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有這個對羅總統的懷疑人不是現在比較有的韓國老黨啊那麼在我理工開始咧 羅總統來動用你做秘書長咧 我想這有很多來無啦 羅總統也積極在建立美國直接的官德"},{"start":183.817,"end":193.67,"text":"但我個人看到說他的出訪的安排及你及他的親密度不太夠。這點你可以跟本席說明一下,在美國這部分,老總統要建立新的團隊,你有參與在來嗎?"},{"start":201.891,"end":223.898,"text":"非常謝謝委員剛剛的質詢那有關於委員所提出來的這個依賴論這個是中國方面所丟出來的就我們在跟美方在這種交往的過程當中美方對賴總統是有充分的信任我們跟美方的這個溝通完全沒有障礙另外委員剛剛也有問到過境"},{"start":227.099,"end":237.686,"text":"落盡的安排是非常的好這不能同時這樣子比但是我可以跟你說對兩個的信賴度都很高我很清楚,對兩個的信賴度都很高你有沒有感覺這個國安團隊在5月2日上午的時候有需要調整嗎?"},{"start":256.298,"end":269.048,"text":"多久不明?國安的團隊啦,聲援啦。國安的聲援就是說,如果說有隨時要進黨的位,我相信總統...所以會配合老總統就對了?會配合老總統,OK。最近就是那個馬永勝,那個諮詢委員。"},{"start":275.793,"end":295.721,"text":"他是因為那個力量非常的充分啊所以行政院這邊就希望他能夠到行政院那邊去做所以這樣子的那個協調用於來救這個行政議長哦不是這樣子講不是這樣子講就是說人需要到哪裡去做最好的這個採檢啊我來講這真正好機啊媽英升下來這好機啊那好你請坐"},{"start":307.302,"end":315.342,"text":"黃培宇長剛才在說到這個要用更大的民主"},{"start":317.916,"end":328.058,"text":"你有沒有了解老總統什麼叫做更大的民主?感謝委員齁,我相信剛才委員給這個提案、這個議帳的博文一條特別給你感謝。蔣委員呢,人家都說我今天不敢叫,就用蓋線的,這案沒在冒齁,因為這是議事黨齁,因為你在社會大家都對你阿嬤博文很強調,尤其你的口才真好啦齁。"},{"start":342.722,"end":347.548,"text":"我剛才我第一次解釋就是說我跟那個吳秘書長都是總統的幕僚所以基本上總統交代什麼事情我們會去照、會去做、合調所以基本上合作不宜這個那沒問題我不會跟他發議啊另外"},{"start":357.619,"end":361.161,"text":"剛才說到比較大的民主在總統內因為過去可能每天每天都不一樣因為我們用比較大的民主的情緒在合法、合憲的當中不擺除任何的可能我們之前行政院有要學他嗎?之前日本的黨團有要寫憲嗎?你對他還沒了解齁"},{"start":377.455,"end":390.932,"text":"我這裡跟你講齁,你在離空19年,大總統出來挑戰蔡英文總統那個初選啦你表現到有情有義啦,他不會講我真心想就說做人啦齁,小廳,沒金、金錢啦,沒運勢"},{"start":393.5,"end":416.926,"text":"在冬季時蔡英文總統在跌倒民進黨來一跌的擁護的情形下你可以一路背叛辣成績走過那個最艱難你現在你沒有退縮了我們南部的孩子有這種個性是合理啦但是辣總統也對你非常氣重嘛今天你讓你危機高凍我是認為說你要"},{"start":424.554,"end":445.379,"text":"提案於12月25日上午10時30分凍結項目一、處理114年度中央政府總預算提案於12月25日上午10時30分凍結項目一、處理114年度中央政府總預算提案於12月25日上午10時30分凍結項目一、處理114年度中央政府總預算提案於12月25日上午10時30分凍結項目一、處理114年度中央政府總預算提案於12月25日上午10時30分凍結項目一、處理114年度中央政府總預算提案於12月25日上午10時30分凍結項目一、處理114年度中央政府總預算提案於12月25日上午10時30分凍結項目一"},{"start":454.837,"end":464.801,"text":"啊你今天你針對你法民安秘書長現在是針對羅清德總統在民進黨總統我個人啊在倫理上我認為這種做法是不吉啦這可以說的要或不要過也不用做到這麼粗魯我們才不會說所以我在說這個最大的民主啦以羅總統的個性我在這裡你可以回去請教的你要說"},{"start":483.172,"end":496.599,"text":"在這裡跟他說,你最大的民主,他有提出,不知道敢不敢是這樣。