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t":"可否請財政部莊部長？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:03.205333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T11:57:04.308000+08:00","text":"請莊部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:04.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:57:04.748000+08:00","text":"莊部長你好。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:05.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:57:05.489000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:06.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:57:14.293000+08:00","text":"財劃法通過以後，皆大歡喜，大家都感覺無比的興奮跟開心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:15.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:57:18.375000+08:00","text":"你這幾天這樣聽起來，有沒有不開心的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:20.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:57:34.839000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，財劃法這個部分的修正，必須要相當的審慎，首先他涉及到地方財政的需求，要顧慮中央施政跟財政的韌性，以及財政規劃能力都要顧慮。是。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:34.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:57:38.701000+08:00","text":"另外，在水平分配的部分，也要能夠達到調劑財政盈虛……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:38.701000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T11:57:39.701000+08:00","text":"所以大家開不開心？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:39.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:57:44.486000+08:00","text":"跟均衡區域發展，這個部分都要達到這樣一個目標。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:44.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:57:45.626000+08:00","text":"我覺得大家都很開心啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:57:46.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:58:01.716000+08:00","text":"你看，我從新北出生，我在立法院這一、二十年來，我一直爭取的，就是希望為地方爭取更多的財源，謀取更多的福利，造福地方、造福鄉梓。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:58:02.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:58:09.120000+08:00","text":"所以我們新北現在每年可以多三百七十幾億，哇！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:58:09.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:58:11.261000+08:00","text":"10年就是三千七百多億，讚！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:58:14.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:58:24.335000+08:00","text":"新北重新要站起來，成為未來國際級的大都市，我們四百多萬的民眾都很開心啊！","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:58:25.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:58:31.740000+08:00","text":"還有，身為多數的立委也很開心，你知道為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:58:31.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:58:32.501000+08:00","text":"因為不用再打架了啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:58:34.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:58:48.450000+08:00","text":"為了財劃法你們沒提出，我們打得亂七八糟，打得東倒西歪、腰痠背痛，只有部長你坐在那邊也開開心心的，你都沒有受傷，也沒有腰痠背痛，對不對？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:58:48.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:58:49.591000+08:00","text":"所以大家都很開心啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:58:50.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:58:55.833000+08:00","text":"那22個縣市，我這樣問起來，每個人都很開心啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:58:56.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:58:59.574000+08:00","text":"因為他分配的金額都比以前多很多啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:00.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:59:01.475000+08:00","text":"部長，有誰不開心？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:01.475000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T11:59:02.475000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:02.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:59:02.815000+08:00","text":"聽說只有一個人不大開心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:03.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:59:19.824000+08:00","text":"我們不管是在公聽會也好，還有邀請一些相關機關來討論，以及許多學者都有提到財權跟事權要併同考量，在財權下放的時候，事權也要同時下放。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:20.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:59:32.130000+08:00","text":"因為財劃法對中央很重要的就是，事權要一併考量，所以如果只是考量錢，而沒有考量事權的話，那整個是一個傾斜的狀態，並不是合理的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:32.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T11:59:33.130000+08:00","text":"所以這一次的調整……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:32.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:59:33.191000+08:00","text":"部長，現在這樣算起來，歲出一年大概總金額是多少？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:33.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:59:33.791000+08:00","text":"114年預算的話，歲出的編列是3兆1,325億。對啊！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:34.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:59:35.092000+08:00","text":"現在3,000都是10%而已啊，十幾%而已啊！","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:52.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T11:59:54.909000+08:00","text":"中央有一些是法律義務性的支出，是不能減少的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T11:59:55.