增加你自己去看即便是新北市人口數最多36我們新北市幾個行政區29個行政區平均一個行政區一套講多了比較不順眼一個行政區一套您看得出問題了嗎紅衛"},{"start":11721.281,"end":11750.841,"text":"報告一下就是說你剛剛講是112到116本來是計劃本來就規劃306套所以它執行期限是到116等於2027年是你現在提早一年變2025年306套這個是去年10月跟我們報告的數字這是規劃的啊就是說實際上採購當然因為我們這個經費是補助給地方政府那地方政府會有配合款一起去採購那這一塊我想我們目前"},{"start":11751.121,"end":11752.862,"text":"我記得那時候我有詢問過,差不多80萬左右"},{"start":11773.879,"end":11791.406,"text":"看固定市或是移動市80到100萬對不對那你現在關我的新北市36套行政區平均一個一套就是板橋區一個綜合區一個那更不用講其他桃園我們有桃園的委員27套台北市23套"},{"start":11793.496,"end":11793.716,"text":"噪音"},{"start":11822.15,"end":11842.827,"text":"我再次強調啊如果你沒有違規你沒有在夜深人靜的時候那請我跟我們剛剛委員有講本席的泰山本席的林口本席的淡水還有很多的新市鎮半夜在那邊咻開過去今天別人不知道你開好車還是今天別人不知道你有改裝車"},{"start":11844.637,"end":11871.39,"text":"還是強調不是說你開好車就應該被罰不是你改裝車就被罰而是你有沒有製造噪音如果說有製造噪音抱歉尤其是在夜間人靜老人清夢的時候我們當然沒有辦法接受啊那與其要我們環保人員在那邊去設一個路口然後在那邊去疲於奔命然後半夜來執勤你的噪音的照相其實就有必要現在全台灣到2025年只有306套"},{"start":11874.943,"end":11880.79,"text":"真的太少部長你也你也要離開啊你是要跟鄉親出是陳建仁陳建仁最好是各位看有誰騎快一點再拿出來用所以部長"},{"start":11891.423,"end":11920.715,"text":"部長過去這段時間真的我還是肯定你有一些專業或說你也願意要一些地方要來去做調整所以說源頭管理的部分剛剛其實我看到報告我是給你機會讓你說明讓你來講出來確實有在做這個源頭管理但是噪音偵測的部分各縣市政府尤其環保局相關的人士都跟我們反映應該要增加半年過去沒有增加我覺得這是不合格的"},{"start":11922.512,"end":11922.752,"text":"為什麼嘆氣?說實在話啦!"},{"start":11933.331,"end":11954.722,"text":"過去這半年沒有努力 然後現在跟我講努力 我的即視感只有覺得是說環境我就要離開啊 不是 這個跟那個完全沒有關係 黃委員你講 去年10月份看到的306套 就是去年10月份的報告跟一模一樣 我下一個委員已經要上台了 我不要拖下面的時間 但是我現在講的是 部長"},{"start":11955.902,"end":11977.982,"text":"交代你下面這個是哪一個司要做的政務官可能會離開但是你的部門、部會不會離開嗎請洪委員不要誤會我覺得這個部分應該要在這個月裡面來去盤點我們還有多少資源以及增加到2024年、2025年、306還可以增加幾套請具體的給本席書面資料,可以嗎?好謝謝洪委員"},{"start":11981.425,"end":11981.885,"text":"主席、國務委員、警部長還有我們的事務官"},{"start":12005.852,"end":12013.432,"text":"這個噪音管制法噪音管制法是環境部是主管機關嗎?是好這個我還"},{"start":12015.23,"end":12044.309,"text":"我基本上過去我都在質詢國防部啦但是沒有結果我們先看這個自航機場自航機場本來是我們原住民族的部落在這個自航機場裡面因為要開闢這個自航機場所以把我們的部落分成三塊一個是富岡部落、嘉陸蘭部落然後十三部落都在這個現在的自航機場的旁邊"},{"start":12045.55,"end":12074.816,"text":"我們的自航機那個鄉親每天要承受這個噪音軍的軍方的噪音的一個侵害自航機場但是我們要從民國89年雖然有這個補助但是呢噪音補助要等30年才會輪到這個部落是這樣一個情況雖然我經過如果我們看這個噪音補助當然都是做什麼呢"},{"start":12075.936,"end":12076.196,"text":"環境部是"},{"start":12099.827,"end":12123.953,"text":"噪音管制法的主管機關所以我要特別請環境部尤其是我們的事務官要去協調國防部為了噪音管制法我也曾經提出了修正的條文也做了修正應該要採取適當之防治及補償措施"},{"start":12126.59,"end":12136.427,"text":"像這個噪音管制法第17條97年12月3日的時候公布的只有防制措施事實上難以防制"},{"start":12137.786,"end":12163.222,"text":"難以防制。對不對?部長,軍方的飛機空軍難以防制所以要訂補償措施所以就加了一個補償措施但是從110年1月20日公布施行到現在還是因為沒有錢,錢不夠所以應該怎麼去解決這個問題然後呢"},{"start":12166.462,"end":12194.401,"text":"法律修了但是地方主管機關認為還是用防治措施問題是沒有辦法防治然後補助經費不夠還是要輪還是要輪所以這個部分應該怎麼去解決我的具體的建議這個環境部要去協調國防部還有地方主管機關就是縣市政府應該要怎麼樣呢"},{"start":12195.731,"end":12212.614,"text":"你這個補助最起碼要受到補償嗎?所以要補償。所以這個補償的部分應該優先優先就距離這個距離這個自航機場最近的"},{"start":12214.454,"end":12241.145,"text":"最近的這部分其實這個很遠的其實不需要它真的很遠所以這個第一個要去檢討這個是合理的這第一個第二個就是說你每年都應該要補償而不是說要很多年之後才要補償所以這個部分是要請這個環境部要去協調地方政府因為這個部分確實是一個"},{"start":12243.541,"end":12246.934,"text":"本來已經是我自己的部落我已經讓你當自航機場了"},{"start":12249.017,"end":12276.425,"text":"結果我還要每天要做這個噪音卻又沒有辦法做補償可以嗎可以我們來跟國防部討論一下補償措施的部分請業務單位齊集的去協調然後要請業務單位提供一個月內提供什麼資料就是說我們有很多的機場所有的機場"},{"start":12278.513,"end":12296.349,"text":"不管是軍用的、軍用跟民航一起共用的或是單獨民航的這些相關的這些補償或是補助的一個情形可以嗎提供這樣的一個書面資料"},{"start":12298.342,"end":12299.143,"text":"接下來請牛許廷委員發言"},{"start":12330.629,"end":12335.052,"text":"謝謝主席,這個環境部、交通部、經濟部、內政部一起來好了請部長好,牛文好部長午安啊,這個既然要談這個噪音管制、制度性的層面來講我們乾脆就一次處理了,所以叫這麼多人來一起討論,因為跟大家其實都有關係啊好,大家交換意見這個根據環境部的統計,民眾陳情的噪音車輛檢舉案件數量大概多少件?"},{"start":12359.537,"end":12360.178,"text":"為什麼會發生這樣的事?"