他最大的民主就請求他在台南市長的時候,為了要對抗台南市議會,234天市長不要進來議會,讓他完蒙。所以未來是不是會做生意,行政議長沒有要進來比順,會這樣嗎?"},{"start":508.849,"end":531.482,"text":"這就是他冬季時他是改定那就是他民主要來對抗五金啦是 我想把委員報告齁不至於這樣也不會啦好所以就民主說大概就在方式好來啊如果這樣就對了齁但是發光的部分你們說合理沒合理我幫你選一個譬如日本韓國也一樣15個他不是過半不是過半"},{"start":537.5,"end":558.985,"text":"二、處理114年度中央政府總預算凍結項目2、處理114年度中央政府總預算凍結項目3、處理114年度中央政府總預算凍結項目4、處理114年度中央政府總預算凍結項目5、處理114年度中央政府總預算凍結項目6、處理114年度中央政府總預算凍結項目7、處理114年度中央政府總預算凍結項目8、處理114年度中央政府總預算凍結項目9、處理114年度中央政府總預算凍結項目10、處理114年度中央政府總預算凍結項目11、處理114年度中央政府總預"},{"start":567.138,"end":589.944,"text":"這勞政宜也好,其他六個也好那麼未來不管在兩個月內、個半月什麼時候你要提出我請教你勞政宜你可以再提名嗎?呃,跟委員報告,這不是我可以做主因為我因為我要跟你講這個性格就是說總計時還要透過省縣小府我有沒有人見推薦或自薦你也可以推薦啦是不是這樣?"},{"start":596.414,"end":608.703,"text":"我沒有管你推薦,我不是法改的人沒有管你推薦,國改都可以推薦啊優秀的人,國改都可以推薦啊他也有自薦的啦我是認為說在做拼圖、在做騎一騎,怎麼修補?不然因為你們黨的執政六個多月啦不好一個國家黨開始就這樣亂啦尤其是你們,我國民黨在你黨反對是天經地義啊"},{"start":625.663,"end":652.463,"text":"但是你靠你民進黨自己的人在把自己的總統提出的時候這是不會通嘛所以我建議你再多提名勞政議但是你民進黨不可以反對那麼其他理性探討提名出來的運算在立法院都可以大家公開討論那麼透過這班的不同意也可以各動各主反省"},{"start":653.889,"end":672.597,"text":"要怎麼讓整個的司法院、大法官會議可以順利?要怎麼讓議席形態不用這麼強烈在這裡對抗?我想...譬如說...這是你的辣手對不對?我最後一個問題比較謹慎的問你,因為這段時間我對你有這麼多的批評就是說...針對大金人這個人數因為..."},{"start":684.09,"end":700.438,"text":"大家告訴我,我是直接的認為是你推薦,所以我批評你就是說你對老總統這樣回收就這種的傷害是不合理啦因為他過去有這樣的情形,既然推薦了推薦了,後果就後果了,失戒了失戒了"},{"start":701.701,"end":709.246,"text":"對於這種人事,因為我個人對辣青帝的了解,我坦白說,我會覺得他讓你這麼多的管理,讓你來協助他來整理國務,我認為是這個傭人的推薦。這點,我感覺若是這個事情,我針對這個流行性的事情,我有對你做一些批評。"},{"start":728.418,"end":745.011,"text":"當然不用介意本來大家我們就是接受公平嘛 是是是我認為說在以後你的看你這麼大情形我最近有聽到說對鄉親他的一股鼠目啦吼你的概念"},{"start":746.687,"end":752.311,"text":"有多少成果?我不知道這個消息是怎樣,因為這個大家要講得清楚,比較不用誤會啦。好,感謝委員,會知道我相信對臨河的撇撇、公平,這都是一個我們要檢討歡勝,有的是不是屬性啦。