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:00:03.837000+08:00","text":"所以事實上大家在看，與其給中央亂花錢，倒不如拿回來給地方基層來花。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:00:04.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:00:16.227000+08:00","text":"因為基層更多人眼睛在看，而且第一線大家的需求，有時候中央的官員在中央吹冷氣，不曉得地方的需求在哪裡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:00:19.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:00:22.519000+08:00","text":"剛剛講這裡有百分之十幾，其實對你們來說也不痛不癢啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:00:23.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:00:30.348000+08:00","text":"我們每次在這邊審預算的時候，有時候一刪也是刪個10%、20%，也是不痛不癢啊！","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:00:30.348000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:00:33.062000+08:00","text":"中央的預算編列，都是有施政計畫才編列預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:00:33.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:00:49.528000+08:00","text":"希望部長可以站在地方的立場來思考，不要說從中央集權又集錢，做的事情大家又沒感覺。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:00:49.528000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:00:50.528000+08:00","text":"沒有集權也沒有集錢，不會這樣子。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:00:49.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:00:55.550000+08:00","text":"部長，這5年來，平均每一年稅收大概都超徵多少？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:00:56.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:00:59.612000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，109年是短徵的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:01.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:09.125000+08:00","text":"你不要講短徵，我說超徵的，你說109年短徵，那我請問你……","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:09.125000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:10.125000+08:00","text":"109年因為碰到Covid，事實上我們沒有收到預算數。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:09.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:12.528000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，請問110年超徵多少？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:14.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:16.591000+08:00","text":"110年的部分我看一下……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:17.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:19.534000+08:00","text":"慢慢看，不要急。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:20.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:26.189000+08:00","text":"中央110年超過的預算數是3,252。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:28.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:28.670000+08:00","text":"注意聽喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:29.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:31.010000+08:00","text":"兩千多億是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:33.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:36.112000+08:00","text":"3,252億，但是我們預算實際……喔！","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:38.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:39.493000+08:00","text":"三千多億，然後111年稅收超徵多少？","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:40.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:42.583000+08:00","text":"中央部分是4,000億。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:42.583000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:43.583000+08:00","text":"4,000億嘍！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:43.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:43.603000+08:00","text":"注意聽喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:43.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:45.104000+08:00","text":"超過3,700億嘍！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:45.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:48.004000+08:00","text":"再來，112年超徵多少？2,900億。喔！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:48.004000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:52.466000+08:00","text":"2,900億接近3,000億嘍！","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:52.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:53.126000+08:00","text":"113年超徵多少？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:53.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:01:59.308000+08:00","text":"目前來說還沒到結束，跟委員報告，我們的實徵數超越預算數，基本上是拿去減少舉債，增加還債。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:01:59.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:00.468000+08:00","text":"沒關係，現在已經12月了，今天就是聖誕節，這幾天我就不算了……","quality":0.542},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:00.468000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:10.912000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我覺得這個部分還是要說清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:10.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:14.857000+08:00","text":"今年12月24日之前，稅收累積超徵多少？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:16.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:27.551000+08:00","text":"我們目前預算初估到年底的話，中央的部分大概會超過預算數3,500億，但是我們要做……哇！