},{"start":12376.37,"end":12396.211,"text":"這裡面可能人為的這個對而且很多噪音齁譬如說你機車呼嘯而過不好抓嘛對不對所以我們今天要針對這個問題來做討論然後本期有三個題目齁第一個叫做源頭主卻啦源頭主卻的問題跟經濟部有關齁你們可以一起回答齁"},{"start":12396.872,"end":12397.593,"text":"現在是一個緩衝期今年是緩衝期"},{"start":12420.669,"end":12430.013,"text":"你現在有多少把握業者會100%配合這件事?還是說表面上配合你私底下還是賣不合格的管制?因為目前登記到目前為止將近15000"},{"start":12433.633,"end":12439.277,"text":"為這個機車的車主已經來登記了一萬五千個那持續還在進行當中"},{"start":12462.952,"end":12463.172,"text":"那當然嘛"},{"start":12487.266,"end":12508.639,"text":"業者一定會反彈但是公權力該做的時候就要做那把話講清楚規則定清楚我現在就要問經濟部經濟部你回答你現在講業者都有都願意配合那未來你如果做稽查你發現這家業者名義上講說我都會提供合法的排氣管可是我去稽查的時候發現他根本沒有在做這件事他掛羊頭賣狗肉還是繼續做非法的改管的行為的時候你有沒有處罰的方案"},{"start":12510.834,"end":12533.277,"text":"跟委員報告我們一般都會會同那個環境部一起去稽查所以這個時候我們發現的時候我們會把相關資料請環境部馬上依照他的法規就著以處理現在的法規現在處罰機制是什麼所以一個聯合稽查動作剛剛劉委員的問題是什麼樣我說你現在是有聯合稽查機制嗎可是你抓到業者如果還是非法提供相關的這個排氣管的時候有沒有針對業者的處罰機制"},{"start":12535.259,"end":12561.627,"text":"有啊應該沒有但是對業者應該會是經濟部在負責吧還是你看所以這就是我今天要把你們一起叫上來的原因嘛對不對環境部只針對有沒有環境部認可的這個排氣管以及他排的噪音是不是超過標準環境部好你看這就是漏洞對不對所以你們要開會討論嘛要不然你的源頭管理永遠都是永遠都沒有處理嘛對不對這個"},{"start":12563.227,"end":12573.535,"text":"剛剛都在講討論說這一個月對不對能不能雷厲風行我是希望可以啦因為這種事情其實不分藍綠不分朝野也不分誰做環境部長誰做經濟部長這全民共識這應該把它徹底殲滅所以就趕快開始做研討不要拖了好不好針對業者的客責啊"},{"start":12581.661,"end":12601.787,"text":"有課則機制才有辦法源頭阻卻這第一個問題第二個問題就是執法的效率我要談的是科技執法但其實剛剛很多委員都有問過我們今天不花太多時間在這個地方這個未來有沒有打算擴大相關的這個預算因為剛剛大家都講一套一套行動資格太少來內政部警政署來講一下"},{"start":12605.808,"end":12631.118,"text":"這個使用之後有沒有對於這個節省警察的工作量能啊有沒有幫助使用科技執法的話這個科技執法設備是有我們噪音的對啊噪音科技執法我跟你講是沒有科技執法設備的情況下要怎麼抓噪音你是不是交通警察是不是要跟人去執法對不對叫做環境聯合稽查對不對"},{"start":12632.919,"end":12647.407,"text":"第一個是在配合聯合稽查第二個我們在勤務當中不管入檢、臨檢發現有這樣的...都會處理對不對?如果多一些科技執法的設備你是不是少一點警察出行的機會?是嘛,對,我還要聽你這句話所以環境部"},{"start":12648.147,"end":12665.335,"text":"內政部想辦法也許警政也提供一些預算資源也是可以的啊因為這件事情有助於減少基層警力的壓力啦所以不管你們要從哪裡找錢出來就是要做嘛去加大這個科技執法這個設備的預算編列啦部長這第二個第三個交通部來"},{"start":12666.636,"end":12689.313,"text":"你要靈活運用法規啊最近大家在吵得沸沸揚揚的叫做祭典制度對不對職業價值都崩潰了對不對這當然要檢討要做調整該祭典的沒祭典不祭典的去祭典你當然被罵嘛交通部噪音改管車輛人人得而誅之啊這沒有什麼好客氣的這種有沒有祭典現在他被倆包抄標很吵有沒有祭典"},{"start":12689.733,"end":12709.771,"text":"跟委員報告一下,這個噪音管制超過標準的部分是按照這個噪音管制﹖是罰錢嘛﹖是按照他的法來做規定那如果說是屬於這個消音器不全﹖有影響行車安全的話那個是在這個處罰條例裡面有這個規定那噪音管制﹖因為兩個適用的法源是有不一樣啊"},{"start":12710.171,"end":12727.018,"text":"我跟你講你們在那邊研討很多人在那邊研討說我們要沒入車輛這當然是最有效的裁罰機制可是你如果沒有一個你不能一下標準定那麼高然後都做不到一直研討中這樣是有問題的嘛最務實而且可以思考的方式就是祭典嘛你被人家抓包晚上你喜歡出去飆車就祭典啦"},{"start":12727.598,"end":12745.854,"text":"多記幾點,什麼就可以扣牌了?各位,各位報告一下,如果是飆車的話,那個一定記,而且這個掉過駕照噪音啦,我現在講的是噪音啦,飆車族的噪音對不對?是不是一樣來做個研討啦?這個把它納入記點,這個記點不會有民怨嘛反而大家拍拍手覺得政府有魄力對不對?"},{"start":12747.255,"end":12769.87,"text":"所以本期做小結論這三個部分第一個針對源頭主缺的部分要對業者課與責任第二這個加強執法效率增加科技執法量能第三靈活運用祭典制度徹底殲滅這個噪音的公害好不好這個不要等什麼換不換屆趕快做啦我希望趕快看到成果可以嗎"},{"start":12770.387,"end":12771.968,"text":"先謝謝張偉豪跟各位委員謝謝那我們是不是先請薛部長"},{"start":12796.528,"end":12809.963,"text":"部長好,其實我聽了一個早上很多委員都有提到這個噪音是公害而且是大家很痛餓的那其實在各縣市我知道都有相關的專案執法執法的專案比如說桃園有桃園的台中我記得有一個進城專案"},{"start":12815.248,"end":12839.173,"text":"但是大家都認為專案式的執法效力不髒為什麼因為專案式的執法都是在特定的時間那特定的區域那所以才會有今天部長您來報告我們要從源頭管理到後來我們的這個改管要登錄那如果沒有登錄要開法我們要做全套的一個管制對不對部長是"},{"start":12840.353,"end":12859.364,"text":"是,那你認為如果我們全套的管制之後呢那地方的進程專案或者是桃園的這個淨桃專案你覺得像這樣專案的執行效果會不會加倍當然會這個產生一些效果但是還沒有把它達到我要聽的是但是"},{"start":12860.694,"end":12890.303,"text":"還沒有辦法達到理想的狀況原因是用人工跟跨部會的聯合稽查這種畢竟是它有實踐性剛剛是嗎部長那我現在就要講說那如果要系統性的來徹底解決噪音這樣子一個問題的情況之下那我們有沒有系統性的策略而不是只有中央地方的聯合稽查在特定的區域特定的地點特定的時間所以我們接下來就是科技的"},{"start":12891.163,"end":12906.057,"text":"可是科技的執法也是固定點啊那你的移動點你的移動點如何移動那當然一定是由你們的一個策略嘛對不對是所以除了增加這個設備之外那我們的策略跨部會是怎麼樣的來"},{"start":12907.54,"end":12907.56,"text":"大衛﹗"},{"start":12936.628,"end":12960.571,"text":"未來的執行面當然就是環境部我們現在擔心的是執行啊我們現在擔心的是執行面啦就是說執行面啦議員嘛跨部會都協調不好