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如果有這樣講的話你要不要給他更正好不好這個我剛才已經講過了那個次長好啦 之前我做個簡單的這個結論第一個 中央財政收支發布法已經25年沒有修了這個是不分黨派的你民進黨沒有萬年執政的啦"},{"start":618.581,"end":638.832,"text":"民進黨如果變在野黨的時候你就會發現說這是這個修法讓地方可以自治中外錢下放可以照顧地方的這個所有的這個縣民縣市民眾他到時候會鼓掌的看國家要制度化要長遠啊因為民進黨現在執政你以前賴清德你自己當台南市長你當行政院長都是要修當了總統就換一個腦袋嗎特別嚴重的是這天為什麼講這麼激動不要再抹黑不要再扭曲這個才華法好不好這個是長久以來"},{"start":649.295,"end":676.064,"text":"要落實地方自治要關心地方的因為臺灣就是一個中央集錢又集錢的地方嘛全世界很少國家這樣子所以25年來多少人要求要修不是就政黨、學者專家我們辦兩次聽證會你也在多少學者專家說趕快修我跑那麼久的政治新聞寫了三本書我說這次的財政收支方法能夠修是歷史上難得的一個機會百年難遇因為三黨不過半"},{"start":677.159,"end":681.123,"text":"張啓楷委員是不是尊重其他委員的一個花園好不好?好 謝謝好 謝謝啓楷委員接著我們請楊瓊英委員花園"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1203,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時22分）請阮次長。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：前一陣子有公布今年的稅收到11月底超收5,100億元，現在有沒有最新的數據？今年會超收多少錢？"],["阮次長清華：實徵數超過預算數我們分兩塊，一塊是全國部分，一個是中央政府部分，剛才委員講的應該是全國那部分的預估數，到現在還不確定，因為還沒結束。"],["張委員啓楷：你們公布11月底是超收5,100億元，現在應該還在增加當中，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：這是預估數。"],["張委員啓楷：到了年底，特別是贈與稅那些全部再加進去。現在最重要是問你一個，有沒有比較明確新的數據？5,100億元還在往上走嗎？"],["阮次長清華：基本上我們預估全年全國數大概就是4,900億元到5,100億元之間；如果是中央數的話，大概是三千多億元，3,500億元到3,700億元之間。我要特別跟委員說明一點，這個只是總預算的一部分，雖然總預算可能歲收比較好，因為最近AI，我們經濟狀況不錯，所以我們稅收是增加的，但是我們財政部管財政不是只看一個總預算，我們還要看特別預算，所以我跟委員報告，總預算加特別預算目前為止還是赤字，所以我們為什麼會那麼關切這次財劃法修正。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，加了特別預算會赤字就是以前舉債舉太多，亂花錢太多了，這個要從杜絕弊案那邊做起。今天我一開始要問你最重要的，政府現在是有錢了，而且超收的金額是很多的，遠超過現在被抹黑、被扭曲的財劃法修正以後增加的3,700億元，你用你們現在最保守的5,100億元去算啊！聽我講，明年的歲入超收的錢至少多了1,400億元出來，這代表什麼？不是像卓院長講的國庫變空虛，國庫在明年可以用的錢更多啊！"],["阮次長清華：沒有！沒有！如果有的話，我們不會有什麼意見，我剛才就跟委員報告嘛！歲收只是總預算歲入的一部分，它加進去以後，我們的總預算其實還是有一個短差。"],["張委員啓楷：不要把這5,100億元又浪費掉，錢就會省下來。"],["阮次長清華：沒辦法直接這樣用。"],["張委員啓楷：更重要的，不是只有錢增加了、稅增加了，你以前浪費的、浮濫的，比如光電的弊案、超思的弊案，光是那1,000億元要拿去補臺電的拿回來，人民就有錢了，所以不要再抹黑財劃法，什麼下放錢給地方。","更重要的，這次修正的重點是什麼？今天很多資深的財政部官員在這邊，從民進黨執政、陳水扁時代當總統就有財政收支劃分法的版本啊！林全當行政院長，蔡英文剛上臺，他邀我去辦公室，我們談了很久，蔡英文本來也應該有財劃法的版本啊！你們的部長在這邊接受我質詢的時候也說問題都慢慢解決了，要有版本啊！他們拜會我們黨團，我跟她講，她說快有版本，結果到現在為止，行政院版、財政部的版本在哪裡？你們是嚴重失職，你們自己不上車、變成局外人是嚴重失職的，所以不要再抹黑財劃法。","第二個，我問你一個最簡單事情，為什麼到現在沒有提出來？最重要的人是賴清德總統，我給大家看一下，賴清德2012年在當臺南市長怎麼講？他說財劃法是一個不公不義的惡法，他說當總統的──當時他怎麼罵馬英九──當總統的如果沒有看到地方的問題，財政不足，財劃法和公債法怎麼可以不過呢？如果不處理，就是中央想集權又集錢，對它的統治比較方便。我們要相信哪一個賴清德？再來，我要相信哪一個財政部？之前跟我說要提版本的，我叫你回去趕快去看以前陳水扁提過的版本、看林全提過的版本，你們答應我要看、要提，到現在也沒有，你們是嚴重的失職，你現在還說三道四、還在抹黑財劃法。"],["阮次長清華：我們沒有抹黑，財劃法在財政部來講不是說不能修，而是說要充分討論，所以我們在過去……"],["張委員啓楷：25年來經過多少討論？我剛才已經跟你講了，次長，連陳水扁都提了版本、林全都提了版本，有沒有討論？光是新會期，立法委員上個會期討論多久、辦了公聽會，這個會期也辦了公聽會，沒討論嗎？