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:27.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:28.071000+08:00","text":"那剛好啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:28.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:29.071000+08:00","text":"用這條來抵這條剛剛好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:28.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:41.621000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，國家的財政是不能這樣算的，我們要減少舉債，而且要還債，要債務還本的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:42.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:43.962000+08:00","text":"我跟各位報告，其實大家都是皆大歡喜……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:43.962000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:44.962000+08:00","text":"委員，國家的財政不是這樣算的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:44.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:53.549000+08:00","text":"我這幾天想一想，其實只有一個人可能不開心，你可不可以回去問一下姓賴的總統？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:53.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:56.717000+08:00","text":"不會，跟委員報告，國家的財政要關注到財政的韌性，跟財政資源的妥善配置。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:56.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:57.718000+08:00","text":"好，如果他不會不開心，那我們就是社會和諧、政黨和諧。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:57.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:02:58.158000+08:00","text":"其實政治就是一種妥協啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:02:58.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:15.231000+08:00","text":"不能整碗端走都要吃，說不過去啦！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:15.231000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:16.231000+08:00","text":"委員，不是不能討論……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:15.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:17.112000+08:00","text":"而且22個縣市，講難聽一點，大家都平均，都用得到嘛！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:17.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:17.192000+08:00","text":"以前賴總統講的啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:17.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:18.212000+08:00","text":"這個優先法案，就是要通過財劃法，每個人都這樣啊！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:18.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:18.832000+08:00","text":"老柯也講了啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:18.832000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:19.832000+08:00","text":"您看一下那時候中央給地方的財源是多少，是很少的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:18.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:19.312000+08:00","text":"不能說換了一個執政，就換了一個腦袋。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:19.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:43.137000+08:00","text":"而且最重要的是，不管誰執政，你做好的話，下一次就換你做嘛！","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:44.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:49.848000+08:00","text":"22個縣市，沒有規定哪一個縣市是由哪個黨來做，你做得不好就換人做啦！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:51.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:51.953000+08:00","text":"為什麼那麼沒有自信？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:52.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:03:55.557000+08:00","text":"你好好做，錢還是地方在用啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:03:56.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:02.363000+08:00","text":"中央用、地方用，還不是都一樣，都是為人民在用，這裡寫得很清楚啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:02.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:07.829000+08:00","text":"「國家至上、民眾第一」，永遠都是站在民眾的立場多多來做。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:08.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:14.375000+08:00","text":"另外我要問，22個縣市裡面，有誰不開心的？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:15.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:16.236000+08:00","text":"名字講給我聽一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:16.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:22.098000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我覺得財政資源的配置，必須要有一個公平跟合理性在裡面……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:22.098000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:23.098000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:23.098000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:24.098000+08:00","text":"部長，我從開始就在問你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:22.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:25.359000+08:00","text":"如果您想在財政優勢裡獲得更多財政資源的話，這不合理。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:25.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:26.359000+08:00","text":"有沒有人跟你反應他不開心？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:25.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:27.740000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我覺得國家的財政，必須要好好審慎的考量。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:28.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:28.720000+08:00","text":"好，那我問你，你會不會因為少了3,700億，中華民國馬上就「倒店」？