的話就更不要苛責地方政府來跟中央配合啊對那執行面的話當然就是說環境部我們針對噪音那我想交通部或者這個警政署的這一塊可是現在聽起來你們各自為政啊"},{"start":12961.091,"end":12986.253,"text":"對,所以這一塊我希望能夠有個平台所以你說跟未來的彭部長你要無縫接軌那這整套的這個管理系統那怎麼樣無縫接軌那其他部會換了新的首長怎麼樣無縫接軌我覺得這個事才是民眾所關心的事實上環境部也有成功的案例比如說我們在抓不管是空污、水污跟土壤的污染我們有一個檢警環的"},{"start":12987.794,"end":12990.518,"text":"我只希望既然我們有心要做要管理那應該要把它想清楚如何能夠不要只是專案式的一個稽查方式"},{"start":13006.458,"end":13027.189,"text":"有系統性的能夠去防範這些噪音公害的產生嘛我只問你一個嘛比如說剛剛有其他委員有講到嘛現在我們要源頭管制那改管要登錄那你給我的報告說從1月1號執行到4月15號總共來申請登錄的有14971件那部長你承不承認會不會有黑數"},{"start":13033.109,"end":13044.208,"text":"這個黑數當然是難免的一定有黑數嘛一定有黑數嘛那黑數你怎麼去稽查得知呢只能靠事後的剛剛講的專案稽查嗎"},{"start":13046.904,"end":13072.656,"text":"我想這個從源頭嘛就是看看這些機車行啊或者說這個換售所以我就點出這一點嘛你的源頭管理你是被動的等人家來登錄啊那沒有來登錄的黑數你又要做核管理這個才是問題嘛我跟你說合法的啊我們都可以查得到啦那沒合法的啊因為就沒定期來你就查不到啦"},{"start":13073.516,"end":13098.479,"text":"不是嗎?那我們現在最需要去查的是什麼?那些非法的黑數啊那才是造成公害的最主要之原因嘛對馬部長那怎麼辦?那所以這一塊我們未來就加強這一塊特別是不要再用自驗的啦我想應該...你怎麼加強啊?我現在要聽的是你打算怎麼加強我們張市長來回答好了這個...誰可以來回答?"},{"start":13100.137,"end":13118.204,"text":"我想最主要還是後端的那個稽查包括那個聲音照相還有那個聯合稽查這個都要一起搭配上後端的稽查那從源頭管理到後端的稽查這中間沒有其他可以有積極的行政作為嗎因為就是我們那個改裝的場所可能我們要做一些"},{"start":13120.345,"end":13131.728,"text":"去看看到底改了什麼東西對嘛,所以我說跨部會嘛第一個改裝的場所嘛再來改裝的場所如果是沒有登記的咧欸我們現在也看到很多個人工作室在改裝欸啊這個查得到嗎也查不到啊這也就是所謂的黑數嘛對不對是不是那這又該哪一個部會管經濟部還是交通部是不是經濟部"},{"start":13151.749,"end":13163.625,"text":"對嘛,所以你們跨部我現在講的不只是機車行喔現在已經有新興的行業叫做個人工作室喔那個人工作室是誰管?"},{"start":13164.912,"end":13180.951,"text":"我現在是點出實務面的問題啊我們在基層都知道有這個所謂的產業鏈的狀況那你們在這個公務單位、行政單位裡面如果不了解實務面的狀況你怎麼去把這一套的一個"},{"start":13181.992,"end":13182.392,"text":"謝謝何委員"},{"start":13210.226,"end":13237.917,"text":"現在處理臨時提案總共有6案請一併宣讀臨時提案第1案查在當前利用網路連線制各類紙容器所印製之官方溯源QR code卻皆僅建擔保之本紙參據來自向環境部資源循環署登記列管的業者內容而有欠相關詳實之產製資訊更衍生不效非法產製業者可憑倒置QR碼在未裝成合法容器之政策一律"},{"start":13238.777,"end":13255.535,"text":"原此特決議要求環境部最速啟動措施改善作業並於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、廖偉祥第二案一般民眾難以全面了解管制噪音法規"},{"start":13256.135,"end":13271.087,"text":"地方政府若以稽查違規車輛之名﹐行侵害民眾權益之時﹐如此反而使政府失去威信﹐遭受民眾質疑﹐導致政策無法完整被推行﹐原因要求環境部就地方政府噪音管制作為﹐進行了解與檢討相關作為﹐並於一個月內將"},{"start":13276.091,"end":13294.182,"text":"檢討報告送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員黃修芳、王振旭、林月琴第三案車輛製造廠、車輛代理商或車輛修理業均為經濟部所轄未將噪音源頭規範應給予妥適管理,原此要求環境部、交通部"},{"start":13294.662,"end":13316.66,"text":"警政署、經濟部於一個月內就推動改裝排氣管認證制度邀請相關機關及地方政府共同研討並宣達相關措施以達廣真民眾及企業反應之效並工作政策調適提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、林月琴第4案為督促行政部門落實減少溫室氣體排放之政策"},{"start":13319.142,"end":13334.779,"text":"接軌國際目標．原要求環境部檢討機車太舊換新補助之缺失．具體說明政策修正方向及改善方案．並於一個月內提出書面報告與立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員王育敏．連署人委員盧憲一、蘇清泉．"},{"start":13339.484,"end":13354.889,"text":"第5案環境噪音除了會損害聽力還會導致憂鬱焦慮睡眠障礙注意力下降提高內分泌系統及心血管疾病的發生率甚至因聽覺刺激降低而增加罹患失智症的風險委員要求環境部於半年內針對環境噪音對人們生活之影響"},{"start":13360.15,"end":13374.248,"text":"與衛生福利部進行相關研究、制定相關場域或空間、噪音防治準則與規範．並將書面報告送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員蘇清泉、王育敏、盧憲一。第6案"},{"start":13375.289,"end":13394.941,"text":"區域醫院及醫學中心更是醫療中重度責任中心必須負擔及重難的照護責任衛生福利部及經濟部提供地區醫院補貼更應考量區域醫院及醫學中心肩負社會責任的特殊性原要求全國醫院比照現行地區醫院給予電價補貼"},{"start":13397.242,"end":13414.732,"text":"提案人委員蘇清泉、陳金輝、盧憲一宣讀完畢好在這邊做一下宣告等一下如果有文字修正請將文字修正版送主席台確定好那我們先從第6案開始那行政單位有沒有意見沒有第6案喔第6案喔第6案"},{"start":13432.998,"end":13433.679,"text":"會不會是經濟部的?"},{"start":13443.072,"end":13443.092,"text":"經濟部"},{"start":13466.25,"end":13492.275,"text":"經濟部說明因為當時就是地區運營的部分主要是那地區運營會議非核心地區當時跟衛福部商量的時候是非核心地區而且它經營比較困難那如果要把扣給全國的話可能要進一步研議那因為研議店這個補貼的話還是由這個衛福部來處理會比較妥適因為後續要編入那個目的是為了主管機關的預算是 那王委員"},{"start":13496.427,"end":13519.674,"text":"那這個就加一個這樣演繹好不好就經濟部你們這邊是是就是把要求改為演繹是好謝謝是"},{"start":13521.564,"end":13522.145,"text":"禮拜三的時候在"},{"start":13539.761,"end":13540.421,"text":"行政單位有沒有意見?"