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"},{"start":2200.28,"end":2226.896,"text":"介紹我們在場的官員國家運輸安全調查委員會林信得主任委員請坐葉明山副主任委員請坐張王煌委員請坐李延年委員請坐陳建世委員請坐姚承安主任秘書請坐"},{"start":2228.223,"end":2256.844,"text":"林佩達執行長航空調查組劉東明組長請坐,謝謝輸水罩水路局局長組長齁水路調查組鐵道調查組吳吉村組長請坐公路調查組曾仁松組長請坐運輸安全組鄭永安組長"},{"start":2258.536,"end":2285.482,"text":"請坐。運輸公安組莊理章組長請坐。人事是黃素蘭主任請坐。政務是康熙平主任請坐。主計是孫淑信主任請坐。運輸是楊一文主任請坐。行政組計處公務預算處邱碧珠專門委員請坐。"},{"start":2289.264,"end":2304.577,"text":"本月進行國家運輸安全調查委員會業務報告及審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案。請林主委報告。"},{"start":2324.426,"end":2345.464,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生大家好今天非常榮幸列席貴委員會向主席及各位委員報告運安會的業務重點請各位委員不吝給指導與建議本會執掌重大運輸事故之調查調查範圍涵蓋航空、水路、鐵道及公路其透過系統性的調查"},{"start":2347.025,"end":2372.768,"text":"反者發覺事故之可能遭因及安全風險提出改善建議以防止類似事件再次發生。相關業務重點分數如下第一重大運輸事故的調查業務一、重大運輸事故調查進度本會自108.81號成立期間運輸事故立案調查共280件254件已經結案相關調查結果願意發布於本會的官方另外有26件"},{"start":2374.689,"end":2393.065,"text":"一、預期犧牲根據的調查中．各調查模組的統計分別說明如下。關於航空．我們成立迄今．最後的事故通報有100件．立案16件．已經結案13件．共發布33項安全改善建議．三有3件的調查中．水路"},{"start":2394.431,"end":2423.208,"text":"通報有957件．其中立案調查213件．已經結案203件．共發布243項的安全改善建議．上有10項的在調查中。光復山鐵道事故通報有2849件．調查案立案的有29件．目前已經結案的26件．共發布207項安全改善建議．上有3項在調查中。"},{"start":2424.386,"end":2431.531,"text":"關於公路事故通報計有287件立案22件結案12件共發布142項的安全改善協議上有10件在調查中"},{"start":2438.359,"end":2465.001,"text":"二、積極媒體關注的重大運輸事故瓜吾一、凍結的列車轟熱公園站撞擊醫護事故。這個案子我們預計在今年的5月會完成最終報告。瓜吾二、台鐵列車離角站陣線出軌事故。這個案子預計在今年的10月發佈事實調查報告。明年的8月完成最終調查報告。瓜吾三、竹塘鄉公所右通專用車路口交叉撞事故。"},{"start":2466.502,"end":2488.856,"text":"這個議題在今年的7月發布事實資料報告明年5月完成最終調查報告。瓜武市小客車國一往北大亞路段追撞工程仿傳車的事故這個議題在今年的7月發布事實資料報告明年5月完成最終報告。瓜武湘橋的校車信義快速道路往北文山隧道的發生事故"},{"start":2489.816,"end":2512.767,"text":"一例在今年的9月發布事實資料報告明年的9月完成最終調查報告關五、封滿悠覽車高雄仁武水管路撞擊國道的航路事故預計在今年11月發布事實資料報告明年9月完成最終報告現在報告業務重點一、持續提升航空水路、鐵道及公路的事故調查能量"},{"start":2514.085,"end":2531.957,"text":"為提升本會調查能量．本會藉由參訪觀謀、研討會議．辦理訓練及專題演講方式等．持續建立事故的調查能量。相關資料請參閱。在工程能量建置方面導入高精度所持式雷射掃描系統及動態定位的"},{"start":2533.438,"end":2548.105,"text":"測量掃描設備,投入運具殘骸的掃描作業,以力完成重要政務的數位保持作業,完成臺中、高雄兩個主要港區的三維立體視覺數位建模,有助於未來重大水中事故調查的運用。"},{"start":2549.125,"end":2559.932,"text":"二、強化與國際運輸安全組織交流及調查人員訓練本委派員參與國際運輸調查專業訓練課程以技術研討會議以精進調查人員專業技術包括參與澳洲及美國鐵道脫軌調查分析訓練、亞洲事故調查工程技術論壇、華國執政計畫動機事故調查研討會、國際大陸協會聯會等訓練與會議等等另外參加世界非安高中聯會以及參訪華國民航事故調查局進行交流合作"},{"start":2579.281,"end":2595.969,"text":"派言協助日本運輸安全委員會解讀今年日航與田機場跑道入侵撞擊事故的損害記錄器．以報告民航事故調查局及澳洲運輸安全委員會簽署合作意向書．並派言參加今年國際運輸安全所長聯會．及鐵道事故調查國際論壇．以加強與國際運輸安全組織之交流。三、舉辦2023年運輸安全資訊交流研討會．"},{"start":2608.408,"end":2616.054,"text":"為提升運輸安全與經濟事故調查專業技術委員會每年都舉辦運輸安全資訊交流研討會。針對運輸安全重要議題,邀請場觀學各界進行分享與研討。去年12月19號舉辦是運輸安全"},{"start":2624.915,"end":2649.13,"text":"自信交流委員會以水路安全為主題．包含船舶交通服務作業與管理．以水源作業管理．港口國船舶檢查等三項重大議題．共計國內水路運輸相關單位競擺的與會．其藉由本委員會提供自信交流平台．共同努力提升我國水路運輸安全績效。．四、運輸安全支援報告系統的建置與運作．"},{"start":2650.612,"end":2674.027,"text":"本會去年共計接獲航空、水路、鐵道及公路資源報告93則,經篩選國內外具分享價值的案例,編撰並發行8期的運輸安全資源報告系統專刊。今年其4頁中已接獲35則報告並發行4期專刊,其發行三項支持前車之間的功能,達成似乎一環的效益。五、執行科技計劃"},{"start":2675.558,"end":2701.141,"text":"本會自109年起原提4年起的建立多模組運輸事故調查流量計畫．已經在7年底順利完整並結案。至今年起依據本會三大科技施政目標及未來運輸趨勢發展．更新原提未來4年起建立我國新型運劇事故調查技術與安全研究計畫。三大研究項目包括原理新型運劇事故調查技術與國際交流"},{"start":2703.61,"end":2718.269,"text":"強化運輸事務調查工程能量、經濟運輸事務調查能力能量等。六、運輸安全改善建議追蹤與列管本會自非安會時代以來,迄今共發布1694項的運輸安全改善建議"},{"start":2720.987,"end":2748.576,"text":"完成改善結案的計1546項是以148項各機關構仍在積極改善中其中航空部會以交通部民航局以國安部空氣司令部較多主要為機場跑道設施以超級級載具活動團體督導之安全改善水路部會以交通部航港局港務公司輪位部醫院署較多主要為醫水管理船舶交通服務系統"},{"start":2750.195,"end":2776.343,"text":"遺傳作業安全是安全改善。田道部會以台鐵局最多,主要為施工安全管理,列車維修檢查,列車運轉調度,比較到安全防護之安全改善。公路部會以交通部最多,其次為交通部公路局,主要為遊覽車,國道科技列,以載運衛生物品車輛之安全改善。三、預期施設的成效、績效。"},{"start":2777.455,"end":2805.4,"text":"第一,藉由重大運輸事故調查．發覺根源噪音．嚴提各項運輸安全改善建議．協助各機關完成分項執行計畫．與預防類似事故再發生．有效提升我國運輸安全．二,藉由強化國際合作交流．激起各國的調查及安全觀念．技術、制度等的優點．應用未來稀釋．激起的因據．發生重大運輸事故調查作為．所需命名的挑戰"},{"start":2806.826,"end":2818.261,"text":"三、持續透過國內外調查技術及專業訓練,增進事務調查人員之調查技術及工程建立分析能量,並強化安全趨勢與預防性安全研究技術。"},{"start":2821.867,"end":2848.881,"text":"決議不愧將彼此獨立公正專業的精神辦理重大海陸空運輸事故調查作業同時謹記實時精進專業與預防重疑治療之積極行動防範事故與未然確保我運輸安全水準能與時俊俊感謝委員崩榮聆聽及其各位對本會會務與支持共同為提升台灣海陸空運輸安全持續努力謝謝那個主委等一下喔"},{"start":2851.857,"end":2865.805,"text":"你這個重大運輸事故調查,通報了我們用航空,用這個鐵道來講2849件,你只立案調查29件,其他的跑哪裡去?這個是從開始,我是不是請我們鐵道組?其他的不見了"},{"start":2876.562,"end":2884.385,"text":"通報的部分我們因為鼓勵營運機關擴大通報,所以即使不是重大運輸事故,鐵道事故調查的範圍我們也都鼓勵營運機關通報"},{"start":2900.422,"end":2927.425,"text":"這不是支援報告系統,通報的部分是每天向台鐵公司不是鐵道啊,水路航空都一樣啊是這個部分我們其實都是擴大通報,就是希望營運機關能夠報給我們主要的目的是避免漏報的行為另外我問你,比如說水路好了我們台馬直行脫泊艇在基隆基隆碼頭被脫泊艇撞了撞了以後勒"},{"start":2930.721,"end":2943.954,"text":"問托柏林公司,他說我只是擦到他的皮,問題人家受傷骨頭都壯斷了,還說只摸到他的皮,你們也沒去調查,這裡面沒看到報告?不是陸主任"},{"start":2945.086,"end":2971.397,"text":"水陸委員因為這個碰撞的話是屬於如果是很嚴重的碰撞沉默人員死亡那我們一定會立案調查那如果是碰撞的盡量你們一定要調查什麼盡量死亡跟沉默一定要調查死亡沉默才調查但是碰撞的話在我們人力我們船被碰了以後停在馬路停了一個月廠商要罰兩千多萬"},{"start":2973.994,"end":2986.99,"text":"這不是水路,你認為這交通警察要去處理喔?不對吧?這個我們去了解你這個報告我沒看到啊這個我們會去了解不是去了解啊,我舉1反3還有200件還沒放進來的吧?"},{"start":2991.183,"end":3003.531,"text":"只要報進來的話,我們都審慎去檢查是不是要立案調查不是你們應該要有通報嘛,難道沒有通報你們嗎?所以你這個通報系統可能會...這個案子是沒有受到通報,我們會去了解為什麼...如果沒有一定傷亡的話,就是對生理生理財產案子造成重大影響,那運安會認為有調查必要才會調查"},{"start":3014.371,"end":3028.761,"text":"認為沒有辦法調查必須不要調查?什麼擦狀都要去做國安或是運安會的調查?是的這樣找交通警察來就可以了嗎?稍微他們要調查,你們不要調查?一定要調查的啊?"},{"start":3035.489,"end":3054.878,"text":"藝術事故有一個中央藝術事故範圍調查的定義,並不是說現在分成兩個層級,一個是他有被通報現在脫不得你說我只查到你的皮,那傳公司講說我的骨頭受傷、我的心臟受損、我的肺被穿了一個洞,那都不是他的事"},{"start":3056.198,"end":3084.011,"text":"事過境遷以後公說公有理、婆說婆有理在那邊扯這個有一點點是路上比如說摩托車跟汽車擦窗海上啦這個他們兩個在這邊查,這個我們也不會調查你已經提出來你就帶回去對,但是我們會回去瞭解喔我們會去瞭解到底這件事好不好,專門做報告啦是是是好啦,我不再問了,請回所以請回"},{"start":3085.621,"end":3104.62,"text":"你們請回吧,因為我怕你們吃案你知道嗎?不會啦請回吧,好現在凍結還沒報啊?凍結還沒報啊?沒有沒有,結婚口的報告還沒報好不好來"},{"start":3106.298,"end":3120.065,"text":"我簡單的報告一下那個凍結的6個案子第一個案有關委員請本會說明113年度派遣出國計畫的經費合理部分因為過去的疫情的影響所以國外訓練跟國際會議都沒有開辦"},{"start":3122.686,"end":3150.794,"text":"一起解放之後各國的國際會議跟國外訓練陸續展開相關會因為物價調整大幅增加然後另外這個出國人員的出差日誌會也調高所以113年度的預算杯類是增加的但是我們會兼顧這個准決預算相關會用大幅增加前後我們會拙減訓練人數跟跟會訓練的這個提示所以這個是要為了達成我們調查能量的目的所以這個請各位支持"},{"start":3151.634,"end":3173.256,"text":"有關第1案委員要求本會針對年度安全改善建議系統部分本會我們在今年的3月28號已經有發布支運輸安全改善建議的評估報告納入安全議題航空的部分安全議題是超新型載具的飛行安全水務的部分是飲水作業管理"},{"start":3174.077,"end":3197.595,"text":"傳播交通服務系統作業管理以及漁業的作業安全。鐵道部分是台鐵組織與管理陣線火災的事故事故安全管理、平潮島管理等等公路則是遊覽車跟公路、汽車、客運業、行車的安全還有衛生品、物品的運輸安全以國道碰撞、仿撞車事故的問題等等那麼有關第三項是"},{"start":3199.249,"end":3209.609,"text":"委員請我們檢討公務運輸事故調查後來的門檻調整那剛剛已經說過我們在去年的12月26號已經邀請大院的交通委員會各委員會的辦公室"},{"start":3210.919,"end":3239.577,"text":"還有這個專家學者行政部門地方政府的我們有召開一個重大運輸事故的延長修正會議那事實上我們召開這個會議之前我們內部已經開過兩次的這個會選會那之後我們也開了五次的會議那在今年的4月16號我們已經擬定重大運輸事故後委的修正草案的出稿那我們朝兩個方向一個是調整啟動這個調查門檻另外是擴大調查範圍的修訂那目前正在進行法治作業中"},{"start":3241.598,"end":3268.639,"text":"那麼有關這個社會大眾所關切的AIDAS所謂先進駕駛補助系統這一部分那麼我們在去年的1133已經啟動我們已經立案調查這個小客車在國道1號北上大雅路段的發生追撞攻城防撞車的事故那另外後面還有5件類似的我們也並安在調查所以總的來講我們會履歷經事故根本也能做出系統性的一個分析跟檢討"},{"start":3271.82,"end":3280.173,"text":"第四個案子有關委員前本會提出運輸安全事務調查所需的分析能量及國家運安工程研究中心的這個部分"},{"start":3282.335,"end":3301.388,"text":"我們在109年到12年有掩體科技計畫所謂的建立多模組運輸事故調查能量的計畫那113年到116年會掩體今後的第二個四年就是建立我國新型運劇事故調查技術安全的研究計畫"},{"start":3302.813,"end":3317.643,"text":"那麼全世界的整個研究領域的成果、研發成果,我們已經都有可以支援,譬如說本會議事務調查手續,像騰龍的遊覽車事故,像太魯閣的列車事故,還有多起的重大水路事故等等。"