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:46.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:04:59.998000+08:00","text":"委員，所有財源的分配，都必須要考量施政，應該要有事權，才有支出，那才會有收入，但是如果沒有考慮事權，而只是中央大幅支出財源的話……","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:59.998000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:00.998000+08:00","text":"所以你心裡的希望……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:04:59.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:02.660000+08:00","text":"這個對財政來說，必須對財政紀律要考量的。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:02.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:15.309000+08:00","text":"所以你心裡的希望，就是你為天下，大家要聽你的話，立法院一毛都不能刪你們的預算嘍？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:17.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:18.592000+08:00","text":"當然委員在審查預算的時候……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:18.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:28.942000+08:00","text":"照你這樣講，我剛剛算起來也不過才百分之十幾，你講得那麼難過，你那麼難過，為什麼當初前瞻在這邊通過8,800億的時候，你都沒有哼一句？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:29.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:32.026000+08:00","text":"為什麼軍購4,000億，這邊三分鐘就通過？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:32.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:32.446000+08:00","text":"有那麼困難嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:32.446000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:38.242000+08:00","text":"前瞻當時是為了推動國家的基礎建設……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:38.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:39.684000+08:00","text":"有那麼難嗎？部長！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:39.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:42.428000+08:00","text":"全世界都要聽你的是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:42.428000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:43.489000+08:00","text":"沒有，不可能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:43.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:45.331000+08:00","text":"不聽你的國家就會倒是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:45.331000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:46.331000+08:00","text":"沒有這個意思。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:45.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:45.932000+08:00","text":"不會嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:47.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:48.555000+08:00","text":"不是這樣子嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:50.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:05:55.704000+08:00","text":"連商量的餘地都沒有，部長你不能當到最後覺得你是武則天啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:05:55.704000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:06:00.405000+08:00","text":"不可能，我怎麼可能是武則天？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:06:00.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:06:01.066000+08:00","text":"不可能，我剛剛就講啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:06:01.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:06:09.994000+08:00","text":"才百分之三十幾而已，假設就算百分之十幾，你把它轉移過來，中華民國還在啊！","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:06:10.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:06:18.861000+08:00","text":"為什麼要這樣一直威脅人民，說什麼部會不行了，什麼地方的經費少了，影響權益會很大。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:06:19.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:06:29.295000+08:00","text":"另外，請問一下部長，22個縣市裡面，負債的縣跟市有哪幾個？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:06:29.295000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:06:30.295000+08:00","text":"負債縣市的詳細資料，是否會後提供給委員？","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:06:29.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:06:32.797000+08:00","text":"好，財劃法通過統籌分配稅款下來了以後，地方可不可以優先來還債？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:06:49.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:00.170000+08:00","text":"我想地方政府的財政資源，因為統籌分配稅款是屬於地方的稅課收入，他們編預算經過議會通議，由他們來支用。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:01.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:03.594000+08:00","text":"所以就是落實地方自治的精神對吧？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:03.594000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:05.696000+08:00","text":"目前統籌分配稅款……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:05.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:11.901000+08:00","text":"我最後請教一個，因為時間關係，去年計畫型的補助是多少錢？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:13.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:17.270000+08:00","text":"計畫型的補助，目前是在主計總處那邊控管，不在我們財政部。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:17.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:18.691000+08:00","text":"對，但你一問就知道啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:18.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:20.113000+08:00","text":"你們兩個應該都有聯絡啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:20.