},{"start":13569.288,"end":13594.257,"text":"謝謝主席,那委員循環署報告,那這一案要防堵紫餐區那個QR Code的這個改善措施我們也馬上來進行,那因為加速跟資料都眾多那有涉及到這個系統的修改等等那最後一行是不是容許我們一個月向本委員會提交書面報告可以修正成兩個月?可以,可以"},{"start":13595.217,"end":13620.854,"text":"好,那就照文字修正通過好,第二案報告第二案沒有問題,遵辦照辦,可以那第三案沒有問題好,第四案第四案沒有問題也沒有問題,好,那就這個照案通過那第五案"},{"start":13621.867,"end":13622.908,"text":"提案委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":13652.096,"end":13663.242,"text":"可以,可以好,那就照文字修正通過那臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來請劉建國委員發言好,謝主席有請部長請薛部長還有請入署李副署長請李副署長"},{"start":13683.737,"end":13698.655,"text":"部長好,部長辛苦。我在這個上個屆,就第10屆的時候,也第7會期,這個上半年的時候,有興趣擔任社會法制的召委,那時候就排了環境部的組織法。"},{"start":13699.736,"end":13720.536,"text":"那也很感謝當時的衛環跟司法法制的委員大家都非常支持迅速讓這個環境部的執法通過嘛那環境部就可以在去年的8月22日來順利掛牌那也要謝謝薛部長臨為壽命成為第一任的這個環境部的部長但是部長現在現在不到一個月就要畢業先留"},{"start":13723.91,"end":13741.538,"text":"當然也感謝部長因為台灣的氣候變遷還有2050要進行碳排的相關政策進行產品的規劃跟佈局我在這邊也特別感謝部長在這麼短的時間來把這些事情做到一定的程度"},{"start":13742.538,"end":13762.408,"text":"不過有些問題,剩下這不大一個時間還是要請部長來關心因為今天主席剛好排這個噪音的相關的課題因為有時候等到現在部長來處理的時候可能會緩不濟急部長看一個新聞這個是去年的新聞那很清楚就是說暑假的噪音"},{"start":13763.729,"end":13765.03,"text":"我們在稽查的時候到底是用什麼方式去確定它的這個消音器有拔掉嗎?"},{"start":13794.183,"end":13807.508,"text":"對我們來講不是重點是說他排氣的時候產生的噪音有沒有超過我們的標準當然我們會對他排氣管看他是不是符合環境部認證的那個排氣管"},{"start":13808.542,"end":13835.683,"text":"對,看排氣管有沒有環境部有認證嘛對不對但是如果它的噪音值超過我們是用噪音管制法去做裁划嘛就1800到3600嘛對不對但是它拔掉這個消音器那划子又不一樣是依照道交法的43條去做處理嘛那這個部分是屬於檢查機關來做處理那副總就請說明一下你們怎麼去認定"},{"start":13837.436,"end":13859.455,"text":"他如果把這個消音的拔掉以後我們就到這條4、3條給他處罰對阿你們怎麼知道他拔掉用什麼樣的儀器去認定他拔掉還是木式還是以前的到現在喔到現在還是用那個圖法用剪棍去戳那個排氣管"},{"start":13860.106,"end":13886.504,"text":"那個排氣管它的形式非常多那不能夠用一個像掃把的餅進去戳以前是有這樣的不當的一個你們沒有用掃把的餅你們是用警棍對啦警棍也有員警用警棍以前是這樣現在是這樣嗎現在我們禁止這樣子去做我們如果能夠判斷的出來的話那我們就做判斷"},{"start":13887.724,"end":13902.53,"text":"那如果說有一些排氣管可以從外觀裡面看到它的排氣那個那個消音器已經拆掉的話那我們就直接來置擔拘捕那就是可以看得出來怎麼看嘛"},{"start":13904.461,"end":13922.438,"text":"從就是說 我不會看 老實講 不會看的時候如果聲音太大的時候 聲音太大就用噪音管制法去處理嘛 因為我們沒有儀器可以判斷 沒有嘛 所以我們只能夠把這一部車把它拍照下來之後 送請那個環保單位再去通知他來檢驗"},{"start":13923.559,"end":13941.911,"text":"送去環保單位來檢驗有關於噪音的部分就拍照下來有關於這部分那很清楚了對不對他如果噪音的聲量過高那當然又環境部地方環保局處理對不對但是如果拔除他的消音器誰來認定"},{"start":13943.512,"end":13962.204,"text":"誰來處理拆除消音器的確就是說我們有一些是沒辦法用目視來看那如果說從排氣管的後端可以看得出來的那我們怎麼看嗎所以就是這個部分也看不出來我老實講我沒有在實務做過我不會看"},{"start":13963.266,"end":13972.88,"text":"警察突然一下可以馬上問啦,誰會看,能不能來跟我們說明一下?基本上這一些屬於...沒有啦,你不要到我那裡坐嘛,你有在看嗎?還是你們的同仁有在旁邊,你叫他們來講問題,你們是怎麼看嘛?"},{"start":13975.765,"end":13995.153,"text":"那個早期會用...好啦我給你看一個案例好不好請部長跟副長看這個案例嘛這是一個桃園的一名純性男子在114點8月9號晚上10點半召警攔查嘛因為他拆除排氣管箱去被開花6千嘛並調供牌照這個6個月嘛他提出申訴最後法官認為該院警經理現場聽聞狀況判定聽啊、聞啊"},{"start":14000.219,"end":14028.666,"text":"你是說這麼看的喔?那我就不曉得你怎麼看的啊?我對不對?然後最後就是缺乏儀器的檢查也無從回推承攬排氣管是我拆除消音器因此該罰單撤銷啊?雖然今天你要把你罪犯報告這個事情你不解決你怎麼去抓噪音?你怎麼去嚇阻人家拔除消音器?沒有啊!因為我現在請教你的時候你也沒辦法回答我啊你說用看的啊那你叫一個人來跟我講說怎麼看嘛給委會講說你怎麼看嘛"},{"start":14029.69,"end":14044.882,"text":"我們是要解決問題嘛對不對所以我才講說你不能再像其實也不能講像以前現在是這樣啊還是有員警拿警棍在捅那個排氣管啊去確定到底有沒有把這個消音器拔掉啊"},{"start":14047.381,"end":14073.281,"text":"當然不會拿掃保啦謝謝劉委員的建議啦我覺得這個應該去我們跟這個經濟部跟交通部這邊來研究一下看看這個漏洞要怎麼去我們就是要解決問題嘛對不對如果現在在做這個事情的時候都還用不是科學的方式到最終你們很積極的去做這樣的攬查結果到了法院的判決是這個樣子"},{"start":14075.461,"end":14100.84,"text":"事實上這個可以跟原來的產品去做比對嘛看看是不是其中哪一個部分消音器被拿掉還是怎麼樣當然需要花一些時間啦我想我們透過質詢就是要解決問題嘛是不是部長還有警政署還有交通部應該是一個月內是不是可以來研擬到底這個事情要用什麼樣的方式更精準用科學方式來做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":14102.221,"end":14128.166,"text":"才不會讓遠景還有地方的這些環保人員對啊 努力了半天結果對 好 罰單就被撤銷好 謝謝 兩位請回好不好 我是提前講好不好 我們不知道就是罵別人啦 我想委員都會準備才會問嘛 你如果自己不清楚回答這個某兩個事情自己都不清楚的話 我想有時候有時候會漏氣啦"},{"start":14129.793,"end":14131.4,"text":"那第二件事情是這樣,部長有沒有看過這個貼紙"},{"start":14134.862,"end":14161.176,"text":"我倒是沒有看過啦這個是以前環保署現在變成環境部啦齁這確定應該是所以前做的這個噪音審驗合格證OK沒有問題吧是應該是嘛齁我們這是以前這是早期用的早期阿不然你現在還有什麼新的現在沒有新的這個不用這個啦阿所以你國內就幫你買了這現在沒有在用就對了阿這就你們做的嘛對"},{"start":14162.539,"end":14185.874,"text":"對嗎?