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我很清楚特別預算就是排除整個預算那你"},{"start":195.183,"end":199.236,"text":"來我請教來我有一個片子讓你看來那個是不是把它播放"},{"start":202.093,"end":206.454,"text":"這個情況更加讓高雄市未來的財政更加的困難非常不公平的對高雄市是一種懲罰"},{"start":230.302,"end":237.531,"text":"今天我們最大的訴求這一次的財劃法一定要優先排進去所以我們認為最優先應該是財政收支報告今天我們委員長怎麼可能再讓這個議題讓馬來西亞再回分呢"},{"start":248.304,"end":264.393,"text":"所以我們認為這次臨時會財政法院是一個很重要的優先法案不是你馬英九拿三十幾個簡單的法案來耐以投訴來一目了視的在這上面你不收署而已我們要讓馬英九很清楚財政法院是民進黨黨派永遠第一優先法案這就是我們的立法院"},{"start":264.873,"end":293.346,"text":"當年我在編預算的時候常常是徹夜南北半夜醒過來是全身冷汗從我當主席以來第一件事就是把民進黨執政縣市長約請來黨中央一起大聲的呼籲要趕快通過財政收支化分化這不只是民進黨的問題現在更從藍營的縣市長也紛紛跳出來可知這是不分藍綠的而財政收支化分化攸關地方縣市政府的正常運作"},{"start":293.686,"end":296.63,"text":"好我相信齁從這些影片大家清清楚楚"},{"start":310.061,"end":326.082,"text":"律營這些過去當過首長的換了個位置就換了個腦袋那本席是認為說今天修訂財劃法是讓這個因為地方講實在話很多縣市首長"},{"start":326.943,"end":342.381,"text":"他們真的是嗷嗷待哺而且每一年都透過我們中央及這些民意代表來反映希望能夠爭取很多的這些建設需要中央可以協助補助今天我認為說"},{"start":344.122,"end":365.516,"text":"因為財政部用中央積極支援地方財政的這個立場來透過中央統籌分配稅款搭配一般性的補助款以及計畫型的補助來挹注地方財源難道現在的執政黨我們各位官員這個就是最好的政策嗎"},{"start":366.755,"end":369.496,"text":"跟委員報告我們財政部不會反對財化法來修正但是我們是希望要充分的討論我跟委員報告過去我們但是充分討論"},{"start":384.54,"end":410.917,"text":"要你們提版本你們根本連版本都不提嘛我先跟委員報告幾個數字我們對中央政府對地方政府的依註到114年是達到超過1兆151億那麼這一次沒有經過充分討論的情況之下又額外釋出3753億然後呢一般的博出款又不能夠往下降"},{"start":411.457,"end":431.411,"text":"所以在這種情況之下一定會衝擊到中央的施政而且會影響到對地方的協助的能力所以說行政院批評財務法修正後中央政府的國庫會變得空虛未來天災來臨時地方政府要自行的等於是"},{"start":432.972,"end":457.002,"text":"去勇敢面對那我請問次長卓院長對國庫空虛這麼有感受那為什麼沒有辦法體會到地方政府也需要這個虛權的恐急就是非常需要錢他們真的是嗷嗷待哺已經到了無以復加的地步才會因應其判財化法的修法"},{"start":457.862,"end":486.111,"text":"你有什麼看法跟委員報告卓院長他有發布聲明他說他的發言有被這個斷章取義了但是我們可以想我們現在對中央政府的資源已經達到超過一兆以上如果再額外釋出3753億的話一定會弱化對地方財政的資源一定會嘛不管是如果碰到一些建設也好或者是說災害也好"},{"start":486.431,"end":512.828,"text":"那這幾年一直超增,難道你這個都沒有考量進去嗎?連續四年喔!而且超增一兆八千多億喔!所以我剛才跟委員報告過稅收只是總預算的一部分,它的時增數超過預算數但是只是總預算,但是我們還有特別預算所以我們中央是要看整個財源目前還是赤字的"},{"start":513.208,"end":513.748,"text":"我是覺得我們我剛才一直在講"},{"start":530.214,"end":531.355,"text":"我是覺得這樣啊在討論過程當中執政黨委員在這邊也充分表達意見"},{"start":552.037,"end":573.734,"text":"但是好像一直都沒有被接受管事長難道中央要集權又集錢地方政府要透過這個搖尾起聯才能夠讓我們掌權掌權的關奈眼神現在這樣是我們執政黨應該奉行的聖經嗎"},{"start":575.751,"end":590.619,"text":"我跟委員報告我們這個叫財政收支劃分分我知道啊也就是說你在分的時候跟支就要同時要考慮也就是說權跟錢要同時要考慮那只有釋放三千多億所