},{"start":3319.201,"end":3333.541,"text":"國家應當工程研究中心的這一部分剛好我們的那個大樓的工程總隊117人也要搬遷消防署119人也要搬遷那麼這個案子因為整個營建物價的上漲"},{"start":3334.602,"end":3334.702,"text":"第5案"},{"start":3359.11,"end":3373.053,"text":"委員請我們改善調查案的辦理時程運輸紀錄器運輸紀錄器的解錄率以及改善計劃的結案率等等部分我們已經將調查人力跟時程做管控改善"},{"start":3374.113,"end":3388.687,"text":"譬如說在113年4月19日的為止我們調查入口案件共有26案那其中是3個暫期案那暫決率佔大概11.5%那這個暫決率跟110年的12月比起來是很明顯的改善"},{"start":3390.148,"end":3416.711,"text":"另外提到列車的解讀率我們今年的2月有建築新北捷運跟輕軌的紀錄器所以這個解讀率已經到了98%那麼1基114我們可以達到100%的解讀率那水路的紀錄器的解讀能量目前是92%我們依據今年底可以達到100%那有關這個安全改善計劃的這個改善結案的結案率"},{"start":3417.881,"end":3420.124,"text":"112年12月底到113年4月中水路改善結案率從62.1%增加到74.5%公路由67.3%增加到74.9%"},{"start":3434.094,"end":3459.648,"text":"那公路從75.1%增加到81%航空程98.6%增加到99.4%所以水路、鐵道、公路的改善決定率都已經大幅提升那最後一案有關委員請我們嚴禮加強法制作業的部分本會在去年的9月27日已經制定鐵道事務調查作業有關政務管理的處理程序那麼這個整理完之後我們可以避免相關機構"},{"start":3461.729,"end":3461.889,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3475.72,"end":3501.852,"text":"所以,我們已經積極辦理運輸事故的大作為,發掘事故的遭遇,提出改善建議,希望能夠避免劣勢事件再發生。所以以上大院決議事項,我們都已經交響辦理,而且提出事變資料。可請各位委員支持、同意、動視相關經會,那必利我們的業務的相關推動。謝謝。好,謝謝主任委員。現在進行詢答,先宣告以下事項。詢答時間,初期委員5分鐘。"},{"start":3507.868,"end":3529.873,"text":"畢竟委員4分鐘,委員發言登記10點30分截止。各委員如果有提案請在10點鐘以前提出,以便議事員會審。暫定10點30分休息10分鐘,中午原則上不休息。現在請登記第一位委員李崑澤召委發言。"},{"start":3535.697,"end":3550.061,"text":"好,謝謝陳雪生召委,請一下林主委林主委請林主委好,我記得你以前有擔任過民航局的副局長嗎?是"},{"start":3553.223,"end":3567.402,"text":"林主委我們剛才昭偉有提到相關的這些重大意外事故的相關的調查的定義跟範圍其實這個很明確的因為當初的運輸事故調查法就是我訂的"},{"start":3568.243,"end":3589.182,"text":"那這個運輸調查法他相關的定義跟範疇是由運安會相關的執法另外去制定這些範圍那當然他的定義非常簡單他的範圍就是死亡3人以上或者是死亡跟受傷有10人以上或者是他的受傷有15人以上"},{"start":3590.34,"end":3591.101,"text":"二、審查委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":3610.168,"end":3610.448,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3628.942,"end":3657.598,"text":"再做調整一下就是說我們應該是針對系統性或者是風險性來做一個檢討相關的所謂的這一種重大運輸事故的這樣一個範圍這個我是認為讓運安會來做思考以後的一個重點那我們今天討論的重點當然是在於運安會有三大職者第一個職者就是要強化自己的事故調查的一個量能"},{"start":3658.527,"end":3677.123,"text":"第二是對於我們的交通重大運輸事故要提出改善的建議第三要去監督落實這些改善建議能夠真正完整的一個改善那現在我們看到運安會成立"},{"start":3678.864,"end":3705.893,"text":"2019年8月1日到今年的4月運安會總共發布了改善建議總共是607項航空類33項水路類235項鐵道類202項公路類137項但是我們的這個改善建議其實我認為有一個問題就是說我們改善建議的這樣的一個分類的類型主要是以受建議的單位"},{"start":3707.293,"end":3724.974,"text":"以及處理的狀態來作為一個分類類型的一個基本的原則但是我認為我們以2022年0528就是第177車次竹南站的重大鐵道事故為例"},{"start":3726.374,"end":3726.514,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3741.161,"end":3768.124,"text":"人員類、機械類都有他的必須要改善的一個項目像制度類我們的檢查項目規章的一個修改負責人的制度等等或者是說人員類的人員培訓的部分或是機械類的閘瓦機鐵他那邊受損告警系統等等都有出現相關的問題那這些運安會必須來做一個基本的調整主委讓你說明一下"},{"start":3769.988,"end":3795.846,"text":"委員執教確實沒有錯我們原來是比較被動是針對被改善建議的一個針對那個單位來做的那事實上我們在去年建議之後我們已經在準備要做一個所謂的動態統計儀表班我們已經準備在設計了因為這個設計坦白講有一點需要經費所以我們也在逐步在往這個方向推"},{"start":3796.246,"end":3817.398,"text":"因為我們對於相關分類的類型這個改善建議是交通意外事故改善交通安全一個改善落實的重要的基礎資料我認為說我們應安會對於這些分類的對於改善建議要進一步的分類就是說針對類型我們要提出統計"},{"start":3820.76,"end":3849.519,"text":"那才能有效去統計出相同或是類似的問題那進一步提出系統性的一個改善的建議當然內容也應該要即時公開我認為我們這個改善建議要對社會大眾來即時的公開來顯示並且而且要顯示改善的狀況希望能夠資訊透明才能夠有效的改善這些交通的安全那"},{"start":3851.021,"end":3867.724,"text":"我認為我們的這個多項改善建議沒有去改善這個應該要跟各個單位去加強溝通我看看我們2023年運輸安全改善建議的評估報告那改善建議的結案率"},{"start":3869.468,"end":3884.457,"text":"其實都不是很好我認為還是有三至四層的改善建議沒有完成例如水路類或是鐵道類都有三至四層改善沒有完成那運安會如果去督促"},{"start":3885.558,"end":3912.107,"text":"相關單位來進行改善也是一個重要的工作來主委讓你說明一下怎麼去加強多數改善這個委員的指教真的是對的我們有跟各個單位有近期在召開所謂安全工作的協調會那安全資訊的分享我們在這個會裡面會把我們統計室跟各單位講說你這個哪裡有問題你需要我協助或者是你哪裡做不到我們幫你去協調交通部的相關單位那"},{"start":3913.578,"end":3939.487,"text":"坦白講這樣做的做法上是有進步的譬如說過去4年喔過去4年的水路世界調查案件喔從109年到112年從56件60件甚至到112件去年已經減少到23件它成效已經出來不過我們還要繼續努力確實是這樣子主委你的重要責任就是要強化事故調查的量能而且還要提出改善建議更重要要去督促啊"},{"start":3940.247,"end":3956.819,"text":"這些改善的落實都是重要責任好不好謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝好,謝謝啦,謝謝李昆哲召委下一位請,林國成委員發言主委請"},{"start":3973.11,"end":3991.075,"text":"委員好,主委,我們大家都知道啦,我們前身是徽安會嘛,對,所以把它改為應安會,把公路等等這些全部把它歸納下來,把它扣邊。"},{"start":3992.987,"end":4003.142,"text":"可是我看到我兩個疑問第一個剛才主席在講的像這類的東西我去發現到你們這些專業人員頭都很硬"},{"start":4006.566,"end":4027.48,"text":"主席都已經發現這個問題你們就有必要去了解就沒有必要去切到底有沒有必要去調查所以這類的東西我是覺得過去我們在一般的這些交通事故委員會如果有質疑到最後"},{"start":4029.361,"end":4041.51,"text":"還是我們這些這個這個運安會去做最後的決定因為你們是專業你們專業那我是覺得第一個我要請教主委的"},{"start":4044.391,"end":4062.01,"text":"從非安會到現在的應安會你認為執行起來對於業務的自愛燃省以及所有花生的這些種種的無法協調我要請教主委你的看法"},{"start":4063.027,"end":4091.084,"text":"事實上我們在進步中一開始的時候從黑暗會到陰暗會到鐵道水路公路有一些案件確實是就如同剛剛委員講的有一些薄無地帶後來我們就依法剛剛講在運輸事故的調查範圍裡面去把它律定那事實上這個律定只是一個原則如果對人民身邊財產安全社會有關注那我們就會用另外一個辦法我們會啟動它"},{"start":4093.686,"end":4121.603,"text":"主委另外現在接下來比較敏感的一個問題第一個我覺得我們貴單位啊聘僱人員占了80%所以我在這個部分我就覺得非常奇怪為什麼我們的僱員這麼多那我們正式的人員只有20位其他都是聘僱人員"},{"start":4122.557,"end":4148.183,"text":"那這個部分在整個我們運安會的執行的部分會不會產生公務人員當然比較嚴謹但是聘僱人員他受了業務之委託那不是他不嚴謹而是疏忽的程度會比較高那我們運安會啊是非常嚴謹的"},{"start":4149.727,"end":4149.927,"text":"主委"},{"start":4164.031,"end":4189.596,"text":"我們因為不說航空啦齁航空你你調查航空事務的時候這些調查官他本身要有航務機務甚至有captain機師甚至有相關的航管人員的經驗等等那不同的專業要來調查一個這麼複雜的航空事務的時候我們所聘用的人"},{"start":4190.536,"end":4190.596,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4207.319,"end":4227.197,"text":"委員這裡寫聘僱其實我們是聘用啦齁那這些聘用人員他為什麼會稅稅稍微高是因為他專業那他在調查過程中他需要協調事業目的事業機關來跟他一起工作的時候好我知道來這個這個這個聘僱人員最主要是專業任用啦"},{"start":4228.778,"end":4248.739,"text":"專業任用啦但是在這個部分我為什麼本席要提醒主委要去注意這些事我剛才不是說專業聘用不是不好而是你要為財是用所以這個部分一定主委你要去把關另外一個就比較敏感一點"},{"start":4250.602,"end":4270.41,"text":"過去應安會是內鬥的非常厲害主委你上來以後有沒有改善我那個已經都改善了而且已經事情不會再發生了可是我看他們你在講話都沒有注意看你啊有啊有嗎有啊有啊有嗎所以我在想是這樣啦我是覺得我們這個是專業單位的專業"},{"start":4273.971,"end":4299.482,"text":"所以我相信大家水準層次都很高可是在這個部分我們過去所報導所看到的確確實實內鬥很嚴重所以主委我要拜託你不要讓人家既然內鬥他就不會專心去做調查所以這點你要去把他做湯口啦做湯口要把他做得好一點所以這個"},{"start":4300.903,"end":4317.038,"text":"最後一個我這裡一個數據也就是你們的結案率剛剛你有報告當然被凍結的原因是因為是因為你們的結案率不佳"},{"start":4317.859,"end":4330.132,"text":"可是我看到我們徽安的部分結案率是很高的喔可是在海陸方面的結案率就不高所以這個部分就代表什麼"},{"start":4331.192,"end":4354.727,"text":"主委你還是要去加強在這整個為什麼非安就代表我們現在這個組織裡面非安人才多其他的人才是不足的所以這點主委你可能還是要去注意最後一點我必須要去提醒主委啦反正獨立單位要有獨立單位他的格調"},{"start":4355.828,"end":4385.348,"text":"千萬千萬做任何調查的時候不能有其他政治力的介入這一點我要提醒我們所有我們道安會所有的那個運安會所有的這個同仁所以這一點獨立單位要有權威性獨立單位要有專業性這個部分我要拜託我們主委在帶領之下所有的同仁一定要去做到這一點好不好"},{"start":4385.808,"end":4386.348,"text":"現在請喜智傑委員發言"},{"start":4416.886,"end":4418.607,"text":"主委我們應安會重點是事後調查對不對那防範未然"},{"start":4446.403,"end":4459.829,"text":"防範未然防範未然對是是是這是不是雲南會的工作是喔是喔所以其實雲南會應該是當所有的運輸單位的顧問嘛對不對"},{"start":4463.766,"end":4490.225,"text":"也就是所有運輸單位他可能發生什麼問題或者是他已經發生什麼問題所以剛才崑哲委員也有提到就是說以前你們要求要改善的現在改善了沒比如說你們包括普悠瑪包括太魯閣那你們現在要求改善了那個報告都已經做完了嗎"},{"start":4494.301,"end":4515.131,"text":"你說泰魯閣嗎?普悠瑪跟泰魯閣普悠瑪那個都結案阿都結案了對對對阿泰魯閣結案了沒?結案了結案了都結案了阿結案之後你們有提出立即改善的安全議題對不對?有有有這個有追蹤好那現在改善了沒?來那個泰魯閣解散那個改善那個進入"},{"start":4518.111,"end":4537.341,"text":"有關台鐵的太魯閣案目前給的改善建議其中只剩一項那台鐵還沒有完成那其他的部分台鐵都已經完成所以也就是說你今天發生事故的原因然後你們經過提出的改善的要求他們也都改善了現在剩下一點"},{"start":4539.142,"end":4566.366,"text":"報告委員是的還有哪一點沒改善目前是有關於這個沿線偵測這一個義務入侵偵測告警的這個系統部分那台鐵局目前正在施作當中所以我們確定他在沿線的評估要裝設義務入侵告警系統完成之後那這個案子就會結案什麼時候會完成你知道嗎目前台鐵規劃是在今年的年底那目前是他提出來的這個計畫今年年底好"},{"start":4567.219,"end":4582.448,"text":"那我們從邏輯來思考就是說以前發生過的問題跟你們提出要求改善的問題未來這些問題都已經被排除掉了不會再有重複的原因再發生問題對不對"},{"start":4585.415,"end":4613.315,"text":"包委員是這一點其實就是未來有其他在沒有發生過的問題發生不可控或不知道那他們要去先做研究預防再次的發生那除了這個比較特別的像現在已經發生過的類似的案件以後我們要要求不再發生"},{"start":4616.482,"end":4633.368,"text":"報告委員是所以從你們的專業的角度去看他們改善的進度你們也要去qualify就是他確實有沒有要完成你們的要求我想這個是最重要的就是這叫做防範未然"},{"start":4634.517,"end":4636.078,"text":"那我再請教一下就是說現在捷運也有很多的狀況對不對"},{"start":4664.98,"end":4687.22,"text":"那捷運像之前臺中是吊備事件那或者是說臺灣機場捷運那個是西弦鋼條那邊有東西掉落所以你們在軌道上面或者是軌道上方有任何的異物現在你們都可以偵測得到嗎?他們都可以偵測得到嗎?"