好,你再看旁邊這張右邊這個是不是也是你們做的?你慎重回答你前面就沒辦法去認定了你不要第二章你跟我講說是或不是你也不行都不回答喔來"},{"start":14192.366,"end":14218.3,"text":"這個除了看起來顏色不一樣,裡面的包括文字,包括那個,看起來蠻像的這應該有問題,這個好像是在那個網路上可以買到的一個貼紙請消保官去查所以這個是不是你們的?不是好,那再問一次,左邊是不是你們的?審驗合格證是不是你們的?右邊你跟我講不是了嘛,對不對?你確定了嗎?"},{"start":14219.434,"end":14245.991,"text":"理論上這個環境部應該不會去貼高噪音的這種東西對啊低噪音比較好的東西才會去貼好不好那右邊邏輯的右邊這個叫做噪音審驗不合格證肯定不是你們我們當然不會去到現在不敢果定的去答覆我那就很奇怪了然後自己貼的東西當然那時候你不是當司長我知道也不是部長你要當部長任內不過這基本上"},{"start":14247.626,"end":14266.897,"text":"一個合格檢驗證基本上就是剛才陳副部長答覆我的對相關的排氣管我們有個認證的這樣的一個機制嘛我也必須在這個地方去貼相關的一個驗證的合格標章嘛是那個零牌嘛這個怎麼會有人去貼這種東西然後那我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":14269.266,"end":14292.756,"text":"你說貼右手邊證對對對對對對貼這個噪音審驗不合格證啊環境部假如有發現就應該去包括公開說明去這個發新聞稿跟澄清透過媒體其他環境部不可能去貼所謂的高噪音還是什麼之類這個是不合邏輯的概念是啊但是人家是貼高噪音不合格證啊"},{"start":14294.096,"end":14294.376,"text":"有沒有華哲?"},{"start":14309.575,"end":14337.574,"text":"這個貼紙大概沒有法則但是他不可以用行政院環保署車輛的這個不可以用這個侵犯到等於說我們的這個機關的那個嘛對公部門機關相關的名稱都不可以去使用對不對這其實已經觸及了紅線啊也是在挑釁公部門我們知道要怎麼處理嘛這挑戰公權力我覺得這個是"},{"start":14338.895,"end":14342.82,"text":"應該怎麼處理?我們來瞭解一下事件怎麼炒除?他們去炒除怎麼炒除?這個有花折嗎?"},{"start":14349.793,"end":14373.226,"text":"後來這個公民交易法上面是有規定這個不行的那現在就請他下架不能再賣是因為你們後來還會有這個相關的改裝排氣管認證的制度嘛對不對明年現在是緩衝期嘛明年你們就要全面來上路了嘛是對那之前就有這個狀況現在未來一定會有其他的狀況在發生嘛是"},{"start":14373.746,"end":14374.046,"text":"好。OK。"},{"start":14391.718,"end":14394.32,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員接下來請羅志強委員發言我先做一些宣告中午不休息質詢到登記委員發言結束後才休息"},{"start":14423.55,"end":14447.789,"text":"主席有請薛部長請薛部長好,羅文好部長好民眾對於居住環境品質的要求是越來越高那不管是空氣品質、水質都是關心的重要環境指標但有一個很重要的衡量標準是今天的主題就是噪音的指數沒錯,現在越來越重要"},{"start":14448.589,"end":14470.661,"text":"對,那噪音污染在各地的1999市民專線當中也常是民眾公害陳情的熱門項目因為長期如果暴露在噪音之下會造成憂鬱、失眠、高血壓那世界衛生組織以均能音量55分貝作為住宅區戶外的一個音量建議標準"},{"start":14473.042,"end":14488.319,"text":"這次環境部提的有關於噪音管制報告的內容主要是針對移動噪音來源管理那因為車輛噪音有移動跟不定時性所以環境部也就是針對比較大宗像國產機車的跟進口機車的排氣管噪音"},{"start":14492.603,"end":14512.937,"text":"但是隨著不同的環境的來源跟區域其實民眾還是有不一樣的困擾那我想請教一下部長在我的選區丹安區移動車輛噪音不分重機之外還有一種車輛也常常造成民眾的投訴跟困擾你知道是什麼樣的交通工具嗎?什麼樣的移動車輛嗎?"},{"start":14517.352,"end":14544.003,"text":"我告訴你,超跑啦!超跑啦!跑車啦!那你有沒有在路上被超跑的聲音嚇到過?有沒有這個經驗?應該有,這個多多少少是我們的生活經驗當中一個就是超跑呼呼過去其實就是那種音量非常大那其實蠻多超跑的駕駛不管是購買還是用租的他享受的是什麼?"},{"start":14546.288,"end":14568.194,"text":"他其實想說就是音浪感嘛 對不對就引擎的音浪感但是你像超跑法拉利隨便一吹油門他製造噪音就非常驚人可是雖然很多的一些有些這個超跑他的音浪感讓這個駕駛人覺得是非常喜歡但是對一般民眾卻是噩夢啦"},{"start":14571.155,"end":14591.471,"text":"單區的狀況其實我這裡有很多民眾有反應就是說有時候半夜就呼過去那真的是非常老民好那剛剛提到很多機車是出廠後使用非認證的排氣管對不對是然後所以要改裝就要監理站去變更登記對不對可是你知道操跑來說他們會怎麼說你知道嗎"},{"start":14592.759,"end":14615.053,"text":"你知道他們怎麼說?面對這個排氣管的問題事實上對超跑的擁有者我們也在檢討像我們對他的包括罰款之類對他們來講是一點影響力都沒有答對了真的完全沒影響對啊他根本不care他不care嘛那我要跟大家講就是說事實上對於這些超跑的擁有者車主會說這是原廠設定"},{"start":14618.834,"end":14632.462,"text":"他連他根本沒在改裝他不用改裝他就原廠了然後呢他音量非常大本身音量就非常大那其實這其實形成一個很弔詭的狀況就是說有些他原廠設定的音量就非常的大那"},{"start":14634.483,"end":14661.393,"text":"比方說各種操作引擎不同那噪音的標準我們看了一下大概平均在89到100分貝之間可是根據噪音的管制法道路速限小於50公里那噪音超過多少那其實就已經違規了是超於86分貝速限50到70公里噪音超過90分貝對不對也就是說換言之它的原廠基本上"},{"start":14662.421,"end":14675.496,"text":"他直接一吹油門馬上就已經超過那個分貝了那目前我們開罰的那個罰環的那個那個那個就是範圍是多大最低多少最高多少"},{"start":14676.052,"end":14697.198,"text":"一千八到三千六對他們來講可能就就是部長講的啊是啊他不是呃罰不怕他是根本不怕罰嘛對不對那所以像現在這種