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財政部部長委員好補定 我在這裡問你幾次你來拜訪我們總統 我也跟你說 你說你一直在努力嘛 對不對你的版本怎麼到時候還沒吃"},{"start":26.004,"end":49.973,"text":"跟委員上次有拜會委員那時候有提到我們在《財化法》上努力第一個我們跟地方政府收集相關意見他們所提出的指標有80幾個我們要釐清它每一個指標背後的含義部長你能力應該很強啊你怎麼一直在聽消息這怎麼是消息聽消息又有徵詢完之後你都沒有消化車子現在改革列車已經開了"},{"start":51.514,"end":66.39,"text":"而且很重要的我問你一個很關鍵的其實最後要不要過的前幾天啊卓榮泰卓院長是有找上韓國瑜韓院長的他說再給他4個月所以你們財政部長有初步的已經有初步的草案嗎"},{"start":67.435,"end":84.311,"text":"跟委員報告第一個在指標裡面已經有共識剩下三個指標沒有共識那接下來各個指標要怎麼樣配置這個權重以及每一個指標裡面要做一個更精細的一個配置比如跟委員報告比如說以人口來說"},{"start":86.672,"end":114.238,"text":"現在通過的法案人口很單純就是45%但是人口的結構裡面有超過65歲還有14歲以下的孩童他需要的施政的成本跟服務的成本是比較高應該要做各種不同的一個層數的一個調整部長所以人民你很期待不只是有一個有能力有擔當的財政部長他要感得上時代啊我先講第一個很重要觀念"},{"start":115.507,"end":143.245,"text":"這個法已經25年沒修了在這25年來從陳水扁當總統的時候有行政院的院版第二個蔡英文剛上來的時候我提醒你好幾次了林全也有林全的版本2012年民進黨的黨主席蘇貞昌就以前的前院長帶著所有民進黨的縣市長包括那時候台南市長賴清德賴清德怎麼說財化法再不修他是一個不公不義的惡法"},{"start":144.261,"end":168.563,"text":"他當行政院長也說要提版本阿我要講兩個很重要的觀念25年來所有的法令能夠向財法法引起這麼多的關注這麼多討論他是歷史上的第一個所以不要再講什麼財法法沒有討論這是第一個點很重要第二個是連民進黨都認為要修而且從陳水扁、蔡英文一直到賴清德"},{"start":169.758,"end":191.409,"text":"那怎麼可以大家已經把這個改革方案拿出來了民眾黨也提了 國民黨也提了行政院到後來版本沒有出來說要再等4個月這樣對得起人民嗎?好 部長來我問你 我們現在最重要是解決問題啦不只對不起人民這天我看了老腳是非常生氣的你前天還到行政院開會跟組紀長然後連續這兩三天"},{"start":196.772,"end":214.001,"text":"一個一個部會冒出來所有的施政沒辦法做了現在是怎麼樣?是在擒賊還是在詐騙?中央政府這麼好走少了3753例就沒辦法做事情了嗎?我先問你今年113年現在馬上要12月底了"},{"start":225.872,"end":250.489,"text":"113年度的稅數是多少錢?今年中央政府總計算的稅數多少錢?是指稅路是不是?中央政府的稅路看一下喔我唸給你聽啦2兆7252億好那我們現在正要審的已經暴增到多少?3兆1534億我唸"},{"start":254.144,"end":283.132,"text":"你把它減一下把我們明年準備要用的準備收的這個稅入減掉今年的增加多少?4,282億所以少了3,753億怎麼會沒辦法運作呢?最壞最壞的狀況下最基本的狀況下回到今年的預算規模今年運作得很好啊113年運作得很好啊這是我給大家第一個觀念"},{"start":284.429,"end":311.159,"text":"少了三千七百五十三億最多最多回到今年度113年度的規模今年整個中央政府各個部位運作的非常好所以少了這三千多億不是問題這是第一個點 第二點我再幫你找辦法現在立法院正在審議算啊如果真的從行政院到各個部位一直挨挨說我選不選不選 沒辦法做事情"},{"start":312.967,"end":330.564,"text":"這方法很簡單啊!立法院在那邊審預算啊!就砍3753例以上嘛!減劣嘛!這減劣才多少?不到10% 欸 將近10%而已啊!我跑那麼久的政治新聞以前的中央政府總預算 刪掉10%以上的 有的!"