},{"start":4691.971,"end":4692.431,"text":"那要怎麼改善?"},{"start":4705.295,"end":4706.496,"text":"所以就在軌道上的是可以偵測到嗎對不對在軌道上方現在還不行在軌道上的"},{"start":4729.995,"end":4746.54,"text":"現在是可以偵測得到?掉進軌道裡面的東西是有可以藉由這個他現在的義務偵測系統去偵測到好那你們提出改善建立裡面有沒有包括就是說你只要偵測到他可以自動停止"},{"start":4749.813,"end":4775.596,"text":"報告委員以終結來講他目前的義務偵測是只要列車撞到義務他就會自動停駛自動產生緊急煞車停駛那這個是目前現有的那至於終結案我們因為目前還沒有結案所以相關的這個改善協議看到調備有沒有馬上停駛啊沒有因為這是高空所謂高空作業的義務入侵偵測義務入侵所以他目前是沒有這個機制所以現在在軌道上只要偵測到"},{"start":4777.23,"end":4786.254,"text":"他就可以自動停止是不是必須要列車就是撞擊到這個EU他才有辦法停止撞擊撞擊都已經翻車了撞擊諸位這樣子回答你滿意嗎因為軌道系統因為我們是調查單位我們不是他的目的是這款機關我們的建議希望他說譬如說剛剛講台鐵的部分"},{"start":4805.572,"end":4833.752,"text":"他要備預算他要當然當然這個我的意思就是說因為他是目的社會職業資管機關他要負責安全這個是必要的他的工作那我的意思就是說運安運安就是從你們以前早期的觀念是事後調查嘛那事後調查就有提出改善建立嘛改善建立就要去看改善進度嘛"},{"start":4835.192,"end":4852.951,"text":"改善的完成以後才不會再次的發生嘛所以這叫防範未然嘛那你們的改善建議要很具體他們要做的才能具體那我們未來才不會有相同的事情類似的案件再次的發生危險"},{"start":4854.62,"end":4879.38,"text":"這樣你們可以接受嗎?可以那是不是我們會如果他改善是是屬於比較長期的要編預算的我們會繼續列完到他的改善為止我們幫秦政委去把關對要啊是不編預算的也要看啊當然當然當然當然那我現在就是我們很清楚給運安會一個"},{"start":4881.92,"end":4882.4,"text":"事故發生再調查就完蛋了"},{"start":4912.836,"end":4936.042,"text":"我們要的是防範未然所以我希望運輸安全調查委員會這一個職責要把他擔下來你今天因為那發現他沒有完成沒有如期完成我們在這邊問你就可以講我們還是要去要求目的世界主管機關對不對這樣好不好事實上改善建議就是為了防範未然改善建議要追蹤進度到完成"},{"start":4936.941,"end":4964.356,"text":"對沒有錯好不好我的意思是這個改善建立提出來之後不是就沒事了你要追蹤進度到完成這沒問題啊我們因為我們常常行政院定期會開會我們會跟他報OK那我的意思就是說以前面已經發生過事故的原因你們發現之後改善建立之後進度完成之後相同的原因就不應該再發生再一次的悲劇嘛對不對應該是這樣子那你們要把這個職責擔下來"},{"start":4967.673,"end":4992.774,"text":"因為他照我們的改善信息之後,他的記錄列出來說我會...我知道你的意思,你都不跟你說一句話說OK就好了習委員講的要你建議他們改進了,你們要去追蹤有沒有做,他主要是這樣你就追蹤他有做你就完成,他沒做你要繼續追蹤嘛你繼續追蹤他都不做你要讓我們知道嘛,我們繼續追蹤該單位嘛繼續追蹤到他改善為止"},{"start":4995.356,"end":4996.537,"text":"徐富奎委員花言"},{"start":5029.899,"end":5034.313,"text":"謝主席還有有請我們的林主委好來請林主委"},{"start":5037.644,"end":5058.831,"text":"謝謝委員主委早主委早我想運安會的前身是那一份調查委員會對啦是對那針對我們這幾天這個有一個比較敏感的一個事件就是中國啟用M53東向W122、W123這個銜接航線的部分那因為我們民航局這邊認為"},{"start":5060.432,"end":5072.214,"text":"這個對我們金門馬祖的這個區域航線跟所謂的飛航管制會有所謂的複雜度增加的一個危機那針對這部分我們民航運安會是不是有掌握相關的狀況"},{"start":5074.289,"end":5098.515,"text":"我們是有在watch他啦,但是這個是屬於航管方面,而且屬於這個部地設施管機關所應該會去做處置的。主委這個本席當然也知道是民航局的優惠,但是就所謂的一個安全性的考量,難道我們運安會沒有責任嗎?"},{"start":5101.934,"end":5128.441,"text":"我們還不能講有責任但是我們會會會會monitor他對像陳如剛剛我們許智傑委員然後一直要求我們運安會要做一些的一些處理一樣嗎這個我想政府是一體的啊等這個所謂的有飛行安全考量的部分運安會應該是責無旁貸的我想運安會的功能不是只有調查事故也應該要有預防事故的功能這點主委認同嗎認同認同"},{"start":5130.982,"end":5155.422,"text":"另外請教主委根據本期調閱相關的資料就是我們臺灣一年的交通事故這6年大概成長了10萬件但是這個我們運安會的能量這幾年大概都維持一年一兩百件而已這個數字會不會太少"},{"start":5157.355,"end":5180.484,"text":"從另外一個角度來講是不是表示我們應該為了調查改善經驗有成效所以事故比較少所以看一體的兩面主委好像都自我感覺良好的行不是不是這個這個通報是來說我們會做分析啦但是有的有的屬於像很多台剛有委員講說像台鐵的一些事故有些通報真的是虛驚世間"},{"start":5182.005,"end":5183.846,"text":"我們的自願幫助系統本身也要發揮功能,確實。"},{"start":5213.505,"end":5214.205,"text":"主委有什麼看法?"},{"start":5235.971,"end":5249.062,"text":"我們這三年只有針對一個貨運業的安全管理機制做過一個所謂的議題研究這三年就只有做這件事情其他沒有針對其他的所謂的一個交通類別作用的一個處理我請應當組的組長來報告一下"},{"start":5255.403,"end":5272.972,"text":"委員你好有關這個重大關注議題在109年的時候那時候是我們想要仿效這個國外美國的做法所以嘗試發佈這樣的一個機制那這幾年來我慢慢把它變成再加上委員會的督促下我們把它制度化了像我們從今年開始的發佈的"},{"start":5275.014,"end":5302.152,"text":"運輸安全運輸感染建議的評估報告我們裡面就有安全議題的分析然後針對每個模組都有對應的安全議題那也有我們每年4月都會發布這樣類似的報告對因為就我們去年112年度一個運輸安全的一個改善的一個評估報告裡面也有提到所謂很多飲水人的意外還有我們所謂的一個漁港的一個漁工落海的意外那這些議題是不是應該也要做一個系統的研究"},{"start":5304.742,"end":5321.443,"text":"這個部分就是我們依據我們發布的感恩建議我們去中整歸納的一個比較值得關注的這個議題那這個部分我們會跟著我們感恩建議發布之後的追蹤機制感恩建議發布之後這些感恩建議每半年我們都會追蹤列管一次"},{"start":5322.163,"end":5345.84,"text":"這本席要求一定要做尤其像我們這個有漁工的這個很多的一個漁港的一個地方這也是事故頻傳這請列為一個重要的一個議案好不好沒有問題我們也會朝這個方向來做謝謝另外我想我們在業務報告裡面有看到所謂一個新型的一個運具事故的調查跟國際交流但是業務報告裡面沒有看到相關的內容這部分有進度嗎"},{"start":5347.39,"end":5349.933,"text":"這個我請工程組,因為這個比較會專業,我請工程組的里長、里組長來報告一下"},{"start":5365.031,"end":5380.154,"text":"報告委員我們的科技計畫總統有三大類別那第一個類別就是有關於新徐運具的調查技術跟國際交流那這兩項主要是我們的調查業務包含了運輸事故調查工程能量以及那個精進運輸事故調查人員的能量"},{"start":5382.466,"end":5411.386,"text":"好那我想現在媒體一直在報導我們年底有可能我們的國家火箭的發射廠會落腳在屏東我想我們的林國賢委員是屏東人他也很關心這個議題那未來我們臺灣的衛星的數量只會越來越多但是去年底我們主委回應太空事故調查的能量只有從空運組調來兩個人要處理這個事情這國際的事件這有夠人力是不是可以增加"},{"start":5412.906,"end":5432.67,"text":"這個太空事故調查這個確實是人力不足那我們朝...朝...欸...航空調查組的部分人自來支援事實上那個是如果真正發生太空事故的話人力是不足的主委我想我們還是要這個不管是人力還是相關的軟硬體設備要超前部署要不然這邊變成太空產業到現在連人都還沒到位會很離譜的啦對對要做的加油啦是是謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":5438.783,"end":5463.111,"text":"好謝謝習副委員接下來我們何新淳委員這個何委員還沒有發言以前啊主席特別提醒我們貴會包括主委在內上台要給禮貌你們通通三四個人通通沒有敬禮不是這個問題而是"},{"start":5465.541,"end":5484.16,"text":"希望你們以後因為你們也不常來立法院這是一個禮數另外一個主委能做到的就當機立斷回答你打了老半天把我們委員的時間都拖掉了即使就只有一個你們最後委員在請你們追蹤案子的時候"},{"start":5486.498,"end":5500.636,"text":"這是你們提出來的要他做的他做不好當然你們要監督啊這很快拜託主委就當機立斷把責任承擔起來好不好來繼續請我們何委員感謝主席的才事那我們請這個林主委好請林主委"},{"start":5506.346,"end":5529.392,"text":"委員對主委其實我們整個運營會都要積極而且要讓人民有感知道說我們有個獨立調查的機關是為國人的海陸空各項的安全現在剛剛許委員還講到未來還要發展太空產業那我們對相關的這個運輸的安全要讓人民有感覺到我們運營會是一個專業"},{"start":5532.165,"end":5552.15,"text":"量能夠而且獨立調查公正公開有夠專業的一個機關那所以我在你的業務報告裡面其實你說預期的這個施政績效其實對人民有感的有兩項我們重大的運輸事故的調查我們運安會要去發現原因發現這個事故"},{"start":5554.791,"end":5569.359,"text":"以後安全的改善建議而且最重要是後面這句喔協助各機關完成分項的執行計畫就是運用你們的專業給建議給各部會應該要改善什麼"},{"start":5570.259,"end":5590.976,"text":"還要做得到啦這第一個第二個人民會有感的是什麼你們還必須要強化安全趨勢跟預防性的安全研究技術就如同剛剛有委員提到的我們現在海陸空碰到的這些各式各樣的交通運具的這個模式那還有可能"},{"start":5593.477,"end":5615.448,"text":"會發生的事故的模式我們又如何去因應那我們才會相信說運安會是真正夠專業而且是能夠提供國人安全給各部會的一個有理而且合理而且做得到的一個建議啦我之所以用這樣子來開始講是因為呢 你是要做不好下去啦"},{"start":5616.688,"end":5633.714,"text":"臺中捷運在你的報告裡面有提到運安會呢告訴我們在去年的11月30號提出終結事故那時候是事實調查因為呢去年的5月10號發生的你光是一個事實調查從5月10號發生到11月30號來"},{"start":5637.856,"end":5658.536,"text":"我去年11月要求你們運安會才說要加速調查報告提出的時程所以好了我們去年11月17號公布所謂的事實資料收集及報告撰寫然後你告訴我說今年的5月會提早來公布正式的報告"},{"start":5660.458,"end":5685.051,"text":"我就問一下主委那今年5月我可以期待可以如期看到這個正式調查報告嗎?不過委員我們事實上調查報告的草案已經在4月份完成了那接下來要依程序齁要給被調查單位有30天的回覆的時間然後接下來就進入委員會審查30天的回覆時間所以5月到底能不能如期?應該來得及還是可以再提早公佈?"},{"start":5686.826,"end":5711.819,"text":"我們的調查報告查案確實是完成的那如果各單位的懸殊的意見如果比較單純的話那你們去要求啊你的報告啊整個調查報告啊這個時程是多久一年多欸我跟你講喔監察院已經在今年4月15號公告糾正有關台中捷運的這件事情的一個案文及調查報告"},{"start":5713.164,"end":5741.239,"text":"監察院已經出來了調查報告出來了你有看到嗎主委監察院對台中捷運這件事的調查報告你有看到了嗎你知道嗎我知道你知道嗎那你看到了嘛對不對那監察院在比你們短的時間裡面已經告訴我們因為呢職安署有職安署的責任台中市政府有台中市政府的責任然後呢台中捷運公司有台中捷運公司不對的地方"},{"start":5742.339,"end":5754.761,"text":"那事故列車的隨車員也有他沒有盡力的地方那他都把你拔書出來了監察院的終結的事故報告你看到了你覺得跟你們的方向有沒有一樣"},{"start":5755.794,"end":5782.489,"text":"事實上監察的報告跟我們的方向大概是一致的大概一致的吧那監察院已經出來了你們為什麼還要再等到今年5月而且呢歷時一年多因為我們的報告還要經過行政程序好那我請問一下行政程序那行政程序就是行政效率啊行政效率難道不可以好一點嗎所以所以我們會接下來會跟這個就是人民隊我們運安會是不是關了"},{"start":5783.63,"end":5784.631,"text":"我們可以協調可以把委員會加開加開委員會的處理"},{"start":5805.458,"end":5831.544,"text":"加開委員會的處理對我們委員會是一個月一次那麼各單位陳書欣我們可以電話寫來請他趕快報過來是嘛這個就是行政效率嘛沒問題啊這個時程為什麼要一拖再拖呢是對不對監察院的報告出來了那我再問你一次那你說監察院的報告跟你的方向差不多一樣那我可以期待5月份你提出來的這個正式的調查報告還有其他什麼重點嗎"},{"start":5834.09,"end":5862.457,"text":"我們的會比較detail因為資產署的報告當時我們還要做一些你們會比較detail我可以理解因為你們花了那麼久的時間在收集資料在寫所謂的爬書當時候發生的事實跟事後的一些細節這個我可以理解那我的意思是說那你建議該改進該檢討除了監察院剛剛我們已經4月15號看到的報告以外你們還有其他的重點嗎"},{"start":5863.319,"end":5869.502,"text":"主委我為什麼對運安會說真的我沒有信心為什麼來我們2022清水隧道事件的報告書也是你們運安會調查的也是你們提出正式的報告的你們有建議要裝義務入侵偵測系統跟隧道防護系統"},{"start":5891.414,"end":5900.945,"text":"剛剛許委員有提到你們建議了之後你剛剛回答的意思是說台鐵現在正在做但是你知道這一次4月3號花蓮地震花蓮地震那個鐵道上還是有一顆落石落下來大家都不知道為什麼大家都不知道為什麼"},{"start":5912.662,"end":5930.388,"text":"所以我們的建議有沒有有沒有到位這第一個第二個台鐵他現在等於他的安全跟專業到底有沒有能力去把整個你們的建議落實你們有再繼續督導嗎"},{"start":5932.529,"end":5939.291,"text":"有台鐵的那個有關軌道入侵的偵測設備我們還是在督導他可是他沒有辦法偵測到這一次花蓮地震那顆落石落下來啊連文工財部長自己也承認啊他們現在設計的系統監測系統並沒有辦法預知這落下來的那顆石頭啊那你們的建議是什麼還可以再怎麼改進"},{"start":5954.755,"end":5972.09,"text":"你剛剛回答其他委員是說我們可以監測到義務入侵而且要等到撞到了我們才可以讓他列車停死那我們難道我們對安全的現代化的最新的科技沒有辦法在落實碰到落實之前就偵測到就讓列車停死嗎?