東西就是對於這個超跑造成的噪音問題我不知道環境部也好交通部也好警政署有沒有討論過什麼改善的方法你也剛點出一個關鍵說他還真的是"},{"start":14698.078,"end":14712.693,"text":"他就當繳規費一樣啊基本上就是我今天我就讓你罰嘛那可是這種情形你覺得讓我們民眾陷入這個噪音的這個所謂的汙染那個問題好像在目前法制上我沒有看到解決方式欸"},{"start":14713.595,"end":14736.765,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛有委員建議這個祭典搞不好是可以考慮反而是去祭典多少次以後依著要求車主要去上課甚至要做其他這些超跑擁有者比較會覺得造成很大不便才比花錢更有效我覺得很好啦我覺得部長雖然"},{"start":14737.865,"end":14747.4,"text":"雖然你好像也快要畢業了嘛但是我覺得剛剛的建議真的留給我們的行政機關去看啦就是說你今天我們如果真的要管制一下違規行為你要讓對方覺得這個處罰讓他是有感"},{"start":14753.508,"end":14753.909,"text":"謝謝羅智強委員發言"},{"start":14775.619,"end":14803.902,"text":"羅明財委員、羅明財委員、羅明財委員不在賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員不在徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員不在游皓委員、游皓委員、游皓委員不在吳秉瑞委員、吳秉瑞委員、吳秉瑞委員不在陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在"},{"start":14804.542,"end":14830.552,"text":"接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來請陳英委員發言好謝謝昭偉那麻煩首先請那個顏旭明署長環關署"},{"start":14841.047,"end":14853.537,"text":"公初去哪裡?佛光山他去農業經濟委員會"},{"start":14861.124,"end":14866.591,"text":"他去考察所以你來他去經濟委員會考察所以你來未還委員會備詢代理"},{"start":14870.387,"end":14898.405,"text":"好,那個部長這樣子啦,我也跟那個我覺得是這樣,我剛剛看一下你們今天這個出席的名單也順便替召委講幾句話啦因為這個是我們那個會已經開始了嗎?我還沒開始質詢我先我們講一下這個程序的問題好不好因為那個是這樣子我覺得今天來的這個名單除了大氣環境司是司長以外呢那"},{"start":14899.614,"end":14919.269,"text":"其他的都是負的那特別是剛剛言署長這個科技執法的部分是他們主管的業務那但是他卻跑去經濟委員會考察那通常本委員會安排的會議通常都是正的要出席"},{"start":14920.189,"end":14935.856,"text":"但是呢你們今天來的大部分都是副的不說連主管科技執法的這個環境管理署卻是派副署長來結果署長跑去考察這樣像話嗎我覺得你們很嚴重在藐視我們的朝委喔"},{"start":14937.482,"end":14965.44,"text":"我必須要在這裡做這樣的提醒謝謝陳委員的指教抱歉那今天針對噪音這一塊是大氣師主責的這個單位所以我們大氣師的張順興但我剛剛講了我剛剛講了這個科技執法的部分也是嚴署長主管的業務所以我也沒有偏離主題我點名他是對的"},{"start":14966.941,"end":14990.208,"text":"所以我在這邊也替我們召委講幾句話他不要動不動屬物會議就跑去佛光山旁邊還有專人奉茶這個都有照片為證然後我很想了解一下你們的屬物會議去那邊開會議記錄內容是什麼因為我看那個照片佛光山那邊發的新聞稿出來的照片大家都是在遊山玩水在看風景啊"},{"start":14991.581,"end":15017.642,"text":"你們要不要叫署長來交代,你不用在這裡回答我啦,這浪費我時間我等一下還要關心噪音的問題我只是說一連貫為什麼要先點名他因為前面那一段今天考察他又不在因為我覺得他不出席今天本委員會的會議是不對的要考察應該副署長你去考察你不是代理應該署長來開會"},{"start":15019.423,"end":15021.826,"text":"目前最嚴重影響環境噪音的問題前兩名是交通及營建工程所以今天想要先跟你們討論這個問題"},{"start":15041.146,"end":15054.684,"text":"氣機車行駛中產生的噪音是違反交通法規還是你們主管的這個環境噪音管制標準那你們所收取的罰環是地方政府收去還是中央收取入庫"},{"start":15057.926,"end":15082.848,"text":"噪音的部分是環境部來主責所以當然就是到我們的基金裡面去我們張市長來回答一下分兩塊一個是車上行駛中的那個噪音是依照噪音法來開罰罰額是收到地方的那個地方的那個"},{"start":15083.527,"end":15103.133,"text":"好謝謝那這個有關於這個取締交通法規常聽到警察機關都會訂定績效指標那汽機車違反噪音管制標準有沒有訂定績效指標沒有我們噪音的部分齁這個並沒有這個績效指標的概念但你們未來會不會考慮來訂這樣子的"},{"start":15105.273,"end":15127.193,"text":"因為目前的案子的量說真的也還不是那麼高啦但是為了有機率的效果科技執法的這一塊倒是不用嘛因為它是用科技執法24小時但是這個我們跟這個交通部跟警政署用人為的方式的這一部分事實上是可以來考慮特別是民眾只要反映說這個"},{"start":15130.055,"end":15149.61,"text":"所以那個部長你說那個目前沒有定績效指標不定是因為案件不多事實上是案件應該是相較起來應該是不是那麼多啦跟機車不是績效不好是案件不多好沒關係那你們有沒有檢舉專線有有檢舉專線有齁幾號阿你都不知道"},{"start":15155.683,"end":15158.065,"text":"今年1到3月,全國平均每月取締多少件?有沒有統計分析?"},{"start":15188.974,"end":15214.359,"text":"還是陳文這一塊我們容後再向文報告?你們有資料嗎?還是需要時間整理?那陳文可不可以這個會後我們再請皇冠署?對啊因為署長都出去考察又去佛光山我們也只能等會後了啊但我佛光山是我問他三次他都給我裝傻都不回答我好那你們再會後整理給我謝謝"},{"start":15215.599,"end":15235.684,"text":"因為這個聲音的分貝值會隨著量測的距離的平方呈反比因為是利用科技的技術所以理論上應該會有一個客觀的標準讓全國各地都可以公平的來執法環境部有沒有訂定統一的測量及取締的標準?有沒有?"},{"start":15237.125,"end":15265.141,"text":"給陳委員報告,事實上我們不擔心測量的距離因為這個都可以回推回去就如剛剛陳委員講,隨著距離的改變它的音量會減少但是我們現在都可以用人工智慧一量就知道距離多遠,所以倒退回去從排氣管發出來的聲音多少好,那你們量測的這個數值是大概是多遠的距離然後那個舉發的時候有沒有提供數據證明"},{"start":15266.081,"end":15267.002,"text":"我這樣乍聽之下感覺有點怪怪的不會啊"},{"start":15294.837,"end":15308.268,"text":"我特別要提一下這個立法院是一個噪音相當多的地方因為常常有很多人違規帶麥克風跟大喇叭進到議場亂吼亂叫分貝之大"},{"start":15313.593,"end":15342.632,"text":"那剛剛有特別這個羅智強委員也有講說噪音會影響身心健康會憂鬱啊造成憂鬱失眠高血壓大家知道這個心血管疾病可能會容易中風高血壓那憂鬱失眠我這邊還有一些案例就是嚴重的話他甚至輕則影響工作效率那重的話甚至會出現殺人傷害別人的這種脫序的行為"},{"start":15343.893,"end":15372.201,"text":"所以我想要請問說像立法院這樣的嚴重的噪音你們會不會主動舉發?