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:21.194000+08:00","text":"大概是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:21.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:22.375000+08:00","text":"計畫型的補助。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:24.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:32.733000+08:00","text":"我看一下，114年是2,900億，然後113年計畫是2,600億。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:34.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:35.153000+08:00","text":"那就對了啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:36.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:40.695000+08:00","text":"你計畫性變少，變成地方自主性變強，還不是一樣？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:40.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:41.975000+08:00","text":"要看一下地方怎麼反應。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:42.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:43.155000+08:00","text":"有一句話啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:44.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:47.297000+08:00","text":"「麻糬手內捽」，存乎一心啦！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:47.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:48.657000+08:00","text":"要不要做而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:49.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:52.208000+08:00","text":"部長，我們在那邊等你，等了快一年多，都「等無人」。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:52.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:07:54.950000+08:00","text":"怎麼會沒人，我都有來啊！","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:07:55.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:08:02.435000+08:00","text":"財劃法本來要請你趕快提出版本，尊重你的想法跟看法……","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:08:02.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2024-12-25T12:08:03.435000+08:00","text":"我們也一直在努力當中啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:08:02.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:08:03.816000+08:00","text":"結果我等了一年多！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:08:05.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:08:05.978000+08:00","text":"我們都在努力當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:08:06.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:08:07.639000+08:00","text":"有一首歌叫「等無人」啦！","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2024-12-25T12:08:08.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:08:09.540000+08:00","text":"都等不到人。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2024-12-25T12:08:10.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:08:10.741000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-25T12:08:10.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:08:10.861000+08:00","text":"謝謝明才。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2024-12-25T12:08:10.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2024-12-25T12:08:11.282000+08:00","text":"接著請張啓楷委員發言。","quality":0.8}]},"gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時57分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員大家好。可否請財政部莊部長？"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["羅委員明才：莊部長你好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：財劃法通過以後，皆大歡喜，大家都感覺無比的興奮跟開心。你這幾天這樣聽起來，有沒有不開心的？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財劃法這個部分的修正，必須要相當的審慎，首先他涉及到地方財政的需求，要顧慮中央施政跟財政的韌性，以及財政規劃能力都要顧慮。"],["羅委員明才：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：另外，在水平分配的部分，也要能夠達到調劑財政盈虛……"],["羅委員明才：所以大家開不開心？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟均衡區域發展，這個部分都要達到這樣一個目標。"],["羅委員明才：我覺得大家都很開心啊！你看，我從新北出生，我在立法院這一、二十年來，我一直爭取的，就是希望為地方爭取更多的財源，謀取更多的福利，造福地方、造福鄉梓。所以我們新北現在每年可以多三百七十幾億，哇！10年就是三千七百多億，讚！新北重新要站起來，成為未來國際級的大都市，我們四百多萬的民眾都很開心啊！","還有，身為多數的立委也很開心，你知道為什麼？因為不用再打架了啊！為了財劃法你們沒提出，我們打得亂七八糟，打得東倒西歪、腰痠背痛，只有部長你坐在那邊也開開心心的，你都沒有受傷，也沒有腰痠背痛，對不對？所以大家都很開心啊！那22個縣市，我這樣問起來，每個人都很開心啊！因為他分配的金額都比以前多很多啊！部長，有誰不開心？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：聽說只有一個人不大開心。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們不管是在公聽會也好，還有邀請一些相關機關來討論，以及許多學者都有提到財權跟事權要併同考量，在財權下放的時候，事權也要同時下放。因為財劃法對中央很重要的就是，事權要一併考量，所以如果只是考量錢，而沒有考量事權的話，那整個是一個傾斜的狀態，並不是合理的。所以這一次的調整……"],["羅委員明才：部長，現在這樣算起來，歲出一年大概總金額是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：114年預算的話，歲出的編列是3兆1,325億。"],["羅委員明才：對啊！現在3,000都是10%而已啊，十幾%而已啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：中央有一些是法律義務性的支出，是不能減少的。"],["羅委員明才：所以事實上大家在看，與其給中央亂花錢，倒不如拿回來給地方基層來花。因為基層更多人眼睛在看，而且第一線大家的需求，有時候中央的官員在中央吹冷氣，不曉得地方的需求在哪裡。剛剛講這裡有百分之十幾，其實對你們來說也不痛不癢啊！我們每次在這邊審預算的時候，有時候一刪也是刪個10%、20%，也是不痛不癢啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：中央的預算編列，都是有施政計畫才編列預算。"],["羅委員明才：希望部長可以站在地方的立場來思考，不要說從中央集權又集錢，做的事情大家又沒感覺。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有集權也沒有集錢，不會這樣子。"],["羅委員明才：部長，這5年來，平均每一年稅收大概都超徵多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，109年是短徵的。"],["羅委員明才：你不要講短徵，我說超徵的，你說109年短徵，那我請問你……"],["莊部長翠雲：109年因為碰到Covid，事實上我們沒有收到預算數。"],["羅委員明才：好，沒關係，請問110年超徵多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：110年的部分我看一下……"],["羅委員明才：慢慢看，不要急。"],["莊部長翠雲：中央110年超過的預算數是3,252。"],["羅委員明才：注意聽喔！