以財政部前中央並沒有集權的問題"},{"start":591.84,"end":611.673,"text":"沒有局前大家看太嚴密這些縣市首長為什麼剛剛那個影片難道你沒有看嗎對不對這個都是齁那些影片都是他們在包括前院長蘇貞昌包括歷任很多縣市首長他們的心聲尤其"},{"start":614.074,"end":639.42,"text":"賴總統他在當總統以前在台南市長這是他講的話我們是把他的話帶到今天讓大家來了解你不要換了一個位置就換了個腦袋而且真的很多我們地方的縣市他們真的苦哈哈的而且講實在話這個是不分藍綠因為財化法修訂以後每個縣市"},{"start":641.314,"end":668.416,"text":"就照財化法的規定該給要給那你行政院長又說以後的災害中央完全沒有責任然後又帶到什麼教育啦什麼國防啦講實在話我認為像這樣的官員真的實在是換了位子換了腦袋又來欺騙老百姓是很不應該那你今天早上又去開記者會我看要看他看記者會內容怎麼講"},{"start":669.096,"end":696.632,"text":"我跟委員報告就是我們的對中央對地方的採取的依註從民國103年那時候才五千多億但是現在成長到114年到超過一兆以上所以這一部分中央從來沒有集錢跟集權所以基本上我們充分來支援那你釋放給地方讓地方能夠自主哪裡不好啊所以我就覺得要錢跟權要同時好一點要你們提外你們也不提"},{"start":697.512,"end":697.532,"text":"韓國瑜"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":353,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時20分）質詢前先給我幾分鐘，我要問問主席。"],["主席：問我？"],["林委員德福：主席，我很尊重你，我們與會各列席官員還有本會的同仁，今天早上我們要開會，其實上個禮拜議程已經列定了、已經送了，今天莊部長沒有來，本席真的有一點意見，但是我還是尊重主席，因為主席讓他請假，為什麼我這麼想法？第一個，因為他10點鐘要在行政院開記者會，他跟陳淑姿主計長兩個人要開記者會，我認為開記者會絕對是針對上個禮拜通過的財劃法，講實在話，你要面對啊，而且……","好，可以開始了，我認為這個要面對，為什麼？因為他對於我們上個禮拜通過的財劃法，請阮次長上來，好不好？來。"],["主席：請阮次長跟林德福委員說明一下。"],["林委員德福：因為立法院上個禮拜通過財劃法修正案，媒體報導財政部深表遺憾，我請問阮次長，面對立法院多數席次立委要求財政部提出修法的版本，而且我們有做過主決議說這個新會期財政部一定要提出來，已經經過半年，但財政部對面對多數的民意，可以說置之不理啦。我認為通過以後，你才來說深表遺憾，你們會不會認為感到羞愧？會不會？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，財劃法這一部分因為涉及到財源的分配……"],["林委員德福：這個我都很清楚，阮次長，你會不會認為感到很羞愧嘛？"],["阮次長清華：不會啊，我覺得這個東西涉及到資源的分配，所以……"],["林委員德福：阮次長，我統計過，在今年度（113年度）到年底最少超徵4,900億，112年超徵多少？3,860億，111年超徵5,237億，110年超徵4,227億，總共4年加起來一兆八千多億，平均每年超徵多少？4,500億。"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，我們雖然……剛才委員提到的是總預算裡面稅收的實徵數超過預算數，但是如果我們把總預算跟特別預算合併來算的話，我們這幾年幾乎都是赤字……"],["林委員德福：你特別預算不能併在裡面，你不要跟我來這一套，我跟你講，阮次長，我很尊重你，但是我很清楚，特別預算就是排除整個預算。","來，我有一個片子讓你看，是不是把它播放？","（播放影片）"],["林委員德福：好，我相信從這些影片，大家清清楚楚，綠營這些過去當過首長的，換了位子就換了腦袋，本席是認為今天修訂財劃法，而且講實在話，地方很多縣市他們真的是嗷嗷待哺，每一年都透過我們中央及這些民意代表來反映，希望能夠爭取很多的建設，需要中央給予協助、補助。今天我認為財政部用中央積極支援地方財政的立場，透過中央統籌分配稅款搭配一般性的補助款以及計畫型的補助來挹注地方財源，阮次長，難道對現在的執政黨官員而言，這個就是最好的政策嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，我們財政部不會反對……"],["林委員德福：不會反對……"],["阮次長清華：不會反對財劃法來修正……"],["林委員德福：但是你們部長說非常地遺憾啊！"],["阮次長清華：但是我們希望要充分地討論，跟委員報告，過去我們……"],["林委員德福：但是充分討論，要你們提版本，你們根本連版本都不提嘛！"],["阮次長清華：我先跟委員報告幾個數字，中央政府對地方政府的挹注在114年超過1兆151億，這一次沒有經過充分討論的情況之下，又額外釋出3,753億，一般的補助款又不能往下降，在這種情況之下一定會衝擊到中央的施政，而且會影響對地方協助的能力。"],["林委員德福：行政院批評財劃法修正後，中央政府的國庫會變得空虛，未來天災來臨時，地方政府要自行勇敢面對。