財政部的版本在哪裡？","我接下去談一個很重要的事情，現在全民最關心的，臺灣是個寶島，可是有天災地動，我們的行政院長竟然說以後颱風地震來了，地方要自己去面對。我問你一個最重要的，你財政部到底有沒有足夠的財源給我們政府、給人民？地震來了，財政部的財源不足夠去救災嗎？我給大家看一下，請大家注意看，在921發生大地震的時候，後來政府編了1000億元的921震災災後重建基金特別預算，有錢嗎？那時候的李登輝政府為什麼有錢可以編？第二個，以今年當例子，今年我們很不幸發生了花蓮的大地震，政府機關、中央機關包括交通部、衛福部、內政部各個機關馬上找出了88.5億元。"],["阮次長清華：285億元。"],["張委員啓楷：全部加起來285億元嘛！第一項是中央機關緊急找到的88.5億元，還有中央特種基金84.65億元，前瞻和疫後的特別預算有1.01億元，包括特別的中央統籌分配稅款拿了50.1億元出來，中央的二備金、震災基金加起來就是你講的285億元，為什麼今年發生花蓮大地震有285億元在那裡？為什麼行政院長可以跟我們講以後地方要自己去面對？"],["阮次長清華：問題是現在修法以後就不一樣了，修法以後你隨時釋出3,753億元，中央對地方的支援能量不足。"],["主席：次長，你是不是把完整的資料給張啓楷委員？"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，次長講這個非常嚴重，上一張，你的意思是經過這次財政收支劃分法修正以後，中央機關的公務預算不要再編錢；第二個，特種基金不要再編錢、中央政府的第二預備金也不要編錢，不管地方的災變了嗎？"],["阮次長清華：對不起，我沒有講這樣的話。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才的意思是這些錢沒有了嗎？"],["阮次長清華：這部分是主計總處的職權，我沒辦法替他回答這個問題。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，今年有的，明年不能少，對不對？第二個，這是法定的預算。當行政院長講這個話，第一個不只是失言，變成被罵是冷血的院長，而且是違背法令的院長，所以我明確的要求、鄭重要求：行政院長卓榮泰為你的失言，人民的生命安全受到了災害，你在上面做政治操作，你把話收回去、吞回去，跟人民道歉。次長你剛也失言了，你剛剛的意思經過財劃法修正，這些預算明年不編嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我沒有這樣說。"],["主席：次長，是不是請你私下跟張委員說明？"],["張委員啓楷：次長，你看一下這些項目要不要編？"],["阮次長清華：我們財政部只負責歲入。"],["主席：我想啓楷委員已經時間上會壓縮到其他委員的時間，不好意思，是不是讓次長私下回應你？"],["張委員啓楷：馬上好，次長你明確回答我，這些錢你明年的總預算都已經送來了，都有編嘛！"],["阮次長清華：編預算不是我們財政部的權責，財政部只負責歲入，歲出那部分是主計總處要去考量的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我問你兩個問題，第一個，你有沒有足夠的稅收、財源？財政部管錢嘛！足夠給我們救災，你剛說有嘛！對不對？"],["阮次長清華：現在就沒錢了啊。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，我現在問你更嚴重的，你剛剛的講法變成說，可能因為財政收支劃分法把錢下放到地方因此沒錢，這些項目會變嗎？在今年我們立法院正在審的總預算書裡面，這些項目都在，不只今年的項目在，明年也在啊！為什麼會沒有救災的錢？怎麼會有卓榮泰講的──颱風地震來自己要面對？第一個，這是法令上，如果這樣做是違法的；第二個，這樣講把政治操作在人民的痛苦之上，這是冷血耶！這是違法。所以一方面要求他道歉，要行政院長道歉，話吞回去！次長，你回去看一下剛剛我們的對談，你是不是也認為沒有錢可以編了？你如果有這樣講的話，你要更正，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：這個我剛才講過了。"],["主席：謝謝，次長！"],["張委員啓楷：主席，我做個簡單的結論：第一個，中央財政收支劃分法已經25年沒有修了，這個是不分黨派的，你民進黨沒有萬年執政的啦，民進黨如果變在野黨的時候，你會發現這次修法讓地方可以自治，中央的錢下放可以照顧地方所有的縣市民眾，他到時候會鼓掌的，看國家制度要長遠，不要因為民進黨現在執政，以前賴清德你自己當臺南市長、你當行政院長都說要修，當了總統就換一個腦袋嗎？特別嚴重的是，這幾天為什麼講這麼激動？不要再抹黑、再扭曲這個財劃法，好不好？這是長久以來要落實地方自治、要關心地方的，臺灣就是一個中央集權又集錢的地方嘛！全世界很少國家這樣子，這25年來多少人要求要修，不是只有政黨，還有學者專家，我們辦兩次聽證會你也在，多少學者專家說趕快修，我跑了那麼久的政治新聞，寫了3本書，我說這次的財政收支劃分法能夠修是歷史上難得的一次機會，百年難遇，因為三黨不過半，修完之後才有制度法，所以修好的已經變成一個好的地方，請不要再抹黑、再扭曲財劃法，好不好？幫我們的地方多講一些聲音，幫民眾多講一些聲音。"],["主席：張啓楷委員，是不是尊重其他委員的發言，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝啓楷委員，接著請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}