沒辦法嗎?所以表示之前沒有這樣建議嗎?"},{"start":5983.186,"end":6010.863,"text":"那不是很離譜嗎有建議但是他動作他比較慢台鐵因為他還要他說他還要編預算還要什麼這個我當然知道啊問題是我跟你講主委你再回去看你們的調查報告你認認真真的書面報告給我你真的像4月3號花蓮地震那一顆落石落到軌道上如果你有提出建議說希望在碰到異物之前偵測到就要停止"},{"start":6015.804,"end":6039.923,"text":"這個部分你順便報告給我我們好好的來談清楚因為就我的理解從之前運安會成立到現在每一項的正式報告裡面我在看的時候這個複合式的有沒有鐵路跟上面的公路的這個邊坡邊坡你們有建議但是呢因為地震的落實他可能不是只有邊坡的問題還有更上方的一個落實的問題你們到底有沒有本於專業有建議"},{"start":6042.49,"end":6053.561,"text":"這個我們好好的來討論以上好謝謝委員好謝謝我們何新淳委員接下來我們魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":6070.008,"end":6074.186,"text":"來謝謝主席有請我們定安會林主委好請林主委"},{"start":6079.232,"end":6102.905,"text":"委員好直接切入主題啦剛剛很多委員說了其實我覺得這個今天我看到運安會我剛剛很多委員問了我有一個心得啦所以運安兩個字如果我們這些官員只是求自己的好運求自己官位的一個平安這是我一種感覺社會最關切的事情難道你們一點的感覺都沒有嗎"},{"start":6104.065,"end":6127.2,"text":"民眾心裡在期待什麼你們真的會感覺是不是我不敢講所有人都很麻木到底怎麼回事啊事情在你們那邊沒有輕重緩急所有的大民眾關鍵事情不好意思啊我們現在事事查核半年之前完成了我們就一年之後才會給你看報告到底發生了什麼事經常會有完成的報告但是讓我感覺"},{"start":6128.72,"end":6156.328,"text":"整個政府讓民眾很難受就像我第一屆立法委員的時候看到台鐵公司太魯閣事件要求的改項事項幾乎90%還沒改善普悠瑪事件然後還沒改善太魯閣就弄完就是他什麼時候改善他發生多少事情才能夠感覺到積極所以我對應安會在這件事情的處理上面我個人是覺得非常不滿"},{"start":6157.248,"end":6176.545,"text":"5月10號去年的5月10號臺東捷運發生了這樣的一個事情那到了今年的4月13號你報告還沒有真正的一個結案報告還沒有提出來更別說按照你的結案專業的報告我們第一線的機關甚至監管機關他要改善的時間4月13號"},{"start":6179.198,"end":6202.634,"text":"我坦白講不幸中的大幸還好進入我們積極的那種義務不是很大型的造成停電12分鐘所以我是覺得我不知道大家有沒有敏感度沒有那麼敏感度像剛剛主委你也說我們大概跟監察院也差不多所以我是覺得這個積極的程度"},{"start":6203.942,"end":6206.144,"text":"這個委員講得對 比較社會關注度比較高來就比較關切我們確實要將換人力把他踢走 確實沒有錯"},{"start":6228.904,"end":6240.392,"text":"主委我想有一件事情我相信你也很積極啦可是問題是你要知道我們的委員中間所有的專家學友在這邊他確實都很有專業有沒有一些外聘的委員"},{"start":6242.32,"end":6262.556,"text":"對外聘的委員我直接講一件事我從地方講到中央我們有很多委員制後面都變成不負責任制為什麼呢大家都認為說某領域的專家我們承認他是專家但任何的專家任何領域的專家參加一個個案的討論如果他沒有針對於個案沒有讀書不讀書他只有50分"},{"start":6266.127,"end":6284.885,"text":"了解我意思嗎?100分 因為我專家嘛 我軌道專家你來 然後問什麼事然後提出一大堆問題 給他資料不看我跟你講過去我們在地方政府不管衛生環保專家來 忙得要死他根本沒有時間了解個案 像這種齁 如果"},{"start":6285.606,"end":6287.427,"text":"目前看到我們其中報告其實就兩點"},{"start":6308.558,"end":6323.592,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6323.752,"end":6344.972,"text":"是對於我們地方的軌道不管是現在武都有捷運公司的能不能自行來處理不管在軌道來做一個偵測系統或者有車載的一個偵測系統讓自己從我們這一端來防護義務入侵系統這是大概你們現在其中報告其實跟監察院也很類似"},{"start":6346.687,"end":6373.019,"text":"那你們現在的做法最後你們的報告希望你們針對現在五都他們有時候相關的一些做的程度完全不一樣有一些是針對建築在身體建造的過程中做管制但是有些不是要建築啊他沒身體建造啊或可能掉個掐具啊或者掉個什麼東西啊他不需要身體建造的我們現在好像看到台北市也對於像這種高空這個"},{"start":6374.58,"end":6375.181,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6403.384,"end":6403.605,"text":"最後一個"},{"start":6424.205,"end":6449.961,"text":"這個捷運軌道工程的所謂的自主的一個防護義務入侵系統正好我們上個禮拜請到交通部長跟鐵道局他們現在也是蠻頭痛的所以現在都他們覺得車載的部分現在到底有沒有實驗成功甚至放置在軌道的部分有沒有成熟的產品現在外界說法都不一我也希望我們運安會有一些國內外的一個專家"},{"start":6451.843,"end":6466.636,"text":"針對於這個部分這個部分啊即使在結論沒有辦法告訴他怎麼去做後面要去協助輔導到底有什麼樣的方法能夠來針對於義務入侵在軌道工程上面是很適用的"},{"start":6467.656,"end":6489.894,"text":"那是高鐵的系統適不適合現在鐵路做的預警系統適不適合還是全世界有哪些預警系統適不適合我們希望在事後結論之後我們的一些專家學者也能在一個協助的立場提供一些資料這樣可不可以可以可以沒問題我們照這個方向來做"},{"start":6491.115,"end":6492.176,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6519.283,"end":6526.747,"text":"主委早安我們看到目前在國道上的事故事件我們發現國道緩撞車為維護施工安全的緩撞車發生事故的件數一直在攀升"},{"start":6539.773,"end":6554.112,"text":"去年上個會期本席有關心這個議題所以那時候本席關心的就是說像這種車禍事故發生然後就我們運安會的一個事故調查的一個事故範圍的標準當然是沒有達到"},{"start":6556.235,"end":6556.475,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6574.506,"end":6574.526,"text":"．綜合會議"},{"start":6603.326,"end":6619.776,"text":"去年我們已經有立案調查了就是針對國道1號網大亞路段罪狀工程車緩撞事故這是我們立案的第一案嘛那本席先請教一下目前我們針對這一類的事故目前已經有幾案就是有立案調查的有幾案那進度如何"},{"start":6620.7,"end":6641.381,"text":"目前除了大雅路段這個有舉動調查以外還有4個類似的都是撞網說我們在蒐集那蒐集完之後如果他做大龍小鷹我們就會做分析所以你的意思是總共5案還是總共有5案目前我們立案之後我們的調查方向如何"},{"start":6642.196,"end":6665.389,"text":"我們調查方式像是這樣子,我們會分三個分組,一個是車輛分組,然後操作分組,還有屬於這個道路分組。道路分組會有交通建設、防範設施相關的分組。那這個這三個方式調查出來,如果說是屬於道路的安全主管機構,譬如說交通部,真的我們經營也會另外給他們。那屬於車輛部分就比較複雜。"},{"start":6666.83,"end":6666.85,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":6683.323,"end":6684.163,"text":"我們目前預計這個調查報告什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":6712.815,"end":6725.044,"text":"大雅的部分明年五月明年五月還蠻長的時間我們會加快因為我們現在所有的人力都調度在網站方面在調查我們會加快"},{"start":6725.603,"end":6752.962,"text":"是那如果說在這個調查報告還沒有出來之前就是說我們目前剛剛主委有提到嘛就是也會朝向就是車商的這個城市設計的問題嘛那個輔助駕駛的城市設計的相關問題那如果說我們調查報告還沒有出來我們可能沒有利基點或理由去要求車商做改善吧那這樣子是不是這個危險都還是前就是會這個存在著"},{"start":6754.935,"end":6772.88,"text":"我沒聽懂就是說我們的調查報告還沒有出來之前你沒有辦法去認定或判定說是城市的問題嗎車上也有可能說是道路的問題嗎是這個我們施工的時候的相關規範的問題所以你要如何去要求車上做改善"},{"start":6773.468,"end":6791.396,"text":"對,要等真正報告分析出來之後才比較確確,因為這個東西不能用猜測,還是要有證據。對阿,要有證據嘛,所以說在這個報告出來之前,那等於是說針對這樣子一個事故的一個預防發生,我們沒有其他的作為,沒有其他辦法。"},{"start":6792.731,"end":6805.942,"text":"目前我們是有跟交通部在開會的時候有請他對這方面相關就像黃狀車在公路上相關的管理措施希望他能夠加強這方面是有做"},{"start":6807.631,"end":6834.691,"text":"但是我們也就是說當然這個防撞車它必須在國道上的作用當然就是因為工程的需求為了維護這個整個道路安全的一個進行維修所以它也存在著很大的一個風險危險性所以這個類的事故一直重複在發生當然也導致這種防撞車它的很多保險就是會被拒保"},{"start":6835.231,"end":6862.635,"text":"那當然也是造成就是說他沒有辦法出車的話可能衍生的問題就是也是影響到用路人行車的一個安全我想這個都是息息相關的所以我們也希望就是說針對這個這一類的事故目前我們看到他的數字是一直在往上攀升的所以我們也希望就是說一方面這個調查報告能夠盡快的一個完成之後能夠有比較明確要求改善的一個措施"},{"start":6863.476,"end":6887.678,"text":"來降低這樣子的一個事故發生是是我們也是期望我查這個方向謝謝委員謝謝好接下來特別跟大家報告就是林進憲委員執行完我們休息5分鐘我們休息5分鐘再接下來再來執行好現在請林進憲委員發言"},{"start":6893.608,"end":6915.653,"text":"好,謝謝主席,不然要請我們運安會林主委好,請林主委安委好主委好,主委禮拜三喔,4月17號,臺南市發生了電動車啦,熄火啦,沒有使用中啦,停在公園,卻自己燃燒起來,你知道這個新聞嗎?"},{"start":6917.188,"end":6929.566,"text":"自然吶的電動車啊他停在公園裡面突然間吶起火燒起來了濃煙密布啊你不知道這新聞嗎好那我再來提醒主委啊電動車啦"},{"start":6931.727,"end":6954.898,"text":"自己燃燒其實已經發生好幾件2021年3月尤其是那種大車公車啦電動公車2021年3月桃園客運維修廠發生了起火燃燒燒掉了7輛2022年10月淡水客運總站不明原因燒毀了兩輛的電動公車所以電動車"},{"start":6960.256,"end":6983.001,"text":"起火燃燒這是一個非常危險的尤其未來我們正在大推電動公車電動公車目前全國大概佔了10%左右應該10%稍微多一點預計政府要補貼各地客運滿1萬輛一台大概都補助1000萬大概就1000億"},{"start":6984.369,"end":6992.388,"text":"所以這是政府重大的一個政策那電動車起火那到底什麼原因啊那運安會會不會介入調查"},{"start":6993.994,"end":7022.04,"text":"這個案子如果確實是越來越多的話我們會用這個第三目的包含條款會啟動所以你現在並沒有調查目前我們是在蒐集電動巴士從來沒有一個電動車列入立案調查還沒有我們準備要已經在準備準備要有希望我們要加快這樣的腳步因為電動車不管是一般的汽車或者是未來即將全面補助的電動公車全國是目標一萬輛"},{"start":7025.381,"end":7051.757,"text":"使用率、使用車輛數、電動車輛數都會越來越快、越來越高運安會去年有去美國考察我看到你們有寫一個考察報告美國運安會怎麼面對電動車美國運安會怎麼運作美國運安會有分為一般調查和特別調查其中特別調查它有一些主題式的調查"},{"start":7053.089,"end":7064.775,"text":"例如包含機車、房東車、包含校車,學生使用的校車的安全性很重要,以及電動車。電動車它包括了像自駕,電動車的自駕以及像這種電動車、電動巴士。