},{"start":331.96,"end":353.18,"text":"所以如果這些繼續叫、繼續欺騙民眾、繼續情樂很簡單嘛我們就是在總預算的審查,現在立法院正在審我們就刪掉3753例以上,那你問題就解決了啊委員,預算送出來之前都有施政計畫我們是根據施政計畫來編預算,那如果說第一個"},{"start":353.98,"end":381.598,"text":"稅出預算裡面3兆多裡面有法律義務支出那個是不能少那是法律義務那剩下的就不是就不是只有3兆1000多了那影響就會很大人事費那個不會訂到嘛但是會影響到中央的施政所以各部會現在都在檢視部長立法委員立法委員代表人民監督監督行政院監督審查所有的預算預算檢視最重要的喔我剛已經跟你提過了"},{"start":382.378,"end":399.66,"text":"第1、以前3過百分之10是有的。第2、我們的中央政府總計算單會不夠多嗎?復編的不夠多嗎?必要那麼多?砍個10%砍個3753億很正常啊!人民我相信很多人鼓掌。第2、解決你們的問題啊!"},{"start":401.331,"end":426.029,"text":"所以這是第二個解決方案第一個我跟你講回到以前的規模第二個解決方案就是該刪減的預算要刪減幫人民看緊每一分民脂民膏第三個方法啊我記得你前天記者會你跟主席長講得最有建設性了你說必要說什麼舉債嘛以前都說了保定疫情都說了超收做什麼事情有些還債嘛對不對"},{"start":427.95,"end":432.936,"text":"有先去還債、減少舉債、減少舉債嘛對不對但是債有債務的上限你有沒有發現你去減少舉債、去還債對不對那你現在你說要解決現在這個問題你現在今年超收了5100億喔"},{"start":444.216,"end":465.302,"text":"你要拿去減債或繁債...中央沒有這麼多,委員就是你用3000多億去算了,好啦,寶弟你講事實上每一分錢進來5100多億那個是全國最受包含地方的中央委員找得過本來就進了國庫嘛來,所以說你中央可以支應了至少3000多億好,來來,這個邏輯很簡單,你以其..."},{"start":470.063,"end":483.241,"text":"你拿去減債或者還債對不對那你這邊舉債那不是兩個又 這個水是通的嗎所以很容易的解決啊你把你抄說的錢如果你接了3000多億不夠"},{"start":484.369,"end":502.852,"text":"你就追加預算、整支筆錢繼續用就好啦是不是這樣子所以這問題還是可以解決另外抱歉我講最後一個這是我提的抱歉抱歉這是我提的很重要的觀念是讓行政那個外你是外部委員你已經用掉我們很多的時間我們還有那個陳一貞委員是本委員、外部委員"},{"start":504.013,"end":506.014,"text":"這次的財劃法這個修正沒有讓地方變成好東西大家看一下這個圖"},{"start":529.502,"end":546.695,"text":"我們的各個縣市的自籌財源都非常的偏低大家看一下真正有一個可以稱為小康的差不多只有台北市他自籌財源的比例多少57.91欸以下的從新北市到台中這些"},{"start":550.253,"end":578.755,"text":"有5個是40幾%的有3個30幾%的接下來所有的縣市12個為自己的錢開始前台灣有12個縣市22個縣市裡面有12個他自有的財源自己擁有的財源都在25%以下所以這次下放的這個錢22個縣市去分只是有些從赤坪變成小坪小坪變成頂多到小康"},{"start":579.935,"end":599.59,"text":"中央才是唯一的富豪嘛大富豪啊所以不要叫中央已經沒錢中央從中央政府總預算到國營事業到基金6兆多22縣市全部加起來剛好差不多超過1兆而已6比1耶現在下放個3000都一直在那邊叫地方好好做不是對中央做全部都很好嗎"},{"start":600.987,"end":628.604,"text":"所以我請做個結論第一個不要再叫錢不夠沒辦法做事你要嘛就擠債要嘛立法委員幫你把這個預算減淚更重要的拜託一下就是我們的地方知識讓地方可以好好發展好不好我們照顧所有的基層的民眾好不好不要再叫沒錢錢的問題是可以解決更重要讓地方有自主才有長久的計畫照顧到每個縣市的民眾非常感謝張七開委員的花言接著請陳一貞委員花言"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":860,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時8分）請部長。"],["主席：請財政部部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我在這裡問你幾次了，你拜訪我們黨團的時候，我也有跟你說，你說你一直在努力嘛！