請問次長，卓院長對國庫空虛這麼有感受，為什麼沒有辦法體會到地方政府也需錢孔急、非常需要錢，真的是嗷嗷待哺到了無以復加的地步，才會殷殷期盼財劃法的修法。你有什麼看法？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，卓院長有發布聲明說發言被斷章取義，但是我們可以試想，現在對中央政府的資源已經超過1兆以上，如果再額外釋出3,753億的話，一定會弱化對地方財政的資源，一定會嘛！不管是碰到建設也好、災害也好……"],["林委員德福：這幾年一直超徵，難道都沒有考量進去嗎？連續4年喔！而且超徵一兆八千多億！"],["阮次長清華：剛才跟委員報告過，稅收只是總預算的一部分，實徵數超過預算數只是總預算，但是我們還有特別預算，中央整個財源目前還是赤字的，如果再額外釋出三千七百多億的話，中央的財政一定更加困難。"],["林委員德福：所以你認為錢放在自己的身上才有安全感，這是中央政府應該有的心態嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我剛才一直在講財劃法不是不能修，而是要大家充分溝通討論……"],["林委員德福：但是已經給你們一次又一次，而且一樣在立法院這個地方做過主決議，你們遲遲不理，現在又去行政院開記者會，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：我覺得在討論的過程當中，執政黨委員也充分表達意見，但是好像一直沒有被接受。"],["林委員德福：阮次長，難道中央要集權又集錢，地方政府要透過搖尾乞憐才能夠得到掌權、掌錢者的關愛眼神？這是現在執政黨應該奉行的聖經嗎？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，這個叫財政收支劃分法……"],["林委員德福：我知道啊！"],["阮次長清華：也就是分跟支要同時來考慮、權跟錢要同時來考慮，目前中央並沒有集權的問題。"],["林委員德福：有沒有集權大家看在眼裡，這些縣市首長為什麼……剛剛的影片難道你沒有看嗎？包括前院長蘇貞昌、歷任很多縣市首長的心聲，尤其賴總統當總統以前在當臺南市長講的話，我們是把他的話帶到今天，讓大家瞭解，不要換了位子就換了腦袋。而且真的很多地方縣市苦哈哈，這是不分藍綠的，因為財劃法修訂以後，每個縣市就照財劃法的規定，該給的要給，行政院長說以後的災害中央完全沒有責任，然後又帶到教育、國防……講實在話，我認為像這樣的官員換了位子就換了腦袋、欺騙老百姓，是很不應該的！今天早上又去開記者會，我要看他記者會內容怎麼講。"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，中央對地方財源的挹注在民國103年才五千多億，現在104年成長到1兆以上，所以中央從來沒有集錢跟集權……"],["林委員德福：沒有嗎？"],["阮次長清華：所以基本上我們充分來支援地方的需求。"],["林委員德福：你釋放給地方，讓地方能夠自主，哪裡不好？"],["阮次長清華：所以我覺得要錢跟權同時考慮。"],["林委員德福：要你們提案，你們也不提，甚至於……我看他今天記者會內容怎麼講，我認為這個已經修過了，你們要提各種方法去抵制，沒有關係，我們再看好了。謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝德福。","接者請吳秉叡委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-12","speakers":["賴惠員","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭正鈐","張啓楷","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","王鴻薇","陳玉珍"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-23"],"gazette_id":"1141101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請財政部莊部長翠雲、金融監督管理委員會彭主任委員金隆就「兆豐金控及臺灣證券交易所投\n資之台北金融大樓股份有限公司2024年營運成效、2025年度經營計畫與展望、暨跨年晚會煙火表\n演規劃」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1141101_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}