那同時呢"},{"start":7074.127,"end":7096.399,"text":"運輸安全調查委員會自己的考察報告也寫到未來將要建立有關於電動車和自駕車的事故調查程序和法規也就是說目前我們對於電動車的調查程序沒有法規也沒有是不是這樣子我們看起來我們應該要對這個電動車要要趕快來制定一下對好"},{"start":7101.42,"end":7123.597,"text":"美國曾經調查過這種電動巴士起火雖然沒有造成乘客傷亡美國運安會也介入調查然後他調查說電池系統公車就巴士的電池系統如果受到潮濕就容易導致火災所以美國運安會要求電動車製造商"},{"start":7125.638,"end":7150.617,"text":"要告知使用者如果萬一遇到電子燃燒要如何滅火甚至美國運管會也要求製造商要提供有關安全滅火和車輛的資訊美國聯邦交通管理局就類似我們交通部的公路總局也因此撰寫相關的指南供給客運公司下去參考所以目前我們完全對電動車"},{"start":7152.378,"end":7153.018,"text":"去年4月去年4月"},{"start":7180.609,"end":7207.041,"text":"運安會可能是經過國會的關心就開始擬定重大運輸事故範圍的修正草案確實像你講的草則要擴大就是說降低啟動調查的門檻這第一個第二個就擴大調查的範圍方向去調整是不是這樣沒有錯但是有幾個相關單位反對第一個高工局反對"},{"start":7210.298,"end":7227.937,"text":"緊正署反對反對理由都差不多啦都說什麼你改變調查範圍會降低提供調查的門檻啦會造成他們的混淆通報上的混淆啦會造成啦什麼通報作業上的困擾是不是這樣"},{"start":7231.192,"end":7259.186,"text":"應該是不會啦不會會議上寫得很清楚啦這兩個單位的意見表達也是這樣子啦當然他們會反對啦盡量不要做事嘛你如果把門檻、凍結、調查範圍擴大警政署會增加嘛對不對公路總局、高工局也怕增加他們的事啊這兩個單位的反對會不會影響運安會對這方面的一個調整"},{"start":7260.787,"end":7276.881,"text":"應該不會違想但是如果啦如果說這個到時候這個重大運輸事務委員會的條子修正案沒有過我們還是一樣用這個報房條款還是可以我們還可以社會關注度報房條款我剛跟你說你智慧虎公你現在拿回來了報房條款你要用報房條款"},{"start":7278.904,"end":7292.341,"text":"不能自費無功啦,只要你認為可以調查就可以調查啦,你有這個報案聽完才笑嘛,所以這些當我反對是沒意義的啦,這怕事啦,本位主義,我們出去站在外面看啦"},{"start":7293.502,"end":7294.422,"text":"現在我們休息5分鐘5分鐘再開始"},{"start":7415.776,"end":7432.46,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7450.151,"end":7462.707,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7480.367,"end":7508.122,"text":"二、審查委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":7516.784,"end":7523.514,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7526.954,"end":7551.613,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7559.497,"end":7573.836,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7577.82,"end":7591.59,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7623.414,"end":7626.156,"text":"好,請官員請官員盡快就座來"},{"start":7648.585,"end":7650.348,"text":"林佩祥委員花言"},{"start":7662.698,"end":7690.563,"text":"主席請我們林主委上台好請林主委其實在第二頁的時候你有提到近期媒體關注的重大運輸事故好像漏了一個既然是我們是運輸安全委員會然後又理論上針對金門海巡跟大陸漁船之間的兩死兩傷的案子"},{"start":7691.448,"end":7713.245,"text":"理論上來講運輸安全委員會應該要介入應該要知情那請問一下目前來講以運輸安全委員會的權限跟你們的職責來講目前這一個2月14號金門海巡與這個大陸漁船之間的運輸安全的案子請問造勢原因為何那我們運安會有沒有什麼資訊可以提供給國人呢"},{"start":7716.182,"end":7729.769,"text":"這個範圍這個按照中央運輸事務的範圍裡面這個他是屬於執法過程他不在立案的範圍內不在立案範圍內因為理論我記得如果依照新聞報導在227號依照新聞報導來講的時候他說有第三方機構鑑定的資訊那應該第三方機構鑑定的資訊有沒有提供給運揚委員會嗎"},{"start":7739.505,"end":7759.157,"text":"我所聽說的好像是委託一個協會還是一些教授來協助那理論上這邊是有兩死兩傷的海運應該是水路的運輸安全出狀況不只是應該只有執法單位或海洋委員會知道理論上運安會也應該要知道一些事情對吧"},{"start":7760.254,"end":7789.333,"text":"我們有在瓦取有在馬里特但是就是說我剛剛講因為他這個是在執法過程中執法過程中產生的事故一般我們是不調查的我是希望說如果能的話運輸安全委員會畢竟來講這是二死二傷的重大事故那我會希望說未來如果說這方面的事有這方面的資訊麻煩提供給本席跟提供給國人因為這件事情到目前為止全世界都很關心"},{"start":7790.315,"end":7795.033,"text":"那不是只有說執法單位說的算理論上如果回到本質這是運輸安全的問題"},{"start":7796.705,"end":7825.201,"text":"第二個其實在第7頁的時候有提出我們運安會是會特別提出有關這個運輸安全的改善建議追蹤與列管那因為本席是基隆市選出來的民選立委所以本席對於今年4月3號強震之後雖然對基隆市的目前看起來對基隆市區的影響雖然不是很大但是事實上來講"},{"start":7826.922,"end":7846.655,"text":"在前年2022年11月1號國道在汐止交流道的時候就有一個走山的事件這件事情造成那時候的交通黑暗期長達一個禮拜還有另外一件事是2010年也就是14年前4月25號國山七土段走山的走山這件事情我想主委應該是記憶猶新"},{"start":7851.618,"end":7871.412,"text":"這兩個事情都是因為說國道上面因為是這個水土保持不好還是因為其他狀況而去走山而走山之後也做出來一定的一定針對性的強化措施但是這些強化措施在4月3號這次強震之後是否有所改善是否有所改變我想在這邊就叫我們運安會的專業意見"},{"start":7874.383,"end":7886.962,"text":"有沒有什麼你們要提出來的現在對於那邊的監測對於那邊的監督對那邊安全係數的保護甚至如果對於說附近附近區域未來是否還會發生同樣的事情請問運安會有沒有什麼準備"},{"start":7889.656,"end":7904.452,"text":"我們這個沒有調查但是我們有在注意這個新聞如果是屬於天災或是天災的例外然後屬於說對這就是我要提的應作為或沒作為他應該要做的那我們我們我我我不是"},{"start":7905.373,"end":7929.098,"text":"本期非常不希望是我們是在之後事情發生之後我們再來去談說早知如此何必當初這些事情已經發生過國一的走三國三的走三對於我們對於基隆市對於新北市都是很大的交通黑暗期都是很大交通危機而我們之前這些狀況如果在之前我們能夠做一定程度的預防跟處理"},{"start":7929.958,"end":7931.739,"text":"主委,您認為是這樣嗎?我舉個例子,像4月10號台鐵通報那個45次的普悠瑪在和平站,那有落實落下來嘛。"},{"start":7952.807,"end":7976.817,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7976.897,"end":7992.517,"text":"我找出他的發生事故的噪音我就提出改善建議嘛我希望他不能再發生但是他因為天然災害他天然災害發生之後我找出噪音我不能叫他不要再發生天災啊現在已經發生過了你們在那邊應該也有一定程度的預防跟監測但那邊的狀況"},{"start":7994.119,"end":8010.815,"text":"是不是如果說有任何其他的專業意見因為今天403這次的強震不是只有花蓮受到傷害其實全台灣的地址都要受到一定程度的影響那本席是鑒於說之前在兩年前跟14年前都在基隆在北部"},{"start":8011.175,"end":8027.772,"text":"我們一向認為說臺灣北部的研盤是相對比較堅固的但是就算再怎麼堅固還是發生了兩次走山那這件事情以運輸安全委員會的專業來講你們必須在這之前先提出一定程度的建議來去提醒公務局跟地方政府做出一定程度的改善不是嗎"},{"start":8028.793,"end":8050.081,"text":"對沒有錯我們將來本席在這邊建請說你們現在可以不用回答我給我直接回答說你們專業意見但是本席希望會後你們可以提出一定程度的預防措施預防的建議來跟中央單位跟交通部甚至跟地方政府來做一定程度溝通我們可以請交通部加強山坡地的監測或什麼這我們做得到我們可以這樣好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":8053.884,"end":8058.849,"text":"好,謝謝林佩祥委員。現在請廖宣祥委員發言。好,謝謝主席,麻煩一樣邀請我們林主委喔。好,請林主委。"},{"start":8078.696,"end":8092.849,"text":"主委好,這個我們國人對我們運安會可能都比較陌生,其實大部分的人了解運安會,大部分都是看一些國外的影集,就是之前有一些什麼飛機師式的一些影集,相信你也都看過。"},{"start":8093.55,"end":8114.045,"text":"我想確認一下我們運安會最主要的一個目的應該不是苛責嘛對不對是將事件發生過後一個重大交通事件過後然後我們去探討了解一下他事故發生的原因然後來提出報告避免下一次事故的再發生嘛應該是這樣沒錯吧是是"},{"start":8116.634,"end":8131.927,"text":"既然是要防止下一次事故的再發生就是說在我們調查的過程當中應該都每一天我們每報告提出來的之前的每一天其實都是一個潛在的一個風險對不對"},{"start":8135.109,"end":8151.85,"text":"因為我們看我們許多的運安會的檢討報告很多都拖了就是我不能講拖啦就是說調查的時間都還蠻長的一年或是兩年的一個時間那剛剛有聽其他委員詢問的時候我們大概一個月開一次會是不是"},{"start":8154.349,"end":8169.841,"text":"委員會是一直一個月開到委員會的審議的時候已經是在已經是最後階段最後階段了所以說就是業務單位可能收集資料一陣子了之後那可能資料比較完備了之後然後才提到委員會去對那個案子來做討論嘛對不對"},{"start":8170.922,"end":8185.917,"text":"是一開始的時候立案嘛那立案就要先前部隊去搜尋資料回來回來之後就開始做歸納那事實資料資料先出去然後開始進入訪談分析然後階段是很多啦"},{"start":8187.113,"end":8202.42,"text":"那我想確認一下就是在可能動輒一年兩年的這個過程當中會影響到我們調查報告出來要達到可能兩年這麼久的時間大部分的時間內部作業大概都是哪些程序佔用的最多的時間"},{"start":8204.758,"end":8225.643,"text":"事實上是在分析的階段最多分析的階段最多分析因為有時候收集的資料收了完之後當在分析過程中發現好像有一部分不太明確會回去再去收集所以都在我們內部嗎如果說我們跟其他平行單位要資料的時候這部分有時候會拖到時間嗎應該不會應該不會我們要資料應該都還蠻快的嘛"},{"start":8230.004,"end":8255.41,"text":"那既然都是我們內部在處理的話那就撇除到外界的這個可能那個增長我們調查報告的時間嘛那一個事故我們需要到兩年才能夠把這個報告交出來那我就會覺得是不是還要檢討的空間啊你們我不是在苛責你們而是說希望在整個制度下面我們能夠把這個報告的時間縮短那你會認為說你們"},{"start":8257.833,"end":8274.574,"text":"需要怎麼樣的一個協助或者說你們可以提出怎樣的經濟措施可以讓這個報告能夠再縮短一點比如說一個飛安的事故兩年如果說我們能夠縮短到一年那這個一年的時間那就確保了我們國人的飛行的安全多了一層保障是這樣沒錯嗎"},{"start":8276.004,"end":8304.059,"text":"一般齁一般外面的理解是這樣子說啊你這個是就剛剛委員講的怎麼這麼久齁事實上當我們解釋之後啦齁你發生事故之後我們要去收集資料然後開始要測試要研究要邏輯分析然後會找出根本性的噪音然後相關的風險也要去歸納去搜尋對不對那再提出對症的改善建議看起來好像我一分鐘就練完了但事實上他的過程是很長的"},{"start":8305.14,"end":8319.21,"text":"但是兩年也大家也會覺得太久了。看你這個案子是屬於一級案還是二級案還是三級案,不一定。那在國外也是這樣的類似的期程。那在我們的國情上是社會比較關注我們會加班的人力,加班或什麼。"},{"start":8320.691,"end":8344.586,"text":"所以不見得是就是每個月就一直硬梆梆說就為你剛剛提的12個月或18個不見得我們可以加速但是同時也會很辛苦好啦那個就要再拜託啦因為我看我們每一個組其實可以看到我們有不同的組別有航空、水路、鐵道、公路其實每一個組別的調派人力應該是不一樣的吧"},{"start":8345.575,"end":8365.022,"text":"大同小異例如說我們公路組有9個人但是因為抱歉我想指的是我們在報告上面可以看到其實每個組他的業務的負荷量並不相同包括去年大家說水路怎麼那麼多公路的案件相對比較少每個組的人力都一樣"},{"start":8371.304,"end":8382.907,"text":"所以我們有成立一個一個混合的解釋小組就是互相調配資源但是屬於他那個組的比較英文講比較懂得比較專業的的時候還是要尊重那一組"},{"start":8383.767,"end":8404.957,"text":"對啦我們還是期待啦我們期待啦我們如果說預算會需要資源或怎麼樣我相信立法院會支持那只是說在相關的事故真的我想我們可以解釋但是民眾都會有一個更更更更這個更好的一個期待希望把這個相關的檢討報告的時間能夠把它縮短我們再一起加油好不好麻煩主委是是是謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":8407.696,"end":8413.398,"text":"好 謝謝廖宣祥委員現在請我們蔡其昌副院長發言謝謝主席麻煩運安會林主委林主委副院長"},{"start":8435.697,"end":8463.079,"text":"主委我剛剛在辦公室裡面齁這個看了一下早上的質詢我覺得這個炮火算猛烈啦齁邏輯上我認為今天不應該這麼猛烈所以我今天啊就只有短短的5分鐘所以我想有幾個問題你可以認真來思考一下本席可以給你一個建議第一個我想齁這個我們舉一個例子就好這很多委員這個在探討那個時間就到底要給"},{"start":8463.639,"end":8493.167,"text":"運輸安全調查委員會針對每一個運輸安全調查委員會需要調查的案子應該給予多少時間叫合理那現行我們把它分級嘛第一級大概多少時間第二級我們現在是用這種制度那但是問題是這個制度這樣的分級方式是否社會大眾普遍理解立法院的各位委員普遍能夠接受理解所以這個所謂的合理性跟他的一定程度的透明度恐怕是需要加強那我在對比其他的"},{"start":8494.932,"end":8519.18,"text":"我們以凍結這個案子就好了所以你知道凍結的仲裁在去年年底我印象如果沒有記錯仲裁就已經宣判這個建設公司要賠台中市政府多少錢去年就已經仲裁結果出來那今年這個監察院的調查報告也出來"},{"start":8520.814,"end":8544.108,"text":"主委我其實很擔心一個我不知道會不會發生就是說你想仲裁也在查因為要仲裁要宣判他一定要對事實的本身他有一定程度理解他才可以宣判換言之在仲裁宣判的時候那個宣判者他對於這件事情的整個這個前因後果發生的狀況他一定有所"},{"start":8544.948,"end":8564.338,"text":"這個新政他一定有所新政有所了解有所新政他才能夠在仲裁上宣判再來調查的監察委員他也一定一樣跟仲裁委員一樣有一定的新政他也才能夠做出監察院的調查報告那現在問題來了我們是最後那一個啊萬一公布出來跟前面不一樣怎麼辦"},{"start":8567.011,"end":8585.467,"text":"主委你有沒有想過這個問題剛剛我有聽到你又回答說應該你跟監察院是差不多的阿如果有一天有一個調查報告出來你們是不一樣請問一下這裏面所有人民的信任所有可能涉及商務的賠償阿到底要誰會再遵守主委"},{"start":8588.574,"end":8606.659,"text":"監察院的調查的跟我們的方向是一致可是我們的報告比他細膩阿對阿萬一監察院沒有調查的部分你們有調查嘛所以只有一個報告那監察院有調查的部分跟你們也有調查的部分如果有一天出現不一樣的時候請問我們該相信誰的"},{