比如說這個魯正中臨時,過去因為大家在找人,各自有很多的推薦,我因為過去的實際裡面,"},{"start":773.086,"end":782.033,"text":"在這個地區幫冰凍很多農產品的幫忙,在這點我對它的能力很慶幸。所以我覺得這個未來如果農政部門可以來到,但因為農政部門沒有,所以也沒有人來應徵替客人去待經營。這個不是存錢的,當時就說那是外大會處理不容置善,所以這個能力絕對沒問題,但"},{"start":797.884,"end":807.049,"text":"我們比較不細理就是說不知道他的家族有什麼問題他不說我們這個人不可能說我跟這個人吃火鍋我了解他的家族怎麼樣我們才有可能去問因為他的家族我同期是有跟你們來報件他說那個事件對婚姻、嫁衣"},{"start":815.734,"end":836.052,"text":"一代那些農民很傷心嗎?坦白講,我們不知道啦。所以說這點要向委員報告。第二,我們都是真心情的人啦。你說,現在的行政有行政的制度、體系,我們有可能要怎麼存進去?我們只不過是在,有時候跟行政一定有時候開會。大家的婦嬰的這個對話很順暢,但沒有什麼去指揮或是伸進去的。第一,體制也沒有合適。"},{"start":842.798,"end":857.41,"text":"憲政體制自己也要顧,我們又在公佈門出來知道現在叫做憲政體制及分寸因為老總統對過去被當的執政本身也不滿意他是希望來救這個國家希望可以讓民進黨比較正常一點這是我們坦白講,他的想法不能說他不對所以要辦一些筆案在辦這些筆案的過程中"},{"start":871.707,"end":878.844,"text":"我們也期待說不要再造成新的冠雄高潔的集團出來這點是我個人在這裡探議我們大家互相勉勵好不好好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1000,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時21分）主席，我請潘孟安秘書長和吳釗燮秘書長。"],["主席：有請潘秘書長、吳秘書長。"],["謝委員龍介：兩位秘書長，辛苦了。潘秘書長，我聽鄰居說你念新化高中，可是也有人跟我說你念臺南二中，是怎麼回事？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我念過好幾所學校。"],["謝委員龍介：念過好幾所學校哦？你跟我一樣。所以臺南二中你也念過就對了？"],["潘秘書長孟安：沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有哦？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我知道委員是南二中的，和李俊毅委員等等，很多人都念南二中。"],["謝委員龍介：喔！今天是這樣啦！因為你來這裡很客氣，你跟吳秘書長都很客氣，人家說「凶拳不打笑面人」，既然你們都已經來了。","我對賴總統的預算用度和謹慎度很有信心，所以主席，我的提案會撤案，就是有關預算的部分，因為我的辦公室主任看了你們的預算，發現有很多不大合理的地方，我是建議，每一塊錢都是人民辛苦的血汗錢，但是必須花的還是要花，這點我會支持你們。","有關國安團隊，我先請教吳秘書長，過去賴總統在對美方面，因為美國對我國非常重要，我看你們剛剛在那邊說臺灣和中華民國，想跟潘秘書長建議一下，在這裡吵那個沒意義啦！現在你就是中華民國的總統府秘書長，因為你的「台灣國」還沒有建立，台灣國和中華民國就像牛和馬的叫聲不同一樣，在這邊爭辯並沒有意義，應該要做實務工作。","吳秘書長從外交部長來接國安團隊，我們也知道，美國對於我國，一直有對賴總統的懷疑論，這種傳聞不是現在才有，而是已經講了好幾年。賴總統從520開始重用你擔任秘書長，其中應該有很多內幕，而賴總統也在積極建立和美國之間的直接管道，但是我個人看到他的出訪安排以及你和他的親密度，覺得都不大夠，這點你可以跟本席說明一下，在美國這部分，賴總統要建立的新團隊你是否有參與在內？"],["吳秘書長釗燮：非常謝謝委員剛剛的質詢，有關委員所提出來的「疑賴論」，這是中國方面所丟出來的。就我們在跟美方交往的過程當中，美方對賴總統有充分的信任，我們跟美方的溝通完全沒有障礙。