兩千多億是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：3,252億，但是我們預算實際……"],["羅委員明才：喔！三千多億，然後111年稅收超徵多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：中央部分是4,000億。"],["羅委員明才：4,000億嘍！注意聽喔！超過3,700億嘍！再來，112年超徵多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：2,900億。"],["羅委員明才：喔！2,900億接近3,000億嘍！113年超徵多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說還沒到結束，跟委員報告，我們的實徵數超越預算數，基本上是拿去減少舉債，增加還債。"],["羅委員明才：沒關係，現在已經12月了，今天就是聖誕節，這幾天我就不算了……"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我覺得這個部分還是要說清楚。"],["羅委員明才：今年12月24日之前，稅收累積超徵多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們目前預算初估到年底的話，中央的部分大概會超過預算數3,500億，但是我們要做……"],["羅委員明才：哇！那剛好啊！用這條來抵這條剛剛好。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，國家的財政是不能這樣算的，我們要減少舉債，而且要還債，要債務還本的。"],["羅委員明才：我跟各位報告，其實大家都是皆大歡喜……"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，國家的財政不是這樣算的……"],["羅委員明才：我這幾天想一想，其實只有一個人可能不開心，你可不可以回去問一下姓賴的總統？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會，跟委員報告，國家的財政要關注到財政的韌性，跟財政資源的妥善配置。"],["羅委員明才：好，如果他不會不開心，那我們就是社會和諧、政黨和諧。其實政治就是一種妥協啦！不能整碗端走都要吃，說不過去啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，不是不能討論……"],["羅委員明才：而且22個縣市，講難聽一點，大家都平均，都用得到嘛！以前賴總統講的啊！這個優先法案，就是要通過財劃法，每個人都這樣啊！老柯也講了啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：您看一下那時候中央給地方的財源是多少，是很少的。"],["羅委員明才：不能說換了一個執政，就換了一個腦袋。而且最重要的是，不管誰執政，你做好的話，下一次就換你做嘛！22個縣市，沒有規定哪一個縣市是由哪個黨來做，你做得不好就換人做啦！為什麼那麼沒有自信？你好好做，錢還是地方在用啊！中央用、地方用，還不是都一樣，都是為人民在用，這裡寫得很清楚啊！「國家至上、民眾第一」，永遠都是站在民眾的立場多多來做。另外我要問，22個縣市裡面，有誰不開心的？名字講給我聽一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我覺得財政資源的配置，必須要有一個公平跟合理性在裡面……"],["羅委員明才：不是啦！部長，我從開始就在問你……"],["莊部長翠雲：如果您想在財政優勢裡獲得更多財政資源的話，這不合理。"],["羅委員明才：有沒有人跟你反應他不開心？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我覺得國家的財政，必須要好好審慎的考量。"],["羅委員明才：好，那我問你，你會不會因為少了3,700億，中華民國馬上就「倒店」？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，所有財源的分配，都必須要考量施政，應該要有事權，才有支出，那才會有收入，但是如果沒有考慮事權，而只是中央大幅支出財源的話……"],["羅委員明才：所以你心裡的希望……"],["莊部長翠雲：這個對財政來說，必須對財政紀律要考量的。"],["羅委員明才：所以你心裡的希望，就是你為天下，大家要聽你的話，立法院一毛都不能刪你們的預算嘍？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然委員在審查預算的時候……"],["羅委員明才：照你這樣講，我剛剛算起來也不過才百分之十幾，你講得那麼難過，你那麼難過，為什麼當初前瞻在這邊通過8,800億的時候，你都沒有哼一句？為什麼軍購4,000億，這邊三分鐘就通過？有那麼困難嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：前瞻當時是為了推動國家的基礎建設……"],["羅委員明才：有那麼難嗎？部長！全世界都要聽你的是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，不可能。"],["羅委員明才：不聽你的國家就會倒是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有這個意思。"],["羅委員明才：不會嘛！不是這樣子嘛！連商量的餘地都沒有，部長你不能當到最後覺得你是武則天啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：不可能，我怎麼可能是武則天？"],["羅委員明才：不可能，我剛剛就講啊！才百分之三十幾而已，假設就算百分之十幾，你把它轉移過來，中華民國還在啊！為什麼要這樣一直威脅人民，說什麼部會不行了，什麼地方的經費少了，影響權益會很大。另外，請問一下部長，22個縣市裡面，負債的縣跟市有哪幾個？"],["莊部長翠雲：負債縣市的詳細資料，是否會後提供給委員？"],["羅委員明才：好，財劃法通過統籌分配稅款下來了以後，地方可不可以優先來還債？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想地方政府的財政資源，因為統籌分配稅款是屬於地方的稅課收入，他們編預算經過議會通議，由他們來支用。"],["羅委員明才：所以就是落實地方自治的精神對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前統籌分配稅款……"],["羅委員明才：我最後請教一個，因為時間關係，去年計畫型的補助是多少錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：計畫型的補助，目前是在主計總處那邊控管，不在我們財政部。"],["羅委員明才：對，但你一問就知道啊！你們兩個應該都有聯絡啊！大概是多少？計畫型的補助。"],["莊部長翠雲：我看一下，114年是2,900億，然後113年計畫是2,600億。"],["羅委員明才：那就對了啊！你計畫性變少，變成地方自主性變強，還不是一樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：要看一下地方怎麼反應。"],["羅委員明才：有一句話啦！「麻糬手內捽」，存乎一心啦！要不要做而已。部長，我們在那邊等你，等了快一年多，都「等無人」。"],["莊部長翠雲：怎麼會沒人，我都有來啊！"],["羅委員明才：財劃法本來要請你趕快提出版本，尊重你的想法跟看法……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們也一直在努力當中啊！"],["羅委員明才：結果我等了一年多！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們都在努力當中。"],["羅委員明才：有一首歌叫「等無人」啦！都等不到人。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝明才。接著請張啓楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-13","speakers":["賴惠員","賴士葆","陳菁徽","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","黃健豪","黃珊珊","羅明才","張啓楷","陳玉珍","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-25"],"gazette_id":"1141203","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141203_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「菸酒稅法」 10 案：( 一) 行政院函請審議、本院委員李柏毅等 16 人、委員賴惠員等16\n人、委員郭國文等 18 人、委員吳琪銘等 16 人分別擬具「菸酒稅法部分條文修正草案」等 5 案、\n(二)本院委員徐巧芯等29人擬具「菸酒稅法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等\n27人、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人、委員張智倫等18人分別擬具「菸酒稅法第十九\n條及第二十一條條文修正草案」等3案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「菸酒稅法第十九條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二、審查「使用牌照稅法」8案：(一) 行政院函請審議、本院委\n員賴士葆等24人、委員陳菁徽等17人、委員張智倫等18人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等17\n人、委員郭國文等16人分別擬具「使用牌照稅法第二十九條、第三十條及第三十一條條文修正草\n案」等7案、(二) 本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「使用牌照稅法第三十條及第三十一條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查行政院函請審議、本院委員賴士葆等21人、委員林楚茵等18人、委員徐巧芯等\n27人、委員賴惠員等17人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「土地稅法第五十四條條文修正草案」等\n6案；四、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，關於財政部主管中國\n輸出入銀行、臺灣金融控股股份有限公司（含臺灣銀行股份有限公司、臺銀人壽保險股份有限公\n司、臺銀綜合證券股份有限公司）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1141203_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}