"start":8607.509,"end":8634.785,"text":"因為他拿的這個resource的資料都一模一樣不可能會喔真的嗎主委你真有信心喔因為我們跟同一個單位拿的資料都一樣對對對但是我們的分析的角度會跟他當然沒有關係主委這個是你應該回去因為我只有5分鐘我其實沒有空跟你在這裡探討啦齁我只是提醒你第一個你想齁這麼多單位在調查再來這些單位source都跟你一樣他速度卻比你快"},{"start":8636.394,"end":8659.514,"text":"因為核心的問題要出來嘛才可以對這件事情做一個結案或了結嘛那你跟他不一樣的部分或許不是今天這個事件的問題核心嘛可是大家怎麼看運安會監察院跟你都同樣的受死你們調查出來結果一樣人家監察院為什麼可以速度比你快你的速度比人家慢這個叫做合理性的說明"},{"start":8660.285,"end":8684.742,"text":"就是運安會恐怕要花一點時間對國會對社會大眾對運安會你們的分級制度調查每一級調查的時間是否合理該被檢視然後這些調查報告如果不一樣未來不要產生爭議在立法院大家有人拿監察院的報告有人拿運安會的報告草野立委又因為大家這個不同又吵得說這個有政治力介入又什麼"},{"start":8685.745,"end":8714.942,"text":"我先防患未然啦就你們講運安會的每一個報告其實都在防患未然嘛對不對我也一樣先在這裡提醒這個也因為從終結這個案子就可以知道第一個我們速度最慢人家仲裁也判了要賠多少錢也判了然後的監察院報告也出來了哇阿當海阿現在純單運安會所以這個難怪大家會會質疑嘛好第二個部分我們所有的所有的這個報告啊"},{"start":8715.472,"end":8740.632,"text":"我們所有的報告每一次運安會的調查都是為了阻止這個下一個事故的發生這個其實是報告的精髓在這裡也是運安會成立或者在立法院代表民意的立法委員其實大家最關心的其實就是這個所以在我的看法上剛剛你都被白罵運安會我告訴大家"},{"start":8741.989,"end":8766.414,"text":"運安會對所有的行政機關我只要透過調查我認為你該改善的部分你沒有改善我告訴主委我如果是主委就對了這個部長哪一個部都一樣你準備要下台這個是人民生命財產的安全我運安會作為一個獨立機關我告訴你你要立即改善什麼避免下一個遺憾的事情再發生"},{"start":8767.813,"end":8794.128,"text":"我管理部長預算你要編幾年那是你部長的事情啊人命關天的事情在你部長的行政作為當中要排第一順位第二順位第三順位那是你行政部門的事我運安會只負責調查告訴你缺失在哪裡你該如何改善為什麼運安會主委今天站在這裡被立委罵站在這裡的應該是被你調查出來今天一大堆的理由包括預算不足人力不足一大堆的不足"},{"start":8795.492,"end":8817.122,"text":"不足我們就換一個能力好一點的部長或者局長或者署長而不是運安會站在這裡你是獨立機關你今天代表的是專業然後告訴這個行政機關你該怎麼做讓人民在任何空、陸、海各種運輸上面我只要搭乘"},{"start":8818.527,"end":8835.994,"text":"意外我不敢講但是只要大家按照規矩走那個意外發生的比例應該可以降到很低避免下一個遺憾避免下一個事故再發生這個才是大家對運安會的期許所以主委我的意思就要告訴你就是說齁不用做媳婦啦"},{"start":8840.489,"end":8857.688,"text":"你就很勇敢的告訴大家你要怎麼做,那是你行政部門的事情啊你做部長你沒錢,你要趕去想辦法,要去行政院爭取要發揮部長的能力,要不然我們請這麼多部長是要幹什麼就是要叫他們快點,這是人民、社民的問題,你要趕去想辦法去處理"},{"start":8859.049,"end":8885.53,"text":"然後呢時間主席已經站起來了比如說我不知道你們這樣調查出來之後如果這裡面涉及你看齁很多那個那個營建相關的這些公安啊我們都會用那個採購法101條把它移送對不對這些廠商怕得要死啊那運輸安全調查報告同樣一樣要這樣告訴行政機關或者你們想辦法自己來做處置就是對於如果像這些"},{"start":8887.343,"end":8893.617,"text":"運輸事故發生而涉及到這是施工的不良偷工減料施工設計不好等等"},{"start":8894.702,"end":8915.073,"text":"這個也應該要這樣做嘛我是不知道現在有沒有啦我只是舉個例子告訴你運安會應該要做到這樣這是人民的信任這是人民對運安會這個專業單位的信任所以我們要架構起運安會的權威跟專業這個才能夠確保人民的安全所有的行政機關這裡我覺得運安會說的他如果不緊張最好他每天去拜拜啦不然他準備要露台啊我跟你說"},{"start":8921.277,"end":8921.637,"text":"秋洛華委員花言"},{"start":8948.647,"end":8951.592,"text":"謝謝主席有請主委請林主委"},{"start":8957.578,"end":8983.523,"text":"主委好在我們運輸安全調查委員會的書面報告一剛開始有指出自從108年8月1號成立至今那運輸安全調查委員會執掌重大的事故調查還有透過系統性的調查完整發掘可能造勢的原因還有安全風險提出改善建議以防止類似的事件再次發生那本席這邊想要請教主委那通常調查報告還有改進的建議事項"},{"start":8985.043,"end":9012.813,"text":"如果主管機關不重視或是不認同的話運安會要怎麼因應主管機關不重視我們在行政院的定期檢討會裡面我會在會中提報行政院是管他的他會叫那個目的式軟機關要求他會譬如說台鐵他會列一個專案請他來報是那我這邊提到的是主管機關不重視或是不認同運安我們運安會就是"},{"start":9013.843,"end":9041.372,"text":"做出來的報告那你們要怎麼做因應我覺得我剛講這個我們會往上報因為我們也是行政機關他也是行政機關我們我們跟他是平行那由上面的行政院來督導他來跟他講沒有錯是因為這邊有說就是院會提出改善監議防止類似的事件再次發生那要是再次發生因為我們又開始看到有類似的交通事故的話那對於調查技術還有作業流程有沒有檢討和也有調整"},{"start":9043.137,"end":9063.863,"text":"目前為止還沒有實在難行,但是就剛委員提的,譬如說,譬如說水路,水路有漁水人的港口漁水人的一些作業管理的問題的時候,他一直在發生在發生,那我們就會跟交通部講說你這個制度有問題,他現在已經啟動了,像這種的,行政院也跟他講說這個是確實嚴重的問題。所以只是做到告知嗎?"},{"start":9064.703,"end":9087.223,"text":"對,他會告訴他沒有就是提出其他專業相關你們的建議以防止憾事再次發生我們甚至在去年去年由我本人跟我們的水路組的組長到交通部去拜會次長跟他開一個聯席會議那也告訴他問題之所在他們也嚇他們的次長部長也嚇了一跳說啊怎麼會這麼這麼嚴重或什麼他們已經啟動了像這種有得到預許的效果"},{"start":9092.162,"end":9113.619,"text":"OK那運安會解凍的解凍案書那報告中指出113年4月16號以擬定重大運輸事故之範圍修正草案出稿然後草降低啟動調查門檻還有擴大調查範圍方向調整那這邊要請教主委那在本席去年本席的選區桃園八德"},{"start":9114.179,"end":9139.089,"text":"就是有發生環保志工團千萬宜蘭旅遊那不幸有37人輕重傷的遊覽車翻覆交通案件事故那像這樣不幸的重大交通事故是什麼條件不符合調查的門檻還有範圍?這個案子有調查嗎?有有啟動對喔就是太平山方向這個對因為你寫這個我們的名稱不一樣不好意思這個有啟動調查對"},{"start":9140.396,"end":9166.825,"text":"這個有啟動調查那因為會有很多調查案件超過一年那這樣的調查效率是什麼原因造成的請主委說明剛剛前面也有提到啦因為我們一般外面的人就以為是說這不是很簡單幾個月就調查出來嗎事實上我們是有一定的誠信其實國外的一些調查其實也是這樣子但是對社會關注的案子我們當然都會特別加速我們也會加班然後調查把人力調拍過來"},{"start":9168.399,"end":9186.861,"text":"所以一年是最快的時間嗎?我們這個航空有分六級嘛,水路有分三級,那麼鐵道跟公路都分兩級。一級是18個月,二級12個月就調查完成。那特殊的案子會就剛剛報告過了,我們會加速腳步。"},{"start":9188.671,"end":9215.2,"text":"這樣子看下來最快是一年嗎?通常案件調查下來都至少要一年的時間?一般都是至少一年因為這個整個調查的階段齁這個階段我跟委員報告一下比如說我們如果把這個調查分成三大階段齁有調查階段有報告斷水階段有審查階段那在現場說證階段有比如說我機動小組去收集資料然後那個證據然後協調資料的收集要歸納"},{"start":9216.44,"end":9236.53,"text":"那有時候譬如說有發生事故我們去訪談當事人一訪談就訪談兩三個月因為因為碰到困難嘛什麼樣的困難就是就是有些人有個人隱私啊或什麼他會害怕嘛等等那那譬如說在報告撰寫的時候又跟著說要那議員會有想過要縮短這個流程嗎啊議員會有想過要縮短這個期程嗎這個流程對"},{"start":9240.712,"end":9245.017,"text":"主委您提到人數,那運安會的預算,預算原額是93人,UAP的原額就有71人,請問流動目前人員的流動率如何?"},{"start":9256.989,"end":9260.27,"text":"目前還好啦但是我們會有捉襟見肘確實人力不足沒有錯所以我們現在總理很多常常都在加班在調查"},{"start":9286.315,"end":9306.119,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個是正確的我們要的幾個委員我們通知他來interview他衣服很好可是他說不要我要去台積電台積電薪水比較高我找不到人那主委要不要透過鏡頭喊話一下就是說目前我們運安會非常需要人才謝謝委員好謝謝邱樂華委員接下來請游浩委員發言"},{"start":9325.405,"end":9327.527,"text":"謝謝主席,有請主委好,現在林主委"},{"start":9342.708,"end":9361.65,"text":"阿維好林主委你好那本席其實剛才就是一直的我在聽您的就是回答那其實過去來講的話您也做過這個民航局的副局長那其實在相關航空或是海運等等以及在研究方面您也是專業那"},{"start":9363.972,"end":9388.001,"text":"其實聽起來到現在,大家許多的委員在聚焦的,包括邱樂豪委員剛才所關心的議題,大家其實大同小異。就是如何能夠來協助這個或是在關心運安會,怎麼樣能夠更加符合大眾的期待。那其實剛才林佩祥委員也提到,那其實在運安會本身在權力跟調查範圍之內,"},{"start":9389.241,"end":9401.034,"text":"是不是不行查、不能查、不敢查在金門撞船案的部分為何運安會沒有辦法主動進入調查請主委回答應該沒有什麼"},{"start":9404.382,"end":9431.444,"text":"那時候你在接受記者訪問時就是也直接講這個非運輸安全事故本來是建議如果說運安會在於一個事故的調查有他的專業性在本身就應該要直接的接入調查還因為大家是專業那不要讓政治凌駕專業"},{"start":9432.785,"end":9454.5,"text":"可不可以應該沒有政治領教專業嘛,我們從來沒有考慮過,我們獨立專業該調查就要調查好,沒關係,反正我在本期還是以這樣子期許,因為相信預案會請許多在這裡的,包括各位長官,都是在許多領域的傑出的,不管是實務或研究上都非常傑出的人士"},{"start":9455.02,"end":9475.891,"text":"那所以說在於運安會本身的業務來講大家都還是有諸多期待那同樣的剛才在終結的部分因為也還沒有結案那許多的委員也提到了時間的標準那想請問一下在精進這些所謂立案調查的這些事故來講如何能夠更精進以及更加速"},{"start":9478.156,"end":9498.613,"text":"我剛剛報告過如果是比較社會關注度比較高我們當然會加速啦我們人力會調配啦其實主委我跟您回復一下其實這句話你剛才重複很多次但是如果說今天來講是人力還是經費還是影響到整體的調查量能那其實就需要提出看如何來去精進"},{"start":9499.614,"end":9523.78,"text":"那因為其實就舉例來講這個資料上面大家都有看到就一個竹塘鄉公所還有一個幼童專車還有交通路有撞車禍的一個公路事故那他在去年的11月21號那在今年還在進行調查到明年5月才能夠最終完成調查報告將近一年半到兩年的時間"},{"start":9524.4,"end":9535.547,"text":"沒有錯,任何一個案子都有一定的標準程序對,都有一定的標準所以這個到底是人力不足因為目前編制來講20人加71總共91人那在人力上面是不足"},{"start":9537.113,"end":9563.805,"text":"基本上應該是不足的像我們公務我舉個例子像我們公務組一個一般的案子齁一般一個案子一個案子大概1.6到1.7的人力單量所以他事實上調查不是就一個人來調查所以主委我本期還是建議人力不足的話就看如何反應如何精進因為其實我相信運營安會大家都還是有期待在座那麼多的長官他們也需要多一點的研究人力多一些的就是在"},{"start":9564.605,"end":9589.853,"text":"這些不管是專業的或是約聘的人士他們能夠協助讓報告有更快的產出因為其實在許多的重大事故就像被列在上面的時候那他所代表的就是一定是社會所關注的嘛那社會所關注的不會在一年兩年還其實這樣子來講其實第一那個時間點大家本來都一直在關注這不是在拖時間這是希望能夠趕快來協助這些案子有更清楚的說而且他所涵蓋的面向需要公通的機關那麼多"},{"start":9590.453,"end":9606.34,"text":"那所以你剛才有提到說那這樣子要同仁加班我相信本席跟許多委員在這裡不是要同仁來去做加班來解決這問題而是在運安會來講在人力不足上專業人才不足上如何能夠用更高的一個薪水能夠去請他們來比如說他們去台積電這樣就結束了"},{"start":9608.041,"end":9623.281,"text":"我是希望說這些人才怎麼樣能夠到運安會來怎麼樣協助這個量能來去做改善能夠讓許多的一些專業的研究包括能夠更快的能夠出來以回應社會大眾的期待我是希望主委能夠去思考這個部分對謝謝委員的指導那預計如果這個部分來精進要怎麼做"},{"start":9625.285,"end":9627.747,"text":"謝謝有號委員請林建琦委員"},{"start":9665.674,"end":9682.108,"text":"蘇組長"},{"start":9682.688,"end":9708.716,"text":"還有曾組長有一些東西我們想做個討論那所以也請兩位組長這邊是不是如果我們講到的這個業務上可以有些討論的話也請這邊幫我補充一下主委是這樣有件事本來是沒有想提可是因為前面的郵號委員這邊提過了所以我就也跟著提那我知道您因為在非安的部分很專業那這整個組織也是從非安這邊"},{"start":9710.536,"end":9738.051,"text":"轉型那也期待在整個運輸方面做得更好所以這是我為什麼今天也想來跟大家做個討論所以剛才由浩委員講到之前海巡署的就是跟我們知道金門撞船的這個事件那當然在第一階段其實那個時候討論的很多那我這邊其實早上也很感謝你們聯絡的人我有跟大家做一些交流那我說第二階段我們的觀光船不是後來被就是大陸友上去做一個檢查嗎"},{"start":9739.167,"end":9768.507,"text":"那我在想說那如果觀光船那個時候沒有大陸要上來檢查然後我們不要說逃逸啦我們就也不願意讓他們檢查的時候那那時候如果觀光船跑的話然後大陸船追的話他可能又變成另外一件事情那這件事情到時候應該怎麼辦那當然還會有很多段因為中華民國在管很多事情都分成很多段那這個很多段中間的一個媒合就會有一些問題"},{"start":9769.367,"end":9791.87,"text":"那為什麼會這樣講呢?