對不對？那你的版本怎麼到現在「無影無跡」？"],["莊部長翠雲：上次拜會委員的時候有提到，我們在財劃法上的努力。第一、我們跟地方政府蒐集相關意見，他們提出的指標有八十幾個，我們要釐清每一個指標背後的含義，然後再歸類討論……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你能力應該很強啊！你怎麼一直在聽消息？"],["莊部長翠雲：這怎麼是消息？"],["張委員啓楷：聽消息或徵詢完之後你都沒有消化，現在改革列車已經開了，而且很重要的，我問你一個很關鍵的，其實在要不要過的前幾天，卓榮泰卓院長是有找上韓國瑜韓院長的，他說再給他4個月，所以你們財政部已經有初步的草案嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，第一個指標已經有共識，剩下三個指標沒有共識，接下來各個指標要怎麼配置權重，以及每一個指標裡面要做一個更精細的配置。比如以人口來說，現在通過的法案，人口很單純就是45%，但是人口的結構裡有超過65歲，還有14歲以下的孩童，他們需要的施政成本跟服務的成本比較高，應該要做各種不同成數的調整。土地面積也是一樣……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，所以人民很期待，不只是一個有能力、有擔當的財政部長，他要趕得上時代啊！我先講一個很重要的觀念，這個法已經25年沒修了，在這25年來，從陳水扁當總統的時候，有行政院的院版對不對？再來蔡英文總統剛上來的時候，我提醒你好幾次了，林全也有林全的版本。2012年民進黨的黨主席蘇貞昌，就是以前的前院長，帶著所有民進黨的縣市長，包括當時的臺南市長賴清德。賴清德怎麼說？財劃法再不修，它是一個不公不義的惡法，他當行政院長的時候也要提版本啊！","我要講兩個很重要的觀念，25年來所有的法令，能夠像財劃法引起這麼多的關注、這麼多的討論，它是歷史上的第一個。所以不要再講什麼財劃法沒有討論，這是第一點，很重要。第二、是連民進黨都認為要修，而且從陳水扁、蔡英文一直到賴清德，怎麼可以大家已經把改革方案拿出來了，民眾黨提了、國民黨也提了，行政院到後來版本沒有出來，說要再等4個月，這樣對得起人民嗎？","部長，我問你，我們現在最重要的是解決問題啦！不只對不起人民，這幾天老實講我看得非常生氣，你前天還跟主計長到行政院開會，然後連續這兩三天，一個一個部會冒出來，說我的施政沒辦法做了。現在是怎樣？是在情勒還是在詐騙？中央政府這麼有錢，少了3,753億就沒辦法做事情了嗎？我先問你，今年……"],["莊部長翠雲：委員……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先問你，現在113年馬上要12月底了，113年度的歲入是多少錢？今年中央政府總預算的歲入是多少錢？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是指歲入是不是？"],["張委員啓楷：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：中央政府的歲入我看一下。"],["張委員啓楷：我唸給你聽啦！2兆7,252億，我們現在正要審的已經暴增到多少？3兆1,534億。部長，你把他減一下，把我們明年準備要收的歲入減掉今年的，增加多少？4,282億。所以少了3,753億，怎麼會沒辦法運作呢？最壞、最壞的狀況下，最淒苦的狀況下，回到今年的預算規模，今年運作得很好啊！113年運作得很好啊！這是我給大家的第一個觀念，少了3,753億，最多、最多回到今年度113年度的規模。今年整個中央政府，各個部會運作得非常好，所以少了這三千多億不是問題，這是第一點。","第二點，我再幫你找辦法，現在立法院正在審預算啊！如果真的從行政院到各個部會都一直哀，說欠這筆錢沒辦法做事。這方法很簡單啊！立法院正在審預算，就砍3,753億以上嘛！減列嘛！減列才多少？不到10%，將近10%而已啊！我跑那麼久的政治新聞，以前的中央政府總預算，刪掉10%以上的，有的！所以如果再繼續叫、繼續欺騙民眾、繼續情勒，很簡單嘛！