另外，委員也有問到過境，過境的安排非常好。"],["謝委員龍介：那我請教你，美國對賴總統的信賴度和對蔡總統的信賴度哪個比較好？"],["吳秘書長釗燮：這不能同時這樣比……"],["謝委員龍介：哪有什麼不行的？"],["吳秘書長釗燮：但是我可以跟你說，對兩個的信賴度都很高。"],["謝委員龍介：我想你很清楚……"],["吳秘書長釗燮：我很清楚，對兩個的信賴度都很高，這沒問題。"],["謝委員龍介：你有感覺到國安團隊在明年520就職週年時需要調整嗎？"],["吳秘書長釗燮：哪一方面？"],["謝委員龍介：國安團隊的成員啦！"],["吳秘書長釗燮：國安團隊的成員如果需要隨時調整的話，身為總統的幕僚……"],["謝委員龍介：所以你會配合賴總統就對了？"],["吳秘書長釗燮：我們都會配合。最近就是馬永成諮詢委員……"],["謝委員龍介：不錯啦！"],["吳秘書長釗燮：他是因為……"],["謝委員龍介：這是好棋啊！"],["吳秘書長釗燮：他歷練非常充分，所以行政院就希望他能夠到行政院那邊去……"],["謝委員龍介：用意是要去救行政院的卓榮泰卓院長。"],["吳秘書長釗燮：不是這樣講，就是說……"],["謝委員龍介：不錯，好棋啦！"],["吳秘書長釗燮：人需要到哪裡去做……"],["謝委員龍介：你看潘秘書長在笑了喔！我跟你講，這真的是一步好棋；馬永成下來是好棋。好，你請回座。","潘秘書長，剛才說到要用「更大的民主」，你瞭解賴總統說的「更大的民主」是什麼嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：感謝委員剛剛針對預算提案予以撤案。這是議事堂，我今天不敢像私下一樣叫你「龍介仙」，那樣不禮貌，而且社會對你某部分都非常肯定，尤其你的口才很好。剛才我的第二點解釋就是，我和吳秘書長都是總統的幕僚，基本上總統交代什麼事情我們就會去執行、去協調，所以合作無虞……"],["謝委員龍介：那沒問題，我不會懷疑你們。"],["潘秘書長孟安：另外，剛剛講到「更大的民主」，總統因為過去……可能大家的角度不一樣，因為我們用「更大的民主」的程序就是在合法、合憲當中，不排除任何可能，我們尊重行政院是否要覆議、尊重立法院黨團是否要釋憲……"],["謝委員龍介：沒關係，表示你對他還不瞭解！我跟你講，在2019年賴總統出來挑戰蔡英文總統的那次初選，你表現得有情有義，坦白講，我非常欣賞，也就是做人相挺，不怕強權、不畏勢，當時在蔡英文總統得到民進黨一致擁護的情形下，你可以一路陪伴賴清德走過那段最艱難的道路，而且沒有退縮，我們南部孩子有這種個性是合理的，但是賴總統也對你非常器重，今天讓你位居高堂，我是認為你要稍微替他顧一下，像昨天的表決等於是在刮賴清德的鬍子耶！黨團這種動作是不應該的，再怎麼樣也應該事先在黨內講一下，不要做得這麼難看！今天是你秘書長帶著這7個人一一來跟我們拜會耶，這已經不是個人有什麼問題了啦，因為這7個人就是你們包裹出來的嘛！今天針對你潘孟安秘書長或者是賴清德總統，對於民進黨黨團而言，我個人認為這種做法在倫理上是不宜的。這是可以說的，不讓他們通過也不必做得這麼粗魯，我們坦白說是這樣。","回過頭來說最大的民主，以賴總統的個性，你可以回去請教他，你就說：謝龍介有說什麼是最大的民主，會不會是這樣？我說，他最大的民主就像他在臺南市長任內，為了對抗臺南市議會，234天不進議會接受議員的質詢，所以未來是不是會造成行政院長不來立法院備詢？會這樣嗎？當初他就是把這種做法界定為要以民主來對抗黑金。"],["潘秘書長孟安：不至於這樣也不會，民主有很多方式。"],["謝委員龍介：如果是這樣，你們在說大法官的部分合不合理，我跟你說明一下，日本、韓國也一樣，15個不是過半，日本也要9個，所以這是常態，合乎國際立法例，因為釋憲要特別謹慎，這應該是大家可以接受的。不過過程中，你們會覺得這個修法，大家沒有事先打一下招呼，比較不舒服，但是這可以談。","再來就是你們的提名，因為這次失誤，劉靜怡也好，其他6個也好，未來不管在兩個月內或一個半月，你們什麼時候要提出？我請教你，你可以再提名劉靜怡嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：這不是我可以作主的，因為有一個……"],["謝委員龍介：因為我要跟你說這個先決，就是同時……"],["潘秘書長孟安：還要透過審薦小組，包括有沒有人推薦或自薦。"],["謝委員龍介：我知道。