因為我25歲的時候就已經考上觀光局的這個我拿到了那個觀光局的這個動力小船的執照那但是因為你們的這個依據的法規裡面就是說300噸以上的你們才會處理所以我經常會想說那如果在台灣沿海有狀況的時候那到底誰可以真正來救我"},{"start":9793.931,"end":9820.202,"text":"然後最近呢我自己也是帆船選手所以我對於海域非常的關心那我早上聽起來說哇天啊那海域的那個安全事件這個我們現在應該會處理的可能比較無力然後能夠解決的是最少的所以我想在這邊未雨綢繆那因為在水域我們需要很多的這個體力所以我也常常在路上練習"},{"start":9820.902,"end":9843.754,"text":"那這個我常常在公路騎自行車那所以在3月22號總質詢的時候我也跟院長提到了自行車那個相關的這個問題所以我今天有兩個請命齁一個是長步道運輸安全之規劃建議那早上也有委員這邊提到雖然你們都是針對已發生的重大事件做調查"},{"start":9844.734,"end":9871.803,"text":"那這個我在國外的很多的博物館也看到很多沉船那大家都想知道沉船的原因那真的調查出來其實對於後續那個海域的了解或海域的變化其實是會有很好的協助那所以運安會做出來的這個一些調查結果確實能夠給後續的很多幫忙但是如果能夠有些東西未雨綢繆的去處理那可能就讓很多人能夠"},{"start":9872.843,"end":9900.12,"text":"減少很多人在那個危險的狀況當中這是我很期待的所以在3月22號我有跟院長這邊請命就是說長步道的這個安全我待會可以秀幾張照片給各位看一下那如果可以其實可不可以幫我們協助一下就是自行車我們現在雖然喊得很大那之前觀光局也有觀光署也有一些公告但是說實在自行車常常是在一個很危險的狀態上在台灣"},{"start":9901.321,"end":9902.623,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9916.34,"end":9918.801,"text":"第二項請問就是我們可不可以研究臺灣的福爾摩沙島的"},{"start":9938.647,"end":9967.378,"text":"水域的浪跟流對水域安全之規劃建議我們近海就好了就是臺灣的近海區你知道我們在臺灣的近海區唯一對我們的浪跟流目前有研究的是英國人在上上世紀所研究的資料所以那個運安會可不可以在不僅是在水域部分你們那個凍結案的很少那可不可以未雨綢繆的幫我們在水域的部分可以給我們一些安全的參考"},{"start":9968.158,"end":9987.366,"text":"這是我一個建議那最後可不可以要求那個運安會給我一項資料就是你們在水域從自從變成運安會要處理水域的相關事件可以給我一個表列跟內容我想了解一下目前你們沒有辦法處理跟結案的這個水域事件有哪一些或許我們可以再進一步來探討好謝謝謝謝昭薇謝謝好謝謝薇謝謝"},{"start":9996.302,"end":9996.782,"text":"林信得主委"},{"start":10016.426,"end":10034.132,"text":"主委好 主委本席要特別跟您就ADAS先進駕駛輔助系統也就是我們所謂的自動駕車系統這樣子的一個事故來跟你做討論喔臺灣跟其他國家最大的一個不同在你的報告裡面有寫到是什麼針對這個自動駕駛輔助系統其實有"},{"start":10040.427,"end":10043.108,"text":"臺灣跟其他歐美國家最大的不同是因為我們有所謂的緩撞車"},{"start":10067.961,"end":10067.981,"text":"三、"},{"start":10094.707,"end":10114.096,"text":"三百四十七件那有幾件疑似是使用自動下駛輔助系統事實上三百四十七件裡面有五十趴是三百四十七件裡有百分之大概有一半他是車子本身有裝ADAS的然後裝ADAS那一部分有大概有五十二趴左右齁"},{"start":10115.509,"end":10133.495,"text":"他當時是有開的對所以有一半以上對不對對對對三百多件有一半以上就是將近快兩百件是用這種自動駕駛輔助系統然後有撞的那你今天的報告在第三頁第四點裡面也提到其中一個案例就去年的11月30號"},{"start":10135.035,"end":10149.001,"text":"自用小客車在國道1號北上的路段因為造成前面的工程緩撞車的一個撞上然後12月開始來做一個調查今年7月會了解事實的資料報告"},{"start":10150.356,"end":10164.41,"text":"本席其實跟交通委員會在過去在去年也就已經有討論緩撞車被撞的事故為什麼因為這一年有一兩百件啊你剛剛自己也親自承認了一年有一兩百件所以這問題大不大本席認為蠻大的"},{"start":10165.931,"end":10194.438,"text":"如果說一年有一兩百件的話那代表是說這樣的一個事故不是單一而是可能各廠牌的自動駕駛輔助系統對於這個緩撞車都很難辨認那很多人都已經提出來甚至媒體都有報導了那我們現在想問因為去年的代理主委有講是說車輛管理範圍在交通部啊馬上被批評之後又講是說會收集相關資料跟交通部來盤點法規那我想請教現在運安會到底有沒有在做這一件事情"},{"start":10196.147,"end":10202.216,"text":"要檢討到什麼時候?要什麼時候開始檢討?什麼時候才能夠真真正正讓國人了解到?"},{"start":10213.789,"end":10223.777,"text":"因為你們現在運輸安全調查委員會立案調查但是天天上國道的這些承包商在緩衝車上面施工的人員緩撞車前面施工的人員還是提心吊膽啊為什麼會有緩撞車"},{"start":10230.253,"end":10246.707,"text":"是因為以前在國道上面施工的人員他其實施工來講非常的緊張那後來造成很多的這種車輛的一個致命的狀況之後交通部大夢初醒才覺得說哇真的很嚴重所以才強制國道施工要有緩撞車這邊來"},{"start":10248.849,"end":10273.896,"text":"保護施工人員的安全那就沒有想到因為緩撞車的一個出現然後現在有自動駕駛的輔助系統反而很多的駕駛者他可能便宜行事或說他可能沒有遵守這個使用規定當然這個是駕駛的責任我們予以追究但是重點在於是說會不會現在有個盲點就是自動駕駛的輔助系統確實沒有辦法辨認出緩撞車也導致於說他完全沒有減速就直接撞上去"},{"start":10274.716,"end":10280.886,"text":"那一年已經有一兩百件可能疑似自動下車服務系統的狀況那我們到底什麼時候要解決"},{"start":10282.487,"end":10304.838,"text":"我所知道交通部已經在研議已經在討論A大是車輛的一些設備的管理不是啊他們已經開了三次會不過我如果這個太慢了對重點是太慢了還有還不季節還有每天國道都還在施工那還有重點在於是你覺得這個越南會沒有責任嗎我覺得這個越南會才有重大責任為什麼一年有一兩百件"},{"start":10306.363,"end":10328.215,"text":"一兩百件這個車直接撞上去那這每一個車可能都是一個重大的一個車禍重大人命事故啊我跟委員報告我們今年6月4日這個報告出來之後我們就會緊鑼密鼓會還有半年時間我會跟交通部開會跟他講說我會不會太慢主委主委你敢說我不敢聽拜託你真的你這句話我拜託你收斷去真的不要"},{"start":10335.639,"end":10357.94,"text":"對不要吸皮笑臉我很實在話講本席今天為什麼會在這裡在這質詢就是因為媒體已經報導而且國內大家也看到台灣跟其他國家比較不一樣為什麼其他國家沒有這種撞上就是因為這個蠍子車在其他國家可能比較沒有這樣的一個車型那會不會是這些車商的這個雷達裡面沒有判讀這個車子"},{"start":10359.534,"end":10386.645,"text":"那除了說找這些車商幾大智慧車、電動車的這個車商來去做討論說是不是應該要把這樣的一個車型納入他們的行車電腦裡面去做判斷找他們來喝咖啡但是現在還沒有一個強制力那本席也想了解或是說國人大家也想了解說到底是不是這樣的原因那以及每年都會發生你剛剛自己講的數據都有200件左右的這種直接追撞的事故"},{"start":10387.947,"end":10408.354,"text":"那你如果說今天沒有辦法有一個明確的不管是法令的一個討論不管是交通部大家的討論的話你沒有辦法阻止啊每天只能就是看祈禱大家不要當成是下一個受害者但是請主委向洪孟楷委員這邊說明主委本席特別特別要求特別要求第三頁"},{"start":10411.397,"end":10436.347,"text":"你第4點已經講了今年7月事實資料要報告還明年5月才完成最終調查報告現在4月然後你跟我講明年5月完成最終調查報告說實在這在受到喔我剛剛已經報告過大家都在上太空我們不要我們的運安會還在殺豬公我事後我把一些詳細資料給你報告"},{"start":10437.765,"end":10459.519,"text":"不只跟我報告,重點是怎麼樣提出來,然後防範,然後找大家來討論是是是,沒問題那請提供書面給所有的本會委員是是,謝謝主委,本期會繼續追好不好,拜託我是幫大家請命不管是幫國道的施工人員,不管是幫我們國道上的駕駛者找出問題,解決問題好不好是,謝謝謝謝"},{"start":10465.009,"end":10465.849,"text":"謝謝紅夢凱委員接下來請黃國昌委員好請主委"},{"start":10494.058,"end":10513.157,"text":"主委在上上屆國會的時候成立國家運安會我是大力支持為什麼大力支持那個時候發生一件大家都很心痛的事情就是普悠瑪的事故從普悠瑪的事故以後這個國家這個社會認知到獨立的調查"},{"start":10514.378,"end":10529.603,"text":"有多重要特別是在有關於交通主管機關他們針對會牽涉到非常多型的安全問題的時候怎麼樣獨立、客觀、專業提出意見這是我們當初對運安會的期許"},{"start":10531.784,"end":10550.879,"text":"我今天要請教的問題是說在普悠瑪事故以後台鐵推出了一個行列監控4.0那這個行列監控4.0卻跟科發基金我們的國科會要了6千萬要了6千萬的補助"},{"start":10552.08,"end":10577.253,"text":"要6千萬的補助也不是台鐵自己做我們台鐵彷彿成為一個轉包中心去拿6千萬了以後轉交給一個公司叫做李立系統公司這件事情主委知不知道我不是很清楚但是如果不是很清楚的話請回去搞清楚"},{"start":10578.51,"end":10605.988,"text":"你如果不是很清楚的話請回去搞清楚他這個案子是這樣子他在去年的1月13號有召開研討會他邀請產學界的專家還有國科會台北局都有討論他目前這個還是屬於測試階段我就簡單問一個事嘛從運安會的角度來講花了6千萬搞了這個東西有用還是沒有用"},{"start":10607.438,"end":10617.614,"text":"有辦法滿足我們當初對於台鐵所提出來的質疑有沒有辦法真正的能夠提升行車的安全"},{"start":10619.16,"end":10643.001,"text":"從運安會的角度來講主委也說了嘛運安會開了研討會嘛那天研討會大家的意見是什麼台鐵搞得這個行控4.0好棒棒大幅提升列車行駛保護乘客的安全性還是根本沒有用花拳秀腿浪費納稅的錢圖利特定的廠商你們研討會的結論是什麼"},{"start":10647.423,"end":10676.465,"text":"我們把一些紀錄給台鐵局參考我認為這個還沒有達到真正的效果什麼叫做還沒有達到這個效果有用沒有用啊目前看起來是沒有沒有顯示這個就是我今天要提這個質詢啊最主要的目的花了6000萬補助了一個莫名其妙的廠商結果沒有用納稅的錢啊不是這樣花的運安會站在你們主管機關的立場"},{"start":10677.864,"end":10705.029,"text":"就要站出來告訴國人運安會反對台鐵這樣胡搞瞎搞扛納稅人資卡花了6000萬做了什麼東西出來從運安會的角度來講根本沒有用這個是我當初期待我們成立運安會的時候運安會要本於獨立要本於專業的立場告訴全體國人的事情我為什麼這樣講"},{"start":10708.016,"end":10721.503,"text":"這個履歷系統政治關係很好拉了一堆政治人物幫他們背書啊結果搞到他們自己的創辦人自己都跑去國務發會裡面負責亞洲矽谷計畫結果我們的經濟部2020年給他什麼給他優良廠商"},{"start":10731.821,"end":10745.131,"text":"獲獎的理由是什麼我跟主委報告一下主委說你不是很清楚嗎我報告給你聽獲獎的理由是他有參與美國佛羅里達州Jacksonville市自駕快捷系統"},{"start":10746.4,"end":10774.103,"text":"我看了這個覺得很了不起啊我國的廠商竟然打入了美國的自駕車市場啊這件事情我們一定要好好的鼓勵啊結果我那時候回到民間社會啊我接到檢舉啊說這根本就是假的這得獎的理由從頭到尾是假的為了實事求是啊我主動我們協會跟美國的Jacksonville Transportation Authority聯絡"},{"start":10776.404,"end":10799.27,"text":"說欸這個李立啊參加你們的請問參加的狀況是什麼結果主委你知道我得到的回覆是什麼嗎這是錯的這個是虛偽不實的This is false這個公司啊跟我們市的這個自駕車的系統沒有任何契約關係也沒有參與結果我們能夠進軍國際市場是好事啊"},{"start":10803.854,"end":10817.268,"text":"拿在外國捏造的理由台灣政府還頒獎給他這就是天大的笑話結果拿了這個獎的關懷拿了什麼事情在國內拿了一堆補助"},{"start":10818.736,"end":10839.543,"text":"結果自駕車臺南的宗旨臺中的宗旨都拿了好幾千萬現在台鐵的這個行控4.0連你們自己運安會啊我掌握到的狀況炮聲隆隆啊對他的專業性可行性安全性跟現在的系統是不是重疊"},{"start":10841.092,"end":10867.452,"text":"能不能夠增加輔助的功能全面批判那我就有興趣啦如果是全面批判的話花了6千多萬到底是在扛誰之愷啊主席站起來了我尊重主席啊請主席會後從運安會專業的角度排鐵行控4.0到底有沒有用還是亂花錢提出運安會的書面報告可以嗎"},{"start":10868.578,"end":10868.838,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":10899.892,"end":10901.653,"text":"好,謝謝黃國昌委員,請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英發言,謝謝主席,請主委請主委委員好"},{"start":10923.777,"end":10939.995,"text":"委員會是社會大眾非常期待的所以因此我們要討論這個議題是運輸事故的調查法律是針對於一定數量的人員的傷亡"},{"start":10940.776,"end":10941.076,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10961.431,"end":10987.939,"text":"各個運具的一個系統的重大運輸事故呢相當有爭議相當有爭議所以換句話說你們的角色非常的重要那民眾認為他是重大但是我們認為不是比如說二月份在宜蘭東山發生的這個珍珠一路的這個事情那你一台頭版車就撞了十幾台就這樣子"},{"start":10989.219,"end":11008.238,"text":"導致人員的傷亡所以本席要請教這算不算是重大的運輸事故請教因為目前社會大眾跟你們的認知差距非常的大本席不希望我們民眾所需求的是得不到政府的一個資源請做說明"},{"start":11010.087,"end":11033.6,"text":"這案子我同仁跟我講這案子沒有啟動沒有立案所以我要告訴你這沒有立案但是社會大眾認為這是你們好好冷靜去思考接下來因為我們希望的單位是民眾所需而且他認為是怎麼樣那你們是不是有調整的空間有沒有調整空間不要讓社會大眾無依無靠"},{"start":11034.58,"end":11057.687,"text":"這是非常重要所以我們也看到很多的運輸潛在的風險那我們是不是要怎麼樣什麼時間點去介入啟動調查的門檻跟範圍這是本席跟你討論的第一個議題你們去思考很多的案子社會當中認為他是重大而且傷害的那麼大損傷的那麼多"},{"start":11059.926,"end":11075.169,"text":"但是我們都認為不是所以我也希望你們去盤點你們家你的範圍你們的量能到底是怎麼樣去盤點看看好不好因為我本席一再說的是民眾需要的你盯一個民眾用不到的你盯那個要做什麼"},{"start":11076.124,"end":11103.471,"text":"對不對好不好你們去盤點嘛多久時間可以告訴本席你們有調整的這個方向是調整或者是不調整那這個方向多久時間盤點出來我們目前是用兩個方向啦就是我們重大運輸事故有一個範圍他是法律規定的那我們才會修法那修法我會調整他啟動調查的但是你要先把啟動調查先拿出來啊我會擴大他的調查範圍"},{"start":11104.571,"end":11108.797,"text":"現在就是沒有辦法應對民眾的需求嘛,所以我給你功課,你們去調整嘛,多久時間?"