會嗎?市內的噪音的部分我想環境部目前大概還沒有在做那你們就是那如果有人檢舉你們會不會來開單開法可是這個陳委員這種我們現在用人工的這種方法就是有這個挑戰"},{"start":15373.881,"end":15384.827,"text":"你剛有科技執法你可以在議場、在大院裝個那個看固定式還是移動式就是噪音的監測系統嗎?將來我們這個噪音偵測設備量非常多的時候"},{"start":15392.61,"end":15414.778,"text":"我覺得這個不是量多不多的問題而是有沒有需要的問題那因為我想每一位立法委員的工作都是相當重要的因為要代表人民發聲我們必須要在一個良好的狀態下所以呢這種噪音其實會嚴重影響立委開會的這個狀態"},{"start":15417.559,"end":15443.729,"text":"所以為什麼會常有脫序的行為我想噪音是很嚴重所以在這邊也要請你們幫幫忙也特別提醒立法院的確是一個很好監測然後開單的地方好那民眾都知道超數越多那裁罰的金額就越大那麼噪音值超過的越多有沒有罰還越多那目前就是測到的這個最大的違規分貝值是多少"},{"start":15445.343,"end":15469.426,"text":"我們目前測到的最高的分貝是多少?我曾經測到100最高到100對100dB好 謝謝那警察可不可以就是說一經發現立即舉發因為舉發完這部車輛還是一樣產生噪音所以我要請教就是說交通噪音可不可以連續舉發那這個問題法令有沒有規定?"},{"start":15470.771,"end":15474.272,"text":"噪音管制的標準規定有沒有舉發的標準方法?舉發的職權是警察還是環保局的人員?"},{"start":15499.572,"end":15528.807,"text":"目前來講環保局就是會攜帶設備就直接量測有些會經過過濾之後他覺得吵然後就攔下來檢測、超標、開單所以是環保局的人員?環保局就是直接稽查那因為警察機關有些會覺得吵但是沒有噪音設備所以他會把拍照存證以後送環保局然後我們會請車主過來我們再檢驗他的所以你拍照也只能拍到影像沒有辦法拍到噪音的音量啊?"},{"start":15529.467,"end":15554.529,"text":"這個會有困難,包括民眾檢舉所以這個未來就是你們要去討論客服的地方嗎?是因為接下來要請教營建工程產生的噪音這個部分占了11萬4千多件的陳情案的24%那檢報中也沒有指出要如何處理所以我要請教勞動部的檢察員是依據"},{"start":15555.931,"end":15576.012,"text":"職業安全衛生法及勞動檢查法在執行業務．那對象是工作者．可是噪音大到民眾陳情．那就表示說民眾的生活品質已經被產生很大的影響．所以部長這個部分你們是要如何裁罰或舉法．"},{"start":15578.732,"end":15589.533,"text":"這個也是跟機車剛剛講到的噪音超標就要開罰那事實上我們是對這營建工程基本上是鼓勵他們要自主管理"},{"start":15591.102,"end":15619.287,"text":"這是管理不必要到民眾舉花之後他才這個所以是依照現場的那個分貝的音量大小不是說民眾聽到自己在家裡民眾聽到聲音很大他是可以舉花他但是你們要知道我在這邊我另外提出一個要提醒大家的因為我更不喜歡音樂我對聲音比較敏感因為有一些聲音他不一定是大聲才有影響他如果"},{"start":15619.907,"end":15635.383,"text":"就是一直在持續即便它是一種微弱的然後持續的比較低頻的我大概知道對所以那個也是一種很大的干擾我希望這個也可以列進去好不好你們去參考一下那最後低頻的"},{"start":15636.424,"end":15663.391,"text":"補一點時間因為一般地方環保局的人員都有正常上下班那現在很多這個營建工程的噪音都是夜間產生的那你們夜間的接受陳情管道跟人力跟處理的人力有嗎?這一部分因為實際在執行面的說真的是地方環保局那夜間事實上對他們來講在人力上也是造成很大的影響所以這個也是今天點出來也是一個漏洞所以也是要你們要去補強的"},{"start":15664.751,"end":15685.06,"text":"你們也有移動式的科技設備,那營建工程可能利用這個方法去監測工地嗎?可以所以我想結論是這樣,因為今天的專報凸顯了四個問題就是陳情多、財閥少、那追究民眾不追究事業單位還有只知道運用科技去發現但是沒有解決問題"},{"start":15686.26,"end":15709.031,"text":"再來就是重交通卻忽略營建工程等其他噪音所以本期在這邊就是有深刻的提認環境噪音問題是影響民眾生活安寧很重要的關鍵那環境部已經升格之後呢那應該要思考如何提升民眾的這個生活品質那原來環保署時代的思維你們都是要重新檢討"},{"start":15710.371,"end":15737.359,"text":"所以我在這邊期許你們環境部的文官不要因為部長要換到另外一個地方就有這個業務空窗起和帶墮那未來本期也會持續關注這個環境噪音的問題那也要求部長要重視這個問題然後好好你們也好好整頓一下立法院的噪音謝謝好謝謝陳文的建議跟指導謝謝好謝謝陳委員的發言接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":15752.453,"end":15755.397,"text":"謝謝主席。主席我請一下大氣環境師張市長。請張市長。"},{"start":15765.419,"end":15793.761,"text":"市長我們噪音稽查就是一件很困難的事情我們2023年全國的噪音稽查處分概況來看這全國大概有10萬件有10萬件的稽核的數大概從稽核的結果來看有5萬件是無法監測或者未發現"},{"start":15796.215,"end":15810.001,"text":"佔總案件量的五成而且因為這一些噪音的稽查案件中大概有七成六是陳情的陳情案"},{"start":15811.516,"end":15841.136,"text":"那這樣子的話因為沒有辦法因為有民眾陳情那我們又再集合的效率來看是沒有那麼高的這個會嚴重影響人民對於政府執法的信賴所以這個無法監測跟未發現結案的原因是什麼"},{"start":15842.956,"end":15866.824,"text":"我想跟委員報告第一個噪音本身來講它如果不是固定的機具或者是固定的場所發生出來的那這種檢舉案想要去抓得到其實難度非常高就是跑來跑去證據保存非常困難對不對對你的意思就是這樣不像空氣空氣都已經很難了噪音更難對"},{"start":15868.744,"end":15888.602,"text":"一下子就過了嗎?對可是問題在哪裡我們知道你們有沒有解決的方法所以我們在處理事情是這樣子我們首先要先發現問題現在知道最大的困難就在證據的保存"},{"start":15890.049,"end":15916.463,"text":"那怎麼克服?