我們就是在總預算的審查，現在立法院正在審，我們就刪掉……"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，不是這樣的……"],["張委員啓楷：刪掉3,753億以上，你的問題就解決了啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，預算送出來之前都有施政計畫，我們是根據施政計畫來編預算，如果歲出預算三兆多裡面有法律義務支出，那個是不能少的，那是法律義務。那剩下的就不是三兆一千多，那影響就會很大……"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以法定的預算，人事費那個不會動到嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：但是會影響到中央的施政，所以各部會現在都在檢視，這會有影響……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，立法委員代表人民監督行政院，監督審查所有的預算，預算錢是最重要的喔！我剛已經跟你提過了。第一、以前刪過10%，這是有的。第二、我們的中央政府總預算浪費的不夠多嗎？浮編的不夠多嗎？弊案那麼多，砍個10%，砍個3,753億，很正常啊！我相信很多人民會鼓掌。再來，解決你們的問題啊，所以這是第二個解決方案。","第一個是回到以前的規模，第二個解決方案就是該刪減的預算要刪減，幫人民看緊每一分民脂民膏。第三個方法，我記得你前天記者會跟主計長講的最有建設性了，你說必要的時候做什麼？舉債嘛！部長，以前都說超收做什麼事情？有些去還債嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：還債，也減少舉債。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！減少舉債嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：但是債有債務的上限。"],["張委員啓楷：你有沒有發現，你去減少舉債、去還債對不對？那你現在說要解決這個問題，今年超收了5,100億喔！你要拿去減債或者還債……"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，中央沒有這麼多。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！就算你用三千多億去算，事實上每一分錢進來，五千一百多億……"],["莊部長翠雲：這個是全國稅收包含地方，中央沒這麼多。"],["張委員啓楷：對，所以這筆錢本來就進了國庫嘛！你說中央可以支應的至少三千多億……"],["主席：謝謝啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：來，這個邏輯很簡單。"],["主席：你已經超過很多時間了。"],["張委員啓楷：你以前拿去減債或者還債對不對？那你這邊舉債，那這個水不是通的嗎？所以很容易可以解決啊！你把你超收的錢，如果你覺得三千多億不夠，你就追加預算，讓這筆錢進去用就好啦！是不是這樣子？所以這個問題還是可以解決。"],["主席：部長，是不是再跟張啓楷委員說明？"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我講最後一個，這是我提的，抱歉、抱歉，這是我提的很重要的觀念……"],["主席：張啓楷委員，你是外部委員，你已經用掉我們很多的時間。"],["張委員啓楷：好，主席抱歉。"],["主席：我們還有陳玉珍委員是本委員會的委員。"],["張委員啓楷：有啦！玉珍說他時間願意給我，我提的是非常具體的建議，對全民……"],["主席：可是後面還有很多委員。"],["張委員啓楷：好，大概一分。"],["主席：拜託好不好，我每一次都給你很多的時間。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：你應該要尊重我啊！你超過的時間太多了。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！大概一分鐘，謝謝主席，我很快，我最後講一個觀念好不好？這次財劃法的修正，沒有讓地方變很有錢啦！大家看一下這個圖，部長，我們各個縣市的自籌財源都非常偏低，大家看一下，真正有一個可以稱為小康的，差不多只有臺北市。它自籌財源的比例多少？57.91%耶！以下的從新北市到臺中這些，有5個是百分之四十幾的，有3個百分之三十幾%的。接下來所有12個縣市，從嘉義市開始，全臺灣喔！