當然你也可以推薦，是這樣嗎？"],["潘秘書長孟安：我沒權利推薦，我不是法界的人。"],["謝委員龍介：不會，怎麼會沒權利？各界都可以推薦，各界都可以推薦優秀的人。"],["潘秘書長孟安：也有自薦的。"],["謝委員龍介：我認為在哪裡跌倒，就在哪裡站起來，該怎麼修補？因為你們才剛執政六個多月，不要一個國家剛開始就這樣亂。尤其國民黨投反對票是天經地義，但是民進黨自己人在幫自己的總統刮鬍子，這不通！所以我建議你們再度提名劉靜怡，但你們民進黨不要反對他；至於其他理性探討提名出來的人選，在立法院大家都可以公開討論。透過這次的不同意也能讓各黨各自反省，要怎麼讓整個司法院大法官會議順利，要怎麼讓意識形態不用這麼強烈在這裡對抗。潘秘書長，這是你拿手的，對不對？","我最後一個問題，比較謹慎的問你，因為這段時間我對你有一點批評，就是針對台金聯的人事案。我直接就認為是你推薦，所以我批評你，讓賴總統受到這種傷害是不合理的，因為他過去有這些情形，既然推薦也推薦了，否決也否決了，辭職也辭職了。對於這種人事，因為以我個人對賴清德的了解，我坦白說，我覺得他給你這麼大的權力，襄助他來處理國務，我認為在用人推薦這一點，潘秘書長，針對呂先生這個事件，我對你有一些批評，當然你也不用介意，本來大家就是接受公評。"],["潘秘書長孟安：是。"],["謝委員龍介：在他給你這麼大權力的情形之下，我最近有聽到，對行政院的一些事務，你的介入有比較多一點，我不知道這個消息是怎樣？因為大家要講清楚，才能避免誤會。"],["潘秘書長孟安：感謝委員指導。我想對任何的批判、公評，都是我們要檢討、反省的，但有的不是事實。比方呂政璋的人事案，因為過去大家在找人，各自有很多推薦。因為他過去幫忙屏東的農產品很多，基於這一點，我對他的能力很肯定，所以覺得未來他可以在農政部門協助，但是農政部門沒有職缺，後來整體考量讓他去台金聯。這不是像前董事長說的，那是多大的……那是在處理不良資產，所以這個人的能力絕對沒問題，但我們比較不小心的是，不知道他的家族有什麼問題。坦白說，比方我們不可能去了解謝委員的家族怎樣，我們怎麼可能去問？這是一項。"],["謝委員龍介：關於他的家族，我當時有跟你們內部建議，那個事件讓雲林、嘉義一帶的農民很傷心。"],["潘秘書長孟安：坦白說，我們不知道，所以這一點要跟委員報告。第二、我們都是真性情的人，現在行政院有行政院的制度、體系，我怎麼可能把手伸進去？我只不過是有時候跟行政院長一起開會，府院的對話很順暢，但沒有什麼去指揮或是把手伸進去的事。第一、不符合體制，自己要顧憲政體制，我還是公部門出身，知道什麼叫做憲政體制跟分寸。"],["謝委員龍介：因為賴總統本身對過去八年的執政不滿意，他希望來救這個國家，希望可以讓民進黨正常一點，坦白說，這是他的想法，我們也不能說他不對，所以才會辦一些弊案。在辦這些弊案的過程中，我們也期待不要再造成新的官商勾結集團出來，這點是我個人在這裡和你互相勉勵，好不好？"],["潘秘書長孟安：好，多謝。"],["主席：感謝謝委員，感謝潘秘書長。","接下來有請莊委員瑞雄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":228,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-36-22","speakers":["鍾佳濱","翁曉玲","羅智強","林思銘","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","洪孟楷","賴瑞隆","徐富癸"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-25"],"gazette_id":"1141303","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141303_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於總統府主管（不含中央研究院）收支部分；二、處理113\n年度中央政府總預算關於總統府預算凍結項目1案","agenda_id":"1141303_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}