這我想跟各位報告我現在構想裡面就是說因為噪音的量測就是你要即時量測到發生噪音很難所以有一個我們可能接下來會嘗試用大數據的方式從檢舉的地方我們用圖示的方式標出來之後哪些地方最容易在什麼時段發生噪音的"},{"start":15917.023,"end":15930.786,"text":"事件導致沉潛我們可能我們那個設備剛剛前面有提到就我們設備有些移動式的我們就以這些點位來佈設這個做法我覺得還不錯要不然其實沒有證據就沒有辦法處罰對不對保存證據這麼困難我覺得這個方法可以除了這個以外還有沒有其他的"},{"start":15945.752,"end":15965.339,"text":"這是其中目前想到就手頭上有的資訊可以掌握到的那我另外再問一個問題就是因為我們從明年開始排氣管的噪音就列為正式的檢驗項目 對不對"},{"start":15967.745,"end":15984.772,"text":"就是說如果你改裝的話你需要更新記錄 對不對那他是必須要就是改裝排氣管的民眾可以自行委託噪音的實驗室或者是地方"},{"start":15986.448,"end":15989.03,"text":"然後明年也必須要沒有檢驗的話也必須要開罰"},{"start":16015.945,"end":16039.931,"text":"沒有檢驗的話改裝之後沒有登記就是道交條例這邊會處罰那可是現在來看是像到今年的第一季改裝排氣管的登錄系統統計是13000那地方環保局跟實驗室已經處理的是4600"},{"start":16042.572,"end":16071.169,"text":"整體的執行率大概只有35%目前執行率這麼低,原因是什麼?檢測的量能不夠?因為我們去年底開始決定要這樣做之後到今年其實有一段時間讓環保局去籌備所以剛開始會比較慢而且2月6日碰到過年所以那個工作天數其實是比較少目前大概30%我們估算以這個速度下去應該8月底可以消化完"},{"start":16071.829,"end":16073.951,"text":"主席我請一下警政署副署長"},{"start":16102.125,"end":16128.197,"text":"市長因為你們很少有機會到胃環所以今天本席就跟你探討兩個有關警察人力的問題因為警察的操勤加班其實已經變成常態那變成常態呢常態中又有另外一個病態"},{"start":16131.596,"end":16159.179,"text":"就是警情的加班是這樣子算大概月資信奉加專業加給除以240所以假如說剛新進的行政警察他的月資信奉加專業加給除以240下來他其實不到"},{"start":16162.653,"end":16180.49,"text":"基本工資他未達基本工資不要說加班還要算還要乘以1.33、1.66所以不算以後這個我覺得對於新進的員警太不公平了"},{"start":16183.066,"end":16207.194,"text":"有沒有解決的辦法?感謝委員對我們基層同仁的關心因為事實上從我們大法官的785號的解釋有關健康前的立法旨意那我們照這個立法旨意我們定一個規定定一個辦法就是我們警察輪班輪休人員的勤休的規定的要點"},{"start":16208.234,"end":16221.908,"text":"我知道你們這個就是根據那個要點來的嘛我現在的意思是說你們能不能把要點就是最基本的提高到最低工資啦這個已經是最"},{"start":16223.65,"end":16224.391,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":16239.95,"end":16263.324,"text":"因為對我們新進的、剛畢業的或新進的因為他的底薪比較低照剛剛委員所已經很瞭解的除以240的這些總薪資他一個小時可能172那依照我們的規定依照我們這個辦法裡面就是一個人的法定的工作的熟悉每天都要8個小時那操勤加班的操勤的熟悉每天2至4個小時"},{"start":16264.525,"end":16287.192,"text":"那最高一個月不能操勤、操時扶勤不能超過100個小時在這個原則下我們這些年資比較淺的同仁他一個月要領到一萬九、最高一萬九他是有困難的副主長你想一個月操勤100個小時那個等於是用命在換了"},{"start":16288.692,"end":16314.379,"text":"那用命換都換不到平均下來最低基本工資這個我覺得對於年輕的新晉的員警太殘忍好不好我知道你在這邊沒有辦法做出很完整的答覆不過我還是必須要點出來你們回去好好的做我個人覺得最少必須要用最低基本工資來計算"},{"start":16319.06,"end":16338.871,"text":"我個人的看法最低最低啦像你們現在你們現在你們現在這個這個這個算算起來才才176我們剛新進的對不對他的縫點比較低對縫點比較低我現在的意思就是說你最少最少"},{"start":16340.051,"end":16361.44,"text":"你想嘛,一個月加班100點鐘,那個真的是已經算是很殘忍了那他加班100個小時反而平均下來拿不到勞工的基本時薪,這個就更悲慘"},{"start":16361.92,"end":16373.911,"text":"但我們現在跟委員報告我們現在經過現在我們給112人給他統計平均分析我們的營警的操行服勤操時服勤平均差不多55個小時棚委是55.9個小時那我們的營警因為"},{"start":16377.234,"end":16405.575,"text":"我們是要兼顧我們的健康情跟任務、治安的需求來做這種的評估所以這是一個情果一致性那超時扶勤它是屬於一種補償性不是一種固定扶勤制55個小時其實就等於每天要加班超過2.5啦所以這個就是我時間到了所以我也講一下就是說我一直覺得警察的勤務呢"},{"start":16406.616,"end":16424.522,"text":"越來越繁重,然後你們缺額一直不補,像以澎湖縣現在來看,就是說它的編制原額要850億,那現在的預算原額只有750億,這個缺額超過10%,"},{"start":16433.077,"end":16458.297,"text":"現在狀況是這樣我們的預算是751個噴霧線警察局751個那現在是683個我們現在切68個那我們的這個部分跟委員報告我們會等到我們的會今天在我們的官校或警大警大或是警專畢業或是我們定期統調的時候我們會優先來判補噴霧線警察局的缺額"},{"start":16459.298,"end":16485.82,"text":"不是,副部長謝謝啦,就是說優先把離島的缺額補滿這個概念也對啦,因為在本島統一調配就是互相支援比較快速啦可是我現在講的是整體國家的警政問題啦就是說因為這個不是只有澎湖有缺,是全台灣都缺啦"},{"start":16486.28,"end":16510.615,"text":"不過副部長剛剛承諾的優先把澎湖的缺額補足這個本席是跟你謝謝啦因為這個也有道理因為離島畢竟有獨立性嘛他在警力的統籌調配跟流用是跟本島有區別嘛"},{"start":16514.538,"end":16530.212,"text":"這兩個問題我知道副組長今天沒有辦法做明確的答覆可是我還是必須要提出來因為警察我還是拿一句話就是警察的情誤其實是越來越繁重那以剛剛我們的討論"},{"start":16533.034,"end":16558.34,"text":"討論算起來就是幾乎是每天平均只要有上班日平均的加班時數要到達大概超過2個小時所以這個工作也辛苦好不好警署裡面競訴跟各相關單位我知道不是只有你們的問題各相關單位可以研討出來解決的方案好不好好謝謝副組長謝謝主席謝謝委員"},{"start":16561.02,"end":16587.349,"text":"謝謝楊耀委員的發言本日會議詢答全部結束委員黃仁、邱振鈞、廖先祥、陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或補充資料請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束現在休息星期三上午9點繼續開會"},{"start":16594.107,"end":16594.788,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}