22個縣市裡面有12個，它自有的財源都在25%以下，會不會很窮？"],["主席：張啓楷委員，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：所以這次下放的這個錢，由22個縣市去分，只是有些從赤貧變成小貧，小貧變成頂多到小康，中央才是唯一的富豪嘛！大富豪啊！所以不要叫中央已經沒錢，中央從中央政府總預算到國營事業，到基金，六兆多。22個縣市全部加起來，剛好差不多超過1兆而已，6比1耶！現在下放個3,000億就一直在那邊叫，地方好好做不是對中央、對全國都很好嗎？所以我做個結論……"],["主席：啓楷委員……"],["張委員啓楷：第一、不要再叫全國政府沒有辦法做事，你要嘛就舉債，要嘛立法委員幫你把這個預算減列。"],["主席：啓楷委員，我想是不是拜託你，你占用大家太多的時間了。"],["張委員啓楷：更重要的拜託一下，重視我們的地方自治，讓地方可以好好發展，好不好？"],["主席：好，非常謝謝……"],["張委員啓楷：我們照顧所有基層的民眾，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：不要再叫沒錢，錢的問題是可以解決，更重要的是讓地方有自主財源，有長久的計畫，照顧到每個縣市的民眾，謝謝。"],["主席：非常感謝張啓楷委員的發言，接著請陳玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":106,"meet_id":"委員會-11-2-20-13","speakers":["賴惠員","賴士葆","陳菁徽","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","顏寬恒","李坤城","李彥秀","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王世堅","黃健豪","黃珊珊","羅明才","張啓楷","陳玉珍","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-12-25"],"gazette_id":"1141203","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1141203_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「菸酒稅法」 10 案：( 一) 行政院函請審議、本院委員李柏毅等 16 人、委員賴惠員等16\n人、委員郭國文等 18 人、委員吳琪銘等 16 人分別擬具「菸酒稅法部分條文修正草案」等 5 案、\n(二)本院委員徐巧芯等29人擬具「菸酒稅法第十九條條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員賴士葆等\n27人、委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等20人、委員張智倫等18人分別擬具「菸酒稅法第十九\n條及第二十一條條文修正草案」等3案、(四)本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「菸酒稅法第十九條及\n第二十三條條文修正草案」案；二、審查「使用牌照稅法」8案：(一) 行政院函請審議、本院委\n員賴士葆等24人、委員陳菁徽等17人、委員張智倫等18人、委員陳素月等19人、委員賴惠員等17\n人、委員郭國文等16人分別擬具「使用牌照稅法第二十九條、第三十條及第三十一條條文修正草\n案」等7案、(二) 本院委員陳玉珍等19人擬具「使用牌照稅法第三十條及第三十一條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查行政院函請審議、本院委員賴士葆等21人、委員林楚茵等18人、委員徐巧芯等\n27人、委員賴惠員等17人、委員郭國文等17人分別擬具「土地稅法第五十四條條文修正草案」等\n6案；四、審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，關於財政部主管中國\n輸出入銀行、臺灣金融控股股份有限公司（含臺灣銀行股份有限公司、臺銀人壽保險股份有限公\n司、臺銀綜合證券股份有限公司）（僅詢答）","agenda_id":"1141203_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}