},{"start":11124.984,"end":11126.805,"text":"本席要請教的也就是你們運安的這個費用比如說"},{"start":11149.145,"end":11177.056,"text":"你的水路事故調查243萬4千你的飛航445萬2千你的業務調查646萬6千那你除了運安會除了執行調查之外你也必須要拿出改善跟建議啊以及追蹤跟成效啊所以本行告訴你說整體交通的運輸改善案件你們去年你們去年8月份是65.2%"},{"start":11178.857,"end":11178.997,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11199.093,"end":11205.054,"text":"本席也把你的預算告訴你那本席強調重點是在怎麼樣建議跟追蹤改善的這個成果你順便資料給本席最後一個議題我功課給你自駕剛剛你回答我們的委員說我們國內的車子還沒有那麼跟國際怎麼樣錯了錯了"},{"start":11226.567,"end":11245.898,"text":"主委我們國內是因為沒有完整的自駕車的規範以及防災機制這個就是我一直給你建議的運安會應該要有建議那我們人民都已經有這個需求而且在社會在大陸上面都在執行了"},{"start":11247.026,"end":11262.916,"text":"對不對那我們要怎麼辦呢你到目前為止你還沒有完整的自駕車的規範跟防災機制啊那你總是至少你要拿出世界各國他們目前執行中的嘛你們去研討嘛對不對"},{"start":11264.675,"end":11292.811,"text":"主委再請提供書面資料和相關報告其他主委對不對你要提出自駕車事故防範改善的方案的可行性嘛對不對你應該要因應未來我們自駕車趨勢發展的相關規劃嘛你應該要設一個專案好好去討論嘛這才是民眾要的啊你不能說你現在沒有跟世界接軌誰沒有跟世界接軌"},{"start":11294.782,"end":11303.409,"text":"對不對?路上已經在跑了沒有跟世界接軌那什麼叫做跟世界接軌?對不對?哪有一個運安會這樣子的一個論點呢?這就是我結論跟你說的民眾已經在執行民眾有需求運安會應該挪一點時間跟能量去討論去建議去綜合規劃嘛對不對?這才是民眾所需的啊"},{"start":11323.107,"end":11334.981,"text":"針對於自駕車的部分本席也要求你們去提出自駕車事故改善的一個規範的可行性改善方案的可行性可以嗎"},{"start":11335.985,"end":11336.906,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員下一位請羅志強委員"},{"start":11370.99,"end":11392.904,"text":"主席有請主委請您主委請問主委你有掌握到上個禮拜一個新聞波音工程師控787客機製造超捷徑恐解體墜機呼籲全球停飛這個新聞你有看到嗎"},{"start":11394.024,"end":11408.038,"text":"知道根據報導有夢幻客機之稱的波音787被波音公司工程師他今年1月向美國聯邦航空管理局提出指控"},{"start":11409.339,"end":11434.914,"text":"稱自己發現波音787存在飛機結構完整性的工程問題那波音在787的機身組裝過程中減少步驟造成機件機身零件在組裝時未能正確填補微小縫隙此舉可能縮短飛機壽命而且隨著飛機老化風險會變成災難性的故障那美國"},{"start":11436.335,"end":11464.791,"text":"聯邦航空總署證實在進行相關調查出席參議院國土安全委員會聽證會被問及的時候他的回答是就他們目前所知全世界787機隊都要注意需要檢查縫隙並且確保不會提前發生故障我想請教一下主委運安會統計當中臺灣的航空公司機隊當中目前有多少數量該型號的飛機"},{"start":11466.428,"end":11489.047,"text":"好像我了解說好像沒有沒有啊主委你掌握資訊有問題喔我們的統計目前台灣現有的8家我請航空組的組長來沒關係啊我數字對不對你告訴我啦8家民用航空公司中長榮有7879型4架78710型11架我不知道我的數字對不對正確"},{"start":11491.109,"end":11514.578,"text":"然後華航這就出現一個問題我就要問我們的主委你知道華航在2022年美國參議員葛禮翰來訪台後曾經當面跟蔡英文總統提及希望台灣能夠採購波音787客機然後這個新聞你知道嗎你知道當時聯合報報導揭露之後你知道總統府怎麼回應嗎"},{"start":11521.701,"end":11536.272,"text":"總統府痛斥聯合報破壞國人外交工作的信心傷害臺美情誼其心可異外交部深感遺憾連總統府都出來譴責聯合報不實報導結果聯合報說買24架後來買幾架請問你知道後來買幾架波音787"},{"start":11548.154,"end":11572.047,"text":"不知道啊 運安會這麼重要的事情都不知道我跟你講啦後來8月宣布訂購16架波音7872025年開始交付然後單缸中運量的新世代客機主力2023年5月再加購8架16加8是多少架可惡的總統府啊"},{"start":11575.435,"end":11577.562,"text":"聯合辦24下完全講對了竟然可以譴責"},{"start":11583.186,"end":11612.504,"text":"那我現在回頭問當時媒體報導就是有點擔心七八七是不是我們應該掌握他的飛航狀況免得危害台灣人民的非安問題所以聯合報才報導有24架採購總統府可以說你運安會如果覺得七八七你要背書你可以說大家放心七八七進來我可以背書你要不要背書可不可以背書主委七八七安全你可以背書可不可以"},{"start":11613.599,"end":11640.624,"text":"我們要先去瞭解狀況好我告訴你你可以要瞭解狀況是一個說法我為安全背書是一個說法我不為安全背書也是一個說法但是這個總統府跟外交部竟然可以譴責聯合報一個正確的報導這是一個非安該有的態度現在現在全世界關心七八七阿要不要謝謝聯合報聯合報報導這麼正確24架欸完全如他所說欸"},{"start":11642.136,"end":11663.104,"text":"所以回頭我就要講今天我們當然運安會很關心我們的運輸安全但是說真的我知道你們有你們的無奈現在很多東西都是政治凌駕專業你光這件事情我希望運安會好好瞭解一下七八七的整個狀況好不好可不可以謝謝"},{"start":11671.124,"end":11688.472,"text":"好謝謝羅志強委員下一位請林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員不在陳雪生委員陳雪生委員陳雪生委員不在林思敏委員林思敏委員林思敏委員不在張祺凱委員請張祺凱委員"},{"start":11709.226,"end":11710.888,"text":"阿里山森林公路"},{"start":11724.53,"end":11743.802,"text":"經過15年的修復 欸 萬眾都期待喔7月1號就要全面通車了 明天 十月號就要開始迎新上路了齁可是裡面今天我想要請教主委的是 有很多安全的問題 你們到底有這樣還是沒有我們看一下 去年的這個4月"},{"start":11747.725,"end":11759.59,"text":"阿里山的森林鐵道阿有輕船落石砸到這個軌道還是靠遊客喔市警去揮手去市警還沒有發生危險今天運安會以前有掌握這個訊息嗎"},{"start":11761.448,"end":11788.425,"text":"我們有時候會接到民眾的通報確實都這個事情有時候會發生沒有錯那還好有遊客在那裡會抽對不對沒有的話就發生問題怎麼辦我們再看第二個今年的4月份剛剛才發生了有一個列車是什麼發現有這個樹倒塌還好有及時去煞車然後通報前面去清理主委你有看到一個很重要的重點嗎現在看起來這兩個案件都是要靠目測對不對"},{"start":11790.034,"end":11816.106,"text":"是不是那科技時代捏這樣安不安全尤其阿里山很多都是彎道嘛對不對他有些死角啊不能靠只有靠目測啊我要問兩件事情啊第一你發現這個問題之後有沒有去處理第二今天本席提出這個安全的這個問題我們要怎麼改善這個問題不能一直靠一直靠靠眼睛去測試啊是不是我們怎麼解決這個問題"},{"start":11818.14,"end":11840.016,"text":"你這兩條案件都是天然招的害啦天然招我們確實也有收到通報那剛剛委員提到說是不是有一些系統或是一些科技可以偵測當然是可以但是他是阿里山的設立鐵路是不是在他的主管機關是不是會投入相關的經費或預算去做對阿所以你要自己去集齊要先請他過去去集齊"},{"start":11842.097,"end":11859.091,"text":"阿里山不是只有這個嘉義之光阿全世界都矚目對不對這對台灣的觀光非常非常重要阿那老實講第一個絕對不能發生有安全問題阿點解今天本席這很清楚跟你講至少這兩個案子是非常明確的是不是那你到底要怎麼去解決這個安全的問題我們提醒住管機關說這個要注意確實"},{"start":11863.994,"end":11885.539,"text":"確實謝謝你能不能在差不多一個禮拜好不好是針對這兩個案子你要怎麼去處理好不好我給你看看下一個下一個其實四月13日花蓮大帝黨的時候隔天有發生一個很重要的事情那是即使有搶救下來主委你看一下那時候那個石頭大石頭掉下來對不對在軌道壓住嘛"},{"start":11887.145,"end":11908.099,"text":"隔天而已喔是落實的這個告警系統發揮的功能啊所以太魯閣在逃過一劫啊對不對我就在問你啊我們阿里山目前的鐵路是有預警系統啊可是那個範圍是太少了太小了對不對你今天能不能答應我趕快去幫忙多做一些啊這樣那個範圍擴大可以嗎"},{"start":11910.038,"end":11930.551,"text":"我們可以把台鐵的成功經驗就如同委員講的我們可以請他們延伸過去成功的我們就要沿用到阿里山鐵道這邊好不好這個非常非常重要這個你剛剛說你要去做一個禮拜內你完成之後你跟我講你做到什麼程度準備怎麼做好不好"},{"start":11931.371,"end":11949.383,"text":"一禮拜給我這個,可以嗎?可以喔,好。那好事,快點。是,是,謝謝。好,來,我們再看一下。這個我不曉得你有沒有掌握啦,我不曉得你調查了沒有,改進了沒有。古年的時尊,有媒體就直接爆料了。我後來去查,也有這個事情。2023年一爆料,他說一年前,2022年四月時尊。"},{"start":11953.203,"end":11972.949,"text":"阿里山這個鐵道阿因為那個操作的失誤造成了擊軌事件所以他轉側器扭曲變形就是我扣給你的地方大家看一下各位就是這個圓圈圈右邊這個圖右邊這個就是他轉側器整個就扭曲變形了左邊這個鐵道都已經凸起來了這很危險阿你們當初看到這個報導有沒有去掌握?有改善嗎?"},{"start":11985.074,"end":11987.337,"text":"為什麼不是營運列車嗎?他是鐵道地面出現這個問題"},{"start":12000.199,"end":12006.661,"text":"所以本期今天做了兩個非常具體的這個要求第一個就是市井這個系統目前真的是還是不夠的那你今天答應了喔所以你一個禮拜內把它提出來說你怎麼做把資料送到本期"},{"start":12029.049,"end":12032.501,"text":"向這個安全都要注意阿里山是"},{"start":12034.634,"end":12059.71,"text":"加益之光他明天開始有新的這個車列車已經要啟動了7月1號前面都要啟動這對整個台灣的觀光推向國際非常非常重要其實我們有共同在推動這個國際的這個觀光風華在線對台灣是好的那一方面拜託一下安全一定要做到好不好一個禮拜內相關的這個調查跟改善的這個計畫送到本席辦公室好不好謝謝謝謝主委在線主委預案會一週內回應張啟開委員謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12072.793,"end":12097.97,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員下一位請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在請鄭振田委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在"},{"start":12100.68,"end":12119.794,"text":"登記質詢委員均與發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員黃建豪黃仁委員所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員與質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未答覆部分請運安會盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":12123.404,"end":12128.671,"text":"現在審查國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案,請議事人員宣讀。"},{"start":12134.155,"end":12161.009,"text":"討論此項審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案。以下一至六國家運輸安全調查委員會含檢送決議一派員出國計劃預算凍結五十萬元書面報告案決議二一般行政預算凍結八百萬元書面報告案決議三運輸事故調查預算凍結十分之一書面報告案決議四"},{"start":12161.989,"end":12163.67,"text":"以上6案請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":12192.694,"end":12212.447,"text":"均同意動之提報用會。針對本日會議做以下決議。討論事項所列國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案均同意動之提報用會。本日議程處理完畢。散會。"},{"start":12243.979,"end":12244.682,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}